Ordinance & License Committee - Regular Meeting

good evening everyone six o'clock and i'll call the June 8th, 2026, meeting of the Ordinance and License Committee to order. We are missing two members. Alderman Wateska was unable to attend. I'm chairing the meeting in his absence, and also Alder Evert was unable to be here this evening. All other members of the committee are present. Three members does constitute a quorum, so we are continuing with the meeting. Moving on to item two is public comment. We did have one person sign up for public comment, and certainly if there's any other members in the audience who are interested in speaking about an item, if you're here for a specific license, you'll be called up at that time. um we'll follow the same rules we do with city council for public comment please come forward state your name and address you'll have three minutes to uh speak and uh our sign up member is stephanie fidlin stephanie floor is yours okay can you hear me okay yes

Good evening. My name is Stephanie Finland. I'm a resident here in the city of Waukesha. I'd like to thank this committee for taking on the important task of addressing the safe usage of motorized bikes and scooters in our community. As a community member, I've seen a dramatic increase in the presence of children on bikes and scooters. Often I see them as I'm walking on sidewalks and walking paths where I have to step off the sidewalk or path to allow the bike to pass. I've seen a man in a motorized wheelchair with his service dog have to exit the sidewalk to allow a child on an e-bike to pass, narrowly avoiding a collision as the dog scrambled to react to the situation. The child tried to avoid hitting the wheelchair and the owner tried to avoid running over his own dog's paws. The reality is that the motor on an E bike can provide up to 20 mph of assist without any effort of the writer, making them two to nearly three times faster than a regular bicycle. Speed is distance over time. At faster speeds, you have less time to make a decision as an operator of a motorized vehicle. Often the riders are young and have not been educated on the rules of the road and don't have a driver's license. This lack of experience makes it even more challenging for them to make a safe decision with a short amount of reaction time. I've witnessed this as well as a driver with e-bikes riding in the center of the road, crossing the middle line, even doing wheelies. Often they don't anticipate right lane drivers turning right at intersections and they continue going straight on the right side of the turning vehicle, sometimes creeping up on the blind spot before the driver is even aware they're there. In my role as an emergency department nurse, I can speak firsthand on the increased number of incidents with injury involving e-bikes and e-scooters. The nature of these injuries is often more severe than a regular bike because of the increased speed at which the injury occurred. My greatest fear as we head into summer is the call for a child with life-threatening injuries as a result of the use of e-bikes and e-scooters. It's for this reason that I urge you to pass the proposed ordinance for prohibition of certain powered vehicles on sidewalks. While some may question this ordinance and say, my child isn't old enough or mature enough to ride in this street, might I suggest that your child isn't old enough or mature enough to be operating this motorized vehicle? Because while I'm concerned about the call for an injured child, I also worry about the call for an injured elderly person who wasn't able to maneuver the quick exit off the sidewalk and suffers a fall with a head injury or a broken bone. Sidewalks are for pedestrians, roadways are for motorized vehicles, and motorized vehicles capable of 28 miles per hour are not for inexperienced operators. Thank you.

Thank you. Is there any other person here who wanted to speak during the public comment section? All right. Seeing no one jump up, we'll move on to item three, which is approval of minutes. We have minutes from our last meeting on May 11th. Were there any changes or corrections necessary? I'm seeing some shaking heads. Is there any objection to approving those by unanimous consent this evening? Hearing no objection, we'll consider those approved by unanimous consent. Moving on, we are going to adjust our agenda just a little bit this evening. Yeah.

Go ahead and follow the agenda as printed.

Okay, we are not going to adjust our agenda this evening. We will move on to item four, which is licenses, and our first item under licenses is our invited bartender applications. We have six applicants invited in this evening. First one is Malik Christian. Is Malik here?

Hello, hello, how we doing?

Good. Malik, you were invited in looks like just because of you have a possession charge on your record from January of 26. Would you like to speak to that as it pertains to your license application?

All I can really say that it was a mistake and it won't happen again. It's just been a little difficult recently. We're just trying to get the ball rolling on this license so we can get to where we need to be.

Any questions or comments from the committee? You're applying for a license to work at, it looks like Crazy Golf, is that correct?

Yes.

Okay. And you're currently employed there, or is your employment subject to this license approval?

No, I'm currently employed there. Okay.

How long have you been working there?

About a year.

A year? Okay. Are they sorry? I have another question for you. So do they know about the controlled substance? Charge they do. Okay. Was it a citation or?

It was a citation.

Sorry for all the questions. I know that this is probably uncomfortable. I apologize, but I'm just trying to get my arms around the whole situation. Was it pod?

Yes.

Okay. I'm going to make the motion to approve it. Prove the application.

I'll second the motion. So we have a motion and a second. Any other questions or comments before we vote? All right. Please vote when it's before you or voice vote if it doesn't come up.

