Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

good afternoon again and welcome to the uh January 27 Planning Commission and the city council my name is Cena nard and I have the honor of chairing the Planning Commission uh if you would please call the role chairman NAD here commissioner batty present commissioner Jabar absent commissioner jabia absent commissioner Javed is absent commissioner Linton is absent commissioner mon is absent commissioner noola here commissioner Sagar here alternate commissioner sell here thank you thank you ma'am uh for the members of the commission the uh minutes of the last meeting of December 16th was distributor to all uh I would entertain the motion to approve and or hear any proposed modification or changes Mr chair I move for approval we have a motion to approve on a second any discussion all in favor say I I and in opposition the eyes have it thank you we're going to get started with pz20 24345 please good afternoon good afternoon Tabitha ha good of fits and Shipman on behalf of property owner Mark fatita is seeking approval of a replat of tusy Park Phase 1 and two which include all of the common area and all of lots 1 two and three lying within the Hezekiah Williams Senior League survey into Lots 1A 2A 3A and 4A Tuscany Park Bowmont Jefferson County Texas the intent is of the replat is to create four lots and to reflect the new development on the property and also to

document a recorded access easement throughout the commercial center um our ordinances state that Frontage along an easement is allowable for commercial lots that are within a planned commercial center where the easement is permanently accessible to the public and designed and constructed and construction of the access improvements are approved by the Planning Commission the propos proposed plat meets the city's minimum subdivision requirements as such staff recommends approval of the request with the following condition shall adhere to the utility easement requirements of CenterPoint Energy to Lots 1 a 2A and 3A staff sent out 29 property owner notices we receive two in favor and zero in opposition on the screen the area outlined in red is under review this is an aerial image of Tuscany Park and this is the plat so you can see the darker uh green is that access um um easement that's going to be platted um all of that area is improved um at this point um and staff does recommend approval I believe that we have the uh engineer of record uh present thank you ma'am any questions for the lady is the applicant here nope okay okay that's right the applicant is not here so we're going to open the floor to public hearing is there anybody in the audience that would like to speak for or against this case no one's volunteering so we have heard from the staff and uh there is one condition uh on the regarding the utility easement with that I would entertain the motion Mr chair I see that the minimum conditions have been met

therefore move for approval with condition number one we have a motion to approve is there a second second motion and a second any discussion all in favor say I I any in opposition eyes have it thank you uh we're going to go to pz20 24355 Zach Row of Levens engineering and design requests approval of a preliminary plat for Aurora's States Bowmont Jefferson County Texas the 142 acre development consists of 13 new residential lots and is located within the residential single family zoning District Water and Sewer utilities will be provided by replacement and extension of the city's facilities additionally Mr row is seeking approval of two waivers the developer requests approval of a waiver to extend the maximum culdesac length from 800 to 1,000 ft Timber Ridge Lane currently serves three Residential Properties the proposed culdesac will add an additional three lots serving a total of six properties and it will enhance the Dead End Street to provide adequate emergency service a access the second waiver request is to allow the extension of Timber Ridge Lane to be constructed of asphalt Timber Ridge Lane is an existing asphalt road our City's current standards require New Roads to be constructed with pavement I'm sorry concrete pavement the applicant requests approval of this waiver to complete the culdesac using asphalt to maintain consistency staff recommends approval of the request with the two waivers with the following conditions number one construction plans must meet all requirements by water utilities for water and sanitary sewer Services number two shall comply with the 2021 international fire code by adding hydrants to the new 6inch water line at 500 foot intervals along Timber Ridge Lane number three all development shall

comply with the flood damage prevention ordinance and number four shall clearly label the responsible party for maintenance of the drainage easements on the final plat to be recorded on the screen the area outlined in red is under review aerial image and this is the plat we do have um I know for a fact this time we do have the uh engineer of record um present for this case great thank you any questions for the lady Mr row now how do you know was you row and not the other row you like the other Mr row no no no you're better looking go ahead Zach with Levens engineering design 3250 East Tex freeway uh I don't have anything really to add other than I would like to clarify the existing rideway of timberidge Lane is already approximately 900 feet long we're going to only dedicate additional rideway for the culdesac bulb and extend the pavement approximately 200 fet is that agreeable with you so is that extending it to 1100 feet approximately in total no it's still it's 1,000 ft total the pavement extension is about 200 feet so the reason we're saying a th000 ft is because Timber Ridge from I believe that is tram at the very bottom of that page or this might be a better image at tram going up Timber Ridge where how it exists um is approximately 800 ft and to accommodate for that culdesac is an extra 200 feet so the measurement of that culdesac goes from the intersection of um tram Road and timberbridge if that makes sense for it to be an overall

1,000 ft so it needs to be maximum 1,000 ft overall should be or does it if you're saying it's 900 ft which my measurement said revealed it to be about 800 but if it's I was just trying to clarify the rideway is only being extended for the C toac bulb the pavement currently stops short of the existing rideway so the the total distance will be 1,000 ft okay at the end all right perfect any other information yes sir and do you agree with the four uh uh requirements that the city has yes sir no objection okay thank you any questions for the gentlemen thank you Mr Ro you great folks uh we heard from the applicant and also the staff and we clear the length of the the pavement and they're all going to go with asphalt to uh match the existing with that I would look for a motion I make a motion to approve with the conditions we have a motion to approve with the four conditions is there a second is that with the waivers as well or without the two waivers is that with the two waivers or without W with two waivers yes yes so we have a motion with two waivers is there a second a second we have a motion and a second any discussion all in favor say I I any in opposition the eyes have it thank you thank you very much folks uh uh at this time I would ask the honorable Mayor West to get us started on the uh joint meeting with the city council please welcome Mayor West pres mayor potim Neil present council member Duo absent council member felshaw pres

council member gats council member Samuel here council member Turner is absent thank you thank you you very much sir we're going to get started with pz 2024 373 please good afternoon commission and Council Mr alberon at of sdb development requests approval of a specific use permit to allow a duplex within the residential single family zoning District located at 5450 Concord Road in July of 2024 the pro property was issued a stop work order when an inspection revealed repairs occurred without a permit it was also revealed the two-story residence was converted into four dwelling units if approved this request will allow the property owner to reduce the number of dwelling units from four to two which would bring the property into compliance with the city's zoning regulations staff recommends approval of the request with the following conditions number one shall obtain all necessary permits and complete all required City inspections number two no permanent structures or apperance shall be placed within the easement property and number three construction plans shall comply with all applicable Fire and Building Code requirements uh staff sent 17 property owner notices we received zero in favor and two in

