Business Improvement District Board #2 (historic Third Ward) - Regular Meeting

Good afternoon, everybody. We will call to meet order the regular meeting of the historic preservation commission for Monday, August 4.

This conference will now be recorded.

Start over. Yeah. Alright. Please call the roll.

Andy Price and Brown.

Excuse the pub, president. Oh.

Sally Peltz? Here. Nicholas Ann Robinson?

Here.

Mister Keating Khan? Here. Matt Dros?

Here.

Joe Morales?

Robert Balman.

Here. Okay, there. Full compliment. Okay. First item on the agenda is file 250,119 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness to replace the neon lighting on the Paps Bridge sign with LED rope lighting at 1203 North 10th Street in the Paps Brewery Historic District for the Brewery Neighborhood Improvement District Number 1. This understand this will be held again?

Yeah. They've requested that we hold this until September.

Motion to hold? So moved. Your second? Second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Moving on to item two, file 250,494 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for retroactive approval of vinyl windows at 2377 North Sherman Boulevard in the Sherman Boulevard Historic District for Lakita Hoskin. Thank you.

So this is the Charles Duborny house. It's a 1913 Craftsman. This is a view from the side street in 2015 taking a look at the lower bank of windows, the double hungs. You can see they're nine over one double hung sash windows with wood storms where the top sash is smaller than the bottom sash. Taking a look at street view from this year, you can see that those have all been replaced with vinyl one over one windows.

Additionally, some windows in the back side, and then I believe a few windows on the on the interior side facade have also been replaced. This came to light because the property owner received a order violation for window replacement without a certificate of appropriateness. This is the letter from the inspector from April and then some photos from the violation that the inspector had taken during that time. So the applicant was in receipt of the order violation and has applied for after the fact approval of the vinyl windows. The preservation guidelines for Sherman Boulevard state to retain existing window openings, to retain the present configuration of panes, sashes, sills, etcetera, and to avoid changing the size or configuration of window panes or sashes, and also to respect the stylistic period or periods a building represents.

And if there needs to be replacement, the replacements should duplicate the appearance and design of the original sash or door, also to avoid using modern style window units such as these vinyl windows. You know, as you're all well aware, HPC has never approved a vinyl window. And with that in mind, staff recommends denial of the vinyl windows. And staff staff recommends that the windows are replaced with solid wood nine over one, double hung sash windows and and replacement storm windows that would match and replicate the, historic material that has been removed.

K. Any questions or comments? Is the owner present or the agent? Apparently not. So the staff's recommendation is denial. Is that correct? Yes. K. Is there a motion to that effect?

Move to deny.

Second. All in favor?

Aye.

Aye. Very good. Moving on to our next item. Item three, file 250495. Resolution related to a certificate of appropriateness for a gazebo at 2879 North Grand Boulevard in the Grand Boulevard Historic District for Sheila Teague. K. Thank you.

So we've got the Lewis Wilkie House on Grant Boulevard where it intersects on the corner of West Oak Street. It's a 1921 arts and crafts. The applicant is proposing to add a gazebo in the rear yard, an either 14 foot by 10 foot version or a nine and a half by nine and a half foot gazebo. This is the view from Locust Street.

So you

can see they have a a large, long rear yard, that is enclosed by a wood privacy fence. So the gazebo would be somewhat visible, but, partially obscured by the by the privacy fence that is, located on that side yard and rear yard. The applicant provided an area aerial view from their house of the backyard, indicating the approximate area that they're looking to install this gazebo. They have two options they haven't made up their mind or at least hadn't when they submitted the application. They're either thinking of this wood version with a metal standing seam roof or a metal version, with a canvas roof, arched arched roof opening.

The designs are reasonably appropriate. HPC has approved gazebos with similar designs in the past. So staff recommending approval, with conditions that they obtain a book building permit, and they they verify and comply with any setback requirements.

I have a question. This has come up before. At what point does an accessory structure like this become falls within our jurisdiction, and when does it just do what you want because it's temporary and it you pulled it up at the end of the season and that kind of thing?

We've we've reviewed these somewhat temporary We have. Gazebos in the in the past. It won't be it won't be set in footings, so it is removable.

That's my point. Yeah. But

the far list I've

taken is little small greenhouses and said, make sure it's not visible from the sidewalk, and we'll we'll, we'll not discuss it further. Okay. That's something this something substantial we always bring here. Okay.

Very good. Is there a motion to approve?

I have a question, please. Did we approve the fence?

The fence was approved. Taking a look at the the image, from the street view, though, it appears that it may be built too tall, in the side yard. It it appears to be taller

than the mostly about the style.

Yes. I mean, it's a solid wood privacy fence.

Those are permitted. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Got it. And I believe that was from last year or maybe the year before that we approved that.

The motion?

Move to approve.

Is there a second? Second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Very good. Moving on to item four, file two five zero four nine eight. Resolution relating to a certificate appropriateness for gable removal, reciting, and window and door repair to the carriage house at 3033 West Kilburn Avenue in the Concordia Historic District for James and Rebecca Nicholas who are here along with their contractor. Very good.

Okay. So we have got a proposal. The applicants are seeking to rehabilitate the carriage house that's at the the rear of their property. The exterior scope of work, so what what we what pertains to us here today, includes, removal of a rear dormer, subsequent patching of the roof, and addition of new asphalt shingles to match the existing roof, repair slash replacement of siding, restoration of the shingle siding on the on the side ends where it's been removed, on the east and west facades. So this is a historic view of the carriage house from eight from 1984.

There wasn't a building permit located on file, but it likely dates to around the time of construction for the, Palmer House, which is a a grand German Renaissance revival house constructed in 1895 and designed by Schnetsky and Liebert Liebert. Due to neglect and termite damage, the building is structurally compromised. So the owners have contracted with a structural engineer to reinforce the the structure and do the necessary repairs in order to retain the carriage house and have it be usable space. So in addition to the exterior work that we'll be looking at, there also the interior work includes adding new support structures on the 2nd Floor, removal and replacement of the concrete foundation, the addition of new footings, reinforcement of the walls on the south facade, new electrical and new plumbing. In the course of examining the structure, their structural engineer determined that a removal of the dormer on the south, roofline would relieve the weight on the roof, and allow the necessary repairs without, adding adding weight, on the roofline that's that's compromising the integrity of the structure.

So you can see this is the a view from, from the looking north at the south facade of, the carriage house. The next image should be see from the street view. So you you you can see this is the house. Looking looking back down the driveway, you can't really see the carriage house from the right of way. The next image is an aerial, showing the house along with the carriage house and the dormer that they're proposing removing, doesn't face any right of way. There's no alley there. It's only visible from the parking lot, of the property, that's just to the south there.

It's actually not even that. It's it's that's the landlocked

parcel. Right? Yes. The there's the where the trees are shown on the side there, that's a the landlord parcel, and then there's that parking lot that's

half of the half of

the Okay. But, yeah, quite a limited view if ever. So

taking a look at their scope of work. So they're proposing removing that that dormer and recladding it and matching the existing roof pitch. So taking a look at the south elevation, they would also be removing a window opening or a door opening, that's been boarded over and recladding the roof, shingles to match, reopening the boarded windows and restoring those windows, restoring the doors that are there, adding new carriage doors, which they haven't selected yet. So staff, if HPC agrees, would would be able to handle that at the staff level. But they would be able to re redo the siding with the drop siding, redo the shingles with, shingles to match, and remove that dormer to allow the structural integrity of the of the repairs to be able to last.

This has been reviewed at the state as part of a historic homeowners tax credit program application, and the state's already signed off on this on on the dormer removal. So with that in mind, staff's recommending approval with conditions, just our standard wood conditions, and then our standard roof conditions at no chimneys or moldings or other permanent features would be altered or removed. And then condition three that the applicant works with staff to find appropriate personnel doors or over overhead doors as they may need to be added. Well, you're good with the dormer removal. It's not visible. I mean, it's not ideal, but it's not visible from the right of way. It's it's it's barely it's really not visible from any public land.

K. Because that's good because I thought there was some disagreement before.

Yeah. Okay.

Would you

to add anything, mister Nick?

I have a couple of minor things to add.

Can you put me draw on that? Say,

I I I'm I'm familiar with this structure, and this is a big structure for just a garage, basically.

It's quite large. From perspective, for everyone here, it's 35 foot by 30 a 30 foot structure. So very, very large for

a garage. And for the record, being tell us who you are.

Yep. Apologies. My name is James Nicholas. I own the property investor. And then with me here today, my name is Jason Weber. I work for Arch Solar. Awesome. And I was the solar designer for the for the property. He's handling all of the electrical considerations for what we're gonna do inclusive of removing. There's conduit and safety lights on the front of the garage that we're gonna remove and put more structurally appropriate lighting on the garage That's part of what we're handling here, so he's helping with that assisting with that.

The structural engineer and my contractor that's doing the work wasn't able to attend last minute, but all of the plans are still here. So just a couple of important things I wanted to make sure people notice. The what looks like a chimney in the center of the ridge line of the roof. There is nothing underneath that inside of the garage today, so that's causing the ridge to sag substantially. What that's then doing is pushing the roofline north and south out, and causing extra weight and issue.

So part of the design is going to be extra supports. We're putting in a very large LVL beam across the center of the garage to support it, and then we're adding, additional collar ties at the top to hold it back in. That, chimney type structure that's on the top that is nonfunctional is currently shingled on the side with asphalt shingles. Intent, if we can get to that point of the project, is to also put matching siding there like it should be for the rest of the structure. The west side of the structure has previously, before you purchased the property, been replaced with just the lap siding going all the way up and the shingled siding that, wooden shingle siding had been replaced, on that side?

On the side that we're touching, we're going to maintain that. So we're putting an extra expense to make sure that we're keeping that aesthetic on the side of the garage. Well, the

west side had fire damage.

The west side had a fire damage. My understanding is sometime around 2017. The property to

the west of you, they were carried right bound burned down, basically.

Yep. Yeah. Completely burned down. This project is actually incredibly, involved. The a big contributing factor to it as well is that the concrete foundation was poured at some point in the past retroactively and went over the top of the sill plate, which has caused it to sink down and and kind of crush the rear, the south side of the structure. So we're we've poured and are pouring large grade beams on each side and completely redoing the foundation. It's a pretty massive restoration project. On the side where we demonstrated can you go back to the diagram where the the doors are in that diagram.

One more or two more, maybe. And where you were?

One more, please. So here, we're gonna be attempting to restore that door and window with just a pane of glass inside of that window so that'll be built on-site by the carpenter. So trying to keep it as historically appropriate as possible. So I don't have an exact window for it. The doors, we are just re refinishing the doors that were nailed over. So restoring the holes that are in it, that sort of stuff. For the front of the garage, we did and I apologize. I didn't get this to you ahead of time. We did identify what the doors would be for the garage doors. I can show that to y'all if you're okay with me sending that now or how we wanna handle that.

I have it here on my phone. It's basically this. So this is not product that we're putting in. Don't and I don't know if that Let's take a look at it. Yeah.

It's the That's the third condition here, that the doors will be approved by staff. Yeah. We can. Okay.

