City Council - Regular Meeting

Seventh meeting of Mount Vernon City Council in order. Please call the roll.

Mr. Mahan. Here. Mrs. Hager.

Here.

Mr. Miller. Here. Mr. Severance. Here. Mr. Jacklin. Here. Mr. Ruckman. Here. Ms. Keener.

Here.

They are in session. The invocation this evening will be given by Reverend Baker from Christ the King Church. He's also a Mount Vernon police chaplain. We appreciate your service to the police department also, Pastor. Please rise to the invocation and remain standing for the pledge.

Lord, thank you for this city that still allows prayer to be made. Lord, I would ask for your wisdom to be here tonight, your understanding, your compassion, and Lord God, most of all, that you would take the things that are said and done here tonight, and it still, Lord God, would be pleasing in your sight. For I ask it all in the name. that is above every name. God, now please listen to our plea that you might be pleased with us, your children. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

Amen.

Thank you, Pastor.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Council on your packet are the minutes from the July 13th meeting.

Are there any additions or corrections? I'd ask for a motion for approval.

So moved. Second.

Been moved and seconded. They be approved. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed nay. They are approved. Are there any petitions or communications?

No.

And council on your packet were the committee reports from four committee members. meetings for your review. I see no liquor control licenses or proclamations. We do have about 10 people wanting to speak on matters of public concern. These will be limited to four minutes each. If you're going, I see there are several on the Glock cameras, Glock cameras. If you are saying the same thing somebody else is already saying, we don't need to hear that over and over again. So please watch those comments and make sure we're just not being repetitive. The first person is Joshua Morrison. Please come to the podium and state your name and address. Josh.

Thank you.

Here we go.

All right, my name is Joshua Morrison, 101 North Rogers Street, Mount Vernon, Ohio. First, I want to acknowledge the flock camera system tonight was spoken at committee. I appreciate that. I want to let everyone know, though, this conversation is very necessary. This didn't start tonight. It didn't start two weeks ago. It started January 4th. I use the normal channels of communicating with my government. I sent emails, contacted every member of city council, I ASKED QUESTIONS. I FOLLOWED UP. I GAVE THE CITY OFFICIALS MULTIPLE CHANCES TO DISCUSS THIS WITH US. EVERY CHANCE WAS GIVEN TO THEM. I ALSO SUBMITTED PUBLIC RECORDS TO GET MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS SYSTEM. AFTER MULTIPLE ATTEMPTS, OFFICIALS HAVE DENIED MY PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST AND STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS. THAT IS A PROBLEM. TRANSPARENCY DOES NOT DEPEND ON COMFORTABLE QUESTIONS. Oversight is not an attack Accountability is not an accusation And during all that while the questions were unanswered the requests were denied the cameras kept working According to the city's own transport transparency portal the network records a hundred and thirty thousand vehicles in 30 days Those are just not numbers Those are people going to work, taking their kids to school, to the doctor, just living their daily lives. Now let me be clear. This is not being against law enforcement. They need the tools. But having money available in a budget is different than authorizing a permanent citywide surveillance system. This system was implemented without a public hearing and without a recorded vote. Yes, you did get funds and you did approve a grant. That's not the same. So the question becomes, what kind of community do we want to become? Do we want to be a community where technology like this is quietly implemented and we're just expected to live with it? Or do we want to be a community where decisions like that are openly discussed? We've seen why oversight matters. You've seen the trash bags on the ones in Dayton and Cleveland, and Columbus has now changed their policies. Policies on paper did not stop the problems. Malvern's transparency portal indicates more than 200 law enforcement agencies across the country have access to our data. Responsible government creates safeguards before something goes wrong, not after. This is after. AND I HAVE BEEN TOLD, AND I DO HAVE FRIENDS EVERYWHERE, THAT I CAN BE SOMEWHAT ANNOYING. AND THAT'S OKAY. I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE MY GOVERNMENT COMFORTABLE. WE'RE SUPPOSED TO ASK QUESTIONS, CHALLENGE YOUR DECISIONS. I WOULD RATHER BE ANNOYING AND PERSISTENT THAN TO STAY QUIET WHEN SOMETHING GOES SOUTH. NOW I'VE HAD MY OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TONIGHT. QUESTIONS ARE ON THE RECORD. I'VE SENT THEM ALL TO YOU. Later tonight, you'll have a chance to remark to the folks here. I hope you do not waste that opportunity and address these concerns and the concerns of our neighbors. These are straightforward concerns. They've been collecting data for years. The answer should be easy enough to come by. And for y'all, I hope this is not the end of the conversation. This is just the beginning. Government works for the people. Remember that. The people deserve a voice in deciding what kind of community we become. Thank you.

Thank you. The next person speaking is Dylan Foster. Please come to the podium and state your name and address.