opposition opposition stating multif family in a single family is unacceptable because noise garbage [Music] containers it's a matter of sa safety parking disabled vehicles and no front or backyard the area in red on the screen is the area under review the site plan this is the subject property properties to the north to the east south and West and I believe we have the contractor present any questions so Mr alberan is the owner not the contractor right I believe he's the contractor all right is he the contractor that started the work so I think that there was a bit of history on this one so going back to the subject property there may have been construction that happened be prior to this contractor however repairs still happened with this contractor without the benefit of a permit same for prior to whoever that was um that owned that property um it came to our um it came to our uh attention um that this happened whenever we were doing a city inspection um that they didn't have the proper permitting and then also it was noticed that there were four dwelling units instead of a maximum of two with a specific use permit um what could be there by right is a single family home um so that's where they're coming they're trying to come into compliance with our zoning regulations by reducing

the number of units from four which exist right now um 2 two all right we'll hear from him uh so the applicant is the who's the contractor good afternoon sir would you state your name and address for the record please my name is Elan uh um so I am the contractor on there so uh like she said before we address have your address please uh 3370 beer Street bont Texas okay go ahead uh so there was work done prior to me uh coming in there and also prior to the owners uh they bought the proper prop y or they got the property back and some work was done there but um we were there cleaning the property out the city came by I went by and pulled all the proper permits after that there wasn't any work done without any permits and you know so at least from my standpoint and I talk to some of the inspectors we can you know we can verify that uh all we're trying to do is just get it back to where the new owners can you know rent the property out and if I don't know if there's pictures from before how bad this property was before we completely improved especially on the outside and that's what that's what my company did with did the outside work uh we we did um all the siding the roof the the painting things like that we haven't done any work on the inside that work was done uh prior to me coming in um as of now we're just trying to get it to

where it's uh leasable and you know obviously we will take care of any problems any permit issues or anything like that so like I said what what is your scope of work so my scope of work was the siding the roof um everything you see on this picture that's basically what I did uh the painting on outside so you did this with a permit yes yes I have the inspections as well no interior work I I didn't do that was prior to me coming in yes there there is interior work be uh was done there I don't know who did it um pretty much I pull the permit to do all the outside work I do have the um copies of the uh permit and the inspection that was done on the outside also Windstorm certificates that were pulled uh that were done by the engineer so I I like to think that I did everything I was supposed to do on that I think what happened was that it was this the it wasn't a four plat and I wasn't aware of that that wasn't part of my scope to do that did we verify that this work was done under their permit or do you know yeah so we went out there for an inspection so I have to imagine that some building permit was pulled and then at that point we had we noticed that this was turned into a four or this was turned in from a single family home into four units at some point um but really this this case is more so for him to come into compliance with the zoning regulations and then also there's those um there's those conditions where should any other necessary permits that you have not pulled those also need to be pulled and that'll be um that'll be fleshed out with the building official all right right tell me how you going to

make this into two units versus four so the if you see the small unit and uh I guess would be to your on this side over here to my right that is um basically that's a storage at the moment nobody's living there nothing's been done inside that unit so we can just close that off or get it away from everything else there's a small unit in the back it's just a one one little room and and it has a bathroom in it we can just close that off and we'll have the two doors right there in the front um one underneath the patio and then one to the right of the patio um one is that one goes to a Stairway that goes upstairs and then we have the one down um and that's how we're going to do that I don't think that's going to work uh I'd like to see a drawing of some sort because what you're explaining I'm not sure how you going to provide safe uh egress from this house God forbid there's a fire I'm not sure how you guys plan on doing that and I don't think this should be some kind of a Mickey Mouse I'm going to do this and that uh don't you think we should have some kind of drawing that they're going to take this fourplex into a duplex I think what's before y'all is the consideration of increasing the well decreasing the density technically but increasing the density from a in the residential single family home District you can have a single family home this is increasing the dis the density to two which is the maximum that they can have in this zoning District I think that's the case that's before you guys for turning or remodeling the four units down to two units that that's going to be through the permitting um which is a condition of of this case that's going to be through the permitting process having to

go through the building official to make sure review those plans make sure that the engineer has has done everything that they need to do to sign off on that make sure that the Energy Efficiency is there all those kinds of things but I think what what's before you guys to consider is um a a increase in density technically um and that that way they can come into compliance with First Step zoning regulations Second Step will be those conditions of the building permits yeah and so we don't have a drawing with no need for a drawing until you'll approve the part so that was that's why come we haven't had the chance to do that so uh counselor we we have a forx right now and the zoning says you can only have single we want to approve a duplex not worrying about that there's a fourplex and that has to be converted into a two duplex right right so essentially you are to imagine that that was an empty lot yeah and that all the bad things that happened prior to don't exist and do you want a duplex there are you are you in agreement with adding a duplex there yeah the the only the difficulty is is making it into the form of four to a two anyway but but okay I so as a planning manager said basically the building if the building official in the city engineer um if they present plans they obviously have to be approved through that process so if the plans as he's presented them doesn't work and they market up and do different um that might be something that goes before um a different one but okay your job is do you want to duplex all right thank you very much all right so any questions for the gentlemen thank you sir thank you we now opened a uh meeting to uh public uh opinions is

there anybody in the audience that would like to speak for or against this case good afternoon ma'am good afternoon to everyone uh thank you for allowing me this time as a neighbor absolutely if you be kind enough to state your name and address for the record and we love to hear sir my name is Francis Bowman my address is 5415 Concord Road bont Texas zip is 77708 great I am here about the subject property that you are seeing on the wide screen beautiful place it shouldn't be there I live across the street on an acre and a quarter with with a one family home that I've enjoyed for 24 going on 2 years I'm a native of Bowmont that home was built for a single family I have been in that home there was an elderly lady her husband was the ex Fire Department chief so she lived alone there with her son the downstairs was merely for a workshop to build cabinets there was only one door if you will notice on the

property which was subject to my coming down here and voicing my opinion concerning the so-called fourplex duplex whatever I sat there and watched the contractors come in they was bustling and a tusting and and going about their business there are four individual mailboxes so if you've got four individual mailboxes already assigned to that house what does that tell you the apartment had two occupants in it and more were coming I've not been in that house but one of the occupants told me that there are four apartments in there and they are completed first of all anytime I believe because of my adaptation to laws rules that must be followed if you do not follow rules what happens you have to pay a price thank you noise in complexes they shouldn't be in residential

