Architectural Review Board - Regular Meeting

President? Amanda Barton is not here. Jose Gomez? Here. And Brett Schlachter is not here. Nathan Van Diemen? Here.

We have quorum. Excellent. Pledge of Allegiance.

I pledge allegiance with the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands,

Everybody had a chance to look at the meeting minutes?

Yes, sir.

Okay. Move to approve.

Motion to approve.

Second. All right. All in favor say aye. Aye. With three approvals, meeting minutes have been approved.

Please be advised that the following item on the agenda is quasi-judicial in nature. If you wish to comment upon an item, please inform the chairman when he asks for public input on the item. An opportunity for persons to speak will be made available after the applicant and staff have made their presentations on each item. All testimony, including public testimony and evidence, will be made under oath or affirmation. Additionally, each person who gives testimony may be subject to cross-examination. If you refuse either to be cross-examined or to be sworn, your testimony will be given its due weight. The general public would not be permitted to cross-examine witnesses, but the public may request the Architectural Review Board to ask questions of staff or witnesses on their behalf. Persons representing organizations must present evidence of their authority to speak for their organization. Further details of the quasi-judicial procedures may be obtained from the clerk. At this time, board members, if there are any disclosures, you may disclose now.

None here.

None. And the village commissioner.

All right. And all those who will be providing testimony, please raise your right hand. And do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Thank you.

Very well. Is the applicant for 148 Ball Bay ready? Yes. All right. Building official, want to read the report?

Yes. Good afternoon, everybody. Yes, we received confirmation that they acknowledge the 18 conditions and are in agreeance with it. It is my opinion that the proposed new single-family home for the 148 Ball Bay follows the village appearance code and zoning ordinance, and also the village planning and zoning consultant has reviewed it and has concurred that it complies.

Very well. All clear. So the applicant, we ready to make the PowerPoint active? There we go. All right. Just state your name for the record.

Yes.

Much smaller than this. My name is Anita Pinon. I'm the architect of record working on this project. The design architect is Leo Romano from Brazil. I also have bus construction here as well. The GC will be working on the project. And this project is 148 Balbaie Residence, the half north section of lot 18 and plus lot 19 on block 1. As you can see here in this picture, you can see the location map of where this is, very close to the marina. It's currently an empty lot. The existing home there was demolished previously. And this lot also does have a waterfront as well. So you can see there the waterfront view from the residence. From the back it will have its private pool. The first floor will have 14 and a half tall sliding glass and the second floor will be where most of the private functions of the building will be. Okay, right here you can see the open lot as is currently. Aerial shots from the front and the back as well as the view from the water. Here are the neighboring homes on each side and then as well as in front. And here you can see the design renderings for the project. You can see the context within the neighborhood itself. And you can also see the front and the back. So the front you'll see over there on the right on the top. And the back you'll see on the bottom. So front, what I mean is straight side. Back, I'm saying the waterfront side. And you'll see that the language for the architecture and the project is very similar on all four sides. So it's a very symmetrical building. The concept for this building, it's much more modern contemporary look, but we really wanted to bring in some raw feel to it. So we do have that look of raw concrete. We do have some glass that's mirroring both the greenery on a few sides and then the water really reflecting the water in the sky on the other side. There's a lot of glass in the back as well that really opens up for the owner of the property to open up into the pool. And we also have some specialty smaller pools located to kind of bring in the water from the bay, bring that element into the design of the property as well. Here you can see the site plan. So as you can tell, it's very centered within the site. The entrance will be on 148, the Ball Bay Drive side. And then you can see on the southern side, we do have a driveway with a garage entry on the side as required. We do have some additional spaces and parking on that side as well for any additional guests. This property will be gated and it will have a pedestrian gate and a car gate as well. And in the front we do have some stepping up planters as we are required to raise the property quite a bit for the new female update that just came in. So we will be raising it softly from the street, slowly bringing up the altitude and the elevation to come up to the new ground elevation which will be enclosed by some retaining walls on the property. You can see as well the pool in the back, the walkway out to the dock. There will be a brand new dock. The seawall will also be new as well. And then in the front, you can see the front access for the driveway at the bottom where we have an enclosed trash area completely enclosed on all four sides. except for the portion where you enter. And then on the middle of where the entrance of the house, you can see a separate pedestrian walkway that also includes the mailbox out by the street as requested by the village. And this is the same plan, just in black and white, a little bit more information, more dimensions. You can also kind of see the difference in how our retaining wall will work compared to neighboring houses, making sure that we're not affecting them, as well as you can see in that bottom detail, the switch from the street level up to our level as well. Okay, and then this is the first floor. This is mostly the public area on the first floor. We do have, once you come in, we have a large living room, dining area, and the kitchen as well, as well as some extra public room spaces. There's a spa, there's a video room. On the bottom, we have some server's quarters, or people who are going to be taking care of the property. We also have the garage. It's a one-car garage. The minimum is required by the village. The next floor. Could you hold a second?

Yes. Just to clarify something. Dwight, these joints are available for any neighbor to download in the city portal. So any neighbor that is interested in having the full package being presented here, you could upload it from the Internet. You have the full package available.

Okay. If you give me your email afterwards, I can send it to you. All right.

Yeah, just want to clarify that because I notice you have an interesting pocket.

Yeah, it's kind of hard to see.

Sorry for the interruption.

No problem. Still within the first floor, we do have an overlooking mezzanine onto the first floor. This is at the one-third of the space required of the large base, so it does qualify as a mezzanine. It's more of a secondary presentation space for the client. And then the second floor is where you see more of the private areas. You have all of the bedrooms. There's a smaller family room here for TV as well. And you have the master suite mostly on the waterfront side with a walk-in closet and the master bath. And then this is the roof where we're showing the roof pad for mechanical equipment, completely enclosed, as well as the water tanks will be on its own separate wall as well.

So everything will kind of be joined into one area on this roof.

Here are the elevations of the property. On the top, you can see the front. You'll see most of the materials that we have here. Actually, I can kind of go through the materials right now.

So this is the... Do you need me to speak into the mic for a few? Yes, okay. Let's see if I can pull this out.

