City Council - Regular Meeting

You're up there. Do you want to join me? Honestly, you probably have to sit over there. There's plenty of council people here. Well, it's not that I don't want to sit by them. It's just that I don't want to sit up there generally. You think it's because I space.

So, is this basically going to be the same two days?

I'm definitely not I mean athletic

I taught a I coached ASO and United so I know a lot about both of those super generally if I read it right something like $100,000% One of the problems that I just like, you know, savings like society as a whole, you know, it's like this amount of money that you spend on housing, you know, saves all this money over here,

but it doesn't save any money for the organization that put in the money for the got a lot of power today. Where is everybody?

Well, Larry or tried to go to Larry, Emily, and Ethan tried to go to the cities to the National League of Cities and Larry got turned back. Yeah, that makes sense. There are brother looking at Last video is very hot. But the center

um well, should we go ahead? Sure.

Okay.

Uh so we're calling this work session uh to start and um it is being streamed I believe though I didn't check. Uh and our goal is to provide updates on the three innovation fundings that are still potential innovation funding applications that are still in play. Um we started off with more but they kind of fell off um for different reasons. Oh, sorry. Is this fine? Um mainly because it's extremely challenging to do this applica as we're seeing with these. It's the same reason that the other ones um had trouble getting submitted and also why throughout the state they're really struggling to um communities are struggling to turn these in because of the compressed timeline, because of all lots of barriers. So, um, but we still want to, if we can inch these forward, and if we can get there, we can get there. Um, the good thing about it being so challenging in this round is that if you do apply, um, we have a much higher likelihood of getting funded than later applications. So, if they make it easier, um, if DR makes it easier as a result of the feedback from this round, um, then we will, it'll be a lot harder to get accepted, especially because their priority is for public safety. Um, can you actually bring up the health department one first? Um, and And if anybody else wants a paper version, especially I we see a lot of health department people here, so you got I can just email it to you, but if anybody else in the audience wants a paper version, I have some here. Probably Jeremy does. Here you go.

Okay. So, we did a little write up trying to capture what um what the options is, the opportunity is, what we might have to do to accomplish it, what the risks are. Um, and we're really just looking to loop you in and also get any feedback from you. Um, it's of course complicated because it involves multiple um jurisdiction or multiple um governmental entities. So, we can't just act unilaterally. we need a partner to agree. Um, but uh I personally feel uh uh a calling or an obligation to get this as far down the road as I can with the tools that the city has um to make it um as likely as possible that the health department may be eligible for this funding. So just to go through this really quickly since we're just have an hour I hope and um want to go through all three but um for a very brief background that uh Lisa put together the co current joint city county health department was formed in 1941 and at that time it merged what was then separate city and county um health departments and then they existed independently and then they were joined together. It's um quite autonomous though. It has connections to both the city and the county. It's pretty autonomous and it's governed by the board of health. Um the health department employees are city employees. Their offices are at the county. Um they use some county resources like it and they use some city resources and then they do some things on their own like um they have their own HR person and finance that kind of thing. Um in terms of how much is money may be at stake as our under we have contracted with innovative public advisors and um they've prepared they basically they have been going back and forth with the do um and the do has been trying to um

trying to work out their uh parameters for the uh grant application and they have been just continuing to evolve as new questions come up. So, it's not like a settled situation. It's just evolving. Um, back to the issue of why it's hard to be the first in line for a new process, but why there's benefits and also like challenges with it. Um, so this is very briefly the the health department's budget. Um the city in 25 tra paid collect we collected from our residents and then put into the health department about $2 million and the county collected from their residents and put into the health department about 1.4 million and then they have lots and lots of other sources of funding like um licensing revenue, lots of grants. So that's for the total budget of 8.5 million. And um so we believe hope that the funding eligible would be uh the city levy and then so basically their whole budget minus um the county levy because the county levy is not being transferred if the county is the receiver. Um and that would then 25% of of that is 1.75 million and then times five years is 8.8ish million. So, it's a pretty big, if that's the case, then it's a pretty good amount of money. It's not restricted, so they could put it all in their fund balance. I mean, they have to work out with the county, but they would they could put as much as possible into the fund balance or to support with the transition or um uh and so it might provide like a buffer to allow them to try to figure out a a path towards greater sustainability in the future. Um, the city has committed to transfer our levy. So basically right now we love levy people give it to the health department like as of July 1st the county would levy those same people the same amount and give it to the health department. So it's just like you wouldn't really notice anything on your

budget on your tax bill except um maybe it wouldn't be break broken up from the city. It would be broken out um from the county. Same innovation funding. We we uh don't the city doesn't need that. That would go to the health department and the county. They would need to work out how to use that. Um if we don't apply as I said there will probably be future rounds and we don't know what the parameters were deadlines amount of money anything like that um the big problem is that yes yeah yeah yeah

microphone microphone sorry oh we are we are live stream okay Good. Um, so the 1.2 million is the grant money, right? No, no, sorry. Yeah, the the grant money. So, and and the 2 million that the city levies now and goes straight to the health department. That would go the county would then levy that amount and give it straight to the health department. That 521,000. Can you

um Yes. So that would be there was some thought that maybe it would just be 25% of the city's levy which would be 521,000. So it's it's seems to us and though they as I understand it the DR did just confirm that it is the full amount but you really we really never know until they see all the applications that come in because like they're just it's their first time. So um it could be as low as 521 or as high as 1.75. Okay. So, oh 1.75 could be the highest. It just seems like that that 521 and that 1234 got added up to the 17. Oh, yeah. I probably shouldn't have put anything in those columns, but yeah.

So, those that that 1.7 is not supposed to be an addition of those two items. It is an addition. or the sum. But I'm I'm I'm I understand that's the sum, but I'm I'm confused because I'm I think I'm understanding from Stephanie saying that the innovation funding is somewhere between 521 and what 12 1.2 1.7. So basically because you take the county out 1.2 is something else. It's other money that comes out in. They have 5,000 5 million in. Do you want to explain what that is, Lisa? So, when you look at the

You want to put your microphone? Sorry. Thank you. Sorry. Um, when you look at the budgeted amounts, um, the 2 million, you can look at the actual column is fine, but the 2 million is the levy from the city, 1.4 for levy from the county. The 4.9 is all other sources and

what um do staff um have said is that everything but the county levy. So that row could be included at the 25%. So the the 1.2 is 25% of the 4.9 million of other sources. So in the end, if the do a does say that everything but the county levy is eligible, it would be up to 1.7 million per year. Um there's also been communication that it's only the only thing that's transferring is the city levy and then only the 521 would be eligible or would be the grant amount.

Thank you very much for explaining that to me. I gotcha. Do are we okay with just jumping in or do you want to So I have a question about some of that um non city non county money. Um is is any of that stuff that we're eligible before because we are a city county department you know I mean like if it was just a county would they be like oh this is only for municipalities or something like that. Do you know what I mean? for grants. Mhm. Because, you know, my guess is that probably o over half of what the city county health department does is within the city limits as opposed to just the county. So, what would that do you get what I'm asking?