areas as far as being on the RightWay I have witnessed the family before this was altered this house was altered children playing on a four in the front of their house with four lanes two going two coming back I was frightened they park on the grass which does not look good in a residential subdivision the next thing I looked at was the danger of having this type of building in my community we all well I've been a landlord and when you have property where people don't know each other do you think they're going to like each other no the fire hazard that that is to my residential property across the street would be imminent to put my house on fire so Commissioners my request is you do not Grant this particular home in that Community I am a taxpayer and I have a home and I want my home in my community safe thank you sir sir I'm 80 years old I'm a little bit hard of hearing I see you said the house was was completed inside my house

yes yes it is completed you know that's for a fact two and attendant that left they know okay thank you ma'am yeah my name is Jonathan Finch I live right across the street 5525 Concord okay I'm concerned about the electrical they uh if they I was told that they're not going to put four units it's going to be reduced down to two units but right now I have problems I'm sharing a Transformer with that that particular unit and right now I'm having problems already with when the air conditioner comes on my lights go dim so you put two more units in there with eating cooking uh a air conditioning you know we're going to put a but if you can you know control that and as far as uh those units are done those are inside and out so someone did the work on the inside and they bootlegged a lot of that in there and as of uh 3 weeks ago there was someone living in that little storage place that he he said it was is a storage unit and um also uh does that building have a COO to it no how's people living in it right now that's the issue why we're here they're having to come back and and retroactively get their building permits get their how do you have people living in there if you don't have a c certificate of occup they shouldn't

be that's all I have thank you is so I will be more than happy to show this units to y'all so you so you understand that that unit is not finished on the right there was a person living there he wouldn't move out so we had to Adit them um on that section but that's what a story is if there is one unit like I said is not completed there's three units that are completed so I do understand what they're saying uh all we can do is uh follow the follow the rules that set forth uh we are going to pull the right permits we are going to check the electrical again I'm coming in after the fact to some of this uh to a lot of this and so what what my job is to do I got hire is to get the right permits get the right situation uh taken care of if there's Transformers issue obviously we can handle that with energy maybe separate the Transformers um the lady that lives across the street from us um I don't know how it affects her other than she doesn't want to look at it um I I believe we made it into a way better uh uh place and it was before um also I do think that um this benefits the city because

obviously the taxes will go up and all the things like that and there is an apartment complex but about two blocks down from there so that's been there for years and years and years so and there was a commercial building right next door there was a hair place so you know there there there's no complaints about that so I just all I can do is tell you that we are going to fix it the way we're told to fix it and I will follow this with the city inspectors because that's what my job is to make sure that they that we have all the and we do have the electrical we have the plumbing we have the hbac permits and we also have the uh building permits at this point and again we they have to stop work and um you know there's nothing I can do right now until I get those uh until I get this situation um until I get this a specific use permit done and then I can move forward on fixing what I need to fix so that's all I can say but I I appreciate your concerns though thank you all right move for approval with the uh three conditions we have I'd like to ask a

question to Mrs Bowman I mean the two individuals that actually are in position what would it take for this particular building to you know to be housed there I mean what do you expect the individual what would you like the individual to do tear it down I post right here please you hear me yes come up to I don't know whether the engineers can pull my house up on the screen at this time at 5415 cornard Road yes sir yes sir I believe it's right around here um I am so sorry and I love people and I love to see progress the area that he's talking about that is empty the reason they can't Bild on it because there was a business business there cars in and out in and out and it burned I know a lot of people here may not know who the Jones Brothers were in bont the home or the house or apartment complex could he just pick it up find another lot and then go with the city where there is where there are multi- duplex pick it up we're residential single family I live by myself

well what I was what I was I guess uh referring to was um the fact that what if this guy turned it into a single family residential structure instead of what it is right now that's what we're looking I don't know what the square footage is at this point but perhaps would that satisfy y'all if it was thate structure nice per y get together and and discuss this and and and you know everybody wins fantastic single family all right let's let's go and go for another round of vote I I will look for a motion to approve or deny this make a motion to approve three conditions all right is there a second so it fails again is is there a motion to uh T table it well table is not going to we need to give him a direction uh is there a motion to turn this into a single single occupancy home yes I'll make a motion to return to a single family home is there a second a Ste real real quick the so the the item is to uh to consider a duplex we need to deny it first right in order to uh follow open meetings okay uh we I asked for a motion to to uh approve and uh there was a motion for approval it it it got cancelled due to no second so is there a motion to deny

it you have to deny it to do something else so somebody I make a motion to deny it all right we have a motion to deny is there a second a second all right we have a motion to to deny and a second is there any discussion all in favor say I and in opposition no okay one no so now really we we we we don't have the authority to suggest to do anything else other than denying it so he can come back for it with an application to make it into a single right no well if it denied he can have a single family home by right in that zoning District right okay but I want to make sure there is one entrance and one exit right I don't want to have four doors to a single family house on as long as it meets building codes for a single family home that's what we can go by um we'll have to double check with the building official on how many exits thank you very much uh Mr Mayor I'm sorry that we have to try your patience but we have something else on the agenda here before we let you go let's see other business impact fee 101 presentation who's doing that yes sir I'd like to introduce Mr Grady Reid of HDR uh to present the impact fee 101 presentation uh Mr Reed has been giving or guiding City staff through the process and possibility of implementing impact fees Mr Reed good afternoon good afternoon if you would please state your name and address and your position uh my name is Grady Reid I'm a senior project manager for HDR engineering I'm out of the Austin office um my address is 3470 FM FM 1185 and lockheart and you're representing the

firm uh yes sir we we were just our our firm has been engaged by the city to explore uh impact fees okay so um this is this is going to be a very similar presentation to what uh we provided to council um I believe last month so uh council members here I'm going to try not to bore you again with the same information and maybe provide a few couple of couple of other insights uh but we did want to bring this uh to y'all the the Planning Commission because if this moves forward uh it is likely that this body in a different name uh would be impr would be involved as we go through the impact fee process so you can go ahead and go to the first slide so I'm just going to kind of start up front with what is an impact fee for those that that don't know um and and you can see the definition up here it's it's a one-time payment uh it is levied on new typically or expanded development and the idea is that um as development occurs new development occurs whether that's residential or commercial or or in the city's case for Bowman Industrial Development um there is infrastructure that has to be uh built to to serve that to serve that new development whether it's new water lines new sewer lines new lift stations new new water storage facilities all those types of things um so impact fees came about uh they've been around for for several decades at this point um so they they came around to help cities mitigate that cost of development uh basically against the the existing rate payers so whenever a city is is building this infrastructure that's related to growth uh the city if we take aside grants and and those types