Perfect, that works. Okay, he's going to help me move it around. So this is the Tetoni glass. This glass spans up to around 15 feet as per the NOA. So this is the most of the glass that we'll be using on that front first floor that you see down here. Very large spans, all approved by NOA. This is providing that first floor seamless view out to the exterior. And this is mostly seen on the rear where the waterfront property is. So in that bottom image, you can see it there. Are they all sliders, or is it a combination of... All sliders on the first floor. We do have fixed panels, obviously, where they close, right? So when you have them open, they have to land, so that one will be fixed, correct. We do have, as well as that, we have... I don't know if you can show this right there. It's kind of heavy. Okay. This is a driveway stone. It's very heavy. So this is a driveway stone. We picked something that specifically was porous, allowed a lot of drainage in through the driveway, of course. So this is the look and feel of what we're going for. This image kind of shows the patterning that we would like to use. That would be mostly in the driveway. And then, yes, so upstairs, if you see the reflective glass there, that is... So the reflective glass, that's the option that they offer with the NOA. So this would basically reflect some of the exterior, the greenery, reflect some of the sky. And then the framing of that... So if you notice on, hold on. On some portions here, some of that will be operable. So that is the bifold system by UroWall. That's this product right here. So you can see the pivots there as well. It will use the mirror glass, and it will have the same black finish as the Tetoni. Tetoni does not have a bifold that's approved, so we went with UroWall, which we've used on other projects.

This is the second floor?

Yes, correct.

So that's kind of interesting because... That system, which is otherwise known as a nano wall, right?

Yes, nano wall has their own brand as well.

A folding thing. Yes. There's a lot of aluminum in that system, right? Because the panels are only, what, like 40 inches?

Yes, they do have a specific sizing, especially when you're doing a bifold, correct.

So, I mean, just a point, because, you know, the look that you show in your rendering almost looks like it's frameless from the outside, right? It's a different look than what this is really going to give you.

Right.

I'm just saying, you know, you haven't really simulated in the rendering. Maybe that's the Brazilian architect that sort of went minimalistic and doesn't understand that there's going to be a lot of aluminum, so it gives you a different look, I'm just saying. Yes. It's not the same look of this sort of perfect mirror with no aluminum on the outside. Right.

Absolutely, yes. I 100% know exactly what you're talking about, yes. So these open areas, it needs to have the bifold system, and it does have quite a bit of a frame. It's going to have the mirror as well, but the areas where you see that are fixed are going to be the fixed glass that we have here.

On the inside of the system, you have a glass rail system? Correct.

Yes. So this is the glass rail system that you see here. Correct. So it'll be like a Juliet balcony, correct?

Yes, we do.

It's a preliminary detail, but it does show basically how that system would work. The Brazilian design, they love to have the bifolds. I don't know if you've seen a lot of their work. They love the louvered bifolds. We've done another project with them where they did a louvered bifold. In this project, they wanted to implement a glass bifold, but obviously with hurricane ratings and impact, we need to provide everything that is NOA approved, right? So this system needs to be, all the systems provided are NOA approved. This is a preliminary detail, but it's basically showing the concept of them. They're going to have the multi-slide with the railing. The railing is at 36 inches, so it does provide the egress required for each of the bedrooms. And then the bifold will be more of a decorative door, but of course it needs to be the NOA system. So it's quite a hefty system. We're providing the two doors together, but it is part of the design and something that the client wanted as well.

In your line drawing elevations, do you show the extrusions on the, so we can see?

So you can kind of see it at the bottom one there, where you can see where the openings are.

So that is, that's showing where all the extrusions will be?

Right. So this is where you'd see more of the fixed panel, and this is where you'd see the bifolds. It looks like they're open there. Yeah. Right, so you can see the railing through, you can see the system behind. And we did, here you can kind of see it as well. I did try to show some areas that showed it open, right? So you can see that's where you're going to see the thicker frame because this is the bifold system. And on the other end, here you can see it here as well. We have some open. So wherever it says the three and the four, that's where we're showing where that would be open for the bedrooms.

That inverted knife edge canopy, right? Yes. Do you have a detail of that, how you're working that out from, let's say, the way you're applying stucco or the finish system?

Right. So I don't have a detail of that in here just yet. Okay. I do have what the look and feel of it would be. So we're doing like the Surecrete has a product, it's a stampable concrete product. we would be providing a drip edge on the edge to ensure that no water comes through, right? I know it's usually an issue with the eyebrows. But then the actual finish itself would be a shirtcrete applied product. This is a representative of that look. It's going to be like a wood stamped pattern. This one's actually a product, we're not using this one, but it was the look of it would be a stamped rubberized stamp that we use to give the look and feel of the planks.

As you pour it? You're going to stamp it as you pour it?

Yeah, you have to do it as you go, yes.

You've done that before?

Yes, we're doing it now on a project in Hollywood.

Okay. So you're aligning the forms with the stamps.

It's a large form that you use writing. It's a repetitive form, but they have some like four-foot by five-foot ones that you can use and repeat that stamp over and over.

So all the water, of course, that falls in that edge, which is knife edge and sloping, all of that sort of cascades off.

Drip edge. I will have a drip edge on that because I don't want water to creep in. Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's what we did on another project that we're doing right now. We have a similar eyebrow condition. I have a separate molded edge with a drip edge, and then that way the water falls right off the end there and doesn't come into the building.

Got it. Yeah. And then the finish in the underside of those canopies is just stucco?

So that would be for both. So for the underside, I think you can kind of see it here. Let's see. Oh, no, you can't. You can kind of see it there, yeah. So underside and on this side as well. So the whole look is the concrete look.

All the visible surfaces of this.

All of the concrete visible surfaces, right, that are not the glass, that are not, yes.

So these renderings were generated by the design architect? Correct. Okay. Yeah, so just my concern is that because that beautiful mirror-like look, right, that's so kind of poetic and beautiful, it's not what it's really going to look like. I think that we should get stricter here with the representational images of renderings to be as close as possible to simulating the reality of what's going to get built. This is a bit more conceptual in that sense. I mean, it's beautiful, but again, it would be interesting to see it, to be able to see it with the actual folding door system and all the aluminum associated with that, right? It gives you a different look. The glass rail is on the inside of the...

Correct. It's on the inside.

The detail wasn't really clear to me. Yeah. where your glass rail, unfortunately. Right in there.

So you have a multi-slide, you have a glass rail, and then you have the bifold.

Can you show it on the TV where the contrast is better?

Yeah, right here. Just for the record, Dwight, this projector is really washed off.

Yeah, it's harder to see there.

It's kind of useless. The projector is useless.

Yeah, so here you can see this is interior. This is the multi-slide. They're sliding, right? And then you're going to have a rail. Okay. And then we have the bifolds on the outside of that. So we're ensuring in every bedroom that, you know, our railing is at the minimum height of the egress allowed, and that also the handle of the bifold will also be smaller than the egress height.

So just to be clear, you've got sliding system on the inside, okay, and then you've got the shoe.

The railing.

With the railing. Correct. And then on the outside, you have a folding system.

Correct. And the folding system and the sliding system have, in a ways. Yes, they both do.

