Zoning Hearing Board - Regular Meeting

Evening. Before we start, I'd like to make sure everyone has signed in for the meeting at the back entrance of the room. If you've not, please do so because it must be on the record. I'm Bob Tanner, um, appointing Charles F as a voting board member this evening. Uh, I'd like to introduce the following members. We have Matthew Puzz, zoning and development officer. Julie Majio, assistant zoning and development officer. Uh, Jeremy Toman, board solicitor. Tamar Doxy, court reporter. After the presentation by the appellent, the board will hear from those in question of the appeal, those in favor, and those opposed. Any documents or evidence that's presented must be kept for a period of 60 days for our records. And after all the presentations are made, the board will recess. We'll then reconvene and make our decisions. The board has 45 days to render a decision for the usually made this evening. If you do not care to wait for a decision, you may call the zoning office in the morning after 8:30 a.m. And now I ask that everyone please stand to be sworn in. Please stand to be sworn in. Thank you. Uh plea, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Please answer. I do.

Okay. So we're going to hear uh the first appeal and then the next appeals we'll hear kind of as a composite. So the first

and before we get started um you'll see that there's only two board members present today. So the normal composition of the board is three. Um so with two board members there's a possibility of a tie vote. Um you know both applicants are seeking variances. So, in that instance, if there ever was a tie, it would be a deemed denial. So, I'm just giving you a heads up now. Um, your options are we can go through the process um and let the board decide. Uh, the other alternative would be is to seek um an extension uh into the next hearing basically. Uh at which point then, you know, hopefully we would have a full slate, full composition of the board. So, I just want to disclose that just in the a tie. I'm not saying that there will be or suggesting in any way that there will be, but there could be. Uh, so I just want to put that out there. And so if if any of the applicants like if you have when when we present your name, if you would prefer to wait until the next hearing, just let us know uh once your name's announced.

Thank you. Appeal number 26-03, John C. angle for property located at 30006 H Avenue seeking a sideyard setback variance to construct a carport in the R1 single family residential district. Uh please come on up, state your name and address and uh tell us a little bit about your request.

Good evening. Um, my name is John Engel and the address is 3006 Haw Avenue, Erie, Pennsylvania 16505 and I'm here to request a variance, a sideyard setback variance to replace a sideyard carport that collapsed due to heavy snowfall. Uh, the prior carport did not have a variance. So, this request is to rebuild that same structure with just stronger and more durable materials.

Okay. Uh primary factors for this request uh to ensure obviously compliance with the township's zoning requirements and variance process. Uh the narrowness of the property uh the property plot does not allow for moving this uh carport to the rear yard and the proposed structure is similar to the prior structure. It's designed to prevent any impact on adjacent properties and it's also designed to not alter the essential character of the neighborhood or the district. Okay. Uh can you from the structural drawings here it appears that this is not attached to the home. This will be detached. Yes.

Right. So Matt, it is a sevenyard setback. Um, but the reason this wouldn't comply as a detached structure is because it's not at least so many feet from the home. Is that correct? Correct. The detached accessory structure would be required to be at least 10 ft from the house. In which case, the sideyard setback for that would be uh two foot side and rear.

Okay. Uh, and is this the same exact size as what the existing carport was? I think it's it's very close. Um I believe that it's it's uh the structure of the materials is different. Um instead of like aluminum post, these will be uh I think 6 inch um wood beams. Yep. Um so but the structure is very similar in size. Okay. This anything you've discussed with nearby neighbors or anyone it impacts? Yes, I discussed it with the adjacent property owner uh supposed to be on the right side of the house.

Um that individual uh was agreeable to the rebuilding of this uh carport and I believe he stopped up to the municipal building and and talked to the folks there and kind of agreed. Okay. Wouldn't impact him negatively. Okay. Jeremy, you have any questions? Yeah. You mentioned the inability to place the carport in the rear yard. Could you elaborate upon that? Is it like is there topographical concerns in the backyard or is there other issues?