of funding sources and we just look at City provided funding there's basically two pots of money that the city can pull from to pay for those that infrastructure one is is rate Revenue um and the other would be impact fee Revenue if the city does have impact fees um so again these these came about um to help especially in these in these fast growing cities uh that you know that was occurring in in the 80s and and early 90s um to to kind of limit the impact to exist residents and rate payers that have been there forever because the question and rightly so is kind of arising is hey we've lived here 50 years why are we having to pay all this money through our utility rates to fund infrastructure for growth um with all of that said impact fees um are not a perfect Panacea for this and sometimes impact fees are sold on the idea well if we enact impact fees then growth is 100% going to pay for it self and and that's just not the case that's just not the way that it works in the real world um unfortunately there's a lot of timing issues um impact fees if the city were to go forward um impact fees are typically assessed at time of plat um so anything that has already been platted you know prior to this process being finally approved by Council uh those properties would not be affected it would just be anything that plats after that effective date of this ordinance should should this go through um and they're typically not collected until the time that the building permit is issued um so there's a lag there in some cases that lag could be years depending upon how quickly that that uh that development occurs and those homes or or whatever is going to be built there is actually built however the city uh has to upfront those costs you know

you have to extend the lines you have to build you know build this infrastructure and so they're not uh so there's there's timing issues there in most cases what's really happening is the money is going out the door for the city to build this infrastructure and then you're kind of if you want to think about it reimbursing yourself um as the city collects impact fees if you have them um again this this this would not apply to to any any growth any anything that's already on the ground any any infrastructures any any uh development that's already here um in most in in most cases the only time that it would would be if someone were to redevelop their property for example and let's say they had a 3/4 inch water meter um and with this Redevelopment they wanted they needed to upssize that meter to to a 2in meter um in that case the city could Levy the differential impact fee uh between a a 5 in in meter or 3/4 in meter and a 2 in meter but for the most part I want to just be very clear that if this goes forward it it would 95% of the time or even higher would only would only apply to new development um this does not apply to existing existing residents you go ahead and go to the next slide so this is just the the definition of of what an impact fee is um and again we'll we have some slides coming up um but this is really just related to New Growth and infrastructure related to growth so and when we get to the slides I'll talk about what you can and cannot use this uh this this money for and going go to the next slide could I interrupt you for one second sure you said it's for new uh but changing the water meter from uh 3/4 to a 1 in uh would remodeling come under the same criteria if somebody wants to remodel

their house uh yes if if if they need if they want to upsize their meter um it it could be so the way that the way that impact fees are levied um you come up with with basically a separate water and a separate Wastewater impact fee and those are levied based on what's called an Lue or a living unit equivalent uh we Define an Lue as whatever the standard meter size is so let's say for the city that's a 5/8 in meter um so the 5/8 in meter would be 1 loue um if I constructed something a commercial business for example and I needed a two in meter um according to the American Waterworks Association you can put about I believe it's eight times the amount of water through a 2in meter as you can through a 5H in meter so a 2in meter would be eight l so then whatever these impact fees are let's say they're combined $5,000 for both water and waste water just making up numbers um then that commercial development would pay eight times $5,000 if that makes sense um so whatever that whatever that Gap is between um let's say you know if they had 3/4 inch meter and a 1 inch meter that may be two oues or or whatever that number is so the city could Levy that that differential on them does that answer your question no the question was is remodeling of a place constitute having to pay the impact fee it it could yes that's that okay thank you um you can go ahead and go to the next next slide so um I've talked a little bit about some of this so whenever we go through this process we would develop a separate water impact fee based upon the

the capital Improvement plan for for water uh and a separate Wastewater impact fee based upon the capital Improvement plan for Wastewater now within that within those separate impact fees um all that this slide is kind of representing is that we do try to go through a process where we build those impact fees uh and different component pieces so for example on on water we'll look at a transmission ground and elevated storage pumping treatment and Supply um and if we have the data available from the city to do that and the only reason that we do that as part of chapter 395 there is one sentence in there that basically says that if a developer were to go out and construct an item on your Capital Improvement list that you use to develop this impact fee then that developers do a credit um so just so you're aware so this is this is the way that we do that chapter 395 said does not give any direction on how that credit is supposed to be determined uh so we just kind of build these in component pieces as a way to start uh with where that credit would would could be determined if for example they went out and built a transmission line um instead of the city go and go to the next slide um so kind of the process that we go through this um again this is this is really outlined in chapter 395 this isn't something that necessarily that's that's unique to to our firm every firm that would be doing this would be kind of going through and doing this the same the same way um the first thing that we do is we Define that impact fee service area so typically that would be um for example example the city's etj you can Levy impact fees beyond the city limits you can Levy them out into the out into the etj uh as long as water and wastewater service is is provided um you don't have to um in

other cases we have limited it to the the impact fee area to the to the water service area and Wastewater service service areas defined by CCN and some cases we've done a little bit of hybrid of both but that would be the first step is just working with City staff on okay looking out 10 years where do we think that we may provide water or Wastewater service and then that becomes our planning area if you will uh for all of our data that we are developing as part of this impact fee process um the first bit of data that we do need is we have to do a land use plan um I'll be perfectly honest and say that we don't really use the land use plan in any way for the impact fee um but but the way that chapter 395 was in first envisioned is that you would do a land use plan you would determine a use water use and Wastewater use per acre based on that land use plan current land use and then anticipated land use in 10 years and you would build your water and wastewater demands off off that land use plan um we actually build water and wastewater demands off of existing Water and Wastewater connections and use because that's just most it's much more reliable um than using land use data but we do have to do a land use plan and so we will look at current land uses and then what we anticipate land use to be in 10 years within how are we're going to Define this impact fee boundary um next we do go through that process of of estimating your water and waste water utility demands we do have a lot of this data already um and we would forecast those demands uh 10 years into the future we then compare that to your existing capacity for both water and waste water again for each each one of those component pieces so that just kind of tells us where there are deficits within the system um again this is something that we have to do according to chapter 395 um and then once we have that we kind of get into the the heart of the

