Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

We'll call the town of Winchester planning and zoning commission November 10th meeting 2025 7 p.m. to take a roll call on starting on the left. Rrista Mala, John Coney, Peter Marsha, Plat, Charlene Lavoy, Jan Perry. Okay. And uh Adam's absent and excused. And since Adam's Aptton, how about you, Sean? Scott's absent.

Scott's not Yeah, Scott's absent, too. That's absolutely excused. Okay. Agenda review. Anybody want to change anything the agenda hearing? Nothing. Public comment. I don't see anybody. Public hearings, we have none. Number five, old business. We have none. Number six, new business discussion. Possible zoning regulations, various sections.

All right. [clears throat] As we discussed last meeting, we wanted to use tonight as a little bit of a planning session because we don't have any applications at the moment. I put together I think maybe a four or five page based on some topics that we briefly discussed last week last meeting was um and gave you kind of a summary of some of those items that uh to kind of talk about and discuss. So I don't know Mr. Chairman if you want to just walk through that in order and we'll just have a conversation each one and I'll make some notes. Okay, let's start. Yeah. Let's start on the uh accessory dwelling unit.

Do we have a paper copy of that? Is it in there? Did I not Is it in the packet? It's a staff report. 11. Uh it was in the packet that's downstairs. This was the only packet that was down there for me. It was last week's You know what? This was given Oh, this was this was provided last week. This is your last name. Let me run down and see if I miss. I can get up on the screen, too. If that makes more sense, it's just me. I'll I'll run down. I'll be back. [clears throat]

Okay. Have we ever had uh regulations on this topic. We Yes, these are the current ones. Yeah. So, you currently have section 456 [clears throat] which governs your accessory apartments. You did opt out back in 2021 and we did find that board select ratified that so it was done properly.

So, you can have your own regulation. You're not you're not hold to the state's requirements 2129. So right now you have an owner occupancy requirement. Um it requires notoriized documents to be provided at the time of uh permitting. And then I think there's a yearly requirement as well. Um exterior entrance has to be on the side or the rear of the building. It can't be in the front. 900 foot maximum size. And the floor plan has to be submitted. And there's some other stuff that's in there too. That's the bulk of the regulation right now. It's a special permit. and it's allowed in all of the residential zones. So, I think the question is, you know, I don't know [clears throat] how many of those things you're seeing. Um, certainly I don't think we've seen any since I've been here in the nine months or so that I've been here. Um, I don't know if you've seen many of those. And if you want to do anything with this regulation, if you want to get closer to the state's um requirement, you do have pretty you have pretty tight regulations. It could be an as of right use instead of a special permit. It's just, you know, up for discussion, I think, at this point.

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the big things to for consideration if you do want to expand it at all, you know, we've got to stipulate it's got to be where there's city water and sewer. Otherwise, any place without the city water and sewer, then you're dealing with additional disturbance for septic system, things like that. Yeah. It falls to the torrent area. Exactly. It does. Two units. it becomes a central system request to the state and right there's some additional you know the the only thing that I would say about that is you've got large parcels out in the town that are not on super and does it make sense to say that those aren't eligible for ADU just because

I mean and they're out there there's there's several out there you know there's many of them that are that way you mean that already exist that already exist pre-exist We wouldn't regulate the sewer anyway. We would just require that they have the approval. Well, that's I think one thing was saying that's what we were just talking about. Right. So, you were you're Let me make sure that I'm understanding. You're suggesting that one of the things we consider is requiring that it be sewarded on on the central system on the system or if they come for a special permit or whatever we decide to do that they have something from Torington area health that that

can [clears throat] they can have the additional expansion of the system. Yes. All right. Which would be required because they should have that before we give any approval. I see what you're saying. Okay. That's my opinion. I mean otherwise if we give an approval then they turn around and go to Torington Area Health with an engineered plan and they say they can't. Okay. So so sort of have a B 100A site review for Torington area health first if they're not on the septic system if they're not on city source. I got I would normally think that's even if it's a zoning permit that's the process that it would go. It typically is, but I think codifying it doesn't, you know, [clears throat] because I think the the thing about codifying those types of things in my opinion is it it puts somebody on notice. Yeah.

Well, it puts them on notice, but if somebody's looking at our regulations online, [clears throat] they could see that and it's right out there. It reminds them. Yeah. It's right out there, right? And in front of them. I agree. And there's no question about it. Do do we have any idea if of of how many there are of these already in town? No, I don't. Um, we could try to figure that out. I I'm just curious. [clears throat] I mean, it's an old town. There's probably stuff like this going on, right? Sure. So, a couple things that bother me here is one, this regulations written for like creating a ADU inside of existing structure,

but it also says on lots. So, it kind of refers you could put up a a secondary ADU. So we need to regulate that to make sure that that ADU conforms [clears throat] to all current zoning regulations as far as so they can't go get a ZBA on it. It that has to conform at that time to all current zoning regulations if it's new construction. No, if it's a new structure. Yeah.

Right. And the other thing is we say 900 square feet. So a lot of regulations say 900 square feet or half of the primary structure. So I think it should also say half of the primary structure [clears throat and cough] because you don't want it to be bigger than the primary structure. Right. Okay. And there's something here. or half the primary structure. Whichever is less. Yes. Whichever is less. Whichever's less. Yes. [clears throat and cough]

Then there was something I read here about restricting it to what zone it could be in. So number 11 in the regulation uh talks about has to be renewed. Um if a new owner comes in, he has to come right away. So [clears throat] if somebody went and actually put up an ADU, they got some money tied up in that. So it's almost like we're saying here that you might not be able to get that permit or if you messed up and didn't file one year, then your ADU is illegal. or if you modified your house for a mother-in-law apartment and then for your ADU and you spent $30,000 doing this, you know, it could be illegal real quick. So, do we want to make keep these renewal of the permits and all that in place or we want to once you you got it, you've got it type of thing. So, so my my comment on that and I and I think you're right, you know, and this is something that I've struggled with in in other towns as well. It's a very difficult thing to enforce and it's a very difficult thing to keep track of [clears throat] for the office. And yes, the onus is on the owner. You have the ADU, you've got to come in within 30 days of purchasing it and filed and it's, you know, owner occupied and submit that notorized document. But it sort of forces the property to be in some ways it it makes resale a challenge, right? Because it sort of

forces the property to be owned by a particular individual type of individual, somebody that wants, you know, to to to have a [clears throat] mother-in-law or what whatever, you know, whatever the case is. And so I think you're right. I think the notorized document within 30 days of sale is a challenge. And I'll leave it at that. I'm curious to see what everybody else's opinion is. But well, then it can kind of escape from what the structure of this is intending and become all kinds of things.

I don't think so. I mean, a lot of times with zoning, you zone by the lot, not by the person. So, this kind of is contrary to that. And I think if you uh you know, so I'm not recommending that we go back to the special [clears throat] permit thing because I think a zoning permit is the right way to go. But if we can require something be filed on the land records that that it's own or if the apartment is rented, it's owned or occupied and then if there's a complaint, we investigate it like any other complaint and say it's not. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. I would agree. I mean, I think owner occupancy I mean I think that that makes it difficult. Um, and you know, if we're using it as a tool to try to increase good quality affordable housing, um, it can be that tool, right? It can be a rental unit that's a little bit cheaper than a than a full scale house because by their nature, they have to be small. So, you're talking about one or two bedroom unit. They're not going to attract children, maybe a single parent with a kid that stayed with them on the weekends. [clears throat] You're not adding the school system. It does limit the regulations does limit to three people occupancy. So and I you know again I think that it could be tricky to enforce.

