Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Charlene boy. Uh, Adam is excused. Absent and excused. And Scott is absent and John Cooney is absent and excused. Wow. Little loud tonight. Got it. A lot of food going around. Everybody's sick. Um, we have a we're going to see Jan Prairie and Charlene tonight. And agenda review. Anybody have anything? You're seated. I see that. Okay. Yeah.

Uh, no. So, is there any public comment that doesn't pertain to anything on the agenda tonight? Seeing none, we we'll move on to the first public hearing. PZC 25-16, applicant Elizabeth Durham, location 93 Wetmore Avenue, zone T, Town Center, single family proposal, special permanent application for home occupation, section 415-45.

[clears throat] Pat Renzulo for my daughter and her husband Dwayne. Have a seat. Py, sit. Py, sit down. No, no, the younger people. We're giving you We're giving you a chance to to rest there. [laughter]

Well, first of all, I I appreciate uh all your volunteer work. It's been a lot of years since I was on the board. over 40 years ago as when I was chairman. So, I know some of the work you do and I'm glad for it. You volunteer. Anyway, I'm here to help answer any questions you might have. And of course, Elizabeth and her husband here to do that. You want to explain to us what's going on?

I'll let Elizabeth do that. [clears throat] Um, we just wanted to make sure we did everything the right way. Um, I don't know if it's overkill or not, but we're starting a home a lawn care service business and it's just going to be run from our house. All right. I read the letter that you sent on November 20th, 2025, and it states in here that uh, let's see, the application is corrected. Sir, do we have a corrected application? Several times it mentions corrected application. So, was that submitted to the to the people?

The intention was that that letter is attached to the application. So, that's the correction there. That was my intention, but I can I can update the actual application. Yeah. I mean, I think we in the record, we've got a letter stating that, you know, that those changes are made. I think that's acceptable. And I think if if you get to a point of making a motion, you just reference the letter that was submitted. Okay. With the date.

Yeah. So, we have uh let's see. So, you're only going to have immediate members of your family, right? So, how many people living in that house? There's five people. Five people. Are they your kids or something? Yes, they are. Okay. Um They old enough to work. [laughter] Yeah, they are. They're part of the team now. Will they work is a different question.

Yeah. Right. At some points. Yes. Always. So, there's some issues about the driveway. It seems like, you know, I've driven by several times and there's been multiple cars in the driveway. Okay. Some of them have been in the street and everything. Not in the street. Not in our house. You sure you're at the right house? Spacia English's house? Yeah. I got the right house. There's two cars in there. Her car and my car. And that's it. Well, earlier a few months ago, there was another, but God damn. There's only two cars. Our car and my car.

Yep. I too go by there every day. All right. Um, so you're going to have a trailer with the equipment on it. Oh, Scott's present. [laughter] Taking over for John. How are you? Uh, so you're going to park the trailer in the garage? Yeah. So then you're going to have cars parked At least one car parked outside then. Yeah, it was a twocar garage. Two-car garage. I mean, it's a twocar driveway, right? Okay. Yeah.

And you're going to have a truck to pull the the trailer? No, I got my vehicle. So, you talked about in your was storing stuff in the shed and back. You're not going to do that now? Not for work stuff. The only thing in there right now is just lawn furniture. And I'm not going to store anything that I don't have room for.

This business is seasonal. I'm sure it's just going to be seasonal equipment.

In the summertimes, we'll leave some things in there. In the winter, we'll take them back out. Did you did you submit this with the pictures on it and so forth? Okay. So, it shows cars parked on the the grass on the lawn.

Couple months ago, he's gone. Okay. That's But I mean, is it is it will I mean, I guess I think where I heard Willie going is that there's going to be more equipment and will it prevent parking on the driveway and not necessitate parking on the lawn? I don't plan on going big and getting stuff that I don't need. If anything, there's going to be one more 48 on the trailer, back the trailer into the garage, unhook it, and then you got the two cars. I'm not going to get any big pieces of equipment. Okay. These look like just regular passenger cars that are parked on the lawn, right? They're no longer They're no longer there. Mhm.

So, you got two passenger cars in the pictures and you said you got a truck to pull the uh trailer. I have an SUV. SUV. SUV. Yeah. Parked there in one of the pictures. Silver. Yeah. I guess the question is I think is but if you have more people living there and you also have a business where is there going to be parking for everyone and it looks like they're on the lawn here and

well having anybody stay with us that was just a one time deal you know me Elizabeth and our three kids well and I think can you tell me what kind trailer you're talking about because I think even without a business, you could have cars and trailers as a as a residence. So, are you talking about a big landscape trailer or what size? About maybe a 12footer. Like no bigger than that. Just enough to fit 248. Like a big steak bed. What's that? Like a big steak bed. Uh like how you get a tractor supply. Yeah. Yeah.

And they could always park at my office which is about two miles away or less. And uh that has plenty of uh space, commercial space, so they can park anything they want there anytime.

Question all the I had anything. No, I think the only thing I would just It doesn't seem like you're going to do any stockpiling outside, right? No, I don't plan on bringing anything to my house. I'm running places. So, it's going to look like a normal residence. You're going to like it would be just you're going to get up and if you drove by tomorrow, that's what it's going to look like. Yeah. It's not going to look any There's going to be nothing out in the lines. We live on the corner, so I make the house look decent. I don't need a whole bunch of crap, you know, just everywhere. [laughter]

I think that I think I think that's what we were getting at, right? You got it right. [clears throat]

This this addresses all those concerns. So, you know, the what's going to bother us a little bit is the pictures parking on the lawn. It's obvious that, you know, you've done it previously and took pictures of it, which is bad. So, you had to do when we had the guy there or we had a roommate or like daughter's boyfriend lived there. He had a car, but since he moved out, there's two cars there. there for past couple months.

Those are the only two cars. Only two that drive. So if you got I guess the the real sticky point is you know the car parking. Um, you're going to have your kids working for you. [laughter] They're going to have cars and you know the special permit to occupy this and it's you know the area where your where your vehicles are shown is very well worn in. So that parking was going on for quite a while.

Well, it's also underneath the tree, right? The maple tree. Yeah. And you kill the grass and it doesn't go back. three times and it goes away. Oh,

so if you didn't have a business, you had a bunch of cars in the drive in the grass, that's fine. No, because I mean, you're not supposed to you're not supposed to park on the grass. You should see it up there next to our neighbors. They got cars and trailers everywhere. Jeff will go take care of that later, but right now we're talking about you. We're trying to make a business, trying to do something for Winstead, you know, be another business. Driveway shouldn't be an issue. So, are you operating this business now? What's that? Are you operating this business now? No. I'm just waiting for all this to get done so we can actually do it. Oh, okay. Very honest business person. [laughter] Yeah.

Scott, you have anything else to add to it? No. I don't see a reason to say no. I think we should probably work with our zoning enforcement to see what he doesn't want to see in the future. As conditions of approval because there's everybody a lot of people want that have the smaller trailers like he's talking about. And right I'm glad he came in. That's the next door neighbors just sitting there for months and actually years just rotting away. You know, it's like that's right outside my bedroom window along with this four other cars. I don't even move. We're just trying to concentrate on you. I know. But I mean, it's just a little thing.

But I I I think, you know, if they're using their personal vehicles for landscaping, they, you know, could have a trailer for their own personal use. I think what we would want to look at is to make sure that we don't have a lot of commercial vehicles, right? make sure we don't have two personal [clears throat] vehicles plus five work trucks plus two trip. You know, it if it's beyond what a normal residence would be, you know, [cough] I think that's where we we get into it. So, I was just pulling up to see if we have a a regulation on the number of commercial vehicles. And it doesn't sound like you're going to have any commercial vehicles, right? You're going to have all they're going to be res the trailer may be registered commercial, but I don't think we're talking about a lot of commercial vehicles, so I I'm not overly concerned.