impact fee development which is identifying a a capital Improvement plan for water and wastewater looking out 10 years um it is important to note that impact fees uh or or for this CIP we are only looking at projects related to growth um those are the only projects that we can roll into the impact fee so we cannot include Rehabilitation projects um those types of projects it has to be new projects that are there to serve New Growth um the other part of an impact fee that you can do if we have data is you can take existing assets things that have already been constructed um if they have excess capacity and we have cost data for them uh which I'm going to be honest and say sometimes that's hard to get is cost data for existing assets especially things that have been built 20 or 30 years ago uh but if we can't get that data um we can roll the cost of existing assets that have excess capacity into the impact fee as well sometimes we do that sometimes we don't um it just kind of depends on what the individual City wants to do and and data that we have you can go go to the next slide um once we have this uh this Capital cost uh what we do through and we'll be working with the city engineering staff to develop that CIP um we then say okay we're going to we're going to construct a lot of this a lot of these assets we know that we need these over 10 years due to growth but typically whenever you build something you're not just building it for the for the demand 10 years from now you're building it for the demand for you know 20 or 30 years from now and so working with City engineering staff what we would do is for each one of these projects that we would that we've identified both Water and Wastewater we

would determine okay at the end of this 10-year period what is the percent utilization of that project um so maybe we build a project for that's going to cost a million dollars and we think well at the end of 10 years we're really only going to be utilizing 50% of that project capacity whatever it happens to be um so then we can only take % of that project cost and roll that into the impact fee uh so once we've done that and you know we've done that for every project we add up all that cost we then the math at that point becomes pretty simple we just take that cost and we would divide it by the growth and lues projected out over the 10-year period um what that number is that is the weighted cost of existing and new capacity per living unit equivalent or if we're really not rolling existing capacity in then it's just the way to cost the capacity for this new development that we plan to to build over the 10 years once we get to that point um you basically have two options within the impact fee process um we want to make sure that we are not double charging New Growth um so again as as people connect to the system if you have impact fees they would they would pay an impact fee and then they're also going to start paying utility rates once they connect to the utility system so the idea here is that we never want to double charge uh customers twice for the same assets um so chapter 395 says that you have one of two options you can either just take this weighted cost of new capacity per per Lue and you can cut that in half um so you you take your your whatever your impact fees would be could be um and you you cut that in half um or you can go through this alternative process which is to look at

that growth make some other assumptions about how much of these projects we think these new customers are going to pay through their utility rates and then we can we can create a rate credit um so from that point we then take that weighted capacity cost per Lue and again we either take that in half we either cut that in half or in most cases we would do the rate credit option because that's going to produce a higher potential impact fee for the city um and then that equals the Maximum Impact fee per Lue that can be U assessed if you will um again we'll we'll we'll kind of get into what where y'all would come into play and and what all this means uh but that's that's kind of our ending number is that Maximum Impact fee per OU go and go to the next slide so items that we can pay uh through the fee so again this is projects just related to growth um so we cannot take impact fee money and we can't use that to pay for onm costs associated with running the water and wastewater utility we can't use it for reconstruction of existing uh infrastructure we can't use it for maintenance of that infrastructure it can only be used to pay for new infrastructure related to growth so with that infrastructure you can use this these proceeds to pay for construction surveying and engineering financing cost and and also you know obviously engineering and construction cost um if the city were to move forward and go through this process and ultimately adopt impact fees once that impact fee Revenue comes in the city is required by chapter 395 to hold those impact fees in a completely separate fund um aside from that's not part of the onm fund so they have to be accounted for separately again just to make sure that we're only spending those funds that we're not

comingling funds so that we're making sure that we're only spending those impact fee funds on impact fee eligible items you go and go to the next slide so things that are not payable by the fee um Capital Improvement projects that are not identified in this in the in the impact fee CIP again operations maintenance cost improvements associated with existing deficiencies this is kind of a I don't know if this would be an issue for Bowmont um but you cannot use use impact fee proceeds to bring existing infrastructure back up to its original capacity so for example you had a water treatment plant that you had maybe not maintained over the years and and you really couldn't utilize the full capacity of that plant um you cannot use impact fee money to go and rebuild those parts of the plant that you need to rebuild to bring it back up to its existing capacity um you can Al also not use impact fee proceeds to pay for projects that are related to to uh new directives either from the state or from or from from federal agencies so for example letting copper rule if you need to go and and pull outled service lines and replace those um you cannot use impact fee money to to do that that has to be born by the city um you cannot you can use you can use impact fee proceeds you can whenever you bring in this Revenue again it's going to go into a separate fund um you can either save that money up and say you know you have a a project that's going to cost $2 million somewhere down the road so you can bank that money let that fund build up over time and then whenever that you need to pay for that project you can pay cash for it or you can also take impact fee proceeds into that fund and then you can use impact fee proceeds to pay debt service on projects that are related to growth um

but you cannot use it to pay debt service on non-impact fee projects and just so everyone is also clear is that school districts are exempt um unless they agree to it via contract which honestly that's never going to occur um you go to the next next slide um so before I kind of get into the advisory committee I guess can we go back one more slide so kind of sticking on this on the school districts are exempt um I just want to kind of let yall know some questions that we've already been asked by by Council or staff and one of the questions that I'm always asked is well can we exempt certain properties from from this fee um or certain types of development uh from this fee and the answer is is yes but um you can exempt um some cities have tried to exempt either in part or in whole impact fees from certain areas of the city if they have a preferred gross zone for example um or try to exempt again in part or and whole uh certain developments from impa fees if it's you know lowcost housing or or something like that um so that can be done and again we're I'm we're getting way ahead of ourselves but I just kind of want to give you all some background information in case you start getting asked questions uh whenever I leave here um how we would typically handle that though is we would not codify that and whatever ordinance the city is going to use to enact these impact fees and simply because I'm not a lawyer but it is very hard within an ordinance to codify exactly the type of property that you want to give an exemption to or credit to um and it also becomes much harder to go back and and take that back out of that ordinance later on if