Um I think you're better off just saying look it's 900 foot maximum and if you want to put a bedroom count on it you can do that too. I don't know. I don't know if it says one or two bedrooms, but if you wanted to, you know, I wrote one of these a few years back that was no more than two bedrooms. 900 square feet, two bedrooms. [clears throat] And that's gross square feet, correct? Yes. Okay. And then um what about limiting the ability to rent it as a short-term rental? Does anybody have any thoughts on that? Because you could put up a ADU and rent [clears throat] it out. Turn around and rent it out as a short-term rental. Yeah. Defeating the purpose. Right.

Right. Yeah. I think you should should post the police on question then. You get into the enforcement problem again. But Right. It's definitely an end run. Well, and then you get into the issue of what is short-term, right? You've got to define the term, [clears throat]

right? I think you end up dealing with a regulatory structure that to deal with that. And I would, you know, I'll play devil's advocate a little bit. If I'm a if I'm a homeowner and I live there and and you know, I want to do a a separate structure on my property. It's large or whatever the case is and I want to do it as an ADU. Is that such a bad thing? I'm making a little income. It's helping me keep my mortgage up. I'm right to [clears throat] keep an eye on it and keep an eye on who the guests are and their behaviors. I don't know that that's a terrible necessarily just something to think about.

And what if their family is visiting? Can they not stay there? Is it like you just get into

Yeah, I think you know if and I don't I think seems to me that the town is pretty welcoming of short-term rentals overall. I mean, it's a lake community. It's been going [clears throat] on for 150 years. Um, I think, you know, when you get into short-term rental regulations, you don't want to do it necessarily through zoning. You want to do it through an ordinance. Um, a lot of communities have, there's a lot of examples across the state regulated short-term rentals. And the ones that have done it through an ordinance have had better luck because enforcement's a lot easier. As you know, zoning enforcement is a is a royal pain. Um, and I think those short-term rental uses is difficult. So, yeah, I don't I don't know how you want to.

And I think I would also just add when I was in Torington, we did not regulate short-term rentals, but we did have issues where people were not using their short-term rentals as a residence. They were renting them for parties or events. And then we had enforcement to say, "Listen, you're not using this as a residential property. you're using as a commercial property and we were able so as long as it regardless of a rental time frame as long as they were using it as a residence and not I mean we had this one they were renting it they were filming music videos there and there was like like this it was bad but we were able to then say that was commercial. Yeah that's

and and get go from that angle to regulate it and there is some case law out there now Um, it's relatively new, but there's a few different cases. Actually, there was one just came out of West Hartford not too long ago. Um, that says, I mean, you're treating it's a it's a it's a single family residence. It's a single family residence. So, unless you've got something in your ordinances that defines that differently, there's not much we can do to regulate it. Now, if it's a commercial use, as Rrista said, or if you know, if you find out, and you could regulate it this way now, if you find out that somebody's renting out four different bedrooms within a house to four different groups of people that are not, you know, cohabitating and using it as a family, that's could be an enforcement issue because it's a single family zone, you know, whatever the case may be.

So, I want to go back, you said something about um zoning permit use. Our use table says it's a special permit, right? But so yeah. So in your So in your staff report, you're you're suggesting or having a discussion that we consider making it allowed by a zoning permit. Right. So I'm just saying I agree with that. But one [clears throat] of the benefits of a site plan

was that or a special exception was that gets filed on the land record. So the person buying it is aware that it has to be owner occupied. So by changing it to zoning permit, we might want to put something gets filed on the land record so any future owner knows it's owner occupied and not a two family but an accessory unit. Yeah. So we're going to take away with special requirements from the zoning board of appeals. We'll take that section out. That's B. Oh, that's right. Yeah, that that's [clears throat] part of the confusion is that your use table has it as a special permit and the language says it's a special exception through the CBA

and I'm simply throwing out there maybe we want to think about doing it as a zoning permit rather than rather than having somebody commission anyway. You have pretty specific regulations. I think Rrista's right. If you go with a zoning permit then that that gets filed land records so that it's in the chain of title. Again, just something to think about here. I'm good with it being a zoning permit as long as it's totally compliant at the time. Yeah. Yes, I agree. Yeah. Me, too. [clears throat] Okay. So, um

So, can I just clarify what you mean by that? Because we might want to have summer zoning permit, summer special exception. What if I have a single family house with a garage and I want to turn the bonus room into an apartment, but the house is old and it's nonconforming that I'm not changing any of the non-conforming setbacks, but I'm changing the use over the garage. Are you comfortable with that still being a zoning permit? It's a pre-existing structure, right? That would be okay. Yeah. Right. So, anything new would have to conform anyway, right? Have to comply.

Have to conform. So, I think what we should do Again, I've done this in another community is add a line that says no uh variances shall be issued to allow the new to allow new construction new construction. Yeah. To take that that avenue away from So So you can't go in get a zoning get a variance to put on a giant addition to your house that doesn't conform and then turn that into an ADU. But you could use an existing building that maybe doesn't meet the requirements. You can you can do it on a lot that doesn't meet the requirements. That's fine. Any other comments on on that, John?

Uh, not on that. I I had a comment on another section. Yeah, we're going down through. Okay. And you're going to add in the uh septic of area. I'll work on some. Okay. So, the next one is a accessory outdoor dining.

So, this is a statuto thing. Um, back in 2022, um, public act 22-1 section 2 states that each municipality shall allow any licency or perity of a food establishment operating in such municipality to engage in outdoor food and beverage services as an accessory use of such food establishment per use. We're not doing that. So, we need to get ourselves in line with the statute. Um, it is currently allowed updating is currently allowed as a zoning permit in the town center zone. Um, but it's not allowed anywhere else where you have restaurants. So, I think we just need to put some language in there that it's a it's a zoning permit um to be consistent with the statute anywhere that there's an existing restaurant. Restaurants are allowed I think in the they're allowed in in Highland Business Town Center Residential Town Gateway and PNI. So we need to just add that

understand that covers issues there. Any comments? Anybody? No. Is there a simpler way to do it like just I think it's just it's an accessory use of a restaurant and it's allowed wherever a restaurant's permitted.

Yeah. I think I think what we'll do is Yeah. Right. accessory outdoor dining to a peritted restaurant. In parenthesis, it has a has a line on the use table and it can be separations. This is a question that's come up a couple of times. you or the commission rather earlier in the year I think when we were codifying had said um let's treat renewals earth excavation renewals as a new special permit hold a hearing I'm just clarifying you still want to keep doing that and if so there's just a couple of little language pieces that we need to clean up that didn't get cleaned up the last time around I think historically you were doing earth excavation renewals as a kind of a site plan without a special permit, without a or rather without public hearing. Um, that was changed, I don't know, seven, eight months ago or so. Um, want to make sure that you're happy with that new process. And if so, then I just need to clean up the language of that section.

Yeah, I think we we need to because we changed it for reasons that we had or issues. We want to review it that way. There we can review it. [clears throat] you know what's been removed, what their intent is for the next two years to they plan to remove. So you're saying to keep a public hearing? Yeah.

Good. I will um give you clean up language in the next month just to deal with that excavation renewal piece because it talks about a fee which is a separate fee for renewal. So we need to just clean that a little bit. All right. Next one is family and group daycare and that's a state regulation too.

Yeah. Again, [clears throat] this is a um um a use that is required to be as of right uh you rather you cannot prohibit the operation in a residential zone of any family daycare home child care home located in a residence and there's statuto provisions to that. I think the maximum number is 12. Um and And we need to just get this into the use table as a zoning permit in your residential zones. We already define it. Um, [clears throat] we already do. We already have these in res. The state mandated. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, we already have them in in residential sections, but we don't it was allowed in all sections, I think.

