City Council - Regular Meeting

I will call to order this special winners city council meeting. We will start uh with the pledge of allegiance. Um and I will leave that deputy mayor is uh online. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Um I will now move on to agenda review. Um, members of council, do you have any uh concerns or something you'd like to address about tonight's agenda? No. No. Deputy mayor.

Okay. I'm wondering if you want to ask for comment in case it's not that um that public comment is related to the armory. Correct. Yeah. And sorry, I forgot to pull up the Zoom. Is there anybody on the line?

No. Okay. I'll throw you off when we go here. Okay. Seeing no public comments. Sorry. Seeing no agenda review items. Uh we'll move on to public comment. Uh public comment uh in this section for items that are not on included in the agenda. Uh we will call for public comment later during those items. So if there's anything that you would like to talk uh about that is not on the agenda, now is your time. I know that you're here for something on the agenda. All right. In that case, we'll move on to our first item of the night, uh, which is a proposed executive session. Uh, so pursuant to 1 VSA 313A2 for the purpose of negotiating or securing a real estate purchase option for 111 Weaver Street to be used as a dwelling and limited office space for a fire department. Um, I would call into this meeting our city manager, fire chief, John Audi, um, Angela, I can never remember your your title, finance director,

John Spittle, and John Spittle. Seek a motion for that executive session. So, seconded. All those in favor? I. Wonderful. That moves. We will now move into executive session. Um I'm just trying to think if we should move or if I should ask you to go set up the better for the folks online.

Okay. Okay. So we'll move into the executive session to discuss uh what was warned. Uh no other items and then we'll come out with our executive session uh for public discussion. Um we are moving into executive session at the moment. So I'll just ask you to wait outside please. Um and we will let you know once we are done with the executive session. You can come back in. Check. Check. One, two, one, two. Okay, you're all set. Wonderful. Thanks, Paul. Thank you.

All right. Uh, so we will now move on to our next item. Um, our regular item six discussion approval to authorize use of fund balance to purchase real estate. Um, guess it's yours to start. We did just talk about it, but uh uh just Okay, sure. Uh John, Audi, are you on? Friends raising their hand.

Oh, I don't see him on their hospital. Just waiting for the fire chief to join. There it is. All right. Um, so John, I was saying we are on regular item six, discussion approval to authorize use of fund balance to purchase real estate. if you want to give an intro.

Sorry, mayor. I missed part of that. It's just the intro for our for our item.

Uh for 111, just a brief what we're doing. Um so the purpose of 111 purchase the property is to provide um the sleeping quarters um to um help um have some tools to address um staff shortages um specifically in the on call um realm of of staffing um for folks that live further than five minutes from the station. um is again just putting more tools in our toolbox as as far as being able to address uh mainly staff shortages.

Wonderful. Thank you, John. Um definitely a worthwhile cause in my opinion. Uh we have heard uh for many years the difficulties in retention and recruitment and uh this council and past councils have referenced many times our uh desires to help the police chief in making sure that we have remain to have fire coverage and protection um in the city. Um, I completely understand this item. Um, it's something if we do approve it that we want to make sure that we are communicating it out to the community as much as we can. Um, so I'd encourage um the police chief, sorry, the fire chief uh with our communications director and um I through my role as mayor and happy to assist in communication through local news sources as well as our um social media uh posts if if possible. Um I can envision many things, videos, interviews. Um, but I think it would be important to talk about why this is so important to our uh community. Uh, council, I'll I'll let you add or ask any questions.

I think one of the other things that I would highlight just from what I've heard over the past four years is that we have folks who would be interested and excited to serve our community, but they currently live outside of this five minutes or more away. So they can't safely come and support us. So being able to offer this ability to have sleeping quarters will help with not just yeah with that recruitment which it sounds like there are people who would again would want to work for us. And that that to me is really really exciting. uh especially when we're in this time where both fire um and police can be really hard to do that recruitment. If there are people out there wanting to do it, let's let's help let's help them help us um and also be better able to serve our growing brand list.

So, uh I've got two counselors online as well. Um councelor Goodrich or deputy mayor, anything you'd like to add? Deputy mayor, go ahead.

Yeah. Um, I do want to appreciate the chief and staff of thinking of a creative way to meet our needs. Um, you know, I think the budget, for anybody that followed the budget process, we had a number of needs and, um, and this was presented as one of them. Um, and just is a is an opportunity that feels like it it can't be missed. Um, looking at, you know, a hotel that's coming online um, this summer. um additional housing projects going up. Um you know, the need for uh uh convenient location for accommodations is is pretty significant. So, I think anything we can do to facilitate that um while keeping cost down, overall cost down for our uh residents is really appreciated. So, thanks for that.