It didn't come up for me. Dorit Wigderson is an aye.

So that item did pass unanimously. That will go to our next council meeting, which is next Tuesday night. It'll be on our consent agenda because it passed unanimously. You are not required to be there. Any member could take an item off of consent agenda if they're concerned about your record. So if you can be there, it might be in your best interest, but you're certainly not required to be.

Okay. Okay.

Any questions?

Once it passes Common Council, the clerk's office will reach out for the final steps for your license.

Okay, great. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you.

All right. Our next invite is Mariah Raskiewicz. I apologize if I butchered that name. Is Mariah here? All right. That is Mariah's second invite, it looks like. Can we hold her over until our next ordinance and license meeting and give her her third invite? All right. Moving right along. Our next one is Angela Lurvie. Is Angela here? And your agent, if they're present. All right, Angela. applying for a license to work at the destination. I do see that you have a DUI on your record from 2025. Again, would you like to speak to that as it pertains to your license application?

Yeah, I think I just had a lapse in judgment that evening and I've taken all the proper steps to take accountability for that and to rectify that and to continue to do right by my license and by myself.

Okay. And you have a couple people behind you. I assume one or both of them are representing the destination? Correct. Could you state your names for the record and anything you'd like to speak on behalf of her application?

My name is Destiny Ramos. I am the agent and business partner with Mr. Stearns of the destination.

Do you guys have any comment that you wanted to make?

I've known Angela for 20 years, and I've known her as a bartender as well for 20 years. She's worked for us for six years. She's never had any infractions in her work skill or anything disciplinary. We do not let anyone drink at our establishment. We've had no other issues, and as long as I've known her, she's had no other issues as well.

Okay. I will point out that this is a renewal application, not a new application.

Okay. Just to be clear, you said that you don't allow anybody to drink while working? Correct. I'm fine.

Yeah, sure.

I'll make a motion to approve the application.

I'll second it.

Okay. We have a motion and a second. Any other comments or questions before we vote? All right, please vote when it's before you.

Wooderson, aye. All right.

That motion did pass unanimously. Same thing I said before. It'll be on our consent agenda at council next Tuesday. You're not required to be there, but certainly any member of the council could remove it if they have a concern about your record. So if you can be there, it might be in your best interest. Assuming it passes council, the clerk's office will be in contact probably the next day.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Next applicant is Joshua Shoemaker or Schumacher It's Joshua here Seeing anybody jump up to answer for that This is Joshua's first invite. So can we hold him over till the next? counselor next ordinance and license meeting Next one is Sarah Silver. Is Sarah here and your agent, if they're present? All right, Sarah. Sarah is applying for an operators license, primarily employed at Woodman's. You were invited in because of. Looks like an OWI or DUI in March of 2020. Is there anything you'd like to speak to on your behalf for your application?

I did write several cards, but I'm going to try and keep it simple. So I want to work in the liquor department because the hours will allow me to be at home with my small children more. We have a three year old and a six and a half month old. They're right outside. Since becoming a mother, my priorities have completely changed. I cannot afford to take risks with my job, the law, or who I work for. My family relies on my stability, which makes me incredibly cautious and a compliant professional. That being said, the decisions I make will always reflect the well-being of my family and myself, so I can always be there for them.

Thank you for writing that And I'm gonna immediately move to motion to approve the license.

I'll second that Your agent is here. I'll give you an opportunity to speak if you wish before we vote Any other questions or comments before we vote Could you say your name for the record?

My name is Nicole Lassner. I would be the agent for the Waukesha Woodmans.

For Woodmans, okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Please vote when it's before you or voice vote. And that did pass unanimously. Did you hear what I said about the council being on the next council meeting and consent agenda and all that? Same applies to you.

I read the email, so yeah.

All right. Thank you for being here this evening. All right. And our last invited bartender this evening is Sean Steffen. Sean, if you're here, please come forward, and your agent if they're present. Hi, guys. Sean is applying for a license primarily for Spring City Restaurant and Rocks Bar. All right, Sean. I see a lot of things highlighted here. including an OWI in September of 22 being the most recent, I think, directly significant offense. What would you like to say on your own behalf as it regards to your license?

Um, well, 1st, the, the, the stuff that you see prior was when I was like, 17 to 20 and. And had some anger issues because of, you know, family stuff I actually learned. In criminal thinking class, what caused and triggered all that and as you could see, my record was absolutely spotless after that, except for that. Stupid that actually happened in my neighborhood. I had a burnt out tail light. I did blow right over the legal limit, but it wasn't my speeding. It wasn't my driving. I didn't cross it and literally as 3 blocks away, which should not have been driving. And it was just, I regret that that that decision, like, it makes me very upset because I drive a lot of miles. I've driven a lot of miles for many, many years at night, whatever. And it kind of like, really messed me up. But as far as. All that stupid stuff when I was a kid, like, uh. That that is completely out of me and and, you know, the journey that I took because of all that made me person I had in the I had 0, you could see my record. I had 0 infractions after the age of 31 years ago. and the OWA, I actually spent a couple hundred dollars and I have a breathalyzer, you know, a portable one that is like, I send it every year to get recalibrated, so if I do have a couple beers with my buddies, I'm always, you know, there's not gonna be another one ever again, because that one really, It kind of burned me because I always preached and practiced everybody has a good time, but everybody gets home safe and no one drinks over the limit. And it happened to me with a burnt out tail light. So it's my fault. It was horrible, but it's a mistake I won't make ever again.