I do get what you're asking. Um, our revenue sources come from lots of different places. So, some of them are very dependent on the location. Yes. Um some grants we've received, although currently we're not receiving those grants, but we've gotten um the city um health dashboard grant was specifically because we were a city health department. So if we weren't a city health department anymore, we wouldn't have those funds. Um other things we get our revenue sources only because you know we're in a county and we've got we test wells. So you know we don't have wells in the city. So there's a mixture of um a mixture of funding sources. The regional funds which are significant. They're grant funding um are um I would say the majority of those are there because we are a city county health department and have the structure we do. We are able our colleagues often look to us to bring in regional projects that benefit the whole region because we have a board of health that can fairly quickly process those grants. say yes to those grants and process them and bring in short-term staff, which is not typically a simple thing to do in in my peer county. So, they often look to Oaklair for that. Does that answer your question? Yeah.

Should I keep going? Sorry. Um, okay. So, back to the deadlines. uh we have to have this intergovernmental agreement in place by March 31st and then there has to be implementation by June 30th and um the intergovernmental agreement can be very simple it doesn't have to spell out like all the ways we want to collaborate going forward but those can be spelled out in additionalus or contracts but they're not they are not required for the March 31st deadline um So two yeah put your put your microphone up.

Still trying to uh understand the the the math here. So the 521,000 city levy that's part of the innovation grant that the do has confirmed would likely be at least that much. Right. Where would that money go? that would go to it wouldn't go to the city, but we would so that's the only thing that the agreement needs to spell it in terms of what we have say over. So after it would go to the county or the health department and they would need to decide how to split it up themselves. So it might be used for some of the transition. It could like if they if the employees have worse health insurance under the or like less more higher deductibles under the health insurance, it could go to supplement that. It could go to pay people to tr get transitioned over. It could be for just go into the fund balance, especially if it's that higher number or I maybe and Lisa might have thoughts. I don't know if they've talked about it at all or anything. Well,

because I'm trying to understand where's the cost saving for the city.

It's really not a cost savings for the city at all. It's just trying to prevent them from getting really um decimated over years to come. So, like we don't really have a path to fund all of our departments and the health department is really important. Um, and it's it's um I'm just really, you know, I and all of us are really worried about its future and want to figure out some way to help it get to a fiscal stability. And so, it would just it's just one way to, you know, support one of our departments. And we wish to do it with more but that this was the only one that you know some of the other like if you think about other innovation funding like the library has to join up with another library and they don't have any history of working together. So it's really hard to do in a short period of time but the health department has an extensive knowledge of both the city and the county. So it's a partnership that's really strong and those are the ones that are best able to take advantage of this because they don't have to start from scratch on relationships or like culture and stuff like that. So, so it's uh uh insulating the health department from future financial wos on the city side.

Yeah. Oh, and county side. It it Well, it helps them also on the county side.

No, it just the county has the same problems that we're having. So, it's likely that from both the city and the county, they'd be facing cuts. But and this is really would be a question for Lisa, but if we if they could think of an alternative structure that has more kind of legs in terms of fundraising or contracts or like that Lisa mentioned the regional aspect like could it um be have a regional lab could it be so that's sort of like to me anyway and I would encourage Lisa to chime in but that might be something they explore through this um additional revenue like is there some way to map out a path to long-term stability and and maybe there isn't. I I just don't know. But is that something you can comment on?

Sure. Um I think in this in the model that's being proposed um that the city manager just walked through, it would be a transfer to the county. And in that um model, the county would make the decisions about how much funding and what the priority programs and services are. So they have the same structural deficit that the city does and would have to make decisions about that. The um the current structure um one of the values of it is that um the board of health and in the end makes those decisions and the levy portion coming into the the board of health for budget decisions has been um most typically based on net new construction. So the same kind of increases that the rest of the city budget and the county budget get that percent increase has been applied at the health department. That's been the historical model. the um I think related to your question um council member Serrano is that um in that model the board has been able to make a decision about what to do with that levy and and how to make sure that residents get the outcomes they need. Um we have a really strong working relationship with the county like we do the city and we you know are confident that we would have those conversations with the county board in the same way um moving forward but there is no guarantee that um the health department levy amount would stay the same in in any way shape or form. So, I think that would be entirely a county board decision based on county administrator um um recommendation. Yeah. And that's true every year, of course. So, you know, I think what we've had historically is

something a little different. And I think as um city manager Hirs has named, we we have been exploring perhaps a slightly different model, a commission model that um has been talked about a little bit that maybe is also eligible for this innovation fund, but is something that needs some more time to get some legs under it to see how to make that work and cost savings that way. Thank you so much.

I got a few. Um and just to um say though like so right now and this is in the last section right now it's structured so that the health department and also the library get are supposed to get um that our net new construction a percent increase in levy equal to our net new construction but as we all know that doesn't keep pace with the other ex like growing population growing um inflation so they are experiencing the same loss.

Yeah, loss. It's like a it's their own very they're kind of like a a smaller version of what the city the same exact thing the city is happening is happening with the city and they don't they're not insulated like so our police and fire are quite insulated because they are mandated services and they're under maintenance of effort. Um so they are not in that same category. So that's what makes them vulnerable and others like recreation and the library and our administrative departments and that kind of thing. Go ahead. Yes.

Um yeah. So my questions are uh so based so you said this this this wouldn't for for the come for the 2027 budget this wouldn't actually save yeah the 2077 budget this wouldn't actually save the city any money. It doesn't save the city money, but it avoids us having to cut them. Yeah, sure. Um, and so the innovation funding goes for five years, right? So, what happens to the funding for the health department after that?

Um, well, we're transferring our levy. So, uh, it is possible that the county could decide to spend it all on a different purpose. If they didn't, if they kept it in the same place, they would have the same dollar value. It's just that instead of me paying through the city, my city tax bill for the health department, now I'd be paying through my county at the same amount. It's going to the same place. It's just the vehicle is getting passed through the county. Um but I you know my hope would be that it they that the money would either go into could as much of it as possible could go into their fund balance which is like an endowment basically for them or and or could be used to do um uh like feasibility studies for some other model if there are other models that are more sustainable like um yeah I don't I don't know enough about that. If there is no other model then it doesn't really help. So would that mean then that so the the board of health that we have it now kind of exists because of this uh like teamwork with the county.

Yeah.

Would that model be defunct then uh if if if it was strictly the county um basically paying for the whole thing because I actually really like that. I think it insulates the the health department from sort of short-term political minations. um in a way that you know like we saw during we saw during COVID like that that that type of health thing became becomes incredibly politicized and it it feels to me like that that model kind of insulated them from that to to a degree and let them work a little bit more scientifically as opposed to politically if that makes sense. I think the thought would be that I mean and again this is up would be up to the county with the health department um that they would look to try this what John said was that they would explore trying to transition to this commission model so it would be semiautonomous similar to the airport but like yeah once we we wouldn't have any say over that so there's no guarantee that that would happen