We don't have them. Uh, but we Okay. So, what is this doing? What is this doing that's different than we already we do? So, I don't It's allowed anywhere. Oh, and and it could be a use table problem. Um maybe we just need to simply get the use table. It could be a use table, but I thought in our regulations it states Yeah. Okay. I'll go back through that. I I I'll make sure that we're in good shape there. If if you're all on board with that, you kind of have to be. So, yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that came through when we Okay. It was a mandatory thing from the state. Okay. And it was you had that discussion. I'll go back and just

Yeah, it's it's that's the issue is it's not in the use table. I have one of those. Uh, look at the definitions because we have family daycare home which I think traditionally has been six units or less treated like a group home but this was expanded it to those groups to 12. So we might have to redefine that.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, that's what we'll do. We'll add it to the use table. We'll fix the definition.

Okay. Cool. So, the next [clears throat] one is family compounds, but I think let's just forget that one for a moment and we'll move on to farm stands and we'll get through these big ones that are [clears throat] already have regulations on. [snorts] So, farm stands. Yeah. So, currently, and this this is something I think we talked with you, I don't know, maybe a month or so ago, um, you know, you currently allow for permanent farm stands, uh, by site plan review. It's under section 41540. Um, and, you know, part of the cottage food industry piece, and that's kind of where this comes into play. Um, I think we've had some conversations in the office office office with folks that have cottage food uh licenses, which we can't [clears throat]

um wanting to sell their goods sort of from their porch or from a push card or whatever the case is. And we really have we have nothing in the regulation that allows that. I think this came up not too long ago, somebody that had some signs. It came up on Birds All Street.

Yeah, that's right. Two months ago. So, you know, I just want to have a conversation about how do we do we want to um do anything with this temporary farm stands that are, you know, sort of not these large farm stands that have a a whole section dedicated to them where somebody comes in front of you and and gets a site plan approval, but instead a small thing either we regulate it, we put rules in there, but we don't issue any permits or we issue a zoning permit for it. Something along those lines. Who who licenses where they get licens? So they get it through the state, not the Torington area health. They get it through state, right? Am I right or is it Torington area? No, I think it's DPH.

I think it's DPH. I think Cottage Industries or DPH. Yeah, it's DPH. I see. Okay. Yeah. And there's a whole host of stuff. I was going to say they probably have a lot of rules. They do, but they but they tell you that you have to you have to you have to also abide by your zoning regulations. So, we can have zoning regulations surrounding it. I don't know that we need zoning regulations around the cottage food industry. That's pretty straightforward. Yeah. But in regards to the sale of Yeah. of their items or somebody making breads or you know, whatever the case is, we have this permanent farm stand which is not what most of these folks want to do,

right? Is there a So I think you know the cottage industry is very specific to making something in your kitchen, jelly, fudge, bread, but I think what we're talking about is more I'm going to use the word homesteading, but that might not be the right term, but it could be eggs, it could be flowers, it could be, you know, baskets. I mean, but so but but something that's made at home or grown at home or produced at home that you're selling in a small little cart. So maybe it's like a homesteading cart that's you know 5 by 10 and you know easily movable and how does DPH define this? They don't I mean it's not they they don't restrict it. They don't restrict reselling of other goods or

commercial cottage foods. Basically you you create something in your kitchen. I know. I just want to then you take it and deliver it. You don't sell it from your house. I see. Yeah. It's a persontoerson transaction. You can't ship it but you can. Right. You take Yeah. But if you have a stand in front of your house, you can you'll sell it to the public, right? Going by or something. Yeah. What I'm saying is if I have five chickens and I have eggs, right? [clears throat] That's not a cottage kitchen. That's not a cottage food, but somebody might want to sell it. So, I'm just saying I don't think we want to be restrictive, right? But like they're all over the homesteading cart that allows cottage industry eggs, flowers.

Yeah, you're you're right. You're spot on. I mean, this came to us because of the cottage food industry. So, that's kind of where the coming from with this. But Rrist is right. I mean, somebody you we allow people to have chickens on their land, right? And so they're going to want to get rid of their excess. And we know that that stuff is going on, right? I mean, it happens all the time. Um, so I think the question is, do we do we want to put something in there that sort of right because you have you have um permissible regulations. If it's in the regulations, it's allowed. If it's what would be what would we be regulating then? The DPH is covering all of the stuff. You mean like if they put a big sign neon sign in front of it or something? [clears throat]

I think you're I think you're regulating sort of location, right? To say it can be driveway or adjacent to the driveway. I see. And signage I think is is a partage. Parking I mean you got some of the streets are narrow and things like that. I mean if you have customers more than one car or two cars parked there. The tradition is just only like right you know car comes up real quick go typically right typically you're not going to have one more than one or two cars there.

Um it's just one of those things where the question gets asked to us there's no regulation. Therefore it's not allowed. You know the guy on well he probably has a farm permit but you know I bought eggs from the guy over here on on to street you know just down the just down the hill from the center of town. I don't know if he has a permit or not to do that. I don't know if he's technically a farm or if he just has chickens. sells his eggs. Mhm. It's not a problem. There's plenty of room there. You pull in, you grab your eggs, throw your six drives away, place to park, keep moving. Right. Right. But when we get the question, it's not a lot. Yeah. So, that's [clears throat] what we're trying to figure out. So, are you familiar with um any such zoning rags around the the cottage use permitted? Oh, yeah. From towns around.

They're out there. And that's that's why I'm having the conversation because if the commission said, "Nope, we don't even want to talk about it," I wouldn't bother. Yeah. Pulling them together for you. So I sort of like if when you're looking at maybe drafting a regulation and I don't know anybody else feels but if it's small and we could define what's small 5 by 10 3x4 whatever the size is. It's on their property not in the right of way. The sign can't be you know has to be a small sign. Um only selling stuff that's made or grown or produced on that property from that property. I think that should be allowed. I agree. You know it needs to be but just like an allowed use and then anything bigger than that maybe needs a zoning permit or special exception or something.

Yeah, it needs to be limited to grown or produced on that property, not homesteading cart. I like that. Brought from another place, not from another location. So that I mean I'll look it up, but my question is again, does DPH define all that size? No. No, they have to adhere to local zoning regulations. Okay. So they don't really address it at all. We're not even addressing the cottage kitchen because we don't really It's bigger, right? What we're trying to address is bigger and it's going to end up encompassing those folks that have a cottage license, right? But we're not going to we're not going to regulate what the size of their no kitchen because DPH is already doing that. Got it. So,

so we're just regulating the what they sell, how they sell, how they market, and if they have allowed to have a homesteading cart, but they don't have enough acres, they're not allowed to have chickens, they can't sell eggs in their homesteading cart because they can't have the chickens. Exactly. Right. Like, this doesn't preempt any of those other things. Y it's just if you're allowed, and I think of Prat Street, to grow flowers on your property and you want to sell flowers on your driveway, right, go ahead and do it. Y So, we should do that. We should have some I I like the whole concept of some guidance on that. It just and it's limited to what you can grow. You're not going to can't go out and bring produce in.

You can't be selling corn that you're not growing and all that stuff. Yeah, I think that's a a good move. Yeah, you may want to look at, you know, some hours of operation, too. Well, a lot of those are no different than if you have visitors stopping by. Yes. Yeah. Oh, you know, plus there aren't any, you know, like Jeremy was saying, you just pull up, you throw your money in the bucket, you take your eggs. So, it's not like there's hours you could do that as long as the eggs are out. So, it's kind of hard to regulate hours. Yep. No lighting.

No, no offsite signage. Yeah, definitely something on the size of the sign. Small. Yeah, no permanent signs.

And I think it's important that whatever the structure is, it's movable. It's movable. If it's close to the road, it has to be it's or has to meet setbacks or you have to be able to move. Yeah. Not permanent. Yeah. Non-permanent structure unless it's, you know, on your porch. You know, if you want to throw a table on [clears throat] your porch and you want people to walk on your porch, I wouldn't, but have at it. Yeah. [clears throat] You all set? I'm good. Okay. Next one's flood plane regulations.