Okay, thank you.

Your agent is present. Do you want to state your name for the record and anything you'd like to say on on his behalf as a agent or manager of the bar?

Absolutely. My name is Dino Giacomantonio. I'm one of the owners of Spring City and Rocks Bar. I'm not here very often vouching for employees. My last time here that I vouched for an employee, she's still with us and she's been here now 10 years in the bar. I like to think of myself as a good judge of character and most importantly I have a business to run and my friendships don't interject or interfere with my ability to run my business. Sean, I've actually known for quite a while, first as a customer, then as a friend, and now as an employee. His level of character is unmatched and is a perfect fit for the customers and the clientele that we serve. Personality-wise, I wouldn't ask for anything better behind my bar, representing my business, and I certainly take full accountability of

anything he does behind my bar when he's inside my my business as a friend as a business owner as a and as an employer thank you uh... i did just want to say that you have to support what you said sean yes all all other infractions other than the other u i again which is from twenty twenty two uh... so not terribly recent you were uh... nineteen ninety five and before so well in the past i make a motion to approve the license rishon stephan second we have a motion in the second uh... any other questions or comments before we go there along china home you work that restaurants uh... three three month three months ago so far okay That application did pass unanimously through the committee. Commented to the other applicants this evening about the sir Moving on to council next week Tuesday Okay, so do you think because of the?

1995 and all that's it do you think I should show up because I would if you think it would help or do you think it would?

Doreen I can never speak for the other 12 members of council who aren't here this evening again any one of them could look at this and say um the mayor will say is there anything

Okay, well, I'll swing up here then, and I appreciate you guys. I really do. Thank you. Thank you, guys.

Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you.

Okay. Nope, that's fine.

Okay.

Those are our invited bartender applications or operators licenses from this evening. We had one application that was on the agenda but not invited, and that is a... For Carolyn Henson from Hannan's, I believe she has some things on her record, but nothing in the last 12 years. So I'm assuming that that was just no recency, and that's why she was on our agenda, but not invited because of the age of the infractions. I will make a motion to approve the application for Carolyn Henson.

I will second that motion.

Any comments or questions before we vote? Okay, please vote when it's before you. And that passed unanimously as well. All right. Moving right along. That takes us to other applications. We had one application that was invited this evening. This is for tobacco outlet and liquor, Narendra Singh. Narendra, if you're here, could you come up to the center?

Good evening, everybody.

Hello.

Hi, ma'am.

No, you were invited in I believe because of a failed compliance check. Nation. Sorry, I got a lot of paper in front of me here. So there was a failed compliance check on November 6th of 2025 with respect to the sale of tobacco products. Could you speak to, I guess, the circumstances of that and any steps that you've done to mitigate that and ensure that it doesn't occur again in your business?

Sorry, so this is a heavy, right? Misunderstanding this happen is right.

I'm not sure I understand.

If you don't mind a little bit helping my brother too.

Okay.

His English is very more better for me. Okay, sure. Thank you.

I'm just going to translate him. That's fine. Sure, that's fine. Yes, sir.

After that, it took about five to six months. After that, it took about seven months. After that, it took about five to six months. After that, it took about seven months.

Can I translate for him?

Absolutely.

So he's saying that he has been always checking the IDs and everything all the time, but there was one incident where this happened accidentally, where he thought that the guy that came to purchase was old enough, but it turned out that he was not old enough. And after that, from last six months, seven months, he is very cautious about that, you know, to check IDs and everything. Plus, there is ID scanners also where he can scan the ID and to make sure the person is over age.

Can you ask him, were the ID scanners added within the last six months?

census infraction.

So just happened that bad luck that I go to restroom use. He's my little brother. He learns he me. I'm all the time over there and check very gently. Over there very nice, very young. But bad luck that he's check ID but no date or make sure. That happened just the wrong way. But before, I'm very careful and proper everything, no complain again. I tried my best for you. In the future, I'm very prepared. Okay. Thank you. Other questions from the committee?

No. Eric, go ahead.

So the ID check scanner that you have now, is that being used every single time?

Almostly checking every time, but bad luck, 80 to 90% and the older people come to my store. When it's the new people, young people, I see a check ID and very prepared. Okay.

Thank you.