I don't think uh the commission model has been explained can can someone just like in two minutes kind of explain the commission Sure. Um in and it is just an idea that was being explored as one option. Um the airport commission exists as a as a specific governmental agreement between Chipua County and Oaklair County with very specific parameters around it. How much funding, what the board looks like, who the what they're in charge of. and um it has been proposed to look at potentially a model like that for the health department. As far as I know, another one doesn't exist like that. The only three models in the state that are in statute are a city health department, a county health department, or a city county health department. Um, and I think there might be, you know, some options to look at structuring a board of health or a commission that could potentially serve similar functions to what the board of health is doing as far as authority and responsibility and uh, a little bit of removal from the political environment. That would be an entirely uh Oaklair County Board decision once um this proposed move happens. It wouldn't be um you know it wouldn't be the choice of anybody but the county board whether or not they would explore that. The board of health as it exists now in a county structure. So my colleagues in other places um those are either um purely advisory committees to the county board or to the county administrator. Um there is some structure in state statute about what a board of health has to look like. You know what kind of membership but it is very different than what we have now and the authority and responsibility and oversight is very different than what we have now in state

statute for other boards of health. It's again why um this health department has and Madison Dayne have been fairly unique in their ability to do things because of the way they're structured. Sure. Um what would happen to the part of the city of Oaklair that's in Chipa County if this happened

that yeah that's another thing to figure out. Either way we got to figure that out right now because that is a an issue. So by statute as a county health department um our department if we were at the county would no longer have um the ability to enforce or to um provide services unless there was an agreement. So when Stephanie says when city manager Hers says that there's you know that would have to be figured out that um city of Oaklair Chipua County would be um something we'd have to work through but we wouldn't have any right now we have statutory authority because we are a city department if that makes sense but if we were no longer a city department then that would have to be worked through separately but it it is an issue because as our we understand it our Chipua Oakclair city of Oaklair Chipua residents also pay for the health department in Chipo County. So, they're being basically paying twice for health services. So, it's something that's on our to-do list to figure out anyway. I mean, no matter what happens, we got to figure that out.

But, for example, the event district, they pay their licensing fees to Oaklair, not to Chipua, even though they sit in Chipua County. So, that revenue is not paid double. They pay it to us because we are their licensing agent. Okay. Thank you. Uh yeah, Larry. So the county has to approve what you're saying, right? So this is Yeah, sorry. What about if they don't approve it?

Then we just go back to the drawing board or we um maybe consider for a future round. I mean, we don't we don't know. So, so basically the next steps are I am just feel so strongly to try to do what I can to move this forward because it is a lot of money and I really am struggling with all the cuts that we're making to different all these really important groups citywide. So, I would love to see it happen um and would love to do whatever like work is required. Um if it can't happen, it can't happen and um we'll keep thinking. But so basically the next steps are John Johnson is on vacation. I talked to him right before he left for vacation and he said, you know, if the city wants to act to try to move this forward, he's okay with that. Um the county board would have to um uh have a special meeting. I put a special meeting on for for March 30th. So if they were if if the county administrator says, "Yeah, okay, let's give it a try." Then they could call a special meeting for March 30th and with joint with us and we could all sign the IGA and then continue planning after that. Um if he's like, "No, it's just not going to work," then I guess, you know, we'll probably just let it go. the the city can act unilaterally in that we can uh change our ordinance so that it no longer includes the health department which kind of triggers the county having to do something but we probably don't want to do that because it's a little bit um you know that would be a little extreme

thank you I've already asked some questions I do have another one but

um so the intergovernmental agreement that will be required to set us up to a June 30th transfer. Um are there things that the city can ask in this IGA for instance like you know if by us initiating this transfer you know we are transferring levy to the county um you know that didn't get them more things but you know gives them control of that but so like uh work session here Erin um said that you know when you don't have the buffer of the board of health anymore you can have um changes that are done that can be political but could we put in any sort of agreement like you know if we transfer it you know they need to keep keep certain programs for the duration of the five years that will give them the the uh innovation grant or they need to have a commission within one year or something like that right

because you know there's things that the county really gets out of the health department like you know the well testing and the food insecurity they have more of that in the county than the city there's things that the cities get more like um you know women's health and uh you know STD treatment stuff like that one and you know it's theoretical that you know they can say well you know this is more of a city thing than county you know, and they they nix it. So, so I'm just looking for ways that the city can protect protection for its residents when we do an IGA.

Uh, I think that's a great question and I don't know the answer to it. And I I will say that this whatever the IGA is that the county and the city might sign on March 30th if that really happened, it might not be too super detailed. So, it might be something we'd have to work on after or even over a year or two or whatever of planning and strategic planning. Um, and it might have to just be kind of a um on a handshake kind of thing because if they don't really want to sign it anyway, then then we're not in a super great negotiating position

or would there be time between say March would there be time say between the March 31st and June 30th get some more solid? So if it you could always we could always reverse course between March 30th March 31st and June and July 1st. Yeah. Because because right now, you know, having, you know, the county and city really can't do too many things in their own. They So the good programs that the board health the health department has, it's they're kind of locked in the place because neither one can really take those away without the other one. Yeah. City being gone, the county can right be more political and I'd like to see some way to protect that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great question and I will ask the attorney about that.

Okay. I not sure. I'm gonna count on my colleagues to tell me. Clara, don't ask that. I feel like I'm gonna um ask it. Put uh Lisa on the spot here, but what does Lisa think is best to do? And I'd like to I mean you've already described some pros and cons but do you feel like there's an overall and again if that's if that's a conversation maybe had better had later that's fine too but I I'm just not as close to it. Um

is that a bad question help me? You know, in the end it's um the city county health department was formed by the city council and the county board at the time and those bodies saw that there was efficiency and some um some professional neutrality by having a board of health run things rather than a city council and a county board. I mean, there there was deliberateness in setting it up that way and having that having eight bosses for my position that were people that were designated the way they were.

Um, and as I've already described some really positive outcomes from that. I think there are it's been a long time since that ordinance those ordinances um built the health department. I think we are in very different financial times now and we as um city manager Hirsch indicated you know we all have a structural deficit. So we've been we've been finding new resources by doing a lot of grant writing and cutting positions. So we've been doing both and um that's really hard because you can provide fewer services but we've had to make those tough choices what's mandated and do it. So I think funding is always of interest. I think um the my health department team said, "Well, this might be the first time, Liski, you weren't saying go after all the money." I think we've learned with COVID and other short-term funding sources that short-term funding is short-term funding. And so, I really have been trying to focus on what is the long-term benefit for the people in Oaklair for health outcomes. And I I do struggle with um because we haven't had enough time to explore what might be a really creative model to improve what we have now um

to figure that out. So, um I think that um the conversations that we've had um with the board of health and with um city and the county have talked about taking a little bit more time and looking potentially um at um using this funding in subsequent years. But of course, the real risk is that then there's funding not available. So I think um in my position I would say it's you know the board of health is the ones to give you feedback and Josh is your representative um on the board of health. But we we have a lot of strength. Um we don't want to make a quick change just for some quick money. Um and we want to have an improvement. So our ask of council and the county board is to really think through how how can we do that? Um and um it is a lot of money as we've talked about and there's you know there are challenges. So those are all absolute pieces of the puzzle. Um yeah.

