County Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

I do. I think it's healthy. Okay. I think it's healthy. I thought we just nominated to the quality of work we get. I nominate Jeff. Okay, [laughter] I'll second that.

I didn't. This is the Lorraine County Board of Commissioners and Lorraine County Planning Commission. It's a joint public hearing today. It is now 2:45 and it's regards to the updates to the subdivision regulations of Lorraine County. Um, I think I have to do roll call. Oh, well, we have to pledge, right? Let's start with a pledge to the flag. Thank you, Commissioner.

I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Commissioner Rudell here. Commissioner Moore here. Mr. Gallagher here. Mr. Gibbs here. Mr. Weezmmeer here. Uh Miss Haynes, she's not here. Mr. Bourne here. Mr. Ketches here. Mr. Arburster. And then Mr. Hignet.

No. Okay. We have a quorum. Uh, Mr. Greenspang, you are up. Great. Thank you. Is this on? Should be. Todd, can you Yeah, we're good. All right. Well, commissioners and commission, thank you for uh allowing us to have this public hearing, this joint public hearing today. I know this is unique to um Are we good? No. Yes. Go ahead. I'm hearing the microphones aren't on. Is it on? We're good.

Okay. Uh this is unique to Lorraine County and having a joint hearing. I'm not sure in talking with Teresa that we've done this before, but this is uh required by OC in order for us to advance the subdivision regulations project that um that I've been working on for the last 15 months on behalf of Lorraine County. And just briefly before we go into the slideshow, what what this is ultimately is we are we are updating and modernizing the administrative process for which subdivisions are reviewed and recommended um from townships and to the their respective um board of trustees. So in no way does this is anything that's being presented in here usurp or change the authority of townships. It is merely administrative review so that we can more effectively process the applications from developers as they move forward through the process of subdivision regulations and submissions. So with that um so I can't see it here. Is that [cough]

Can you see that one? I I can see that one. Yes. So I guess not. I I that I definitely can't. Todd, is there any way this monitor could go live? This one's not live. No. All right. You'll have to use the All right, Teresa, can I can I get my pronounce? Thank you. Glasses. I They're only for up close.

Thank you. [clears throat] So what I want to do is go over some of the the the goals that we set forward when we started this task of reviewing the the guidelines and what we did here. The goal of and I'm not going to read by the way every word off every slide but I think there are some that are important to highlight. The goals of consolidating and modernizing subduition regulations Lraine County, Ohio are to clear are to create a clear, consistent, and effective development framework that reflects current best practices, promotes coordinated growth, and supports residential development while protecting public health, safety, and the environment. So some of the strategic priorities that we went through when we started and went through this process was obviously we wanted to streamline the process, ensure consistency, incorporate modern standards, enhance transparency, promote coordination and support quality development to provide some context. The uh Todd next slide currently in Lraine County there are two sets of subdivision regulations. The engineers office has a standard and the planning commission has a standard and there are some inconsistencies and there are some conflicts that are have been created between the two. What we intended to do here was consolidate that into one consistent plan. So definitions are consistent from from one one to the other which is has been a little bit of a challenge. It helps for streamline processes in coordination and development. So, the purpose, as I may have just already stated, is is to provide clarity and address concerns and reinforce the purpose of modernizing consolidated regulations in a way that supports your township's authority. To be explicitly clear, the protocol change uh changes do not usurp local control. Rather, they streamline the internal review and recommendation process of the county planning commission and the county engineers office. These updates are designed to support each township's unique character and vision while ensuring the review process is

efficient, consistent, and aligned with modern standards. I said I wasn't going to read every slide, but I thought this was this one was really important to for everybody to understand because I did get a concern and this was a late ad slide and you might not have seen this last month um when I made a presentation here on on the same material because there was a concern out there that what we were doing here was changing the way townships operate or their guidance and vision for their their specific uh community. We are not intending to do that at all. All we're doing is modernizing and streamlining the process in which the administration of the applications are submitted and reviewed. Next slide. Okay. So I just want to go over the process. So the project was initiated around LA year ago September. We did significant research and benchmarking. We provide drafts of of uh revi draft revised regulations. We had engagement from uh stakeholders. This is the approval process and once it's approved it'll be recorded then the implementation shall begin. Next slide please. So the project initiation phase we identified uh the need for the update and we defined goals and what's important to note here is the consolidated to subdivision regulated regulation documents into a cohesive document. So the Lraine County Engineers specifications and regulations, their current document has not been updated since 2004. So in 21 years and the county's sub uh planning commission sub regulations were regulated in 2019. Next slide. So you might be asking, you know, who was involved in the process and and how did we get here? So I was tasked with with spearheading this process. We had assistance from John Gaul and Matt Matt Shonne from from my team. And then we