Any other questions, comments? Okay. Given that we appreciate you coming in this evening, given the single infraction, we're not in a position to consider, you know, not renewing your license, but should there be additional Compliance check failures in the future and that would reach to a number that we would consider that that would be a concern and something the committee would have to consider so Keep keep doing what you're doing and keep up the due diligence in the future. So to avoid future invites before the committee With that I will make a motion to approve the renewal for tobacco outlet and liquor I

I'll second the motion. Okay.

We have a motion and a second. Any other questions or comments before we vote? Please vote when it's before you. And that did pass unanimously. That will go to our city council meeting on next week, Tuesday. And then the clerk's office will be in contact once that's approved. Thank you.

Thank you.

No, I don't believe so. Let me just state. All right. That was our one invited application. We do have a whole stack of other applications that are up for renewal or approval this evening. I'm assuming there were no concerns from the clerk's office on any of these, hence no invites? That is correct. All right. Any concerns from members of the committee?

Question for just clarification, because I saw the, looks like the new cobblestone hotel, didn't we approve that at the last council?

So just to clarify, that is their renewal right away, just because their original, their first application butted up so closely to the expiration date, because all of the liquor licenses expire on the same date every year. So it's their renewal for the 2026, 2027 season.

Thank you. Perfect. Looks like there are 69 total licenses.

Do we need to name every single one?

They are attached to the agenda. Last meeting we said as long as they were attached, which I can confirm that they are, we can approve them in mass.

Okay, then I am going to make a motion to approve all 69 licenses that are attached to the agenda as they are printed on there.

I'll second that motion.

Okay, thank you. We have a motion and a second. I assume there's no other questions or comments. Please vote when it's before you. And that did pass unanimously. Moving right along. That takes us to item 5 which is our discussion and recommendation items this evening we do have an item for a Proposed regulation of powered scooters bikes and other vehicles on city sidewalks. This is related to ordinance 11.07 6e uh... or i'm sorry eleven point zero seven sixty vehicles on sidewalks brian i'm gonna turn this over to you if you want to speak thank you i'm sure by now you've read the memorandum so i'll just kind of breeze through the high points here it was uh...

Council member Doreen Wigderson first approached me and asked that we start researching into the issue of these e-vehicles. Since then, a number of other members of the council, including the mayor, have also made that request. We've been hearing about complaints coming in from, well, a lot of different places. When we began researching this, I think we pretty quickly came to a conclusion that a lot of the behavior that's being complained of and is unsafe out there is already addressed by existing state statutes. But we found that a gap in this has to do with the use of scooters, in particular e-scooters, on sidewalks. If you spend any time out on the sidewalks in Waukesha, you will know that the use of those has increased dramatically and that they are fast. So what we're proposing here is unlike other communities in the area and around the state who have proposed very elaborate and comprehensive schemes towards regulating all of these various devices. We are focusing at least initially on what is the main problem, and that is the e-powered devices on sidewalks. Already, state law prohibits the use of vehicles on sidewalks. State law does not consider e-scooters to be a vehicle. but it does give the municipalities the express authority to prohibit their use on sidewalks if that's what they want to do. So that's really what we're proposing here tonight. I would just add that if you spend any time at all on online shopping for these scooters, you will find right away that they're pretty inexpensive. $130, $150 will get you an e-powered scooter. And by scooter, I mean the two-wheel stand-up with a T-type handlebar. That kind of money will get you a scooter that's capable of going 25 miles per hour. And they're advertised as such. I was shocked to find out that the fastest scooter that was tested by a website specializing in scooters could do 91 miles per hour. And there are quite a few of them that will go between 50 and 70 miles per hour. Now, those are pretty expensive, and those are not the ones that parents are buying for young kids. But they are buying the $130 to $150 ones that will go 25. And 25 on a sidewalk being piloted by a young kid is way too fast. It's a dangerous speed. It's much faster than pedaled bikes. or foot-propelled scooters can do. So that puts them into a whole new category as far as danger to pedestrians on sidewalks. So we have a proposal before you. Sitting next to me is Michael Radovich, assistant city attorney who did a lot of the research into the complexities of the state law that apply to all of these various vehicles. So I think I will just turn it over to him if he wants to take it from here and field questions that you have about this.

Yes, good evening. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.

This is your referral, so I'll give you the first crack at speaking to it.