Thank you. That was great. Is there anything else Claire you want to say? Nope. Uh I guess Aaron then. Yeah. Um, I guess I'm I'm really uh really hesitant to to just, you know, put a nail in the coffin of something that's been around for 85 years and has has worked really well. Um, you know, the funding thing is is is certainly a concern and, you know, if if if nothing changes, um, you know, over the next decade, we're going to see like so many things just get hollowed out and be a

a shadow of their former self. Um, and honestly, with the exception of the the short-term funding that might happen um with this, I don't know if if that's a long-term solution either. You know, like like you were saying, it's it's a it's a short-term um funding thing. That being said, you know, whatever we would have to to cut and whatever uh the county would cut would almost certainly be at least one or two positions. Um I don't know how easy something like that is to absorb if you just like axe a pro a little program here or spread it out or it's not really my purview. That's the board of health and yours. Um, but I guess my concern is another another concern I have is just that, you know, if we do this, we're kind of locked in for at least five years, maybe longer. If if, you know, if the the political situation in the state next year looks, you know, much better, um, and some things start getting fixed. Part of me is wondering if we're if we're going to regret having done this. Um, it's not really a question, just just some uh just some pontificating, I guess. And obviously a a legal question that you may want to ask, but it is my understanding from statute that once um a city county health department um is no longer a city couldn't re-enter that agreement or couldn't have its own city department. It's a you know kind of one in and done. So it might be a decision and I I know again might be a legal question to ask but it's my understanding that that would be that that would be the

decision. Um, and then the county would have some decision to make about whether they'd want to enter a commission model, which might engage the city, but that city county health department by statute, the way it's written, if I understand correctly, would be um would not be an option then moving forward. Larry, my question to Corey. To Corey. Yes. Okay, Corey. Cy, I look down here. They said transferring about 60 employees from the city to the county. How much money from the health side, insurency side, and the payroll side will save?

No. No, we don't. We won't save any money because we're trans we're the money follows the people. Okay. So, we're instead of us Yeah. It's just it's no it's a net. It's there a zero for the city. Okay. That that's Thank you for I'm sorry, Cy. Did you want to answer? is correct. And I just see that Janessa's here, too. So, if you've heard something Janessa, that you want to chime in, please, please. Oh, sure. Yeah, come on up. You can come sit at the table even here. I'm good. I have a nice cozy seat in the corner there.

Uh, I guess if there are specific questions, I'd be happy to speak to something. Um but otherwise Lisa's most recent comment on uh forming a city health department, she's entirely correct. We could not do that. We would have had to exist prior to 1994. So we can't go back and create a department. Was there another legal question that somebody had? I I have a followup to that, I guess. Um like 10 years down the road if things are looking rosier, can we go back to a city county health department? I don't think we can do that either under the statutory. So this is I mean think you know the statute could change certainly and that's possible but without statutory change we're locking in Oaklair for the foreseeable future

to not being part of the health department. Yeah. And that's how I think Lisa said there's only one other you know Madison Dane is the only other hybrid uh department in the state. All the others there are some a few city departments but otherwise there are county departments. Uh I know council member Miller had a question on um making the contract contingent on certain conditions. We can certainly build something like that in uh so that we were only agreeing if the county you know agrees to certain conditions we can certainly put that.

So could one of them be to create a commission that has some role for the city and other community? I mean because like you think about Altuna is growing faster and faster. So that's another entity that's maybe someday we'll overtake Claren population. Um so like where where do they figure in and that kind of thing? Um I think in order to to do a commission and build that in as a condition you would have to have them do it before the transfer officially would take place. So they would have to do it in the next few months which would not be but at least they wouldn't have to do it by the end of this month. Right. So that's a possibility. So that is I guess the scenario is you could try to create a commission before June 30th,

right? Okay. So, so the commission be created or like the agreement for a commission have to be created by June 30th? I think the commission if you wanted to make the transfer contingent on that, the commission would actually have to be created by then because our legal responsibilities would have to be handed over to the county by then and and we couldn't reclaim them. And then um I guess you kind of tacitly said answer the question. So currently there exists cities, counties, and city county health departments, right? Uh commission exists, but there's no law that you can point to saying that it can't exist. I mean, the commission is that a legal option as far as you understand? I I

Yeah. Uh, and I know the county, um, because it wouldn't be the city working on it, so I haven't delved too deeply into it, but I know the county has been working with u a law firm that provides, uh, legal advice for counties, uh, to develop an agreement that would create a commission. Okay. So, they're they're looking at it. Thank you. Uh let's um do you want feedback at this point or are we waiting till tomorrow or

I just want to point out too that the last section of this is that this year we're proposing to cut 100,000 from the health department. Last year we did not give them their p their net new construction increase. And so just to keep that in mind and then when you talk about $100,000 cut excluding the net new construction that's an even bigger one because the county matches that. And so just like the um Josh was saying at the border health meeting, it's you you know just to think about like the two sides of it is there's risks. There's two options and none are great. Neither are good. So and it's possible that you guys will decide to restore some of that 100,000, but we're also cutting 100,000 from the library and then even more from the recreation department. So it's like it's very hard because there isn't really other places to to cut from that are not equal in a different way. So yeah. Okay. Sorry. Uh Erin first. Oh Clara. Okay.

I I was just going to give my feedback as I understand all of this and I understand the math and I understand what kind of it sets us up for the future and frankly the political implications of this. Um, hey Clara, I I I had another question that might influence your question. Please ask your question. Ask your question. No, here in a second. Um, so if we transfer Never mind. You already answered the question for we don't get any real savings. It's just protecting the health department is not really helping the city. So So even if we transfer library and community services are still looking or recreation are still looking the same cuts because it's just we're not saving money. We're just protecting the health department basically,

right? Because the health department's mission is part of the city and our needs. It's helps our community and we we know that like yeah 1.7 million is going to be a lot of vaccines and a lot of like home visits and a lot of policy papers and all that and

and you know and just to keep in mind too that we're looking there will be future things too like if we could figure out a way to have a countywide library that would have to happen. If we can have countywide EMS that's going to happen. So it's like there's more of this stuff unless there's some windfall that we don't know about yet. there's more of this coming. So, we're going to have to be doing a bunch of this kind of like imperfect um navigation of like future long-term partnerships that are not like don't feel that great. And and I'm really happy that the county has been a good partner and is is willing to not shut this stuff down. So, So, sorry, Claire, I thought I had a question, but I actually didn't. So, back back to your summary. Question, right?

Yeah. Um when is the next round of innovation funding? We don't know anything about a future round. So they um there's an expectation that there will be one, but we don't know what the deadline will be, what the you know, what the parameters, that kind of thing or if it'll I mean I don't I don't know if there's a chance it won't happen at all, but we don't know anything about it. And then is this is this I guess it seems to me like if I was a state legislator thinking about innovation funding, it would be more to funding fund merges mergers than separations. uh you know what I mean?

Well, it's it I really think that I wouldn't overthink the innovation funding because it just ended up as like this as like many many things coming coming out of the state. It's just the result of endless back and forth and back and forth. So, it just said, look, we got to get this out. Let's just do this. So, I wouldn't overthink what the goal of the program is. We we we've been in regular touch with the DR and they've told us what's possible. And then and then my final question is with you know it it seems like you know I I don't have a a magnifying glass on the internal workings of the city but it seems like we got like 25 Lego sets that we're trying to put apart or put together on one giant table and all the bags have been opened already. There's just like

Yeah. And I'm I'm wondering if the amount of work that's going into this right now when we have like so many other things that need to be done is worth it. I think that is because it's an like right now we don't have a path to this department getting to stability and they're really critical service. So we're trying to keep all these places afloat and have their mission continue. So, if we can do it, if we can get to the March 30th 1st deadline, uh, I'll be happy. If we can't, then I don't know. Then that'll be a future thing to sort out. That's 15 days.

Yeah. I mean, it's just, but it's potentially $1.7 million. And it's our county is our closest like physically closest and our closest collaborator. We have all kinds of shared services with them in all different departments. And I feel like if we can't get this pull this off with the county then to to to shore up this department then it's discouraging to me, you know, but I mean this is your guys's decision. I I just I just personally have been losing so much sleep about this budget situation and I I don't want to let leave any money on the table, you know, that could be going to help people. Yeah.