Okay. So, flood plane regulations, as I say here, um the town has a chapter in the code. It's 231. It's old. It has not been updated in I'm not quite sure when, quite frankly, the last time it was updated. Um, but I think that we should probably codify the state model regulations which were updated 2018ish. Does that sound right to you? Somewhere been out of the flood plane, but yeah, somewhere somewhere somewhere around there.

Um, and because Jeff is name as the CEO is named as the uh flood plane manager for the town, to me, it makes sense to just bring it into your zoning regulations. It's what a lot of towns do most of the time as part of zoning regul. It's not necessarily part of the town code. You can do it as an ordinance, but I think it's a little bit more nimble when it's a zoning regulation, especially for him as the CEO to review the site plans and for you when D comes out with new model rags to just adopt it rather than having to run through. So, we can update them at that time when they come up. My suggestion is to to incorporate the state into yours. So, that would necessitate uh rescending the ordinance.

I'll have to talk with Paul about his But yes, that would be or or a change to the ordinance that simply reflects the zoning regulations as so I think before we do that we should present this to the board of selectmen to make sure that they're well like he says let Paul handle that part. But but I wouldn't say we're doing this so therefore I would I would like make sure but it does make a lot of sense because it's like you just said easier to change and the problem with FEMA and the limited funding as it's getting more limited. Um if you're not compliant with the model rags they'll just say we're not going to invest any money in your town.

So we don't want to mess around with that. Aren't they getting ready to do an update on the uh flood rs

on the flood mapping? There's a study [clears throat] happening I think right now for part of the watershed here because the the the flood mapping in in Lichfield County hasn't been done since I think the late 70s. Most of the state was done in like 2008. Um and so you know they're finally getting around to Lichfield County and Windham County are kind of the two areas because it's not the Connecticut River, it's not the shoreline. So it sort of got left to the wayside and so your flood maps are from the late 70s and they are currently working on flood study right now. Um but as far as I know the regulations aren't being updated at this time. Okay. So I will I'll have a conversation with Paul about how he wants to proceed on his We'll get back to you on that.

So, let's go to the next one there. Parking lot. No, no, we're going to skip lodging and mix use. We'll get to the ones that he's got highlighted that we need to get done, then we'll [clears throat] go back.

Okay. So, this is again, this is another statuto and it's, you know, it's it's one of these things that you really don't have to put it in your zoning regulations, but I think it's a good idea. Uh public act 2225 requires that any new construction of a commercial or multi-unit building uh requires that at least 10% of the parking spaces for a lot more that contains more than 30 uh be outfitted with EV parking EV charging equipment. Um the building code picks that up. How many? 10%. Yeah. So if it's a 30 spot, it's three and so on. Yep.

Um building code picks that up. We as staff pick that up. But again, it's one of these things that I personally think it should be in your zoning regulations. Yep.

Any concerns or questions there? Inserted into the parking section. Yeah, I think so. I mean, the only place it would have come into [clears throat] into play right now would have been up at the school that got changed over to affordable housing or probably should have done something there, but we didn't. Right. And when was that approved? Might have been before the It was uh Well, it could have been Yeah. January 23. It was March. Yeah, like March. Oh, wait a minute. This is honor after January 2023, right? You've also got the old hospital building, too. Another one. Yeah, I was just thinking about that.

And I don't know when those were approved. Of course, those aren't new construction. [clears throat] Lots are I don't know. Well, there was there was some new construction up there on Spencer Hill, but that was decades ago. So, yeah. So, we should I think we should put it in definitely. Well, you guys are We're not done yet. [laughter] We're saving the hard ones. We're saving the hard ones afterwards. Get the easy ones done. We're lulling you into a false sense of security. Hey, they're your regulation. So, you know, it's fine.

Okay. So, now your next one, shipping containers, kind of rolls into containers for refuge. So, I don't quite know. We We're gonna Should we No, but you're trying I know what you're saying. Like building a tiny house out of a storage container.

I don't think I'm saying that at all. I mean, you know, certainly people if you get created that's something that's doable and you know, you see structures and everything else. I think it came up and I don't know if it was you Peter. Somebody brought up shipping containers at the last meeting and Jeff and I were talking about it and you know there there's nothing in the regulation right now regarding shipping containers. He he mentioned that there's a few out there. There's some in town people are using sheds or storage or whatever it is. Right.

Your container section which is 41534 talks about um fencing containment gates and all this kind of stuff. And then when you go to your regular when you go to your definitions, containers are strictly refuge containers. So a shipping container isn't covered by 415 34 containers at all. Um and so I think if I think if the commission wants to regulate shipping containers, which right now if you read the definition of structure, they're a structure and therefore they're eligible for a zoning permit as an accessory structure. I could get a zoning permit tomorrow and drop a shipping container in my backyard assuming it complies with setbacks and everything else and away I go. I don't know if the commission wants that to be happening. And I think that's that's what we're talking about here is, you know, do we want to regulate these differently than a structure? Do we want to put some guidelines on them? Do you want to prohibit them entirely? Um that that's really the question for you all.

I don't think we should prohibit them entirely. I don't either. I mean, there's just they serve a purpose. Too many uses out there, right? Yeah. But I think we should regulate them somehow. But I don't think you should call it like it shouldn't fall under the same reg regulation as like a dumpster either. I think there's got to be some I think an accessory [clears throat] use. Yeah. Or an accessory building. So it has to same Yeah. It has to meet the same I mean they're they're either being shed they're either being used for storage of some type or like they call it a contract. So that's how we would regulate it right now. So if so if the commission's content with that then then we don't need to do anything which I think is fine.

When is a shipping container not a shipping container? Because right now there's all these plans out there for putting two containers down side by side and putting a roof over the top of them and creating a an area between them. And you got the two doors for the container and then you can put a a garage door up on the space in between them. So is that a shipping container or It's still a structure. It's a structure structure. So So a shipping container would be a structure. Okay. Yeah. And you're saying that's already at the beginning. It's already being addressed under structures,

right? It would I mean, you know, I I think and it's an enforcement thing more than anything else. I think it's happening right now where if they're getting dropped in place without zoning permit, they would require a zoning. I mean, clover farm sheds do I shouldn't say, but I know a pre-built shed same. You can have the same issue, right? So, you know, and I don't know from a visual standpoint. I don't know if the commission wants to regulate them a little bit. I'm just We were talking about it internally. We thought let's bring it up with the group and see what everybody says. if you're content with it being a zoning permit.

So, how about the ones you rent? You know, you rent something like a pod or something and then it goes in your front yard and it's not like a waste receptacle that's going to be hauled off with the, you know, renovation waste. It's kind of this thing that's sitting in your front yard as a storage unit. Are those are those already are those already regulated under structures? Oh, well I've seen some in places for a long time. And I think that right that gets to the point what you're Yeah.

Well, yeah. I mean, sort of right because it in theory a pod gets dropped off, you load it up because you're moving and then it gets picked up and moved away. Now, I don't know how that works. If you if you get a pod, for example, I I don't know what the cost structure is like. So, I don't know how people have them in their yards for years at a time. I don't know how that piece works, but yeah, I don't either. But I feel like If there was a complaint and you had to go out there and do an enforcement action, you would say, "Show me the contract, what when's the date it's going to be taken away?" Otherwise, if you have a day in a contract that's going to be taken away, right? Now, if the pod labels peeled off and there's no contract, then it's a structure. Then it's a structure. You got to move it. You need to set back.

