Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

All right. Now, I'll call this meeting your order. We will begin with the pledge. Stand. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, liberty and justice for all. Uh um I'm okay. I'm good here. I've been having trouble hearing you guys from over here.

Got it. Um uh introduction of commissioners. Um we will we will start over here and when we get to Mr. Erands, we'll let him talk a little longer so we can learn a little bit about him. Jean Keer, Cindy, Dave Wallace, I'm the chair. Hunt, secretary,

and Chris Ford that Evans, welcome and thank you for uh um uh agreeing to to serve. Can you um tell us a little bit about yourself um and a little bit about why you had an interest in in the planning commission? I am a uh Dutch immigrant. I served in the Marine Corps in Vietnam. Have a uh electrical engineering degree from Lawrence Technical University in Southfield. And uh I've been I've owned a property in Onka for about 30 years. Seems like a long time ago. Spent a lot of time in Soulberg's Marina on the boat. That's how I keep your life through fishing. I have a wife, Pam, one daughter. Fishing is what brought me to Manaste County and I love this area. Some beautiful Lake Michigan is one of the most beautiful spots, especially Port Lake where you have a entry to Lake Michigan from Port Lake. So, It's uh I owned a business for 25 years in Leavonia, Michigan and then later on in Auburn Hills had about a maximum employees I had was 120 employees made the China trade sort of made my job not fun anymore and everything was sent over to China and I dealt I did most of my business with the automotive companies. So I decided to retire early and stay up here.

Any questions? Any commissioners have any? Well, um how much do you know about, you know, a master plan, what it does, uh and then how many arranged the zone. I know when I first moved to Onaca, I had a I got involved in the road ends, you know, first, second, third street. So, I I I know quite a bit about that. The master plan I don't learn a lot about, but you can catch up.

Yeah, it is it is online. Um, so it's just basically a blueprint for in the future of the township. Um, and then zoning is one way to implement the recommendations that come out of that plan. Oh, gotcha. Um, I know the township does have a budget for training. Um, that, um, you could participate in either in person or remotely. Um, the Michigan Association of Planning website is a great resource too, you know, just to catch up. I think there's probably several here that have probably done a master citizen planner program which is which is a really good program. Say all five of us, right? Yeah.

A few of us twice. That was last last fall, wasn't it? Um, yeah, there are there are good trainings, MAP, uh, Michigan Township Township Association, uh, MSU Extension. Um, we have a lot of good resources and like Chris said, uh, summer in person. Usually they do them um, in regionally. uh you so you don't have to think about having to travel to Lancing for a week. Uh and uh and then and now the online courses have really kind of taken a

lot really help you know because a lot of the not some of the decisions that this commission makes affects people's lives you know so it's probably important to you know understand the the process and then what goes behind making you know fundamentals kind of why why do you All right, I will look into it. Okay.

Um approval amendments of the agenda. Um um we basically um in speaking with the clerk, we took off item number one, which was um the um introduction of respective members because the township went ahead and and appointed the members. So uh Oh, so he's already he he's he's sworn in. He's he's an honorary musketeer. I wasn't wasn't um we just found out. Well, then yeah, I think uh I suspect they wanted to not have to wait another month, you know.

True. Uh and it the timing is kind of tricky. Um so we have uh we're going to talk a little bit about the master plan and and the dark sky ordinance proposal and and then be added. you want? Yeah, I just wanted to add a brief review of 1018. We'll put that guest house. Put that under new new business. Um the guest house rules and regulations. Is there anything else? Motion to approve the agenda.

So move as amended support. All in favor say I. Hi onward. Um uh we have the June 2025 minutes. Are there any additions or corrections? Is there a motion to approve those minutes? So moved. Second. All in favor say I. I. I'm sorry. Who seconded that? I did.

Oh, thank you. Excuse me. Um, public comment. Yeah, public comment. So, Dave Leon's also going to be Dave Leon will be the other planning commissioner. He had an obligation tonight that family first. I always say my whole family's here and that's why I'm here. Just reminding you this is being recorded. Yes, I know.

My daughter isn't allowed to look at YouTube. Is there any other public comment? No.