Yeah. help me to understand a little bit our director are we taking we're going to cut 100,000 from the city but the county you're going to give give us 100 you going to give you guys 100,000

so according thanks for the question but according to the current ordinance um the the amount of levy that we get is split by equalized value so the value of properties in the city versus the rest of the county. So when um the city decreases their levy amount, it proportionally would decrease the county levy amount. So we've estimated that right now because we don't know what equalized value would be, but we've it typically is, you know, a a a proportion that if a 100,000 would be gone from the city, about 70,000 or so would be gone from the county. So the net loss in that situation would be from both of those. Plus, if we were remaining with the city, we would have the 15% health insurance increase that other city employees have. And if we were also um again that employer of choice doing the um cost of living increases and the step increases like city employees get, that would be an additional cost. So all of that is packaged into a what is a structural loss in addition to the the loss of funding. Does that make sense? So it's about 200,000 in levy gone plus a gap of um because of the all those increases.

So my followup question which healthy department is a huge so which area will be affected most? Yeah, the the question about area is um a difficult one. We every year with the board of health work through what's mandated and where can we reduce FTE because we've had to with that same structural cut. This would be a bigger one that we would have to do that and I you know we haven't yet explored that for 2027. We usually do that in that May June time frame. Um, so we haven't yet looked at that, but our we have um I don't has this group seen the program cost summary? We have a document that exists with all of our programs and services and it shows what's mandated and what we do in the city and the county and we would have to go through that and really again reook it again at bare bones statutory mandates.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And then um question I had uh for either Stephanie Lisa. Um so the county um I think they have a meeting it's not on their agenda for this week. Um would the county have any time to act before we had this theoretical joint IG meeting at the end of the month or I mean I suppose they call special session. I know the administrator's been out for a while. Um, have we got any feedback maybe from the the county board chair or is it kind of No, no real feedback from them at this point.

Uh, they have a county board meeting tomorrow, I think. So, I guess if the city if the city council is like, "Yeah, go for it. Do what do what all you can." Then I mean I would talk to John. You guys could talk to county board members. They could hold a special meeting um on that whenever they could schedule it or on the 30th. Sure. Yeah. But they have not done anything at this point. Not to my understanding. No. I got one more quick one. Um, if you had to guess, if you don't have the exact numbers, what what percentage of your budget currently is spent on mandated services? So, like what what is left for there to cut from? You know what I'm saying?

I'd probably have to get back to you with a percentage. Um, we do have more than 50 Oh yeah, more than 50%. Definitely. And it, you know, I've talked to city council members before. We have in Wisconsin, unfortunately, a really unique situation that we get almost no state funding for our mandates. Almost nothing. Um, and that does mean that for mandates, we rely on levy and not just Oaklair, but every health department across the state. So,

it is um it puts us in a really tough position. Um we also use uncertain grant funds for mandates and so does the state health department. So it is a um well more than 50% of our budget um is um is funded by levy and um is is funding mandates. We also um really focus our grants on either mandates or specific community health assessment priorities. So that's, you know, that's how we we don't, you know, do things unless we can really focus it in on those on those priorities and the mandates that we have.

Thank you. So I think Stephanie, I think you're asking for feedback.

Um, I first want to just really acknowledge the the intention here is looking under every rock for money. When when constituents ask me, "What what are you guys doing about the budget? What are you doing about the budget?" I'm like, "We're looking under rocks. We're just looking looking for any kind of money we can we can find." So, I appreciate that and I see where that innovation funding seems attractive um for keeping the health department more whole than the the the foreseeable uh landscape as being sort of, you know, all these employees being part of the city and getting city health benefits and all that. hard, you know, hard situation, but I I don't I don't feel like we have a compelling case to proceed here. I really don't. Um, I think so much of the county residents reside in the city of Oaklair and I really feel an obligation to our constituents as city and and not that we I mean I know we have a our county board which is also representing city residents, but um I'm I I think it's um it doesn't feel right to me to hand over such an important important important role completely to the county which has a quite a different political makeup than the city where they're going to have different priorities. You know, we in the city are looking at more urban issues and different kinds of things. I think Josh, you you you know made that point that they're going to be different kinds of priorities and um I feel like we we're lucky to have a seat at the table to be partially funding. Once we are no longer funding, even if there's a commission or whatever, if if it's not part of our levy, I think we really lose a voice in

terms of what the what the health department can do. So, I I I don't feel like it's compelling and and again, this is short-term money. Um, and then, you know, the possibility of losing other regional funding, uh, you know, because of our current structure because we are city county that it gives us the ability to have more um more options for for grants. I think I heard that. That was a good question, Erin. So, I just don't feel like it's a compelling case. And also same thing, we're we're spending I know a lot of time and energy trying to get this done and trying to do our best like to bring bring good ideas forward, but I don't I I'm just not feeling like this is going to protect the health department.

Well, I can go. Um I share many of Clara's concerns on this. Um, I also like next year is going to not be great for a whole bunch of a whole bunch of municipalities, departments, you know, everything, right? Um, you know, everybody's just looking at just you see the waterfall coming, right? It's like, what are we going to do? How how can we stop this? Um, but if if things change after that, I think I would much rather have had or have the opportunity to to rebuild something collaborative under the current model with with more stable funding than than not, I guess, in addition to in addition to what Clara said. And, you know, I Yeah. So, I guess I'm I my I would I would say probably not to this right now. Um if if if we can get more things like lined up for the next round of of u innovation funding and and everybody's like, "Yeah, we got this. Moving forward, fine." It just, you know, it just feels really really fast. you know, two weeks is not a lot of time to make sure we have all this stuff. Like, I'm sure I'll get out of here today and I'll be like, "Oh, five more questions that I wish I would have asked." Right. Um,

you can come back tomorrow. I'm planning on it. It might just be the same four of us again, which case, I don't know. Be quick.

Um, but yeah, uh, so I guess I would say, you know, I'm I'm interested in hearing more about this commission model. Um, I'm interested in seeing what sort of pieces can be put together and maybe if everybody's on board with with something different once we get to the next round of innovation funding and and we can just here it is, you know, every uh eye is dotted, every tea is crossed, and we're ready to go with it, then, you know, great. And I'm just it's it's 85 years of of Oaklair history and it it seems like you know that people always ask me I shouldn't say always people have asked me it's been like six people you know they're like you know Oakclair seems to have some sort of magic about it um you know compared to some other places and I don't know what it is but you know I think the the sort of like level of collaboration that we have might be part of that and it it not not something I I'm I'm eager to dispose of I guess. So

yeah, put your mic on. So for me I I really enjoy this discussion and uh as I always I prefer the committee to be included in this conversation. I I don't think it's a good idea for us city council or county board to make a decision without the input of the the residents. I think for the last whatever you said 80 years 85