I'm sure we looked at other municipalities. So let me just, I'm just going to say this. My referral was based on Actually, Brian made the comment about how other alders came forward after I put the referral through. My referral was actually based on an email that we received from a constituent that they had sent to the entire Common Council about their concern about e-bikes. And I was a little... Um, well, you know, we don't email each other back and forth, obviously, but I didn't hear any response from. Other alders responding to this constituent and then I saw this constituent also put it in the Facebook group. Um, you know, 1 of the Facebook communities for Waukesha talking about the e bike. Thing, and then that was really what prompted me, like, obviously, as we're coming into the summer months, we have to address. Um, the issues regarding e bikes, so, um. you know, I think when I was doing my own research, I was surprised, as you just mentioned, how fast some of these things can go. And as a mom of kids that I brought up here, I was very, myself personally, I was very adamant about my kids staying out of the street, obviously making sure that when they're in the street that they obviously know the rules of the road. And I think the biggest thing for me is you've got kids that are That are playing, and I love that they're not on their phones. They're not on their tablets and I don't want to take that away. But I also feel that there's a responsibility if you have a vehicle that can go this quickly that you have to know, like, what the rules of the road are in traffic and all that stuff too. So that was really what prompted me to. To to do the referral to see what other municipalities are doing. So that's my 1st question. Are there other municipalities? What are other municipalities close to us doing? I do know that the state has its own. Set of rules regarding, um. You know, bikes, I know that they, there's been some digital media out there regarding mopeds and motorcycles and all that different levels. So I'm just curious to know what some of the other neighboring communities are doing regarding the bags.

Yes, so other communities, there are some who are doing more comprehensive ordinances that detail a registration scheme. Some of the neighboring communities will detail, you know, the bicycles are allowed in this area, but not this area. They'll, you know, maybe not, they'll regulate e-bikes, but not electric scooters. There is age requirements, helmet requirements. It's kind of wide ranging as to what other communities are doing. Okay.

So, let me ask this, what about what have have we done any in. What about enforcement? So, like, we do have obviously some state statues and things that are already on place. What are we doing in the city prior to this about enforcement? Do we know any stats on. Tickets or citations or things that we've issued in the past.

I don't know any stats off the top of my head. I will tell you, I have worked with the police department in kind of wrapping our heads around exactly how the state regulations work. It is a little complicated. There are several different classes of e-bikes. There's e-scooters off vehicle or off road. motor vehicles there are motor bicycles there's just all different kinds of things which make regulating them challenging so that's part of the usefulness of our ordinance here is it's just a broad regulation applies to everything

And I think it's probably a first step, right? So maybe, so I'm totally in favor of this. I know I was, I love to read the Facebook comments because that's where the, you get a lot of, well, isn't it just common sense? Well, no, obviously, since we have people that are driving those on the sidewalk. So I'm absolutely in favor of this as of, you know, and let's see where it goes. I just wanted to see what the research found. So I think that this is great and I love it that you're in, that we're incorporating all of the different, not just e-bikes, but scooters too.

I really appreciate what you've put together so far, especially with regards to, you know, things like, I think in the memo it was referred to as Barbie cars. But, you know, I grew up definitely with, you know, the little powered ride-on things. My son has too, so I'm glad we're still, you know, not worrying about those necessarily because I don't think those are the concern that folks really have. So we're not worrying, we're not going to, you know, lock those out of our sidewalks because I don't think those we want on the road either. but also making sure that we're covering for mobility scooters. I think that's a really good step, making sure that we're making an allowance for that or an exception, whatever you want to phrase that as. So I think that's really important. I'm really glad to see that. And I think you're right, the technology and the affordability of that technology is changing dramatically and at a speed that I think a lot of folks really didn't think was gonna happen. The cost of motors is dropping, the power of those motors are dropping, the size and power of battery packs, again, are, the packs are getting smaller, they're getting cheaper, they're getting more dense, so you're seeing higher speeds. And that's, I think, isn't gonna slow down really and anytime soon. So I think this is a good first step. Kind of echo Alderman Richardson's statement. This is a good way to get us kind of on the road of getting some handle on it. I would like to hear, I guess, I see we've got someone from PD. I'm kind of curious. I don't mean to jump the gun, so I apologize.

We don't want to put you on the spot, but if you've got anything to add.

Oh, no, license back on this body, so I don't mean to step out of line, but I am curious to hear some more.

STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD AND THOSE WATCHING AT HOME.

Just from our stance, again, we want to have, we realize that they are a safety issue. We have been having some accidents concerning them, and we definitely need to put some regulations in place. However, I think that the ordinance as proposed is pretty extreme in terms of zero e-bikes regardless of speed on any sidewalk.

Okay.

Just from our notes that we had taking this through all of our patrol supervisor meeting as well as our command team meeting, we've got some suggestions such as ages being one of those, if it's 12 or older, that they can't be on the sidewalk. Right of way for pedestrians at all times, an audible signal when you're passing, and a lot of municipalities go to basically a speed restriction of no faster than walking speed when pedestrians are present. So from our perspective, we want this to be a reasonable standard that we can enforce. And my concern is if that it's a blanket ban on any electrical vehicle at any speed at any age, that we are gonna be inundated with calls with these, even when people are operating them reasonably and prudently.

So you're saying that as it's written, we need to make some changes. Am I understanding that?