Thank you, Bren El. I just but I just wanted to echo what uh councelor Herd said and also just the idea that this is truly an investment in our future and in our safety. Um I think some people might, you know, see it as an expense, which most certainly it is. Money is involved. Um but I think that we're being the fire chief and the fire department and obviously the city staff as well are being incredibly thoughtful about how this investment is being made and so I'm just really really grateful both as a resident and as a member of the community.

Thank you, Council Rich. And I'll echo all of that and thank staff for the um time that put put into this. Um it's definitely a creative solution that we all appreciate at a very great moment. So thank you. Thank you counselors. Um is there any public comment on this item? Uh sir, if you can approach the table and if you can state your name. Sure. And I'll just have to we don't have a recording today. So this is what you're talking at. You can stay seated or Yeah, sure. Why not? The mic is there. Yeah. Yeah, that that work.

So, yeah, Mark Leau, I just saw the email that went out about three and a half hours ago about the meeting. So, I didn't really have time to do any research on it. Didn't know this was an issue. So, I guess my first uh talking point would be how long has this timeline gone on? I mean, obviously from the chief's comment, there's been a problem. People made uh illusions to the fact that recruitment has been an issue for a number of years, but this specific methodology to address it, how long is people have people been considering either purchasing a property or putting two bunks in a firehouse? I mean, my experience as a police officer for a number of years in the military, you know, you get paid to pull a shift. You know, in theory, you could be awake that entire 12-h hour shift. Again, it's probably beneficial as a recruitment tool to be able to say, "Okay, yeah, you're we're paying you for 12 hours, but you know, if that all you get to sleep for your 12 hours." Um, I'm assuming somebody's looked at, you know, why can't we just throw four bunks in, you know, the town shed or any other place that we we own property that could easily be converted. You know, I get that a house you can buy it for whatever half a million dollars, I'm guessing, after you renovate it. And then there's going to be the cost of upkeep, you know, for what exactly? You know, a, you know, comment. Well, we've got a couple people who have expressed interest in maybe coming to work for Wooki. Okay. Well, I mean, I think we all know that it's difficult to become a firefighter. You have to pass physical fitness tests. There's probably drug tests, etc. So, it just sounds like we're pushing hard to, you know, purchase and renovate something. And I didn't see the cost, but I'm just guessing. I haven't seen any property in Muski for under

$300,000. So, let's say on cheap, $300,000, $100,000 to renovate it. And then, you know, years of upkeep on the no promise, no guarantee that we even have a candidate who would come in to move. And I'm sure if I'm assuming there's been a discussion, okay, we we've now bought this house. Um what we really need is a bedroom

um and a toilet. Uh we're going to use the rest of the house for something else. I'm assuming I'm just I'm asking, you know, I just again I've had zero time to research this. I just saw the email. My wife is like, "Stop complaining. Go over the city hall." So So here I am. I I just and sympath you know having been a police officer I'm you know somewhat sympathetic to the firefighters just because of you know haven't done the same job but you know I get the the pain that it can be doing it and the certainly the risk much more dangerous going into a burning building than it is you know sitting in a cruiser sometimes. So so you know I'm not anti

doing something for the fire department. I just am interested to see what the timeline was and if you know anybody's really looked at any any of the alternatives, you know. Yeah. You know, so yeah, I I appreciate Well, thank you for coming down. We we I prefer to have people in those seats than not have people in those seats. So, the mic is here.

Yeah. No, no, I just meant coming down to to witness what we're doing in the in the room, but um um I I'll let the chief respond to a lot of that and and maybe the HR director. I don't know if they're available, but they're not. But the chief should be able to. I'll just speak as I've been on um city council for four years now and the the chief has presented year overyear very well researched I would say data showing um what our recruitment and retention has looked like and as well as continuing briefing us on what the recruitment um prospects have looked like. Um I I forget the number that the chief will share it, but we actually have seen um quite a high interest of folks who are outside of Wooki who would uh be interested in volunteering on our fire department. Right now we have this fiveminute radius that we've set which you know I think everybody would agree probably makes sense. Um but there's many more people who live outside of that fiveminute radius. And then we've also explored other options as you were alluding to and what we would like to do in terms of having enough space to attract the folks that we need to attract to keep a somewhat 24/7 fire department going. Um we're looking at an awful lot more money than we're looking at uh the purchase and and renovation of a home. But I'll I'll turn it over to the chief uh because he can give you some more specifics. So good evening and uh thank you for your service. Uh I guess you know to start with um yeah this is not new to Manuski as far as the conversation of um the trends um the data we've collected um recruitment and retention. Um our model is um we we rely heavily on on call paid on call folks. Um,