Okay, we will move on. Um the township master plan which was adopted in 2023. Um and I guess that's kind of a quick background for you, Ted. Um, the township master plan, uh, like Chris said, it's a it's a guide for land use in the future. Uh, it's generally a five to sevenyear plan. Um, we collect a lot of u geographical data on the town on on township,

demographics of the population. um housing statistics, um kind of an inventory of what we have to work with and uh and we look at some of the challenges that we face uh here in the township. Um and then we get down to um uh looking to the future and and what are issues that we feel um the township should look to address uh and in a relatively timely manner in the next say 3 to 5 years uh or less. And uh some of the issues that we identified in our master plan were a um a multi-use trail for the use of of the residents to um and that's something that is being worked on right now by the parks and rec committee. Um we talked about affordable housing. Um recognizing that as a um as a primarily a resort seasonal community, housing is not necessarily within reach for uh the person that works at the at at the Esmart next door. and we we dearly, you know, love their service. And the people at the hardware store who who help us fix our problems, you know, but um they're not necessarily in a position to run out and and buy a lakefront home. U and even the homes that aren't on the lakefront kind of get pulled along by their proximity to the lake. Um, so what options do we have to

kind of promote? Uh, you know, we're not in the land development business, but we can perhaps tailor our our ordinances to be attractive to developers uh, and make it so that their path to to building is is not just hurdle after hurdle. Um, and anybody help me with another goal we had in our master business downtown? [Music] The business downtown is

except it's that's the village. I printed out I printed out uh well there's 10 tenants of smart growth initiative are in here that talks about um high level stuff you know creating the range the reason we kind of wanted to bring this up to make sure we were in line with the the Michigan legislature passed a law saying that the master plan needs to address affordable affordable housing housing attainable housing.

Attainable like um with a lot of the short-term rentals, the housing is for long-term rental is is diminishing. So, we wanted to ensure that we were addressing that because that was a change in that fall. So, that as well is kind of why we wanted to put it on [Music] agenda. I mean, and there's other things that the township zone you can reduce lot sizes, reduce square footage requirements for

Yeah, I was just reading about for the carriage house. We already did do that. That was one of the things on here that we wanted to potentially do allow for that density.

Yeah. Um I'm I'm looking at the action plan now. It's on page 68. So Ted, I'm also on the village planning commission and we're also going through a master plan update right now for the village and a draft of it has been submitted. It is on the village's website if anybody wants to take a look at it. But looking at these tasks compared to what has been put in the draft, the trail system, the downtown development authority, housing uh and quality of life in terms of blight are all in.

Um so the township um you know felt that you know creating a downtown development authority or or business improvement district or a quarter of improvement authority was important even though it's in the village and not in the township. Um, and the the DDA has been talked about in the village since the day when I got here. Um, I invited our MEDC representative to come and talk to, you know, village representatives probably at least two years ago. uh and and everything that the state has in their toolbox, you know, that could help. But, you know, not a lot of interest and I think the only people that were there were just a few of us climate which is unfortunate but anyway uh there is an interest uh in the village to do a DPA. Uh it's a matter of you know educating them on how it works and how it needs to be created. But is there some sort of a partnership that can be that can be put together between the village and the township since the township obviously believes it's important

because it's master plan. It's a master plan. So I mean maybe that maybe that could be explored. Um, you know, I think it be it'll be hopefully at the August meeting that the village council will then authorize distribution of the plan pursuant to the Michigan Planning Enabling Act. It's got to be out for public comment for 63 days as you probably know and then it comes back for formal adoption. U but so that's a little bit down the road. So that might be one, you know, that'd be a great collaborate on. Yes.

That uh you know, we could work on um and then if you're talking to um you know, the village leaders, if you run across them and you start talking about you know, the village and and then you know, maybe kind of talk about, hey, you know, are you guys seriously considering you know, creating the DDA? And then maybe I haven't I haven't looked but you know could that DDA extend into the township and then maybe there's an interlocal agreement you know between the two units uh you know something like that. Uh you know I'm thinking and it probably wouldn't happen you know maybe not right away because you because once the meeting is created and and adopted then we start capturing tax dollars. But what's the long-term plan for the fairgrounds? you know, so I know there's there's some passion behind the fairgrounds, but it's in in the village or the township's master plan is planned for mixed use. Uh, you know, so you know, just food for thought. Uh, but I think I think this would be a great system. The consultant that's doing the diligent master plan has had mountains of experience of doing DDAS. Um, and they'll do them as, um, Connie, um, I can't remember how they termed it, but they'll just do individual tax capture, uh, on certain pro, uh, individual projects. Um, and then, you know, use that money just to

that. Yep. Um, so and I think that would be a great a great way to, you know, roll out the welcome act to, you know, the businesses if that's what the village wants. So anyway, um, Ted, probably in in the time you've been here, um, I mean, you saw what happened with the sewer project. Yes.