Thank you. I'm Dylan Foster, and I'm 11850 Upper Gilchrist Road. I want to start by pointing to this room. You needed extra chairs tonight for the amount of people who are interested in this topic, and I hope that that has made its point very well clear. That alone tells you that residents want to say in how this system is used. I appreciate Chief Morgan laying out what these cameras are and what they aren't, and I'll agree with him on the facts. Still images, no video, no facial recognition, and 30 days of retention. I'm not here to dispute any of that, but notice what all of those are. They're assurances the way the system runs today by good practice, not written policy and not anything that we can verify. My ask is simple, to put those safeguards in writing and add an audit so that they outlast any one chief in any one administration. Right now, there is no written policy and there is no audit. A few things that the chief said that deserve a clear answer on the record is he said that the data is not sold. I believe him, but selling was never the concern, sharing is. So the question is, has Mount Vernon PD opted into any of the flock sharing networks, one-to-one, statewide, or national? Because he also said that this system is only accessible by Mount Vernon PD. That's only true if we haven't joined a network. If we have, other agencies can search our data, and only MVPD is no longer accurate. That's exactly what happened in Dayton, where over 7,000 searches of their cameras by outside agencies violated their own policy. He also said that the system gathers no electronic data. Can he confirm that covers devices and Bluetooth signals and future software upgrades, not just today's setup? These systems get new features pushed to them very frequently, and SignalTrace is making a deal with Flock right now. He said an officer needs a case or citation to run a search. That's great, but nothing verifies that. The system trusts whenever it gets typed in, and no one reviews that. An officer could enter a made-up case number or a real one that has nothing to do with the search, and the system would probably allow it. That's not a hypothetical. It's actually exactly how misuse went unnoticed elsewhere. The requirement existed. The checking did not. A rule with no audit is an honor system. And he said that no one at MVPD has been cited for abusing the system. I believe that too, but there's no audit. So there's nothing that could produce a citation if there is no audit happening. You can't catch abuse that you're not checking for and that no one's been caught is not the same as we looked and it's clean. An audit is what would let the chief make that claim with proof behind it. And so for the council, two things specifically for you. It appears that this contract already auto renewed last fall, which means that waiting for renewal may not be an option until 2027. But I did look at the agreement and on section 11.16, it lets the city end it with 30 days of notice and no penalty simply by not funding it. So a review does not have to make us wait. So the ask is a formal review of this contract, a public hearing before any renewal or expansion and a written policy, one that closes the immigration enforcement gap requires justification for every search and sets up a real audit. None of that removes a single camera. It just means a system this size finally has public input and oversight, which until tonight it never did. Good intentions are not oversight. And I'm asking you to build that oversight. Thank you.

Next is Alexis Ansel. Please give your name and address at the podium.

Time's up already.

Hello. Good evening. My name is Alexis Ansel, and I would like to take a few minutes to talk about the flock camera situation.

Could you give us your address, please?

Oh, 11850 Upper Gilchrist. I apologize if I repeat a few points that other people have made. So Chief Morgan says the city has spent roughly $57,000 with LOC since 2023, almost all grant funded. But his own numbers don't match public reporting. Knox Pages recently cited roughly a $7,000 grant for 2025. Morgan cites roughly $25,000 for that same year. Residents deserve one reconciled number on the record. A resolution accepting grant dollars is not a vote approving the program those dollars paid for. On privacy, over 152,000 plates were read here in the last 30 days alone. Our own contract names exactly who this data reaches, the FBI, NCIC, and several out-of-state databases, and allows disclosure whenever the company has good faith belief, if necessary. not just under a warrant. The same contracts lets the vendor use our data to train its commercial AI products indefinitely. Morgan also says the system doesn't gather electronic data, but a company called Leonardo now sells an add-on called signal trace that layers onto flock poles specifically to track phones, air tags, and smartwatches. I'd want that confirmed off of our roadmap on the record. Chief Morgan says nobody has abused the system here to date. I take him at his word, but that's exactly why oversight matters. Nationally, a 2026 Institute for Justice Review found at least 18 cases of officers using these systems to stalk people they knew personally, almost none caught by audits, all caught by victims. No abuse found and no way for abuse to happen are different things. researchers have also found real security flaws in these systems nationally including exposed live feeds we can only confirm our own protections by asking in public which hasn't happened yet the contract also lets the city walk away with 30 days notice no penalty if funds aren't appropriated so council already has a clean way out if it decides one is warranted So my ask echoes mr. Foster's and other people who have spoken today make this hearing real Require a council vote before any future camera goes up review the use policy so residents can actually trust it This isn't about whether the cameras stay or go tonight. It's about whether the next surveillance decision here gets made in public or made for us again Thank you for your time today

Next person is Michelle Mood. Please come to the podium and state your name and address.

I just need my own timer. My name is Michelle Mood. My address is 10624 Jacobs Drive, Mount Vernon. I followed my husband here 35 years ago. My sons went to Mount Vernon City School District. My older son is teaching at KTC right now to adults working towards their GED. Moving here was the first time in my life ever I lived in a community for very long at all, sometimes only one year. I was a freeloader. Until I came here, I had no idea how much work it takes to create a community, to make it function. The institutions, the foundations, the volunteers, the heart, the soul, the time, I had no idea. And I think Mount Vernon should be very proud. What I've seen since 1991 is incredible. Small remote communities know how to pull together and make things work. But a drawback of a community like ours is limited resources, limited personnel, and a lot is put on you, the leaders of this community. As the gentleman talking about the construction said, we are human, we have human problems, and we have limits. So we all have limits. So when a new service comes along, it makes sense to use something that can relieve your burdens. I understand why Flock made sense. However, Mr. Scott Charlin pointed out how it has been misused in practice, as have others. And people have mentioned how many license plates have been scanned, even though there's only 60,000 people in this county. 150 license plates, that's not a targeted police tool. That's a mass surveillance on ordinary people going to church, to work, to school. One thing I learned making this community my home. I've just bought this retirement home to age in place with my two disabled adult sons. We value freedom and privacy. Don't tread on me. My home is my castle. We don't want government breathing down our necks. So what a surprise, then, that this technology was adopted without community discussion. Only three people approved, Safety Service Director Tanner Sollers, Chief Morgan, and City Director Rob Bruin. Hi, Rob. I request four actions if FLOC is to be continued. One, publish audit logs showing every outside agency that has ever searched Mount Vernon's camera data. This is something to help our community police our territory. Pull us out of statewide and national lookup Completely. Right? This is our data, our community. Require cross-checking the search with the case number to make sure it was justified. As you just heard, victims discovered abuse. The top lawyer of Flock has said the most common misuse was officers looking up their ex-wives. Four, a public hearing and vote before another dollar gets spent. These four safeguards do not stop legitimate local policing. They simply build a necessary firewall between our daily commutes and an unregulated national grid. We want our freedom and our privacy. Demanding audit logs and documented cross-checked case numbers ensures that the tools of the flock cameras are strictly used for actual Mount Vernon crimes, and limiting them from being connected to a national database also makes that the case. They're not personal lookups or warrantless federal overreach. Thank you. Thank you.

