Charter Review Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay, everybody. It's 05:30 on the nose, so I'm gonna go ahead and start us. And then as others, we'll file in. Would you please call the roll?

Commissioner Rivulin? Yes. Commissioner Yalen?

Present.

Commissioner Burleson? Here. Commissioner Gerber? Here. Me. Commissioner Meeks? Yes. Here. Commissioner Bork? Here. Commissioner Tamides?

Here. Okay. Well, we just just called to order, and I'll go ahead and move us to to our first agenda item. Do we have any citizen comment, period? No?

Okay. So our our item here is discuss and consider a meeting schedule. While we have everyone here everyone's here. If we can It's appropriate. We can work on that schedule now before anybody has to take off.

I know some of you have to take off a little bit early. And if you wanna bring in your calendars real quick, I had a notice that this third week of the month is typically a Wednesday meeting because of your commitment on on tomorrow with the other committee and my commitment with Parks Advisory tomorrow as well. But I know Thursdays work probably well or better for some. So if you wanna do the twenty seventh, Thursday, instead of a Wednesday next week, does that work for everybody?

The twenty seventh?

Yeah. Anybody have conflicts for that one? So 05:30.

Okay. What is the matter doing? Alternating some of your Thursdays?

Well, on that third week of the month, yeah, we'll have to alternate because Thursday is just for for two. Two of us have a

The next Wednesday would be April 16?

Yes. I I would say yes. And the only thing I would just caution us by is we might finish before that last Thursday or that April Okay. Which is what I think.

For right now, though, if it's happening in the South, that I can't see it.

I'd rather go

ahead. You can't map it

out. Yeah.

I mean, I don't I don't see any other conflicts for Thursday in between here and there. So Okay. Well, yeah. That third actually, there's four Thursdays. No. There's three one,

three.

There's one,

two there's five Wednesdays in April. So, yeah, I guess that I guess those meetings are gonna be third Thursday. So, yeah, the that Wednesday would be the sixteenth. So if we meet that if we meet that week, it would be that would be the '1 Wednesday. Sixteenth? Yes. I think I think we'll probably be close to wrapping up for then. So as it stands right now, if everybody's good, we're meeting next Thursday. Okay. Yeah.

And then the next item on our agenda was consider approval by motion of February regular meeting minutes. There's a couple of typos that we discovered, just some sentence wording. Would anybody have heartburn if we postpone the approval of those to our next meeting?

So we can make the adjustments.

Yeah. Yeah. We just Instead of doing it. Meetings.

We can make some corrections, and we'll bring up the the all the minutes, you know, the current through we'll do them all together if that

that works. Okay.

Perfect. Alright. Thank you for that. And then so we're gonna dive into our section by section of our standard operating procedure, basically, starting with section five zero one. And so if everybody wants to get that in front of them Mhmm. It's on page 14 of 36. Basically, we need to copy it, but it's likely to copy.

So that will that would still hold regardless if what we do with the mayoral. Okay. City Council. License are still three year terms, but I'm making, like, every year. Is that correct?

05/2001? Yeah. The city regular city election shall be held annually the first Tuesday and first after the first Monday in November as right about the state. Yeah. I think yeah. It's still be. Yeah. Gonna be an there's gonna be an annual election for for city council and other and, obviously, everything else. But and the terms we the terms we've already gone through and had our first two blushes at those, and then we'll we'll come back with the final recommendation where we, you know, vote yay or nay on all that stuff.

I was just thinking if they changed the city know, because we decided not to change the terms of council members. That's nothing changing the if they decided to do something different. We just have to change those.

I don't think so. Because there's everything else that's on the ballot, congressional, all that stuff and constitutional amendments. So, Sam, five zero two.

This again is really allowing the council to, you know, establish the voting locations and whatnot. I mean, I can read it to you, but we're gonna follow state law regulating the holding of municipal elections. And in accordance with the ordinances adopted by council, The council appoint election judges as appropriate and other election officials and establish voting precincts by ordinance. It's again, it's an ordinance process that's gonna be specific for each election, And we work in coordination with the Hays County election administrator generally to do that to determine those voting locations.

Any any questions or thoughts on that section? Hearing I'm sorry, Jim? Rob?

I wanna do real quick. Go.

Okay. So, Sam, where is it that we have that we basically subcontract out to the county to do the elections?

I don't know if that's I think that's just an interlocal agreement we have. I don't know that we have a specific reference to that in the in the charter. I think it's just the determination of the city council that it's cost effective and efficient.

Yeah.

The county has all the boating equipment, all the systems in place. For it.

I'm going

back through where those lines are. Because I know there's past you know, I've heard a lot of

complaints about

timing, things like that that go on. And so I you know, I'm drilling down into this about where the actual how we hand that off to the county and where that is Right.

That's done through a contract that's approved by council at a public meeting is how we've done it in the past.

Okay.

And I think that probably falls under the general. But let me see.

So at this point, we're just kinda keeping it general. It's just

Yes, sir. I don't see We're gonna

we're we're the ones responsible, but Yeah. We're able to, you know, pass that off.

Yeah. Because council can decide not to do it with the county if they want it. If they chose to, they could buy the equipment themselves, have somebody run the electric. I know

the difficulties with this.

So that's

And I'm sitting there waiting till I went to

court for election results. All the other issues. Let's put that in the chart. Election results shall be posted by no later than ninety minutes. This yeah. There's No. I get it.

For me to take even. That's what it takes.

Okay. 503, Sam?