Um, there was there was, I think, a need for it. Um um there was a lot of work put into it and then there was a lot of push back not necessarily completely un unjustified uh because uh it was it was a humongous chunk of money. Um uh but as I used to say to people um if the if the health department comes along and puts up signs on on every piece of property around the lake that says uh it is unsafe to go into this water and have human contact. What is your property worth? Many years ago, Mike Axton, he did the the fish. I have one of the fish I bought, you know, for for the quality water quality for the waterershed. For water shed. Yeah. By the way, and are there regular reports that come out on that every year or how often they check the water quality?

There is um um well, the township has a has a it's part of invasive species. We check water quality a couple times a year. Yeah. Um I know I see reports when they spray, you know, they'll put a thing in the mailbox. Was it you that got that report last last year? Well, the the uh district 10. Yeah. does uh water sampling on on the some of the creeks that flow in

Shiny Creek and and uh Easy Street has one and they and they're looking uh and they publish levels of E.coli coli and they look like uh I'll say eight times a summer. Um and uh I think it was last year or the year before there were two creeks that were just off the charts. It was last year. It was last year.

That's true. I should add some of them to the conversation because I I actually communicated with Matt Fornier, Department District Health Department of 10. he was responsible for the testing and and I actually suggested to him some places like you really ought to be checking here and here like on Andy's Point next to the hotel. So I think they took some of that into account but one fact that came out of his reports is they used a technique called quantitative PCR and they determined that the EC coli was mostly not of human origin. Right. And that's but and and uh which is good news. Uh

but Matt was down Matt was down at Easy Street and I stopped and talked to him and got his business card and and uh and at that time he said uh well we don't we don't know if it's animal or or or human. Um, we we thought it was coming from Heathlyn's Golf Course, but Heathlyn's Golf Course is closed up, and I don't know if the ducks and the geese still um live there. And uh but everybody said, "Well, we don't have the we don't have the facilities to test for for human ecoli." Well, it seems to me if you get a number like that, you better find out. Um they yeah they had collaborated with F State University I think just in that one year but I mean that might be something the township would want us to make sure we know what we're looking at.

So maybe we want to fund that study with Fair State. Doesn't seem like we should have to. Yeah. I think and I think last year of state's machine was broken.

Yeah. Okay. So anyway, um so we're I think we're moving on on action items on the master plan. [Music] But you know with the with the 100,000 plus grant was was awarded that's a big deal

and they're sec you're working on more funding as we speak um and um and the there's a program out there from the state of Michigan uh tap grants transportation alternative programs and they're really designed designed for for communities that want to like put in a bike trail or a jogging path or something like that. And and uh um I from listening to MDOT, they're they're really excited about what we're we're trying to do and they're ready to help us in any way they can. Uh and uh you know I I hear some push back about about well it's taxpayer dollars shouldn't be spending that in taxpayer dollars. I I read an article many years ago by 25 30 years ago where township and the village was in the Wall Street Journal they were trying to combine

and failed how difficult it was to do something like that. Mhm. an article in a paper and what's the long-term outlook for it? I mean, what what do people want to do? Do you want to keep the sleepy village or they want to develop it or Well, you ask 10 people, you probably get 10 different answers. That's probably I think that's probably true. But if you if you if you're interested um you know the village did a survey

and um as part of the the plan update and we got a pretty good response rate um and then so you know a lot of those survey responses you know they all tabulated and they're all a lot of those have made it into action items. Um and trail system was as far as recreational is the number one U requested item. Of course, you know, you know, some people that are taking the survey don't live outside of the but the consultant was able to kind of narrow it down to a best estimate uh response that came right from the village uh people that live in the village. Uh but the Evan trail system was rated up really high and it's also rated really high in the township and you know based on what people want. It's a fine use of taxpayer dollars. You're not going to get everybody to agree on that but you certainly have the majority of people agreeing that it's would be you know money well spent. And if if the taxpayer dollars don't go into Onaca, then the new bike trail is going to be in Ada, Michigan or in Dexter and and that's not going to help the people of ONCA at all. Um because MDOT has they have a they have a list of communities that that you know would like to fund projects similar to to this. We're fortunate that we're towards the top of the list. So since the trail system is is a a use an amenity that both the village and and the town should want and I know early on in the whole discussion about doing this trail is like oh no there's we're not there not going to be any local tax dollars going to it but if it's

something that's highly desired why couldn't it be a request for you know a half a mill or 3/4 of a you know and put it on that and and that would be you know you know quite a ways down the road you know depending upon how how successful um you know the township may be on acquiring those grants but I don't for the people who live in this area we would just support you know a half a million threequarters of the mills would just have to pay for the medical care facility you know I personally I would support it Well, so you've lived here a long time. You've seen the number of people who are walking along M22 for their morning walks and and uh we haven't had any incidents, but it was it's not something I'd want to do with my grandchildren uh unless I had a leash. My previous life, I worked for the city of Porters down by Kazoo. We built miles of these trails and they were widely popular. People love them. They increase property values because people just get right on on the trail.