Next is Sally Bowen. Please come to the podium and say your name and address.

My name is Sally Bowen. I reside at 2821 Burger Road in Mount Vernon. I wanted to start with just a couple quotes that mean a lot to me. Ben Franklin famously quoted, those who would give up liberty to purchase a little safety deserve neither essential liberty nor temporary safety. And on the heels of that, from Thomas Jefferson, the greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution. I think both of these apply to the flock issue. I only fairly recently noticed the flock cameras in Mount Vernon in all fairness I was shocked to learn that only a few people here as already mentioned had signed the contract with flock back in 2023 and The fact that our elected city representatives were not involved in the decision. I'm appalled by that I'm ashamed for the community by that that should never have happened Although the police chief has stated that only sworn officers of Mount Vernon can access the system to pull flock data, any law enforcement agency, as has already been discussed, can share data from our cameras in the city as long as it is in compliance with our policy here in Mount Vernon and flock safety's policy. And in turn, we can access data from cameras outside our jurisdiction. The saying that the Constitution was written to restrain government behavior, not that of the citizens, really applies here. I think it's time to reconsider our contract with Flock. I'm not one of those who say, I think, we need to have parameters. They need to be gotten rid of, in my opinion. I think we all should have been consulted before they ever were put in place. Although the city and our police department will tout the cameras as being wonderful law enforcement tools, it's estimated that only 1% of info collected actually goes to solving crimes. The other 99% of info was captured and is being stored here for 30 days on innocent law-abiding citizens who have done nothing wrong but happened to drive by a camera and unknowingly had their info captured. Our city utilizes Flock Falcon cameras, which on Flock's own product pages, they're touted to not only be, quote, capable of 24-7 detection of license plate, but vehicle models, colors, other visible characteristics, such as aftermarket parts and bumper stickers. Flock states that still images plus, quote, vehicle footprint metadata are processed locally and sent to Flock over a cellular connection. Interesting to note that these cameras have Bluetooth and Wi-Fi radios already built into them, and they can easily integrate with what's already been discussed, the Leonardo technology called signal trace, to pick up info from any device in a car, or someone even walking by, if you want to go that far, that's wearing a smart watch. Their key fob, their pacemaker, the tire pressure sensors on your car. This is ridiculous. And though we're not tapping that, I have not heard, that we're partnering with the Leonardo on top of the flock. The fact that this is exactly how intrusion into our privacy, this is exactly how it starts. Like China, we're copying their infrastructure, people. We are. This is exactly how it started there, where they had the cameras up. It's no secret how their citizens are under constant surveillance, almost like being in a digital prison. And the sad part is, we're paying for our own digital prison. that's that's that's not acceptable tracking there led to credit scoring systems for compliance then that led to public blacklisting and shaming every movement is tracked there's no privacy there's no freedom and who they're with what they do their schedules where they spend their money it's interesting to note that flock's condor camera i know we have the falcon but i'm just going to throw this out there the condor camera now that flock is pushing capable of tilting and zooming in exactly what you see in China. They already have it. It's here in the U.S. Then what will be next, all under the guise of increased citizen safety, and let's discuss Flock's new Alpha drones. Can I just say, Americans' Fourth Amendment right to be secure in their privacy does not disappear just because of new technology or artificial intelligence.

Next we have Dave Serino. Please come to the podium and say your name and address.

Hello. My name is Dave Serino. I live at 149 Plymouth Road, Mount Vernon. And mine should be fairly brief. These were paid for with grant money, as I understand. Are there names behind the grant money? Can we find out? You don't have to answer now, I'm just, okay. And I think it's sort of been mentioned now, but do we know specifically what agencies, state, federal, have access to the camera data? And I guess I would ask, again, it doesn't have to be answered now, but what can the Mount Vernon Police do now with the cameras that they could not do before? And this is, it's related, but unfortunately it's a private entity. I just recently learned that Lowe's installs solar-powered flock safety cameras in their parking lots. Being a private entity, you know, we have no say in the matter. Thank you. That's not your time.

That was an accidental.

That's not your time.

You're welcome to continue. I'm done. That's all I want. Thank you.

All right. Two timers going on at the same time.

All right. Cancel those.

Next we have Rebecca Abbott.

Rebecca Abbott, 100 Oak Street. I'm going to make three points that nobody else has yet made tonight, and they are the ease of hacking, the psychological effects of surveillance, and the value of small communities standing up against the spirit of the age. Everybody who has spoken so far has really shown their age. My daughter, when she was nine years old, taught herself coding and has just finished her freshman year at Ohio University in cybersecurity. You want her on your side. It is incredibly easy to hack into almost any website there is. Most young people are doing this for fun all the time. This will not show up on any audit. The words about having protocols in place, about having safeguards, about having audits are incredibly earnest and naive. And the question is, so what? No matter how many protocols and safeguards you have in, if the information is there, it is being hacked. The second point is the psychological effects of surveillance. We're just now getting around to the psychological effects of social media. I no longer have a cell phone. It was listening to me all the time. I would encourage all of you to give up the cell phones. They are listening to you all the time. And it is not worth it. People have said, how can you give that up? The convenience. The safety aspects. It is wonderful. I have peace in my heart and my spirit now that I am no longer carrying a cell phone. Nobody has investigated the psychological effects of surveillance. Somebody, somebody is going to make a very sentimental and maudlin statement about perhaps these cameras will save a child who's being kidnapped. Nobody has thought through the conditions that cause children to be kidnapped. And do those have anything to do with the intense anxiety of living in a society under this kind of surveillance? Are we creating the conditions in which children can be harmed? The third point here is that we are living in a spirit in which there, we are living in a time in which there is a massive tsunami of surveillance for people who are paying any attention to the National Defense Authorization Act and Section 219, which our representatives have passed and which the Senate is voting on right now. The goal would be to fuse national military intelligence and all of our databases with Israeli databases. As far as I can tell, the United States would end immediately. We would immediately be giving up our sovereignty. There would be no way of getting that back. And the response of many people may be, Well, in the face of that, what do flock cameras even matter? This is a drop in the bucket against this tsunami of surveillance that we are facing right now. The answer is that it is small communities who make up the United States of America. We have to take a stand against this massive tsunami of surveillance that is going on around our country and around the world. We have to put our foot down. Thank you.