503. This the big one here is you must file for office at least sixty two days prior to the election day. You know, that's been practiced sixty two days before the yet to file, and I think that falls in August usually. That first week in August is typically when candidates have to file.

Is there

a reason to change that, to discuss that, or does that seem to work?

Sounds I've never seen anyone raise it as an issue. I've been here, but I Is that a state? Candidate for office.

There are some state requirements for Yeah.

We do have false state law regards. What's interesting about this is know, in other sections, we refer we refer to state law, and in that one, it's just kind of a stand alone. But we would have to follow the election code even if charter is different. The election code would supersede any of that.

Well, hearing none, anything additional on changing those dates unless there unless there is, let's go talk about the ballot itself, 05/2004.

All campaign contribution reports filed by candidates shall. It's an interesting That's kind

of what it did there.

That that's I mean, glad to see it there, but

I can't read some of them,

you know, So I that's an enforcement.

They should say tight.

It's

there's not a template for for a tie I mean, you can if you're computer savvy, you can type in your report. But and then you have you know?

Why don't we just say that it needs to be

It's on paper.

But it's always part of the form. That's what I'm hearing you say. It's part of this form. So that's why we're just

Well, it's a it's a paper form that you turn in that has to be notarized, signed, and stamped.

I see.

And I I never typed it because I found it easier just to handwrite it out. But I agree with I think that legible part was added the last time you were on charter review because I think some of the reports prior to that were absurdly ridiculously unligable on purpose. Yeah.

And As far as the legal issue, I could see potential claims that, you know Yeah. Acquiring type is a barrier

Yeah.

To filing for some people perhaps versus handwriting.

It was legible by two of the judges.

Could be considered some sort of barrier too.

That's a good point. Good catch, though. I but having it on paper is, I think, important for, you know, for those that aren't as computer savvy, and I can see where that might be an issue. There is that it is that something's gonna come up. Yeah.

And I don't have computers.

Yeah. Exactly.

Or something Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. I just the electrical kinda stuck out that I

Now that's a good catch.

Yeah.

I I well, I mean,

because I was gonna say, who regulates it? It's not legible. Guys, that's to your discretion. And so I might have read it, but you might not be able to.

So who's discre

you know?

What you would have to do is city clerk would probably just have to ask them. Can you tell us? And we will write it in. We will make note of it. That's really that's what it's had to come down to. The clerk would have to

to Well, and I what I thought you were implying, maybe this is wrong, so correct me. Sure. Like, the city clerk sometimes doesn't take the time to do that or half the time to do that. So it is this a good suggestion that we say I mean, is it just silly to say there's a designated person that does that, that receives all of the applications that people are filing?

That's the clerk. That's the clerk. Receives it.

Part of her

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And I guess what I meant by that is is sometimes I think it would be difficult for the clerk to demand that a candidate like, let's say the candidate says, I think it's that's where I think, you know, they might work with him and say, we've we've we've had some people contact us that can't read it. We'll be happy to make it legible for you if you wanna dictate what it says.

We we will type it out for you perhaps. But that's only there's only been a couple of cases, I think, that's happened. And I I think legible is pretty darn good suggestion to have in your in your charter. I think that's about as far

as we can. There is at the very end of this something

that says we can make

suggestions to counsel, not about changing the charter, but suggestions regarding patient or something. So that's something. Maybe we could headline there on our suggestion.

Like, a notation comment.

Yeah. I mean, we can the the any notations or can be part of our final report.

Yeah. That's section twelve twelve, item number item number two.

Okay.

Yeah.

That that this this commission?

Yes.

Yeah.

Alright, Sam. 505.

So, yeah, a couple things.

Or 505? Or Yeah. 505. 5. 504.

Okay.

No. Wait.

It's 505.

Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. 5 o

So just quickly, 05/2004 is you know, city elections were are considered nonpartisan. Of course, yes, it can be partisan. But in terms of officially, they're not where people are not designating what party they're with in local elections. So the other thing is the the order of the way your names are placed on the ballot, it's by law. It's not alphabetical.

It's not by incumbent status, so it's kinda random. And then the other thing is if you're say you're a council member in place five or something and you're in for reelection, it's saying you need to stay place five. If you decide to run for mayor, that's different. Or if you're a mayoral candidate and now you wanna run for a council seat, then, of course, you could run for any place. That's really the cross stat there.

K. Hearing no discussion on that five zero five?

Election by majority. It does we do have runoffs. If if nobody garners 50% of the vote, you have say three candidates, none of them get 50%. Right? Get the two the two highest vote earners, and you can have a runoff election.

So

you get you've gotta garner the majority of the votes, be it winning candidate if you're in a field of several candidates. It's two candidates. Somebody's gonna get it at 50%.

Is the runoff 20 no sooner than twenty days and no later than forty five days. Is that state election law?

You know, I it's funny that they don't reference that, so I I

have to

I could confirm that if it's state

law. Can you?

Yeah.

I mean, the the runoff elections are so well, they're just so unusual, you know, and people aren't most people don't even realize that why is there a runoff election? Didn't we just have one? You know? That's usually the and so, you know, I yeah. I guess I would like to know that as well. You know? Does it have to be on a Tuesday, The runoff election, is it is there a reason why it's I I guess the twenty to forty five days is important, but Doesn't seem It'd be nice if in everyone's mind, it was thirty days.

Yeah. Yeah. Because we

have Yeah. The this last time was on a Saturday? Okay. So that answers that question.

They were usually always on a Saturday. Right?