also had a various other members of our community staff, our county staff, uh Kristen Brandon and Kelly Smith. We had Don Romantic and Lynicis from Stormwater. We had our county engineer with Bob Klyber and and Shawn Dala, legal counsel from Lee Pru and Kathy Prowace and members of the development community. So this process was not created in a vacuum. The outcome was created in a collaborative effort with those who are engaged in in the administration of the um of the review process. Next slide please. So research and benchmarking. We looked at our existing uh county planning and county engineers and identified sections to retain, revise and remove. We used benchmarking standards compared to other neighboring uh counties such as Erie County. And we collected data from stakeholders. So we had seven meetings with developers. Each meeting averaged about 2 hours. Our county planning and storm water, we met four times. Each meeting lasted an average of three hours. County planning, stormwater management, and the engineer, we had four meetings, each averaging around 4 hours. And then we pulled everybody together and had a marathon 6 and 1/2 hour meeting. Now, this doesn't include the time that that each of us individually put into the review to come forward before these meetings. I would probably guess that collectively there there may be as much as 1,000 to to 1500 hours involved in this process when you take the time that everybody took to prepare for these meetings alone and to come together and come up with the consolidated plan and an agreed upon process. Next slide please. So we put together uh draft revised regulations. They focused again on consolidation, modernization and internal review. Next slide. We had process engagement which involved uh informing uh stakeholders, collected feedback and we had several um revised drafts as we work through the process. Next slide.

The approval process. So this is where we are right now. We're we're at the tail end of the approval process. Um, on October 29th, the planning planning commission, we sent out final draft submission regulations and a comp do uh to members of the subdivision uh this review committee that I mentioned. Uh, planning commission sent out notices regarding this hearings to all townships. Um, that's supposed to be done by law 30 days prior to today's meeting. We sent it out 7 weeks in advance, trying to be as transparent, as engaging as possible. Planning Commission gives its public notice hearing uh on November 17th. Board of Commissioners give gave public notice twice which is required by law both on December 4th and December 11th. Subdivision re review committee uh met on the 16th although we didn't discuss it there. It's not a requirement but I had that on here because anticipation when I put this together that I would making a presentation at that time and this is where we are today on the 18th. The expectation is and and and I may be a little overzealous, but the expectation today is is that the planning commission when they meet and the commissioners when they meet after the planning commission will approve the subdivision regulations uh as revised for the um development in the townships subdivision development and the townships in Lraine County. You'll be have the opportunity to um vote on two measures uh in each of your respective meetings. uh both have to do with the subdivision regulations. So what you're going to be voting on first are the regulations themselves and the second item will be a separate resolution regarding the fee schedule. So in the current documents that the county is operating under the fee schedule is part of the document. It's been recommended by best practices that we separate the fee schedule from the subdivision regulations and that's what we're doing here today. So in your respective meetings when the planning commission meets um I would hope that the recommendation would be to refer to the board of county commissioners both the

subdivision regulations in one res one uh resolution and recommend a second resolution regarding the fee schedule. To touch on the fee schedule the planning commission fee schedule is remaining unchanged. It has not been changed since 1984. There are no increases in fees for 40 years as it relates to subdivision regulation fees that the county commission that county planning commission provides. And I believe and it's a similar uh situation although I'm not sure the time frame from the engineer but there are no increases in fees from the county engineer uh that's being proposed today. Correct.

Uh it's my understand we we modeled ours after sorry could catch up. Uh I believe that the engineers office modeled ours after one of the cities here within uh Lraine County. I don't know if you guys want to know which city we modeled after. It was one that uh was brought up to us several times as having good standards uh and they were a good model to go after. We reviewed it um and we didn't have any issues with what they were doing. So I I don't know comparatively as to what we were charging versus what we will be charging. I think it'll be just a little bit little bit different. Maybe more upfront, less perl lot or maybe vice versa. But but we are modeling it as it's a Northridgeville is who we're doing it after.

Next slide. So the implementation once assuming it's it's passed by both by both um a recommendation adoption by the commissioners a copy will be a certified copy will be sent to the recorder's office and once the recorder receives it and records it then they shall be the regulation subdivision regulations in Lraine County. What I want to highlight to you and uh one of the things that I put together uh in this process was a comp a comp do comparative document. I know County Administrator Armbberster and I are familiar with those in the legislature. It compares the current regulations to the proposed changes in a macro sense. We're looking at the major items. That's not what I'm going to be presenting each of those items, but I'm going to highlight to you in the next few slides. A couple of the major changes that were that are being proposed. So, next slide, please, Doug. So, as I talked about article one, the introduction, what we're doing is consolidating two independent documents regarding subdivision regulations into one. So, the introduction reflects a unification of that. I talked about definitions. Uh we did consolidate definitions and came to to standardize definition terms. So to give you an example, minor differences but differences enough is that in in the county planning uh definitions versus the county engineer, the definition of a culde-sac is slightly different. And so that may cause confusion in the development community as to why do we have culde-sac with two different definitions. We now consolidate that to eliminate any confusion as to what a culde-sac definition is. Um one the third item there has to do with the the consolidation of a fee schedule. Uh so now there's one fee schedule. It's presented in one resolution instead of separate fee schedules. Um give you another example. I'll just move down the definition of major and minor subdivisions. There was conflicting language. A major subdivision by OC is