No, there's a fairly substantial deck um in the backyard that doesn't allow uh and and really due to I think the depth of the property and the width to be able to pull a car into the backyard unless it was straight back off the street um which wouldn't make sense. We'd still be butting the same issue about sideyard uh variance. Charles, I have no questions. Okay. Uh I don't really have any other questions for you at this time. Okay. Okay. Just like to say thank you to the uh the zoning office uh with help me through the paperwork. So, thank you. Okay. Thank you.

Sure. So, anyone in the audience would like to speak on this? Okay. So, next up we have appeals uh 26-04 567 and 8 for all with Mil Creek Township School District for the following addresses. 2624 West 6th, 5300 Henderson Road, 4301 Lancaster, 5875 Statitania, 5901 Saratania, and 4330 Westlake Road. All seeking a variance from sign regulations for new signage in the R1 single family residential district. uh if you'd like to come on up. Uh if we could talk about I know each one has individual characteristics, but the signs appear similar or the same.

Yes. Yep. Yeah. Come on. Can just briefly before we get started, I do have a conflict of interest. My law firm represents the Mil Creek Township School District. So, um, if it's okay with you, the applicant, um, I will sit, listen, and draft the adjudication, but I won't participate in the deliberation. Yeah. Yes. Uh, thank you everyone. Uh, good evening. My name is John Finn. I'm with HHS, the architects engineers. I'm also here with Mr. Aaron Oul with the school district. Uh, to answer your question, yes. Uh, they are all similar. the all the signs at all these locations are similar. They are actually matching,

excuse me, the signs that are currently uh in operation at McDow Senior and McDow Intermediate and as well as uh the ones that were approved last year for JS Wilson and Chestnut Hill. Uh the thing about the variance that we're going for here is an increase in the size for the electronic message center. Per the variance is it 14588 32 square foot is the max size. Um the uh existing signs that we have now are all greater. The uh the electronic message center is and banner at the top for these signs will measure at 40.42 square ft which is 8.42 square ft greater just under 8 and a half square feet greater than the ordinance has uh the restriction for. Uh this does match the signs that uh at Chestnut Hill and JS Wilson and uh the reasoning behind this and the request in general is it it's one sign for the school district. Uh many reasons. The first one being it is one sign for the school district to have to maintain uh receive training on operate under a single vendor. All of these signs will be the um Dacttronics Galaxy GS uh 6 series electronic message center that we are installing right now. Uh so one vendor, one source of parts and things like that. So from a maintenance uh standpoint, this is a much uh better situation for the school district. However, uh the more important factor here is in the size is the ease of conveying the information to the motorists and and individuals seeing the sign as you're passing by. Uh with all of these locations, there's various obstructions uh in both lanes of travel. Uh some of them greater than others, and I have some exhibits here that I can kind of point out some of those obstructions. But uh the time that you actually see the sign is very brief as you're traveling by it uh in some of these locations. So having a larger image does allow the the motorist and uh to see the

information that's uh being portrayed by the school district uh at those locations. So Okay. Is it correct then that all the existing signs are the 30 or well I'm sorry 32 square feet is what's allowed. Are all the existing signs the same size? Yes. Well, I believe the ones at JS Wilson and I can say that to the ones at JS Wilson and Chestnut Hill. I don't have the square footage for the ones at the high school and intermediate. I believe they are right there with that. Uh they're very close to that the electronic I'm sorry. I'm talking about the existing signs at all these parcels. Oh. Uh, the existing signs, they're various sizes. Uh,

oh, they're various. Okay. So, we can talk about each one a little bit independently. So, now now we can kind of go down through each each site a little bit. We understand kind of the overall so we don't have to repeat it five times. So, um, first one, 2624 West 6. So, Tracy Elementary. Um, we've got a 32 square foot sign uh requirement proposing 40.5. This one says the existing sign is 28 square ft. So the existing sign is a non electronic message center. Uh so we would be replacing that with a larger sign at those locations. Yes. Yeah. So

and then as far as any characteristics to talk about with this one uh sight lines of the importance of exceeding the sign.