But there isn't anything here that

says that. It doesn't stick.

It's just with the pick.

Yeah. I'm just saying secretary's the state works. I'm not finding

that specific issue. I'm not sure it's there's a change to be recommended, but if anybody comes up with brilliant idea, let us know. Alright.

For life timing?

Yeah. It's just to me, there's almost never a good time, especially in December. That's It is. Yeah. Yeah.

I know. I know. And but I'm not sure rank choice is legal by the state, by the

It is. Legislative.

I know we talked about it at one time.

But it does, like Yeah. I just thought that they're expensive.

Sure. But you know what? That's where the injury gets because you shot. That's the you know, I'm always for the, you know, guy running against the establishment. It's basically

Yeah. Yeah. There's been changes on election day there runoff day. 05/2006 is all city elections governed by the constitution of state of Texas. I think we're gonna change anything there. What about 05/2007, Sam?

Just the canvassing is really where we make make it official. We get the election returns, and the council conducts a meeting, and they they bless the returns for for relying on the election officials for those returns. And then that's when candidate new members are sworn in or incumbents reelected or sworn in. Take the oath of office.

Five zero eight.

Can I can I Yeah?

Sure. Mhmm. This is, again, something kind of exactly from the one of the reasons I was asking about the elections is that we had, in this last round, you had to wait until that Tuesday for them to get in the ballots that were absentee ballots. Then they went through those absentee ballots. Well, they didn't they actually the elections office did not release that information, so almost Friday.

So Monday was it Monday or Tuesday? No. It's Monday. It's when they had there in December, they were having that special election for the campus. So you were right up against if anyone would have wanted to challenge that,

If we wouldn't have been

down to one vote, we wouldn't have been down to zero. Again, this was one of those odd votes, but we ran out to seven votes in that region. And if anyone would challenge that, there was no way to

do it

because of, you know, the and it was just the they could have had it a day or two earlier was all that just kind of bugged me. It was that the the county was I don't know. It just it smacked me of, yeah, let's just get this over with, and we don't wanna have anything to do with it. Well, you know, if anyone wanna challenge anything on this couple of votes, you know, it's an odd case. It was a special case. But if somebody challenging couple of these votes. We really had time to do time there, and that was really seeking. So just a a footnote. I don't know. That's where I'm kind of coming in my mind, John, around some of these issues.

There

are just some of the

things that came up that I saw with this. That's why I'm asking, where are some

of these things on And

there still are remedies, you know, for challenging election results that, you know, recounts. You can ask for recounts. You could challenge the validity of the process. You know, I know there are judicial remedies that people can pursue.

But in the timeline, this all I was getting at was the timeline we had there with that was was

So this says returns of the elections, general and special, shall be presented to the city council on any date permitted by the Texas election code at which time the council shall canvass and declare. So I'm assuming that means that on a date that the council is scheduled to meet, which they have to provide notice for in advance. Yeah.

I mean, they usually sooner than later, and it's typically a special meeting. Yeah. But, yeah, so that's a pretty broad statement there. Whatever the election code will prevent. So you're saying law.

Okay. And you're saying that they canvassed on a Tuesday night?

It was on a Monday. I think it was a it's a special meeting.

Yes, sir. Special meeting.

It was a special meeting for bread camps, specifically. And we were right up until Friday with getting that. That was just

I felt that it had something to do with military ballots and something about the

Overseas ballots.

Whole overseas ballots. And then I'm I'm not don't quote me on this, but it's something to do with the date of the election. I don't know if there was a mistake with the date that they put the absentee ballots had to be in by. Mhmm. Because, usually, I've never heard the election office say we're waiting for absentee ballots to come in.

I've heard of military ballots, never absentee ballots. So I think that somewhere there must have been a mistake made because they specifically said what you're saying is we have to give them till Monday or whatever day by 05:00 or whenever the mail comes to have the absentee ballot. Right. And at that point, they canvassed. They waited till that day. Like, it was, like, noon or whatever time the mail comes. Then that evening, they

Start on

the canvas. Yeah. So I think that there must have been because I've never all the years my mom's worked in election, I've never in my life heard that they were waiting on an absentee ballot. Those have always had to be in by election day. So I think that somehow there might have been a typo or a mistake. So they had to deal with whatever typo because that's what you printed and that's what you sent out, and you can't change it if some people have already sent in ballots or whatever. So you're right. I think it was a special case, but I think that there must have been some mistake. Because I've never all my years, I've never heard of that ever.

Sam, correct me if I'm if I'm wrong. As far as I know, state law is that it as long as the absentee ballots are postmarked by election day or on election day, they have to receive those in. So they have to give enough time for those to get through the postal service.

So if

you mailed it on Saturday, then you have to give till Wednesday, usually, you know, for that for all of those to come. Okay. So you get those in Wednesday, but we need another couple days, and I'm not sure of the reasons. There's a

whole bunch of things there. Postal service maybe. And I I mean, you know, it's usually. Yeah. It's

That was Lorenzo Gonzales' runoff Yes.

Yes.

Where that came up. And I do remember city council chambers that Friday waiting, and then they got the news that late that afternoon. We had the special meeting.

But So I would just suggest, Rob, if you if Hey. Can you come up with any wording that you

I'll I'll

think about it. It is. But I think a lot

of this, it sounds like these are some things that may be with the farmers out to county to do for us as a city. I don't know that if we necessarily need to have this in charter. I'm just trying to kind of wrap my head around

Yeah.

That might be the ordinance.