On the far right side, we're putting a man door there and window where there's currently those two doors. Those are not original doors, although they do appear that way. We look back at the storage photo that we had, and those are actually just made out of plywood. And they are also termite damaged. I think that basically covers that piece.

On the solar side of things, we are moving the electricals. It's very hard to see, but there's an electrical line that goes over the top of the garage roof, and that will move the electrical to terminate behind the the garage. And then we're trenching along the west side of the property to reconnect into the the the home again. So we'll be taking the what's that called, Jason? The password?

What's the thing that the Oh, there's there's not gonna be a there's not gonna be a mast on the house anymore. We're gonna be actually we're working with We Energies to have underground feet to the home and moving the meter off of the house, moving it back. The main service meter is gonna be on the on the barn, and then we're gonna trench everything back underground. So there's just no question that this is gonna look way more historical when this project is done than it does currently. So Yep. Lots of steps being taken

Oh. To be to to do this.

Okay. So everybody's happy today, basically? I hope so. Alright. Alright. Very good. Is there a motion to approve the COA consistent with the staff recommendation?

I'll move for approval with those recommendations listed.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Moving on to item five, file two five zero five four four. Resolution related to a certificate of appropriateness for an addition to the rehabilitation of the Newnemacher Estate, Wildenberg Hotel, and individually designated historic property at 3774 South 27th Street from Mandeep Dwan. One

second. So this project is coming back from a little over a year ago. Different developer, substantially similar concept. Trying to get through the PowerPoint here. Since this is only about a year, year and a half old, I hope I hope most of you generally remember this.

This is the Wildenberg on South 27th. It is a thorough and comprehensive rehabilitation. This is the general concept. This is what was approved last time. Not shown in this rendering is that there is a new 2nd 2nd Floor rear wing projecting out the back that will be the same width as the original building.

This is the condition of the property. They're restoring all the windows. Site plan, as with last time, site plan, and everything other than the historic building is not under our review because the, alderman at the time kind of, gerrymandered the designation. So we only have the building. There is there is some landscaping that, city development is reviewing and an outbuilding with some additional retail space that is also being built on parcel.

It's about a third of the size as, as it was with the last developer, but same design. You can see it at the top left. Existing floor plans. New floor plans. So the original structure is roughly 2,800 square feet.

The proposed addition is 14,000 square feet. It is the Ground Floor from the exterior is unchanged from last year. The only that was approved. The only difference is they are extending out the back of the 2nd Floor for, required additional egress and an additional meeting space. This roof plan kind of explains it best.

So as before, this is a re really good restoration project. They are doing more than we would ever typically require anyone to do, putting in the wood windows, restoring, restoring the entrances, reopening the sizes of the original window openings. I will mention again the addition is larger than we would typically approve, but it's reasonably set back from the street and is necessary to to this particular use. This is not part of a district, so it is not necessarily affecting other properties in the area with the scale of the addition. Here's the elevations.

I only have one critique on the 2nd 2nd Floor extension. It only has the one window that you can see in this elevation. It seems like it needs a little something more, maybe some clerestory windows that would be relatively well hit hidden just bringing light in up there. And the side new side entrance still seems a little too vertical. Rear rear and other side, there will be some false windows covered with shutters.

Tip typical Marvin spacer bar windows. So recommending approval again with con conditions, providing a complete materials list. Front patio must show some differentiation. New modular brick may be sufficient or may be distracting. We can work with the architect on those exact details.

Tweak the side entry for further differentiation from the front and to reduce vertical emphasis. Recommend widening it out and changing from a round transom to a rectangular transom. And standard masonry condition or standard masonry conditions for the historic portion of the building, they won't apply to the new section. We don't care what mortar they use with new brick on new brick. And natural nonclad windows trim and shutters for the original building.

They have done a little bit to the Windows on the first level of edition will be in kind of inset panels that will help differentiate it from the original core. So I don't think there is a need to have a different window system in the edition anymore.

K. Very good. You can identify yourself if you

with the architectural firm Stack Design Group.

K.

If you remember this project, we were working with, Rekesh Righam. His focus was the banquet hall, getting that for his restaurant business. While waiting to close on the property, the opportunity arose for him to get an immediate banquet hall actually, two banquet halls on a catering kitchen. He purchased the Crown Plaza Hotel on 13th Street. So, fortunately, we had a different client with an interest in this property that we had already worked with in the past, and he's very excited about it, and he jumped right in.

Same design. We did shake shrink the banquet hall by half. It was 10,000 square foot down to 5,000 and used the the space that we picked up for more of a sports bar feel. And he has a plan for a family member of his to run that. It'll be owner occupied.

Okay. Very good. Any questions or comments on this?

Is there a motion? Ask a quick question for the motion. Please. The rendering showed the addition, like, yellow and then the main thing yellow. I are you trying to copy that?

It'll be similar. It we won't use Crim City brick. Crim City has a a tumbled feel, very rounded edges and rough. Right. We will be using a modular wire cut gas fired instead of coal fired. It'll be a very modern, but similar in color, not to contrast in color. It'll be similar look, but it'll be clear what is addition and what is historic.

He has successfully found, I haven't seen what he plans for this project, but I've seen, what this architect has found for a reasonable modern modular approximating Cream City before, and that'll work just fine.

K. Did you ever discuss or talk about the matter of just making it a different looking building using a red brick or a black brick or something like that? Is that part of the discussions?

I think that would detract from from the building itself. But the if we add on to it two different

We don't feel

that that in get preservation about putting additions on. As you know, and we get different voices from the park service, from the state, from our commission, and so forth. I don't know there's an answer to that question. Seem like a good architect, and you've, you know, investigated that. There is something the reality of it is not exactly a neighborhood setting either on 27th Street.

That's actually a highway. I mean, it's it's really something where the context is not sort of your ordinary historic district context. And I'm willing to go with what the staff feels would be kind of appropriate, but it is interesting to kinda think about the medic because from the distance, from 27th Street, you're the the difference you're talking about, you know, a cleaner pressed brick and the old brick, you're not gonna see that as much. It's all gonna basically look yellow or whatever. And Grandeur.

If you're walking on a sidewalk by it, you would be able to appreciate that difference. But that's not where this thing is. This is sort of in a a bit, you know, observed from fast moving vehicles away. So at least to me, there's a little bit of that kind of funny matter of just sorta trying to get too close to the original. And we value our Cream City brick buildings, particularly the one down there.

Yeah.

Good grief. That's not in the middle of the city. That that thing is still there with that historic Cream City brick. It's sort of a very special component to that, a very special thing.

The existing brick will have multi tones, but a new brick will be solid one tone. I think that the difference will be more visible than you can envision on a rendering. But if we made it say red in the back, I I think that would make because we're putting 10,000 square feet onto this, it would really your eye would be drawn to that as opposed to the grandeur of this beautiful old building. So that's why we think staying close in in the look is is probably the best focus.

Yeah. I mean, I get both kinds of stories from the National Park Service. I get some that say very vehemently that it's cannot confuse the viewer. You've gotta make this you know, this is not a building from '8 your edition. It's not from 1880 or 1870 or whatever they were.

This has been built today and and that you can see then you're not trying to trick the onlooker. But there are other cases I see from the Park Service that sort of does not feel that that kind of high contrast is appropriate. You sort of they they explain it the way you did that you sort of wanna be sensitive. You don't wanna kind of be intrusive with an addition and so forth. So it's a very, very difficult and challenging matter to sort of make sure that you're not trying to trick people because it's a pretty special little thing there.

I'm surprised it survived. I know that place. I was there in the sixties running around there when I was a little kid, so I know that quite well. So you guys spoke with the applicant, right, about this whole matter looking too similar. And I'm gonna assume because you're advancing it here and recommending it that you feel that

it's Yeah. I don't think there's I think he's quite right that the size of the addition just basically prohibits that level of differentiation. Yeah. Other because you if you make it look like if if you do make it red brick, you're gonna be staring at the brick red brick and not the original building.

I'd stare at the original building. I'd say there's the red brick building. I don't care about that, the new building. I wanna see this thing from the eighteen seventies. Plus, the other thing to keep in mind, we haven't looked at it so closely. I'll take you got your word for when you look at it, but also that point of junction, you know, that point where they meet. And we've talked about how year decades ago, that was all that was done pretty poorly in the city of Milwaukee. Come on. Give that a little bit of thought of how you're gonna hit that original building. So I hope you've examined that, and there's sort of shadow lines and things like that that that don't have that abrupt look of the of the of the new yellow hitting the existing Cream City brick and so forth.

So I think that that's an important point too. And then somehow we don't have control or something over the site? Correct. In other words, we've done this in the past where, you know, okay. But let's see trees, shrubbery, you know, things like that at that joint, you know, where where the old and the new come together just as a, you know, technique to kinda blur the abrupt view of those two things coming together. But I think what you're saying is we we can't even make that part of the motion. Right.

I mean, you can you can encourage and send a message to city development on things you might like to see, but it won't be binding.

Right. Okay. So it could be part of a rec you know, a further condition or not a condition because it wouldn't be a condition. It would just simply be a recommendation.

Because it's in the Garden District. We're on the August 18 or fourteenth agenda in two weeks. Oh. They are governing all of that. So we have to go through that process too. You wanna discuss it with Kristen Connolly, add whatever you want to her list, but we have their recommendation for approval as well. Scott Spiker.

Okay. So you're gonna have them look at it too. Okay. Well, I'm good with that then. Yeah. Yep. There you go.

It's not that no one's looking at it. It's just not us.

Right. It's just not us. Okay. Good. Can

you tell me who what is what is the function of this new building?

The existing building will be mostly restaurant. There will be a 5,000 square foot banquet hall behind it and a sports bar sort of space, a bar, on the side. The 2nd Floor, without expanding the the 2nd Floor, it's unoccupiable. It only has one staircase, and there's no way to get down from it. So in order to make that space have lights on and activity inside of it, we did expand the 2nd Floor to make us a second means of egress. Otherwise, it would

just be unusable space.

So that was the reason why the 2nd Floor expanded.

And who's the owner developer of this?

Dar Mandeep Darwani owns about 12 gas stations in town. A couple commercial developments he he owns.

And the and the area is is excited about this?

He's very excited about it. He's taking pictures every time we meet with his son. His son will operate it.

But I'm saying because it's going to be such a I mean, it sounds pretty interesting to me, but the area will is supporting all of this.

We have Alderman Scott Spiker's support.

Uh-huh.

He's

with us. But he's just really a neighbor who's at home.

And then because of the nature of the location of this thing a little bit on, you know, high speed transit and so forth, just be very careful about our signage and glowing neon lights and all that kind of stuff. Now, again, I don't know if we have any say over it if we have only the building to deal with, but that's gonna be something in the future because you're right on twenty seventh. You want people to know they're at the right spot because you gotta go back a little bit from 27th to get to

Garden District, DIZ. Yeah. Development Incentive zone it's in Yeah. Covers all of that.

Yeah. Be cautious about that signage too.

Well, there is a development incentive zone down? Yes. Okay. Okay.

So DCD does have pretty good oversight over the rest of the Right. Rest of the parcel.

And that goes to the plan commission then?

Plan commission if they need any variances.

I see.