Thank you. We're moving now to a new topic with Bob Beck on NCA TIF.

Hi, my name's Bob Beck, 10 Woodside Drive, Auburn, Ohio. I want to thank Council for having this meeting earlier today to discuss the NCA and the TIF. But to me, it seemed like it wasn't long enough, only a half an hour. And I feel all the questions are still there that I really didn't hear any answers. And I think it's odd that A lawyer for the city is the one who's standing up for the developer and trying to explain why we're doing things. And that is my main question, is why are we spending tax money to help this developer make more money? You know, the term infrastructure is thrown around, but I looked at your site earlier today, and there's a spreadsheet, and it's gonna say everything that this, how much this has cost in the developer. Bottom line, it's gonna cost him less than seven and a half million dollars to do the development. And he's asking for eight million of our money? And infrastructure to me all along, people were talking roads and sidewalks. When you look at that, there's gonna be a blurb for roads, sidewalks, curbs, little divots for wheelchairs to go, cars to go through, less than $2 million for the roads and sidewalks and curbs. So again, I would like the council to really dig into this and see why are we doing it. And bottom line is, Will the developer not follow through or will he still make money and he's gonna follow with this whether he has our money or not? And when I was here earlier this month, I had a question about the schools and I would really, you know, it's been stated that the schools are gonna be made whole. Can the city clearly explain how this process works? Because I got my tax bill just last week and a chunk of it goes to the schools. I don't know if the schools receive the same funding they otherwise would have, how does the developer still, get money to do his stuff if you if you're saying the money goes to the developer but you say it goes to the schools but it's not going to the schools i guess i'm one i'm just still confused um i didn't get answers but i appreciate you you know a half an hour just just wasn't long enough would you consider postponing this vote and having maybe a You know, a longer meeting, maybe somewhere else we can get more people and, you know, slides and such to explain to us how this and why. Just really, why? Why are we spending our money to, when other developers, you know, off of Gilchrist Road, all these places, they developed. They spent the money, and my gosh, they made money hand over fist. Why do they need the city to do this this time? Thank you.

Thank you.

The next topic is the cremation garden. We have Ivan Kegler.

I'm Ivan Kegley on 44 Columbus Road, Clinton Township. I am considering the cremation gardens. I went to Dannemann Elementary School and who's to say an irresponsible griever spreading the ashes on a windy day doesn't blow down to the elementary school? Okay, that's all, that's all. I just want you to take that into consideration.

Thank you. Our final person speaking on matters of public concern is Richard Larson, discussing recycling.

This topic is not controversial, but I do appreciate the comments in regards to the city's government and the person and sovereignty of the division.

Can you state your name and address? Oh, why should I have to? The plot has to.

Never mind. My name is Rich Larson. I live on 128 Claremont Street. I'm one of two houses that live on that street right now. It's a new development in Gilchrist Estates. Anyway, I want to thank the city before I ask this question. The recycling facility that Mount Vernon has for the last two years is really good. And I do believe... IN RECYCLING, I THINK THE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE THAT DO RECYCLE IS QUITE LOW IN OHIO AND SHOULD BE MUCH HIGHER. BUT YOU DO PROVIDE THE SERVICE FOR THAT, EXCEPT THAT RECENTLY IT'S BEEN A MESS.

ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE THAIR ROAD FACILITY? YES. THE COUNTY FACILITY, SIR?

WELL, THE COUNTY FACILITY, SO THIS IS NOT THE PROPER FORM FOR THAT. I'M SORRY ABOUT THAT. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT. ANYWAY, I JUST WANT TO LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT IT IS A MESS RIGHT NOW AND SHOULD BE ADDRESSED. Thank you.

I do appreciate. And he said I didn't realize it would be like September before that by reopens and he'll be free of charge for people that residents of Knox County. There will be a charge for those for the city and for people living outside the outside the county. And so it is an issue getting rid of a waste. Council, in your packet are the rest of the agenda for tonight. Are there additions or corrections to the agenda?

If not, I'll assume it's approved by consensus.

And we'll go now to resolutions for third reading. It's resolution number 2026, day 74.

A final resolution enacted by the city of Mount Vernon, Ohio here and after referred to as the legislative authority slash local public agency or LPA in the matter of the stated described project.

Mr. Severance. Yes, I move to adopt the amendment 2026-74.

Second. I move to second for the adoption of this resolution. Any discussion? Mr. Severance.

We have discussed this. Mr. Sawyers, do you have anything to add about this at all?

No, sir.

This has to do with the whole project that is going to help our city. We commonly hear it as the state route 13 project. It's the state route 13 project.

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Mahan. Yeah. Mrs. Hager. Yes. Mr. Miller. Yes. Mr. Severance. Yes. Mr. Jacqueline. Yes. Mr. Ruckman. Yes. Miss Keener.

Yes.

Resolution is adopted. Now we move to resolutions for second reading. First one is resolution number 2026, day 78, Mr. Sherman.

A resolution authorizing the safety service director to dispose of property not needed for public use by the city of Mount Vernon and declaring an emergency.

Mr. Jackman. I'd like to give this its second reading.

This resolution receives a second reading. Moving now to resolution for first reading. The first one is resolution number 2026-81. Mr. Sherman.

A resolution to donate surplus Mount Vernon Police Department property to another public entity and declaring an emergency.