Council changes their minds on who they want to exempt from this fee um so the way that have typically handled that in the past is the ordinance which simply just State Council um not the not the capital Improvement advisory committee but Council has the discretion to wave in whole or in part impact fees on a caseby casee basis um tied to that though is anytime you exempt someone from the fee then you are basically in essence defeating the purpose of having the fee to begin with um so that's Revenue that you're not collecting from Impact fees if you have them so that difference then has to be made up through utility rates um so in order to overcome that what we would typically recommend is that if you would it would also be included in your ordinance that if Council chooses to wave in part or in whole impact fees for certain developments or certain areas of the city um that the city still has to pay into the impact fee fund whatever the amount of the impact fees that were waved and typically that has to be paid for out of the general fund and not water and wastewater Revenue because again that defeats the purpose of impact fees if you're just going to make the right payers pay for what you're waving um the other question that I typically get asked about impact fees is does this deter growth um and some people will say yes typically those on the development side will say well yes you know impact fees that's increase the cost of homes and so that's going to deter growth especially if your neighbors don't have impact fees maybe we're going to want to develop in these other communities and not these communities have impact fees um I will tell you in my experience I've been doing this for 25 years at this point um I have never seen impact fees deter growth in a community um some of the

areas that have the highest impact fees in the state um also are those areas that are growing the fastest um I like to use a city new bronze for example if youall are familiar with new bronze it's located on I35 it's in between Austin and s in San Antonio um new bronwell has a combined water and waste water impact fee that is greater than $25,000 per oue it's one of the highest if not the highest uh in the state um new bronz also happens to be one of the fastest growing communities in the state and that that area in general and again I don't want to I don't want y'all to say oh he's going to our impact fees are going to be $25,000 they're not um I'm just kind of using that as an example is that we see um what really drives growth within a within a community is things like the quality of the schools other amenities that that Community has to offer um whenever you look at impact fees getting tacked on to the cost of a a home for example um if impact fees are $55,000 or $4,000 or $6,000 and you take that money and you you know mortgage that out over 30 years um it's really it's it's just not a factor in in uh in homeowner purchases um it it can be in certain situations for for homes that are selling uh you know inexpensive homes that may be you know selling for $100,000 but um in typical communities where homes are selling for $200,000 or $500,000 homes imp fact fees is just what we have seen as they're not a deterrent uh to growth both on the residential side and on the commercial side all right I'm sorry I went on and on about that but I just want kind of wanted to let you all hear my opinion on things because those are the types of questions that you're going to be uh going to be asked so the advisory committee and really why I'm here

today um is that to go through this process the city would have to create what's called a capital Improvement advisory Comm committee or a seak uh normally the cak is the Planning and Zoning commission um you as the planning and planning committee Planning Commission for the city meet all of the requirements which is basically that at least there's one person on the pnz commission that represents real estate development or the building industry that is not an employee of a political subdivision or other governmental entity um we did talk a little bit about uh if this fee is levied into the etj and right now it would be in places um so what council would do at their next Council meetings should this go forward is they would appoint this committee as the c um and then they would add a member who resides within the etj so whenever this committee met as the CIA that other member who lives within the etj would then join y'all uh for those meetings you going go to the next slide so what does the advisory committee have to do um first you serve as the name suggests in an advisory capacity only and I want to be very clear about that um council is the decision makers when it comes to impact fees um the cic does serve as in in this advisory capacity um you work through through the process of developing these impact fees with us um you look at the land use assumptions that we are making you review the capital Improvement plan and make sure that that appears to be reasonable um this committee is supposed to Monitor and evaluate the implementation of that Capital

Improvement plan and then file semiannual reports to council with respect to the progress of that plan and how these funds or are being spent um the C this committee can also recommend to council um when they think an impact fee update is needed once the City Impact uh adopts impact fees by State Statute those fees have to be updated at least every 5 years um you can update them sooner you can update them every year if you wanted to um you shouldn't do that but you could if you wanted to um but at a minimum they have to be updated every five years or the city through this committee has to make a finding that there's no need to update the impact vies you go and go to the next slide so again if this moves forward um and Council uh establishes a c um the charge to that committee we we will go through this process of of impact fees with them uh we will prepare a water and wastewater impact fee report that report will be presented to the committee um and the committee will adopt that report uh when they adopt that report the committee is basically make a finding that the land use basis for the CIP appears to be reasonable that the CIP has been reasonably defined that the Maximum Impact fees have been reasonably calculated and that the resultant Maximum Impact fee is going to be whatever it is that it is going to be um I used the term reasonably several times there and that's because obviously at this point I I don't know what y'all's backgrounds are maybe some of y'all are are land use planning experts um I have had water and waste Winer Engineers on my uh cic committees before but that's

that's not the norm and so sometimes when we're presenting uh you know these these engineering these engineering projects to you and and cost and things like that um unless you're an engineer that sometimes that can be hard to understand stand and so the idea is that we would do the we will always do the best that we can to make sure that we are educating you as much as we can myself and City staff um who who again who we're going to be relying on for the the the land use data and the CIP so that we can educate y'all as much as as much as we possibly can and have all of your questions answered so that if this moves forward when you approve the report that you feel reasonably that we have that we we have done things in a in a reasonable manner um other things can be included in the report um to city council again just because you as the CIA if this moves forward adopts this report that doesn't mean that that now all of a sudden the city has impact fees um it just means that you've adopted the report and that report is now going to go to council for their consideration uh within that report sometimes uh this committee will want to include recommendations in their report such as hey we've gone through this process and we recommend that Council approve this the Maximum Impact fee that this report says that we can do um Council will have the option of adopting if they adopt impact fees so we'll have this Maximum Impact fee per oue number that we've determined Council can adopt an effective impact fee that's anywhere from zero which sounds strange but at times that has happened where they've said okay we want to have impact fees but we're going to set those at at zero for some period of time um up to whatever that Maximum Impact fee is that is contained in the report but Council

cannot set an impact fee that is higher than that fee um so this committee as when they adopt this report they can include recommendations in that in that report that we recommend that Council adopt the maximum fee or we recommend that Council adopt 50% of the maximum fee what we've also seen is that uh committees will recommend that Council adopt the uh review the impact fee in three years instead of five years especially in communities that we're working with that are seeing uh really rapid rapid growth or that their CIP is just kind of constantly changing um year to year you go ahead and go to the next slide so how all this would kind of work out from all the different steps that are involved is again we would work with this advisory committee to adopt the impact fee report um you and make recommendations to council if if the committee so chooses um since the city currently does not have impact fees it is a two public hearing process to adopt impact fees so once the committee approves this report and we send that report to council and it is available to the public for review city council then sets a public hearing date uh the first public hearing is just for the land use and the capital Improvement plan that public hearing notice has to go out 30 days prior to having that that public hearing um city council will then conduct that public hearing on the land use and capital Improvement plan and then basically approve the land use and capital Improvement plan that same night um you can go ahead and go to the next slide and then from there uh Council would set a second public hearing public hearing date again provide 30 days notice uh for that public hearing on the actual impact fee adoption uh and then Council will