85 the city and the county they have had a good relationship and uh there's there's an old saying which says if the car is running well you don't need to to fix it or you don't need to take the mechanic if something's running well what we can modify it but we don't need to destroy everything that's what I feel those are for me those are the things that's involve the community and let if there's few things we need to modify, we can modify it. But to to change everything to like account instead of the the joint agreement, I think is I I I don't think it's for me right now. I don't think I would agree with that. Yeah. Thank you. Well, Erin earlier you asked like you know what's the what's the goal of this innovation funding like you know it should be like you know keep stuff together and then break it apart and it's about collaborative and then I think that actually this is just it's a mechanism to limit the scope of government footprint and uh you know have governments do less I think it's um I'm I find anti antithesis to what we should be doing and for more sources I think it's um the border revenue making us do less with less and if they really wanted us to do good stuff they would fund cities better. They fund counties better. We won't have to sit around here hunting for scraps over who gets what and how to shift this around and you know beg for five years of money and then have it all blown up in the end. So I'm pretty again love just saying this. So that being said because we don't have that choice here we have the cards we're given. I'm probably going to disagree with u you know I've been on the board of health for the past three years and you know I see all the good work they do and this is a crummy deal but if we go with it they're going to get up to $ 1.7 million of funding for the next five years. What comes after that? We don't know but we don't know what happens if

we don't cut them off after you know five years as well. Um you know community input this is kind of part where buck the buck stops here like we're the elected officials so we got to make a decision. So, I mean, I appreciate, you know, getting feedback, but I think we need to make a decision. Um, you know, it doesn't feel right. I'm getting worked up about it, but Stephanie in case you have to go in and crunch some numbers like, "Well, if you don't this one, where are we going to get the money?" And this doesn't give us any money.

Well, okay. Sorry. Yes. But the health department will get this extra. They will get the money. So, I'm conf I'm a member of the, you know, board of health and I see what they do and this will protect the board. So, you know, it's not about the city, it's about the board of health. what is best for the if they get the $ 1.7 million per year for five years. We're not gonna get that if we don't do this and they're gonna get slashed. This will give them $1.7 million for the next five years. So, and also we need the county to weigh in on this as well. We can't move forward without the county doing it. So, I think we should and if I think we need to take the prudent steps to prepare something for the county. The county might come along and say no, not understood and then nothing happens and then we're back to where we are now. But I think we should take the steps to at least draw up the agreement to have something ready. And if the county wants to go with it, then we can talk then. But just to say no and close this door at this point, I think that would not be wise for the protection that the health department would get from this. So I'm in favor of moving forward just drawing the paperwork and have something to present to the county. Um, you know, going back to square one, this shouldn't be a thing. we should keep our 85 years of, you know, intergovernmental partnership, but um I think we're going to have negative health outcomes in our community if we don't pursue this line of funding here. So, I don't like it.

Okay. So, how about this? That was all really helpful, I think. And um tomorrow I'm talking to John. We're meeting with the administr some of the administrative people here to talk about like what would actually be the mechanics. We'll talk again tomorrow. Maybe there'll be additional people. Maybe you have more questions in the meantime. Um and then yeah, we'll get to either go, you know, inch forward or don't inch forward. Um that sound okay? Um and yeah, and just as a reminder, like we're presenting you with options and it's just extremely challenging. So it's going anything we say no to there's at the end of the year we're going to have to get to a point where we've said yes to about 20 things that are that are really painful. So just keep in mind that you know just keep that in mind because that's really where the work is coming from is us trying to queue up these projects and they are all bad and so when we present them people say no and then we say okay well we'll go back and then we pick another one and then get that work and then plus you it's really hard to do community engagement because community engagement takes a lot of time and so like you can't even get to the point of community engagement until we get some kind of like anyway it's just takes the whole thing is is very hard. Okay. So, I'm going to switch to Hobs because we do have one ICE person here.

I do just want to say I really appreciate that the difficulty here. Yeah, I really do. I don't think there's a right answer and I don't think there's a wrong answer. There's just the best that these guys especially and all that. So, just to point out there's a bunch of health people. Raise your hand if you're a health person. You want to point out your staff here, Alisa? Do you want to just introduce your staff?

Sure. um with and many of you know the group but in the back is Courtney Spurber who is one of our managers for policy and system. Tagen Ruland is our um as it does all of our internal operations including HR and IT. Um Hannah is uh in the row next to Marissa. Hannah is our finance um manager and then Marissa Stanley is the assistant director. And it is about the people. I mean, we've been talking a lot about money and programs and services, but it is um as you all talk, whether it's about Patrick's programs or the programs that the health department is, you know, all of that is the people that do the work that are impacted obviously by the decisions. But thank you. And if any of you have individual questions, certainly reach out.

Okay. Thank you. Is that all right if I scoot now? Thanks. Uh okay. Um, let's do HOBS and then we can save soccer for tomorrow. Um, and do you want to walk through the Do you want me to do you have it?

Thanks, guys. Have a good afternoon. Did you want me to slide through this pad or do you want to I'll do it and then because I might be faster. Okay. Go give this to Jeremy though. Do we have a a time limit today? Um, what do you got? You want to go till 5:15

or longer? I'm free until I know not everybody likes what's on the What's on the docket for tomorrow? I don't know. Okay. I mean, it'll probably depend on if it's other people, right? Like if it's four of us again, then we could just not I don't I don't know. Oh, is is it going to be like the same thing? I thought so, but it took a long time to get through the first thing. So, I I don't know. I'm not sure. I thought like health today and something else tomorrow. I didn't realize going to be the same thing. It's not quite that well organized. All right. Okay. I'm going to just go through this pretty quick. Does anybody else need to hand out? No.

Um, so in this case, this this Hobs and the soccer park are sort of similar. They're both train they would both be transfers to nonprofit user groups. Um, Hobs, you can read about it here. Um, has a lot of very very active user groups. Um, it's I that didn't know this, but I learned it by reading it. It's the largest ice facility in western Wisconsin. In northern Wisconsin, too, or is there a bigger one north? I would say northern also. So, there you go.

Um, there's also dry floor events like here we grow consignment. Um, and they they helped contribute to some of the renovations. Is that right, Pat?

Correct. So, the going all the way back to the mid70s. Uh, 1975 is when the facility was built. That was a collaboration between Oaklair Youth Hockey, the city, and the Hobbs Foundation. That's why the facility has the name Hobs Ice Arena. Um the Hobs Foundation was very active in the community in the mid70s donating quite a lot of money to all kinds of different things around the area. Um coincidentally the ice facility in Altuna is also called Hobs Sports Center. So there's differentiation there but same foundation helped create both. Um so you know kind of the same as the collaboration with the city and the county health department. There has been significant collaboration in the beginning and then all through the years for 51 years at Hobbes with us as the city operating the facility and then the groups who helped create it and and use it actively using the facility.

Um so this next section shows you the um the there it's like a very shortened budget. Um the biggest one particular line is the debt. So we're paying on debt for prior improvements. However, there are also a lot of capital like future anticipated capital needs. So if we were to to plan to use this for the next 20 years. I don't have a dollar figure and I don't know if one of the finance people do but or or Pat but or Dave but um it's like in the millions to do you know how much it would cost to make bring it up to? it would be significant and I would hesitate to put a number on it without right

an updated analysis. Good idea. Okay. So, and then because Pat is so amazing and his whole team they have been and the user groups have been involved they have done an amazing job of recovering the cost of operating it. So, they get nine almost a million dollars in operating revenues. Um but oh 1.1 million is oh expenses.

Oh okay. Well I don't know. Pat has a clarification but basically there is still some subsidy. Um uh but mainly it's this capital. I mean if there weren't the capital if they weren't trying to maintain these like I guess ice is pretty expensive to maintain because it requires big chillers and stuff like that. So if they weren't trying to maintain that then it would be a great it would be like break even but since we are and since there's a lot of deferred maintenance that's kind of raises a question. Um so we are proposing to can I say the name of the partner? Yeah.