you know, in 2011 when I came here, there was 22 24 people on that on that roster. Um, we're currently at um, eight um, soon to be seven. Um, and these are folks we rely on 6P to 6A um, Sunday through Saturday mornings. Um, and then they pull duty weekends, so they they pull a a significant workload. Um, you know, the city has made investments into the full-time staff doing community risk reduction. Um, and we've stretched that staff um through really creative um mindful thinking as far as hours covered. Um, for instance, I'm in the city by six. Um, you know, Chief Spittleles tends to stay later. Um, and you know, the other full-time staff do the same. And it just really allows us as full-time staff to cover 6A to 6P generally speaking um, Monday through Friday. Um, so we've over the years um, continue to try to be very creative. Obviously, the numbers have dropped um, recruitment wise in the five minute window, if you will. Um, you mentioned it's not easy to get people to do this, you know, get certified to do this work. Um that is true. This is not a Wooki problem. This is um you know it's it's anywhere you go in the fire world or emergency service public safety realm. Um it it's true. Um the current station um was originally designed to go up a floor. Um it's not sprinklered. Um it has has current egress issues. Um so we can't just put a couple bunks um in that space currently. Um we've um the state's with us every week as far as a division of fire safety. Um we've spoken to them a

lot about you know could we do it even on a temporary basis um and and really there's just a lot of roadblocks to do that um as an employer, right? It's not just um my own home that I want to I want to put somebody in. We're we're an employer. Um, so I think people get that meeting, you know, the the different standards. Um, the the thought process, um, you know, of looking at other properties within proximity of the fire station, um, is not new. Um, really out of the box as far as um, in the fire service. Um, kind of a grassroots thought process, if you will. Um, so we've continued to look at different, um, properties. Um, 111 Weaver, you know, has been on the market. Um, but there's, um, some reasons why it got our interest again. Um, and, uh, you know, the the intent would be to maintain that as a duplex. Um, and create some private um, bunk rooms where we can continue to leverage the paid on call. um model, combination model um and uh you know really share that workload. Um and you know we're human resources um is saying we had 100 applicants um that lived outside of the five minute um range. We simply weren't able to extend an interview to them. Um, again, it's all connected to the response times. Um, the safety of people getting to and from the fire station and again just the response times of getting out. So, um, I guess I'll stop there and see if I answered all the questions because there's a few of them in there, but I'm willing to answer anything else.

Oh, the property is a duplex. We're able to hear that, John. Uh, current it currently is a was an owner occupied uh, duplex. So, I mean, has anybody looked at the conversion? I'm just thinking out loud here. Can keep it as a duplex. One half goes to the fire department, the other half maybe recoup some of the city's expenditure and rent it out. I mean, is does that come up? Um, so a great question. um

benefit everybody, you know, rather than just the taxpayer, you know, getting hammered for it. If we can take care of you and then cut the cost by renting the other already a duplex. Um no, not I'm not talking like just, you know, a handout, you know, government subsidized housing. I'm talking like, okay, we just renovated this. What's up the code? Obviously, would they inspire people living there, you know, rent the other half out and, you know, bring in some revenue for the city? Not really a question for you, chief. More of a question for for the mayor and the city council.

I I would point out that firefighters are serving the taxpayer. Like, they're making sure that they're here to cover us if there is a fire. So, it's not like we are helping them, not help us. We're helping them help us. And currently, we have gaps in coverage. Yeah. And that we don't want. We don't want fires at night that can't be serviced by firefighters. So, this is a solution to that. Yes, I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying that this this is a methodology for that. But if the structure is already a duplex

and we renovate the entire thing, which I'm assuming the city is going to, is there I'm just bringing this out for conversation. One half goes to the one to four I don't know what how many firefighters are actually going to stay in this. the other half. Why not keep it as a duplex and use the other half, rent it out to people and city rather than it being an expenditure, it can be less civil expenditure. I also I'm sorry. Yeah. I just want to know when you were sitting up here earlier, you had mentioned that you thought that the number was like approximately going to be like $100,000 in renovations to No, I'm saying yes. Right. So, um, guessing I don't want

No, I totally I know that you you you diligently read the email and you're here, which we again greatly appreciate. Um, but that's not to given the research that has been done. I'm also not a construction worker by any means. Um, but uh the renovation would be nowhere near that price. And so the thought process and the chief has shared this and I'm sure he will as well is that um to keep when we say keep it as a duplex it means that like then like when the current fire station that's being used is renovated and able to have some quarters for folks that then this house would be resold and that the duplex structure would then be you know very resellable. Not a real estate agent. Um but so I think that's also it and the thing that I want to note is also that the fire marshall um fire marshall spittle will be his office will also be moving over there. So it will be living quarters and also then administrative offices as well.