All we've got is, you know, if there's anything could go in forward, this just needs to be in that ordinance itself and make sure we got it covered. K. I just it's just if you think about this, when

we had these two people that if they would have had it,

You've got Monday. You've got this on a Friday evening, and Monday evening is when, yeah, you're coordinated and working. You don't have very much time to go through and look at anything challenging to say you can. So that's all.

Okay. Did we did you do five zero eight, Sam? Pardon me? Five zero eight.

Just no. Oath of Office, you hear a lot about oath of office more recently where, you know, you go you you swore to uphold the constitution or laws of state of Texas, and sometimes people try to use that to, you know, somebody. Y'all gotta take the oath of office in Texas. Right?

Yep.

We take an oath to an office, not.

Six zero one.

So we talked briefly about this. This is power of initiative. You know, we've seen this in San Marcos a few times even since I've been here. People reserve the power to direct legislation by initiative and may propose any ordinance or repeal any ordinance, not in conflict with the charter, constitution, or state laws. That requires a petition signed by at least 10% of the qualified voters of the city, and that's usually determined by the most, you know, recent voter rolls.

So we, you know, we'll have those numbers. We get those from the county. But the thing there is just because it's in charter doesn't mean it's valid rights that voters could post something that does not informed with state law or or federal law for that matter. And in those cases, sometimes it would be an invalid ordinance, for example.

K. Do you have any questions?

Any questions on 601? If not, we'll go to 602. Did I hear no. 602?

Alright. Six zero two, there, you know, the voters may approve or reject at the polls, any legislation enacted by the council, which is subject to the initiative process. So what I think is important there is that, generally, you're talking about things that are subject to the initiative process. For example, we have the the marijuana ordinance that was passed or just a regulatory ordinance of the council versus an ordinance like granting a zoning request. That typically would not be subject to the referendum process.

Right? But general regulations that apply to everyone would be the types of ordinances and laws that are subject to referendum. Again, petition, at least 10% of qualified voters. City clerk has to certify, and that's a tricky process. Right? We've had numerous situations where people don't get submit a proper petition, and it's a hard job. It's it takes a lot of work from city clerk's office, but for good reason. You know? You gotta you gotta assure everyone that the people who signed it are actually voters in San Marcos.

You can't leave it on the counter. Right?

Yep. Right.

Local burger joint, and

it doesn't. So for example, situation here's an example. You know, if you can't have the person getting signatures attest later. They witness the person. They verify their identity and all that. That's like you say. You can't leave it at the counter. You gotta be in person, verify their identity, get their address, and then the clerk can then run through the voter rolls confirm that they are actually registered voters.

And this one says thirty days. Was that one of those things that we had talked about?

Yeah. We did. And we talked about it at length. Think, Yassy. Yes. And we we kind of had a consensus for a change of that for I'm not sure.

I have enough days. Days. Ninety is what I had in my instance. But

but, yeah, it certainly Yeah.

Was ninety days.

Wanted on that one.

Ninety days.

He said it wasn't enough time for

There was two of us that said ninety eight, but rest at sixty.

Shit. Yeah. Hold on. They do. How about we all

That's what I that's what I had

to do.

They're going I think we are.

We should not be. I

I thought I did. No. That's fine. I've got sixty crossed out

and ninety. You know? So it's probably

Yeah. That was on the thirteenth. We talked about petition requirements, the initiative. And, Yancey, was it you that brought up the suggestion to

I was not sure.

To to extend that?

Yeah. Because she said that it wasn't enough time if someone really wanted to do something. And by the time you have to get the amount of signatures Right. They'll get certified and all that. It wasn't enough time to do it.

Yes. Yeah. I think we came up with the ninety day

Okay. Suggestion.

That's good by me. Let's skip that.

And so that'll come back to us in formal suggestion, proposed amendment. Okay. Sam, could you jump to six zero three, please? Because I have one for that. So thing there is main thing there

is if you're going to propose an ordinance that you want the voters to consider, This is saying that you shall provide the full text of the legislation in the form of an ordinance, including a descriptive caption. And I see reasons for that from the legal side is an ordinance. The people need to know what

they're voting on.

And if but it

also needs to come from the the group. They're delaying the petition because if it if they have to leave it up to us to interpret what their intention is, that could get us into all kinds of issues because, well, do they mean this or do they mean that? And then say we try and rewrite the ordinance for them to make it valid. Well, are we first of all, are we getting involved in a partisan matter? Because now legal department's making sure the ordinance is valid or whatever. It's just it's tricky. And I think that's the justification for that, but there may be other points of view on that.

But I think that one actually came up with the fluoride thing because what they submitted said, there'll there'll be no fluoride in the water, but what there's natural fluoride in the water. So what they really meant was could be added. But but I don't know how that correction only got made.

Well, there was some there was actually some litigation, and then there was sort of a settlement breached where it came up with some language. Can't remember. You that was during your

Yeah. Yeah.

And so that was that

was a tough

situation. And but they did come up with a compromise where they agreed to some wording and finally made it. But yes. So that's Yeah. And I yes. There are gonna be situations where we're gonna look at an ordinance and say, you know, the way it's proposed, it's, you know, unenforceable. Or

It was just the suggestion that I I was in favor of leaving fluoride in so that I could further my water treatment business.

Forgot it. I forgot.

And that that that I was profiting off of fluoride because the fill some filters that I sell remove fluoride.

Oh,

wow. I did have a suggestion. Yes, sir. Yes. On I think, it's on 3 603 or 602.