Okay. They don't need variances. No plan

oversight. Yeah.

Too bad. You got more groups to go through

than We

do. Not just us.

So Alright. Well, very good. Are there any any other questions? If not, is there a motion?

I'll move.

Your second? Second. All in favor? Aye.

Aye.

Alright. Moving on to item six, file two five zero four seven four. Resolution relating to the permanent historic designation of the South Superior Street Butler's Cottage Historic District on the East Side Of Superior Street between East Russell Avenue and East Ontario Street, excluding 2538 South Superior Street and 14th Automatic District.

Andrew was first. Pardon me. So, I have all the repeat items today. We first saw this district come in in late twenty twenty due to a a possible demolition of one of these houses that, ultimately never happened. Since then, there has been a lot split, and a new house is under construction As of about a week and a half ago when I, went by, the foundation, was excavated, but that was as far as it had gotten.

Permits are issued and everything. It will it will the new house will be built regardless of what we do today.

So

this is a district of, eight houses on Superior Street, going south from Russell Avenue, including the new construction building. There's an aerial view showing it. It is right next to the condominium tower in Bayview. It's actually on the same block as the condo tower. The concern last time was about $25.30, which

Mhmm.

Has had some investment made into it into the meantime, but is still part of this district to protect it in the future. So this part of Bayview around the nominated district is the oldest residential section of the original village platted in 1868 by the Milwaukee Iron Company. It's located about three and a and three quarter three and a quarter miles south southeast from where we are now. Company was established by Eber Brock Ward in 03/08/1867 as part of his vast empire of iron iron and steel mills, railroads, mines, and lumber companies that were headquartered in Detroit, Michigan. He also had mills in the Chicago area.

The sprawling plant went into, operation 04/08/1868. First blast furnace went into service April 1870. He selected this location just South East Of Milwaukee in the town of Lake for cheap land, access to water and rail transportation, and room to grow a community that would be near the plant and avoid city taxes. So mostly rural area and bought out three farms to do this. Part of what the development plan was 85 acres for the plant, which is now parkland at the there's really nothing left of the plant anymore.

However, these houses were originally developed and, as far as we can tell, built by the Milwaukee Iron Company for the, for their workers. Mills in this area additionally made, railroad rails and were first said to be the first in the country to use the new Bessemer process on a large scale. The Bayview plant became the second largest rolling mill in the country and the largest employer in Milwaukee County. This resulted in a workforce in the thousands. Workers who specialized in iron and steel production were imported from England, Ireland, and Wales initially only to be supplemented with other eminent groups, later primarily Poles and Italians.

So Bayview was sort of a company town. The iron work the iron mill owned pretty much everything and plat and platted things out. But if you could afford to buy a lot, you were allowed to. Offered lots for churches to be established. Forbade the use use manufacture or sale of alcohol aside from and workers were free to buy their own lots, construct their own houses, or build or rent loans such as these from the company.

The company did not intend to own the properties in perpetuity nor did it control the commercial activity beyond that deep restriction of no alcohol. Workers were not forced to purchase goods from company owned stores and were paid in, actual normal money rather than any sort of script system. By 1868, a village had developed up around the plant, mostly small cottages costing $500 each, exceedingly neat in appearance and comfortably furnished. Within two months, it was said that the village will contain seven or 800 inhabitants,

all

of whom just arrived their support from the rolling mill, and that has born born out true in census records and city directories. First twenty, thirty years of all of these houses, they were all mill workers. So the nominated properties along the east side of the 2500 Block Of Superior Street have been called, affectionately, Puddlers Cottages, so called due to their single story and occupancy by workers of the Milwaukee Iron Company. One of the jobs at the rolling mill was classified as a puddler and city directories that confirm that there were puddlers occupying these cottages for many, many years. Publars, their definition of their job was to use a long metal rod to stir the molten iron in the bottom of the of the furnaces.

Publars earned more than $5 a day, which is exorbitant from the eighteen seventies. Other occupations at the rolling mill include rollers, roughers, beaters, hammer pin, knobblers, picklers, and shearmen. And the term puddlers cottages came to be associated with these modest cottages built by built by the company for the workers. Here's a current view of the properties. There is one significant garage at the southernmost house that is a contemporary to the original relatively contemporary to the original construction is documented as a nineteenth century structure.

It's unusual to have for someone to have had their own barn on that this block at that time, and it is intended to be preserved. Some of the buildings in question. And this photo, the one

at the bottom right where

you can see the, old vinyl siding peeling off as part of why there was concern the last time and continuing concern, it is in good ownership now, and there appears to be no demolition threat anymore, but one never knows in the future. The southernmost house was first occupied by Horace Rising, who had a barn during his ownership. We believe the current barn is roughly in its 1894 state with some modern modifications such as drive in overhead doors. A view of Eberbrock Ward and the mill. The cottages would be towards the top of the the image.

Actually, no. They would be that way down this way. Period. Bird's eye view showing the cottages. These were, like, the were some of the closest housing to the mill. And in fact, the Publer's, building where they where Publer's would have worked is one of the closest buildings. It's this yellow yellow one with the pink appendages here.

Tim, can can you, explain where this new house is going in in relationship to what you're showing us?

Okay. I will get back. Let me get a map. Getting on the presentation. Well, the short answer is it is going in immediately north of the house with, the carriage barn.

Is that because there was a one of these houses that was there that was torn down?

Yes. But it was it was torn down in the nineties.

And it was just and it was just a empty lot?

It's been an empty lot since the nineties. Yes. It was recently parceled off, so it was built up from the house to the south so that it was buildable. But, yes, it's been vacant for roughly thirty years.

And it has nothing to do with the historic nature, possibly the permanent historic designation today?

No. Because We are including it in the district because it is because it's unavoidable. It is one house in from the, possibly the most interesting house in the district. So hard to show, but it will be new house will be right here.

And and and and again, because I know this is gonna come up as a discussion point. It there was nothing designated historically designated. This is the first time.

Yes. The designation, got through HPC last time. Common council chose never to vote on it.

And the common council did what?

Chose never to vote on it till the nomination died.

It was recommended Voted

on it.

You voted down. You voted on it.

Right, Sam. We made the recommendation. They they didn't even take it up as

They did not take it up. There was some owner opposition at the time. It was discussed with the older woman that the best path forward was if the nomination was to go away without a vote, then there would be no waiting period for resubmitting it at some later point.

So this could go this recommendation that you're asking for could could go back to the common council?

It will.

And maybe the same thing will happen?

I

I mean, what's changed?

This time, we have not received one single owner objection. There are probably people in the audience, but we have not received anything in writing from any anyone objecting to the district this time. It will the older woman will have some influence. However, Alderman Baumann is now head of the committee that this will, proceed to.

That's your presentation.

I could keep, going, but I think that's sufficient. You Okay. Pretty much all of you

have heard this

This is a this does require a public hearing. So, their motion to open the public hearing? I'll vote. Second?

Second.

All in favor say aye. Aye. The public hearing is open. Anybody having testimony? Come on down.

Good

afternoon.

Jeffrey Reimald. My wife is joining me as well. We're the owners of 2508 South Superior. We are the third Butler's Cottage Inn from the street. We were also part of five years ago deep designation. We have a series of conflicts, the idea of how this would proceed. As far as I know, presenting information to this hearing is whether or not to the properties fall under the criteria of historic. I have a couple notes to that. All of our other observations and criticisms to the challenge would come at the whether or not the council would approve it, not necessarily to the board saying the historic nature of the buildings. We're very, very aware of the age of our houses.

We're very aware of the condition of our houses. We own them. We live in them every day. These houses were built as small temporary parcels for a conflict to a community that needed workers. If you'd ask the people that lived in them first if they would still be standing today, I highly doubt very few would agree that they necessarily should be or would be.

We as homeowners have committed to keeping these houses intact, in frame, and in good quality. One of the reasons why this neighborhood is noticed is because we all take very good care of our homes. As you drive down Superior Street, we are noticed. We are not only just noticed because our houses exist, because of the shape of them, but the age of them, because they're maintained. Everything from our trees to our landscaping to our fences to the coloration into the vibrant community we've created is a testament that we are taking care of this neighborhood.

What we would like to not do is to see a designation place that makes that even more difficult. These homes were designed for a short term solution to a long term problem. Milwaukee needed to grow. Now the only reason these homes stand and can hold our families, which are constantly growing, is because of modernization. Have we done it with respect?

Have we done it with proper design in order to keep this community that we all fell in love with? That's why we live here in Milwaukee and why we live in Bayview. These modernizations with respect to history are what allowed us to live in these homes. If it was not for an upgraded windows, if it was not for an upgraded materials, by god, we wouldn't even be able to heat these homes. If it was not for changing roof lines internally in order to keep the respect, we would not be able to heat these homes.

Most of our modernization is electrical. It is mildly cosmetic, however, drastically different from the original. What these homes hold in common, if you wanna bring that photo up, is our roof lines, is the size of our homes, and the nature of the way they fit on the lots? And so what we're asking is with respect to how we have already taken care of Milwaukee and taken care of our street, is to allow us to continue to do it with the materials, the designs, and the way we see fit. So much of Bayview, especially in the neighborhoods surrounding us, unfortunately, have been cursed into being bought up by large groups of homeowners that are using these for not only short term rentals, but for permanent long term rentals.

And we have a very, very strong, strong South Shore neighborhood in our area, and we wanna see these homes be maintained with the potential for growth in order that not just the building gets preserved, but the idea of community and the idea of family that exist in our area can also be maintained.

So that's Okay. Thank you.

That's what we're going with. Your honor Thank you for your time, Jacob.

I should have mentioned before you testify thank you. I mean, it is what exactly we're here for as the commission. Basically, the commission's job is to determine whether one or more criteria or historic designation of a district are satisfied. That's pretty much it. This commission relies on the staff report, which outlines the history of the district, talks about the architecture, talks about the age, all those types of factors.

That's the sole issue that the commission is here to decide, whether the district this district or any district qualifies under one of nine criteria for designation. At that point, the commission takes a vote to either recommend or not recommend designation to the full council, period. We do not look at cost of construction, cost of renovation. Vinyl windows are cheaper than restoring old window. That's none of our consideration at this stage.

Solely whether the district nominated satisfies one or more of the criteria in the ordinance. Once you get to the zoning committee where this would next go, if it is recommended, then other factors can be considered by the zoning committee members who are all members of the common council. And then that body will make a recommendation to the full council, which would then take up the matter and vote on the recommendation for designation. So it's a three step process. The commission hears first, the zoning committee is second, and then assuming the recommendation to the full council for for creation of a district.

Full council will then vote on the matter. So that's that's the process. So a lot of the issues we often get into at these public hearings is issues of cost, which is technically not relevant today. Just just let everybody know that. But thank you. I think you understand because you've through this before.

Absolutely. Yes.

I I should mention that in this case, I did have done some unusual things with the preservation guidelines and have stated explicitly that, any siding that is existing at this time can be replaced in kind in the future. If they wanna do something else, it has to go back to a historic Blackford book. But because of the nature of these particular houses and the way they have evolved, there is no reason to restrict them from keeping the same kind of siding they have now. That would be part of the design time?

Yes. Okay.