So this is a short-term fix. Then at some point the fire station is going to be renovated. Is that what you just said? I believe that's the the plan. Again, I'm not clairvoyant, so I'm not able, but that's the sort of the the ideas. Yeah.

Again, that would be more I mean, justification in my mind to keep it as a duplex. And also for resale, we're talking five years from now, reselling the property. You wouldn't have to then pay additional money to have it refurbished again, converting it from whatever. just hoping that there's I'm assuming there is a long-term, you know, wellthoughtout plan that this isn't just a hey, this property is probably as cheap as we're going to get it. We need bunk space for the fire fire department because we can't get people to take the job and we hope that this is going to be enough at all. We encourage people to come in, but I have no idea that, you know, renovations for the the fire station were being considered. I mean, if five years from now, we think that's going to happen. The second story that was supposed to go on there goes on there and now we've got plenty of bunk space and you know, now we can unload that property off the city walls and just something again for the council to consider. Sounds like everybody's on board. this is going to happen one way or another that let's you know try to make this well planned as possible and not just buy the property and I just hoping that yes

yeah and I I believe that the I know you directed your question to us but I you know the chief is is leading this initiative I think that um this property in its selection was due to how it could be renovated to be used in its entirety to to uh the the fire department. So, totally get what you're saying in terms of it's a duplex already, but I think the size of it is what um is actually what is appealing to to the fire chief in terms of what he needs to move uh to move it forward. Um so, yeah, we we wouldn't be looking to not use some of that space uh for for rental to and then use it as rental because he does in fact have plans to use the whole thing or buy it. Yeah, but good question. Thank you.

John talk about the plan. Sure. Yeah, John, if you want to elaborate on what I said, uh, feel free, please.

Yeah. So, um, you know, there as far as the renovation, it's it's really it's not a lot. Um, it's on the second floor. Um, adding a wall so that we can have two private um, sleeping quarters on the second floor. um use the existing bathroom as it is as a you know as a facility. Um remove um the um like the kitchen cabinets but leave leave all the water sewer capped um in that location. So again when um when and if the city um you know can wants to do the resale um it's it's not a big lift to to get that back. So, we're again really looking to keep the up and down kind of duplex intact. Um, the first floor, we would move the fire marshall's office over there. Again, this is um to relieve some of the space needs in the firehouse, but more so for us to have eyes on that other facility um on a daily basis, Monday through Friday basis. Um and uh you know, again, it's really um some cleanup, some paint. Um there there's not a ton of um it's not like we're gutting the building. Um it's as it as it sits in its state, it's it's a kind of status quo to maintain it. Um and and really that renovation work is work that staff um grassroot grassroots efforts for the staff to kind of do um this the bulk of that work. Thank you. Any other questions?

The only other one I had is is there a decision point if this goes down? I I think you guys have already decided it's it's going to go down, but let's say two years from now, project's been done, no one's living. Does the city just retain it? I'm guessing. Um, I get that, you know, if the if the long-term goal is, you know, keeping in our back pocket as a potential, um, recruitment tool and it doesn't pan out 24 months, whatever, you know, is there a decision point to to are we just holding on to it and nothing? Se

Yeah, I'll try to answer that a little bit. And again, this is part of the the story, kind of the journey that we've taken um in Wooki. There is no doubt that there needs to be 247 coverage here in Wooki. Um having said that, economy of scale, we definitely want to leverage the on call, paid on call model. Um that's worked well. Um it's been of great value to Wooki. Um and again, this is a tool to to try to do that. Um if in 24 months we're not successful in recruiting more um the building sitting idle, you know, part of that journey is the community needs to decide what the next steps um for fire coverage are. Um you know um if you go 247 um hire 247 staff, you need sleeping quarters. Um, you know, again, we're we're talking extremely three plus million dollars to renovate the current station um versus, you know, piloting this this other model. Um, so that's that's part of the journey that um, Wooki has has taken. Um, and uh, yeah. Go ahead.

I'll just mention too. So uh you mentioned like hammering on the taxpayers this the amount of money that would the money that would go towards the purchase and the renovation would actually come out of the fund balance. So there wouldn't be a tax impact. That's still the money keeping. Sure. Yeah. And of course once we go into operating know there's some operating mode there and the fact that it comes off the ground means there's some less money going into tax. So not saying it's completely um uh not relevant but it's maybe less than some other people might imagine.