Mr. Miller. I'd like to give this its first reading and request a two to three minute committee meeting.

All right. This resolution receives its first reading. Final resolution for this evening is resolution number 2026-82. Mr. Sherman.

A resolution authorizing and directing the auditor of the city of Mount Vernon to make supplemental appropriations and to pay bills pursuant to section 5705.41d then and now certification. Mr. Mahan.

Thank you, sir. I move to suspend the rules requiring three readings and take resolution number 2026-82 to its third and final reading.

Second. I move to second for the suspension of the rules and discussion on the suspension.

Yes, sir. The reason we're requesting a suspend is we've got several bills to pay. We have a for our esteemed lawyers, Ricker Graydon, and he did work tonight and we need to pay them. My understanding is that there's been some trouble getting the bills to the right people within the city and they're trying to work that out. We've also got, we purchased food from a local vendor for pool concessions. And Mr. Brinkman, you want to help us out with this, the larger number, 625.

We're just discussing the suspension of the rules.

Yeah, but there's the reason why we're asking for the suspension of the rules. I'd like Mr. Brinkman to speak on that.

Yes, Mr. Mahan. So the largest one is concerning a payment for ODOT, which is $625,000 for the construction of the Route 13 project, which I believe we get $6 million in return for the 625, the city portion of that. And that's a then and now for a couple of reasons. The first is that we don't know exactly how much we're going to have to front until we get the invoice, so it's hard to prepare for that. The second is that we used to, my office used to do things a little differently, really before I got here, and some of the departments didn't view these as being allowable, and we looked into it, and they are, so here we are. And the other final piece of it is for a gentleman that's retiring from the street department who, uh, for his employee final payoff, actually the longest serving employee in the city currently.

Any other discussion on the suspension?

Mr. Sherman, Mr. Mahan. Yes. Mrs. Hager. Yes. Mr. Miller. No. Mr. Severance. Yes. Mr. Jacqueline. Yes. Mr. Ruckman. Yes. Miss Keener.

Yes.

Roll is suspended. Mr. Mahan.

Thank you, sir. I move to adopt resolution 2026-82. Second.

I move to second for the adoption of this resolution. Any discussion? Mr. Mahan? Further questions, council?

You said that you found out that they're then and nowable, I think was the term that you used. Who did we talk to to determine that was the case and hadn't been paid?

The outside auditor for the city's audit. Okay. We asked him about it. We've heard from him. Reimbursements weren't. There was really no logical reason why they shouldn't be.

Who's the outside auditor?

We have Clark, Schaefer, and Hackett. And then we sometimes refer to the local government services arm of the auditor of state. But this one was Clark, Schaefer, and Hackett that told us that.

Council, we always use a third party auditor. And then if necessary, we will use the local government services from the state auditor's office. Prior to Mr. Brinkman and the small stint with Mr. Mayville, We utilized the same firm for 14 years.

Not Clark Schaefer and Hackett.

Not Clark Schaefer and Hackett. It was another firm. With that same firm, we found that there was a little bit of, shall we say, a malaise that took place. And because of that, there was some... Discrepancies is the polite word to use off the record. I will use impolite words. But... After that, Mr. Brinkman is being polite and saying prior individuals that sat in his seat, prior individual that sat in his seat should have been bringing these things forward in a more proper manner, and now they are being done with more sunlight.

Any other questions on the resolution? Mr. Sherman.

Mr. Mahan? Yes. Mrs. Hager? Yes. Mr. Miller? Yes. Mr. Severance? Yes. Mr. Jacklin? Yes. Mr. Ruckman? Yes. Ms. Keener?

Yes.

President is adopted. Now we move to ordinances. The first ordinance is for third reading. It's ordinance number 2026-23. Mr. Sherman?

In ordinance consenting to and approving the execution of a TIF agreement between the City of Mount Vernon and residences at Founders Grove LLC for the benefit of a development located at 12050 Upper Gilchrist Road.

Mr. Jacklin.

I would like to move to postpone the vote on this until our next meeting on August... 10th. Thank you, Mr. Sellers. On August 10th.

Second. Second. The 10th is a Sunday. Oh, the 10th.

Were you seconding that or were you saying August 2nd?

I'm moving to second that this ordinance be postponed until August 10th. Any discussion on the postponement? Mr. Sherman.

Mr. Mahan.

Yes.

Mrs. Hager. Yes. Mr. Miller. Yes. Mr. Severance. Yes. Mr. Jacqueline. Yes. Mr. Ruckman. Yes. Ms. Keener.

Yes.

The ordinance is postponed. Next ordinance is ordinance number 2026, stage 24. Mr. Sherman.

An ordinance approving the application to add certain real property to the Mount Vernon new community authority district and amends the petition for establishment of the Mount Vernon new community authority as a new community authority under chapter three, four, nine of the Ohio revised code and declaring an emergency.

Mr. Jacklin. I would like to move to postpone the vote on this until August 10th.

Second. And moved and seconded to postpone this to August 10th. Any discussion on the postponement? Mr. Sherman.

Mr. Mahan.

Yes.

Mrs. Hager. Yes. Mr. Miller. Yes. Mr. Severance. Yes. Mr. Jacqueline. Yes. Mr. Ruckman. Yes. Miss Keener.

Yes.

The ordinance is postponed to August 10th. Next ordinance is artists number 20, 26, 26, Mr. Sherman.

An ordinance establishing two incentive districts and declaring improvements to certain real property within the incentive districts to be a public purpose and exempt from real property taxation identifying certain public infrastructure improvements made to be made or in the process of being made that will benefit or serve the parcels in the incentive districts requiring the owners of those parcels to make service payments in lieu of real property taxes establishing a municipal public improvement tax increment equivalent fund for the deposit of such service payments in lieu of real property taxes, approving and authorizing the execution and delivery of a tax increment financing agreement with Arista Villas, Mount Vernon LLC, and other agreements, and approving related matters and declaring an emergency.