Exactly. It sounds like you already have the tools to kind of address that. So like the containers, you know, you most people I think buy them. You can rent them. Construction sites have bring their own in. Um some of your warehouses I think around town have got storage containers. Public works has them. Public works has them. Yeah. So, if they're in say a non-industrial area, do you want to require them to be sort of painted or they can still have all this writing on

writing on the sides and all that? I mean, because you're moving from an industrial type of usage to residential use. So we don't require your sheds to be painted. So yeah, you start to get aesthetics to be a solid color but paint it lime green. Yeah. Right. Has to be the same. I mean, I worked in a town that had a regulation that said all your accessory structures and residential zones had to be the same material as the primary structure. So if you had wood siding, you had to have wood siding on your ex your accessory buildings, too. I don't know if we want to get into that.

Probably don't need to for the most part. But what about like signage? Like you don't want a container that says mayor's on the side in the side in your backyard. You know, that would fall under like outside the regulations for signage as well. So that unless you're talking about, you know, graffiti or something like that. Will be referring to uh signs on the side of the container. Yeah, the names, right? That's what I thought. That that that's exactly what I was referring to. Yeah. So, we also need to define on you know commercial uh industrial use or

residential use because you know public works, you know, if you got I can almost bet there's probably storage containers up in industrial park behind some buildings. Yeah, sure. There's tons of them up there. [clears throat] Pretty typical. So, we have to figure out how we're going to draw that line. Well, we have different setbacks, different requirements, you know, residential versus industrial. It just, you know, are they pretty? No. Do we want to get into enforcing the aesthetics of that? And that kind I'm kind of torn on that one, but

just because it's an enforcement nightmare. Which ones are preexisting? What colors are going to like I I I just Well, we don't do that with a shed, right? No. You know, and if somebody say a neighbor can see it, are they going to be less offended if it's painted white than if it had a name on the side? Probably not. Or if the kids use it for a paintball target, right? That's one way to get a paint. All right. So, are we leaning towards just leave it as it is? It's an accessory structure and Yeah, I think so.

Okay. What's the next one over here? Um,

signage in the windows. So, I drove around today and looking at signage your convenience stores. They all have the lotto signs in them. They have different signs up there. They're not offensive. Uh you got your new vaping shop down here that's got the fluorescent lights going around the side. Um, you've seen other baking shops, different places where their signage and window stuff gets pretty pretty weird. So, if it's a paper sign, you know, should we regulate something paper in there or just regulate the lid up part? That's my view point.

Well, we already regulate sign illumination. So, let me see what this regular signage, but illumination, but you know, they got Coca-Cola signs. They got battery signs. Um I don't We don't regulate it in windows though, do we? That's the point. We're regulating regulate windows. We're regulating on buildings, perpendicular signs, all exterior, but not window signage. Well, and that's, you know, again, it gets down to that's, you know, that's that's where you come into play. Okay, you have building awning signage monument freestanding. I forgot what else. There's a few others

and nothing talks about window signage. So again, if you look at these as permissible rags because it's not listed, technically it's not allowed, right? But we sort of just accept that it's a reality that, you know, these businesses are going to put all kinds of stuff in their windows and and so and that's fine. I mean, you know, personally, I don't have much of a problem with it because it's just sort of part of the landscape. I think you're right. I think when you get the businesses that put the neon or LED, you know, lights all the way around the windows that flash at you, then we're into a different category. And, you know, convenience stores are known for that fate. And smoke shops are really

I mean, I was looking at uh Dairy Queen. They've got signs inside the window for the Dairy Queen and they get their pricing sign and all that. I mean, do we want to do I don't see think that's normal for that type of business,

right? And we wouldn't be regulate like open signs, um, hours of operation, those types of things aren't we can't regulate those. They're not advertising [clears throat] signs. So that's, you know, that's where you have to drop the line, too. But if you have a smoke shop, for example, that puts up a 2x4 panel that's flashing at you that says, you know, vape in the window, that is something. But you're saying that's already not allowed because we don't have anything about rigs. Right. Right. So, so I I would I think we're talking about two different things.

So, in the regulations, we also we already prohibit no sign shall be flashing, animating, pulsing, moving, or rotating. So, if we have a vape flashing sign or we can say that [clears throat] regardless of whether it's on the outside of the building or whether it's in the window Yeah. You can't. And I've had some visible to the outside, right? But but so so I think we can can regulate that from a window signage. I think you know we can't regulate content but we can regulate if we wanted to allow it which I think makes sense the percentage of windows that are covered about you know window signage is about 50% of the window

no more than 50% of the windows are covered right that that way you still have some visibility I think that's also a safety concern you know if something's going on police want to be able to see in there you know I would I would think we would want something along those lines and just Okay. But right now, Jeremy, if someone if a merchant were to ask you about this, they probably don't usually ask. They just put up stuff. But if they were to ask you, you'd say, "Well, technically no signs are allowed." Read through the zoning rag. You read through the sign section. The window signage is not one of the types that we we regulate. But we also recognize that

it's unrealistic, right? Well, I mean, once you do a regulation, then you know, does that open all doors and everybody rushes in and puts 50 covers up 50% of their windows? I don't think so. I think it makes it easier to say, you know, especially at time of, you know, if you've got if you've got a new business moving in, you know, we have those conversations. Well, what kind of a sign can I have? Well, you can have a wall sign and you can or you can have, you know, whatever it is, facade, awning, so on and so forth. And we can say, "Oh, and by the way, only 50% of your window." [clears throat] Package stores are usually the biggest violations. Yeah, gas station.

Well, most of the gas stations, the lower part of the window is where their coolers are and everything. And then they only got that little space up on the top. Yeah. And [clears throat] I think we have see the 50% kind of gets kind of weird here because if they got glass structure out there and then they got their cigarettes and their coolers there that they've got plywood up against the windows. So you don't look through the glass, you're looking at an obstacle on the other side. Is that [clears throat] a window or is that not a window? That's a window. It's a window.

It's a window. So, all the gas stations are in violation that have their coolers up against the windows, but the coolers aren't signs. They're not signs. Okay. They're grayed out. Yeah. All right. So, that's a that's a good argument. Yeah. They're not a sign. So, they could instead of graying that section out, if they wanted to be able to insert signs back there. Mhm. They could. All right. So, uh you said we have regulations on the lights. Yeah. Flashing screening. [clears throat] Flashing, animated, pulsing, moving, or rotating type. God, I used to love that deluxe package store, son.

It was here when I moved in. It was the last of its kind. It was. Yeah. Yeah. It also says exposed or unshaded uh incandescent or fluorescent electric light bulbs or neon shall not be allowed by themselves or as part of any sign except as part of a seasonal decoration or community event or celebration. So I think we regulate the lighting already. you do a fairly good job. [snorts] And then in the lighting regulations, I think you could lean on that, too, because there's some there's some comments in there about not being able to see the source of light.

So, we going to change anything or just let it kind of go the way it is? I think allow window signs up to a maximum of 50% of the window area. Just something simple and just allowed, right? Allowed. All right. So, at least something is allowed there. So, [clears throat] if you're a pessimist, you say 50% is not, [laughter] right? Yeah. Right. Okay, next one is temporary healthc care structure. That's another public act. We're going over smoke shops.

Yeah. So smoke shops. Okay. I thought that was part of the signage. All right. Skipping that one, too. Now we're almost to the end. So yeah. Well, we're behind the eightball on that one, right? [clears throat] We have signage.

Yeah. Yeah, I I think you know, again, this is a question for you all. Is it is it something that you want to take up? Um there are communities that are doing it. I've gave you a couple of examples there where they create a definition for smoke shop and then they, you know, therefore it becomes a different use. They put it in their use table and it's only allowed in certain zones. So, you know, it was a again a conversation internally within the office. Do we want to do something to kind of keep these off from Main Street? And you know, if it really I think a lot of times with these it comes down to the signage as you just alluded to, right? It's it's there's lights, there's all sorts of crazy stuff that goes on. And we used to battle with one guy in Sington who always had his wacky armed flailing inflatable thing out in front of the smoke shop which weren't allowed. And so our CEO was down there telling him to pull it in all the time. You know, every Friday it would come out and then it would disappear Monday morning. Chalk.