So this, district will have its own set of design guidelines. Is that what

you're They've been they've been customized more than usual.

Okay. Well, that's good. Okay.

Anybody else wish Thank

you for your time.

Go on down, please. Who here is who else is on this item in the audience? One more.

That's very nice. Well, no. Wait wait till

you get on the record here. No. Come on. Come on in here.

No. You're out.

No. No. You gotta you gotta take a seat at the microphone. No. No.

Name and address, please.

Joe Patrick. 2552 South Superior. I've been in the same house going on forty years. So I know a little bit of history of these pedal Peddler houses. I vehemently disagree with what he said about that new building, and I can prove this. I am I am somebody here. I'm not a nobody. Okay? I'm the person in in 2021 that made an application to, Harlan. K?

Why did I do it? Because I put money down on 2530, put $10,000 down to buy that house. Now here's the kicker. The lock came with it, but I couldn't sell it. I could not sell that lot. This is important. And I asked Sherry, Melozza, and Scott, the owners of it. It was Sherry's dad, Branchy, that bought it. That lot when the public house either burned down and forget what happened to that house that was there before. It was a public house.

He bought that lot. He couldn't sell it for two decades. Why? Because he was told he had to petition the city to rezone it. Who was he told this by? A realtor. This went on for twenty years. Okay? So then I come along thinking I can sell the lot. Why not? You know, you would pay a lot off the house. The house was being sold for $210,000. Can you believe that? So I went to US Bank. They said, no.

I couldn't do it because you could not build it's not a buildable lot, mostly because Ted Sievers' house is about this far away from it. And then Johnny's house shows that it's about this far, but all the other ones are about like that. It's three of them too close. Okay? So, again, I couldn't get that.

So then that was the reason I wanted to have this rezoned, to get the whole thing in here, you know, because it it just seemed like somebody's gonna get that lot and build whatever they wanted and then offer money to all these other houses and build something big, the whole darn thing. Okay? So Carlin was very helpful. I spent $25 on it, did it. So I'm I'm the culprit. You know? If people wanna get blame me for this whole thing, I'm the dude. So then only you know, few years later, right, back again. I was surprised that that lot was sold. Okay?

I I asked Jeremy, McGovern. He does history with the Milwaukee preservation, and he still hasn't gotten back to me on their open records. Can you give me the the whole thing on this thing about why that Butler House why that lot couldn't be sold? Didn't do it. Can we interrupt you?

Think we're a little far off field. Mean, the the point of the public hearing is to No. Gather testimony whether the criteria for historic district is met or not met, not whether or not a given lot is buildable or not. I mean, I'm not sure. I see the

Well, I think it's illegal because they did not petition the city.

Testimony is only relevant if it relates to whether this district meets the criteria for historic designation or it doesn't. Right. We're not talking about zoning.

No. I understand. I just wanted to bring it up and maybe you can recommend where I could go next because I think it's illegal being

I would talk to your local alders.

She doesn't do anything about it. I have I have

Then you may have no remedy. Pardon me? Then you may have no remedy.

That's not true. It's illegal. I can prove it. Okay. I can prove it. I don't understand why anyone doesn't listen to me about this.

K. Thank you for your testimony. Anybody else wish to testify? Come on down, please.

Thank you, Mr. Bowen. That was that was not fair whatsoever. They're right there. Name is.

Taylor Youngling, owner of 2512 South Superior, the Red House. In addition to saying that I I would like to mostly second everything that my neighbor, Jeff, said before, and I don't wanna keep you guys because I understand there's some parameters in what we're supposed to be discussing here. Would this be an appropriate forum to inquire as to some more specifics on how or what customized

Yes.

Things are. Are you are you Tim? Yes. Tim, I good to put in a base with the email or the the call. Sort of piggybacking off of what Jeff mentioned before about how we, you know, love this neighborhood. You know, my fiance and I just moved in less than a year ago, but I joke with her that I would like to die in this house. You know? Like, we were very set in in honoring the neighborhood as it is. And in the I've got a copy of the older guidelines, which I gather may be more restrictive than what they They were definitely loosened. I guess, again, just to be conscientious of time.

As far as building upwards in, like, in addition, like, upstairs, staying sensitive to whatever design policy the council seems to think is right. What what can we expect that to look like? Because, obviously, the the original here that I've got from 2021, pretty much nothing.

So That one, I largely kept out the back. Absolutely no no issues. Up, Highly discouraged, but perhaps if it were pushed back far enough, it would be doable. Any addition is really subject to the design approval of this committee. It's it's so I would say up is unlikely, but not impossible.

Okay. Well, that helps me. K. Thank you. Anyone else? Anyone online? It says there

was only three of you. Come on down.

Me finish up. Only just three.

Wait until you're on the record, please, with the microphone.

Is there a different set of design rules for this go around versus

the

last go around?

Yes. They have changed.

Okay. Could we get copies of those? We were presenting them last time. This time, we just got a letter saying about the date in question.

They are in the letter to our system as Sorry.

You guys will be talking.

Leave an email, and I will send them out.

Okay. Thank you. There was one other thing I lost. So as it seems as Joe has made his presentation that this was restarted as a proposition for historic bid because of a small amount of neighborhood animosity of how things are changing. I just want that to be noted for the record that this has come in before this committee, again, not necessarily for the exact reasons that it's in front of the committee, but the reasons for this was a house that's being built in between all these puddlers cottages, and this has zero effect on whether that house is going to be built or whether or not we'll be in our neighborhood at this point. And that's obviously for a different committee as far as I can tell.

Well, it's interesting you mentioned that had this been designated three years ago Mhmm. That lot would have been subject to the design guidelines. And what I perceive is people's concern about what's being built wouldn't have been built that way?

Yes. What I have seen of the design is not something that would be likely to pop pass this by

why historic districts make sense in my estimation. It enables people who are invested, especially owner occupants, who've spent money to do things right, may can't control what happens next door to them so that what happens next door to them doesn't challenge the integrity of what they've done.

Understood.

That's exactly what that's one of the very good reasons why historic districts are effective in maintaining the quality of neighborhoods because there's consistency and there's the opportunity for people who can object to what's happening next door.

The lot that was

you don't have.

So the lot that was created in between the two lots that was once tied, as Joe mentioned, nonsellable, nonbuildable, would that have fallen under the duress when that address didn't exist yet?

Well, I don't know anything about the zoning part of it. I mean, how how that I I don't know that I accept his premise that it was originally unbuildable. You can get dimensional variances if it's an issue of setbacks.

Understood. I I'm not sure And that's not for this meeting either.

Let me on that. Was there a house on that lot?

It burned down a long time ago.

So, really, what the chair is trying to say that if, in fact, this was a historic district, And it burned down. House burned down, this historic house, that whatever was to have been built there would have had to come to this committee

Right.

And and go go through tremendous scrutiny so it would fit in perfectly Mhmm. To what you guys all love.

Correct.

And see, interesting thing is is that every all of you are saying how much you love the area, and the area is exquisite.

There was two propositions last time. There was two separate applications for historic. One of them that has nothing to do to us or my neighbors that are speaking also got also did not go through, which would have covered the house being built and the house in question that was part of the same process. This isn't just a one envelope. And I also admit that if this was brought before as an individual address per house, you might get a number of them that go along with it more probably. The fact is that we're all being lumped in together. We all have very, very different reasons why we do things. All of our properties are in unique situations, but these are all being lumped together as a as a as a single cast.

Is describing something like this before. That is is that you are taking the guidelines and adapting them to or, being creative around how they will apply to this beautiful area. Yes. So that some of these I mean, some of these concerns that, you know, can we build up? Can we enlarge?

You'll have a better chance. I mean, what having a new house there is is a travesty. I mean, I don't I also this is not the place to be discussing how it happened. It sounds I mean, I asked the alderman.

I'll be interested in reading the new set of guidelines then.

Happen. Okay. In this way, if it was designated. And and that's the interesting piece of what's all being presented today.

Okay.

It's I

I also need to go through the new set of guidelines that I was unaware of. I'm basing most of this on 2021.

Too. I don't remember. Have you done this before, Steph?

I mean, the standard guidelines are always evolving, but this is a very unique district compared to what we usually designate. So I I lighten things more than usual.

So it would be wonderful for all of us to understand how in other words, we're not just so you use this rigid, commission over here and rigid staff that are really trying to work with all of you that obviously adore the area. I I think that if everyone could get educated

Yeah.

Not be afraid that this could be the best thing that could happen to your area.

Well, then I would ask if maybe we can get time to review these this new information for this gets moved forward with.

I want to make this point also. I don't even know if there's a reason to change the guidelines. I mean, we're here as a committee for that purpose. The guidelines aren't black and white. We look at and we consider things that might be new materials on the market that could be acceptable. We look for conditions like a bunch of small cottages like this. We don't see that around the city. I mean, that's why we're seven people contemplating this stuff about the guidelines. I don't even know if it's necessary to change the guidelines. It is important to perhaps convey to you and others in the room, you know, that there's there's an openness to, you know, working with us about the peculiarities of your guideline, about your district.

We have lots of strange districts in the city. I mean, we can't make guidelines for every single district. That's why we're here understandable. That's why we're here discussing. I mean, I okay. It's good that you guys made the changes that I think in the spirit of applicant friendliness, they're they're doing this. I I I'm kind of from feeling that we created it. We put a lot of thought into the guidelines. Okay. I would like to that. And I think sometimes the city and applicants and district and that's why we've had objections. I've sat in many committees and meetings over the years. South Layton Boulevard, they didn't wanna Carl and I sat a number of meetings there to try to get South Layton Bowling in a a local district. No way they didn't want it. Okay.

You're gonna have what's gonna happen to you guys now in Publix. Same thing on on Newbury. I sat at Lake Park several meetings to get Newbury Avenue. You know Newbury. Everybody knows Newbury. To get that locally designated. Nope. The neighbor's gonna have nothing to do with it. And they made the case that they're affluent people, and they're only gonna do the right thing. They're only gonna put Spanish tile. They're not gonna put in substitute materials. Well, okay. But, you know, good luck. I doubt. Should

that see the house that was butchered.

Yeah. I mean, it's and we make the k. We go before, you know, neighborhood committees and so forth and make that case, but there's still a very kinda strong opposition of people in those districts that they don't want another authority body, you know, telling them. And that's what the perception is. And I think, as Sally said, there's a wealth of information with this committee, Mhmm. With those guys, with the staff, with history, with new technologies, just the stuff I do at UWM with my new technologies institute. It's just a shame that that neighborhood gets so paranoid about being a district when they have this resource here at city hall.

Our largest red flags were our preventativeness of building onto a second story, which is clear as day in the original set. Yeah. And the fact that every building material on our house is not permitted. Everything from our windows to our gables to some of our roofing to our siding, there are almost zero materials on our houses that are under that are currently approved.

So you And, generally, the guidelines say that if you touch it and you're gonna change it, you have to do it properly. But as you explained twenty minutes ago, that's gonna be slightly suspended for this. That if you take off the vinyl side and you wanna fix you can put some vinyl back, replace it like with like. So that in itself is an acknowledgment that from time to time, we need to consider the circumstances and maybe move slightly from the rigid guidelines.