I'm not sure. But one of the suggestions that I had was and it was somewhat related to reef referendums that were proposed in the past was that the the group that is, I guess, behind the the people that are doing the referendum process have to disclose, you know, the the funding that they're getting just like a candidate would have to propose you know, have to just have to fill out a form saying, you know, here's here's the contributions that we're getting on this particular referendum.

Does it have

It has to be allowed to

It is true.

Anti It

is they don't have Where would we get? Yeah. We get

I don't know if it was us. Yeah.

I don't know.

Well, it it's kind of how you look at it. It there's gonna there are groups where they're wanting to repeal legislation, and that's kind of referendum. And then there's groups that are proposing new legislation that it may be that you did.

Well, I wanted to bring it before the group to see if there's any interest in if that being a good idea. I always thought it was because during that litigation, for instance, we found out that there was a or during one of them, I can't remember what it was, but there was there's petition drives, and there were people funding it, like, per signature.

Yeah.

And so we wanted to know, you know, because I was just

paying for

this. I think that's important. I think it's that will

It's it's legal. I'll tell you because okay.

So if you And I'm not claiming it's illegal. Right. If you got if you got

x amount of days, you've gotta get out there and get signatures. Signatures. There are people that will go out there that know the rules, know the law, know exactly how to

do this,

that you contract out for them to help you get those signatures.

So you're not paying the people who are signing. You're paying the people who are taking it house to house.

Right. But those groups get paid per signature.

Okay. So if And they these were not super small numbers either.

Yeah.

And so one of the things that we thought was, well and I can imagine any organization that, let's say, is being funded. You know, I'm just just thinking one off the top of my head. You know? We want we wanna prohibit electric vehicles on the streets of San Marcos or whatever, and it's funded by, you know, automobile companies that Right. Only make internal combustion engines.

You know? And and they're funding and I'm not saying that would happen, but it could happen. And it just seems to me that it's a small thing to file some sort of disclosure as the the funders of this petitioner referendum drive. And I don't know.

Knew that. So I would be awful leery to put my name on something if I wasn't agreeable with who's funding it.

Yeah. And just like with, it it can assist you in your decision to vote because you're gonna have to go vote on this anyways just like, your candidate filings, and that's certainly, you know, where are you getting your money from?

You know? Funding? Of candidates for a financial disclosure. Yes. It it it presents a barrier to the grassroots that wants to do this. And on the other side of it, it I I think if it's not any more onerous than if I was to go up for city council and have to file a financial disclosure. I don't see I I see a fairness level.

Yeah. And I think that the city, rather than us determining what that disclosure looks like and the information, that's something that the city council can create

Yep.

If it passed.

So So you're asking for a financial disclosure from

Monetary donations to or monetary contributions, however it's whatever the right language would be.

Any some petitions?

Well, you said one was to General, the referendum

is that that, you know, repealing legislation. The initiative is usually proposing new

But do they also do the same thing if they're trying to appeal legislation?

Well, you have to get 10 per it's the same process of getting 10% of people to sign. So they're

So we're giving them an extra sixty days to do this work. So I think it's reasonable

That's that's kinda where I'm coming from.

Reasonable to extract. So I would say it would be in both sections as a one sentence. And if it's alright, I'll get with Sam over the next week or so.

So we'll do a we'll do a track changes kinda like I did on these other ones where we can insert some possible wordings

on Is that clear?

02603.

Yeah. We're pretty

disclosure of sorts.

Filed with the city clerk. Sam? That way the citizens have access. That way the cis it's just a transparency thing.

I I see a balance. Yeah. Okay. If if we're going to ninety days, okay, and if it is as I said,

it's I'm not understanding if I'm running for city council.

Yeah.

I I think and, you know, I don't just you're right. Let them figure out. But just keep it you know? And I think that's it. Just choose who's the funding source for, you know, whatever.

Yeah. And I don't know the only other thing I'll say is I don't know if there's any state form because, like, the city council forms that are filled out, those are the Texas ethics commission forms. So Okay. Those are produced by the state government. So I don't know if there's a there may be already something at Texas ethics. To go by. Okay. Yeah. They they may they may already have. Because I'm sure I'm sure this has come up. We're not the first city that's

Not there.

Yeah. Alright.

I had a quick question because you you brought it back up again. So it's qualified voters. 10% of the qualified voters of the city. Now that's not registered. That's qualified. There's some case law

on that, and that issue has come up before, but it does mean you have to be a registered voter. And a lee and, you know, a legal registered voter. Okay. If we were able to uncover that you were registered under a false name or with an improper address or whatever, yes, of course, like, anything can challenge that, but it generally means registered voter.

And that's fine. You you're the

one with legal knowledge.

I just Yeah. That issue's come up before, and qualified does mean registered. Okay.

Alright.

Yes, sir.

K. 604, Sam.

Okay. Here's here's the deal here. Council can do a couple of things with the a petition. Right? We can they can pass the ordinance without amendment and avoid the election altogether. So they see something council could decide for themselves. You know?

I mean,

that's a great idea. Why why why have an election? We have the power to adopt the ordinance today. Right? But, otherwise, they need to call the election.

And, again, that goes back to the sixty two days. Let's see. Call an election on the adoption of the ordinance without amendments to be held on the next uniform election date authorized by state law for municipal elections, which is at least sixty two days after the day on which the council acts. So, again, the point being is we wanna call the election when we're calling the elections for council members, and that is gonna be early August. So that's another reason it's important to get petitions in with a certain amount of time because we need time to count those signatures by August. You know, by that August date, we'll call the election.