Comments from you. Uh well, I'd like to make sure that there's no extra parking on the lawn. You know, keep an eye on that and your neighbor. Yeah. Uh but you know, whatever conditions you guys feel comfortable setting, we'll make sure Hey, um, can you guys hear me? We We have somebody online. When we get to When we get to public comments, we'll make sure that everybody in the public gets heard. That was a little frightening. What was That's a first. Yeah. Really? How did we get that? Is that coming through?

It's coming through. Yeah, we had somebody request to to sign in online. So, when we when we get to the public comment section, I was going to draw your attention to that and make sure that they had an opportunity to speak. We just haven't gotten there yet. The the Mr. Chairman, the one thing that I would just say and it's not even caution but think about is growth of the business. A lot of landscapers eventually want to like snowplow and stuff like that in the winter. So that's just one thing that we'll want to make sure company for 20 years. I don't want nothing to do with Got it. Okay. So that's a good that's a good answer.

I'm not planning on like getting I just I'm sick of working for somebody else. I want to have enough for me to keep busy through the week, make money, and you know, maybe hire my son and that's about it. you know, just me and one other guy, me and him. That's it. I'm not trying to get rich off of anything. I just I'm sick of working for somebody else. That's pretty much all it is. Trying to feed three kids. Yeah. Well, this is the right. Okay. So, it just says any equipment used in association shall be customarily incidental to the residential use. I think we'll just want to make sure that that stay the same.

So, is there some I mean I somewhere in the back of my mind uh Jeff is coming up that you're not you're supposed to park in your driveways, not on the lawn. You're correct. Is that it's scattered? This is really secondary to what they're in here for. But if it leads to them having to park on their, you know, make a parking lot out of their lawn, that's a no no, right? Okay. And should we address that in in this approval or I don't think it hurts to make sure you put the condition. It's a concern for most people. Okay. So, [clears throat]

yeah. But I mean, if it if it was a regular residence and they had a couple kids with cars and they had to park in the street, as long as it wasn't a parking ban, we wouldn't regulate it. No, just on the lawn. Yeah. Yeah, it's not how many they have. It's whether they're parking on the the the grass, the lawn, using the lawn as a drive a driveway or parking lot. So, we dig up some of our lawn and put down peace. You can't do that without a permit. You can't you can't put a driveway in without a permit. You know, we already have one.

Well, we can have expand it without Yes. Right. We worked long and hard on the driveway permit. It took us two two years to get driveway regulations done. A short distance away and that's that's a whole another thing when you do that. Okay. They can put anything they want my lotially zoned. Odds are they do have room for a bigger driveway. We would need the application in to review it. Uh it's not just the expansion of the driveway, but also possible expansion of the impervious surface coverage on the lot. So there there's all sorts of different things to look at. We're not at the lake. No. [laughter] need that as a but I think the property's probably big enough to it's plenty big

I don't know why they even do that I don't need any more pavement or anything something else I want to keep it just like it is at all anybody else have any questions if not we open up the participants the public I know we have somebody online I don't know if there's Anybody in the room, do you want to take the online folks first? However, out there that want to say something. Don't. Okay. Okay. James and Ginger.

Hey, thank you for uh allowing us to join uh virtually. We are in the house across Oak Street from 93 Wetmore. And actually uh had a lot of the same sorts of questions about parking and uh I won't go over that. I did just want to ask if I could some other questions that came to mind. Is this the right format to do to that? I just want to be respectful of the process. Yes. Yeah. Go ahead.

Okay. Um and uh uh I think that I understand from the materials the um business is a landscaping business and so there's going to be mowers. Uh, I used to work years ago for one at Woods at Scots Landscaping and I know that a lot of time and energy goes into keeping those things running for repair work. Is is that going to be taking place on the premises? Any sort of repair work and and the like uh there and you know testing [clears throat] the engines and revving the engines and that sort of thing because we have young kids who are silly awakened and the like.

Well, I mean it wouldn't be any more than me mowing the lawn or anybody else mowing the lawn. If the lawn takes me two hours to mow, there's not going to be that's just me doing my own lawn. So there's I So you're not going to do the maintenance on site? Like what kind of maintenance? Like equipment maintenance? Like sharpen the blades. I would do that in my garage. Like I just you were asking. He said I mean oil changes and blades and stuff. I mean everybody does that on their own. Even homeowners.

Yeah. Oh, I I Hi, this is this is Ginger Walter. Sorry. I think we were just thinking that a a business could scale up, right, if you're very successful to need bigger equipment or more lawnmowers or bigger machines, let's say, where you might have a couple of employees who were, you know, grinding things or, you know, saws or I I don't know whatever it might be. So, we were just inquiring about what that might sound like or what your plans for expansion or equipment might be um like commercial equipment or you know something bigger.

Yeah, we're not we're not intending to to grow the business there. If if there's any expansion, it's not going to be on site. Yeah. We're not going to get any any additional equipment except a trailer which can go in the garage. Everything [snorts] else we already have.

Gotcha. Okay. And I saw in the material for this uh hearing the the there's a potential to to expand the uh the shed. I was I was a little surprised that all the equipment that it would fit in a shed unless there's a shed on the other side of the house that you can't see. But the shed that's closest to the to the um the wood fence is the one I'm picking up. You you can fit all that equipment in that shed now.

There's no because I I mean I don't even I have a I have 148 one big blower and a backpack and that all fits in the garage. The only thing in the shed is a recycling can, my garbage can, uh some cans, and some lawn furniture. If she was talking about equipment in the in the shed, it would probably just hand tools, brakes, shovels, gas cans, that type of stuff, like not actual big power equipment type things in that shed. The shed's not big enough. And I don't want Yeah. No, that's that's that sounds great. Um, so let me Are you done?

There's only one other question. if they're if they're there I it's a little hard to hear so apologies if I'm interrupting anybody but uh one other question which is um are the in the proposal for what you're uh before the zoning board to to do uh talked about deliveries is that going to be like packages or like mulch and things things of that sort for the business

I think like we just went overboard with this whatever we got here because like I'm not having m I'm not having anything delivered to the house. Anything that I do is going to go right to the whoever my customer is. If I'm getting most for a customer, it's going to have it delivered to that house. So, the only packages that we get are from Amazon or something like that. Yeah. No stone, no nothing. Nothing's coming to that house because like I say, I need all that stuff looking like crap, you know, in my house. Yeah. No, thank you. It's was a little hard to hear earlier on, so I apologize for for any redundancy with what was already covered. Jinger, that's that's all of my questions. Do you have anything else?

Yeah. Um the only other question I I was thinking about is I know even when our kids have played outside um people slow down and wonder like wave to them and traffic will back up up Oak Street and we were just we're not sure the scale of or I wasn't sure I guess you might have said so in the materials the scale or how much you're going to scale up the business if it's really successful. Would you have employees that would come and like park on the side of the road near the stop sign or how would that work? No. If we got too big, we would relocate, right? Yeah. We'd have to rent the garage, but that's not our plans. Gotcha.

And is that accurate? In other words, if they became a larger commercial operation, could they still operate under this permit at their home? No, they're not allowed to have off-site employees or not non-resident employees. They're not allowed to have and storage of materials. That's part that's part of the reason for the the the memo that they provided with all the revisions was saying wanting you to answer that for this purpose. Yeah. Uh one last question from James. If if there is any uh need for a recourse, do we come back to from a process standpoint? Do we come back and and talk to you guys or is there a different process? What what happens if you have concerns? You could see our zoning.

You come to the building. You come to our building department, the building uh inspector. Zoning enforcement officer. Yeah. The zoning the same person. I always recommend talking to your neighbor first. Yeah. Right. Right. If this is your neighbor that lives across the street, he's never there. So I talk to Mr. Dave, Mr. White Glove, the White Glove landscaping. I talked to the Allen Street people. If it's the same people that live on the on Oak Street, we we barely ever see them because they live in a different state. If this isn't the people, you can't really talk to somebody that's not there. We don't know. Oh, no. No, you're No, he's right. And we do live currently out of state, but we're considering relocating to this family home.