This is the tony, and this is your wall.

So why the redundancy? Why the sliding system and the other system as well?

So this is a design intent and intent by the client. As I was mentioning, the Brazil design, what we've usually done and what we're doing in another project, this system here would be like a louver, wood louver slats. That's another design they've done. But for this project, they're doing something a little different.

They want to make it glass. It's like a persiana system.

Exactly, like Soleil, right? Boussoleil, right? So on this one, they wanted to do something a little different and do a mirrored glass. The only way to achieve mirrored glass here is with an NOA system. We can't just put, you know, like a stair system.

It seems to show that folding system to also be a glazing system, not a petiziana system.

Correct. This is a glazing system. What I was mentioning was on a different project where we worked with this architect and Brazil designers. What they like typically is this louver slat system. And what they're doing instead on this project is a glass bifold system. So for their design language, they use a lot of bifold. There's another project on Pine Tree Drive that a very well-known Brazil team also did as well with a similar look.

Got it. I'm struck by the fact that these aluminum extrusions will considerably take away from the effect and essentially replicate the extrusion that you would see on the slider anyways. So, like, if it's the repetition of the rectangular form, that's one thing, and when it's open, I really don't think it will have the same effect.

I mean, the big challenge, right, with a Brazilian architect is that he's not used to dealing with all the aluminum that we have to deal with in this environment with a wind factor. Everything is lighter and more fragile and more minimal in Brazil.

Correct.

And I'm afraid that the intention here is going to be kind of catastrophic to the intention. I mean, to use a strong word, right? Catastrophic is a good word? Okay. Do you agree with that word, Mr. Gomez? You haven't spoken yet. You'll have something to say. We're trying to make a judgment on how close the actual build project is going to be to the original intention. We're not questioning the intention. We're just sort of saying that detail based on our experience, both that detail at the bottom of the system and on the top from your rendering it's not like it's not the reality you know i mean i think right so the local architect's responsibility always to make sure that what you're bringing to the board is as accurately represented as possible right i think it's also good for the client to understand you know because you know you don't want to be disappointed here now you gotta you gotta coordinate the frame system right, the width of the glass sliding system with a folding system, and that is kind of difficult because they have different criteria.

Correct, yeah.

Typically the sliding panels are allowed to be wider, for example, than your nano wall or folding wall system. So then when you see that, right, when you see the layering of that, I think it could be kind of disappointing, you know, to what was actually intended, right? And the house is all about this. I mean, this house is kind of about these details, right? That's why I'm kind of disappointed that you didn't take the detail all the way to the edge. How does it drip? What are the thicknesses? You know, all these things should be a requirement to have a satisfactory submittal for the Board of Architects. It should be rejected by the building official. if it doesn't have adequate representation of these kinds of details, because at the end of the day, that's what makes the architecture, right? So I know that's a tough one, Mr. Building Official, but, you know, I mean, if we're going to really look at something that is design intention and execution and all that, I think the packages need to be as complete as possible. in my personal opinion. So, yeah, so I guess I've stated enough about this. Do you have more in your presentation you want to share, or you want to just go into feedback from the board?

No, I would love to hear some feedback, actually.

Okay. Yeah. Actually, I'd like to see more on the site. Sure. Just continue through the site plan and the landscape plan and some other things. Sure.

So the roofing system is going to be like a fluid-applied system on this? Correct, yeah.

Yes, you can go forward, right? You want to see here. So these are the civil plans. Okay. Okay. You can see here all the civil information, the exfiltration trenches provided on each of the sides over here, as well as all the new and old elevations for the property. More information here on the utilities and their information on where they're located. And in landscape, you're going to see this is the new landscape design.

Hold it for a second. Let us enjoy it because it's important. So this is all new trees, right? Nothing existing?

Yes. The only one I believe that they're keeping is back here. Yeah, these down here.

So on the side, again, these images are kind of washed off on the screen.

Yeah, I don't know if you can see it better.

That screen is really far away. Oh. Yeah, there you go.

This is awesome. What are you looking for?

Just what is your paving system on that side where you have cars parked? That's the paving system. Yep, correct. I see. So that's, you know, like if you have an event, that's where everybody's going to come and park.

Correct, yes.

So there's a concern in the village about sort of overflow parking.

Yeah.

In the streets.

Right, and I think it's only three required, but we said, no, we need more than just three. Yeah. So we added some additional spaces.

And then where's your garage there?

The garage is right there in the middle. You can kind of see the parking space there.

A one-car garage? Yes, a one-car. Is that a Brazilian thing?

It's his exhibition car garage. One of the fancy car goes in there.

One car gets inside, everybody else outside, all right?

Yes.

I mean, there's no minimum parking requirement within the house in the code. A single car does it, yeah. That's the one lucky car. Yeah, all right. I'm sure it's for the lady of the house. Okay, so then that's your ground floor. Just trying to understand the relationship between, you know, indoor, the terraces.

Mm-hmm.

The terraces really are protected by that canopy, right?

Yeah, so you can see the dash line. It shows the outside of the eyebrows there. So a majority of what's shown as the outdoor there is covered by the eyebrow, except for the driveway and some areas out by the pool.

That's not true on the front, though, right? Because of the step back?

Yeah, so we actually stepped back the building to be able to put some of that eyebrow further out. Okay.

Yeah.

And remember, the first floor is actually smaller than the second floor. So the second floor is actually to the setbacks. So what you're seeing here, if you'll notice, so this is the first floor here, if you'll notice. The second floor is actually the larger setback side. The first floor is not. The first floor is inwards.

Can you show that side elevation just so I can understand the massing of those two floors? Yes.

Okay. Yeah, so you see there?

That's the front and back, though, right?

Yes, front and back, and then the sides. It's pretty symmetrical.

You have a section that shows that relationship with the mezzanine between the ground level and the second level. Yes. It would be good to take a look at that. Sure.

So what the architect designed was that they really wanted...

So you don't have a section?

Oh, a section cut through. No, no, no, we don't have a section cut.

That kind of shows the ceiling heights and how...

I mean, I don't have one in this presentation. We do have one that we've worked on since. But the idea is that really the entire first floor is from that floor there until the bottom of that eyebrow. What you're seeing is the glass is kind of that large living space in the middle, really giving like an overhead lighting and open lighting to that area. And that's so the mezzanine at least sits a little lower than that, just so that, you know, the window is kind of at the top portion of that mezzanine. Yeah.

Yeah, it would be nice to be able to explain that with a real section. Because it's kind of interesting, this idea of a mezzanine between the ground level, second level. How does that work and still get your AC ductwork distribution, all these other things that have to happen in these houses?