Okay. So we're proposing to partner with um Oaklair you youth hockey um and then they would be the operator of it um and they will and there's like parameters that we're trying to work out. Um, in this case, we would transfer the debt payments to them um and give them the innovation funding. Is that right? Yeah. So, there's 25% is 330,000 a year in innovation funding or about 1.6 million in five years. So, they would they would um Yeah.

Sorry, could you go over that portion again? So with working with Oaklair youth hockey, what would we you said that I didn't quite follow. Can you just repeat that last section like what what would the arrangement do with as far as the funding with our partner? You go ahead.

Sure. So the the debt service we'll call it is $400,000 and that is inclusive of debt payments from the 2009 renovation at the facility and then a 2019 renovation at the facility. Um so as as uh city manager Hirs was indicating if it if it weren't for those operationally HOBS would be in the black. Um, so the the idea with the innovation grant funding is 25% of the expenses. So for using even numbers, if that was $1.2 million, that would be $300,000 of grant funding. The idea is that that would be transferred to the operating transfer party and then they would make the payments on the debt and then there would be still a little bit of a gap to make up amongst the the involved groups to get to the difference between what the city has currently been supporting HOBS at and the revenue that has been getting generated by the groups plus the debt service amount. Does that help?

Yeah, true. The true the numbers are kind of close to each other. I didn't realize which number we were talking about. So, thank you. Can I can I ask my clarification so say it in my words to make sure I'm I'm on the right track here. Um, so I see 400,000 in debt service. So we would transfer that debt payment to the new entity and they would get we think we're projecting a grant funding of 330,000. So they would make up that deficit somehow. What happens after five years? That's my question.

That debt is only will be paid off by five years. But the expectation is that that that these five years are planning years and so there is a long-term plan developed for rink for ice in the Chipo Valley. So basically they'd be increasing their revenue to cover the gap within five years. They would find a way to get more revenue.

Um Pat might be the best person to talk about this, but there is over the years there's been a wish to have a new ice facility. Um, and so the question is, do we invest in HOBS as a as an ice facility given that it has a lot of capital issues? Um, or do we build new and but how do you make that plan because it has a lot of different user groups and I don't know, can you say?

So, couple questions there. Um, from the group's perspectives on the revenue side, they're already doing things like partnering with community organizations, charging participation fees, those kinds of things. So, they would be in charge of their own revenue. Um, currently we charge them to use the facility. We also bring in some advertising revenue that we generate ourselves. Um, on the expense side, one of I think the main opportunities that the groups would be able to take advantage of is similar to what we've already done with the concession stand where um, Oaklair Youth Hockey is utilizing volunteer membership of their people to run the concession stand, expand that model to the overall facility, and they would potentially be able to take advantage of that model to do things like cleaning in the building and all of of the things that we are currently doing as staff. Um, in in theory that could also be applied to operating the resurfacers, maintaining the ice and and all of the things um that we as city staff are currently doing.

So that's how they would make up the gap. Correct. But I still don't understand what happens in so the debt will be paid off in five years. I'm not actually the breakdown between the two. I'm not overly familiar with the debt service of HOBS. I'd have to double check uh to be honest, but um I wouldn't be surprised if that debt service would be paid off within the five years. I think that's a really important question to Well, the thing is we haven't really been investing in Hobs, so that's why we why it is district decreasing. So, I guess the main thing I would worry about is future capital expenses,

right? And so I don't it wouldn't I mean I guess in five years if nothing else happened we could go back to the current state. Um, but it wouldn't we would just be still stuck because we have to have an infusion of investment and I believe they also don't have enough space, right? Yes. But I think that's a a I guess a different discussion than the operating transfer, but I think everybody involved at HOBS if there was more ice time available would be using it for sure. Got it. So, so the city would save $400,000 in our operating budget that we're paying right now in debt service.

Uh, that's fine. General funds. And what we're paying is the difference between the net of operating revenue and operating expenses, which in 2025 was about 148,000 net positive. So 2025 operating subsidy was about $250,000. So that's the number that would potentially be saved or roughly that number in this arrangement but plus additional like but that underounts what we should be doing for capital investment. Right. Correct.

I'm sorry. Um taking the capital investment off the table for right now. I'm trying to get a handle on the operating. You're saying there was a net positive 150,000 in 2025. So the city actually only put in 250,000 to make up the gap, but in fact the debt service still remains at 400,000. So we would still transfer that debt service to the other organizations. So it still would be a net 400,000 for the city's operating budget. They get the extra 150,000. Um you know maybe their gap is less because of

being that 250 I I think let's that's a question that's too challenging for my brain at the moment but but we can try to understand it. We can try to get under let's maybe we can thank you. Yeah, I I would like to kind of see on that

um is there any way Well, for two two two questions come to mind right away. Is there any way that we could do um like more of the concession model without this? Like is there a way to to cut costs with having volunteers do custodial or whatever? Is that not something we could do with without without this program? Do you know you see what I'm asking? It it is certainly something that we could explore. Yes. Do you think it's something that that anybody would be interested in? I mean, who wants to go clean an ice rink, right?

Yeah. And then there are 48 or 49 toilets at Hobs. Don't ask me why I know that number off the top of my head, but um yes, that is certainly something that could be explored. It is a model that exists at other ice facilities nearby in Chipua Falls, for example, and other areas of Wisconsin. Um but it is something that I I think we would need to have uh discussions with the groups about to work through with them.

Sure. And then my second question is like uh I guess I'm asking you to to speak for somebody else's state of mind. So if you don't feel comfortable doing that, don't. Um do the does the user group like want to do this or is it like it's either this or we have no control over it at all and so we'd rather have us have control over it but would really rather not do it at all.

Yep. Well, I I won't necessarily speak for the groups. I can't do that. Um, but I think everyone would agree that nobody really wants to be in this situation. No different than the discussions that we've had previous to these with the health department, for example.

Yeah. I I I just want to share too that since before I got here, so as you guys know, I'm almost to four years, this was the disposition of hobbs was queued up, which is why I don't think there's been an investment. So I have sometimes I hear like, oh, what if somebody came with X check and acquired HOBS, then it would be a very very sudden change and there wouldn't be an opportunity to plan together. Maybe there would still be, there might still be. Um, but I think no matter what, it's possible that something will happen with HOBS. And so like this to me seems like a kind of a an off-ramp or on-ramp or whatever.

Uh, just to see the obvious for the record for anyone listening, we're the city's not selling hobs. We are transferring operational um responsibilities to another entity. Yes. Okay. Just state that for the record. So people are concerned that we are looking at the sale. Sorry. Okay. Yes. Uh you're you you were talking.

Thank you. I am still talking now. Um so I'm sorry someone asked this before. So you know for the five years we get the you know 330 330,000 a year for five years and then just I think we said this earlier just to repeat it but then at that point that would end. So then the organizational group that has control over HBOs would then have to have found a model by which they could uh continue to operate in the black without this innovation grant funding. Is that the the plan over the next five years?