Yeah, we had that memo before about talk to your neighbors and I did. And you know, like I said, she says she lives in apologies. We weren't we weren't available when you might have tried. Yeah. But uh yeah, we I I don't anticipate any problem here. I just wanted to figure out the process and [clears throat] ask some questions. So, thank you for the opportunity. Okay. Uh can we say something now or it's only Sure. Okay. So on the on the stockpiling of materials, [clears throat] it's what's addressed here for storage is like equipment and uh so forth. But what about like you know piles of rock or piles of mulch or piles?

We should just say no stockpiling of landscape material on site. Okay. Put it at Py's place. Well, this letter here I saw that. But it doesn't really it doesn't go it really it's kind of a um not directly clear about landscaping materials. So that there's two pieces to that and Rrista had the regulation open in front of her and she read it. Right. It's you the idea is that it looks like a residence. It is a residence and it continues to look like that. So [clears throat] if if we started to see stockpiling of materials, there's stone getting dropped off, there's mulch, that's clearly a violation of the regulation and therefore a violation of their So without without stipulating it in the approval or making it a condition of

I don't think you have to. It's never a bad idea if the suspenders approach. Okay. Yeah. Okay. [clears throat] Well, and I would just say maybe instead of making it a condition, we make the approval upon the application and specifically reference this letter which says it doesn't say landscape materials though. It says all materials, equipment and records. Uh yeah, I know all materials. I know materials. Yeah. And you do want to think about the fact that this is a special permit. So it gets filed on the land records [clears throat] and it's on that property forever. So a hundred years from now, somebody could be running a landscape business there.

And I and I see yes, I agree. Referencing the November putting that in the approval, the November 20th letter. Uh if you if we think it covers landscape materials, I'm okay with that. [clears throat]

Does it say landscape? No, it says materials. [laughter] landscaping business. Yeah, I'm just thinking gray area for the zoning official. If it says no stockpiling instantly, it says all materials, equipment, and records will be condition of a pool. [clears throat] Well, I would like to clarify. It's not a landscaping business. It's a lawn service. Yeah, it's a lawn service. That's totally different than what you guys are thinking. Like, I'm not bringing any loaders. I don't mind. Well, you could get you could all of a sudden next year your business could explode. And then we need That's not my plan. I I'm going to take what I can get. You hope not. But [laughter]

I I've been doing it since 95. So I I know what I my plan is to do, you know, and I don't want I'm not I'm 50 years old. I'm not going to try to do crazy and heavy lifting things. I just want to ease out. Mhm. Well, you're right. Your application says our homebased lawn care business. Yeah. Which is different. It's it's the equipment sometimes is the same, but it's different. You know, it's like a landscape or uh yeah, landscape, you know, they got loaders and all this stuff for rocks and I'm not doing anything hardcaping. That's all whatever's alive. You know,

just maintenance. Mowing. Oh, yeah. Exact. Yeah. Maintenance. And I think that, you know, back to the regulation, it already, you know, it says any equipment used in association shall be customary and incidental to the residential use. You know, lawn care equipment, I think, would fall into that category. I agree. Yes. It's just I think we were Scott and I were stuck on the materials part wi without the qualifier of landscape materials but if it you you would say that encompasses that well and if they start to get large stockpiles I mean if I wanted to get a load of mulch delivered to my house

which we do right we all do I was actually going to ask them like I don't know how we all do that so but if I started to get multiple multiple. No, I think you could look at the the regulation that it's changed the residential care if the same pile sits there for more than a month. You know, that's like Well, there's homeowners that do that, too. But it's it's if it's more than what would be expected for the residential property. Okay.

And I So, I think that our regulations themselves protect against a lot of what's going on. And I think that it's pretty spelled out in this application of what they're not going to do with, you know, The trailers and equipment will be um stored on the property. They'll be stored indoors. They'll have the materials equipment [clears throat] stored. So, do you u spread fertilizer too? Do I? Yeah. I haven't at this house. [cough] I mean, on your customers, you you fertilize their lawns. Well, when I worked for uh No, your business you're talking about right now, you fertilize.

I I wasn't I'm not planning on fertilizing, but I do have a pesticide license. Okay. I have to bring another question. I could sprint if I wanted to, but it's not something worth looking into. What about if the customer wants it done, they could hire True Green or Kevlan or whoever. So, I was just like bringing up the thoughts of storing fertilizer and pesticides in the house. for your business. We got cats, we got kids, you know, antifreeze is probably the most thing that we have. But yeah, nothing nothing pesticid. So you're pretty much interested in saying, you know, all your maintenance of your your equipment is going to be done inside the garage.

Yeah. And you don't you're not going to spread pest pesticides even though you have a license. Yeah. And you don't fertilize. You just mow. blow and reback edge. [clears throat] It's all the common stuff that you get in the pesticide. That's kind of the different thing. You know, it's like you screw someone's lawn up and it's not good at all with the fertilizer.

So, we're I guess our concerns are one the cars parking on the lawn, equipment being stored outside. You're going to you're going to store it inside. Um the original plan said you were going to use the shed, but now in your letter it says you're not going to use the shed, correct? Yeah. Yeah. The shed's got garbage cans. The shed's not going to be part of your business. Yeah. So everything's going to be based out of your garage. Yeah. Just out of the garage. Anybody [clears throat] else have any concerns, comments? Peter? No. You good, Scott? Everybody's good. Charlene Rrista. Yeah.

All right. So, make a motion we close PCC 25-16 public hearing. Second. Okay. Okay. Vote on. We haven't voted. We got a vote on closing the public hearing. Any comment on closing the public hearing? No. All in favor? I yes and then we go on to PZ-25-17. So we'll move on. We have another public hearing and then we'll move on to discussion of the applications. Hang tight. We'll get 15 minutes.

We have another public hearing before we can just stay in the room. Okay, we're going to start public hearing for PC 25-17 application Paul Mitchell location 161 Metal Street Zone Town Gateway proposal special permit application for vehicles sales and service personal auto detailing

everybody. Tell us what you want to do, sir.

Okay. I representing the the business owner. I'm the builder of the building and um they're going to open a uh auto detailing facility and it's it's strictly um uh detailing cars, hand washing in the uh building and um and that's basically the service. It's very it's a very simple uh business. I wish I could dress it up a little bit more for you, but I cannot. [laughter] So, excuse me there. Um I I believe with the sales and service that was um uh not to add any confusion, but that was to fit into your pre uh design classifications that they had within the town.

So there's really no plan to sell vehicles. No. No. He has in his in his paperwork here um his mission statement. But on the page you're looking at right now, that front page, it says vehicle showroom. What does what does that mean? So they they collect cars and things like that like um they have like um like one exit they have two uh nice cars and and after they detail a car they'll take pictures of it and things like that. The building and the interior is very um overdone for a shop like the visually we've seen. Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's a gorgeous building. So that's the idea. I saw the pictures on Facebook.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I know the owner has posted a lot of stuff like that. So, um that's that's the intent. Can we have our party there? Oh, I know. The upstairs is fabulous. Yeah. Downstairs is too. So, I I think that's the intention is basically to wash a car, get it looking good inside the building and take pictures and things like that. And I suppose if if they're in that classification, if they move to to in the future, if they had to sell a car, I guess that would fall into they're allowed to, I suppose. But I'm just kind of speculating. I have to lean on Jeremy or Jeff. [clears throat] Well, yeah. Well, that's we're going to talk about that a little bit because I I have a concern about that. But this this is his time to speak, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and I I think it was um there wasn't the reason for that verbiage is there wasn't a classification for auto detailing. So, that just that was just like the closest thing that the talent officials could on that point. consider that a personal service instead of connecting it to the auto repair [clears throat] which is really kind of linked to the state permits right so there's no confusion that we're not anticipating sales and repair

I I want to look at your definition for for personal service I think that's more in line with like you know beauty salons and nail you know personal service not so much veh this is this is a vehicle service I mean the other thing that we looked at was car wash those are allowed in the zone as well also a special permit use um wouldn't it more under the car wash then I mean they are going to be washing the car

they are but there's but you know it's service as well right they're they're in there it's going to be a car wash you think of sort of driving through this is going to be employees that are there actually working on the vehicle no they're not changing oil they're not doing those types of things but they'll be you know waxing and cleaning and vacuuming and inside the vehicle. They'll be inside the engine probably cleaning up inside there as well. We had an auto detailing shop in Melissa before. Yeah, main street. The car washes do have I was going to say car washes have detailing and I think

one [clears throat] behind the car washed up. When you looked at it, Jeremy, before initially, why didn't you go with the I mean, did you find that the definition in the regs didn't encompass what for car wash? Yeah. Um, why why did we land there? We landed there because we just felt like it was a better fit because it was more of a you know, the vehicle car washes are in and out typically pretty quickly. You're you're on site, the vehicle doesn't get left there. This is going to be a situation where somebody leaves the vehicle there. So, it's more like a service shop than it is a car wash, which is, you know, you're you take your car to the car wash, you take it, you wash it, you leave.