[laughter] So noon time Friday it came pretty much. Yeah. So you know again it's just it's a question for the commission. Is it something we're worried about? I mean you know there are vacancies on Main Street. We want those filled. Obviously we we want businesses on Main Street but um you know it's just one of those types of uses. You you do allow currently they're allowed as a small retail shop I think it would be considered. Um, but you exclude convenience stores from from the main street zone, from Town Center. So, you know, and I We do. You do? Yeah. Convenience stores are regulated separately and they're not allowed in Town Center. How did Papas get in? He's got fresh fruit and vegetables.

A small ger selling food. Is that one of those uses that you have to allow somewhere in your town, but not? I don't think so. We could We could prohibit it altogether. I think you could. I mean, I don't I don't know that I don't know that you need to. I mean, you know, I'm just trying to think where else we would Yeah, I think you'd allow it in town. I think you probably don't want Main Street lined up with three or four of them, right? And they're coming. They're, you know, Well, they're here. [clears throat] Yeah. Well, we've had one before. That's true. And we still have one all the time. Where's the news?

Yeah. Yeah. Somewhat. So, yeah. Yeah. But we had one on the corner of Union Street and that didn't last long. Yeah. They kind of reg kind of dictates that. Yeah. They happen with no one. We've had a few inquiries. There was somebody interested in the old Cathy's cleaner going in there. Yeah. One that's already going in down here. There might have been a third inquiry, but I can't wear it over right now. But, you know, again, just something to think about. If you want to pursue it, you can. If not, that's fine, too. I don't like them. I don't either. Yeah. No, I think the less we have them, the less is better.

Yeah. And something like Papa's, you know, you walk into Papa, they got all their smoke stuff there, but it's not what's the one term? Smoke monkey or something. Yeah. you know, with a big monkey with a big cigar in the front. Like that's a different vibe. You can still Yeah. And I think in the regulation you deal if you look at if you look at orange, actually I think all of those, you know, they they say it's a shop with a certain percentage of its floor space or or display space dedicated to those products, 15 or 20%, whatever it is. You know, a small grocery store That's not that's not going to be 15%.

It's just not it's going to be behind the counter or whatever. I've never been in there, but I can imagine what it looks like. It's probably stuff that's behind the counter. Yeah. I mean, I think we should have something to, you know, keep them in the town gateway like say P and I like that. Keep them out of town center as much as possible. Okay. All right. So, we'll devel we'll draft up some rags. We'll we'll use some others that are out there. All right. temporary healthc care structure.

Um, so this is another one that's a [clears throat] there's nothing that says it's not allowed. So I'm not concerned about that from from that standpoint. Um, because it's considered an accessory structure in accordance with the statute. But again, I think it's a good idea to put it in your use table so that if somebody's looking for it, there it is. Um, these are small uh self-contained units that are built offsite. They get dropped in. They get hooked up to uh your sewer and water at the at the site. DPH regulates them. Um and and then they're gone once they're no longer needed. So they're often called granny pods. Um there is a state law that you have to allow them as a right. So we already do because we have this was a public act 2017. Pretty old.

How is this different? we were talking about. So, they're temporary and and they are meant to be temporary. The idea is that um they're expensive. I've never seen one get installed. So, let me first say that. Okay. Just set the just set the table. Yeah. Because I I'm not I've never seen one. Yeah. And [clears throat] neither of you know I've been doing this and the public acts been around for eight years. I don't know if you've seen one, Rrista. No. I don't know if anybody I was thinking you were talking about like ramps and like a No, no. The Granny Pop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I came out a few years ago. So, they they I'm not sure what it's for. What What is a granny pod? Being a granny myself,

they are they are self-contained temporary health care units. So, if you had somebody that needed home care, needed to be taken care of 247 rather than putting them in a home, you could bring one of these things to your house, have it set in your backyard. It's essentially an accessory unit for like a home healthare worker to stay in. Nope. For for the individual that needs to be cars, they're self-contained. They usually have lifts and kitchen, you know, it's they are basically a And why do you say temporary? I mean, if you needed that, aren't you going to need it for per per Well, I mean

temporary because it's short likely to be right. That's enough for that. Once it's once it's no longer in use. Oh, come on. You guys don't worry about it until you see them putting one up in your Yeah. Really? Holy smokes. You got room in your yard for another one. Wow. We're allow That's what she's got the camper for. We're really Ouch. [laughter] That's like So, do we need to do anything again? I I I would add it as a use in the use table just so that it's there because because the state law requires it. How do you hook that up to a use and a then add a definition?

I would I would add add it as a use and add a definition. It's how do you hook it up to the infrastructure? Um it depends. I mean if you're if you're on sewer and water Yeah. then it's a pretty simple straightforward hookup. Um if you're on septic and Yeah. You have to dig a channel to Yeah. Yeah. Or you connect it directly to the house's connection, whatever the case is. But yeah, it's like the expense of that would be worth. Yeah. Really? Exactly. I'd rather have an ADU on the Yeah. You know, the the difference is you can rent them from these company. There's a company actually in New York that makes them. And that's I think kind of why Connecticut enacted this statute. There's a few other states in the Northeast that have it. Okay.

And there's a company right over the line. I forget exactly where it is in New York. It's not far outside of Connecticut that makes these. And Yeah. Yeah. So, do you have to prove that this there's a, you know, an infirmed person? Yep. There's notorized documents and everything else. You would reference the stat. Sick granny. Okay. A little levity in the zoning process. Sick granny concept. Okay. [clears throat] We're all temporary. Yeah. I I I hear you. But we're closer to it than you are. [laughter] You know, you never know. Well, that's true. That's part of the fun. Yeah. [laughter] All right.

So, the next one is subdivision regulations, article nine, fire protection. So, this was Peter brought this up. Um, you know, I went through those subdivision regal regulations seem seem I don't see any issues with it. I think they're fine. You brought up fire protection. Um, article 9 deals with fire protection. Um, you have broad authority to require the construction of a or a dry hydrant. What the regulation does not address are um sistns sistns. Thank you, tanks. So you you might want to add that in there.

That's that's something that been discussed since I've been on the commission for forever. I mean like you said you need to add Winston fire department into that require in certain circumstances maybe if a fire ponder hydr is not feasible then a sister becomes a requirement. Yeah. So it could be any one of those three. Why why hasn't been fire protection such as fire pract but you said it's been been talked about for years since you've been at why I've given copies of regulations to previous planners and it went absolutely nowhere. Okay. But you can't think of a reason that it's not been included ignored. Okay. It was never included. Gotcha. [clears throat] So you were saying the sister part was never right. The sister part was never included. There's no reason we shouldn't add that.