But that's why you know my point in trying to keep half of it for a section of it is property. I mean, I I don't know the ins and outs if it's city property and that other half of the duplex income, is it still taxable? Don't know. Obviously, not my my value, but um yeah, just I was just throwing it out as that was a the methodology of potentially not losing tax revenue on a property you're currently getting tax revenue on and bringing in rent. you know, you could actually potentially make money rather than losing money. And I get it. The money's already there. Yeah.

But

one thing I will say and um you know, if I'm saying two years there's there's nobody in there and I from what we've seen from applicants, I'm somewhat confident on that on wood. Don't want to be too cocky, but I think that we'll we'll get some some applicants. Unless things completely change in this country, real estate continues to be an appreciating asset. So, if in two years or three years the community makes the decision that we're pursuing alternate models of of fire and we're going to sell this building, I do believe we'll make up some of the money in that in that sale in a future market. Um, I understand it wouldn't be money in the in the two years and would be vacant, but I'm again not concerned barring some world catastrophe that if we had to sell this property, we would likely make money on it.

But also, I don't know. I'm guessing within five, I just have this feeling in five years there's going to be a major renovation, the fire station, and there's probably going to be those bunk spaces. So, I'm just looking at it short term. This is interim fix. Let's again try to make it as painless as possible. You know, try not to lose revenue or if we can afford to lose revenue and then the bond or whatever passes to do the renovations on a fire station within the next five years in case happen then get it. And I would do chief I'm not trying to trying to downplay it or your need need. I just would like to see the city council try to make this as cost cost beneficial to the taxpayer.

I appreciate that. But they're all really good questions. I appreciate appreciate the questions. I'm sure I come across as a naysayer if I No, no, no. Like I said, we we like to have people ask I appreciate your service. Yeah. And I extend the offer. you know, I'm there Monday through Friday and let's connect and you know, I'd like to try to try to answer more of your questions. Thanks, Chief Al. You want to say something else?

Yeah, I will say um in general, I I'm I will be very reluctant for the city to become a landlord. We all know how challenging that is. So, it would be awkward to be a city and then find that. Um it would also if we rented out the power income producing would need to remain on their tax rules. It would actually increase the costs for the city to do that city taxes but also school taxes. So it would be a double.

Thank you, Angela. That was that was our finance director. Um all right, any other questions from the public? Thank you for your question, sir. Uh, anybody online? All right. In that case, um I will seek a motion to authorize the use of general fund balance up to the amount discussed for the purchase of 111 Weaver Street plus another up to $30,000 for the renovation and operation 111 Weaver Street as discussed where any difference between the cost of procuring the property and the discussed limit or that may be used for renovation and operation of 111 Weaver Street. So move second. All those in favor? Hi. Hi.

Hi.

Thank you very much everybody. All right. We will now move on to our next item um which is a proposed executive discussion uh sorry session which will be a discussion pursuant to 1 VSA 313 which exempts from public expansion inspection A1A contracts for the purpose of discussing a change in scope relating to the Armory Housing Project contract with CHT. Um I will invite into that meeting pull this up here um our housing initiative director Jasmine Hurley, Michael Monty of CHT, uh city manager Ela Wong, and attorney Capiso. Um can I get a motion for that, please?

Seconded. All those in favor? I I will be recusing myself from this item uh continuing when I'll be joining executive session. Wonderful. Thank you, Elsie. Have a good night. Um, for the public, we will be remaining in this space for this item. Uh, we will come back out um and have a regular item. So, if you would like to hear that, we'll just ask that you wait out in the hall and then you can come back in after uh we are done. So, we will come let you know that we are done our executive. As far as the executive, we will only discuss uh what I mentioned in the morning. You will stay.

Yes. Last I checked, your name is Michael Monty. All right. Uh thank you uh for bearing with us in executive session. Uh we are back to executive session and did not discuss anything outside of what I had warned. Um we will now move on to uh our last regular item of the night. Uh discussion approval of the change in scope of the Armory project. Uh Jasmine, do you want to give a brief overview?

Sure. Um so the armoring project is um a potential housing opportunity that the city uh came across a year and a half ago now. Um the uh original plan had been that the city well we did issue an RFP in November 2024 is almost I think um and uh we had asked for uh developers to submit bids who were able to uh potentially supply um some of the city's housing priority um which include affordable housing um home ownership opportunity um in three plus bedroom units. Um and we received one bid, worked with CHT. Um so we began working with CHT on a concept design and moving forward with that project. Um it was originally designed as a 30 unit um development um with 24 rental units and six town homes. Um that project went to the RV in December. um and was ultimately denied. Um so CHT has been working on a revised plan um which um will likely look to only include um rental units um and a reduced to unit count of 24. Um so this item is uh related to council amending the uh direction for the RFP scope um which had originally said that there would be no less than 50% units for offered for home ownership. Um and so I think the