I'm saying the perspective from the police department is that yes, I think that they're, again, I think it's a good first step in terms of regulating these, but a blanket ban on any electronic vehicle on any sidewalk at any age at any speed I think is unreasonable.

at the risk of creating a point counterpoint type situation i guess i'm gonna throw it back or ask the city attorney's office i guess were you aware of the pd's feelings such as that and why like i guess why are we not taking that into account

We certainly, we came here tonight aware that there is certainly going to be a lot of different perspectives on the issue. Like we've discussed, this is a first step. There's lots of different opinions out there that this poses a unique problem. So we're certainly willing to work with everyone on this.

So I have to say that I think I am, I personally am in favor of an age limit, particularly on some of the, you know, I'm concerned about some of the bikes or scooters that go as fast as a car. You know, I do feel that there needs to be, there should be some type of licensing or a safety training or something that they have to go through. My biggest concern, as our public commenter had made, was some of these kids are getting these bikes and they don't even have a driver's license, so they're not even taught about the rules of the road. So that's a concern of mine. So I'm not against what you're saying. I do feel that several of the points that the police department is making is reasonable. I wish that we had some of the other alders who had some concerns about this show up today to kind of talk about this.

I would add that the reason that the draft is as simple and basic as it is, is for two reasons really. Number one, it's for enforceability so that we don't have to ask, we don't have to determine age, we don't have to determine speed all of those things just a flat out prohibition makes it simple the second thing is that we anticipated that there was going to be a lot of discussion a lot of changes we did not dream in our wildest dreams that this ordinance would pass through as is and be enacted in that form so this is a proposal that starts Knowing that they are going to be modifications to it, so that's why it's in the form that it's in right now.

Okay, so I would like to ask. Our police department. You said you're you're not you're against a full out ban. So where do you think the line should be?

So the notes from our meeting say the recommendation would be that kids 12 and older must ride in the roadway. Under 12 could be on the sidewalk. However, there would be restrictions on that, be unlawful for any person driving a bike, e-bike, electric scooter, Personal mobility device on the sidewalk to to attempt to pass another person or persons going in the same direction Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna just just hold on I'm making notes. Okay, no problem So basically you wouldn't be able to allowed to pass anybody without giving a warning And until it becomes evident that the person so warned is aware of the approach of the person trying this is on the sidewalk Correct, okay It would also a recommendation to be that just to state that pedestrian should have at all times the right of way upon the sidewalks and if necessary, the person driving the bike shall dismount and vacate the sidewalk to give the right away to the pedestrian at all times. And speed again limited to safe and prudent operation, but I would also. Suggest limiting that even further to walking speed upon passing any pedestrian and that would be relatively easy to enforce.

So your 1st point about older than 12 for certain classes or.

Not broken down my class because honestly, some bicycles can people can ride up to 20 miles an hour on a bicycle.

Got it.

No, go ahead, it's fine.

Yeah, just again for clarification purpose and just kind of to bring it up for as we're kind of considering and talking about this, I looked up our existing code for bicycles and I, since Doreen and I both cover downtown, this would still not, how should I say, our existing code says no bicycles on the sidewalks in the central city, correct? Would this... supersede that, or just still apply. I just want to make sure that we're being very clear about that as well, because in downtown we have very little space on our sidewalks and such. So I just want to make sure that we're still being very clear about that, right?

Yeah, the way this draft would work is that E-powered vehicles, whatever they are, we should come up with a term that we're using here, would be prohibited everywhere, but pedal and human-powered devices would still be allowed everywhere on sidewalks as they are now, except for the central business district.

Okay. I think that's something that, as I've talked to some neighbors about this, is that they're They had the assumption that bikes were banned everywhere, like downtown, because, well, we live near downtown. We're kind of used to that, but they had the assumption that anything pedal-powered even was also banned also on every city sidewalk. That's not the case. So I think it's just a good point of clarification.

Right.

I thought bikes, even not e-bikes, regular pedal bikes, were banned on sidewalks for people over a certain age. Am I misremembering that? I thought only children under a certain age were allowed to ride bikes on sidewalks in the city.

I am not familiar with that regulation.

Okay.

I was gonna say, unless I'm missing it, it's 7.05. I've been reading through it here earlier and reading through it again, I didn't see anything about age. So I might be missing it too, but it's a good question.

You're not missing anything.

Okay. I'm glad my reading comprehension is okay today.

See, I grew up on the south side of Milwaukee, and I remember when I got my bike, I had to go down to the fire department and get inspected, and I used to have to get a license, right? I mean, I went down to the fire department, and they had to look it all over, and it had to be safe, and I had a little license that I had to put on the back. Do we not do that anymore? Am I that old?

As far as I know, we still have registration tags, right? Yes.

Yeah, and I know some communities are considering something like that for the e-bikes.