That's understandable.

You when we approved the addition to the Wildenberg Hotel. Right? Mhmm. And you can see that that is a completely different kind of construction than the original hotel. Doesn't mean that you are gonna be, you know, pigeonholed. You will not be able to do any additions to your buildings. Absolutely doesn't mean that. We understand that time evolves, and you need to Right. Evolve the building

in time. Concern is half of the houses under extreme neglect will stay under extreme neglect because modernization or maintenance will then fall under the category of improvement, correcting building materials, things of that nature. I mean, our houses were exceptionally inexpensive up until four years ago, which is a inexpensive. And by nature, Bayview is going through a massive struggle of neglect, lack of upkeep, and things going by the wayside of absent tenant owners. And I fear that any any little amount, whether it's right, whether it's the correct way to do it, whether it's benevolent, any more difficulties in Bayview maintaining its quality of housing is going to just continue to push it in the direction of the decay that we're already starting to see.

I wanna also say this because you've said it now a couple times about it's impossible now to modernize these things. I mean, that is throws a dark cloud on preservation. If we said this or had some kind of authority to prevent people from modernizing their buildings, in other words, plumbing, electric, HVAC furnace, all that kind of stuff, there's no way you could live in any of these things. What we have or what we could have here is at least some sort of input about the exterior appearance. And I don't know, you know, if that really because you've said this now a couple times, modernizing your houses that we're we would be restricting the modernization of houses. We don't get inside these houses at all. You do whatever you want. You wanna make it a discotheque, it won't zone for that. But you wanna make it a discotheque, go ahead. All we're doing is

the street.

And you were you've been sitting here a while. You saw some of what we talked about with the the house in Bobstadt Concordia. You couldn't see that's a kind of cool that that garage is still there. Pretty amazing. But we've made the case. There's no public right away viewing of the thing. We took the we take the dormer off, put a new door on. I mean and we would probably, I would think, use that same kind of sensitivity, for instance, with the Butler's you know, that's you said people drive up Superior. It's unbelievable you see that. But there's spots to the east and where the high rises and so forth that you can make some modifications for access or garbage. You know? Yeah. All this stuff, you know, you gotta live in a modern what we we're not expecting to live in 1857 or whatever.

Right. I guess maybe some of

these We just like to guide people into preserving what you think. And you've said a couple kind of almost a you don't use the word, a kind of postcard image. Here's Bayview. This is unbelievable. There are no and I think that's what I want to say that this part of this hearing is to tell us or to make the case that it doesn't follow the three criteria the staff put here. Okay, and we've had that over the years. So no, there's a million, you know, federal houses like that. This is nothing unique about that federal style. That's what usually happens in these hearings that they kind of applicants who oppose it will question the validity of those. Okay?

This is and the three, and I've been reviewing them as you've been talking. They seem very solid to me. This is not we don't you can't come here and say, no. We got puddler cottages all over the place. Wow. We had a dozen steel mills. This is nothing this is unique. This is incredible right here. And it really, at least to me, follows those criteria. So I'll say it right now, and I'll be in favor of the designation if the if the rest of the board feels the same.

Okay. Well, thank you.

Thank you.

Alright. So is there a motion to close the public hearing? So moved.

Second.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye. Okay. The matter is before us. Any motions?

K. I'll make a motion now.

I'll second it.

And and using the I won't explain them all, but using the three criteria that are stated pretty clearly and that I've been looking at last twenty minutes. I think they satisfy those three criteria.

As an owner of historic buildings, I look at it this way. These buildings belong to the history of Milwaukee. They belong to the history of our community. We occupy and steward them right now. It's our time. It's our place. We need to do the work, and we need to spend the money. And so this is an example of one of those treasures that belong to the community and the history of our city. It's really worthy of doing.

And does the movement, include a finding that this will have no impact on affordable housing? Joe. Is that part of your motion?

No. It's not part of my motion. But, it's a friendly

It is within

I believe

What is that?

Patient does need the commission On

page page one, that is addressed. Low

and moderate income. The

effect on the potential effect on low and moderate income housing is addressed on page one.

Oh, it is. Yes. Report? Yep. Okay. Oh, very good. 49.

So that motion is made and seconded. Is there any further discussion? All in favor?

Wait, Bob. As as long as you're bringing out this low low and moderate income, what's what would be the market rate market price, I should say, in terms of sale of one of these houses today?

It just said $2.10.

Oh, I I didn't know if that the current number.

The two houses that have sold in the last five years sold above the median price for the

city. Sold above it? Yes.

Okay. Any further discussion? All in favor, say aye. Aye. Any opposed?

Nay.

Is that a no? Or

That's a nay. I'm opposed.

Okay. Very good. Well, then it passes on a six one vote. Alright. Moving on to well, that's a kid. This is the recommendation that I've made to the zoning neighborhood and development committee, which will probably be heard at our next meeting, which is in mid September. Correct? Yes. Alright. Moving on to item seven, file two five zero four nine six, resolution granting permanent historic designation to the West Avenues West Historic District on blocks bound by West Wisconsin Avenue to West State Street and North 22nd Street and North 27th Street in the 4th Alderman District.

Thank you. So this is the West Avenues West proposed West Avenues West Historic District, bringing up the the boundary map just to show you the general area. So it it does encompass a large part of the western part of what is now Avenues West, stretching from North 22nd Street with one property on North 22nd Street all the way to North 27th Street, and with, you know, some properties in the 23 North 23rd, North 24th, and North 27th, but encompassing all of the blocks, from the 2,400 to 2,600 block of West Wisconsin, West Wells, West Kilborn, and West State Streets. It is a large district, so I'll I'll try to be quick with the history and and touch on, some of the properties, but, obviously, won't be able to, touch on all of the properties within the proposed district. But, we're looking at, 114 parcels, with a date of construction for, the period of significance from circa 1885, probably a little bit before that, to 1931.

There are 28 properties that are non single or two family structures that were as built, and those consist of commercial structures, institutional structures, and apartment buildings. There are 23 vacant parcels in here. There are 12 apartment buildings that were constructed after the period of cons significance. Those are largely post World War two, two story apartment buildings. Six of the properties within the boundaries are already listed on the National Register of Historic Places, and there are three, properties that are individually locally designated as historic right now.

A brief overview of the styles. It really tells the story of the development of the West Side, near West Side Of Milwaukee, beginning with the Queen Anne and Victorian Gothic structures. The largest architectural style represented in the district is Queen Anne with 31 houses and one commercial building that are Queen Anne. Second most popular style in the district is arts and crafts, and that's fairly well split between the remaining styles. Neoclassical shows up largely in the departure apartment buildings, Mediterranean revival in the commercial and apartment buildings, some gabled elves, Victorian Gothic, Foursquare Craftsman.

There are two really nice art deco structures, two German Renaissance revivals, one prairie school or one prairie style and a bungalow. And I won't be able to discuss, the importance and fully discuss the importance and the work of all of the architects that are, that are have structures designed within the district, but it really runs the who's who of, architects in Milwaukee, operating in Milwaukee from the late nineteenth century for the through the first two or three decades of the twentieth century, including some heavy hitters like Ferry and Koss, James Douglas, Otto Strach, Eschweiler and Eschweiler, Wimbrooming, Eisner and Holst, Schmetzky and Liebert, George Zagle, Henry Messer and Son Messmer and Son. So some general, history of of the area that we're looking at today. The area, that we're talking about was opened up for, settlement when it was platted in 1835. Initially, it was sold in large parcels to pioneer farmers and land speculators.

Much of the land in the proposed district today belonged to Cyrus Hawley. After 1949, the lands, sold quickly in this part of town because the Milwaukee, Madison, and Watertown Plank Road companies plans to construct plank roads on the near West Side. Subdivisions in the area began to be platted in the eighteen fifties and continued into the eighteen sixties excuse me, through the eighteen eighties. You can see this map from 1869. There's only a small area that's been platted for subdivision.

The remaining parcels in our general area that we're talking about were were still large tracts of land. As the pop city's population increased, new home sites were needed, and the city's boundaries were extended in all directions. On the West Side, the city's boundaries pushed to North 27th Street, which is, the boundary of our district today. Neighborhoods developed on the West Side in fairly rigid social, economic, and ethnic lines. North Of Kilborn Avenue, the wards were predominantly German American, and South Of Kilborn Avenue, the wards were predominantly Anglo American.

Neighborhood development on the West Side after 1880 was largely based on segregation of land uses and income levels. So, it was primarily, the classes that stuck together, and and largely the neighborhood businesses, were absent as new residential moved in. In the period from 1880 to 1910, the city was experiencing a dramatic rise in population, from a surge of post, civil war foreign immigration. New housing was badly needed for the rising middle class and upper class as well as newcomers. Of note is Grand Avenue, which was really a neighborhood onto its own.

It was a a residential street of some of the city's finest mansions in The States, comparable only to Prospect Avenue on the East Side. Joseph Kelvich built his grand house on Cedar Street, which is now Kilborn Avenue, hoping that that street would become, one of the premier streets, in the area of, Grand Avenue or Highland Boulevard. That didn't quite turn out to be the case, though the 2400 block is really an exceptional block of of what's now Kilborn Avenue, and we'll talk a little bit about that as well. The older neighborhoods, because of their stable character, did not provide sufficient supply for cheap housing and to accommodate the need for working class neighborhoods. So by the nineteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, large apartment construction was really starting to occur on the vacant lots in the neighborhood, initially on vacant lots, later as infill.

But by the nineteen tens and twenties, the elite West Side neighborhoods were starting to be in decline. The sons and daughters of the prominent families that founded, the houses on Highland Boulevard, Concordia, and Grand Avenue, were starting to move out. The the wealthier classes were moving to more, quote, desirable areas along the East Side Lakeshore, and north suburbs such as Wauwatosa. And that can trend continued for the first decades. By the mid nineteen forties, many of the former mansions had been converted to grooming houses, and institutional uses were starting to develop in in the area.

See, the Sanborn map from 1894 shows that, there are still some vacant parcels. The, Chandine Mansion is in the Lower East, corner. Those were really the the largest and grandest of the mansions built in Milwaukee. It was, later torn down, and, that land is now, where the former Milwaukee County Emergency Hospital is. We'll talk a little bit more about that.

By 1898, even more infill development or more initial development had occurred. And then taking a look at the Sanborn from 1910, a vast majority of the parcels had been constructed on at that time. And as I mentioned earlier, the the architectural styles, really, help tell the tale of the development of this area, beginning with small Victorian Gothic workers' cottages that are much more modest in in design and size. As more wealth, move to the area, you get these exuberant and grand Queen Anne's. You can see the Kelvilidge mansion, on the lower left, which is one of the city's best German Renaissance revival houses, and was constructed in the late eighteen nineties.

And then as you get into the twentieth century, you get to see some great arts and crafts residential structures, some American four squares, neoclassical buildings, start to show up in some of the apartment development. Mediterranean revival is seen in, commercial and, apartment buildings. And then this is the Wisconsin Telephone Company toll building on the 20 26th between Kilborn And Scott, which is a great Eshweiler and Eshweiler Art Deco, one of the two Art Deco buildings in the in the district. Some of the earliest structures in the district were these, rather modest Victorian Gothic, Gothic revival structures that would have been built for, you know, where the working class in in the area. Both of these examples are on, North 23rd Street.