decision point would be to amend that to allow for a project with the scope of

Thank you Jasmine. Um, you know, this is an incredibly important project. Um, I council referenced that when we first approved it. We recognized that this was truly just a situation that many cities and towns don't find themselves in where there's a big chunk of land uh when you have no land in your city to develop. Uh so we wanted to make sure that we could make provide housing for the folks uh in Wooki who have spoken time and time again whether it be in this meeting or individually to members of council. I'll include members of the school board as well and and to city uh staff uh that we just have a housing shortage for the folks uh who exist here. We've got families of, you know, four living in uh, you know, one plusbedroom uh, apartments, families of six and larger living in two-bedroom apartments. So, this was a really unique opportunity to try to uh, create places uh, with with more bedrooms and yes, we had uh, primarily wanted um, owner occupied units. Um, I think um, currently here right now, I was I was one of the people who pushed the hardest for that. Um, but to me it is important that we're providing housing in areas of Wooki that make sense for housing. So, um, I appreciate CHT revamping, uh, the work that they did, uh, after a lot of extensive work, um, to to still provide us with a project, um, which is ultimately what council wants is a is a housing project in that area. Um, so very appreciative that of staff's time, of CHST's time. Um, I I'll leave it at that. I'm I'm I'm very happy that we can try to keep this moving forward. Um councilors, I don't know if you want to add anything or ask any questions of Jasmine or CHT.

Yeah, I I think most of my questions have been answered. Um CHT was extremely thoughtful in meeting the concerns that the DRB had um in giving this new proposal and why we're kind of shifting to this fully rental.

Um And we've also heard from folks, I think both employed by the school and with other organizations that service um Wooki residents that rentals are in extreme need. Yes. how additional um home ownership opportunities also a big need. But having these rentals um would be just in a lot of cases life-changing and making sure that folks can stay within their community where they've built community um keep kids in the school that they're going to and that is able to best provide um the education that they need. So, I I'm just also just wanted to echo kind of that appreciation and the appreciation of CHT and working with us um and really meeting the goals of kind of the vision that we want the city to be.

Thank you, Council. Uh councelor Oakley for council chos. I echo everything that council and you just said and again that's one of the things that I love about Windows is that we are a city that lives and operationalizes our values and I think this is a great way to do that and it's been really wonderful to partner with CHT and I look forward to doing it more in the future. Wonderful. Thank you. Um Council Oakley.

Sure. Yeah, I'm I want to say I'm really excited to explore a path forward. Um, you know, to reiterate, this is a unique opportunity to uh create some uh direly needed familysiz how housing and affordable familysiz housing in our community. Um, so I'm really looking forward to continuing the conversation and to um seeing seeing what we can do to to realize this opportunity um in the near future.

Thank you, Councelor Deputy Mayor Oakley. Um yeah, we'll open uh this time up now uh for any comments from the public. Uh we've got folks in the room, so I will start there. Uh if you would like to approach, you can either sit at the blue chairs or you can join us close up of the orange chair. I'll just have you state your name. I'll just ask you to speak up a little louder than you have previous meetings because the the mic is here tonight.

So my name is Kate Coffee. Uh I live on Anso Street. I've come to a number of the meetings of the the previous version of this. Um I also was approached by a city official who suggested there might be collusion in the RFP process um between the and CHP. Um I'm not a lawyer. Um so I'm going to just leave that one alone. I I do think that the U letter from both the city engineer and uh the director of public works who recused themselves um but still wrote a letter um suggest that there is something um perhaps not as transparent as I hope um in relations here Um, now I will leave that. Um I I came a number of times and talked about an existing safety issue um on Manso Street and um I heard um a very um well spoken woman from CHD talk about this location of the Armory uh site um and its proximity to the bus line. Um so there are two of those on on East Allen. um the number two Essex. And then um if you go down the fountain, there's another one. And I that's a number of lines, but um you have to walk in the street um to get there. Um at least to the ones on East Allen uh street because um