Yeah, if I could add to that, too. Um, I think that's that's a great point. Uh, there's going to be certainly a much less volume of of vehicles in there. Whereas a car wash, like you said, you're going to have a constant turnaround where this is much different type of business where where a car may sit there for a day. It could sit there as month as much as two months. So really depending on the level of detailing that they that they do. So it's not it doesn't have as many cars sort of in and out. Not a lot of traffic. Not a lot of traffic. No. It's a very low impact business for that neighborhood as well. But I don't think that would be prevented by the car wash use. The problem is is that the the use you're going under allows this.

It does, but but the application [clears throat] is for this. And if you decide that you don't want car sales over there, you just add that as a condition of approval. I mean, you know, it'll always get tied back to whatever the application is. Okay. So, in this case, he's saying it's an auto detailing business. I'll read you the definition for car wash from your rag. It's Oh, do Thank a building and surrounding area of a lot that provides vehicle washing facilities where there is an employee on site during all hours of operation and washing and related cleaning services are not self-service and are provided by automated washing equipment including a blower or other mechanical devices and which may employ some hand labor. So it doesn't really fit because we're not talking about automated washing equipment. We're not really talking about a blower. We're talking about hand labor.

Yeah. It does not this type of business does not have any of that equipment. All the equipment is by hand, right? And like a hose and there was like approp there was appropriate um storage tank in the ground before it meets the sewer. That was all engineer. So just because I'm I'm getting educated about this using your So that means like the the car wash on North Main where you go in and do your own wash your own that's specialized. That's not just a hose. That's I don't I haven't been through that one, but I you know, most of the ones that I I always use the touchless ones because I don't want those. I mean, they have a drive-thru, but they also have stalls you can just go in, wash your own. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The spray the high pressure sprays or whatever. Right. So, that's that's not

that's kind of I would say it's probably sort of an accessory use to the car wash that got permitted, right? I mean, at some point they came in front of the commission and said, "Here's our car wash." and they had a couple of those self-service bays, but again, high traffic, high turnover, vehicle doesn't get left there. The owner stays with it, the owner does the washing, and then you drive on site. So, now to sell cars, he has to have a motor vehicle permit for that to sell. Yeah, he'd have to have a dealer's permit from the state. Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. I think that goes like uh beyond just like a town approval to sell cars. You have takes a DMV service, which is I think where I'm kind of getting on that a little bit.

Got to go to DMV to get a deal and repair [clears throat] for that. For a vehicle service, right? Then they can take that approval whether that's their plan or not. That's the approval that they've gotten to go to the state and say, "I got approval for service. I want to become a service station." Unless we condition it. Okay. That I'm going to approve service that doesn't allow service. You're defining service as car washing. I got Well, that's the problem, right? So, so what I've done in different towns, but there was a they did the rhino on the bottom and I called it a personal service.

So, it was that's why I suggested that just it was a different, you know, it was a service, but I know that's also a gray area. So, I'm not I think actually in there I think Shane had actually done that. I think she had put um sales and service and there was a there was a parenthesis that said personal on there if I recall on the on the application it when when I did it online or I maybe I can find this on here. I'm sorry. But I think what you're saying I think was actually included. I think Shane had included that on there where it was where it was uh sales and service and it was oh yeah vehicle sales and service comma personal

comma personal. Yeah. Exactly. which is the definition for that is a facility for the sale or rental of automobiles, motorcycles and pickup trucks and vans and accessories therefore included storage and incidental maintenance and repair and maintenance. So it's we're kind of going after the and repair and maintenance. It's the maintenance piece that we're we're looking at. It's not engine maintenance. We're not doing oil changes. It's just a different different wax sauce when it's done.

Right. Yeah. That requires a whole other layer of of certifications and things like that. So, if they were to do that, they would they would have to they would have to apply for all sorts of things with the DMV and they'd have to have like a certified person and all that. That's a completely different business. But from from a zoning standpoint, that was the best that these gentlemen could come up with to fit into your pre pre uh organized regulations. I think we looked at it as it is a service to a vehicle. It's vehicle service. So, how would we how would we limit it to that to the detailing? What kind of language would we use to not really find?

So, I think you're going to reference the you're going to reference the application, which I think the description says autodetailing on there, right? Yeah, it does. Many It does. Autodetailing proposed use autodetailing shop. Y [clears throat] but once they get the permit, it's not the permit. It says current use auto repair shop- which is not accurate because that place has been closed for 30 years. Yeah. The la the last use just I do have some forensic knowledge of the building. the last use was uh auto repairs and the fellow who owned it um before you know I can't vouch whether they're doing this um legitimately or not but he is a a major kind of car dealer and they had cars in there and they were working on motorcycles

but I mean it was decades ago and it was I I personally don't know well it was and it was before the current zoning rag and it's really been vacant I mean it's not been it's been vacant motors There's been no use in decades or storage. Storage, I think. Yeah. But that I I can't. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think I think um and and we can word smith it a little bit as we go, but you know, you might want to have a condition on there that's that's something along the lines of no uh um vehicle mechanical. Mechanical. Yeah, that's how you want to. Yeah. [clears throat] mechanical. No mechanical repairs allowed.

Yeah. Or servicing, right? Repairs or services or sales. And you can say that too. That could be a separate that could be a separate condition. Yeah. Very broad view here. You get a car in there. This guy does a great t great deal great job detailing it. This thing is a showroom perfect now. And then wanting to sell it. Well, a client wanted to sell it and wanted to leave it there so they could explain what they could do. I mean, it's not that they're going to sell it. They're gonna have a car there. They could possibly have a car there for sale by a [clears throat] client. Does your client envision?

Anybody could potentially do anything. I guess this facility was not built for that. And I guess one of the things I would address that, you know, the building and the way it was done and the, you know, the parking lot is very nice and I guess I don't understand necessarily the concern for not doing that because across the street you have it it that's on Main Street. This isn't a neighborhood. Well, well, I know I said in respectfully it's it's it's right before the bridge before you have like a dirt bike uh type red line building and then and then now there's there's but that's across the street on the north side of M. I understand that but it's it's

on Route 44. This is not a residential it's within eyeshot. It's I guess like my my overall point is it's an eyesot. So I'm not saying that they're that they're doing this because they're not and that's not on their business proposal. But in the event they did, I guess I don't necessarily disagree with the classification as it's not very unusual. It's not like they're selling cars out of like a front lawn or some place like on Route 44 would require someone to slam on the brakes. It's actually like, you know, in a in a

appropriately set like like uh um Willard said, if somebody were to do something like that, I don't think it would be grossly inappropriate for the area. Well, and I guess my concern is not because I don't think it's should be allowed or not allowed. I haven't even gotten that far, but just, you know, when we're giving an approval, I want to make sure that it's setting the right expectations. If we approve something for sales and service and say, but no sales or service are allowed except for, you know, it's not that was just my only concern, you know, just making that we're reviewing in a way and approving it in a way that sets the expectation for what we expect it to be used for. And if there's growth or expansion, you come back and look. We're not saying yes or no to those things, but it's not proposed. I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense to not. But we're going to say no sales or service allowed. It's not because we feel that this isn't right for sales or service or maybe we do, maybe we don't. But that's it's just because that's what the that's the proposal,

right?