Yeah. I think it's kind of a norainer. Right. You know, I've worked in towns where they're just simply required over a certain Well, and it should be usually it's five. No, if there's a subdivision of five or more, then a sister of a certain size is required. The biggest thing issue with it is who's responsible for the maintenance of it and everything else because you don't want to put that on the town or on the fire department or public works to be the one to maintain it, you But then the developer goes away and there's no Well, they're going to have to have a property owners group to maintain it, right? You know, that's that's the thing. Well, whose responsibility should it be

from your not fire departments because if that thing leaks and there's no water in it, then you could be spending $50 to $100,000 to replace it, right? And you don't want that on the town or the fire department. You know, a real example of that is, you know, I worked in a in a community that required sistns and this was before before I was there. So, I I don't never had a full understanding of how this happened, but sister was installed. It was cracked. Yeah. Uh when the town tested it, it was full of water, right? But, you know, the developer went away. Yeah. We have one in town now that, you know, the developer put in. It was poured in place in sections and

I don't know if there's water in it. It's been there for 10 years. The town accepted it, but it's up on Reaching Hill Road. They should be constructed so that the storm water system directs. No one maintains it. No one cuts the brush around it. Nothing. So, do we want to So, that's an obvious failure that's about to happen. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Won't they be happy up there? Somebody will. Yeah. Well, Wow, [clears throat] that's a mess. Okay, so do we just want to require that the developer provides fire protection, whether it's a fire pond or a dry hydrant or a sister, whatever is most appropriate and maintains it. Yeah. Yeah. And any any subdivision of five or more.

Yeah, I think that's I think that's appropriate. There's another there's another enforcement. Uh yeah, you catch those though early. No, we'll catch it when it comes to us with through a subdivision. I mean, as the years I've been on here, we haven't had a subdivision come in unless it's two lots or [music] something very small. Large ones. Yeah. I think this is a good time to do it if Wallace Hill goes the direction.

And you know, there's a large there's 51 acres up on 263 in Winchester that's been for sale for several years. There's land partially in Colbrook, partially in Winston on 44. There's like 160 acres up there for sale. So, you've got places like that and there just isn't water supply around to get water for fire protection. So, your next comment here, the references to the Winchester Fire Department, should it be should be both? Both, right? Should should include both? Yes, definitely. Yeah. family compounds or anything. What's

that? Well, let's go back and do the we'll go backwards now. Let's do mixeduse properties in the town center.

Okay. So, so this is a sort of again um a clarification to some extent and an attempt to make the process simpler I think for folks. Um currently mixed uses require a special permit within your town center zone. So if somebody came in and wanted to build something new with commercial on the ground apartments [clears throat] up above, it's going to require a special permit. Um there's a lot of buildings obviously around here that predate your zoning regulations that have had that kind of setup forever. And so we have had this conversation in the office because there's been a number of property owners over the last I'm going to say two months or so that have expressed interest in just shifting that around. Maybe it's adding an additional residential unit upstairs or it's taking a portion of the commercial unit that's somewhere and and flipping it to residential or sort of changing on the ground floor within.

Yeah. Because there aren't any commercial things on the second floor, right? There's a couple of buildings that have some office space on the second floor, right?

And so there's been some interest in converting some of that office space to residential. And so we've just been having the conversation internally of okay, it's a special permit use. So if you follow that line of It's a special permit use. If somebody wants to do something different on the inside of the building, it's a modification to the special permit. Now, if you have an old building, you don't have a special permit on file because it's been that historically forever. Do we make them come in and get a special permit or do we do it by zoning permit? So, we kind of wanted to just have this conversation. You know, there's this the new housing bill that's that's maybe going to be approved this week, who knows? We'll see. Um is full of carrots and not so many sticks. And one of the carrots is uh if you're allowing um commercial conversions to residential in your in your regulations by right, you uh have access to priority funding for gray field um priority gray field infrastructure funding. So, you know, it's one of those things where do we want to just make a cleaner process there? How do we want to handle those? So I'm surpris I don't know maybe this is a little too far. I don't think mixed juice with commercial on the first floor and residential on the second third floor should be a special exception. I think we want that.

I agree. So so I think that should be a site plan. However, if there are specific uses within the commercial that then require a special exception that use would get the special exception. But as a mixed juice, I don't think that should be a that's what we want. We want to encourage as much of that as possible. And I think special exception on the first floor for residential. Okay. Special exception to the CBA or special permit to permit here. Special permit coming here. I always use those the same. I forget which they're fine in statute, but you guys, this town differentiates the two. Special come here.

So now we're not talking Main Street. We're t were we talking? We are talking. Yep. So, do we really want to allow first floor residential on Main Street? No. You currently do. You currently do. There's nothing in there that says you can't have residential on the first floor. In fact, you just did it at one. But it requires a special exception. First floor does. We just did it with Jessie. That's why we need special. Okay. So, that's already in there. But so

I'm making more down this so [clears throat] special permit. So if it's a blank, so SP is special permit, right? Yeah, definitely a special permit.

So town gateway special permit. So the mixed use would be allowed if it was I'm looking at some of the a large format medical office building that use would have to come in for a special permit. A large format office business that would have to come in for a special permit. Um these are all large office veterinary hospital a bank a banquet facility. So, we have, you know, some uses that we've said I'm looking at the wrong one, but the use in particular needs a special permit. So, my recommendation, everybody agrees, would be mixed use and general site plan. The commercial needs to get whatever kind of permit site plan special exception that's required. And if they want residential on the first floor, that requires a special permit. But

yeah, residential second floor and above and commercial on the first floor as a say plan. Now, how about if we have an existing building and we're with the exception of the residential on the first floor which require first would require a special permit in the case where you're adding additional units, you're switching things up. You've got six upstairs, you want to go to eight because you're going to make them smaller. Zoning permit. Sure. I would say zoning permit. Yeah. All right. I mean, at some point we're going to be dealing with 508 Main Street, correct? Well, and and see that at some point.

What people are looking for in downtown apartments are changing. So, what we're seeing are a lot of these larger apartments are being broken up into two or sometimes three apartments, right? We want that. So, yeah. Wow. We have parking for that. That's another issue. Well, you don't have any off parking requirements on your on your I mean you have the parking. It's kind of a perception problem because people don't want to have to walk across the street, right? You've got parking. It's a perception problem. It's a safety problem and I think it's a signage problem. We underutilize our town's uh parking that we have. It's not lit. It's not the one enforce it

is the just the usage. All those dead cars out back. Yeah. That drives me crazy. [laughter] [clears throat] I think Will, you've heard me talk about that a few times. All right. So, we'll we'll get some edits there. But I I think that's a great idea. I think site plan for the mixtures makes a lot of sense. And so, here's what we're doing. That's what you want. We're making it easier, right, for what we want and we're making and prohibiting things we don't want like the safe jobs, right? So we have a vision of what we want our main street to be mixed use commercial retail restaurants, you know, studios, offices, that's all allowable.

The things that we don't want are prohibited or special permit like residential first floor. Okay. Now for the one that [clears throat] could be difficult here, lodging.

Yeah. Um, and this, you know, this again internal staff conversations. We didn't talk about this with you last time around. Um, Jeff and I were talking about sort of, you know, boutique hotels. He wanted to make sure that we had something in there that would allow it. You know, a boutique hotel is just a hotel that's smaller, more specialized. We allow it because we allow hotels. So then the the conversation started to turn to well what about a site that wanted to do cabins or you know you see um there's a company out there called I think it's ghetto they installed a place in East Adam they bought an old 4 age camp and they bring in these trailers and it's hugely expensive. I don't think I could ever stay there but some people certainly can. And they bring in these trailers and they park them along the site. We don't have anything that would allow that right now. Right. Like sort of that camp we have outdoor commercial recreation, but I don't think that quite fits the box that we're talking about. Sort of alternative overnight stay accommodations is kind of what we're

like a campground type thing. Like a campground type thing. Yeah. Do we have any interest in somebody coming into the campground? No. No, I don't think we do. So why why did it come up? Why were I was just thinking about it? Something we're always thinking. I you you know you you're you're in a position where something like that would make sense logistically from the standpoint of where you are in the state. You're at the top of Route 8. You're you know right below the Birkers, you know, you're in a in a spot that would make sense for something like that to be attractive. Well, like where cabin rentals, tent platforms, I mean, we have Lone Oak up the road there and there's the other

pines. Yeah, the other one. um like glamping things. You're you're talking about on private property people. No, we'd be talking more commercial. Yeah, I think it would be a campground, but not necessarily a campground with tents, sometimes a campground with cabins, a campground with trailers, tent platforms. Yeah, it could have tent platforms, but when you when I think the best way to visualize would be do we want to allow campground type uses, right? Which requires some level of infrastructure. Yeah, I guess you could have real primitive, but I'm thinking about what they have down on West River Road and uh the state has it. Yeah, state has a cramp ground there. There is a

but that's very primitive. I mean, there's no infrastructure there. No, you'd have to put in septic systems and you know, all the rest of it. So, you're talking about in town, not the Winchester [clears throat] Center. Oh, septic system. No. Yeah. I mean, this is it's the I think the thing that we're sort of envisioning would be more attracted to a larger lot. Yeah. You know, we're not talking about in town. We're talking about Yeah. one of these big hills areas for sale or something. Yeah. Yep. Yep. You know, the the the example that I kind of keep going back to is there was an old 4H camp in East Adam that got bought out by this company. It's called Getaway. I would say take a look at it. And they provide the cabin, right? They I think there's 50 or 60 of these little