conduct a public hearing on the impact fee itself uh once Council has conducted that second public hearing on impact fee adoption they can either take action that same night or they can wait and take action at a later time uh but they must take action within 30 days um so if if they were to take action then then they would they would take action and that ordinance would have an effective date uh for for for impact fees to go into effect which would then apply to any pro any property that is platted after that date so the next steps moving forward um is if Council so chooses then they will appoint or create this Capital Improvements advisory committee which would likely be this committee uh with added representation as needed primarily just a member from the etj um our firm has has already started working with staff uh a gather and refin data related primarily to the CIP uh number of connections that are already on the ground and growth and those sorts of things uh we would continue that work um we would then present this data likely and and smaller chunks to this committee uh to the CIA um the land use and and capital Improvement plan for for comment and feedback the draft impact V report would be created and then presented to this committee as well for approval and then you can go to the next and then from that point that's that's when the committee's essentially done with with this process and then it it goes to council um so I know that was a lot of information on what's impact fees are what they're not uh in the process but if you have any additional questions I'd

be more than happy to answer those um in process of doing this you had to study the prior years growth in the city right that is correct uh looking at the let's say last five years growth what do you anticipate the typical fee would be if if the same growth happens um I I'm I'm hesitant to give you like a a number because we haven't got into those numbers um just in my conversations with staff looking at at what we think the CIP is is going to be um and growth over the next 10 years I don't anticipate a an AB what I would call an abnormally High Water and Wastewater impact fee coming out of this study um again these these impact fees are are not new um they've been around for for a while there are other cities in this area that that have impact fees um galvaston Alvin um I believe Port Arthur may have them um the typical fee in this area uh Texas city has impact fees the typical fee what we kind of see in this area for cities that are similar in size to bont would range I would say anywhere from 3 ,000 per Lue combined water and waste water up to $77,000 so Lue for a house is how many uh one every a single family residential is typically going to be one Lue so if there's an office with uh 20 people in it and have uh let's say eight devices urinals and toilets what would the Lue

be um it would it would depend on their meter size um um but it would likely be it could be 1 and a half to to two and uh Lue for a typical small office complex so 3,000 per permit for an office building uh yes it would be $3,000 per water meter they're they're based on water meter size any other questions yes I have a question what uh how many cities other than the cities that you've mentioned have implemented or of similar size to ours have implemented such an impact fee um I would say mo most large cities in Texas have have impact fees at this point um even cities such as Amarillo and lck um abalene St Angelo and I I just I point out those especially especially Amarillo and LC because the Panhandle area of Texas itself is is not growing in fact it's it's depopulating um except for Amarillo and and leic which are seeing growth um so I would say most cities the size of Bowmont and Texas regardless of where they're located geographically um do have impact fees in place um many smaller communities um also have impact fees but again there we there it tends to be based on where they're located geographically uh cities in the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex typically have impact fees those cities along the I35 growth quarter have impact fees regardless of their size um many smaller cities around the Houston area um have impact fees um so it's again it's it's it's for a city that size of bont it would probably be more less likely that

you would find a city that doesn't have an impact fee than than does so what's what's the uh administrative cost um again that's that's somewhat of a hard question for me to answer outside of doing this study um which the cost of the study would be rolled into the impact fees so that would be recouped um from an administrative standpoint from the city really the only uh other requirements that the city would have to meet again is making sure that they are segregating this impact fee Revenue coming in and separate bank accounts so there would be whatever that cost is um you know auditing that that fund and just kind of administering that but it's there the administrative costs from the city Side are are very minimal I think his question was what did it cost to do this study um from our standpoint uh the fee is $45,000 roughly is that a percentage of anything no it's just what we think it would it'll take our our uh myself and my associates from our our time and and travel and those types of things to do this process Mr piei how many houses do we build in bman every year very many and how many Office Buildings do we mail this doesn't this doesn't make sense that he going to even pay for the study but that's that's just a high well so level yeah yeah so again I I'll be honest what what we see and and low and low grow cities you can certainly make the argument it you're always going to be better off having impact fees versus not having impact fees in my opinion I don't think

it w cost sobody yeah I mean it it doesn't take that much to recoup I mean if you build 20 houses you've more than recoup the cost of doing the study but you got to pay it on yes have to pay residents have to pay that yes all right any other questions U I'm I'm sorry I'm I don't mean to be uh in my small Engineers mind it doesn't make sense for a small City like ours but I'm sure somebody else is is confident that it's going to work so you would have will just say one other comment on that because this is in my discussions with City staff is we're not only looking at the residential and Commercial vment but potential Industrial Development um as well and if they put a 10-in meter on there then that's a couple million that doesn't make sense the industry is always knocking on our door to get tax abatement and then on the other side you want to raise the meter cost that doesn't make sense yeah that that would be a city council decision to wave or not wave those impact fees for industrial customers well I think we have a very sensible Council so I hope that that's that's going to be the way anyway uh is is there any comments or questions from the audience go ahead please the council is trying to um it it is an added cost certainly again to to a single family residential home it would it would be whatever that impact fee is that cost is going to get passed on to the to the home home owner um it does keep water and wastewater rates lower now again if I'm being completely honest and completely transparent in a low grow City like like city of bont again absent uh this fee

being levied to to larger commercial customers or larger industrial customers you would see an impact on water and wastewater rates being a little bit lower but it it would be a little bit I mean it's it's not it's not going to make a huge difference on on water and wastewater rates um again unless unless growth picks up um as we move forward and discussions with with City staff we do certainly understand that growth is on the low side now um I think there's is a is a certainly desire to have that growth pick up over time and in our in our rate planning we are anticipating on the growth rate increasing say 3 four 5 years out out um but so there is there is some benefit but it does come at a cost I have one more question oh I'm sorry have you surveyed any of the developers in our area about impact statements uh we we have not um again I I will say that any developer that does developments uh uh outside of bont uh any large developers um an impact fee is not a New Concept uh for them so these the this has been around for for a couple of decades at this point and most cities do have impact fees um understood I was just asking have you talked to anybody in our area no we have about it no and this could potentially Be A New Concept for local developers that only do development within the within the city do a development like you're talking about doing impact do you charge the developer like I just kicked off a subdivision with 36