Yes, we have a large chase by the elevator and the stair.

I'm feeling like this is a Penn & Teller show. I think it's probably architecturally for the architectural design value since I've been in the board and it's been I think two years now. It's probably one of the most exciting looking houses. Now, what comes along with that is a harsh review. You're proposing something that theoretically is fantastic. However, you're not showing us that this can be done. I know that you have anyways. However, your design clearly is not going to look like this. I don't understand some of the sections because you provide a very little detail. That one detail actually doesn't match your elevations. If you look at the glass, it protrudes out from the slab probably about two feet if I'm, you know, just looking at it. When you go to your detail, you're only protruding out six inches.

Okay.

Now, that's a big deal because when I look at this, this is – Great. Architecturally, I'm looking at something and I'm like, wow. I'd love to see that house built. However, I just don't see you being able to build what you're showing me with the elevations. It's just impossible. I'm actually, with all due respect, I'm building a very similar house for Ricardo Bofill at 44 Star Island with... That basic design, the long cantilevers, if you drive by MacArthur Causeway, you can see it under construction. Very heavy concrete, eyebrows and so on and so on. So the spirit is kind of similar in a way.

Right.

You added some really beautiful details.

Yes.

And I don't see those details anymore. truly happening. You see this, especially when you have these folding doors, you're not gonna get this. And I know that this is doable. You could do it if you wanted to. There's plenty of houses, I'm sure you've seen some of the, especially out on the West Coast, with a very, very reflective glass, and you just see a system that is very, very narrow, and you can get this. This, what we're seeing here, those folding doors are not going to give you that. So there's a number of details that I find that we need to see, a cross-section to show you how that mezzanine works. That mezzanine right now in concept is there as architects. I think we can all read that the mezzanine is there. However, how do you really – how does that really work when you have a roof over the first floor? Is that, you know, an area that anybody can access? You know, what happens with that whole – deck there. So a cross-section would be very, very helpful.

Absolutely.

So today, I love the project. And I would be tempted to say, you know, go for it. But I think there's a lot of things missing that, you know, just like Rinaldo said, I I would love to see those details. I'd love to see something more realistic, more 3D views, perhaps one for each corner, so that then you can really tell. It was difficult to understand, I believe it's your north elevation. It's very difficult to understand the north elevation. Even with good drawings and a good screen and so on, you try to see it. So, to me... I love the design, but I think it's lacking a little more information that we can all feel comfortable and say, wow, that's going to be built. Okay, perfect. Based on that design.

Yes. I think like you said originally, the burden of producing something like this conceptually as a design concept is How are you going to detail it and execute it in this very restrictive environment that we have? You know, like when Roman Foster, any of these distinguished architects come here, you need like a window wall consultant to really do a one-time engineering and so on to accomplish some of these things.

Right.

You guys separately NOA systems that are trying to perform together. I would like to see how they perform together. you know, in terms, again, the width of the panels of the sliding system versus the width of the panels of the folding system because it's two different things, right?

Yes, correct.

It ends up having a lot of aluminum, right, considering, you know, the sliding system. So it would be good to understand that just because I think that, you know, we would be offering you some quality control review with the best intentions, right, because, you know, at the end of the day, It's all about that in this house. It's so minimal, so clean, so conceptually almost perfect. But I think it would be nice to be able to see it with that level of detailing, which I'm sure you've got to get to that level of detailing anyways for somebody to build this house. Of course. I'm not asking you to do something that is not really going to be necessary. I think it's super necessary. That's always the challenge of local architect dealing with. you know, a foreign architect to make sure that, you know, you're translating that intention into something that we know is going to be successful, no? Because otherwise it could be a disaster and it went through the board and we approved it and we don't really know what's the final effect, right? But, you know, for us, I mean, because, you know, all these knife-fetched canopies is something that we're all trying to do and we have to troubleshoot them a lot because, you know, Stucco is not happy typically in those surfaces. I don't know how you stamp canopy that you're forming up there with a stamping system. I'm not really sure how that really works. Give you a finished product, right? Without any kind of additional finishes. We are seeing now canopies like this being cladded in stone, which is another challenge.

Right.

Clips and, yeah. It's fascinating how that loads and how you inspect that through time, right? Yep. You're not proposing stone cladding.

No.

But I think, yeah, it's a beautiful project. I think we're tending to feel like, you know, we're going to get this thing approved, but we would love to see the detailing and for you to come back to see the detailing. You know, and I think, you know, You've got to take it to the next level, right? I mean, do we agree on that? Yeah, I agree.

Sure. I think I'm just concerned. I'm sorry.

I'm just concerned that this incredible house, because I think it's incredible. I think it's great. I especially love those details, like when you zoom in there and you see that the way the glass is being kind of levered out about, you know, a couple of feet.

Yeah.

And then when they move through, how do they do that? And then I look at the detail that you provided, and it's not that. It's actually a little six-inch reveal at the bottom. Right. So those are, you know, it's amazing that you see that glass box that is sort of floating. It's not even touching the slab on the top and in the bottom.

Right.

Which is fantastic. The typical detail is bring the glass from floor to ceiling.

Mm-hmm.

Those details are what makes this house special. But I want to be able to see that, yes, you're, you know, at the end, this house will look like that because I'm all for it. I love to see that house built. But if it's going to be built and it's not going to look like this, then what are we approving? What am I excited about? So I, you know, to me, it needs a little more attention to the detail. Not really technically. You don't need to come with shop drawings on how you built this because I think we know that all those products have NOA. The problem is drawing those products into the real project. Right. Then understanding that the look is really not that.

Right. So I'd reiterate everything that these two have just said. But I think a lot of our hang-up is we are a discretionary, aesthetic review board. What we're seeing being sold and what we know will be delivered is vastly different, like 30%, 40% variation. So I think we're all hedging our statements and maybe sugarcoating them a little bit because we see the potential for this to be great, and we know the constraints that you guys are operating within. Yes. But I think if you were – you could take it two directions. You could try to do the most excellent version that matches the design intent, or you could do the more pragmatic version and show us something that's realistic.

Right.

I think that would –

At this stage of your process, you're in schematics?

Yes. Well, we've passed a bit of schematics, but schematics is complete, yes.

I think what we're asking you to do is maybe do some design development detailing.

Yeah.

And come back, you know, for us to review that. I mean, you're not losing time because you've got to do that anyway.

Correct, yeah.

I see that we're tending to just say approve, but, you know, I think it would be irresponsible of our board to just say we trust you.

Yeah.

because we have no idea if you're going to succeed at this at this point, based on what we see.

Right. Have you worked yet with the structural engineer?