six or more. A minor is five or fewer. But our codes had a minor subdivision as as five or fewer. And a major is five or greater. So the question came in what if somebody had five? Is it major? Is it minor? So we we we had we now have parody with state law. Just some minor examples of some things in here. Next slide, please. One one exciting item in here um with on next slide, Tom. I'll I'll talk to it. Uh, one of the items in here is that we were we were able to work with the county engineer in that um there's now an alternative for the developers if they would like to engage a separate engineer um to review their their plans. The process would be the engineer would would put out an RFP, they would review and the county commissioners would then approve a list of engineers that the developers may be able to choose from. The intent [clears throat] there is to streamline the process. If the engineer's office uh gets a significant amount of submissions, this will help streamline the process, which is the intent. Um, one of the other major items that we did in this as it relates to the review process right now, the review process within the planning commission, um, it could take, uh, up to 90 days for various levels of review if it has to go back and be re-reed. with Kristen and Kelly's guidance, we were able to reduce that from 90 days to 57 days in review. And so that's that is a is a six is a 37% reduction in time to assist in development moving forward in Lraine County. Um let me move through to through next slide, Todd.

Next slide is done. I don't remember. It's I did. You did. Okay, great. Thank you. Um there are some others like I said I'm not going to go through every one of there was one other item as it related to the engineer and the engineer also agreed to review and streamline their processes and their process review time went from 90 days to to um I'm drawing a blank on the number and I don't have it down here but it's a 70% reduction in time to review um specific requirements of and demands upon the engineer. The last slide is just a question mark. I'll be glad to answer any questions from from the planning commission or from the commissioners.

I have a question. Yes, sir. You're saying that this was not done in a vacuum. Why weren't the townships included in this? This is an internal review process of our administrator of how the county and the county planning and the engineer operate. So, but you understand Yeah. Every subdivision that this impacts is in a township. Correct. Correct. This does not impact any of the township processes and how they submit to the to the county. It's an internal review of our administrative process. I understand your question, but this is an internal review of how we operate. We want to provide a more streamlined process.

I have a question, Dave. Uh does the engineer that is uh hired have the capability to be the develop developers engineer or the subdividers as well? Is this on? Yes. Um so so the way it would work um would be the engineers office we would put out RFP or RFQ uh at the beginning of the year. We would review those proposals and that person would be working through the county is way it's set up. So we did not want the developers to be able to hire their own engineer for review as and design. That would have been So is there only one engineer that is selected or is that

we would start with one I believe is the goal. Um and then depending on how often that path is used, we could always increase it. But I think the first year we would envision bringing on one additional I think the the intent is still to use the traditional process through our office. This is only if the subdivider chooses that they want someone else reviewing their plans other than our office. And when you say that, Sean, uh does that apply to improvement plans and to the final plat everything down the line or just to the preliminary plan?

My understanding is that would the county engineer still has to be involved because we have to sign off and approve on the uh the improvement itself on the final plat. Um, so we would still be working with that consultant. Like I said, it would just be a different set of eyes than the ones internally uh at our office reviewing the plans. So So our office would still have some some involvement. We still have some oversight um you know on it, but we would want the [snorts] the consultant to be performing that review by themselves. We wouldn't want to be instructing them how to review set of plans. And so then you're saying that he's involved right down to all the steps to the end.

I would imagine he would be involved right down through the end. Um and then the way it's written as well is that the developer would be paying the consultants fees similar to the way we do third party inspection and this was modeled after Erie County. Erie County has this process in place currently. Question for you Dave. You don't have to raise your hand. You can What's that? You don't have to raise your hand. Interesting. So the uh change the regulations that I were sent to me Mhm. are missing sections. I pointed this out to you after the last planning commission meeting, right? I and I've never received well

any of those. I know on November 11th, November 10th, we sent out um packages to everyone. So, I know that when you mentioned that to me, I I I thought I if I didn't send it out, I apologize to you, but it was my intent. I don't know anybody else. I didn't get one either. Yeah, it was sent out. It was sent out and sent out on November 10th and November 10th. Uh there was a a letter sent out to the township association, the subdivision review committee and the planning commission to receive all the documents including the comp do not only the regulations themselves but the comp do which had all the comparison comparative changes in it as well.

You say they were sent out they were emailed. Okay. So I should have received something correct and I received nothing. Okay. Um, I've talked to other township officials who've never not seen it. This was only sent out to the subcommittee, the subdivision subcommittee. Who was it sent out to? No, it was sent out to sent out to all the townships, the township association, subdivision recommitt, and this and the planning commission as well as the townships themselves. Do we have any other township officials other than Eric?