Mr. Jacklin.

While this is very serious, and I want you to know I take this seriously, I'm going to equally enjoy hearing him read that again. I would move to postpone the vote on this to August 10th.

Second.

And moving to second, postpone this long ordinance until August 10th. Any further discussion?

I would like to say this about the postponement of these three. Our intention is to get some plain language explanations out there to what an NCA is, what a TIF is, how these are going to impact the area. I appreciate people coming today to voice their opinion, but I would also request that, you know, this conversation happens in earnest, that as we get this information and we present it, that you're there to receive it too.

Thank you. Did we vote on that?

No, we did not vote yet.

Mr. Sherman.

Mr. Mahan. Yes. Mrs. Hager. Yes. Mr. Miller. Yes. Mr. Severance.

Yes.

Mr. Jacklin. Yes. Mr. Ruckman. Yes. Ms. Keener.

Yes.

Now I move to ordinances for second reading. That's ordinance number 2026, stage 27. Mr. Sherman.

An ordinance authorizing the establishment of a cremation scattering garden within Mound View Cemetery, authorizing the final disposition of certain indigent cremated remains therein, and establishing procedures for the care and disposition of such remains.

Mrs. Hager.

Yes, I'm giving it a second reading tonight.

This ordinance receives a second reading. The final ordinance of this evening is ordinance number 2026, page 28. Mr. Sherman.

An ordinance amending certain municipal funds and appropriation lines related to the city's public safety capital improvement program, renaming fund 407, creating fund 409, reallocating municipal income tax distributions, and authorizing certain transfers.

Mr. Mahan. Thank you, sir. I'm going to give this ordinance its first reading. Mr. Sherman, I'm going to need a 10-minute committee meeting at our next gathering. And counsel, I do ask you to read this and be ready with your questions at the committee meeting. I intend to ask you to pass this on the second reading on the 10th. This is a beginning to we're doing this in order to pay for uh some of the things at the police station the new police station so please be ready at the next meeting so that's our necessities this first reading that concludes the legislative portion of the meeting we move now to remarks administration mayor starr

I thank Mr. President and council and public. This is one of those weeks in Mount Vernon that is very important because it is the Knox County Fair. You want to see some really good things happening in Mount Vernon, I suggest that we all go to the fair and celebrate the legacy that we're leaving and these young people. who are learning about government, who are learning about hard work, who are learning about responsibility. And we'll be sitting here in our chairs one day. So please take a moment, give thanks, and go and pay respect to these young people who are investing in our community and their families. That is all, sir.

Mr.

Thank you. Mr. Sayers. Mr. Thank you, Mr. President.

Number one, I appreciate everybody coming out. Community involvement is not a punishment. It is certainly oftentimes we have these meetings and it's just us. But when we hear from the public, we definitely have to take stock of what's being asked. There are things that we can certainly do. We can always say reform what needs reformed and replace what needs replaced. Data sharing were big things that were talked about tonight, and those are legitimate concerns. The impacts of the societal impacts, which are macro things that I don't know that we're equipped to handle, but certainly we can take a crack at it, right? audits while those exist within the system the internal audits and personnel audits what do those look like and how can those be performed the chief and i can have those conversations hr and i can have those conversations with the chief the mayor and i can have those conversations in tandem with council there's also an understanding that the public the public can have on how council operates. While council may have not taken a vote on authorizing a public policy, and I can understand that that's maybe a desire of the people in this room and people outside of this room, That's often not how council acts on certain things, and you can be, you know, consider that good, bad, or indifferent, but that's not standard. For instance, we recently purchased a new round of police tasers. There was no vote on taser policy, and this is just an example. Council has the power of the purse. That is council's role in our government. It's similar in a lot of ways to the General Assembly or Congress. They can, I'll refrain from making comment on that. But just in standard procedure, that's often how that works, and they can vote by – they can rule by appropriation, and they can defund things. It's been said tonight. So they empower things by putting money where their priorities are, and they – show the same force in the opposite way, by taking money away from things that they don't want to see that movement. And we've seen that happen in certain things. So that's just a function of government. That's the government teacher in me coming out, I guess. Nevertheless, we appreciate you all coming out. These conversations will continue to happen. There is a policy that exists. It can be improved upon, and we will look to council for direction. It can be, we can do what some communities do, which completely remove flock cameras, and to that I would say consider the alternative of creating Mount Vernon as a soft target for crime

Come on, guys. Please be respectful. He remained silent while you were speaking.

So I understand that this is not a crowd that wants to hear that. But I say this for the benefit of law enforcement and the case was made. Can law enforcement do its job without these? Well, of course they can. They did it for years without it. What will happen? What is the purpose of these cameras and what were they placed to do? They were placed to... Assess things as people come in and out of the community. And if you are committing crime in another community, and you know that Mount Vernon has removed these cameras, and you are looking to, and I'll just use a crime like Grand Theft Auto. If you're looking to ditch a car, and you know that Mount Vernon is a black hole in the ALPR network, it's not, flock is like saying Kleenex, it's a brand. So if you're looking for a black hole in the ALPR network, you're going to go where there is a soft spot. That is just a fact of criminal nature.

Mr. President, I am president.