This is the Frattinger House, which was locally designated in 2017 but is a grand Queen Anne residence clad with wood clabbard, with all of the elevations of which are heavily ornamented, and three of the four elevations feature a large base. So it's a really great representative example of, mid eighteen eighties residential construction, construction construction along with the Turner House, which is on North 25th Street, designed by James Douglas, also locally designated by HPC, this one in 2005. Fred Severe House is about three houses up, also on 25th on the corner of 25th And Wells. Architect is unknown, but it's listed on the National Register individually listed '18 excuse me, 1986, and was later home of architect Henry c Coke. So he lived in this from the early nineteen hundreds until his death.

Guy who designed City

Hall? The guy who designed City Hall up there. So it's possible that he was the architect of that house. The city didn't require building permits until 1888, so a lot of the architect unknown buildings in this district that are of very high quality and high design may have been architect design, most likely were architect design. But without building permits required, we aren't sure who the architects of those structures were.

There's a rid the South Side of the 2,400 of West Kilborn is really a fantastic cluster of intact Queen Anne houses, some of which were designed by Carl Ringer, one of which was William William Devlar. These all show fantastic Queen Anne three part color scheme. These had seen redevelopment, reinvestment in the early part of the February. I believe a number of these had at one point been owned by the city, so the city undertook, some redevelopment of these properties, in the early February. Another wonderful cluster of Queen Anne houses is the eight hundred block of North twenty sixth Street.

Three of these properties were moved, and then Neighborhood Improvement Development Corp expended money to rehabilitate these structures. They largely had had inappropriate siding and modifications and had really been brought back to their architectural splendor, with with those redo with the rehabilitation that happened in the twenty tens. And then the south side of the 2600 Block is also a nice cluster of Queen Anne's. The blue house in the middle was designed by Ferry and Klas. The one, with the green gable was designed by Alfred Klas.

We've got, you know, as I mentioned, one of the finest German Renaissance revival houses in the city, the the Kelvlage House, designed by Dorothea and Joseph Kelvlage, and designed by Otto Strak in 1896. Strak, well known for his work at the Pabst Brewery, also the architect of the Pabst Theater, designed a number of Pabst tighthouses and saloons around Southeastern Wisconsin. It's a two and a half story German Renaissance revival house, clad with tan pressed brick. The facade is formal and symmetrical, with brick laid and striped pattern that marks the 1st Floor walls, which are pierced by large elliptically arched windows, with terracotta moldings. The 2nd Floor has more carved heads and that surmount rectangular sash windows.

It has a wide cornice with interlaced skull freeze, pressed tin lions that watch over the house from each corner of the cornice. You can see some more of the architectural detailing here. It's got the porch decorated with eight half figure Atlantis of terracotta, which you can

see in the right

hand the right hand image here. Kevlidge was the secretary treasurer of Hoffman and Billings Manufacturing Company. Following their ownership, the house was briefly owned by the Milwaukee Ku Klux Klan beginning in 1924 as a clubhouse. By 1927, the mansion was purchased purchased by Reverend Otto Houser and the directors of Rogers Roger Williams Memorial Hospital and Home for the Aged, and was used for hospital uses until it was subdivided in 1938 and used as a rooming house. It's been, turned back into a single family house, since the mid nineteen seventies.

And I should mention that it is also individually listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Getting into the arts and crafts style, we've got the Frank Leather House designed by Ferry and Klass in nineteen o one, which is a nice, brick structure on the 1st Floor, with stucco above. It's got all original windows, and grand chimney off to the right of the facade. 2640 West Kilbourne. The architect is unknown on this, but it's a nice, house clad with stucco with half half, faux half timbering on the 2nd Floor in in the gables.

American Foursquare, this house designed in 1914. We've got a handful of, American Foursquares. This one in nineteen o seven designed by architect George Shlay. One Prairie style, Leiser and Holst '19, '12, designed for Ernst Seidentoft. It's now the Amalgated Transit Union, Union Building.

It has a large, parking lot just to the south here. Entrance has been infilled, but largely an intact prairie style. We've got some great neoclassical examples, John Hungholz with the Ellington Court Flats apartments, and Hood and Tullgren, nineteen o four, the Kenmore Flats. Emergency Milwaukee County, Dispensary and Emergency Hospital, Ben Rhine and Dick Galecki Architects, listed on the National Register in 1985. And it's a locally significant, definitive example of the neoclassical institutional architecture, built for the county in 1927.

It's one of the finest examples in the city. The hospital is significant as being the first full service publicly fund, public facility in the city of Milwaukee that served all classes, races of people, particularly the indigent and poor. Prior to its construction, the poor either went without proper medical care or sought services in the city's emergency hospital, which was only irregularly staffed by volunteer doctors and nurses. Aside from the medical care it provided, it was also a national site, for pioneering research on the effects of high pressure oxygen for divers and patients. And the research that, took place there was used by the US Navy, during World War two.

Mediterranean revival, we've got some great examples. The apartment mixed use commercial apartment on North 27th Street and the Cliff Court Apartments, which is on North 25th. Just as a quick note, the the Cliff Court apartments also contains a parcel to the south, which had formerly been the Oxford Apartments, where Jeffrey Dahmer lived in 1991. It's now a vacant parcel, but that is included in in this proposed historic district. Two great art deco examples, the Eshweiler and Eshweiler Wisconsin Telephone Toll office and the Arthur Wolf apartments, which is located on 25th in Wisconsin.

It's hard to tell. These are from the photographs, but they're very large scale apartments and have fantastic Art Deco detailing with zigzags and swags and, and great detailing in the limestone. Again, a quick overview with a 114 parcels. Hard to talk about all of all of the, all of the buildings within within the proposed district, but staff's recommending, approval of the permanent historic designation based on the following three criteria. It's identification with person or persons who significantly contributed to the culture and development of the city.

A number of the original property owners were from prominent families of means or successful businessmen. The families were able to to hire the most prestigious architecture firms in the city during that time. Among the prominent early residents were Edward Wadhams, president of the Wadhams Oil and Grease Company, William Turner, a prominent local judge, Kaus August Linderfelt, who was the first librarian for the Milwaukee Public Library, who was later infamous, for the embezzlement of library funds and his subsequent, hightailing to Europe to avoid prosecution. Joseph Kalvovich Kalvovich, the secretary treasurer of the Hoffman Billings Manufacturing Company, and doctor e w Francis Beebe, was a well known, ophthalmologist. Also for f five, it's embodiment of distinguishing characteristics of an architectural style or specimen.

The architectural styles really run run they tell the story of the period of development, from the early Queen Anne's and Victorian Gothics up through the arts and crafts and American four squares of the first decades of the twentieth century, and finally getting the neoclassical and art deco designs, from the first two decades, and a little bit later in the twentieth century. Although most of the houses have had alterations, all are restorable or good candidates for renovations that would uncover and bring back, the original architectural detail. And finally, for f six, its identification is the work of an artist, architect, craftsman, or master builder builder whose individual works have influenced the development of the city. As we discussed, a number of the properties within the proposed district, were designed by some of the most prominent architecture arch architects and architectural firms in the city at the time. Architect George Schlei had the largest makeup of buildings in the district.

He was a prominent builder who built a lot of spec houses, both on the West Side, but also, on the Upper East Side in the North Point neighborhoods and Prospect Hill, Kenwood Park. But the another a number of the other firms represented are Ferry and Claus, Crane and Barkhausen, Eischweiler and Eischweiler, Otto Strauch, Hood and Telgram. So with those three criteria, staff recommends permanent designation of the district.

So that's F 3, f 4, and f six.

Three, five, and six. Three, five, and six.

Three, five, and six. Okay. Very good. This is also a public hearing. Is there

a motion to open a public hearing?

So moved.

Is there a second? Second. All in favor, aye. Aye. K. The hearing is open. Who'd like to testify? Climb down.

All I can say is wow. Andrew, what a presentation. Holy cow. I feel rich. We have I'm Bob Conklin. 819 North 23rd Street, Diane. Patty. 8819 North 23rd Street, been there the better part of forty years and have four houses in the 800 block. And then our organization, Dolly, I'll call one of our board members up, Dolly Barkowski.

What is the name?

Probocalls, professional business collegiates. We kinda span the age groups. Professionals, business collegiates. You know, back when people used to work and everything. Yeah. It's an old name.

Yeah.

Yes. Yes, ma'am. Yes. It is.

Well, my name is Luis Borkowski. They call me Dolly. And I I live in West West Dallas. Don't live here, but I'm on the board for robocalls and this year representing their interest.

Okay.

Yeah. So, anyways, awesome presentation. And that one group that you mentioned, the neighborhood improvement development corporation, do they still exist?

Yep.

Because they did a really nice job on the houses on Pilbarn, 2400 Block Of West Pilbarn. And, boy, they can take over for, you know, all of our places. If they can make them look like that, all the different paint colors and everything, that would be great. And, Bob can attest, Alderman can attest that, we, you know, advocated for the 2415 West Kilborn House after it had a fire, and it was all black guarded with orange signs to tear it down and everything. And we're like, wow. This place is salvageable. Remember

that, Bob? Absolutely.

Yeah. You know? So so we're pro saving, you know, houses that are nice and old and everything like that. Just at at, you know, at at what cost. And so that's our our main focus. We we do. We're very actually happy to have rooming houses. That's our specialty. Rooms, furnished rooms. A lot of our guys are ex offenders.

A good handful of them are sex offenders. And, you know, we we, are very happy with the group of guys we have right now. We think that they're they, you know, they mind our strict rules, our number one rule, no guests, and make it possible for us to to provide literally affordable housing. And so we hope that you know, I mean, I cannot obviously, we cannot argue with those three f's, you know, that you've have met and all this presentation. So I'm sure that our neighborhood meets criteria, but, you know, our our our main concern is at what cost.

So we we object to it. We like the way things are right now. We think the neighborhood is just going along great. Alderman Baumann is doing a a wonderful job, and we are we you know, we're a big part of it. We've been there a long time.

We used to own properties on robocalls own properties on 17th And State, one of which is owned by Sonny Bando, another one a couple doors to the south. We owned a Christian bookstore on 20th in Wisconsin for a long time. And, we do keep in mind that, the bible does say just as the entire earth was once flooded, this earth and its contents reserved for for fire and for the perdition of ungodly men. And so we're trying to do as much as we can in the and and, incidentally, Dick Peeper did an awesome job on the New Testament reading at the governor's prayer breakfast, which we sponsor. So he might even have quoted some of those scriptures, but definitely from the New Testament.

So we just and we had a wonderful time, you know, with the lady who runs the Jewish community center from reading from the Old Testament too. So but, anyways, that's our organization. Those are the houses that we have. That's our focus, affordability. From our perspective, we find ourselves funding these properties. And right now, the city has been moving up the assessment levels. If we could actually sell those properties for the prices that the city is saying they're worth, wow. We really look smart. Anyways, that's kind of our perspective so far. And, Dolly, if you wanted to say anything more, feel free.