We I've never received it. I just went through my emails. I got the one on the 29th, but I have never received one on November 10th. And you received that because you're on the subdivision subdivision subdivision review subdivision committee. Yeah, I don't think it was sent out, Dave. I'm sorry. Our township didn't get anything either. Go ahead. I think I think you got a big error here. Funding commission. Did you get one for being on the planning commission? I got the early early one that came out. I didn't get anything recently and I looked through my emails. Yeah. [clears throat] I mean, I'm I'm sorry, Dave. You didn't send It didn't get sent out. You're saying it didn't. It did not.

Well, we'll have to research that and find out why it didn't go out. Well, but the fact was we didn't get the information we needed. Other than you making the statement to me a month ago, which I thought I sent it back out to you, I was unaware that it was not sent out. Nobody contacted me directly. The email that was sent out on November 10th had my contact name and info at the bottom. Um, so I don't I'm not sure what how more to respond than I was not communicated. It was never communicated to me that it's it wasn't received until now. Our requirement by state law is to notify of this meeting 30 days in advance. We did that. We we believed we sent everything out including the Well, you believe you did, but nobody in this room,

okay, has it that should have gotten it. Okay. As I said, this document is administrative review of our internal processes. Um, so the townships don't match. Is that what you're saying? I didn't say No, sir. Please. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Well, no, we weren't included in anything, so I'm I'm sorry. as a township trustee. Yeah. I take offense to not even being included in the conversation. Offended in being included the conversation regarding internal administrative review of process is that I'm just trying to understand you're for everything that impacts the township. Yeah.

Okay. So because when these subdivisions go in the streets are given to the township. Correct. and thereafter they have to maintain it. And nothing's changed as far as your obligations, responsibility, review. I understand, but don't you think we should have input into these subdivisions? I don't Sean I'm I'm not aware that your input authority or or direction is being usurped in any way by this. This is internally how the county now reviews and makes recommendations to town to the townships. [clears throat]

But I know for a fact that the county engineer always tells me, "Listen, we want to do it the way your township wants it done." Yeah. Right. We've been told that many times and that that doesn't change with this, Carl and and Dick. And that's Sean. I am not arguing with you at all. I agree with what you

Oh, I'm just I was just going to let you know I so what what we did what the intent was of this um of of the any updates that came as the engineering side um was to make sure that the townships were not be that we weren't trying to dictate something that the township should be right. So, so like uh when it comes to I I give you one of the highlights was cement stabilization, right? So, it's a big hot topic. Um before I think it was actually it was written in our code that cement stabilization had to be done.

Um there were developers uh and there's other townships now that have actually taken that out of their um regulation that says that that that's something that that can be done um right if it's needed. Um, if you're doing construction right in the middle of May or, you know, in the middle of the summer, you've got a hard subbase, it passes a proof roll, is there a need to cement stabiliz stabilize? Uh, we we now put that onus on, I guess, on two people. One, one, if the township requires it, then it's going to be required by our office, right? So, so a lot of the townships have have their own resolutions that do require that and certain other things for uh residential development. None of that gets taken out of this. This is just what county requirements are. Um and you know and and then you know from our end if the township doesn't require cement stabilization um what we did was say okay well we're going to require the subdivider uh to go ahead and get with a geotechnical engineer and make a recommendation with a PE stand behind it uh and then our office would still review it um and and essentially go with that recommendation. Right. So so it was never about taking anything away from the townships. It was if anything making sure that what you guys wanted was also was still being done. But but you know we we are your engineer. We're not going to let our standards go by the wayside because we we agree with you. You guys are the ones that eventually get these roads. Um and that's why why you know we wanted to be involved throughout the process because in the end we have to you know our county engineer has to approve that the project was completed to the standards agreed upon. So on the final plan

and and I agree that you guys are doing a great job. I agree that the changes you've made are more than acceptable. My point my point here is the fact that the township did have and does have input into certain aspects. But since we do, I feel that we should have been included in the discussions. You're going to have everybody else. I know Mr. Mr. Greenspan, you're telling me this is only administrative, but it's impactful for the townships because after the after the developers are done, guess what? This all gets passed over to the townships and then we get to maintain it from there into perpetuity. And at that point, it's a big deal for us because if they're not if things are not done properly, they impact us tremendously.

Agreed. And I'm not aware look to Sean or look in agreement to Don. Yeah, we're all in agreement on that. I don't believe this anyway.

I don't see how we can how can we approve this? You didn't get us our the documentation that we need. We don't have a complete set of the regulations. Well, then what we can do is we will send it, resend it. We'll at your discretion and the commissioners if that's the direction we want to move and we have no hard and fast deadline that we have to pass this by by today or by the end of this year. We want you to be satisfied with what's in there. To your point, if the trustees and the townships um wish, once again, I apologize it didn't get out to I wasn't aware of it until literally just, you know, now um and you you did bring it to my attention. And I thought you were an isolated incident. I thought I resent it back out to you. We can defer and come back next month. We have got to go through some public reporting requirements in order to get this meeting noticed and sufficiently. So, it's going to be at least a month before we can reconvene this meeting. Um, but be happy to do it. You have to be happy and satisfied. And looking at the commissioners, I know they're going to want their trustees and their townships to be happy and satisfied as well. And so, we'll be glad to to defer this discussion until notice we put out a notice. I'll work with our clerk and I'll work with our planning staff and we'll reconvene this meeting and you'll have all the all the materials that uh we originally sent out. So what you can expect to receive is is is a draft this res this uh the regulations as well as a comp compl comparative document with the major regulations from what's currently in place to what's been proposed changed. Yes, commissioner.