You know, Grand Rapids has these trails between Kent Trails, Millennium Trails. People love them. Somebody here go up and use Betsy Valley River Trail because that's the closest one. Yeah. And so we ride from Frankfurt three times this year. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're just they they were going to pave another mile out coming outside of fuel towards Thompsonville. They did. Did they already do that? Not very far though.

We started riding towards Thompsonville last year. You probably five miles down the stone. Three to five miles down. Okay. We had we had road bikes and it was just So S, did you hear anything from the township of Oh, what's happening with the master plan items? The trail you mean? Well, or any any any of them.

Well, the I mean the trail is the one that's probably the most problem right now. And I know that there was a meeting July 24th.

Um Matt Kefir reported last night he was pretty hopeful about progress being made. the um it's not really part of the master plan per se, but the other big uh elephant in the room for the planning commission is the B point. It's been a sewer system. Well, it's it's how how can we um um encourage facilitate their becoming the viable entity that that the community wants. They just don't quite know what it's going to take to achieve it. And uh um

yeah, the sewer is the bank. suffer and a lot of a lot of Mr. Gazan's plan was based on the municipal sewer system which isn't. So now he has to look for alternatives which was not in his original master plan. Anything else on the master plan?

So, do we we do feel that that we've adequate adequately addressed housing? No. Oh, and that would be probably uh the next thing. And I don't know if we want to do we do we talk to developer developers and say, you know, what would it take for for you to be encouraged to develop in in the township? Uh

well, I think first you have to identify property that's available for somebody to develop. Um I mean to have to engage a developer when you don't even have a proposal site is a little difficult to even I mean something in here is promoting rehabilitation of existing units as well. I mean, there's things in here that Well, the township doesn't have that many existing units that are multif family ready waiting for waiting for renovation

renovation and and during rehab that aren't being tied by u another prospective seasonal resident. Well, Dave and I did a followup to the one meeting we had and trying to identify parcels within the village and that was and I think the ones that we came with was just really was the county piece over at the corn and l and I mean that probably would be the best location because I'm hopeful that if it ever came to fruition it could connect to the to the village's sewer system there. say, "Yeah, or they'd have to build their own, but then it would be reaching out to the county, seeing whether or not they would participate in how they would participate in." And then really the go-to person is Tracea Gates. She she's kind of kind of the expert when it comes to affordable attainable housing. So, we had some good conversations with it on that. [Music] But yeah, I mean developers will will probably need some sort of financial assistance to fill the gap. You know, somebody wants to to reach out maybe to Jeff D. I don't know who the go-to person might be. you know, if there's any interest in kind of starting that dialogue with him. I send you you probably have better idea than I use given your previous talk to.

Yeah, worked with John before. [Music] I mean, I've seen property would be ideal, but Okay. Oh, okay. Um, so I I guess the next thing we maybe need to develop a a plan on is is the affordable housing goal and what we can put together. whether it be talking to the county or or seeing what sort of agricultural properties we have on the fringes that might be suitable and uh I know I don't want to get into the development business. So, all right. Um, moving on. Yeah, you brought up

Yeah. 1018. Yes. Um, give give us a little background. So,

when we had our training, um, it came up that we aren't necessarily the or the body that that says who can stay in a home. we are more, you know, setbacks and heights and all that. And I um recalled this ordinance that we uh added about guest houses and second dwellings on the same parcel as the primary. And we have something in here that states that um occupancy shall be limited to adult members of the extended family of the owner of the principal dwelling. And I was wondering if we could confirm if that's legal or not or if that should be deleted about the adult member. But

the family part I think has to do with homestead. You know, it's not a business. It's so you've got your family staying in this unit, but Right. You're not renting. Well, and or renting, right?