You know, I'm just wondering if that's, I mean, you know, I look at, you know, the consensual complaints that I get, you know, when they see violations or unsafe activity, they don't know how to report it because there's no, you know, there isn't a license for a bike. But, I mean, you know, I just... You know, just the other day, I was driving on Perkins, making a left turn on Perkins and Main Street, heading south. And a guy on an e-bike, who was definitely a Class 3, he went right through the stop sign. Didn't look, didn't whatever, he just kept going, right? And it's like, how do you, oh, I'm going to call the police and report this person, who by the time an officer gets there, he's not going to be around, and there's no license or anything, too. to report it you know what i mean but blatantly not paying attention to the road and it was an adult it wasn't even a kid he was in the street not on the sidewalk but you know i'm looking at it thinking you know if you got a car coming up eels avenue that you know what i mean coming up that cleveland area and just totally hitting them because he didn't pay attention i don't know i'm just rambling i'm sorry about that

I mean, to that point, and as kind of the memo also lays out, I think it's also important to remind everyone that that's already illegal. So there's already laws on the books. We're not going to try and reinvent that in this stage. And it's hard. I mean, our PD does a great job. They can't be everywhere all at once. Of course. So don't take that.

It's certainly not. I mean.

But I get I totally echo your frustration because the same thing is, you know, writing living around the university and such. We see that. Quite a lot in our neighborhood, you know, folks, you know, just blasting through whether it's on the sidewalks, the streets, stop signs, the trails, you know, it can be kind of rough when you're walking with your family or your dog and such. And all of a sudden, you've got something blasting right past you. so i get that and plus being that they're electric they're quiet i mean i know um like electric cars they've now mandated i believe at the federal level that they make some sort of a sound you can hear them going through parking lots and stuff to warn pedestrians but we don't have that currently for like e-bikes and that and that's kind of hard it's you know not to say that you know we don't have an opportunity to do something here but there is also it seems like statewide state side of things and federally it seems like we're kind of catching up a little bit, you know, maybe there's an opportunity there for our Higher elected officials to maybe do make some You know actions there, but I don't know that we can force people to make you know noisemakers on their machines to make sure that but I do I'm actually kind of curious about that idea of because that's always been the as a bike rider the common courtesy of when for example we're on a trail and you're coming up behind someone whether it's someone who's a pedestrian another bicycle rider you either you sound a bell you sound a horn you say coming on your left you know that's always just common courtesy um And I know, like, for example, I've been teaching that to my son, you know, strongly as he's learning to ride his bike and we go out on the trail, you know, I remind him, okay, it's your turn. You gotta stay on your left. And we tell that to the person we're coming up behind. So some of this comes back to also, I think, parents too, you know, reminding our parents, you know, please talk to your kids. You know, among the many things parents need to talk to their kids about these days. But there's a little bit of that too, I think, you know, being good stewards and such.

yeah i'm just thinking i mean it's for me i definitely have concerns about these devices i i mean you know it's plain to see i mean i i spend a lot of time in commercial areas um i think of like the the parking lots at the shops at fox river where i find myself a lot and i see a lot of teenagers for lack of a better term zipping around in the parking lots on these scooters not really paying attention to traffic around them and you know it is it is only a matter of time before some really gruesome accident happens and this becomes a real public issue, and I'm sure maybe it's already happened, and I'm sure it's happened somewhere, maybe just not in Waukesha. So I have concerns. The topic is not lost on me. I'm not a biker. I'm not going to find myself on a bicycle, E or otherwise, probably at my age. But I I'm inclined, what I'll say is I'm inclined to support the draft from the attorney's office because with all due respect to the PD, what I heard you say did not sound like an easier, more enforceable ordinance. What I heard was a lot of other stipulations and a lot of other exceptions that in my mind Makes enforcement that much more difficult. So, I'm kind of at a crossroads there as to how best. To balance that, because, you know. A full prohibition of these devices on sidewalks is to me an easier line to draw. Then having to determine, okay, are they, you know, do we think this person is over 12 or under 12? Do we think they're going too fast or, you know. I guess to me that in that invokes some more difficulty in trying to determine if they're really breaking the ordinance or not, but maybe the PD is fully equipped to make those. Um, distinctions, I don't know if it's a public that's calling you to complain about it. I don't know that the public is in the best spot to make that determination. And you're still going to get flooded with calls because people are going to see them and say. Well, I don't know if he's 12 or 13, you know. and he should be on the sidewalk or not so i guess that's my piece and i'm certainly open to comments from either side from the city attorney's office or the pd in response to that but that's kind of what i'm struggling with our comment is that this draft is intended as a starting point and we're sure that there will be plenty of discussions

and that all of the issues that are brought up will be addressed. So I don't think we're really at a point right now where we're answering all of the issues, but we hope that there will be a robust discussion of all of these points.