How long are your arms? How long? I want to make sure I'm two inches further than that away. [laughter] Don't worry, I am not a I am not a for Just so you know, we've had this discussion before.

Okay. For the for the audience and uh it's it's a pleasure to see people who care enough to participate in the process. But the commissioners, you know, we received that one of the things that was was a problem was the relationship and the and the red tape between the commissioner's goals, the engineers office and the planning commission. Everybody was doing their job, but there were conflicts. If we made the planning commission happy, then there was a problem with the engineer. If the engineer was made happy, then the soil and water might have an issue. And so what we did was we convened a group. This was all county level stuff. This is after you all have decided that you've approved the subdivision, you've approved the lot sizes, you approve the pavement width, you approve all of that stuff. This is how the developer then proceeds in order to get his permits from soil and water, from the engineers's office, from planning commission, uh, rural water, sewage capacity, all of that stuff all has to all has to be decided after you've done and improved the subdivision. It's all done. And so at the end of the day, our red tape was holding you back from the developer delivering the the the project that you had approved. And when I got here in 2023, we had two projects that year that started out at the beginning of the year and by the time the season ended in the fall, they weren't even out of our approval process. They were not ready to plan and get going for the upcoming year. And when you talk about economic development, you know, those

things are already approved. Our job is advisory and and uh to support. We were not supporting the system. We weren't supporting the developers. We weren't supporting the townships. And so we convened our team because we were the problem. We had no problems with townships. Nobody complained about township specs. Nobody complained about township processes. Everything was cool. The problem was on our end and we were not expeditious in delivering things. And one of the major ones that Dave has already addressed was, you know, if you if you brought in a new set of drawings, it was 30 days to get a review. And if those drawings came back and there were two items on there that need to be re-reed, it was the same 30 days. and staff agreed with us. You're right. We don't need 30 days to go over two items. We can look at their solution for those two items. We could return and review in 10 days. So, we made those changes to expedite the process. Uh similarly, yeah, I not everybody understands soil stabilization, but I thank Sean for using that because I do.

So do I.

Okay. [laughter] Not everybody does, but say, you know, covered pipe, there's concrete, there's metal, there's plastic, and there's manufacturers that make all those products, and they have manufactured specs. So, what we did was we looked at it and we changed it. The county had the county would say, "Well, we want concrete pipe." And maybe the township said, "No, we want we want plastic pipe." We were in conflict with the townships. So what we did is we took that spec and said the developer can use plastic, metal, concrete pipe. He has to follow manufacturers recommendations for cover, depth and so forth. That left the townships, you could pick whichever one of the three you want, but what was left in place was our requirement that they had to follow manufacturer specs, which the engineer keeps track of that stuff on behalf of the townships. You have to just decide which of the three you want. You don't have to decide, well, do we have 8 in of cover or 12 in of cover. Sean and staff has that job. And so what we did was we broadened it so that we were never in conflict with any of the township requirements and the door was open for the townships to use whichever one they wanted. Okay. Uh, so at the end of the day, I think the impass in the conversation is [clears throat] if we if we were going to write a spec that mandated something for the townships, we'd have to have all the townships at the table. What we were doing is just making sure we were not in your way. Now, this other issue with the paperwork, I I think that there's there I think that we need to establish, you know, I feel bad that we have that impass and that we got to this point, but I agree that we need to talk about

the ability to go forward when you've not had a chance to get the comfort that we did what we said we did and we didn't do something that you're concerned about. I think if if if we have if we have missing them, we have to bite the bullet and we have to push this down the road a month. Our only reason trying to get it done this year is that it started in the first quarter of this year. Actually started a little bit in the fall of of 24, but you know,

the baby's three months overdue. Jeff, I think that's what Carl's trying to get across that when you started thinking about it 15 months ago, if you would have just asked us if we could find some representative that could feel comfortable that they were representing the township's views in a combined effort, not just not all 20, that we would have had an input and then we would have an output that we could present to the townships. Well, and now we don't have that.

And Dick, I take full responsibility for that because as I put the crew together to solve the problem, I put the crew together that was having issues with each other. We had no issues with the township. Okay. Okay. Well, now you're making [laughter] one. Well, we didn't. We had no issues. And that was, if you want to call that my insensitivity, but

you know, I I I two people that are arguing. I put those two people in a room and say we ain't leaving a room till we resolved it. And we put the three people in the room that had issues and we didn't know that there was 17 others. You know, nobody from the township came to the commissioners and said, "By the way, we're having a problem with the engineer. We're having a problem with planning commission. We got these issues." But the developers came to the commissioners and they're our constituents, number one. And number two, they drive our economic development. Well, but they and the the impression we got was and that you had your ear and we didn't have it and that's the problem.