Yeah. And I think our intent was that what that type of a dwelling is a is a um something for your parent to move into when they can't be living by themselves down state. And so we'll put them in this mother-in-law cottage. Um, and so so I can reach back out to Mary again and see if she has any uh advice start with or

that's probably one of the questions this township attorney whether or not you know a local unit can can regulate. I mentioned this to her. She said that it was likely illegal at the time. So yeah,

if you let me just comment because the principal residence exemption is something I unfortunately know a lot about. Uh the 14-day limitation is not it's no longer in Michigan law. That's been like overturned multiple times at court of appeals cases. So you know an attorney would find those cases. There was one was Wrenchler v. Melrose Township was one of the first cases that basically put that 14-day limit. It's just it's just not in the statute as it's written. It was something that the tax tribunal made up on its own in their administrative rules.

So, as far as homestead, you can't you can't take away someone homestead. The key thing in the principal residence exemption, you obviously have to own it. You have to live there. Um, but the key thing is intent to return to it. So, it's not like you can't be away from it. And the period the court's not addressed like how long you can live somewhere else as long as you intend to to return, but uh it's it's more than 14 days. I mean, people have been gone for the better part of the year. And the tax assession will say, "Well, you're no longer a resident." And they people with money go, they're not talking about being gone for 14 days. They're talking about renting it to non-family members for more than 14 years.

Yeah. And that that's also people have rented much longer than that. I mean, it's it's the because I mean, the state wants the money. So the administrative rules were written so the state could you know collect the 18 bills but as these cases went to court you know the courts just said no this this is not there are limits if you don't occupy at least 50% of the residents then I guess it's considered that part of it isn't P eligible I get a little complicated but it's I think it's it's something worth reviewing with the attorney to save.

No, that's that the second item under me. So, so it sounds like the language may have come from the thought process of the commission about like an in-law apartment. And so that's why maybe it was put in there. Absolutely. So it's almost like you're trying to prescribe a use for it. And I I think what Mary was trying to say at least in the classes is we don't necessarily prescribe uses for it. It's either um an acceptable situation or it's not. Well um

seems that it's worth sending it to career. Yeah. And and I um I think I know that downstate only the chair contacted the attorney otherwise you know we'd have planning commissioners sure calling and when he answers his phone the meter starts running. Um so um if if you would like to um put together a a kind of a a concise question.

Sure. U referencing 1018 and and and where he we can send that to him and ask him to review it um for his appropriateness. Yeah. Great.

All right. again and just you know reading through the through the ordinance um you know it has to be and you don't have to answer this just kind of some of my thoughts I mean one of the thoughts that came on my mind is why aren't these allowed to be attached to the principal unit um this minimum square footage is the same square footage as as the main the principal house you know the principal house the min so then then the ADUs also has to be 800 a minimal 800 square f feet and typically ad used in the goal there would be to do something maybe a little smaller u you know could be in the 5 to 600 you know square foot range um

wouldn't that just be expanding the primary dwelling room yeah you could I mean there was a there was a situation where someone was building wanted to build a separate dwelling on the property so I think that's But but if I wanted if I wanted to if I wanted on on my house if I wanted to attack

um you know let's say let's say my house is you know 2,000 ft for simplicity purposes another 600 square foot area that had its own uh you know separate entrance and then you know kitchen bath facilities living bedroom all right there I I wouldn't be able to attach it to the house and especially especially if you're living it at the proposal was just to limit it to family members. Um, you know, you might want to have it to attach it.

You the ordinance doesn't allow it to be attached, but the but again the law currently does. I mean, the old administrative rules absolutely what you said. If you got the thing has a separate entrance, it's like a it's not part of your house. But with respect to the principal residence exemption, I mean, multiple cases, I have a guess. That's why I had to look into this. Uh, just because it's detached, it's still part of my principal residence as long as I occupy some at some point in the year. So, so you're saying that you would not be able to to attach a duplex kind of situation is what you're saying you would want to do?

Yeah. I mean, if you wanted to attach it, you wouldn't be able to attach it the way the ordinance is written here because it says it has to be separate. And there was a minimum setback distance between But is it a second dwelling attached? But I'm not sure.