So, So, we're making all these conditions to fit it into a a use category that may or may not even need to be applicable. May I ask something too? Um, is that in this gateway zone, it lists a lot of different types of unique businesses to where I I you know, and I I'm just kind of talking from what I feel is that, you know, you have a big list of of businesses that are allowed in that in that area. Like you have a brewery on that road. That's not Route 44. That's a brewery that has a very large parking lot. You have a restaurant. You have the entire road as manufacturing companies, a variety of really manufacturing companies. There's a there was a cabinet shop there. There's all sorts of bar there was a um a cotton place. I had no idea it was there. So, there's a lot of very unique businesses on Meadow Street. So, I guess, you know, not to say they're doing this and that's like a I guess a discussion amongst yourselves on the regulations, but um there's a a very vast you call it the what is it the gateway zone that's

but the rest of Meadow Street is not [clears throat] gateway. That's all been reszoned to town center residential. Only the gateway is that that little speck because that building had been there. The brewery is in is in residential area and then all the manufacturing on that road is that's on that's on Main Street and Lake uh I can tell you in a minute. But the one on the other side of the street, the north the Lake Street, the driveway is off of Lake Street. Ry's on Lake. Yeah. And then uh Sunie property that's metal. I guess my point is that I could see like a major concern if this was in like a residential area. High concentration of houses that

it is it is if you look on the zoning map that whole green strip is town center residential and you're right at the very tip of it and only because at one time that previous I mean back in I think in the 30s it was a Chevrolet dealership originally when it's in the zone but that's a hundred years ago. So, but it's in the zone and we when we changed the zones, there was a lot of contention about that. It's it got through, but um it's kind of into the residential town center resial. It's in the zone. I guess that's just you know

the brewery is in um the production and innovation zone on Lake and Meadow on that side. The other side is Town Center Residential. [clears throat] So anyway, just but I I appreciate your comment on that and yeah, I they just, you know, I understand all concerns. Nobody wants a a Nissan dealer there. So, I I I I understand like a volume of things, but I I guess it I you [clears throat] know, that wasn't my intention. It was it was mostly we didn't have a category to fit in. That's what was going off the suggestion. Just a quick note on the zoning border as well. Uh at one of our site visits two weeks ago, we suggested a fence go in to help buffer between the resial And they put that up already.

Yeah. So yeah. No. [clears throat] And you know and this we have to think about it not just from your perspect. Yes. And that is what happens tomorrow. That's just it. And so that's people change their minds too. So exactly however you have to word it the condition that might be kind of an internal thing. I can't tell you guys what to do but right but that's the best thing they could come up with for to meet the needs of this particular business. So, we could change or limit what goes on there. Yeah, you can. It's a special permit. So,

I wouldn't want to stop some customer from selling a car at the detailing shop because a detailer would be better able to represent the car. I wouldn't want to see commercial car sales there, which requires a DMV permit. But if he was selling an owner's car, can you say incidental sales or does that make it murkier? I think that you still get into the Yeah. the licensing even have a display area. Yeah. How could he sell any car there from there? Well, you could you could Well, it' be a private party between the [clears throat] customers. The owner of the property is not involved with it.

The business wouldn't be selling the property. [clears throat] No, that's not their intention from anything I've gathered from them and not on paper. Yeah, but if they need to sell one or two cars, right, after [clears throat] they clean it up, I mean, yeah. Well, that's kind of like when the u the shop down on Route 800 came in that does all the tuning on the cars. He said he might have a customer's car there couple three times a year to sell and we approved that. But he's also getting a DMV license. He had a repairs license. So, yeah. So, [clears throat]

And and again, I'm not saying that I wouldn't approve a dealers and repairs license on this. That's not what's being requested or asked of us. So, we're going to approve what's being requested and we're going to try to put all these conditions on this to fit them into what they're asking for and maybe take the conditions off later. I mean, there's a pretty much a residential area down that end until you go across the river, then it changes. [clears throat] But there's there's houses on both sides of, you know, stuff basically. Uh,

I mean, you've done owner's done a lovely job on the building. It's an asset to the area. Being a detailing shop fits in. I don't know what it's going to do upstairs, but No, I don't. the detailing shop fits in good for, you know, not too intrusive and everything in my view point. And that I might add to right now it only has an occupancy of 14 people for the upstairs. So if that were to ever change, they would have to do they would have to uh add sprinklers and things like that. So So it's not like that that can like rapidly change where there could be 100 people in there and 100 cars. That's that's not the case. It's set up for a very small amount of people. And I think Well,

not to speculate on their on their um how many people they'd have at one time, but I just think they're they're limited to a smaller amount, a smaller crowds and things. It's it's a lower impact lower impact area. It's not like it can't invite 300 people. Not that I think that'd be very impractical, like a car wash, for example. There's no there could be a line going down Route 8 for all we know. So, on their letter, it says upstairs waiting area for customers who want to wait for their service. with have a kitchen and big screen TV. Well, that's it. Yeah. So, Vanessa's for the owners. I think it's Yeah, I think that's more if you go to Zeller Tire and you sit there, they got all that.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, it's pretty customary. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, back to the cars for sale. I don't see why he couldn't have one or two if private person came in as well. Aren't I mean it sounds like there are state laws and DMV laws that if he was to sell them if it was a customer's car that the customer was going to be signing the documentation and all that if it helps him stay in business one or two I don't think would hurt. It's a very nice build and he did a nice job on it. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm saying no argument there.

I don't I don't want the fact that we're saying no no no sales. I don't want that to limit him selling a customer's car that they just detailed. back to brand new and customer says, "Hey, can you sell this for me now?" Yeah, it's very possible. I mean, I and I think Well, it's probably it could I see it as being very possible. Yeah, it could happen. I mean, I guess that's the same as someone doing on their front lawn, too. Yeah. Basically, people private party sale and you go to the detailing shop and detailing shop says what you did with it. Yeah. and and just in for future use. I'm not sure that that building is necessarily set up to be

um I don't think you can logistically, you know, put a a large car dealership there. It doesn't have it would require Yeah, it would require a whole uh Yeah, another another Yeah, they'd have to And I But we had Gateway Auto right across this river there that had three or four cars at one time and that was it. So,

but So, would you say no retail? It wouldn't be a retail sales place then. It'd be in it'd be incidental to you know a customer saying my you know it's not even it's not even regulated then if it's just a customer sale you say but we but the uh the uh reggg allows service and sales. So, if we're saying we're only we're limiting it to autodetailing with no vehicle servicing or maintenance or retail sales. Yeah. No retail sales or mechanical repairs of vehicles. Period. Retail sales of automobiles. Retail sales of vehicles. Right.

I think the key word there would be mechanical. And that would that and that's a big part comes in. If you're if you're working mechanical sale, it can happen. It's just retail sales. What if we just said a special permit for vehicle service auto detailing only? So then we're just not saying none of the but we're just saying vehicle service auto detail. He's saying it in the positive. Yes. But under vehicle service it could be repairs, oil changes, tires. Vehicle service auto detail only. Okay. Yep. Okay. What do you think? That's a clean way to put it

and then that way we don't have all these negative conditions that can't be changed. Okay. And if there's a business plan or some kind of a letter that explains the application, I would refer to that in in the motion. vehicle service. [clears throat]

Well, if you say vehicle service, what? Well, that's the that's the category we're provider. We're saying that it's a vehicle service. So, if we're going to go with that method, we have to say um her letter from N River Detailing. And I know I'm starting Yeah. 10 9 25 10 9 25 Then it lists the services offered. Yeah, I kind of looked at the Yeah,

talking about their Christmas party on the second floor. I see that. Trying to find the right We're having the car wash versus service debate over here. But say service, auto detailing, and we reference this letter. It lists I think that's the thing to do. That's right. Because it's still it is an auto service. It is a vehicle service. It is not what you would typically think of, right? You think of an auto service, you're brakes, tires, you know, all that stuff, but it is a vehicle service. It's the same concept. You're bringing your car in, you're leaving it in a bay, somebody's doing work to it, you're picking it up later in the day. Spelled out auto. Is that Isn't it just a fancy car wash, though? Yeah. But because of our definition, the our definition is limited.