So does it make sense then to maybe move something so that we can get it to council for all of us to talk about? And I say that with a lot of respect to everything that you said. I agree with a lot of what the PD is suggesting. I do feel that there needs to be some limits I also echo some of the parents who have younger children that have bicycles that, you know, if they have a bicycle, does it have to be in the street? If they're not old enough to have a bike, you know, I, I was riding my bike early, you know? So, you know, I don't, you know, so maybe, maybe we pass it. to go to council, I'm just throwing this out there, knowing that the council will tear it apart. Send it back. Send it back. I don't know if that makes sense, but I want to have a discussion to do the right thing. I think all of us agree that something needs to be done. Something needs to be done to create a safer environment for this type of... vehicle and of course the pedestrians that are walking and whatnot so we absolutely have to do something but i'm just wondering if we move this forward to council and have the entire council talk about it only because i i really expected there to be more members here today just because of how much talk and so maybe that's the move we do is approve it to move forward to council with the understanding that they will talk you know that we'll have more robust discussion about it and i'm saying that with thank you for the first step and i absolutely appreciate your comments and then you come back to council so that you can make your recommendations there too i just i don't know you guys can disagree with me

or do we hold it for our next session and again solicit that engagement from our peers? Okay, we could do that too. Just a thought, because... No, I'm open.

I'm absolutely open. I just really think there needs to be more dialogue. I don't think that it's up to just the three of us. I think if we want to make a really good ordinance that's going to address this problem, I think that we do need other... other alders to come in and speak their piece, whether it's this committee or at the council overall. So I'm open to either way. So we can vote to hold it and then we can put out, or you can, oh, go ahead, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Brian.

My suggestion would be to recommend it for discussion at council rather than keep it here.

Okay, great.

It does not have to follow the standard three readings. There can be as much discussion as you want there to be, but your point is a good one. You want to have the entire council privy to all of the discussions.

Right. I agree.

I'm inclined to support that as well. And, you know, it may be a two hour discussion at council and it may end up coming. I mean, we always have the ability at council to send it back to committee based on the feedback that we get from the 15 of us.

I just really would like their input. So I guess with that, I will make a motion to approve the recommendation as is to move it to council. And to move, yeah, to move it to council to discuss.

To approve.

To approve. Or to recommend approval as is, as presented. I'll second that. Okay.

Clarifying question Eric, go ahead and again, kind of going to go back to 1 of your points. And again, I. To voice it in question is. You know, we're not going to ban necessarily then as part of this. Pedal bikes, though, in other areas of say, like, for example, to your kind of example, when my son was learning is learning how to write his bike. We're not banning them. You know, kids from, you know, learning as we're walking on the sidewalk and stuff, we're not putting them out in the streets as they pedal and learn. But this is, again, focused on e-bikes and such. And I'm seeing nods. And yeah, I just want to make sure that folks listening at home is understanding we're not going to force, you know, new new bike riders out there, you know, you know. Into traffic or into bike lanes where they're not prepared for that yet. You know, we want to take it as you know You know, this is just one carving I guess So that makes sense. Okay I'm seeing nods, okay Any other questions comments

Tom, you you were going to respond to my comment.

So if but if this gets voted on tonight, then it basically goes to consent.

If you're all in three favor of the proposed ordinance, I'm just trying to clarify that ordinances never go on the consent agenda and I just want to be clear what my recommendation was was to just move the whole issue to the Council for discussion.

And maybe is that the motion that we made or correct?

Well, we're approving it as presented to move it to council and it will not go to consent because we have to all talk and it, you know, when it comes to an ordinance, it has to be discussed and then we have to read it three times before we can even approve it. Okay. Understood. Thanks. Yeah. Okay.

Any other questions, comments?

And I think I want to say 1 more thing before we vote is just for the people at home and for the paper, because you know that they're going to write about this. Is that again? This is strictly we are proposing it as is just to clarify so that it can go to council for discussion so that other alders can make recommendations. So, if anybody's listening at home. You know, this is an opportunity for you to contact your older and let your voice be heard as far as what you would like to. See, or what your concerns are, because this will be a bigger discussion and even come down and make public comment at the council meetings when this is on the agenda.

Okay, and then my apologies, I was doing a lot of typing. Could you just repeat the mover in the secondary please?

I believe Doreen made the motion and I second it. So motion by Widgerson, seconded by Manion. Okay, and that motion did pass three to zero.

So will this automatically be on Tuesday's council agenda for discussion, Brian? We'll move that fast? So we'll have first discussion already on Tuesday?

I will send the item to be put onto the council agenda. Okay.

Thank you.

All right. That was our one discussion item for this evening. That moves us on to communications. Anything from the clerk's office?

Nothing from the clerk's office.

Anything else from the city attorney's office? Brian's shaking his head no. All right, that takes us to item eight, adjournment. Any objection to adjourning the meeting?

No objection.

Hearing and seeing no objection, we are adjourned. Thank you. Thank you.