Manso from the fountain to East Allen does not have a sidewalk. Um the from Dion on Dion Street there is not a continuous sidewalk to East Allen. There's a sidewalk that goes um from the fountain to Corin Street and then it stops. Um, I I've lived uh in the house that I am fortunate enough to own on Mano Street since before the um two two um large apartment buildings on East Allen were built. And um my my life, my experience has changed dramatically. um you know there's a number of of cars um that wasn't there before and adding that to the um lack of sidewalks um it's a safety issue. um making a lefthand turn from either Dina or well you can't dono and that's because they have not one or two but they have three no lefthand turn signs out of D which doesn't stop people from making that turn and that's why there is a missing pedestrian sign um there now uh so there's typically three there's typically or one of them recently got taken out by a car making a lefthand turn. It's not the first time um that pedestrian uh signal has been taken out by a vehicle turning left there. Um, it's already an issue having more vehicles without mitigating the existing problem. More

vehicles, more people um on the streets is is not working. Um, I need not to go back to the um what I talked about first, but the the um city engineers letter talking about um utilities uh you know the need for a water man um not not having tested the soils. Now, I'm not sure if that was about um water absorption um for ways for on-site runoff or if he was talking about um possible contamination of the um the oil there. Um I think is a really um I think it's something that should be explored. I also think that uh there should be um thought of bringing in um the city engineer and public works um director early on in the project um from those letters. It seems that that was not um that was not done and that's unfortunate. Um, you know, I I not only is there the safety issue with the pedestrian um and the cars and the streets and the lack of sidewalks. Um but as an architect and I I do understand that your the project is being scaled back this scale of um this the density and the size of the buildings that were being proposed um just didn't work. And I'm not sure how um

those types of buildings or that size um and height of building where it started in the gateway districts. Um is now like moving into um farther into the the uh city into these um you know single family home neighborhoods. It sets up a uh um an unwelcome and uh it it's a tension and and I think that the neighbors really um made their voices very clear about that. Um, I also encourage anyone who didn't watch um the etharians here in this room to to um listen to how many people recuse themselves or admit or acknowledge their conflict of interest and then spoke anyway. Um, and that they did it and couldn't um filter themselves felt very strange. but that the city um didn't stop that either. I I didn't understand that. Um in the November meeting, someone um said that that actually didn't happen. Although uh it had just previously happened in that uh in that meeting. It's going on and on and on. Um it it's uh I I just see an opportunity here for the whole thing to be done a lot better. And in terms of um this meeting tonight, um you had to click on the front porch forum special city meeting which didn't didn't reference either the um the

firehouse at buying this or this other project to see what was being to see that this was being talked about. And again, I I don't think that's um very transparent of the city. Um especially when so many people um uh had a had a lot of feelings, strong feelings about uh the process and what was going on um along the way. And I think that's um more than enough out of me right. There were no questions. It was just me talking. Yeah. So, thanks for listening again.

Thank you very much for your comments. Um, as I mentioned to Mark before, I always appreciate when people show up to council. Um, we're all here because we want to hear from people. So, thank you. Um, any other public comment? So, I decided to stick around. Um, so just I have read a little bit about this again live on Mansion Street. Um I have read about a little about this just on front porch forum. Um is it is it true that noise tested the soil phase one and two that has been done? It has been tested for

because as in a Vermont Army National Guard for 20 years I can tell you that that is a contaminated so I mean glad from the Yeah, they did. Okay. It did look like that I'd run by there on my lunch breaks and it looked like they dug up everything and you know at least two feet looks like they dug up a couple of feet of dirt and I don't know if they took it away. So that's good. That's I'm pretty sure. Yeah. When we talked way back when before even this project had materialized and we talked about um the armory being sold. We somebody on council I forget who but said there's likely contendions there.

Yeah. It was very fun very front of mindfield doing the uh what's it the post was it called post place um that was also brownfield but um yeah part of the the partnership has always been that you know there's a possibility of that that stage two will be made and all of that but they do have to follow a larger proc access the HUD um and the department of environmental correction. Um so they do a whole corrective action plan and yeah the whole game.

Yeah. Just want to make sure you guys can get down that path. Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm sure they not again, not to hypothetically speaking, not that personal knowledge is happening, you know, dumping, you know, motor oil, all the other weapons cleaning stuff, you know, which I never did or never signed my soldiers do. Um, hypothetically speaking, um, who is going to own and manage the facility?

The city will only be owning the property for one instance, we have the right of first refusal with the National Guard um as a municipality that the RF is located in. So, we've been talking with them. They're really excited about the potential for this to continue as, you know, uh an extension of the public good. Um and so we would be purchasing from them and then simultaneously sell it to CHT who will manage the property. Um so, the city will not be owning it or maintaining it at all. So, I see like It's I think it's Champlne Housing Trust all over the place.

Yeah, we shouldn't have used the acronym Champlne Housing Trust. Yeah. So, like a non for non forprofit? No, I just It's funny. I had no idea just because I I've got the the big senior complex in my street. I see that up.

Yeah. senior the senior powers are housing property which is a public housing building housing they own a couple of Molly they did the like a recent example is on bed they did the butternut grove condo complex right there on the and those are all home that's okay we won't say which number is one most densely populated cities in New England.

