Finance Committee - Regular Meeting

is 700 p.m. on December 10th of 2025. Uh, and this is a meeting of the Grafton Finance Committee. Um, we do have um remote participants as well as in-person participants. So we will do roll call to open the meeting. We'll start in person. Greg Mark, Victoria Duckworth online. We have Mark Hadad present. Heather Mchugh present. I got you right as you came on. That was almost unfair. Um Dan Kosher

present. And Angelina

present. Perfect. Thank you. So, we have um as the Fencom called for this meeting uh to review the upcoming fiscal year budget a little bit earlier than usual. Um I I'd sort of like to see this as a continuation of the conversation that occurred a a few weeks ago now um between our our two uh distinguished guests, Evan. Evan and Jay uh with the the select board and and the school committee. Um we've we we know that this year we we're likely looking at a challenging budget year with a challenging deficit and this is something that we've known for a while. So the the idea is is to begin these conversations sort of early and and often um so that we can strategize so that we can mitigate where appropriate and so that we as particularly right now the the finance committee can sort of give our our recommendations and and our approach to helping tackle you know the the the forecast. um particularly as it pertains to sort of messaging and and positioning and ensuring that we're sort of all on the the same page as as we go forward. And I know there's more conversations to come with the school committee and and the select board as well. And then we'll likely sort of try calm that at at some point in the in the near future. Um, but tonight this is sort of a us being able to ask our questions and and give our perspective as as the Fincom. Um, so I' I've asked Evan and Jay to present sort of their their their latest and greatest, but I I do want to acknowledge that this is more preliminary than preliminary, you know, earlier than we

usually meet. And we acknowledge that when we do meet in February, it's preliminary budget overview. Um, so today, you know, I I I want us to look at and think about this from sort of a 50,000 foot elevation. We're likely not at the dollars and cents and and line item part of the conversation quite yet, but that's okay. uh I think a directional trajectory and understanding sort of the magnitude of where we're at is going to allow us to and the numbers they have today will allow us to start having this conversation in a meaningful and impactful way. Um so with that if I can turn it over to to you Mr. Brard.

Sure. Um mind if I kick it off? I'd love you to.

Okay fantastic. Um so thank you for having uh us. Um happy to be here to uh give you kind of a entry into our fiscal 27 budget process. Um this meeting or this presentation will be a little late on the numbers. Um I don't present to the select board until next week the 16th. Um and so I don't have any uh feedback from from the board as of yet. So I won't go through the whole thing. But I'd like to walk you through the process. We did things a little differently this year. Um and um I think that's going to create a better budget uh overall. Um so this year we we shifted our approach um and focused on performance-based and priority based budgeting. So essentially without going through all the slide and I'll provide this to fin um what we did was break the budget all the way down almost like a zerobased budget um but instead of looking just at the numbers you look at the public need uh as well as the the outcomes that we are seeking to achieve. Um the the core feature of this process, we wanted to clear uh make better goals and objectives. Um try to find ways to measure our performance. That's difficult to do when you're in a customer service industry. Um we want to link funding to results. Um increase our accountability and transparency, which I think we've already done a fairly good job of. Um and then just look for ways to continually improve and find ways where we can be more efficient and effective. Um so one of the core tenants of this is to align our resources with our policy priorities. Um so we look at what the select board has for goals. We look at

what um you know the town meeting outcomes are, the feedback that we get from residents and put that together to try to make um decisions based upon what people actually want us to be doing. Um the challenges of that which I just mentioned, they're difficult to measure. Um we can focus too easily on u measurable outputs instead of measure meaningful outcomes. Um, and we really don't have great systems in place for strong data capture on a lot of these programs, right? It's hard to to to gauge um how a new program in the senior center is running um without having some kind of data collection in place. And that's hard to do when you're dealing with actual people. Um and lastly, political will is necessary to shift resources based on results. Um so again I won't go into all the details but it starts with community priorities um priorities from our elected officials. It then evaluates our programs against our priorities um allocates resources based on those outcomes and then we work on our transparency and engagement. Um so what we're looking to do is make our budget, this is the underlying tenant here, is make our budget more strategic and less incremental. So municipal governments um in general have a tendency to uh we can go up by two and a half% so we go up by two and a half%. um well, we've always done it this way and that way it went up $1,500. We increase that line by $1,500. Instead of saying, why are we even doing it this way each and every time, right? asking those questions, the why are we doing uh things this way? Um it encourages our

staff to look at their programs um in an innovative way and try to come up with different ways to provide the same services or or a different variation of the service based on what we think the the public is is looking for. Um so all of that is to say that the most direct way you're going to see that and this is an example when you are looking at the line item budget um most of the extent expense lines now have subgroups in each one of them that shows all of the annual um outlays of of funding um all the way down to you know a $500 $100 recurring item. So, it breaks down what we're doing uh in a more coherent, transparent way, but it also shows you and the public that we have vetted each and every one of these line items and these these smaller purchases are important to keeping the organization running. And you'll see that, like I said, in every single um department. And just just quick question, when you say down to $500, is that an arbitrary statement or is that where you're cut off for the line items?