Yeah. Our definition should include auto detailing. So, when we're doing these updates, we'll we'll talk about Mark that down, right? We'll put that in discussion. The guy just wants to make a nice building. We told Paul, "This shouldn't be too big of a deal. This should be a pretty easy, but but he understands. I mean, we're really slicing it." Yeah. No, I I think like one of And maybe I'm not remembering what you said, but with the um where car wash it had auto automatic equipment, right? Whereas this doesn't have automatic equipment like you're not coming in and it's doing a bunch of things like where this is more this. Yes. It's hand It's hand work. Yeah, it's hand work. Yeah, there's not there's not big equipment that people kind of My stepson used to do that. So, yeah. Yeah. Years ago. So, I I I know.

But I think Rrista's got the right idea. We have a business plan. It's part of the application. We refer to that letter or that statement. Use the date and vehicle servicing uh auto detailing only. Any changes to that require a modification of the special purpose. That's all. Right. So if they want to come in and do vehicle sales in five years and they come in and they modify their commission permit, that's all.

All right, everybody good? Yep. Public. Everybody good? Yep. Okay. Anybody in the public that wants to speak to this issue? Seeing none, make a motion to close PCC 25-17. Second. All in favor? I Okay. So, do we have draft motions? We do. I'm going to put them up on the screen so that we can uh play play with them a little bit. You guys all set with me? Well, if you want to hang out, we'll make a decision.

Oh, you can sit. Yeah. We've got we've got to go go through the previous one first and then yours will be next. So, Okay. So, we're go off to new uh old business. BZ-25-16. Applicant Elizabeth Durham. Location 93 Wetmore Avenue zone TSF proposal special permit application for a home occupation section 415-45. All right. Any discussion? expect that

I can read it to you if you want. So the the current motion states

I can move I can make I can make a motion to approve application 25-616 special permit applicant Elizabeth Durham 93 Wetmore Avenue special permit application for home occupation one in evaluating this application planning and drone commission has relied upon information provided by the applicant and if such information subsequently proves to be false deceptive incomplete and or inaccurate this permit shall be modified suspended or revoked two this application is consist consistent with the town's plan of conservation and development. Three, this application meets the criteria and standards of section 415-24D, special permits, special exceptions. Four, the business shall be operated in accordance with the modification shown in a letter from Elizabeth and Dwayne Durham dated November 20th, 2025.

That number four is just me sitting over here as we were discussing kind I can read. Go ahead. Um, you're going to read the whole thing? No. Additional conditions. No cars or equipment to be parked on the lawn on lawn area. No storage of pesticides or fertilizers or other landscape materials for business use on property. All maintenance of equipment to be conducted inside garage. I didn't keep up with you, but I'll I'll get up. I'll get it. Somebody's got a second Jeremy on this draft motion

where it says special permit application for home occup lawn care business. Uh, sure. So it's clear. [clears throat] And does this reference the letter made? Yes. Forward. I seconded that. Whoever keeping track of that. so we can discuss it. [clears throat] All right. Any discussion? Uh, well, I I want those things in. Oh, you wrote it down. I'm literally keep going. Yeah, he's described. I I got it. Jeff gets to sit there. Okay.

I I would ask since we're doing this on the fly tonight, we don't have a paper version that when we do the vote, just do it as a roll call if you wouldn't mind. Yeah. Okay. Do you have the ability to print that off where it can be signed by us tonight? Um, here. I No, I don't. But we can I can get it. I didn't know if you wanted the signed version. We don't need it. I think that's why I wanted to do it. It was a roll call vote. Yeah. Okay. [clears throat] So, no further discussion. So, that landscaping material is that landscaping stockpile materials. Did you want to add it in there? No storage of pesticides, fertilizer or other landscaping materials for for business use and appropriate

stored on property. [clears throat] Does that does that cover it, Scott? Yeah, it should. What you're thinking? Yeah. You all set? Good. All right. No further discussion. All in favor? You got to do a roll call. I can do a roll call. Yep. Start with Jan. Yes. Yes. You can say your name. Jan Perry. Yes. Peter Marshian. Yes. Lauren Plant. Yes.

Charlene Lavoy. Yes. Rrista Malano. Yes. You got it. [clears throat] Good luck. Thanks for your time. Happy. [clears throat] All right. Under old business PZ-25-17 applicant Paul Mitchell location 161 Meadow Street zone TG proposal special permit application for vehicle sales and service personal auto detailing and motion

draft motion make a motion

you want me to read I can read it from here I'll Motion to approve application 25-17 special permit applicant Paul Mitchell address 161 Meadow Street proposal special permit application for vehicle sales and service personal auto detailing one evaluating this application of planning and zoning commission has relied upon information provided by the applicant and if such information subsequently proves to be false deceptive incomplete and inaccurate this shall be modified suspended or revoked two this application is consistent with the town's of conservation development. Three, this application meets the criteria and standards of section 415-24D, special permits, special exceptions.

And then having the auto detailing there limited to what we just discussed. Well, where is that going to be said? So, I think it's Well, it says special permit for vehicle and service personal auto detailing. Well, so we change the application for vehicle service of sales, right? Sales should be removed. Well, well, that's the provision under the the regs that you're that it's being considered, correct? And there should be a condition at the bottom, right? Bristol should be number four, right?

All right. So, be approved for vehicle service. Servicing service servicing vehicle servicing service. That's what the use is, right? How about approved for auto? It only says auto detailing shop. Oh, in there. So vehicle service auto detailing only services detailed and letter dated 1092 right it's detailed

got it October 9th 2025 Did we get a second on that? Second. We'll do a roll call vote on this one, too, please. No, we're good. So, any further discussion on this? We're all good with this? All right. All in favor? Roll call. Chan Perry. Yes.

Peter Marshian. Yes. Platt. Yes. Charlene Lavoy. Yes. M. Yes. Good luck. Thank you so much. It looks nice. When's the grand opening? You have to ask them. I think I'll I'll ask them. And I think coming soon. I think people can go. I know. [laughter] Wait a minute. Is that per the fire marshall? Yes. We'll do it as shifts. I'll have to talk to him. It needs to be modified. [laughter] Thanks a lot.

Okay. Okay. Now we're on to number six. New business PZ C-25-18. Applicant Geraldine Anne Bowen. Location 24 Center Street Zone TC. proposed application for special permit for mixeduse building and we're just receiving this tonight. Yep. Acceptance schedule here. So,

we're only accepting the application tonight. I know where it's clear. Shane said I should show up. So and it'd be quick not [laughter] he meant your part. So it's it's our first meeting. It's so Rrista asked for clarification. So that the application is to take essentially four right.

Yes. So the building when I bought it in I can't remember like 2002 like 20ome years ago it was four units. It was all residential. At that time my business uh bone agency insurance agency was in Torington. I wanted to move it to Winstead. So I came and changed the building again not knowing what I was doing to commercial because I was going to be running agency out of it for a number of years off and on the upstairs. So it's still four chunks. The downstairs is still [clears throat] um my husband's business in the agency. the upstairs for a while. I did have CPAs that were up there that rented it. So, it was used commercially. Haven't had anybody up there for ages. And there really isn't any need

um you want to small for small business. It's a house. It's a beautiful house. But I but to make it mixed use so that the two upstairs units could be made the small the three room small apartments at this point probably would only um uh be running out the one above the agency on the 26 side and I think tomorrow morning fire marshall they're coming tomorrow morning at 8:30 they see my husband because there um but it's basically set up as I mean there were CPA so It's got a like kitchenet, stove, refrigerator. It's basically six apartment.

The original building still h has two. So, it's got front stairs and has it own each of the we'll go over all this during the public hearing. Yeah. I mean, it fits into the plan for back there. It does. It's It's town center zone. It's It's allowed. It's a Yeah. I mean it's it's actually going to a use that we will be switching from special permit to site plan per the discussion at our last meeting. So I'll make a motion to accept schedule accept the application from Derl uh PZC2-18 and have a public hearing scheduled for December 8th at 7 p.m. here at town hall.