Well, I guess you have to look Dick at I ask you to look at before you rush to judgment on this issue maybe, but we had your back.

Okay. We had your back the entire process. Okay. and and I ask you to look at the other 482 times you did have my ear. Well, the uh one thing that I will say in support of Carl is that I found and I have the whole uh thing here in print that I was emailed that are the regulations being proposed and as he indicated I have at least uh three or four places where there's written right in the regulation this is in error refer to this and there's nowhere to go to. They're referred to as error codes. Yeah, that that was that was and I fixed those. That was

I gave you the papers. That was a broken link when that was a broken link to a reference a reference of a of a subsection. Correct. That's been corrected. And I gave you and I gave that to you, but I have not received anything. And from what I've the people that the township people that I've talked to, uh, well, even Eric Flynn back here who sits in the subdivision review with me, he hasn't received it. I mean, so all right. Well, we appreciate there was a breakdown and it that needs to be rectified.

Here here we will rectify that. We will get get them out to you immediately like as I said with the comp do so you can have have a bold review of the two. Here's what I ask in return. To confirm that you've received it, please reply back received. That way we there won't be any because somewhere I'll do that as soon as I get it. Perfect. Somewhere along the way you don't get it [laughter] right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. You don't hear from me. You don't Oh, but there's an assumption if you send it, it did get there. Send a receipt request. We'll we'll do this. We'll make this commit and we'll get it out today today. Today, tomorrow. If you don't get it by by next Monday. Well, respond back to me.

I guess the other thing that I would request I mean,

Mr. Knessnness and I have looked through these quite a bit. I mean, we've we've been pretty diligent to go through these. We have a we have a few things that we would like to talk to people. You know, I would like to have a document that that is accurate and and correct. We think there's some mistakes or maybe some omissions that weren't planned on. I guess the way I look at it, I I can write something. No, no, don't get don't get I can write something and proofread it myself three times and it's everything looks fine. Jeff will look at it and in two minutes he's going to say, "Look at a big mistake you got right here." And that's fine. Another pair of eyes is never a bad thing. And I think that's what Dick and I are have been trying to do is have another set of eyes. And I know other people in the township, we'd like to have enough time that we could we could talk to other people in the townships and see, listen, is this something is is this okay the way it is? because maybe I'm being too restrictive, and I don't I don't mean to be that way, but I I have my opinions, of course. I'd like to get some other people's. I'd like to have a little bit of time to do that. I I would recommend and we're we've got a meeting coming up here afterwards. So, we'll have to we'll have to we'll have to go to uh Teresa for the final adjudication on process, but

well, actually, this is just the joint meeting. So, there are two meetings after this. one of the plan. So, but at the end of the day, I I would say that, you know, this is a this is a a big thing. It is.

It's important to the commissioners. We think it's going to be a major, you know, everybody's been telling us, [clears throat] you know, cut red tape, do this, do that. And we pulled the staff together. They had the message. It was a very successful project. And it and it and I'd like to see it proceed. If we stubbed our toe, that's my responsibility. Uh, and if what we want to have is we want you to have that finished, proofread document for enough time to be able to go through it so you can see that we didn't do anything that you should be concerned about or that you are concerned about. And if you do have concerns, the opportunity to to vet those either through Dave directly or through the through the planning committee process because you're right, most of the planning commission activity,

you know, it's in the townships. I mean, we may process a few uh paperwork for air pollution and I have no idea why that's on the agenda, but that's down so low on my list of priorities, I don't question it. Okay. But this is a really this is a really important piece of change and we have the cooperation of all the county people involved in it. I'm proud of our staff and I want the townships to be as proud of this project as we are. So whatever we have to do to get your trust back and to get to have you see that we didn't misrepresent anything because I don't think you'll find it. You can read it three times, Carl, but I don't think you'll find it. I I I see some errors, little things. Okay. And that's what they are.

The way you're putting it together with a county engineer, I applaud it. Yeah. I I appreciate all of that. It makes it I sit on I've been on this subdivision review subcommittee long enough. I understand how there can be the conflicts. So, right there, you you're kind of preaching to the choir. I get it and I appreciate it. I've been a builder. I haven't never been a developer. I mean, we've got Mr. Yos back here that he's been doing it forever and that's great. I'm glad and I hope this helps him. I hope it helps all the developers to be able to move forward in a very orderly ma fashion.

I know we could handle this, Carl, cuz we put five developers in the room and we got them to all agree on what was important and what [clears throat] wasn't. So, at the end of the day, if we can handle them, we're going to do well with you guys. That's right. And and in in in defense of some of the stuff that's happened here, it is going to be kind of a living document because there are 190 pages or whatever it is, 150 pages here, somebody's going to find something down the road and there are provisions in there to make a change on it without going through a major process like we're going through right now.