It's a little bit of an arbitrary statement because what we found is we had originally tried to say we're not going to go below um $1,000, but then there was a lot of stuff that we looked at that we said, well, that's kind of important to make sure people understand where that money's going. So, even in this case, it's important to show that, you know, in the my professional and technical line for my office, $500 of that is already earmarked for the trails committee to do all of their uh activities for the year. We have a lot of those little little pockets of money. So, uh $500 is probably an about number. I think you'll see some in in some departments that are probably $60, $50. Um and then we also wanted to increase our transparency with you know the way that we budget. Uh we have to have some amount of buffer in some of these lines because we have a lot of expenses that pop up throughout the year that we couldn't have anticipated. Um and we need to be able to pivot and and do things fairly quickly. Um and so all of these lines now have an other category. And what other is is basically unanticipated um costs or things that are so minuscule that like we're not putting our Adobe PDF subscription here that's going to get lumped into a different category. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So, um, but it it's a more transparent way of us doing that. And it was a great exercise because every department did this exact exercise, looked at all of their um outlays from fiscal 25 and what they've done for fiscal 26, found everything that's recurring, and then had those conversations about whether or not that needs to stay here. Um, are we doing this correctly? Should this be in a different pot of money? Should this be in a different department? We had a lot of those conversations. Um, and we did find some savings. It's not a ton of savings, but we probably found about $20,000 worth of savings in which we were able to either um stop funding something altogether because we're underutilizing it um or um find a different way to to do the same thing. Um it was it was I think very enlightening for the department heads um to really look introspectively about why they're doing things a certain way and whether or not that's the best way to to do it. And they were very forthcoming about saying let's get rid of this alto together. We used it twice last year and it's $1,000. We can just do it a different way and save that money. Um so good process in my opinion. All right. Right now on to the regular budget conversation. Um so for fiscal year 27 we we face kind of similar process um uh concerns that we've had you know since the beginning of time. Uh health insurance cost increases uh continue to plague us. We're going to go a little bit farther down that rabbit hole in a minute. Um state aid in chapter 70 trying to figure out where the state is going to land. um our flexible state aid, which is our uh we call it UGGA, unrestricted government aid. Um we won't have that

number until well into the spring. Um and then these are two quotes that I took from uh there's an MMA report that I believe I sent around to the finance committee um that stated and I thought this was interesting. While rising education aid has enabled substantial new investments across urban Massachusetts, it hasn't provided the same level of benefits to rural and suburban towns. And so that's a I I know that's uh very obvious to us because we've been having this conversation, but um it, you know, speaks to the fact that we're not on an island. This is not a grafting specific problem. This is what we're seeing throughout the state. Um and and similarly, given the two and a half percent cap on local tax increases, the best tool for suburban towns is often an expensive and temporary override. And that's why so many communities have turned to that funding mechanism to try to keep services at the levels that they desire. Um so moving into this budget cycle, our official statement, which is our bond rating, um remains at doublea stable. Um, we do have some light uh in the end of the the uh bond rating tunnel that we may be able to move up to AAA um based upon changes that we made in our oped funding uh liability. It has really changed our our favorability with Moody's and S&P and we'll find that out later on uh next fiscal year when we actually go out to bond and have to do a bond rating skull. Um our current liability is now 46 million. That's a 30% decrease since 20 uh 2023. Um and that is due to changes in our policy approach and uh funding structure. So, uh when we that it's a it's about a $20 million savings just by

going through that exercise and doing all of that work. Um which is a crazy good outcome, right? That's $20 million that the Grafton taxpayers will never have to spend. What kind of changes are those? So broad over

the broad strokes are we have to write and adhere to a policy that says we are going to fund x amount of dollars from our free cash each year. Um we are going to continue to invest in an aggressive strategy because we've got so far to go that we want to be as aggressive as possible. We can we can ride out the highs and lows because we're not at a point where we need that stable um withdrawal ability. Um, and then lastly, what we have have done is that we will earmark the money that we're currently paying into Worcester County retirement. Once retirement is fully funded, we will shift those funds to OPED to get OPED caught up. Um, and then once you've fully funded OPED, then that chunk of money can go back into the into the coffers um as as capacity essentially. Um, now before we get excited about that, that's 2050. So, but, uh, we're we're we're making great strides. Um, it doesn't feel like it. Um, but since 2023, uh, so we're we're funded just over a million dollars right now. Since 2023, that's 132% increase. Um, and then, uh, we are 2.36% funded in the entire fund. um which is a 230% increase since uh 2023. So um making just tremendous strides there. A lot of hard work went into developing this OPED model.

So the 230 is a combination of the decrease in the liability and the increase. Correct.