Second. Can you do December 8th? December 8th. Excuse me. 15 days between now and December 8th. That's our first meeting. It is. I just want to make sure the timeline works. Is it 15 eight? No. No, it's not. So, so go. Yeah, it's go the second meeting in de in December, which I know is she had Yeah, she said it was 22nd. We'll move it to the 22nd. I'll change my motion to the 22nd. I'll second it. And then she said she would help me with the notification, all that stuff. the notification. I forgot about that. Yes. All in favor?

See you then, Ann. Thank you very much. Okay. Item B. PZC-25-16 Clifford Traveling location 85 898 and 920 Main Street Zone TG. site plan application for a restaurant and retail small shop. Actually, we're just accepting these, so you don't really have to say too much. Well, it's fun to watch. Anyway, this is this is a site plan, so you could act on it tonight if you want to. I mean, I think it's worth having the conversation.

Isn't that also part of uh they're doing some um boundary line adjustment in that? They are, but that you don't have to act on that part of it. That's a the boundary boundary line adjustment. Is there anything needed with wetlands on this? Because the borders are brook everything they're looking at. It will need um I don't think we should take any action on it till the wetlands approval. So it's kind of like future uses that will not have an effect to not even look where the stage and correct that's within wetlands areas. So, we're not we're not going to deal with the uh patio and the over the book or anything.

No, that's what future that'll be modification later. It is. I think I called it out in my staff report that you know we we asked the applicant to put everything on the plan so that the commission is aware of kind of the direction that he wants to go with this operation. Um, but there are certain things that are called out on the plan as future. And so in any approval, I think what we'd want to do is reference those future items and say that he needs to come back for modification to his approval for those things. But we wanted to give you the the the overall concept.

So what's your time over? So my question is uh is this Molly's Molly Quinn? Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the same. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm just locating it. Yeah. And then it was a Red Rooster after that. Yeah. Oh, right. Well, I go way back. I saw you smile. [laughter] No, I know. Me, too. We all been there. Most of us probably when do you plan to go to um well future uses of plan for

it would be what? No no no no it would be like a year two years down the road. This is all just future things that I might want to do. So like initially just opening it's a roadside outside ery type thing. just getting that open down the road would be uh putting a foot bridge across the property and then possibly a pavilion. These are all just like is that this? No, that's part of the landscaping on the that would be greener. I just see I just see a bridge there white drew that part. So where it says proposed white stone gravel outdoor seating and dining area that's

no that that that would be the part of what we're approving. Yeah, that would be and it's all disturbed area now. It's all sort of compact. No. Uh I don't know the stage the stage is on the inside of the fence. It does say it does say on the hand, but it's also on the I would go based on the handprint. That was just to kind of give you the timeline of your stage. Oh, timeline. Yeah, that would be in the spring. But as of right now, it's also on the interior of the fence line that's already existing there. I mean I I think we should have at least have some dimensions sizes at that stage and at some point the proposed entertainment area are you making it a natural stage or you just have

Yeah, it would be like a would it be a permanent structure would be just like a temporary structure that we could actually move. It may be something, you know, as big as this carpet right here. You know, if you just want to have somebody playing is not a problem. I mean, that's in our regulations. That's that's an approval thing. I'm just concerned about the stage size and and location. It wouldn't be that big. It would be relatively small. Probably scaling to about 10 by 10 on that plan. I would say just just I didn't give him a specific size, so that's probably why we have that. I definitely do. You br your ruler with it? She did. Yep. There it is. She's a planner. I know. No kidding.

Six inch guy that I travel with, too. [laughter] Your pocket ruler. So it's showing us it says yeah 10 by 10 by 10. So we proved it for a maximum size of 12 by 12 is what I'm saying just so that we do some type of a size maximum. So you're saying that the the patio this whole area is disturbed not doesn't need a wetlands permit or you're going to approve it as an agent or something along those lines.

Well, it is already disturbed. It's basically it's all parking area now. I think it's just going to be a nicer looking parking area situation, but it can certainly be an agent determination. I was just going to say is that probably be agent determination because they're not disturbing anything near the brook where need to go to wetlands but minimal until you start going across the brook right so the stage the structure whatever it becomes would be the the primary thing that would need a permit and that could be and it would probably would be an agent yeah and there's nothing there's nothing way back here this proposed that's if if I may like the stage proposed area there is further away from the river

than that grass area that's already there existing so well So anything that is regulated by the wetlands commission structure yeah any so we can't approve it before the wetland commission approves it so that's why we're asking those questions but if Jeff is telling us that he can do an agent determination is going to do or maybe already has um done an agent determination on on this then we can approve it tonight if we have to wait for that wetland approval we wouldn't be able to approve tonight. That's why we're just asking those questions. So, I think

Well, it has not been approved yet. Uh, so we would need to by me, right? It would need to the application need to come in and just do my my quick check. I mean, I'm familiar with the project. We've met multiple times. I had no concerns. It's all Yeah, it's all it's basically all impervious surface now anyway. [clears throat] So, and this uses is almost exactly what was there for the most part. So Jeremy, do you have any type of of an approval drawn up? No, I don't. Okay. Because I not So you know, we could do it as a conditional approval pending wetlands. Yeah, you could. Determination. Yeah, absolutely you could. Y something like that. Y

you just have to come [clears throat] up. Okay. Or I mean the other option, Peter, is you could you could have that happen and continue at two weeks till your next meeting and then we can type up a we can have a draft motion for you ready then if you want to do it that I don't know if that throws you off but I'm just going to do it as agent. You're going to do an agent determination of that? Yeah, based on this level of non-disturbance on a previously disturbed area. This is going to be a a stage. Um that's like a groundbased deck, nonmounted or something. Well, he said it was portable. It's just

it's not going to be attached to anything that we can take it back in. Yeah. Putting pilings inact. So that's really not much. Uh yeah, it's not going to be affect structures. What I'm saying? So, you're saying we should should approve the site plan? And you can you can go one of two ways. We don't have a draft motion for it typed up. So, if you want a draft motion to work off from, then I would suggest continuing this to your next meeting on December 8th or whatever the date is. This is our first meeting. We'll get you a typed up motion. Griff can come in and do the agent approval with Jeff so that that part of it's done. You don't have to worry about the condition. And then

I think that would be that neater and cleaner for everyone really. I think that's fine. Okay. You good with that? So I'll make a motion we No. No. No public hearing. I'll make a motion that we continue PCC 2519 to December 8th meeting. Second. All in favor? I will say the eight. All right. Appreciate it. Thank you. When's it when's it opening? Uh, when you get back from Florida. I need to get out. When you get back from [laughter] Florida, it's actually going to be a really cool vibe and everything

in spring, early spring. So, when it's going to be weather dictating what it's going to be. So, we'll have it all figured out. What's it What's the name of it? Uh, Skippers after my late father. Oh, yeah. Yep. Of course. Excellent. Yep. Doing well. All right. Have a great day. Take care. Okay, now we're on to number seven. Other business 2026 meeting schedule should have a copy of it there in your packet, I think. Yeah, somewhere here.

Sticking with the same schedule. Um, second and fourth Mondays. The three holidays that exist on Mondays, we're just proposing no meetings on those. I'll make a motion we accept the 2026 meeting schedule calendar for planning and zoning commission. I'll second it. All in favor? I I have a question. Don't we only usually meet once? Is it July or August? Do we meet twice [clears throat] both those months? Yeah, there's only one in July. Yeah. When one in August? There's only one in July. One in September. No, there's two. There's two in Oh, yes. Okay. There is two in July. our first

you you get you get December off because I figured you probably didn't want to have a meeting between Christmas Day and New Year's Day. So we

Okay, then item B, affordable housing count.