Thank you. As your director of public safety, I need you to understand there are real world consequences that come from just reading some stuff on social media. and having a knee-jerk reaction. There are a multitude of flock cameras. It was asked that we respond to some of these things and I'm responding to some of these things. There is a difference in the ALPR cameras and it was mentioned tonight. Flock has different cameras. We utilize an ALPR network. and I want you to maybe take that and research the difference of those ALPR networks versus other cameras. But good comments tonight. We will keep studying up on that because the goal, and I think we all share this goal, and we may take a different approach to this goal, but to make Mount Vernon a better community because, as has been said before, Mount Vernon has it going on. With that said, on a different... weirdly related matter um you may be familiar with the old football field or the west gambier property that is city owned as well there was an unfortunate incident related to a dog mauling the city will now be locking that property and removing, there was a receptacle for dog waste bags. We are going to be removing that. That was not a park. It was utilized for dog walking and other recreational activities. It still can be, but it will now only be used for reservation only activities because of the unfortunate incident that took place there. And I won't get into details because it's still unfortunately ongoing. We are going to need to lock down some space. or lock down that space and make sure that what happens over there is more regulated. We look to council as we move on into the next budget season to have a better idea of what to do with that location. If the idea is for a dog park, then we can properly equip it to be a dog park. But right now it is not equipped to be a dog park. There are certain things that you have to do, and you have to meet those expectations. So there's that. Additionally, we have been requested to look into e-bikes and motorized scooters, something that maybe can unite the room. I don't know. Before we make any decision, we want to have some local data, right? So we are generating a... public survey that we will share throughout that will be both online and there will be hard copies that you can pick up at the municipal center. That will be available sometime this week. We're shooting for sometime around midweek. That will collect data. If you utilize bike trails, if you utilize our parks, if you've encountered e-bikes and the various forms of electronic mobility devices on our streets or sidewalks and whatnot. So we want to, before we bring legislation to Mr. Miller's point from a couple weeks ago, before we bring legislation to council and try to fix the plane while we fly it, we want to have some data so we can drive that decision and craft some legislation if it's necessary at all. Other communities are starting to regulate these e-bikes. So we want to look at that. We have a lot of assets, public recreation assets, and we want to make sure that people are safe in utilizing those assets to the best of our ability. So that is all, Mr. President. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Brinkman. Thank you, Mr. President. I know TIFs were brought up a couple occasions tonight from some of the public comments, and I just wanted to give kind of a quick high-level thing on TIFs. So TIFs don't raise taxes on anyone. I just want to make that clear. All they take is an existing pie, any growth in that pie that would have occurred from property tax revenue, and it redirects it. a lot of that revenue used to come from schools. So take the Coshocton Avenue TIF, for instance. A couple years ago, that TIF was bringing in about a million and a half a year. When the TIF resurrected or was renewed a couple years ago, The general assembly changed what you could do with some of this TIF revenue. So before you could, you could take the growth in school, school dollars and redirect that. You can't do that anymore. They said you can't do that. So now primarily a lot of that revenue comes from what would go to the county. We'll then go to be spending whatever, whatever area the tip is in. So shock, then it's going to go to shock then. industrial area. It's going to go to industrial area. Um, so it's, it's just the growth piece of the pie that gets redirected. And now the school schools are completely unaffected by, by the new tips. So just wanted to make that clear. And that's all for me. Thank you, Mr. President.

I have nothing, Mr. President, Mr. Brian. Thank you, Mr. President. I wanted to comment on a point that was made by a-during the open mic session. The-that there are no audits of the flock data. That is 100 percent not true. I have sat with the officer who is charged with doing the audits, gone over them with how he does it. We audit not only the city employees of the police department who make requests, but also we audit the requests from other agencies. There are written policies and procedures that we do. And then the person who conducts the audit is audited by a separate member of the Mount Vernon Police Department to keep him honest as well. I just wanted to combat that piece of misinformation. Thank you.

Thank you. Mrs. Hager.

Nothing this evening, Mr. President. Thank you.

Ms. Skinner.

So I say this with all due respect to our administration and to our police department, because I know that they have the best intentions for all of our community. And I would urge everybody who is heckling a bit to recognize that these men work day in and day out, and that is how they live and breathe. But I would also say, how do you boil a frog? You don't throw it into boiling water because it jumps right out. you put it into cold water, and then you slowly turn that temperature up. And I would argue that liberties are not usually surrendered all at once, but rather in small increments that seem reasonable at the time. I do question tracing and tracking I think we are moving towards a state of minority report with systems like this. So I have real concerns and would like the conversation to continue looking into this. It is a small part of our budget. Mr. Salyers knows I like to go and defund little parts of our budget. So this will be something that I'm going to continue to have this conversation on. And I would urge council to keep an open mind, listen to the public, and also continue to do research. I think that there are big questions connected to this. And enjoy the fair. That's all, Mr. President.

Mr. Severance. Yeah, I'd like to thank Mr. John May for his 31 years of service to the city. He was the department administrative director over the streets department. And John is somebody that, so I'm over streets. And by the way, council, do not defund the street paving. We need to fix our streets, right, public? Thank you. So, but John was very, has always been very responsive to emails or other kinds of communication to help fix potholes around the city and different things. And so I just appreciate his work and- what he's done for our city. I just wanted to mention John May tonight. Thank you. That's all.

Well, first I'd like to thank every single one of you that showed up tonight. You have a job, you have a family, you have a life. It's hard to make it here, and it's hard to be engaged. And the fact that you're here means that this is something, whether you spoke tonight on the NCA and TIFF, or you spoke on the camera system, it obviously was very meaningful. and I want to be receptive to that, and I want to respond to that. I do think that when we look at surveillance in its greater state, we are headed down a dangerous path. That is my inclination, that we are not headed in a direction that embraces freedom, there is a balance, I suppose, of what keeps us safe. What I would like to see is I would like to see the police chief, I would like to continue this conversation with the public because I think the more that we have this conversation, the more that we can boil down to what is making people uncomfortable. And when we can do that, we can build a stronger relationship between the community and between the police, and we can build a clear line of communication. So I really hope that, you know, I don't know if it's possible, but, man, if we could, if one of your lieutenants that can demonstrate enter the system and if they could give a demonstration of what it looks like, that might be something that make people less fearful of it if we decide that we move forward with it. That's really all I've got.

Thank you.

Mr. Miller. Thank you, Mr. President.