lots and I'm just praying that I could sell those 36 Lots now but I got 36 lots that are on the ground right now am I will I be charged I'm not I'm talking about going forward down will I be charged an impact fee when I start the project are are the individuals who buy the Lots from me will be charged at impact fee not to get ahead of myself but city of galston or this biver Crystal Beach their water department charges a $5,000 fee but it's for a grinder and all that when you transfer the lot when you buy the lot from the developer you have to pay it my question is is do you if I got to be is my customer going to pay this impact fee when they go to build their house or am I going to pay the fee up front for that customer so it might be five years before a house gets built out there yeah so so typically impact fees are assessed time of plat and they're collected when the building permit is issued so in most cases for what for for the let's say the home that the home not the subdivision that is correct so it is normally they are assessed when the development first occurs but it is normally the home builder that pays the impact fees and then that cost onto the eventual home buyer and in my particular instance city did not do anything about extending water andur to me at all it was there it was adding on and we took it from there and we paid everything the city has not put out a DI so you're you were talking fee the reason for your impact fee but in this particular case they haven't done anything all they're going to do is reap the benefits and I'm not complaining I took this thing G and I realized that it's a risk that I took and I'm hoping to make money out of it but they I took it own and so the city hadn't done

anything and I'm okay with that you but my question's going to be is is there was a subdivision the gentleman behind me got an approved the subdivision that the city allowed them to put asphalt streets in the city of bont asphalt streets and open ditches and I got a hard time with that because I'm a developer and I got to put in concrete streets wherever I go now I'm not going to complain about my friend behind me and say that was wrong they going to be charged that impact fee the time me is are you going to pick subdivisions and say well this is a low-end subdivision so we can't afford to attack and put an impact fee on that but here's Mr pru's building $150,000 lot he can afford here's DH Horton who's going to go in and buy big trying to buy a trick track of land from us to put in a lot of lots and are they going to be charged $5,000 on a $250,000 house that's a lot of money for them to pay and I and I know Horton's used to that but I'm just wondering is that what's gonna is that what you're looking at $5,000 number you threw it out and now everybody's going to stick with that number but I I gotta believe I don't think that number is going to come at $5,000 if it does then we do have a problem like council's already said I do believe that our number is going to be much lower because our demand is not there you mentioned the school system that's part of the reason why we got other issues but that's just one of the many issues yeah so let me let me try to answer your your question in Parts if I can and you can tell me if I if I missed anything um for one I do understand that now people are going to take a number and run with it and that's why I was very hesitant to give out any number at all because at this point we just we just don't know and even if that number does come

out to be the Maximum Impact fee comes out to be $6,000 again count I want to make it very clear that Council has the discretion that doesn't mean that they have to charge that um you know and and that that's something that Council um as far [Music] as your other your other question was a very good one and it's something that we get asked a lot well hey I built this new subdivision and theity didn't have to extend any any water transmission lines out to me or Wastewater interceptors out to me so why do I have to pay an impact fee um because as you said you know the city didn't do anything to provide me service and while the city may not have built anything new to provide you service you are using capacity and a system that the city has paid for um so you are taking up some of that excess capacity um that that is already there that you are now using for your benefit um and chapter 39 yeah so so so let's take uh let's take a simple example and say um a a water tower an elevated water tower um that was built 10 years ago um so the city is the city has built that water to to they've paid for it they either paid cash for it or more than likely they they debt financed it and so they're paying Debt Service on that water tower year to year um it is likely that that water tower has that they're not using the full capacity of that water tower so if you come in even if it's with 10 homes and and and you know you're using some of the capacity within that within that water tower the city has spent funds for your benefit even if if you do

not connect to the system 10 years until 10 years down the road now the way we make taxes for part of what you pay service from the city yeah so the in place hey let me let me answer that so the the water tower was not paid for through property taxes um the water tower was likely paid for through water and sewer revenues in this case that's what I just said you pay a water bill bill every month you do um and so the idea behind impact fees though is if we have impact fees then when you connect your 10 homes you are then paying for that water tower through impact fees again we would have to go through this process of backing out what we what we would expect those new 10 homes to pay for through utility rates so we back out their utility ratees piece and we reduce the impact fees by that amount so that we're not double charging buy and it's already been there I pay for the water lines lines I pay for energy to do underground in there I pay for all the concrete I all the legal fees everything else goes along with and yet now I'm supposed to pay another $5,000 yes and and you and and you are and you're correct ask you

this yes no no one is behind me why why are you here uh I believe that this eventually came forward because one of the things that the city is trying to do at the same time is also lessen Water and Wastewater utility rate um the city has a lot of projects on their CIP list most of which are not related to growth but the city is kind of at a point where they're seeing a lot of money being spent from the water and waste water utility on rehab and they just doubled all the yes because there are there projects that need to be rehabed rehabilitated so on and so forth so again it kind of goes back to that yes can can I can I finish years and he always came in under budget only thing he ever did was fix what BR yes and and and again and again it's it's it's kind of at this point the city is where it is it's not necessarily how we got here all right gentlemen thank you uh let me ask this the city council is here did you guys vote on the fee for this project I have one more question okay how how I'm sorry how does how do these people get hired okay so is your question so the majority of council likes pre but if we all dislike Mr hman we can charge in yeah but then you have to pay for it he said that he said if you if you relieve somebody from the payment you have to pay it the city has to pay it he said that at the beginning it is up to the it is up to the city council it it would be at the city's council's discretion as to if

they wanted to wave impact fees for certain developments again I'm not a lawyer but even if you you wave impact fees for certain developments you cannot be discriminatory in how you go about doing that so if what's you're describing again I would assume that that would start raising some some legal questions um you put Council in a position winners and losers well my my my personal preference is that for cities that have impact fees is that you you don't wave them for anybody and you don't have that problem um because that's the whole point of putting impact fees in place to begin with um is there anybody that would like to speak in favor of this seriously I mean to be fair yes go ahead well wait a minute let me finish all right I a bit that way but I understand where the city is coming from I'm not here to everybody is going in order for you to function at at uh uh your engineering firm you have to change your hourly rate every so many years I have that and then in the city will do it through their maintenance and their permit fees exactly and they're doing all that but I don't think they can raise enough money to what offset what they think they're going to spend now I just whispered to Richard I said Richard before we make a b cool of ourselves let's just see what the study produces and is the does the study produced that we ought to be giving them money for developing the property not taking money from them well study is not going to prove anything other than setting your fee in in my opinion if if you have a big project you take it on as a bond you go to the citizens you vote on

it all right thank you very much sir thank you uh it was a delight I appreciate it uh any other comments not around this one what else you want to say okay thank you all right folks thank you very much it's 451 uh Mr Mayor we really appreciate your patience uh we're done so you can send us home meeting is now thank you all for anyway huh any