Well, no, it would be. Yeah. I mean, it would be a separate dwelling, but it would be attached, but it would fall under the whatever the requirements are for for an ADU. um you know like you know a granny flat uh you know it may or may not have an interior corridor connection between the principal and the the accessory dwelling unit. Uh but I mean I mean as we age you know I mean it just to me you know reading that thought well if it's for a family member you know I would think I would want it perhaps connected to the main unit but be a separate a separate unit by itself. Any those were those are just some some thoughts that that yeah that I as I was reading I was kind of going kind of rolling through my mind but that could be discussion for another time

or it could be part of this question. Well yeah I'm wondering

that would just be importance in all right well thank you and We had a request um from a citizen um to um look into um dark sky uh ordinances. I I don't know if you're the idea is that uh you know you're people come up here because they want to look at the stars, but if you go over by the casino that front sign they've got so bright that you can't see anything in the sky. Um and uh and so to require that lighting design be such that uh lights are pointed downward. Um uh there are uh some standards that say uh u outdoor lighting must be uh 3500K rather than 5,000. Um and uh it's um it's mostly I guess for the birds, not to help the birds, not for the birds. Um and u the village Joe has adopted a dark sky ordinance in their um book and and we asked Chris if he would share that with us and perhaps we could use that as a template for the township u because we are just um you're just crossing the street to be in the township or the village and you'd like some consens consistency in the ordinances. So,

have you had any push back from from adopting the ordinance or No, because I don't think it's been utilized by anybody yet. But when we were when we were putting together the ordinance language, we we you know, we didn't want it to be so restrictive. I mean, because this I mean, this isn't a a Charlotte warrior or a Harbor Springs by any means. So, we wanted to keep it somewhat flexible, but not and not overly restrictive. Um, and really until you have a development project, right, come in on Main Street,

you know, you won't. But, I mean, this is all I think most business owners, I think, do this um, you know, with a sharp cut off anyway. That's pretty much industry standard. Um, and they're all sharp cut, building mounted, um, parking lot mounted, uh, you know, light poles. Um, you know, I, you know, when we were doing this, I walked down Main Street probably about midnight. I don't know, it was before midnight because Easy Mart was still open. And I have an app on my phone, you know, as a light meter.

Um, and we were we were reading the foot candles. Um, an easy mark, you know, actually was, believe it or not, if you if you if you held the meter out along the sidewalk near where we estimated the property line was and they complied with what we put into put into the ordinance. Uh, so you have to when you when you when you're measuring the foot candles, I mean, when you look directly at the light, it's going to look bright, but when you kind of look away and then try and measure the illumination that's coming and hitting the ground, it's it's it's it's different. Um, so we thought it was, you know, wouldn't be fairly um, you know, easy for for developers to do it because like I said, they're mostly just kind of industry standard these days. Um but yeah, since we haven't used it, you know, we don't know um you know, if there's any, you know, part of the ordinance that would give somebody heartburn, but we thought it was pretty pretty straightforward, you know. And then and then communities require u a photometric plan, you know, when they draw the the book handle contours to show where how the illumination is and how we're going to uh you know, comply with the requirements. And and we decided that um that a parking lot that could be greater than than 20 off street spaces would have to provide a photometric plan. That's how we came up with the 7,500 square f feet because then we we estimated, you know, the number of parking spaces that maneuvering lane kind of came up with what that would be for a 20 car parking lot. Um I think so so that the submitt requirements I mean they're not, you know, overly restrictive. Anytime anybody buys light fixtures, they always

come with a specification sheet, you know, to show what the what the uh the illumination is going to be, uh we put in some requirements for u you know, adjacent to residential areas. Um let's see, we put in there. You can convene. So the maximum height of a parking lot fixtures is 12 ft except they can go up to 20 ft when they're no closer than 100 ft to a residential um you know there's some you know turn off turn on you know basically 11:00

except for um you know security purposes and then the and then we put went over a number of exceptions um you know like sports and field courts uh that are no no use than 10:00 you know swimming pools you know holiday decorations you know window displays that are without glare shielded pedestrian walkway lighting we exempted single family and two family residential lighting uh obviously public street lights um you know then there's a lot of carriage lights around you know where the the the the dollar house,

you know, they have carriage lights out there. So, they they were below a certain wattage, we we we exempted them. Uh but that doesn't mean that if you have a major problem earlier because you know I remember dealing with two residential home, same family residential homeowners that were at war with each other and one just would just take his his this his two things flood light and check directly at their house,

you know, so that the zoning administrator would still be able to take enforcement action on that if you know ran across something like that. But and I did make the changes um about uh you know you have to construct gas stations because it's just canopy structure canopy structure is defined in the definitions online. So like I said we thought it was pretty straightforward and I don't know there really isn't much commercial property in the township just kind of like along over here on Their residential is exempt, right? It's really commercial.