I think Bob's pretty much stole my thunder here. But we we do wanna go on record as opposing the the zoning that that we do have the five properties, four of which are don't have I we don't feel like they have any significant historical value I mean, historical features at all on the outside. The the fifth one on at 2424, Kilbourne, has a few. But they you know, it's it we we still would feel that it would be burdensome for us to do that being a nonprofit and and trying to help the city, house their the people who are homeless or or or keeping them from being homeless. And it it and we've put in so much money already on on on the houses and the interior, the the furnaces, the air conditioning, putting in new air conditioning, the roofs.

It's just so many things. I think maybe close to oh, it's getting near $500,000, you know, the years that we've had it. So designation designation like this, I for the houses that we have, we just don't feel it it would be very appropriate to change the zoning to historical.

Great. Thank you. Okay. Next.

Good afternoon, committee. Attorney Samantha Baker. I'm here on behalf of the property owner of 2502 West Wisconsin Avenue, which is a vacant, non functioning sitco that is on the southern border of the proposed district on West Wisconsin Avenue and North 25th Street. I don't need to belabor the point. I think the point that we wanted to make here is that the status that the criteria to satisfy the historic district has not been met based on the fact that there are other districts that satisfy some of the require or some of the, I guess, elements that have been stated here today with respect to the architects that, have built some of the homes in the proposed district, and some of the architectural styles of the homes that are being proposed to be protected in this district.

My client feels that it would be it would be better to protect these particular homes by having those homes designated as historic. Essentially, that the the proposed district is too expansive to achieve the desired effect, that some of the the homes that may be needed to be protected based on their historical significance or their historical architecture, style or the architect who built the home, that could be satisfied by having those specific homes, which I believe there are a few, I think three or four, that have already been designated as historic. There is no need to, group in essentially the the the

eight blocks, nine blocks,

that are proposed here for this district, given the fact that the the district or the the criteria itself, we believe, just has not been met. Some of the other districts that are in the in the vicinity of this proposed district that have already been granted historic designation include the Concordia Historic District, the Kilburn Row Houses, the Cass And Wells Street Historic District, and the Cold Spring Historic District, as well as the Burnham Block. I think that all of these, which is a little bit south, but, I think that all of these historic districts already encompass the, a lot of the architects that have been listed in this survey, as well as a lot of the historic, architecture types that have been listed in the survey as a, a reason to be protected. And I'll leave it at that, as to why we would oppose this, designation today.

Thank you. Thank you. Anybody

Anybody online? Else?

Yeah, please.

Good afternoon, committee members. Name is John Anderson. I own 855 North 25th Street. I oppose doing the the blanket designation for the neighborhood. There's a lot of properties as previously mentioned in the pre presentation. There's 12 that were built after World War two. Mine would be one of them. My property does not have any historical nature to it that's trying to be preserved by this motion. And I feel that that would add additional cost and undue burdens into the property. Currently, the property is a section 42 housing, which is low income.

We rent tenants between 3060% of income levels. So like several other multifamily building owners in the general vicinity, we work to benefit the community and the poor in the community as a whole. This kind of designation, I guess, historical designation to the property will increase our insurance costs where this where we're already being hit on increased costs for operations because this is a high crime neighborhood. Respectfully to the community groups that are trying to make a difference, and they are. But it is the reality is is we have a lot of issues in the community area as a whole that need to get addressed.

And this by designating this, this will incur additional costs. And, you know, we are, as I said, affordable housing property. We only have so much margin to work on, and it will make supporting that very difficult moving forward if our costs continue to increase. With owning and managing other historical properties, I understand the nature and the character that's trying to be done by it, but I think that'd be better served with individual designation to the properties that we're trying to preserve instead of a blanket for the whole area or provide an opt in or opt out or to further divide up the map that's done to target the properties that are actually targeted compared to the whole blanket area that is proposed presently. Also, I do understand I'm not gonna go into much, but you did mention cost is not a concern, but do wanna make reality of there is a lot of neglect in area, and that's gonna be already, you know, does any high high historical will increase construction costs and everything else, which will further strain existing properties that are already stressed out.

So the community as itself is trying to build upon itself and improve the neighborhood. I think this is this designation blanketly will further hinder the development that is going on and cause undue pressure that is not presently needed. We need to improve the community, strengthen it, get rid of the crime, do drugs, prostitution, and all the other issues that are going on and build a community, and then you'll get a stable neighborhood, stabilized properties as a result of that.

So I have a question. Sure. Do you do you live in the area?

I do not personally live in the neighborhood, but I own several properties in the area.

Oh, so this is a commercial business, a business that that owns these your business that owns four or five properties?

Correct. Then they're all then residential.

I see. Do you think that by living in an area like this in terms of home ownership helps to stabilize neighborhoods rather than having businesses like yours that are purchasing homes? And

I would argue that would come down to the actual investor owner. There's investor owners that care about their properties, and then there's investment owners that are true to just look at the bottom dollar. So it really comes down to the owners of the property that would make that difference. If you have investment owner, and I would say we are one of them that's gonna go into a property, do above and beyond kind of some of the repairs that necessarily are, you know, are done to stabilize the property. And my attitude on that is always we go in there, make them nice, make it somewhere where you're gonna obtain a good quality tenant instead of a body that pays the bills.

Mhmm. And then you're gonna have less problems. Unfortunately, this property on 25th Street, because of the area and amount of heroin in the area, it's it's been very difficult to find stable tenants. So turnover has been a problem compared to other properties. You know? And and then that specific area requires a a lot of hands on aggressive management, I would say, to control issues.

Well, so there is a theory that I happen to believe in that with more home ownership rather than, that that it that it that in a positive way creates more stabilized neighborhoods.

Sure. But, however, there is individuals that do not desire to own a property and they want to rent because of their life situations and having the ability to for them to have a stable, good apartment living would be just as important, I would argue. Mhmm. And that would get you your stable, you know, stable community.

Where do

you live?

I live in Delafield. I used to live in South Milwaukee. I moved because my daughter has special needs

Uh-huh.

And the school district was enabled to support our needs.

Understandable. Mhmm. Okay.

What what what's the address of your property?

855 North 25th Street.

Relative K.

That's on the West side of the street? Yes. And that's the California style apartment building?

I would I don't I don't know what

On the North it's on the Southwest Corner? Southwest Corner. Yes. K.

Ask you a question. You're you're a businessman. You've talked about stability and encouraging or discouraging investment and wouldn't you think that if you own a home or if you're an investment company and you're gonna do the right thing and that you might pay a little bit extra for windows or proper porch, Wouldn't you feel more secure if you knew that there was some control and that that house next door to you or the apartment building by a slumlord across would also have to follow by some rules? Wouldn't you be more confident about your investment in making it a good area? And wouldn't you be less confident if there was no control and a willingness just to do the cheapest repairs you can find because that's probably what the guy next door is gonna do?

Yes and no. I'm an advocate in property rights of meaning that, you know, you own your property, you should be able to say and do with what your property as you desire. Obviously, billing codes control, in my opinion, what you're kind of speaking of to make sure it's not a slum work, you know, property. But, of course, a stabilized community or area would also prevent crummy landlords from being enticed in those neighborhoods because usually that is enticed by low dollar properties and, you know, tenants that'll come in there, pay the first buck depending on regardless of the condition of the unit. So if you do you do develop delivery product that's quality, you're gonna get a tenant a certain more discerning tenant compared to Right.

Some of the other housing properties we have

in the city. Exactly what you're saying about property rights. I mean, if there's no aesthetic control of some kind, and we've been through this for decades now, nationally supported in the Supreme Court and so forth, that there can be as much as there can be preventing blight, there can also be supporting appearance and aesthetics of a place. And you've almost made the case that for property rights, you can do as crappy a job as you want to your apartment building if there's no control at all. You cannot control anybody from doing something or demoing.

I mean, you were sitting here for what we saw in the Bayview area with the puddlers cottages. Sure. You know, you have those people a couple might still be here, four or five, six house owners who have been working very hard to keep their houses up to up to up to grade and to to, you know, making them and continue to have them look good to preserve that look. And now someone's gonna come in. I haven't seen it yet, but it looks like it's a big oversized house there.

I mean, I haven't we've been saying it for an hour. Aren't we sort of making the case that you have to be careful when there's just it becomes unrestricted development changes and so forth that a preservation district and preservation laws support stability? And actually, studies show that increased property values when you're in a historic district. Those are are national surveys. That's national research about elevating property bill. I would think you'd want elevated property value to the property that you own in that district. I would understand that. I would say the approach at that point would to publish the restrictions and what you're proposing to do instead of

a blanket authority off the bat for all the owners to then see what happens. I mean, that part of the pushback, I would say, is the the on you know? Yeah. You get it in place, and then that's the unknown of what's to come. Right. Putting a sensible plan out there to vote on, I would say then you might get some more support and uptake and understanding throughout the residents in the area. So at that point, that would get adjourned out, more communication would get put out there and then support for it can be found at that point. Going into it with

the limited information that's just agree going with you. I think that's a good point. And the thing is we're dealing with that misconception. It's all I've dealt with on these commissions. For thirty five years is misconception, you know, and the voices out there against it are a lot louder and a lot stronger than a couple of us voices who kinda make the case for the logic of this happening and being the case. And we have lots of examples in the city of Milwaukee where thank god, we we have. Sure. We've got a national convention coming in here, k, in the September. K? The National Trust for Historic Preservation is coming to Milwaukee because they are so surprised and, and happy with how well Milwaukee deals with their historic buildings.

They do their conference in big cities around the country. Last year, New Orleans. They do it in San Francisco. They're coming to Milwaukee. A lot of the national attention we've gotten in the last couple of years has been because we really care about our old buildings. We care about our districts. We you've heard that. We've all heard that now. Right? We've heard that in the news that we've gotten a lot of that feedback from the political conventions that have been here and so forth. People just are really respectful of the way Milwaukee is sensitive. And I think that's what we're here it is. And this is where

the rubber meets the road.

Sure. We have a district like this that we care about that has so many good architects, so many good styles. Do we care about that or not? And the word is, at least nationally, that, yeah, Milwaukee does care about it. We're sensitive to these things. And you wanna increase the value of your properties and your investment in the city? Let's have a good, healthy city that has national respect.

I understand that. That the the proper way we wanna about that is the communication off the bat.

Yeah. Lead a one page provider. Right. Be a certified man does not do

it, sir.

Right. And we could get and we even have, you know, possibilities with my institute to do, you know, workshop neighborhood discussion groups and so forth about what exactly does that mean to be a historic district. You know? You're gonna run around with your hair on fire? No. We're gonna work with you to continue to make it an excellent district.

And then some of the fear, obviously, that has been expressed in other matters before this committee today with overall costs. There's tax credits. There's other things available, but that's not talked about. And then communicating the options available out there.

Yeah. We haven't even talked now about the short tax credit. You have 25% homeowner state of Wisconsin that will help you. You know that. A lot of people don't. A lot of people in the districts don't. And then, of course, there's there's commercial property in the district too. K. And that's even more. That's 40%. That wouldn't apply to my newer building now, would it? Like You gotta you gotta be on the national register. You have to be fifty

years or Yeah. So that I wouldn't apply to me. And that's why for my property, I'm kind of I'm in in opposition because it doesn't pay for my property where the additional scrutiny and something that doesn't even meet the criteria of what we're trying to do, and it would raise costs for the the affordable housing that we're trying

to achieve here. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you.