So do we is there something that you're suggesting that we do on that?

Or I

I don't have any suggestions for this.

Anybody have any questions on that then?

Okay. Go

ahead. No. I'll just he got me thinking because he's saying that there's a certain time. So if we change something to ninety days or a month off on something, is that gonna mess up

the time?

No. The Okay.

The ninety days for them to

For the for the referendum. Right?

It moves back their start date. Yeah. It moves basically on it. But yeah. So that's so we're still saying it's gonna have to be August.

Yeah. It's gonna have to be. So, yeah, they would just have to reconcile the two and make and make it work. I don't know if it's an inherent conflict.

So past year, where's the word? May. Should that be done? May.

Maybe the option may or may not. Shall we

What what what paragraph is that

best there?

It's five.

It's 24. It starts at the electric.

They

don't they have the

option? Submit.

Well makes a deal.

Or Yeah. Can submit it, but they can also

They can also just

In other words,

counseling. You

said in Shemesh, it says they have to do it without amendment. So it's So May. It's giving them options.

So under the first part, so within thirty days after the certification, the council shall either, you know, pass the ordinance or call the election on that ordinance without amendments. At the election, the council may submit the initiator without amendment and an alternative. I think I think all that's really saying is that they may submit that alternative ordinance along with the one that's proposed by the petition.

Yeah. Yeah.

But the the proceeding should Yeah. Does make it a shall as to the submitted ordinance. But counsel can come up with their own. It's like, god. We got a better one.

Or or the So both of

them could be on the ballot? That's correct. So if I

I really confuse voters. But it's I could see the logic. It's like, well, if we're gonna get into that subject matter, well,

we wanna propose an an alternative.

Could see that. I don't know if it's ever happened. I'm I'm unaware of it. But

Yeah. I could see it. People couldn't come together on some wording or something. I don't know. But, yeah, I think that makes sense. Anything else on 604? Oh, yeah. We have section the rest of that, section b and c. Yeah.

The sec thirty days. Well Or no.

That one again, it's counsel and say, alright. We've received your petition. We'll go ahead and we're gonna repeal the ordinance. But, again, they can call the election. It's just they need to make that decision within thirty days Objection.

After receiving. But, again, if you're gonna call the election, it's still gonna have to fall within that timeline for calling the election. It's usually gonna be November unless, of course, a special election is called. Right? But the way they held it's they write it's to be held on the next uniform date authorized by state law for municipal elections, which is and this one's interesting, which is at least forty five days from the date of which council has. I think that that might be an issue because Well, there's a May It's sixty two days on everything else.

And and we've had we've had elections in May for voter voter approved bonds. So think it's just a matter of I see it. Not do away with May elections. Are we still having It's a uniform election day. The school board votes in May.

And it's a it's a choice for us as a city Not As a council.

Not for city council races, but for special for special purpose elections, bond elections.

Or how could could this also fall into that? Or do these have to be on the November ballot?

Well, the way it's written, right well, I I would say this is November because it's the the next uniform date for municipal election. Well, not city council elections. Municipal election. So May could actually still

Yeah. That's what I'll

be Possibility. Yeah. That's an interesting

wow. Yeah. You no. I mean, I I see that. That would be really

But see on here when you were saying the sixty two days, is there some different because it says authorized by state law for municipal elections, which is at least forty five days. So what makes it different than the sixty two?

Well, the November elections, we usually call the election to

open in

August sixty two days. So that is a little bit of a an interesting distinction why this one is only at least forty five days because that's that probably wouldn't work for November elections.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. Okay.

So there's there's two votes here. See, that's one of them right there. Just see.

It's not uniform if you're saying 62 over here, but if there's a specific reason that this is 45 other than because it's I noticed it says municipal elections. Right. So there must be a different state law for municipal elections, those two.

I actually don't know what the logic was for having '45 and '62.

Could you I don't know if

that came up in your last 21. No. You're quite a distinction.

No. Could you maybe do some research?

Sure. I'll look at Report back to us. To see if that's trolling you.

K. We can always come back to that one.

K. Do you all realize what we just said that if that next uniform date does allow for a May election, someone could come in conceivably, given the ninety days amount, to get enough signatures. The 8,020. 5,000 signatures, you'd be able to get percent. You get all that.

You get everything. We could be going to a a election possibly, or can city council put that? Well, no. Because this is saying it's gonna have to be held on the next uniform date. So if you back it up enough from that that you could be having a May election and no one in the seats, you know, wait a minute for a referendum, you know, recall, whatever it may be. That's an interesting scenario in my mind.

When was the when was the wasn't the fluoride thing in May? I mean, I know the bond election.

That's a good question.

The bond election was. Twenty seventeen bond election with fire stations.

So I

Yeah. If you don't have a bond no. A bond election. Yes. But then it would just yeah. It would be kind of weighted. It's those that can get out the vote. Basically, it's gonna be a low bar of attorney, and those that can get out that vote, if it's now if you're keyed up with the bond election, okay, then, you know, there's gonna be people out there. Possibly, but it's still gonna be a level of attorney. It's just a scenario that I'm just walking through in my head right now that that's really inter interesting one that, yes, if I'm looking to use this. Okay?

You know? Everybody else does. Yes. Why don't we have him do some research? And then just in case we're not talking about scenarios that could actually happen.

Well, you're saying that if you actually do this and it's within that allotted time by law and what's in the charter, then it can happen.

You can have a May election. And I think mister Chimaydas.