They're just little one room. A lot of places, a lot of campgrounds. There's a ton of those, right? And it's, you know, it's it's uh in some ways it functions you go in and you go to your cabin, you have a code to get in and you're on your own in there. So I think that's the type of thing we're thinking about. Speaking of which, we used to have Taylor Brook Campground up there. They've closed it all. You can't even get in there anymore. No. Terrible. So they tore down all the buildings they have.

What we have to be careful of with this [clears throat] is there's two groups out there. One's called tenters, which you can get into agreement with them. They'll come in, they'll put the platform up, they'll put the fancy white tent up, they'll put the things in there. And people have done these tenters things like one or two in their backyards. And there's another one called Hip Camp, which is these both are like the Airbnb of tenting camping world. Hip camp, you don't need You don't need don't provide them anybody. Just give them a spot and maybe a fire ring and that's it. And if it's four-wheel drive, that's great. They drive in there and get to it. So, if we're going to do anything about this alternative lodging, we need to make sure that we either prohibit that in the town for like you know like there's one in Center Great Bington, one street off in center great Bington driving the towns crazy in Berkshire County. how to do with hip camp and tenters.

Yeah. So, I think that sounds like a zoning violation to me and and I don't think that's not what we're talking about. So, but what [clears throat] is Yeah, but what Okay, if it's a zoning violation, but the state of Connecticut, where do they address camping? What do they at what point is it not a campground? But see then also do you do you is the family that's got a tent in the backyard for the kids to go out and sleep out at night if that is only violation? No, I wouldn't say so.

Yeah. So it it's a very tricky subject you have to and it's a lot of people are getting cranky over it and it's something you have to be very careful of. Yeah. I mean, I think [clears throat] I think what we were thinking of is not those sort of oneoff tent sites where somebody's renting off a piece of a land in the back of the yard because again then you get into that sort of that's more of a commercial use, right? You're you're renting a chunk of your property off to one person. But when is it when is it what's different than Airbnb? Well, it's permanent structure. I think that's the difference.

Well, and the enforcement of that is a because you're going to say don't do it and then the person's going to be gone and then on a Friday night they're going to show up again and you're going to say don't do it. So that again is something that would have to be I think would be better enforced as an ordinance where the police can go up and say it's time to go. [clears throat] Because they can go up on a Saturday where zoning officer is not going to and and they have more teeth, right? Yeah. I you know I think we're thinking more sort of the traditional campground, campground, that type of thing. Yeah. But I think, you know, I mean, so right now it couldn't happen anywhere. We have campground regulations.

You have campground rags, right? But I think those are more for pitching a tent, bringing in your RV, that type of thing. I think we are thinking more of like a commercial a commercial operation. You show up in your car and there is a room or a structure of some type that you That's what camp I'm not I'm not getting that being an avid camper for 50 years that that's what it is now. You go into a KOA, you can rent a cabin, you go in and how is it different? Those are campgrounds. Do do KOAs have cabins? Oh, yeah, they do. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So maybe we need to take a look tent sites, cabins, RV places. Your definition

and then take a look at Torington's regulation. We just updated it for Clark Campground. Club Hill Club campground. Okay. So that was that's a recent. Yeah, because that was just built. Yeah. Okay. So I think the last one now is family campgrounds. compounds. Yeah, family compounds. Yes, I have campgrounds on my mind. So, this was something you had brought up.

Yeah, I thought, you know, it's been something that's been pushing around southern Bergkshire County and [clears throat] I was just wondering if there was been anybody in talking about it. I know there's been several families that have called and asked about large pieces of property, whether they could put multiple houses on them up there. Yeah. So, I think it's an interesting idea. Um, I think the I think tying it to family becomes challenging and I sort of talked about that a little bit, right? I mean, this is the same conversation that we had about ADUs. Um, [clears throat]

six brothers, they buy a 50 acre parcel. They all buy build an individual house. One of them says, "Ah, you know what? My wife's family is in Florida. We're moving out. What do you do with that sixth unit? How do you regulate that? It has to stay in the family." So, concept is good. I think it gets difficult. Um, so I threw some examples in there and there's links in that document to um, residential compound regulations and there's a whole bunch of them across the state of Massachusetts commonwealth and those are like the tiny home communities. Yeah, they can be. Although they could also just be regularized houses too, but this would cover that also.

It could. Yeah. And again, the tiny h we can't regulate this. We we cannot have a minimum size for a residential structure. zoning regulations. I mean the state statute say you can't have a minimum size. Building code has some minimums with regard to size of that bedroom and hallway widths and things like that but there's a a provision in statute that um we can't regulate the minimum size of a residential structure. So tiny homes are allowed anyway but yes this would allow multiples not a lot. So, um, this could also help with like an affordable housing situation where you absolutely you don't own the land, but you're buying just a home

and we have that similar. I mean, they're individual lots, but up in Toronto, there's a lot of those. And so, this could be one of those. It could I I think I think there's a lot of opportunities here for sort of different compound like developments. I mean, essentially, [clears throat] you're about multif family developments on a large par. I mean we we have that in Winstead. I mean we have a category in the tax multi houses. Yeah. Yep. Because Winstead has that. You have right, you know, they're they're not allowed anymore, but they were done hundreds of Yeah. So, you know, I would say take a look at some of the examples that we put together there. Those

five are all pretty similar to each other, which you know, once somebody adopts a good rag, everybody else kind of Yeah. takes it. anybody in Connecticut doing it? Not that I found in a quick search. And I have multi code, so I can search general code and get this stuff. Um, they're they're very well could be, but I I just did a multiode. So, take a look at those. See if any of those look interesting and dig.

But, you know, we can do soilbased density. Um, town of Columbia, I think I referenced theirs too. They recently And theirs is a little bit broader because they talk about multif family housing. So could be multiple units. It could also just be big units that allow you know multiple tenants. Um they just adopted this rig that's basically soil based. So if you can prove that the septic allows it. That's what density limit. [clears throat] So just things to take a look at. Okay. So, item B is discussion of possible updates to subdivision regulations.

I think we already did. Yeah, that was the last one. That was just the fire. Just the fire. That's all I see. No, [clears throat] I don't think there's any I've looked through it in the past and I haven't seen it. I mean, it's always well other than the system. And then number seven, other business. Anybody got any? Okay. Approval of minutes. I move that we approve the October 27th, 2025 regular meeting. I'll second it. All in favor? I abstain. Any communications? Nothing from you. Who wants to do it?

I'll make a motion we adjourn. Second. All in favor thanks everybody. Very good. Mhm. We were getting done by 8:30. This was one of our You put a time frame on this. Yeah. Very efficient. We did it.