Yeah. I mean, that's where you get into the heavy hitters is commercial the commercial lighting. Does does the fairgrounds fall under our zone? There's a question for I would say I would say yes. Don't know why why it was it was owned and operated by the township. Township could exempt themselves. But since it's Yeah, I don't see why they wouldn't eat. I mean, churches aren't except the schools aren't either. No, schools are.

No, they're not. Oh, yes, they are. I beg to differ.

I beg to differ. I beg to differ because I I went I went to the mat on that one down state. Now uh schools are um in their design are under the opices of the fire marshal who defines ingress and egress of the building and the and the facility. But we had a we had a brand new school in our community that was next to a subdivision and the subdivision had a vacant lot within within it that just hadn't sold. The school said, "Hey, we could buy that lot. We put a driveway in there. Then our buses could circulate." Well, from that perspective, I I would agree with you because the local units control access to public streets, right? I mean in in my tenure we built two brand new high schools, elementary schools and it was always told to us that the state superintendent has sole jurisdiction over the construction of public schools. Uh but there were some things like you mentioned that we could control. One it was our water and our sanitary sewer system. I was our roads. Uh so yeah, then they had to comply with that and uh but when it came when it came to zoning, you know, they wanted to work with us and and we worked with them because these were, you know, 100 one mill was 119 million.

Our township trustees were just cowering in fear because they knew the school was the most powerful entity in the in the township. No, that was deli, right? Delhigh. Delhigh. Okay. Yeah. And I just went to the township attorney and got an opinion. Yeah. Soon after that, I was off the planning commission. Oh, yeah. I dare I dared to question the all powerful oz.

Yeah. Oh, no. I know. I I I hear you because we had similar conversations because there's there's there's certain things that that we were concerned about on where they were going to position these buildings on site and one of them was they wanted to put the back of the the back of the high school facing a major public street. We didn't want that, you know, because, you know, we So, we we worked with them to, you know, they they didn't cave entirely, but we worked with them to dress it up. Yeah. you know. So, but anyway,

so um how does the commission feel about setting this to a public hearing and uh getting public to comment on it if they wish to and um seeing if we can add it to our book of ordinances. Yeah, I think it would be good to see if there's support. Mary Riley had sent four items and one of them was is there broad support. Um, one the other was is there a capacity for enforcement of the ordinance and then is it's a zoning amendment, right? It would be so everything would be non-conforming would be grandfather.

And are there now you said you had a request to develop the ordinance? I mean, is there are there is there problem or problem areas out there that we there's concern about? No. That maybe we we need to kind of tweak this to address. No, it was uh uh it was a concern uh from just an individual who is concerned about dark skies. Okay. And would like to see it be a statewide ordinance. Yeah. I mean I mean it's it's always good to be proactive because we could have you know you know a use come in here then

I mean if I look at the township the first chance I see for us to have to worry about enforcing this ordinance would be Shayes and that's not going to happen real quick. No problem. Well the brightest spot on the lake is going to be the end. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, in the fairgrounds when they're doing the demolition derby. Yeah.

Okay. So, um I think we would want to probably send this to Tom and have him look at it and just say we'd like to set this to public hearing. Do you have any issues with that? and and um get word back from him and then set it to public hearing and go forward. That's your attorney. Yeah, m Mr. Ger. Okay. Right. Yeah. I just want to provide your revised. I did. You did? Yeah. Well, I think I copied every

Yeah. I mean, I can send I can send it to you. Yeah, I'll check if there was a while back. So, no, it was last week. Got it. Actually, yeah, it was it was the it was it was last week Thursday because I sent it after the after last Thursday's meeting. [Music] All right.

Can I ask a question? Of course. Is there a purpose when this one person asks for something like that or

Well, um, any resident has the has the right uh to come before any of the township boards and commissions uh to say, I'm I I have a great concern about this uh and would you be willing to do something about it? um you know some things uh the township can't address uh for because it's not within their u realm of scope of authority. Sometimes it's things that they know aren't within their budget uh to address.

But is there a if it's only one person, do we address everything that one person and send it to an attorney? Do we do it that we might not agree with something that somebody asks but it is in our master plan to develop I believe dark sky lighting. So this is and you actually brought it to us. I hadn't heard of it there was

yeah but to address what Ted's saying I mean if if if resident brings up an issue we will go ahead and discuss it. It doesn't mean that it's going to go anywhere. we may say, you know, we don't agree with that. We're not going to change an ordinance, we're not going to do whatever, but trying to be responsive to residents. Um, so I guess the only thing I'm saying because it sounded like your question was kind of posed like you think we're doing it just because this resident brought it up and it wasn't that that was the catalyst.