Yeah, there is. And you could probably read exactly how it's set that if there's a change that needs to be done after it's been approved by this committee and the board. it that's very very close to the beginning of the document and it says that and I I get that I do I if it's just small things yeah we work we work through them but the fact that we're missing sections there's a lot of that that comes from the integration of two documents and we eliminated 50 pages

and we took two documents and made it one so it's kind of like the football team we're on we got one game plan Okay. And we're here to support the townships and we're here to support the developers because you're two sides of the same coin. Okay. You decide you want a subdivision. They want to build it. Mhm. Now we just got to get us out of the way. Right. Right. That's what this is all about. Yeah. They want to build it. We just want one that last. Yeah. at last because [laughter] because it becomes a financial burden on the country.

Sure. If you control the zoning and if we say, you know, use what the soils engineer says for stabilization, you go, nope. I want stabilization in everyone. [clears throat] I'll be the way it goes. I'll be honest. I have read through this and especially the engineering portion of it. I like it better than what I have now. I'll say that out. Sean, how much did you pay? So, are you going to call the vote? No, I'm not. [laughter] I I'll send your Christmas gift in the mail.

So, we we'll get we'll get we'll get the documents out to you. Respond back that you got it. So, we know you got I you made comments and and a developer made comments as well, which we forward to the engineers office. By that, it was my belief that it was out out in the in the open. I didn't have anybody say they didn't get it. So, this was news to me today and we'll correct that issue. That's right. So, what do we do? Table it? Well, we have to go to public comment, right? We have to go to public comment on this and then you're you have each planning commission and the commissioners have called meetings. So, you have to open your meetings

together. We have public comment and then we have our other meetings, okay, to follow which obviously the the uh the complexion of those meetings has changed, right? But we everybody took the time to come here. We might as well have the public comment. Correct. So, as I understand, Teresa, correct me. So, I don't know who's chairing this meeting, but you kept looking at me. So, [laughter] you're in charge, Bob. I led I led the pledge. I'll take the job. [laughter] So you'll take public comment. Once that's done, then you will adjourn this public hearing. Yes. And you'll need to call then the planning commission. Are we going to adjourn it? You have to adjourn the public hearing

because we're going to have to set up a whole another one with another set of stuff. Yes. So yes. Yeah. So then there'll be a joint called plan commission meeting. There's nothing there's no action for you to take. You can open it and close it. Correct. And then the commissioners will have to meet. There's no action referred to the commissioners. They'd have to open and close it. Correct. Just to procedurally go through the progress. And that's it. But you do have to take public comment if the board started talking. Right. Now, we take it as part of this convention. There we go. So, who wants to who wants to control the public comment? They just have to come up to the podium and state their name and address. Just if you want if you want.

Do we have any individuals who have signed up for the public comment and read them by name, Teresa? and we'll call you up to the podium where Dave just moved in the back there and make your comments and we like them if possible to be 2 minutes or less. Thank you. Tracy, you got the list. I know Bob Yo signed up. I'm good. You don't want to be We'll talk next time. Can we Can we have some stuff? Was there anybody else? I didn't see the other person here talk. I like the way he did that by saying, you know, I'll call you out if you want to speak, you speak.

Yeah, that's what I do for meetings. [clears throat] I don't know how else I don't sit there and go, who's that? We are taking notes from tell you how much trouble that'll get you.

Okay, so the next person would be Eric Flynn. Eric Flynn, 43287 Jones Road, Wallington, Ohio. Penfield Township Trustee. I guess transparency, I think, is what Carl was getting at too to me in this process was a little bit lacking. I sit on that subdivision review committee, too, and found out about three weeks before we got the first email that you guys were even doing this. Isn't that right, Carl? It was basically the end of September. Yeah, it was the meeting before. So by by Commissioner Redell

by Jeff was at the meeting and said explained what you guys were doing. But as a township trustee, Carl and I are looking at each other like agree with red tape cut it makes things streamlined. But also we are I would say like Carl the largest stakeholders in this group and the townships is we're the ones getting the subdivisions. It's frustrating that we're not getting a seat at the table. I did catch one thing and it's probably an oversight on Mr. Greenspan, but when he was talking about all the names of the stakeholders, he list in the engineers office. So, like three or four names. The name he didn't read off was the developers that were at the table, but yet again, no trustees at the table. I We got to change this, guys. We really need transparency between our local governments and our county government. We need to be on the same team. I think we can get there, but we need to communicate better. That's all I have to say today.

Thank you, Eric. Um, and the last one, unless there's anybody else that did not sign up, is Brian Barker. Baker.