Yes. So we did actually include them on this, especially since we're limited by height. In order to get all the heights required, especially for that mezzanine area, we did actually have them discuss with us all of our slabs, all of our floor plates, and what we would require, including areas for AC to run through, electrical, everything else, plumbing. Very important for us because I had the design team come back and forth a few times, like minimize the height, you know, give us room. We need space for the, you know, the eyebrow detail at the top. I need a parapet. I need roofing. I need all of this. So that was included as well when we discussed all the changes here.

The reason I'm bringing it up, just you have a house that is, I don't know, 100 feet by 100 feet. It's a very large house.

Yes.

And I only see perimeter columns.

Yes.

And you have a donut cut out in the center. Right. And I don't see columns inside the house. And I'm like. Again, I'm nitpicking, but I want to make sure, I really love the project. I wish I could say, go for it today. But on the other side, I'm feeling like, come on, if we tell them go for it, we're going to see one of those houses that we approve all the time, and later on they're like a total disappointment. And I think this one has incredible potential. If you could just look at it a little further and and refine it a little bit and tell us, yes, this is how it would work, I feel very comfortable saying go for it. Absolutely.

Do you have a generator on the site?

Yeah, we have a place for it here as well.

Ground level?

Yes. And it's within the setback, so it's on the top there. And it's covered by landscape. This was discussed with, we had asked prior to show it as well because we. Oh, it's on that side. It's on that side, right.

The north side.

Correct.

What's with the curved pieces by the entrance? They appear in some drawings and in others they don't. You see those half moon right by the door?

Yeah, that was a prior door. The designer had wanted to do a revolving door at some point, but there's absolutely no way to get that approved. There's no runaway. There's no Florida approval. The only way to prove that would be to close it with a drop-down screen, which would completely change the look and appearance. So we had them change it to a pivot door.

Yeah. So, I mean, this section is so important because, you know, it will give us an insight on how – You transition from ceilings to what appears to be floor-to-floor glass. You know, how does that look? I mean, all of that will affect the final impact of this approach. Yeah. That mezzanine, I still don't get it. I guess the only way to understand it is to see a section and see, I mean, is it habitable mezzanine or is it just like a crawl area? I mean, I'm not getting it, right, because I can't even see the floor-to-floors and everything. Maximum height is to the primary roof, right? Yes. And then there's an allowable encroachment into that height for mechanical enclosure up to five feet. And that's kind of what you're doing. You got five feet of that looper screening system on the roof?

Yeah. I have about four foot eight.

And then, you know, most of the times you need to allow access to that roof for maintenance. Yes. Right, Mr. Building Official? Isn't that required? So in this case, could they have like an access hatch from the inside of the house to go up to the roof? I mean, I don't know what your plans are.

It would have to be an access hatch to the roof, correct.

Okay. Okay.

Because you can't really climb over the eyebrow side.

Let me ask you another one. It was really the first thing that I noticed when I was reviewing the house. Sure. And you have these three layers, this system, the folding doors, the sliding doors, and your railing, which is a lot.

Yes, it is.

So to me, the way I read it, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that your folding door system has no NOA possible. to cover this, and then you have to put a sliding door inside. Because why would you put folding doors if you already have sliding glass doors?

No, yeah, the bifold does have the NOA rating.

Then I'm not understanding why the sliding glass door. Because if you have NOAs with the folding doors, right, when you have it closed, you're protecting the house.

Yes.

When you open it up, means that you have to open your sliding glass doors.

Right.

So now you have to open a completely – I don't understand the rationale.

I think the way that the designer typically looks at the louvers is the louver is more of a decorative item for them. Sorry, I meant by folding. When they usually do the by-fold, it's usually a louver that they do. In this case, they're doing glass, right? So for them, that's more of a decorative item. That's an item that you can leave open, and then if you want the air to come in, you can open the slider and have air to come in, but you can close the slider and still leave it open.

But in this case, they're not louvers. It's glass. It's the same.

I meant bifold instead of the one. Right.

What I'm saying is, you know, I'm being, now I'm being a little subjective because if they want to put five layers, that's up to them, right? So, but it just, I don't find the rationale because you have folding doors. If your folding doors have NOA, you open it or you close them. That's what they're meant for. Right. Their sliding glass door,

It's a secondary door. It doesn't serve a purpose once those doors are closed.

I was just saying, could you share the reasoning?

Yeah, the reasoning is that they like the look of the bifolds open so that you can leave them open and that you can still have coverage from the outside. So they like the idea of the variety of the facade basically shifting and changing.

They like the idea that you could fold it, leave it open, and still have a layer of protection.

Of protection from the exterior, right.

That's the idea. That's right.

It's the same concept they have when you come to the bifolds that are slatted, right?

It's the same concept. Functionally, they're different, right? Functionally, it works differently. They function as a brisele or something that's catching and reflecting the heat, so it's lighter inside, and you can adjust the amount of light into the space.

Correct.

You change it to glass, and you have glass on glass, and now all you've done is, like, you've replicated that kind of origami effect that I think – Kind of falls short.

I don't think that's something that is going to go against you. Because if you want to have five layers, as I said before, of course, that's up to you guys. So it's not going to change the way I think about the house. Because then that's just how you're building the house. We're concerned about the look of the design, right?

So that's what you want. Those corners have no aluminum. There's nothing there. This system, there's going to be some aluminum in those corners. Right.

So it seems likely that this will be not approved or approved with conditions. So knowing that you guys are going to be going back to the drawing board, I want to talk about the reflective finish on that glass. Yes. Even in New York and more temperate climates, that actually adds a lot of heat to the space. In one of your elevations or your front perspective, it looks like that top eyebrow is actually set back versus the bottom one. So the purpose of that is to reduce the amount of heat load on that surface. Mm-hmm. And you don't have that. Like you have the glass nearly, you know, maybe a foot or six inches from the overhang, from the eyebrow. So up until noon, effectively, that front service is going to be putting a lot of sun down in the front area. And on the south side, in the winter sun, you're going to have a ton of heat coming into that drive area.

Right. Can you explain to me where you're talking about here?

One of your first renderings, you show all the way in the front when you have your hero shots. So this one, maybe I'm misunderstanding it, looks like on the front you have a different condition than the bottom. Like you have a very large eyebrow on the bottom, or on the rear, on the top, and on the front it looks like a smaller version of it, right?

Yeah, I think it's just the angle. It's going to be equal all the way around, just for that concern at least. But I can make the angle look more correct according to, so that it doesn't look like that by mistake.

So I guess as you're revisiting this, in light of all the critique and the concern and the disconnect between the design intent and the reality, I would look at maybe revisiting the louver, like the wood louver system, because that gets you away from the redundancy of having two envelopes I'm not suggesting that you have to do it. I just think as you guys are revisiting it, like the intent and the beauty of that is the kind of Brisele effect.