I mean my hope would be that well I don't know I guess it depends on what we think is the future of development in that area. It's in San is in a TID that um we need funding around it. So, um I think this is for a future discussion. We just don't know what the ideal what the best case scenario would be. But Josh, if I could interrupt you here, um the debt would be paid off in five years. That's that's an important Yeah. What about the debt? Because, you know, sometimes we diss 20 years. I didn't know how much how long this debt is supposed to go on per year. I think we need to ask that million dollars in debt. I would just allow the finance admin staff to provide the true number. Sure. be good.

I I'm inferring that the 2009 renovation would be paid off within the 5-year period because my understanding is it was a 10-year bond with a balloon payment at the end back in 2009 and then that balloon was refinanced for another 10 years. So that would be within the next 5 years, but I'm unsure as to the specifics of the 2019 project. But also if we put in another 20 million then of course we would have a new debt and so then that would be the question. Yeah Michael and I can poke away at it and get an answer back to you guys tomorrow. Doesn't have to be doesn't have to be super detailed. Just you know broad broad brush strokes if you can.

Pennies to the pennies. I know you can do it but I don't want to make you do it. There are no more pennies. um without doing this, do you think there are things that can be done at HOBS? You know, either additional fundraising from user groups. I know that a lot of sports parents already spend a ton and athletes spend a ton of time on that.

Is that like a reasonable expectation that we could potentially get some more of that? Are there you know I know we had discussed uh you know paid parking you know if we have if we have that at uh at hobs for you know con um tournaments and and things like that like how much closer do you realistically think you could get us to budget neutral?

Sure. Well, um I guess if I had to choose, I would be quickly figuring out revenue potential unpaid parking as opposed to potential other alternatives. I think there's 188 spots in the front parking lot at HOBS. And um I think Christy and anybody else that's there can attest that it's basically full all the time when the place is open. Um, so I I think we could come up with what maybe like game day only or event only revenue could potentially look like. Um, again, I I don't want to speak for the groups, but I would imagine that something like that might be more appetizing uh to look at as a first potential step. Um, I guess was there a second part of your question? I'm sorry. Um,

just, you know, I I just Oh, advertising sponsorships. Yes, there that's also possible. Um, you know, the the groups, they go out and do that thing on their own for themselves essentially to help supplement what they pay us for ice rental rates. Sure. And then we do some of our own internal solicitation. It's really parks and wreck as a whole and a big chunk of it happens to be going to HOBS with people that have dashboard signs and things like that. Sure.

So that is another potential avenue. Um and I I guess in the context of things I I would offer up you know if we had to for the groups you know that they can potentially go out and find money for themselves as well that turns into advertising in the building too. Do you are you representing one of the the groups? I don't think we can have a public comment. I'm gonna talk to you afterwards. Yeah. Thanks.

Yeah. Thank you. So Patrick for me what I I think what I would say as somebody who deal with sports you know there's I know for sure and even her she knows that there's a lot of business out there's a lot of parents who who have money who can contribute to this hub so that that fund that could be paid I know for sure And I think you know there are people contributing. So if we have that one then I think it would be good. I think she knows about that one too.

I just I just want to point out though that in our recreation department we have Pat Claire Pete who maintains the facility and Christine who runs Fairfax. So we don't and and Pat is also increasingly going to be tasked with like working with visit Clara on our tourism master plan, our Riverwalk, um the court plan and stuff like that. So there really isn't we don't have bandwidth to do more than we're doing now. Like just so that's partly why we I anyway and I just want to say Pat is like this is his whole life. So he wants it to succeed and has a lot invested in it and uh but we don't um this is why I was thinking anyway if the user groups had more you know autonomy then maybe they could pursue ones that we wouldn't be be have the cap capacity to

can I ask you so what about the city allow like their group somebody to frontier to work to volunteer yeah to solociate the money are parts of the like running the Zamboni and cleaning bathrooms and stuff. Yeah, I can do that. Seems like insurance or risk management might have a problem with volunteers driving a Zamboni. Yeah, I think there's probably layers to the level of commitment, right? You know, cleaning is one thing and um

the ice work is different. Um doesn't mean it can't be done that way because it is in in places. But, you know, I'll I'll use Chipua as an example. They're an associationowned facility and operated by volunteers, but they still have an ice arena manager who does all of the main stuff. And so, that would continue to have to exist in the uh in the operational transfer model. Um, you know, the there are things to consider with like you indicated in in liability and risk management and things to to work through here. Um, so lots to consider for sure.

Go ahead. Oh, I was gonna I'll reformulate.

All right. Um, so in one of our previous conversations, we had talked about that the city would still um pay insurance in the interim. So is that sort of comprehended in this chart here? I think that this includes our insurance, our debt payment. Um, and so they would pay No, I don't know. We have we have to look at it, but basically we um there's some things that we would keep because we're holding on to the um capital maintenance. So, I don't know if insurance is one of them or not.

That's what I'm wondering. Again, I'm kind of trying to in other charts we said it was 300,000. Here it looks like the debt service if we transfer it 400,000. I think we just don't quite know until we work out these details, but it's somewhere between 250 and 300. It's similar. It would probably be along the lines of the innovation funding, the insurance that we would No, no, the savings. Okay. because I thought we had said we'd transfer the whole debt service. The thing is we have to transfer the debt because otherwise it's not elig if we don't transfer it then it's not eligible to receive the innovation funding. So it's kind of like a little bit of a

I think that's a good one. I think it's a good thing to transfer but okay I'm just trying to understand the scale of what we're talking about. So what happens if the user groups can't make the debt service payment? um like you know if if it's transferred over uh they get the you know the debt service is let's say 400,000 the um innovation grant is 330 that's still 70,000 to make up what happens if if they don't

well they currently has about a million in operating revenue so they should be able to uh make the debt payment if for some reason it all falls apart then it would just come back to the city. It's still our facility and we would But how does that I guess if we're transferring the Put your mic on if we're transferring the debt load then how does it come back to us? We're just like another No, we just they're paying the are paying our debt. They're paying on the debt. So if they stop paying the debt, we would pay the debt. It's still our debt. Okay. We would get the innovation funding somehow. No. No, if we don't have a partner, we don't get the innovation funding,

right? But okay. So, it would just go it would just wash out. All right. Are you looking for anything else or just Yeah, feedback. I mean, you know, we Okay. Yeah, we can come back tomorrow.

Josh has something to say though. Well, I was going to say, you know, we still own the facility and, you know, if we can get $330,000 a year for five years and, you know, theou topics, you I know there'd be one community partner that owns it, but you know, other we, you know, everyone else will get to use it as they are now. And I don't see any bad drawbacks to going forward with this. I like it, but I like I would like to see us get really transfer that $400,000 of debt. And like we kind of talked about at the beginning that the user the the operators would make up that difference between the 330 and the 400,000. That 400,000 transfer sounds very I think that's compelling. Larry, you're going to DC?

Oh, you cancelled. Sorry. No more.

Okay. Well, well, you guys keep thinking on this. Um, thank you for everybody for coming and um yeah, we we well and then soccer park is similar and different, but um Hey, uh, Corey, I don't want to stress you out. Is there is this something you could have for tomorrow, do you think? Yeah, Michael's already poking away at it. So, I think we should be able to have it tomorrow. All right, cool. We'll be able to collaborate with accounting as well. So, I just like I like good data. Thank you. Appreciate it. Okay, guys. Thank you all very much. Thank you. Thank Thank you, Stephanie and staff.

If you can give out a better version of this.

I'm sorry. 2 years.