Yes. So for trace okay in particular with Tracy Elementary School as you travel southwest along West 6 at the um excuse Summerheim Road. The neighboring property does have a hedge row in the back. And you can kind of see here in this image here, this hedro goes right to the corner. So by the time you actually get to the corner where the proposed sign is, it's right there, you know. So by the time you clear the hedro, you don't have a whole lot of time to actually see that sign. So the greater size would help with that location. traveling the other distance. It's a little bit more open, but there's a tree line that's actually on the school district's property at that location. Uh to, you know, that the canopy of the tree and everything is going to create and also the trunks of the trees are going to create some distraction and not being able to see that sign at that location.

Okay, let's move on to the next one being 5300 Hendersons of Bell Valley School. This one says uh so actually this one the existing sign is 40 square feet. Yes. Um so we're.5 square foot greater. Yes. Greater than existing.

Yes. Now Bell Valley is actually a different situation alto together. Uh Bell Valley's is actually located back at the school. So from Henderson it's approximately a 400 foot distance back from the road. So that is going to be that visual that distance the greater sign is going to help for that. But in addition to that as parents are coming and dropping off when they come on to the property. Excuse me. I'm sorry. The curvature of the road and the building itself is what blocks the because the sign is set back into a niche of the school district right there. And that's where the existing sign is located now currently. But as you turn the corner, you'll have that situation where you're, you know, able to see the sign a little bit more clearly.

Okay. only for that brief moment of time. Okay. Next one. 4301 Lancaster. So, Grand View. This says the existing sign is 40 square feet. So, it's a, you know, 8 and a half square foot variance, but it's a half a foot difference than what's there.

Yes. Grand View is probably one of the most open of the sites. However, the only open that we have, the openness that we have is the frontage of the school district itself or the school building itself. As you are approaching the school from the southwest, uh you are within some tree line there. So by the time you clear that, it's going to be a brief moment in time that you get to see that that sign as it is in its existing location. Coming the other way, it is improved much greater than all the probably one of the best views that you would have of the sign. But even still, there's some road signs and there's a little bit of clutter, natural things that are occurring there that um

a greater sign would still help the situation. But as far as impact over existing, we're talking a half a foot. That's exactly the difference from Yeah. It's very, very close to the existing size. So, all these signs we're talking about are going to set basically in the same position they're in. They're just a larger or updated sign. Yes, sir. That's correct. Yes. Uh, next one, 5875 Statitania. So, Asbury Elementary.

Okay. Asbury Elementary is another one that um we have a one way where we have a a very very big obstacle as you turn onto Thomas Road. Now this Matt can I mention the other part of this variance as well or the other variance for Asbury? Should I do that now? That would be for Asbury or what would the other variance be? We have because there's two we have to add a sign to that property. Uh, the way I interpret the zoning ordinance is that there is actually no cap on freestanding signs. Oh, okay. I apologize. So, please negate that.

I shouldn't say no cap, but there's um, you know, signage. The signage page says Asbury school, but then there's another one in here. So, this is actually for Asbury and Walnut because technically both the same same lot parcel, same lot. Correct. So I was under the understanding we needed a variance to have a sign for Asbury as well. So my apologies for that. So in focusing on Asbury then when you turn off of Thomas here and approach the site. This house on the corner has a very very heavy heavy tree line around it. So we're going to be placing the sign for Asbury here at the corner right at the entrance to the school for Thomas. Now that one there's no existing sign. Correct.

You are correct. There is no existing sign there. So, we'd be asking for a variance uh for the size of sign that we are looking for here. But you're allowed to have a sign. They're allowed to have another sign there, but there's no existing sign. Correct. Correct. In this case, the variance would be for the size of the sign. They would be permitted to have a 32 foot sign at that location. However, it's 40.5 square feet. Yeah. Okay.

Understood. And so coming from Thomas, there's a a big visual obstruction there with the trees coming through the trees to beyond where the sign will be placed beyond that tree line. So that the other direction there is some topography that is going to be blocking out the sign as well as some another tree line on the school district's property there. Okay. And then Walnut Creek as well.

Yeah. Walnut Creek is another it's open. It's more open than the others. Uh the existing sign there is actually an elevated sign. Uh so this will be bringing it down to the ground. Okay. So we would be taking that down to the ground which will improve things a lot. Um however with the curvature of the road coming up Stratania uh from the south uh it's going to get tucked in behind the trees at the entrance drive as well as the same thing coming from the north. you'll kind of have the opposite effect coming from the north with the curvature of the road and the tree line uh at the entrance there that will cause some obstruction.