It's more or less a question. If one resident asks for to fix a particular problem, do we send it to an attorney?

No, we would discuss it first. So, but if we have a if we have a a draft of an ordinance that we would like to bring to the public, we're going to ask the attorney first. Um, is this an ordinance that you feel you can is defensible or or are we stepping into a hole um by by adopting asking the the township board to adopt this and and uh and he says I you know I have I have no way to to defend this in court. there there's there's this and then we have to go back to the drawing board and say okay is it better now and if he just keeps saying no then probably we're going to say well we don't seem we don't know how to draft an ordinance that'll work uh but this is I think a this is not a major change but it's still we have to go through the process And we currently do not have a lighting.

Yeah, we make reference in our in our u zoning ordinance to uh lighting shall be shall not be uh disturbing to neighbors or or or streets or something like that, but it's very vague. Yeah. As an example, I my American flag at night, I light it up. Mhm. And sometimes my neighbor asked me to turn it off when they have a party next to I don't think we touch that one. So, you know, we're not going to regulate.

But you might but you might have to. I mean, if if it's if it's in the zoning ordinance and now the neighbor I'm not saying your neighbor, but hypothetically a neighbor complains that's a violation. So maybe you want an exemption for like some you know patriotic I don't know. I'm just Can I Can I ask just a process because I don't I don't So the purpose of the public hearing would be to get input and then you would make a decision. Is it is the public hearing necessary for a zoning amendment? Is that Yes. Okay. So that hearing you're talking about would be that necessary step for a zoning amendment. And we

because I you know I come to these meetings. I mean, here's the opportunity for the public to, you know, express their opinion on yay, nay, maybe some on this uh dark skies ordinance. So, I mean, here we are and and you've been to enough of these meetings that you know that Yeah. But it's if if it's if it's one of the the hot buttons in this township, we'll fill the room. But but my qu the question is has a draft of this ordinance been like on the website because I because I don't I'm kind of like well I haven't seen it. We haven't decided to do it. We that's what we're doing right now is making that decision. Is that something we want to move forward

and then like put it have the attorney review it and if it's okay makes sense then put it on the so put it on the website and have a public hearing on it. And we might not do the public hearing until um September just just to give just to give the attorney enough time to review it and to get it on the website. And then still after our public hearing, we're going to make a recommendation to the township board to adopt ordinance number such and such, the dark sky ordinance. So by hopefully by that point enough people will know about it that if they don't like it the board will hear about it. That's fair.

But we're not actually going to call it dark sky. No we'll we'll find that it's a good show but veil of darkness

but there's different ways people can ask for an ordinance amendment. So the the township board can initiate, the planning commission can initiate or uh a resident can fill out an application, pay the review fee, uh and then the planning commission and the township board are then obligated to act on it. It may not get approved, but that way a resident or business owner can get before the planning commission and the township board, right? And you really then there's no way for like the planning commission to say no, we're not going to do it. And I mean just you have then it has to go through the process.

A developer perhaps could come to us and say I want to I want to build a small development and um and I only want to put up um my building. I've got this piece of property and for for this to be economically feasible for me, I need to build on on 6,000 square foot lots and our uh ordinance calls for 15,000. Uh and maybe, you know, that's a situation where, you know, he's building affordable housing on smaller lots and and he wants us to look at that. But we have to take into account that if we if we change uh the yellow area there, maybe his development is in the yellow area there and we change it to allow 6,000 square foot lots that now applies to the entire yellow area,

right? So it's not just his piece of property. So or like there's an action item in the master plan to develop to go through with plan development to cluster zone which would allow the smaller one. So someone could come in with a overall plan development even if it's in that yellow area. It only applies just to that area unit. Right. Yeah.

So um it's a process and it's um It's not quick. So, um, with that, I don't really have any other business. So, do we have any further public comments? Just real quick, sure. Nobody jumped on.

Is there anybody? Nobody on. Comments from commissioners again. Welcome, Ted. And give yourself a little time and this will all begin to make sense. Uh because I I don't know that um I mean I did this before so I have some idea of what went on. Chris used to do it for a living, but I think most of are just citizens who are interested in in the orderly development of our community in that category and that's that's a good start. time. You know, I used to do training programs for our planning commissioners that I still have,

you know, there's one on roles and responsibilities. There's one on site plan review, there's one on capital improvement program, there's one on storm water management, [Music] well, with no other business before us, we are adjourned at 12 after 8. I was just gonna ask you for that. Did you say that um everything you've been working on? send me.