First of all, I'd like to thank everybody for being here tonight. When I called this committee meeting in regards to these cameras, I had no idea that I would see this many people show up. This is more people that showed up to a council meeting than I've ever seen at the last 35 council meetings, okay? And I'm all about... public interest and seeing people take pride and interest in what's going on in our city and it warms my heart to see that democracy is still alive and that people are participating in it. The only other thing I would like to say is I want to address an earlier concern, is that someone said we didn't want to see this start tonight and die. You know, I started this up to open up a conversation, and with the amount of support that's been demonstrated here tonight for the conversation, against the conversation, one way or another, I'm just pleased, and I personally intend to pursue this matter and open it up for more public discussion. With that, once again, I thank everybody very much for showing up and taking part in their community. That's all, Mr. President.

Thank you, Mr. President. I would also just echo Councilman Miller's statements. Thank everybody for coming out. And to further echo that, um, there are some times it is very lonely in here on council evenings. Uh, we have meetings every second and, uh, second and fourth Monday. So please nobody likes a one hit wonder. So don't show up tonight and then lose interest and move on and think that your civic duty's been done. Um, that. to echo that same sentiment, like I love seeing the room full. This is fantastic. Um, whether we agree on an issue or disagree on an issue, I would say that whether it was tips or whether it was in CAs, whether it's the flock camera issue, the fact that we're hearing something, there's some of you, I know there's some of you who, who do come. And thank you for doing that on a regular basis. But there are some of you around the room that I don't think I've ever seen before. That's my fault. I'm sorry. I should get around to more. But nonetheless, I would love to see more of you back and just love to see, I guess I would love to see more participation on stuff like that. Would love to see the continued discussion as far as the flock security cameras are concerned, whether that's more committee meetings or whatever it may be. And I'm glad to hear that it sounds like We're going to be pursuing that because it's been quite a rabbit hole to fall down as far as that's concerned to some of the research that that I've been able to do in the time that this has been raised. So and I would also just leave you with this. I I think good people can disagree on policy in the moment. What's important is that we continue to have the discussion and we make sure that it continues going on because when that discussion stops that's when things not only become difficult but they can introduce, you know, bitterness and distrust and dislike. And that's why the dialogue is important to have. Um, and that's, you know what, we're, we're no different than any of you guys. We're, we're your neighbors and you're our neighbors. And we want to hear from you on all of those issues. So please continue to reach out and, uh, continue to make it a point to have your concerns heard. So thank you again.

Thank you. Mr. Mahan.

Uh, thank you, sir. Um, encourage folks, uh, right here tomorrow, there's going to be the Washington forum, uh, talk about immigration is going to, you're going to hear from some first generation immigrants and, uh, that's, you can find that on social media. Uh, that's at six o'clock, right, right here. Right. Mr. Sawyers. So, uh, In this room, the Washington Forum. So please, if you're interested in continuing to hear about things going on and discussions around policies, this will be on immigration. So that is ‑‑ I encourage you all to come. I did vote to ‑‑ to suspend, excuse me, to postpone the NCA and the TIF, but I do think we need to get, we need to bring this in for a landing. The people involved in this deserve an up or down vote I won't vote for another postponement. I think we need to get the legislation straightened out and get as, I appreciate the way you said that, Mr. Jacqueline's plain language to help people understand what tax increment financing is and what new community authorities are so we can answer questions to the best extent possible, understanding that, whether we're gonna agree or not, just so we all understand what the information is and then bring this in for a landing. Will there be a committee meeting on the 10th for this issue?

I would like to request a 15 minute committee meeting on the 10th.

And there was talk of $7 million and $8 million and our money, whose money. I think we need to really understand where the money is coming from in an NCA. So we can all understand that and then vote on it. In the spirit of accountability, There was a resident who put out the video of the night that we voted on the license plate cameras. And I appreciate the resident who did that. And that is available through public search. It did come up. The different auditor at that time explained that it was a grant, explained it was for license plate cameras. The Councilman Hillier asked for an explanation on that. There was a short explanation that it was, just as Chief said, license plate cameras, that it was not going to be used for traffic enforcement, et cetera. They called for a vote and everyone at council, including myself, voted unanimously for that. So to the resident who said that she was frustrated and even ashamed that that is how it happened. I can't do anything but say I did that and then take accountability for that. I do support and I appreciate the safety service director talking about review of policy, stronger audits, best practice. I support studying that. The reason, and I'm only gonna speak for myself, I'm not gonna speak for the rest of council, but all of us, we voted unanimously for that. For myself, that sounded to me like a reasonable law enforcement tool. Um, the police have various tools at their disposal and that sounded to me like a reasonable tool. So if you curious as to, or, you know, there's been a lot of questions about what we were thinking or the process and, and there you have it, uh, just be very transparent. It sounded to me like a transport Tran, excuse me. It sounded to me like a, a law enforcement tool that made sense alongside of other law enforcement tools and I voted for it. I appreciate everything that's been said regarding it and I do think we need to study this as a continued tool. yay or nay, but most of you, like any strong tool, it can be misused. And I'm very interested in best practice and audits and making sure we have the appropriate fences around that. So thank you, Safety Service Director, for committing to that. And Councilman Miller for committing to further conversations. The conversations on the NCA, the comments and the topics, I do think transparency is very important, especially to the people who will be bearing, if this passes, will be bearing the burden of this, are the people who live in those developments. I do think that if there is a way to make sure they understand that they are not just buying a house, but they are also buying an NCA, expanded stormwater, et cetera. It's been a long time since I signed all those papers when I bought the house. I read every single word. just like all the rest of you did when you bought your houses, right? And so we need to make sure there's clarity there. So that conversation was brought up through the committee tonight and I appreciate that. So I think everyone's heard enough from me, Mr. President, thank you.

Thank you. I'd like to thank the meeting for being here this evening and all of you in attendance. It's good to get input from the public. That being said, I call for adjournment. So moved. Second. I move and second. We adjourn. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed nay. We are adjourned.