Yeah. Yeah, which is what they're actually doing on some of the other projects we're working on them with. So, yeah, you know, as you may or may not know, finding the glass like this with no frame is – basically impossible, right? So trying to adjust as much as possible to what they're showing and the idea of the mirror and what they want to show on the bifold. To Tony, which has one of the slimmest frames, as well as the URL sliding, they have those frames for the fixed version as well, but they don't have it for a bifold. So I see your concerns, and I think they're valid, and I think that this is something that I can also bring back to the designer as well, for them to really rethink the look because they did have the wood louver slats at some point and they changed it, right? So that's where it causes some of these concerns where they don't understand that here the glass has its own system, which, you know, I've explained to them, but they might not think of it as important, but it is quite important. So I can definitely bring this back to them.

I think a concern would also be the glass spec on the sliding system versus the glass spec on the folding system. Are you intending that to be the same spec?

So Titone has the sliding glass. They have the thinner frames. They don't have a bifold system that's approved.

Right, but the glass and a sliding system...

The finish of the glass will be the same, yes.

So it will both be a reflective...

They both have the solar-cooled reflective bronze glass.

Is it low-E?

Yes.

But they both have the same glass finish, but they don't have the same frame. So they can provide the same look.

So maybe the effect, like, I know there's been comments about it compromises the NOA if you add any sort of vinyl, whatever. But if the intent originally of that aesthetic that you're trying to replicate is the shading effect and that you have the ability to fine-tune the amount of light coming in through those surfaces, if on the interior side there was a tinted film or something, so you had the full light open option or you had the closed option, I think maybe I would buy that. But right now it just seems like you have a system and you have the exact same system with a different format right behind it.

Mm-hmm. So the challenge in asking you to come back, right, is, like Jose said, this is a very nice design intention. We're not sure that the intention is going to be followed through based on all these comments that we've given you. So it's kind of weird because we've approved projects that are not as interesting as this.

Yeah.

First time around.

Yeah. This is complicated. This is complicated.

I mean, and again, I think you're going to have to do all this work anyways. Yeah. So it would be nice, I think, as we say, okay, come back to us to give you that chance to kind of come back and articulate a lot of these things better for us.

Absolutely.

I think that would be one of the conditions that I would put on this. And do we have any comments from neighbors?

I emailed you. You should have your emails. One from Nickelodeon that's extensive. Do you want me to read it? Well, if she takes the time to communicate with us, might as well give... This is from Nika Logan, 64 Camden Drive. Okay. She says, two stories is just that, two levels. This is not a two-story home. It's a three-level home. First floor mezzanine and second floor are clear. There are three levels in the roofline. Why is the parking deck in the setback? Actually, why is anything in the setback? There's no vegetation to limit the line of sight, reduce the noise from the very active side of the home of the south side. Straight line of the site from the street all the way through the entire parking deck. Although they show a garage with a 12-foot, let me get my cursor, 12-foot wide car, the giant SUV even can drive. A giant SUV even make the turning radius in and out. This is an eight-bedroom home, so they are counting for five spots. Really, they can only park three cars in the driveway garage. Where is everyone else parking? There's no room on the street. On the south side of the home, there's virtually no, then it says the top of the roof slides in at 44.17 feet, but the equipment on the top of the roof exceeds the height limit and is 48.84 feet. The windows on the house appear to have mirror finish. Last thing we need is to be blinded by an enormous property. Plus, they are going to have a surrounded LED lighting More of the same.

Is there lighting integrated? Happy with the trash cans. So you can make this available to the architect?

I can email it to you.

Yes, that would be great.

I also emailed it to you, so if you didn't want to.

I mean, so this resident really pays a lot of attention, has a lot of sensibilities and all that. concerns typically are the same, you know, and she's consistent. She just wants a better project. I think, you know, the point about this being a three-story house, I mean, by definition, it is not, right? By building code and zoning definition, it is not.

By the height, it's not a three-story, and the way it's designed by where it was explained to Mike Miller, that was that common originally by me and by also my AR consultant, the zoning consultant, and they were able to move it around and show it that it's not it's a mezzanine it's not a floor it's a mezzanine and there's other houses here that have that mezzanine

But it's the mezzanine, 30% of them.

So just to clarify, you're saying per your review it does not violate any of the zoning requirements?

By Mike Miller's review and by the building code, it does not represent as a floor. It could be actually a mezzanine. And then the way that Mike Miller was explained and the way that they were able to portray it, it's not a floor. It's a mezzanine. Yeah, so...

Just by looking at it, just getting a sense of it, it looks like it's less than 30% of the floor below. And that's what the Florida Building Code will consider. And if it goes above 30%, but I'm just looking at it, they do the math.

Basically, if you go to page 201B, as in Boyd, That's where the mezzanine is. And the mezzanine, if you see the actual center, it's all open.

The rectangle.

Only the game room. The green room and those two bathrooms and the hallway is the only thing that's a mezzanine.

So it might very well be a mezzanine, and if it's a mezzanine, you have all the right. It's not a three-story home.

That's the point.

To me, as long as it meets the 30%, and that's your baby. That's what we need.

The four walls containing that mezzanine are solid.

No, those are glass. Those are glass, as you see in the image.

That's a glazing system.

Yeah, that's a fixed glazing system.

They look like a glazing system. Yeah. What was shown that it was not, because originally, the original version, it showed like it was three floors.

Right. It looked very tall, and I made them cut down a lot.

But it looked like an actual three floors. Yes. Then when they put that glass that looks like a mirror, and they join them together, then it's the two floors.

Right. Right. Right, so I had that concern with the designer as well, and I was like, look, this cannot even look like a three-story, right? So what we did is we really shrunk that interior. I don't know if I can move back and forward here. Yeah. Here we go. So I really shrunk that portion down, and I think I have the dimension here somewhere. Yeah, it's about four feet in there. I think it's dark, so I can't see it. But the area in there, it's a little less than four feet, so it's not really a floor. It's more like a window above that looks down into that room.

Yeah, so look, eventually we're going to have a section that explains this. Yeah.

I think a section would be very helpful in understanding how that works, yeah.

And also, you know, we would like to kind of see the way the structure really performs because there seem to be a few columns missing to support all these layers of concrete, flooring, and so on. But, yeah, I mean, so it's an amazing project, and I think we could take a vote and see where we are. Got to open it up to public comment as well.

Just, I know you did online, but if anybody in person.

Public comments, yes, indeed. Yes, anyone in the public that wants to speak?