Thank you. Anybody else wish to testify? No.

Who's this guy?

Hey, Matt. Yep. Question. So I'm listening to your response, and I think, obviously, I'm probably one of the newer ones. So I just wanna get some clarification. So when we're looking at this entire thing as a district, how does that impact, let's just say, those that are not, you know, under that significant microscope? Like, we're looking at all you were, you know, built by a famous architect or is this error or this group of people are associated with it. How does that impact everyone else?

Maybe staff can answer that question.

Well and I do have some questions about I do have those questions, but I'm can we just get through the testimony of people first and then get those if

Well, I mean, is a common problem.

I mean, when when

40 was created, there were many noncontributing properties included in the district. That's the point of geography.

That's the point I'm bringing up because you guys have a chair a real jury who did that mapping? I mean, that's really unusual mapping, the mapping of that district. K? You know that for decades now, the nationals have been saying we've gotta clean those up. What we do in the 3rd Ward, of course, is that we have the entire district.

We don't sort of do that, although we do it to an extent. But then we have non contributing buildings. It's part of the district. Okay? And we recognize, actually, there are three levels, Patty, as you know, in in so what would I think I'm not understanding it completely, but what would prevent us from having a cleaner border to this district and then as as Nick is saying, you know, designate buildings that are non contributing?

Because this does affect things. For instance, when the non contributing, this is decided in the United States Supreme Court thirty years ago. If you have a non contributing building and you demo it and all of a sudden it opens up a vulnerable kind of viewing portal to a historic district, that was found to be, not appropriate and a demo permit not issued. Okay? So there are times when non contributing buildings have an effect on the character of the district. But for the most part, I think you're asking that, Nick. For the most part, we're not gonna have that kind of scrutiny of changes, modifications, flat roofs, but, you know, we're not gonna do that with noncontributing buildings. We do that in the 3rd Ward right now.

Your testimony Okay.

I'll just say this. I live in the neighborhood. And Hey. Your name. Oh, okay. First name, Jim or James.

Last name, Deeter. I live

in the neighborhood. I've been there for since 2004, 2005. I bought the house from Greg Fellardo. Back then, there was a plan in the neighborhood, a comprehensive plan to be densified some of the and create home ownership as you spoke over there. That has not really materialized a 100%.

The only way it did materialize was, I would say, the development on Billboard Avenue or Cedar Street, which it was, which would be the homes across the street from me, which the city invested to rehab the insides of those homes or pottery and to keep the outsides too. So they're historical, with best technology and products and stuff as you've talked about. Then, Rick Wigeland was doing some, renovating at the Ambassador Hotel. And so over on twenty fifth Street, the houses over there came from some of them from the Ambassador Hotel, and at an expense were moved in there to kind of create Ambassador Row over there. So in that neighborhood, there's been different little districts like Cedar Avenue, and I and I brought this.

And this was done by residents prior to me that lived there, that, spent a lot of their time, their own money. They did the research. They tried to create a district there that would have been called Cedar Avenue. And it and I'm gonna just I don't know. Maybe.

Just one of each, if that's okay. And so in there, a lot of the homes that they're talking about right now, the rooming houses, some of the other buildings and stuff on, 24th Street is all included here. There's like 41 pages there. It shows the different ones that all the research on each homes and everything, which surrounds the Kelvich mansion. And then also back then, there was a study that was done by the National Park and Wisconsin Historical Society to promote a historical district in that neighborhood, but that never materialized and studies were done for that.

And so, originally, there was gonna be a a little historical district, which would have been Stegler Avenue, which covers the houses on 25th Street, 24th Street, which were would be the roomy houses. It covers Kilbourne Avenue, and and it actually shows pictures of all the houses. I'm sorry. Well, back in 05/29/2002, there's a feasibility study to turn the Calvidge Mansion into a historical museum. And I talked to the state of Wisconsin and the National Park for the National I get nervous when I talk.

So I talked to the National Trust, the National, Washington DC, and they were going to do some more research and see what happened and why that did not happen. I talked to Wisconsin State Historical Society last week again. At that time, there was money that was spent by and was given to an organization to do the study of the area and everything. And, I Yeah. And actually at that time, Avenue West Business Improvement District was involved in it.

Judy, Judy Mulberry, city of Milwaukee, Paul Henson, the historical preservation, John Narquist. And so that was all federal funded through, the federal government and everything to do this, but it just kinda didn't materialize, and it's didn't happen. So I've lived there twenty years. I'm kinda familiar with a lot of the homes they're talking about. They all have different historical significance.

I've nominated some of the structures in that neighborhood, and I'm in support of the historical And this neighborhood. If you look under the national historical preservation, they have, like, 10 criterias why what's good for historical districts. It'll improve the quality of life. It'll bring businesses into the neighborhood. You probably know what they are and better than me, and you could talk about them. Mhmm.

Pretty valuable. So Correct.

So you support designation?

I support the designation.

Yep.

I only make a couple of comments here, and I don't wanna sidetrack it. But and Bob will be very familiar with it, but the lot on the corner of 25th Of Wisconsin has been a vacant gas station for twenty some years and is basically a nuisance property that got fenced in. So some of these things that came forward, and if I'm correct, 855 North 25th Street with the building that caught on fire that was reconstructed, if it's the right well, I know. No. It's not the right one. Okay.

Let me just ask you, though. The the young woman that was here, there was an attorney representing a client.

Is that

is that the gas station?

That's the gas station.

And you're saying that's a gas station that has been closed?

Bacon. Probably longer. Twenty years. People go there. They get free to eat. Yeah. Couches are in the park is a thing. And finally, I don't know if the city forced it to be fenced in. It was fenced in. I mean, I can talk about there's a rooming house on the corner of 25th And Kilborn. Every time a window it's a historical house. Every time a window gets broken, piece of plywood comes, it gets screwed on where the window was. I don't know if they do it inside. That's painted gray to go look. So I understand the rooming house and stuff, but like the rest of us, you need to kind of fix your properties properly.

Otherwise, it makes our neighborhood, I hate to say it, look like a ghetto, some of these properties because of the people that own them and outside investors. And the values are going up. The house on Kilborn Avenue, which was a lady from, 2450 in West Kilborn. She was from Miami. She was rehabbing that.

I talked to her. They rebuilt the front front porch the way it was. Even though it wasn't historically designated, she's gonna she was gonna replace the windows inside the way they were. They fixed the roof the way it was. They actually took her time to appreciate the neighborhood to invest the money into that, and that was a rooming house, and now it's gonna be a side by side. And I'm not sure and that's been on the so there are people that come into the neighborhood that do understand historical significance.

That's never been completed then.

It's not completed because I'm not sure why

done in, like, ten years. The fire was a decade ago.

But the residents would sooner have the side by side there because others would be a vacant lot. So the other thing is because I talked to a lot of residents. It was on the market for 150,000. I think she ran out of money. What happened is there was a fire in it. There's no electrical in it. There's no plumbing. There's no furnace. It's just a shell. And now it just it just sold this last week for 75,000. So and I'm not sure who bought it or if they'll continue with the same renovation or what they'll do with it.

Okay. Thank you. You wanna make these part of the record?

Yes.

Is there a motion to make these part of the record, these handouts? So moved. Second? Second.

All in favor, aye. Aye. This

one this one should

be in the file already.

Oh, good. Yep.

Okay. Real fair enough. Anybody else wish to testify?

Yeah.

Come on down.

Hello.

Hi.

My name is Tony. I've been homeowner homeowner over there for twenty years. I purchased my home in o five. I stay on Billboard. I was still across here from those houses that y'all were showing down. It's pretty nice.

Don't your actual address, please?

My my actual address is 2452 Dash 54 West Kilborn Avenue.

24 okay. So you're on the north side of the street. So you're just west of the big mansion? No. The apartment building next

to I'm West. I'm next to the apartment. Next to the Red Cross Melbourne Square. Yes. Right. I'm right next

to it.

What I wanna know is just like that guy answered. Those who do not feel their home is historical, is that gonna hurt hurt us in that area if we wanna do things to our home? My home was built in 1894. Maybe under that year, it'd probably be criteria to be historical. Does it have historical features? No. Do I think it should be historical? No. I don't see the benefit of it helping me being historical. I know for a fact it was gonna make my home insurance go up.

I tried before in the past to try to get help from the city and get it. So it's just like, I just wanna be my home just to be a regular home in this city. I don't think benefit me is benefiting my home, my house, my family. They've been here for twenty years. They've been historical whatsoever. And then the area needs a lot of improvement. There's crime, prostitution, all kind of stuff. Every every other night, hear gunshot. There's a lot of stuff that needs to go on in this area before you can say it should be considered historical. I'm opposed from it.

I don't I don't feel that it's gonna benefit that area whatsoever. Yeah. There are a few houses that are nice, but I don't think it's gonna benefit, like I said, any homeowner over there is gonna hurt us, especially because I don't I mean, I I like you said earlier, educate. I don't see, because I don't know the the what the pros of this. Because I read online saying you get tax benefits, and you've gotta ask for permission to do this and do that.

I don't wanna do that. I just don't see it. I just don't see it.

You know that we have two brilliant staff people. Mhmm. All of the a a of the things that are coming up, all can be addressed to them by calling them.

Mhmm.

And as if it's been said by, I think, Matt, actually, it it's only the outside of the house. It is nothing. The inside, you wanna make it totally contemporary or whatever.

But this that's it. See, that's the thing. When I purchased this home Mhmm. It has four floors on it.

Okay.

And there's a grandfather in from the inside for it can be for what's the names? But it's if I wanna do changes on the outside so I can make a better investment on it.

So it is this a single family, or you have is it

Excellent. This house had a raise order on it, and I saved it. It had a raise order on it. I saved this home. They wanted to tear it

down.

No. No. No. But I'm saying, do you is it have you broken it up into apartments?

No. It can't be. Right now, it's just as a duplex, But there is a 3rd Floor, and there is the basement that I can turn into living conditions as well. But if I wanna make if I wanna changes on the outside for the basement, then that's where it's gonna be. I feel it will hurt me, then it will help me because it's in a historical area. You have to keep the original look of the house. I don't wanna do that. If I wanna make an investment on it, which is what I plan to do because that's how it was made, I'm not gonna be able to do that.

And you live there?

Yes. You in one of the I stayed there. Yeah. I stayed there. I've been there for twenty years.

I don't understand. Well, again, these two staff people, they can walk you through. And anybody sitting here that is opposed to this, they can walk you through every detail in terms of how it would affect the outside. Remember, it is the outside of the house, not the inside.

And one more thing. Do y'all help preserve these homes? Do y'all help do y'all give out aid to help people to preserve their homes?

Tax credits.

So you do the work, so we pay for it, but then you just get the tax credit.

Yes. If we and that comes off on your property taxes, then it's

So so this is the title.

If you need a furnace or you wanna upgrade your electrical or your plumbing, you get a 25% discount on it essentially by taking advantage of the tax credits that the state of Wisconsin provides for you.