Um I know there have been discussions that this was a this was a desirable project because the number of students in the high school that we just spent millions of dollars on have reduced significant reduction. So is is is that true? Is that one of the reasons that we're really big on to three bedroom or three? Yes. one thing.

Yes. I just again little you know big picture concern that you know you're jamming you're you're already probably overpop populated have an excessive population density. Um the traffic I mean I'm almost me and my daughter have almost been hit numerous time. There's just a lot of problems with converting a big old mill town with mill type single family housing into you know what it's become. Yeah. And I don't live right there, but I can certainly see, you know, the concerns of the the citizens who are going to have to deal with the traffic every day. Um, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I can speak to some of those points. you know, I mean, we hear frequently um and I've had conversations with people who have left Wooki because they were living in kind and of like what I would say substandard housing, not enough bedrooms for the amount of children and parents. Um there are people who are living on other family members couches while they hope they can find something in Wooki. And you know, I I you know, I live in Florida. A I I complain to the city manager frequently about the uh the problems with traffic, but I'll tell you, are you allowed?

No, nothing happens. Um I'll tell you what, but yeah. No, no, quite the opposite. But anyway, um you know, my my my spouse's family has lived in Wooki since his great-grandparents. People have complained about traffic since then. Um complaining about tra, you know, in the sleepiest neighborhoods in South Burlington, people unfortunately get hit. We we do have plans and proposals to try to alleviate traffic. Um again, the the city manager and the police chief can tell you how frequently I I speak about traffic problems. um for uh during our budget in session, I was advocating for extra police officers to help with the with the traffic uh issues. I I'm not saying they don't exist, but they have always existed. Um again, since almost we were in horse and buggy in in Wooki. Um but what we know now and and we are densely populated, but we're we're not even and I'm sure some people will will come to these apartments who don't live in Wooki. Um, you know, that's that's great. As mayor, I I find myself to be chief champion of Wooki and trying to get more people shopping in our businesses and going to our restaurants, but um I know there's existing families now. Um, you know, I have I've had this conversation uh with with a few people, but uh my own family has experienced extended family has experienced homelessness in this city and don't want to live somewhere else. Um, and it's it's what we would consider a large family these days. Uh, you know, uh, four boys and and and one parent. Um, we we don't have housing like that. Um, so I I I've I I sympathize with with with many of the issues, but I'm looking at residents who every day are telling

me um they're literally sleeping on floors. Is there a legal methodology to prioritize the people non-residents.

So, we can't legally discriminate. Um, I, you know, I'm speaking a little bit for CHT here, but from what I understand and certainly, you know, I I can make this promise as as mayor as we want to advertise those units in Wooki as much as we can. I know that CHT plans to work with the school. Uh, it's amazing the information that the school holds. They know almost every homeless slash not technically homeless family in the the city as well as the folks who have moved to South Burlington and deeply want to come back here. So I know CH is going to do that work. Um I I believe it would open them and maybe us up to some discrimination lawsuits if we said only folks who live in Wooki can apply. Um but the the the certain hope is that um the majority of those units will go to to folks who who have a WUCI connection or here and we'll we'll do our darnest to market it that way.

Right. Not that I not not that I advocate yet speaking word gets out that you know these units are going to be open for residency within the next six months. No not time put in a packet. Um I think something like again my lawyer. Yeah, that could probably be done without breaking discrimin discriminatory laws. I do believe that's the point. Yeah. Yeah. But what you said targeted conversations

and folks holding hands making sure they can get the applications in and then working with families who are working and struggling with their incomes and they'll go forward even lower income that we have. So we'll do a whole range of things to make sure that we have first come to res opening up the Yeah, thank you for the education.

Appreciate your questions. Thank you. Um, any other questions online? Okay, not seeing any. Pull back up that document. All right. So, what I will see, excuse me, motion on uh tonight, council, is to approve to approve the change in scope for the Armory housing project from 50/50 owner rental to 100% rental units and to authorize the mayor or his designate to support the project publicly as discussed. So, move second. All those in favor? I I

All right, the motion uh passes. Thank you very much, council. That brings tonight's meeting uh to an end. Um, I'll seek a motion to adjourn to next meeting. So moved. Second. All those in favor? I. I. And council herd. Um, you thought it had been your last meeting last time, but it is now your last meeting. I don't know. Aren't they going to be the meeting on Monday? Yeah, that's different. That's different though. They're there in their their their role. It's more of a school role over there. So, um, Aurora, thank you for your work. Thank you for your questions. And um I'm eager to take your writing class when you can do it now that you're a civilian. Thanks everybody. Thank you staff. Much appreciated.