Yeah.

Just state your name and I suppose your address as well.

My name is Robert Monshine, and I live at 134 Baobai Drive, which is the property directly adjacent and south of this very nice looking project. But I do have some questions which I wanted to raise, and hopefully can get some responses from the board of the building people. Will there be a security fence along the property of extra height between my property and the new property? As far as parking is concerned, I really don't want construction vehicles in front of my home. We have a lot of deliveries and other things, and we'd rather that we not have to deal with that. As far as the property is concerned, and as far as the setbacks are concerned, will there be shadows from this building that would encroach on my home? Importantly, in terms of the pilings that are used on this project, Are they going to be pile-driven or auger pilings? You know, whether we'll need some sort of a vibration engineering study prior to the start of this construction. I assume daily cleanup of the project. No site debris. Discarded food and other... items from construction workers. The actual seawall which you're building or you're putting in a new seawall, is it going to be the same height or a different height than what's already there? And regarding a water barrier during construction and permanently to prevent runoff, from this property, which is going to be elevated, to my, which is an older property. Those are the things that I would like to have addressed.

Okay, so we have your concern about a security fence. Is there all around like a five-foot fence? I think five feet is the maximum, right? Yeah, so you have a section showing that there is a wall all the way around the perimeter. So, yeah.

Top two details on the left side. Yeah. Down from there.

Pan down. There you go. Yeah.

Right, so that answers the security fence question. Then on the parking side, your concern is the day-to-day parking or like say when Amazon shows up with their truck to deliver a package, where do they park? Park on the street, typically. Okay. So I don't know if the architect wants to...

In that regard, we have an ordinance, number 2023-653. It's on the plans also, just to make sure that it's being followed. And we will have a pre-construction meeting before we actually give them the permit. Our police department, our court enforcement, public works, building department, and utilities will all be part of that meeting. And all those worries that you have, they'll be addressed. They can only park in front of their property and within their property. They cannot park in nobody else's property. If not, there's a parking agreement that they go and park on all over they park there and a bus that the association has acquired or has a contract with comes around and brings the workers in and takes them out in that manner. We understand that the other projects in the same Baobai area that were permitted basically before 2023 did not have that requirement, but everything after that has that requirement of the pre-construction meeting and maintaining The cleanliness of the site, the grooming of the site, the workers within their site to lunch, change, and arrive and leave within their site. If not, code enforcement will issue them citations and also police gives them tickets if the vehicles are parked anywhere else except in front of their property. And it's even noted on their plans on that same page. No, page 101. On the bottom of that comment in the middle, that's that section of the ordinance for it could be followed and complied with. And when they submit the set of plans, they will have that note also. And the other regards about the pilings. The pilings, they're no longer used for compaction pilings. They're auger piles. And auger piles is basically a drill that drills into the earth and drops in the steel so there's no impact to the adjoining neighbors and the adjoining property.

I'm not an engineer or an architect, but are you telling me that with this type of piling system and the vibration that occurs with that, That there's absolutely no threat to my home? Are you saying that?

Yes. I'm basically minimal to none vibration is the type of piles that they used here in the shops. And all those houses next to yours, like 56 Ball Bay, the one in 84 Ball Bay, all of those houses have that same method of construction and piling system. And all the houses inside the Gideon community all have that. The other option that they have, especially for the fence, sometimes they don't use auger piles. They use what is called a helical pile. That is basically a pile with a bit in front of it. It's a steel pile with a bit, and basically it's driven in, but not driven. It's drilled into the dirt that does not have impact to the adjoining neighbors. Those are the only piles that, once they come for permitting, will be allowed.

The sheet piles for the seawall, those are not impact driven?

Basically those are also, they don't, there's various methods that they do it. Usually they do king piles and there's another pile that they drive but into the water, not into the land. And then those, then they put a big cap on top. The maximum height of the seawall will be the height that we have in the park next door. So because eventually, little by little, all the new constructions, when they do the seawall, they need to raise up the seawall to the levels for FEMA requirements. to be more safe for the residents. Same as Indian Creek also passed an ordinance requiring all the properties to raise up their seawall. Here we haven't gotten through that process to get the ordinance done, but we're going through the process. We have a consultant that is doing that evaluation and that will be something that will be forthcoming in the few next months.

Just to pick up on this one point though, for pilings that are put in for the for the seawall and the dock, those are, how are those put in? Are those the same method?

Not the same method, but they don't do no impact to the adjoining properties because they're driven but into the water side, not into the land side.

Sounds like it's going into the ground one way or the other.

Yeah, but it has less vibration when they do that, and it's a different method. It's a different method of driving.

If your soil is here and the water is here, this is coming.

On this side. 88 Ball Bay has also piles that are being driven in the back for the seawall. And you probably haven't noticed none of that vibration because there's no vibration to it. And they do it from a platoon boat from the outside and not from the land to the water.

All right, then you got a shadow question about, you're on the south side, right? Yeah. So I don't know if you want to make a statement about shadows. Yeah, yeah, from the south, the sun comes usually from the south side, so mostly the shadows will be provided.

Yeah, so you'll have no shadows. Your house is covered.

So in the summertime. Not at the height of this thing, it's almost three stories high, come on.

The sun comes in from the south, so the shadows.

Yeah, but I have a sense. Oh, I'd like to see the final renderings. But how this thing extends over is, you know, is that up to?

The sun comes out of the east, sets on the west. That's pretty good. Always in a solidly direction. So your house is the one that will create a shadow. Air property.

Yeah.

If you had a tall building, you would create a shadow on us. The shadow basically will come in with us, right?

Good enough.

And I think also the design increased the setback, right, from what's required, right? So you've got increased setbacks. So as per zoning, every foot that we come in, we have to go up.

Right.

So, I'm sorry, every foot we go up, we have to come in.

Right.

So this is actually the normal setback right here. Right there, yeah.

We are way in.

So to avoid the wedding cake effect, basically you did the second story setback all the way down. Exactly. Zoning already covered that. Yeah. Yeah, so drainage, in terms of the way the site drains, your civil engineer has designed this thing to meet all the codes, basically water retention on site. You have retaining walls that really don't allow water from this site to go into your property. So it should all be good, except in a storm surge, Category 6 event. I hope you evacuate. There should be some water. All right. You're satisfied with the...

So far, thank you. Okay. We're going to ask you to review this again.