So this was a conversation that the chairman and I had last week, I think it was last week, and he asked what our affordable housing units were or what what our count was. In my staff report, I referenced that each year the Department of Housing publishes the affordable housing appeals list and that's where your percentage that's tied to the 830G statute comes from. So right now uh Winchester is sitting at 9.77% affordable uh consisting of 269 government assisted units. So those are uh HUD assisted units like the housing authority operates, those types of units. Uh tenant rental assistance, there's 137 of those. So those are uh section 8 vouchers primarily. Um and then Chaffa and USDA mortgages. There's 122 of those. You don't have any deed restricted units uh as of right now. So um you know the Chaffa and USDA mortgages of course could disappear. That number could go down. Um but it looks like you've been pretty consistent right around that 9 and a half% mark.

Past years we've been right around 10% less. Except that year we were like between 12 and 13%. Yeah. So you pro that was probably a lot of chaff in USDA. Yeah. I think that was when Danny Drive and that area was under that. Um and none of these include stuff that we've approved like the hospital project or the bachelor school project. So they don't include anything that's been approved. Yeah. So [clears throat] in reality if those are bill or when they're built, this number could rise up. Yes. Yep. Okay. So we're we're sitting pretty good. You are good. really compared to other sounds and cities. Y

okay. Item C, update to zoning regulation. Just wanted to keep it on the agenda. I don't have any language for you to look at tonight. It's mostly prepared and I'll have it for you on the 8th so that we can have a real conversation. Um I'm also going to go through the housing bill that was recently passed. I don't think the governor's actually signed it yet, has he? No. No.

But yeah, but we have a public act number as of today. Uh it's 25-1. So um by then maybe it'll have the governor's signature. I'm not sure. He says he's going to sign it. So I'll go through that and um any changes the regs that are going to be required quickly before a lot of it comes into effect July 1st. So we want to make sure that we incorporate most of that stuff. Some of those things you already are doing. Um you know, we're talking about making mixed uses on Main Street. Um a site plan use versus special permit. That's one of the things that the that the legislation talks about. So, we'll I'll run through that and and make sure that we're we're okay. Parking is one of the things that we'll have to look at. You already don't require off- streetet parking in Town Center, so we're good there. That I don't think we're going to need to make a lot of changes for this.

I from what some gists that I had read. Yeah. Pretty minimal impact. Did you get the one I sent you for the subdivision for the Sistns? Oh, yeah. Yes. And we'll put that in there, too. I I looked at John's. John and I went through the whole thing and he coming from Torington, he's used to ordinances and I explained to him though it's going to be a regulation and it's easier for us to do that than going through an ordinance. It's short and and sweet. So, this would be something that we could easily do. So,

yeah, we'll have that. I my goal is for for some of the I'll call them lowhanging fruit items that we talked about a couple of weeks ago. What I'd like to do is get them in front of you next next meeting two weeks from now, have a conversation, make sure that we're content with the language, and then maybe get them scheduled for a public hearing in in early January. Yeah. Yeah. And if you could use the structural plan, I know there's a couple projects coming up that would really be very helpful. That's one of the lowhanging fruit ones that I that I'm thinking. Yeah, because I mean I it was it seemed like a consensus that everybody was Okay, sounds good.

So, I have a question. Back when we did the codification of the going regulations, we were all told we were going to get a new updated zoning manual and maps and maps and maps. Didn't we give you maps? I don't know. Didn't we I think we printed out and gave you maps. You mean these? These? No, that's the wrong color. So, that's not it. Okay. That's the one I've been looking at. I don't remember the one with the new colors. I I remember them on the screens. We looked at them. Rrista's got hers. Okay. So, I don't know where yours is, Peter. Probably in my briefcase. [laughter] Probably. I'll have to got to go through the paperwork. I I think that you know internally we talked about

Well, I don't know if this is the most updated one. Let me see. We we talked about um you know printing out and I think I thought that was part of the the deal with the the specifications because you told us once we approved that we would get new. So the uh part of the contract is they they provided us with two paper copies at I forget the exact cost but quite a premium. Uh so much so that I reached back out to make sure that we no longer were going to get paper copies from them. It was like 1,300 bucks or something for this. Exactly. Uh so that printing will be done in house. Um if you're dead set that you want paper copies. No, I just remember them saying that we were going to get them.

Yeah. And I thought everybody everybody was going to get one. No, just two. One in the clerk's office and one in the Okay. And I just want was wondering where they were. Yeah. Even if you emailed it to me, I would I would print. I know at one time it was put off because we were updating the zoning regulations so they weren't going to be printed, right? And it just came across that each individual member was going to get one. I mean, I like a paper copy. It's good to work with the meetings and stuff. Yeah, cuz it's tough. Quick show of hands. Everyone want a paper copy? Well, it it sits, right? Can Can we Can we Can we wait to give you the paper copy until after this next round of changes that we're going to make, which is going to be pretty Well, hopefully February 1st, I want a printed

paper copy of the regs of the new Rex. All right. But it might not might not have everything in it. That's the issue. Yeah. Okay. We'll give you March 1. All right. Cuz we were talking this in July. I know. But but we've made a bunch of changes. Another year. I know. I'm not waiting another year for it. Well, I think I think the the um thing to me when we're sitting here regulations are five years old. And if I had an iPad that was available, we could scroll. That's really what we need. But short of that, a paper copy would work for us. But I think I think he has a permission put access to um both information to the reg applications.

That's the easy part. I know [laughter] it's the money to pay for them. That's the hard part. We were we were having an internal discussion today too about I mean with all the technology that they've set up in here it's just another little step to get screens on the deis for you all too rather than crane in your neck looking at the big screen trying to read but just the distance difficult to see without seeing it behind it. Yeah they're like he could read this I can read it with my glasses but without them forget it right but the other two know. So all right well we'll we'll get you printed copies. I will put a reminder in my calendar that the drop dead date is 3126 regardless of where we stand in the updates. So if they're gonna be printed in house

or you're going to go to like Staples or Boule or something else we're going to make these updates when do you think you're going to have them to Well, they generally speaking I get them into general code either the next day or a couple days later and then whatever your effective date is and then they update quarterly. So they roll it into the they roll it into the the codified REGG quarterly, but don't forget that there's a section that says recently updated, but it say January, February, March. So they won't be updated till say April. Well, that's what I was getting at. But Peter said he wanted his by March 1st. So if you're going to tell me they'll have it ready for April, I'll delay it till April. I guess my point [laughter] would be

But not them anymore. I mean, I know it's paper, but not all that much paper to print them out and then change regulations, swap the sections. Swap the sections and then in April or May or June when we're done, we'll just get a new section. Yeah. I mean, if we if we change things after that, we can just change the page here and there because the section numbers don't match what we have now. Nothing's, you know, these are still these are from 2022. Yeah, those Yeah, you're right. All right. So, if we got new sections and then as we move along and then in the second quadrant when they're all updated Yeah. Okay. That's right.

So, so why don't we why don't we hold off on printing until the the next batch of changes is made and then we'll print everything. But the next batch will be in No, but what I'm saying is we could we could we could print off everything including the changes that we make hopefully in January. Get all that to you. That should give them enough time by April 1 so that they can have it notified. Right. Right. in fact you so okay we don't have much coming up between now and January okay all right we'll work on that because I mean like what we're talking about with the subdivision regulations all we need to do is just those two pages it's two pages no that's just to add to it

all right item eight approval of minutes I make a motion to approve the November 10th 2025 regular meeting minutes I'll second All in favor? I I and then communications. I see we have our new selectman. Welcome. Uh Lea here. Would you like to say anything to us or a pleasure to be here and uh thank you for everything and I am assigned as the leaison for I'll be here most of the time.

Oh, we're glad to have glad to have you. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, no communications from Okay, I make a motion to adjourn the meeting. Second. All in favor? Not bad. 8:35. 8:30. Good. Did pretty good job, everybody. Okay, let's see. Second approval.

I did. I tell Shane I said thank you for unpackaging this again cuz she she had packaged it turn to Amazon. I came in here it's like a can I get that little extension? No, I packed I packed it up. I packed it up. I said, "Okay, don't worry about it." And then I came in and it was yours. Yeah. Tell her I said thank you. I'm repackaging. Yes. Happy Thanksgiving everybody. You're on.