Okay. Then lastly, 4330 Westlake Road. So, Westlake Middle School. Yes, sir. Westlake. This says the existing sign is 40 square feet. Yes. So, we'd be asking for a little bit greater there.

Okay. uh with Westlake Middle School. Uh this does have some openness across the front of the school. Okay. Uh coming from the Let's see, that's coming from the north. Um in general, there's a little bit of shrubbery, but it does open up rather nicely. There's some trees around the sign that are going to cause some shadow and and shading that would uh allow for a little bit of a visual impact. Coming from the south, we have the um fencing around the play area as well as that tree line around the fences that are going to cause the visual obstruction. So like I said, the larger side does help to convey that message much more effectively.

Okay. And the reason behind these signs being 40.5 versus 32. So they match the existing signs. Uh the next model up from that or next model down is actually rather small. So, it's uh definitely definitely much harder to read and get the the information across. Uh the 40.2 is actually including the name banner at the top of the sign as well, which I can show you on the drawings here. That does include the school identification at the top as well as the electronic message center here below. That is the full 40 point. Uh

are all these signs weighted all the time? No, they have to follow the conditional use uh regulations. So they are not they are illuminated at certain points in time but they have to follow the conditional use requirements of the variance as well. Can you tell me because I have that plan but it's too small or my eyes aren't good enough for both. That's fine. Uh what is the size of the message center itself? Size of the message center is going to be 3'8 by 8 foot1 and that's with the the trim and the construction. Yeah.

Yeah. So I have that I'm sorry. Uh 29.64 ft. 29.64.

Okay. Thank you. I think that's all the questions that I have for now. Yes, sir. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Anyone in the audience like to speak on this? Uh, please come on up. State your name and address.

Name is uh Brian Martin. Uh, 5215 Henderson Road. Okay. Uh I'm also authorized to speak for five of the uh five of the homeowners on Henderson Road directly across from the school. They weren't able to make it. We're all okay.

And mostly we just have a few questions. Uh even though Henderson Road is uh that section is u medium density housing. It's built up as much as it's it's going to be and it's still got a pretty relatively rural feel to it. And at night you got the park right there in the school. And I Well, I appreciate what you guys are doing with the dimensions of the signs and the uh standardization. Obviously, that's a a smart thing to do uh throughout the system with the banner on it. I guess what the concern and just the questions that that we have is how that's going to affect the nightscape. What and I don't I'm sorry I don't know the conditional use uh rules right now. U but that's I just wanted to come and find out what that's going to do to the to the evening because it's a quiet other than the It's a quiet dark area at night and uh I've looked at the sign. It does set back. I don't think that the sign itself is unless the lumens will be greatly increased. But the theformational banner if that's going all the time if you the one at the B Valley Firehouse doesn't really affect anything because it's on that busy corner. But if you have thatformational banner scrolling at night for other than during the school hours or an event, it's it will greatly affect the the nightscape of the of the neighborhood.

Matt, can you speak to to that? Yeah. Thank you. Uh would you just like me to read the conditional use requirements? Yeah.

Okay. So, uh, section 14588 electronic message center signs, um, they're required to, um, A, each such sign shall be equipped with an automatic dimmer device. be no animation of any type, no audio components, no pyrochnics, no scrolling messages, no videos, no flashing lights, and no spell effect display mode shall be allowed on any such sign. C duration messages shall stay static for a minimum of 8 seconds. D transition the change sequence shall be accomplished by means of instantaneous repixelization of less than one second. E the maximum error

one for one second. So yes, I don't know if you heard that that there is no scrolling allowed. It's it's static for 8 seconds. So that hopefully that helps with that part of your concern. So you understand that the the I'm very familiar with the signs in Mil Creek, how they work. I guess the biggest part is how the the uh duration that they'll be illuminated in the hours of operation. I'm going to skip to I can go back, but that I think would address your concern.

Um, each such sign shall be shut off between the hours of 11 p.m. and 6:00 a.m. on every day and shall use automatic daynight dimmer software or other means to reduce the illumination intensity of the sign to 500 nits or less from dusk until 11 p.m.