I think there yeah.

It does Well familiar that the fluorine wasn't

It might in a matter of fact. That might make sense because if your petition if your city council passes a bonehead ordinance in July, there's no way you're gonna get your signatures and Yeah. Certified by the August date to, you know, make the November election. So would you make it wait a whole year? Probably not. It would either you would probably wanna get that one over with if if it was a valid petition or referendum. But let's move forward

Thank you.

And come back to it. Sam, 605.

Any number of ordinances may be voted on at the same election. No. Makes sense. It's just indicating that the majority of the legal votes cast in favor initiated ordinance, it shall be effective as as an ordinance of the city when the result of the election is declared. So when the votes are canvassed, just saying it's gonna be treated like any other vote. You're gonna canvass the votes, and if you the initiated ordinance passes, it passes.

Which is the way we would

expect it to.

Now here's what's interesting. This is where limitations were placed on the council's ability to repeal a citizen initiated ordinances. Right? An ordinance adopted through the initiative process may be repealed or amended at any time after the expiration of two years by a vote of three fourths of the council members. What are they saying? They they're saying, hey. We could put fluoride back in. So that's what it's basically saying. Look. If you're they don't wanna make it too easy for council to overturn a voter initiative.

They wanna at least have that two year period. And I don't know if it that in '21. That was in

No. I don't

think it looks yeah.

It doesn't look like

that. I

didn't know that.

Oh, so counsel could undo that one right now.

Yeah. We could've. And then I I could've requires so much more money.

Just requires

a super majority. So even after the two years, but it's

it's so super majority.

That's interesting.

You

know? Yeah. So there's there's that ability.

Alright. Are we anybody wanna change that? Let's go to 606.

No. But I didn't wanna ask.

Yeah.

So and they have to take if that if it is passed, council has to take that under consideration. They can't change anything to that. They have to

accept it.

Well, yeah, a couple things. There a city can if the city determines that an ordinance that was passed by voters is, say, unconstitutional or illegal, contrary to state law, they could refuse to adopt it. So in other words, it passes those approving the council could have an affirmative action to well, that's great, but on its face, it's invalid. We're not gonna adopt it. What happens in that case is the group that is proposing the ordinance or groups that are supportive could file a lawsuit to compel adoption, things like that.

Or vice versa, the city also could have the option of going to court to have a court declare whether it's valid or not valid, like a declaratory judgment. You you know, court, we have this ordinance that voters initiated. We think it has some issues, but can you tell us? And in that way, it takes the city out and is like, okay. The court's telling us it's valid or it's invalid. So for example,

the actually So

we have the y'all are familiar with the the marijuana. It's called the marijuana ordinance, but that's we just had a hearing at the court of appeals on that. It was approved by the voters. The council didn't deem it necessary declaring if it's specifically invalid one way or the other. It's state of Texas stepped in and says we believe it's contrary to state laws. So that's in the court right now. If the court tells us, you know, then fine.

If the

court tells us, we'll, of course,

not enforce it. I just

I wanted, again

Yeah. So the city does have options. We the city is not

in a

position where their hands are absolutely tied. Like, if there is some ordinance that's just egregiously, you know, invalid or unconstitutional, yes, there's always remedies for the city.

Just like what? They passed the marijuana thing, but the city council said we're not voting for it because it's against state law, so they wouldn't implement it or whatever. They refused.

And it just goes to show how lawyers can all look at the same thing and have different views of it. Right? That's why we're in court, you know, why people are in court. So

let's talk six zero six.

Thank you for

I mean, section a is pretty pretty straightforward. The city shall have the power to recall any elected officer.

That's the 10% threshold again.

Yeah. But go into section b real quick. Second second lie second sentence. Any recall petition form supplied by the city clerk shall be valid for forty five days. That means the petition is dated at the top, and it's you gotta get those signatures in by forty five days. Or

It changed to ninety, if that's what I'm saying to you. Well, forty

seven is after they turn it in itself.

I don't know. It says the recall petition form supplied by the clerk shall be valid for forty five days from the date of its issuance.

So in this case, So

we would have to change that to? If it's

you you I don't know what that to. But, you you know, it depends.

Well, the the the referendum is ninety days after it's passed. K. You know, it it was thirty days, first off, after it was passed that you had your chance to organize an effort to repeal it. This is a little different. This is power of recall, which is, you know, an earthquake in your city government.

But it's just saying you only have forty five days to get the signature?

I think that's what it says because there's an ish there's an issuance and an expiration date and a tie even a time and a time shall be noted on the petition form. All such form is for return to the city clerk before their expiration date in order to be eligible to be verified. So it they don't have to be verified by the clerk, but I'm wondering if this just says, okay. Here's your petition form, and it's got 10 lines on it for people to sign. And up above, it has the ordinance that you're asking the people to approve or put on the ballot.

Right? Because recall has to go to the ballot, doesn't it?

Yes, sir.

Yeah. So this is for to get on the ballot,

to But it says it's only good for forty five days. But if we're giving people ninety days to sign a petition

Yeah. But

is that just one paper, one page of it? In other words, I go to the city clerk, he wants me this. It's got 10 lines. I can't get 10 signatures in forty five days. Is the next one Well, you can say all

send me.

So do

you need 10% within it doesn't say that.

I think it's the form.

That's fine. Okay.