Well, so, yeah, we're going to take a vote and articulate our suggestion of moving forward in one way or another. Okay. Thank you. So we're done with public comments. So now further, any other questions that we have? We're good. We made all our comments. So if I were to state that we're going to be not voting to approve, we're going to ask the applicant to come back as soon as they can with further detailing and articulation to the concern of Sort of the edge canopy system, the integration of the slider versus the folding doors. I mean, that's kind of weird. I think you need to study that a little bit more, which I think is going to benefit the quality of the project anyways. Right. And I'm sure you're going to do that anyways. And I know sometimes you kind of press for time to kind of bring it to us or we vote and then you could go into construction documents and. and get a permit and build it. So I think we're just asking, okay, we want to participate in that process a little bit further than just today's presentation. So we'll be asking you to come back as soon as you can, whether it's next month or the following month, as soon as you're ready, right? You've got to do this work anyways, and we know it's detailed work. So is that statement adequate? Anybody want to put anything else in the record?

Well, I just want to make sure that a – A clear section is cut north-south and east-west so that we can really tell what's going on with the mezzanine, what goes above your elevator. You most likely are going to have an elevator over right. You're showing the equipment, but I'm not sure about... I didn't see the elevator over right, and I think in the section you would clearly show that. So if you could cut one north-south and one east-west, really would go a long way. And then the little details that you might think or someone might think are small are very powerful to your design. So if you could just bring them out, I would be glad to see this home. This is an excellent home. Excellent house.

Okay.

Ms. Attorney, do you have any further comments? Do we need to clarify anything more?

Just a clarification on what the action you're taking today would be a motion to defer. And so the applicant is, I think, crystal clear from all the comments that you all have provided. And they'll revise their application and come back on the agenda. But you do need to take an action. That action would be to defer this item. Okay.

And we have to put conditions, specific conditions for all the items to address or the discussion is sufficient?

The discussion is sufficient in the sense that you're not really taking an actual item. Conditions would be more appropriate if we were conditioning an approval on something. In this case, it's a deferral, but you've given more than enough feedback for the applicant to kind of gather what would be needed for your approval when they come back.

And I know we've discussed about the deliverables for these packages before. It would be nice to always require more detailed external renderings and just sort of these sort of global renderings where you're standing 80 feet away from the house and that's what we get. It would be nice to be able to get into the entry area, the terraces, kind of feel the way the building behaves at that level with some additional renderings.

This house has a lot of really nice volumes that we're not seeing because we're seeing it all flat. But really, if you look at the entry area that is recessed, and then you have a change of materials that sort of wraps around on at least one side, I'm not sure if on both sides, And then it becomes glass again. Those details, we're not seeing them. A nice three-dimensional. Nothing negative about the project, believe me. I'm just hoping that your project turns out to keep on repeating myself to what I see here.

Yeah, if I may say anything, it is a very complex project, so all these details definitely matter. I really appreciate all of the feedback. I think it's going to help make it even better. I do just want to ensure, you know, if we do come across, you know, the designer will have to make a decision at some point, whether they keep that glass at the top or they change to, like, a louver slat system, like we're saying. I just want to make sure, like, if we do bring back a slat system, like, is that something that would still appeal to the board? Yeah.

I think it's a discretionary thing. So we are trying to provide an academic aesthetic review for your discretion. Correct. So it's up to you guys, and we get the final stamp of approval or go back to the drawing board.

Correct.

I don't see any issue with that. We've seen a lot of other projects that have been approved with the louvered, the slotted system in lieu of the glass. But it's really at your discretion. We can't make that call.

Correct. The designer will make the call at the end of the day, but I just want them to be sure, hey, if we're going with this glass, this is what the system will say with the glass. And I've had that discussion with them before. But I do want to give you guys as much detail as possible so that you fully understand how it's working. And I would love to bring that back.

I want to repeat it again. I'm not asking for you to come with an engineering set of documents. I hope you understand that. I'm asking you to be able to be more realistic to the architectural design. You and I and all of us here know that the system that you're drawing is not going to give you that look that they want. So if that's what they want, More power to them. Just find a way of doing it.

Right.

If it exists. I don't have a problem with that. I think it's great. But it's just not going to happen today. Right. Yeah. Right.

No, yeah, we will show it as accurately as possible with the sizing of the framing as well, just to make that bit more clear.

We would like to have a full-scale mock-up.

Can we have that? We'll do that soon. Full-scale will be soon.

This house is that important, okay? Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. So we're going to move to defer. As soon as you get back, you're going to need some time, and now you've got the holidays and so on. So I don't know if you're back for January or February. I mean, you've got to do this work anyway. So, I mean, we're tending to say yes. But we're saying we want to participate a little bit more with you and understand how you're detailing and sort of things getting recalibrated and aligned and so on. And I think that's a deferment, no condition. I mean, it's just to come back with more detail.

Well, it'll be a motion to defer with the applicant. Before it comes back, the applicant will take into consideration everything you've said. Yes. So given it some time.

No further ado? Yeah. I motion to defer.

Okay. Is there a second? Second. Okay. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. So we're on track. Thank you. Appreciate your patience with us today. And you're welcome to download the full package from the city portal as well so you have everything that... you care to see. Thank you so much. And we will meet again in January, right?

Yeah, well, that's what I want to talk about right now. We normally have it the first Thursday of the month, which is January 1. So we need to choose another date. So we're all here. I mean, we're missing two. So I don't know if you want to choose now or you want me to do... You'll do the second Thursday?

Second Thursday is the 8th.

Yes. I'm fine with that. So January 8th will be our next. Are you fine with it if she can't make it? Yeah. Okay.

All right. So our next meeting.

Is that okay with you? Yeah. Okay.

Well, she doesn't have to come back for the 8th. She's going to work through Christmas with a lot of details, it seems.

We're all working holidays.

But, yeah, I think the house will benefit from that extra level that will give you more feedback once we see that. But it will be good to redo those renderings, trying to simulate your glazing system as accurately as possible. That will be wonderful. So thank you.

Public comments?

More public comments?

We have to open it up. We have to allow it. Oh, for the normal public comment, but if there's anyone else who has comments.

Yeah, we did the public comments.

No, that's for the items. Before you stop, we have to open. Yeah.

The general public comment. General public comment.

General public, okay. All right, so we're good. All right, meeting adjourned? Good? All right, happy holidays to everyone.

Thank you. You too.

And we'll be back January 8th.

This is going to be a simple item. Thank you for your time. Thank you for presenting.

Thank you.

I think you can tell we're all kind of edging and we hate to...

It's a very complicated problem. We've gone through so many issues already. It's all intercepted.

Does the owner recognize there's going to be that .

Yeah, so the owner has only seen a lot of the images and will provide us with a sample material soon. But I don't know if they put it together, so it would be great for them to see the reality of the image and the rendering as well.

That's a little bit of our role here, too. Yeah. No, I really appreciate your comment. We generally...