Okay. that I guess that's that's my concern and and no offense to you guys you're doing a lot of it's a lot of work to to do what you're doing but if you look at the big picture at 11 o'clock I've lived there all my life you don't unless you have something going on at the park or at the school a sign set back like that in all practical matters nobody's driving by and looking that they're having a bake sale next week or uh you know I look at I go through and I look at I pick up the trash all along the school there in the park. I see what the sign says. There's nothing that I think is important enough in my opinion to have the thing go until 11:00 at night on a on a summer evening when it's everything else is dark. It's going to I I I'm concerned that it may be illuminating the entire dark out area which uh

one thing I don't know if you had heard you said but from dusk until it shuts off it has to reduce in power. It has a sensor on there where it reduces to 500 nits. So it does automatically reduce as it gets darker. You know, kind of like your phone screen does that when you go into a dark environment. It has to do that's one of the requirements as well. Yeah, I get that. And again, my my concern is it has to be reduced, but what happens if it's like a movie theater light and it's like my god, it's lighting up the whole area. Would at what point and I'm not familiar with this process, but I'm just Sure. At what point do you say, "Hey, maybe we should look at how bright this is going to be."

That would be a call to the township and they would they're held to the township standards of that. I mean, it wouldn't even be a call to them. It would be to the township to code enforcement. And I'm assuming they have a way to measure the brightness they use. We would uh the zoning office would address the concern. And I mean, I generally handle the light complaints. So if you if there's an issue, please let me know. We will definitely look into it for you. Yeah. In addition, I think we turn them off 930. Yeah. See, and that's that's reasonable that I mean I mean you guys see what my what my concern is. I mean,

and you're not the only one for the other projects that the same concern was brought forward. I can't remember the exact time, but we don't go till 11. Yeah. Yeah. That's I'm not here to complain. I'm not here to throw a wrench in anybody's name, but uh if you don't sometimes if you don't pay attention. Yeah. Erin, if I could have you come state your name and address just for the record. No problem. Thank you. Am I dismissed? Yes, sir.

Aaron Oul, uh, and I'm the CFO for Mil Creek Township School District. Um, and just stating as a followup to that in regards to how late the sign will be on, well, understanding the ordinances till 11:00, uh, we wouldn't be, uh, leaving these signs on until 11:00. It would be closer to 910ish in that area. I would have to go back and look at our records. It follow the same suit of what we do for McDall and what we're going to do for the other uh, as well. understanding the fact that there's not many drivers on the road at 9 to 10 9 11 o'clock at night, it wouldn't bring much value to us. And we've also heard from other uh constituents in other areas for these signs of having that same exact concern. So, us being thoughtful of our residents that we wouldn't keep it on till 11 o'clock.

Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I'm good. Thanks. Anyone else in the audience have anything to say? Okay, we're going to take a brief recess and we'll be back shortly.

All right, let the record uh show we reconvened at approximately 6:40 or 6:33 um on appeal number 26-03 John C Engle 30006 Haw Avenue. I make a motion to approve. Do I have a second? A second. All in favor? I. None opposed. Appeal number 26-04, uh, Milreek Township School District, 2624 West 6th Street. I make a motion to approve. Do I have a second? Second. All in favor? I. I. So moved. Appeal number 26-05 Mil Creek Township School District for property at 5300 Henderson Road. I'll make a motion to approve. Do I have a second? Second. All in favor?

I I. So moved. Uh, appeal number 26-06 Mil Township School District 4301 Lancaster Road. Uh, I will make a motion to approve. Do I have a second? Second. All in favor? I. I. So moved. Number appeal number 26-07 Mil Creek Township School District. Uh, two signs. So 5875 Statenia and 5901 Statitania. I will make a motion to approve. Do I have a second? Second. All in favor? I. I. So moved. And finally on appeal number 26-08 Milreek Township School District at 4330 Westlake Road. I will make a motion to approve. Do I have a second? Second. All in favor?

I. So moved. I have a motion to adjourn. I move to to adjurnn. I will second. All in favor? I so moved.