So the form the form will obviously have to be appended because it's not gonna you know, to get 10% of the voters, they're gonna give you the basic form, and then, of course, you're gonna supplement it. But I think that cover page to the form is what it's really talking about. It's that cover page. Here's the form. So it's pretty kind. You may add 50 pages to it. By the time you get 10% signatures to 10%, it's gonna be like this. But I think it's that basic The whole thing. Cover sheet. So you're

Does any of say at the time of issuance what 10% is? Because we fluctuate a lot

of you. No.

10% of

the We don't do it at the front end. We do it when they're counting. They get the voter.

I thought it was 10% of the voters who voted in the last election. That's the that's what they qualify.

Yes. That's what they go by.

And does the person know that when they're issued the form?

They might say, like, 10,100 votes.

Because it's agreed. It says that they all have to be dates in order to be eligible to be verified and certified by the city clerk, so that would mean all the pages. It says that the qualified voters of the city I

think qualified names voters.

Regist okay. So it isn't who just voted in the last election. Because you that's a different number.

I think this goes back to my request earlier. This is what I was asking earlier about who qualified and registered, and that was where

we sit down. Was gonna

walk through this a little bit.

Could you get us some information on the term qualified voter?

Yeah. So it is registered voters. I guess the question is

So

10% of the voters who voted in the last election is different than 10% of the registered voters.

Yes.

So registered equals qualified.

Yes, sir. That Okay. That our case law is clear on that because that's come up.

Thank you.

And the clerk would definitely have that number.

Yes. Could we change that wording? We're confused by it. Shouldn't we change qualified to registered?

Oh, that's what slash registered. I

don't know. I mean, can we change that?

Well, they would be explained.

You're not registered to vote. You're not qualified to be voted. Like, it's just

I mean, the qualifications may change.

Mean, must be pretty hardcore about this in specific. I think it should

say registered. Why wouldn't? Unless there's any legal. Think yeah. That's why I was just the qualified versus know, you were saying more Yeah.

Is interesting why they use the word qualified, and I don't know the history of that. But your logic is, yeah, they're registered, but they also have to be lawfully registered. Guess

you could get it done.

But necessarily going that route. But I'm just saying it it is qualified versus registered. And then that timing threshold, the integrity, I think, is critical. Because if we're saying last election versus now, you know, when maybe we had a registration drop and between the last election and a lot of people got registered for some reason or not,

you know, that that could change

the numbers.

And,

you know, I mean, what list are we going on is the question here to see qualified.

That's why we need

I need your IT, and you could go if you want to list to you have to register. No.

The the and that's the thing. The case law is pretty clear. Qualified means registered.

Okay.

Yeah. That's an issue we've had to research before.

But you wouldn't be qualified if you want.

Okay. So if qualified is registered, do we wanna change the forty five days?

It would have to be because it's saying with the forty five days, it's saying that you'd have to have it all turned in so that they could check all of the signatures and all that. So that doesn't I don't think that that means the very front page.

No. Yeah. It's everything.

All of it.

Yeah. It's everything. Everything.

So if we're gonna put 90 over there, you have to put 90 here either there's a conflict. No.

Not necessary.

Not necessary. Because you're told it's apples and crunches. The ones we're talking about here is recall of a specific member of the city council versus a court recall.

A referendum. Exceptions.

We just need you you know, if you wanna do 90, okay. I'm just in my mind, they're two different things. But if you wanna do 90 for that to make it consistent

So is

that 45 just there, or is it state?

I can certainly look at that, but I I have a feeling it's local. It's just the charter.

Might be the way other cities do. I I

because usually everything else is state of

Yeah.

You don't State

of I

would just say that I get it. You know, forty five days is really tough, but it probably should be. And you're talking about again, this that would be, like, the biggest earthquake to happen in the city government is to have an elected official who was just maybe just elected. And their first vote, let's say, riled people up. I almost feel like it should be really hard to do it. There's other there's other. I don't think so. I've never not in my knowledge.

Never. No.

And there's there's other Other places. Other places in the charter where counsel behaviors you know, like, if it's a felony, convicted of a felony, you're out. That's in there. So there are some other safeguards. That's just my feeling.

It's you know?

I think it should be too because you get up there and you make a decision that you have a reason for making it, then all of a sudden, people just wanna hunt you out after one decision. They should really wanna do this. They have to work to do it.

Yeah. I mean, it should be a monumental re there should be something just, like, no brainer to do this. But the other thing is I don't wanna terrorize my elected officials. You know? I want them to take hard votes. I want them to look their constituents in the eye and say, I just disagree with you. There's for the good of the city, I think my conscience tells me my all the research that I've done, this is what we have to do. That's the what that's what I want out of it. And that's how rare is that for that even to happen? Everybody always says, gee. We just wish people would, you know

And

one thing not be so political and just,

you know, not worry about their next election, but the next generation. How many times have you heard that?

It was it's that forty five days, which is half of the ninety days we're giving. Okay. For ninety days for a referendum. But if it's a recall,

no. You you

have that time.

My feeling is since it's never proven to be a problem, I think we can see about changing it. If if the reality calls I don't see the need to know how to change it. I'm I'm okay if you guys find out it's nine, but I'm totally okay.

Okay. I I I think I'm hearing it's a it's a it's a tough hill to climb, but I think it it it was probably put in there for a reason.

Gonna put in the up for the Yeah.

Think you'll get

it done.

I'm sign that position. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So we've talked about the power of recall, the recall election, I guess, just to determine that's state law by state law for municipal election, sixty two days. Sounds. So I'm gonna jump to six zero eight. The results, that's just the same. The the vote is the vote. Right? The result is the result.