Good afternoon, Brian Baker, 49822 Greystone Drive, Brown Township. I guess my concern would be is here is first of all if you didn't get the information it probably legally probably has to be tabled. My second concern is I live in Brownhelm. There's a lot of talk about what's going on out there. They have a meeting on I think 122 talking about land use which is so I guess I'm looking for a clarification is if they don't adopt what you put here they don't have to use it. I guess that's the question that I would have because it seems like you're going to approve this today. They're going to have a hearing on something on the 22nd in Brownhelm and there's all kinds of rumors out there by my house there's talking about a data center all these things and it's out my back window. So I do have a major concern what's going to happen. It doesn't seem like here it and I come to the meetings so I pay attention when these are and if it affects me in my area I'm going to show up to it. And so I guess my concern is two things. I would recommend you table it because I think legally you probably have to because if someone didn't receive their information, you're bypassing your 30 days that you have to have it out. So with that, I just say it it just seems like the cart before here. Here's Brownhelm already and I hope they're not putting us out there to do something on the 22nd, but I will be at that meeting because that affects me personally. So thank you.

Well, I can answer your question. The Brownhelm process is separate from this process. So, they're in the process of updating their long-term zoning plan. Okay. This is just the subdivision regulations. So, that's a separate process from what we're doing here. Thank you for the clarification, ma'am. Yeah. Thank you for your comments and and I and I would add to that for both again uh is that again

the zoning like like they're going through and like many of you have done that's to decide what to do with the land. But when it involves the construct the construction of housing development subdivisions, you guys have the townships have said we want the engineer to represent us and we want the planning commission to represent us. We want the commissioners to represent us. So at the end of the day, all we did was put our group together. And if we'd had something that we wanted to change in the townships, we'd have said, "Hey, townships, you need to come to the table." But this is all about what happens after the townships use their authority and control to determine what to do with the land. And there's, you know, and and Brown Helm is not the only one that's going through land use use, but none of what we did impacts anything until you've done what [clears throat] you do.

Correct. Okay. Correct. I agree with But but I appreciate it. And Brian, I I appreciate the fact that for the first time in months, you've agreed with me because I already volunteered that we need to table it. [laughter] Let me let me if if I can. Um, what we'll do is we'll send it out. As I said, we will I I will I will convene a meeting with the trust representatives from the trustees. You Carl, since you're the most vocal about this, you let me know who you'd like at that meeting. Okay? After you get get after you guys get this, come together with questions or comments you have, we'll go through it. There is a process. The process is easier before it's sent out for adoption than it is once it's adopted. Well, that's what we thought, too.

Yeah. And so what'll happen is and and when we get qu like you raised a question and I circulate it to the team which includes the engineer and storm water and our county planning to appine and legal are there any questions with the recommendation being made. So we'll go through that process again. It's it's not not you know like I said there's no urgency. We don't have to get this done today. We want to make you comfortable. So what we'll do is I'll I'll let you lead the process on the trustee side. you get the information, have them funnel everything through you or your your group of trustees. Okay?

We'll sit down and meet and then from that point we'll we'll we won't set a meeting today. I won't say it'll be in 30. It's got to be at least 30 days notice, right, Teresa? We're not going to say it's going to be in January. If we have to sit down and work through this, but we will get it done and your input will be valuable and included in the process. Thank you. Hey Dave. Yes, sir. As we set that calendar, what I think we need to do is determine what the final document looks like that they don't have. We need to get it in their hands. The meter starts then to give them enough time to review it and come back and ask those questions, correct?

And then set the the public notices to do what we did here. But I would like that I would like to just as from a guy who's not lived in this world as long as you all have I'm [laughter] not talking about years. I'm talking about private sector. Too close to Carl now. [laughter] I'm not talking about age. I'm talking about priv private public sector. The system worked today. It is. It did. It worked today. I agree. It did. Okay. That's why you open the public meetings. Dave's taken a few bullets here and he didn't wear his Kevlar. Okay. But that's why Stan went way over there.

But he set up not to be this close to meeting. He set up this thing as a joint meeting as part of the process. And he told you this has not happened before. And I'm very proud that we're all here. And even though we disagree, I believe we will at the end of the process. But I want more than getting your vote for this document. We want your trust when we're done. Okay? We want to do the right thing. the right way. We're on the way. Okay.

I can say that I agree with those sentiments and I've been 11 years now on the planning commission and the subdivision subcommittee and that's the first time that we have had that kind of support. Well, you're do a Bronze Star 11 years. [laughter] Okay. All right. What's next, Teresa? No more public comment. Is there more public comment? No. Okay, I think anybody that didn't sign up to that wants to while you're here. I think we'll wait for the next one. Okay. Okay. Yep. So, basically, you're going to have to make a motion to close the public hearing.

Oh, I move to close the public hearing. Second. Second. Discussion. Okay. Did you want to do it? Oh, okay. Just tell us. All in [clears throat] favor? I opposed. [laughter] And then we'll need a motion to adjurnn. Move to adjurnn. Second. [laughter] Everybody. Hey, you guys excuse me being fast. All in favor? We'rejourned. Okay, now what? We got