Yep. Correct. Um stabilization uh we have 5 uh or $5,191,000 in our stabilization account. Um, we certified free cash this year at a record of $6.8 million. Um, we've already used $600,000 of that for um budget. That was that gap for the um uh municipal solid waste program and then $420,000 $5,000 for the middle school roof uh design project. So that leaves us with 5.66 million available for May. Um, which again is pretty darn good. Um, some of that is onetime revenue. Some of that is like there's a million dollars in there that's UPS's building permit. Um, but there is a lot of just policy driven changes that help us build this um, free cash account so that we can then do projects like the middle school roof and buy a fire truck and all of those things. Um you can see here our levy limit um has increased from 53,147 to 55,679. Um that gives us a prop 2 and a half increase of 1 million 391,000. We are currently pegging new growth at a million dollars um which we think is a reasonable place to be. So the FY27 levy limit is the 26 levy limit plus Prop 2 and a half Prop plus new growth. Correct from 27.

Correct. Okay.

So we'll talk about health insurance because this is kind of a a big one for us right now. So last fiscal year, if you recall, we had an 18% increase. Um that was roughly an $800,000 uh nut to crack. Um we did that through uh changing our trash program and a couple of other um improvements or changes. Um we are currently in deficit. Um when I originally gave this presentation, we were in deficit by about 950,000. Um that has since decreased. Um and we're currently at about 300,000. Um and we are making uh as many changes as we can to get us across the line with as small of a deficit as possible um as we move into um fiscal 27. So the current budget is carrying a 15% increase um which is roughly a million dollars. The I foresee that number coming down and the reason is that we are moving into the GIC or group insurance commission. Um, we feel that that is going to bring us more favorable rates, but we also think that because of the plan designs, we will be able to uh steer staff in a way that helps them save money on health insurance um while simultaneously saving the town on health insurance. So, the um current projection of what we are going to save is $750,000. That is not a savings over last year. that is a savings for what we think we are going to have to outlay. So, there's still going to be an increase and I am leerary about pinning us to that $750,000 savings amount. Um, and that is because our retirees are still um in a group arrangement with Etna. Etna has increased their rates for retirees by

60%. But we are currently in negotiations with Etna as a group um or trying to regroup I guess is a better way to put that. So because of that uncertainty we're we're riding that 15% wave right now and we're going to obviously adjust this as we get better data coming forward. Um there's also inherent uncertainty in the choices that the the public employees make about the plans that they utilize as well. Right.

We what we will do is we will take the um group insurance commission numbers that show the breakdown of the plan designs that the average municipality sees. Right? This is the average throughout the state. And then we will use that to make an educated um I don't want to say guess but I guess educated uh an informed decision uh to give our best prediction of what we would see here in Grafton. And you can do that because we have um you know a certain geography and a certain makeup of staff that live in certain areas. So you can kind of predict what plans uh may be best for them. Um, so like if you're in the western part of the state, it's almost predom it's almost wholly uh health New England. Uh, this area is a lot of Harvard Pilgrim. You go east and you're into different plans. There's explorer plans. There's a lot of different options. Um, but we are going to spend a lot more time in this enrollment period onboarding people and showing them that they can probably get better coverage for less money um if they if they, you know, make choices. is based upon their utilization instead of, you know, it's it's always been a little bit of a hands-off approach so that people can select what they want without feeling any pressure. But when that happens, a lot of times people wind up overinsured.

Sure. Because that's not the goal of most insurance companies is to get you to spend as little money as possible.

I know that's shocking information. Um, but so that's that's where we're we're headed. Um we have our kickoff meeting with GIC on the 18th um of this month. So we are in good shape to to start you know um building out that that program. Um and I'll talk more about the forecast um when we when we get there. Other environmental changes we are carrying uh around 10% for pension liability changes. Um we're hopeful that we are on the the short side of that, but um given our past trend uh analysis, we've been around 10%. Pretty consistently. Um that said, we haven't really had any major staff changes and we haven't really gotten uh any word that we are um looking at any major hikes, but we're going to leave it there for now because worst case that's where we're going to end up. Um Blackstone Valley, we obviously don't have that. We won't have that until the spring. um staff salaries. We've got our cont contractual increases, our steps and cola, and just to put on everybody's radar, the town is negotiating two union contracts coming into this fiscal year. So, those will both kick off uh hopefully in January.

Which ones? It is GMEA and the library union. So for BVT, can they give us the I know they can't give us the per student to the but can they give us the enrollment numbers that it's going to be based on so we have some idea? Yes. Uh yes, probably. Um I have always had good luck with um Dr. Fitzpatrick and reaching out to him early and saying where you think we're going to be and he would give me a back of the envelope. This is this is I think where you'll you'll end up. Um with the understanding that I won't make that a thing if he if he was off by a little bit of money. Yeah.

Um I don't have a relationship with the new uh superintendent, but that is on our radar of someone to connect with, sit down and try to get those numbers. I would assume they'd at least have their enrollment numbers by now. So um even if they we we can make our own estimates based on that, but just have some idea. Yeah, it is it is tricky because you need to know the enrollment of all the other communities as well because all of that plays in it is a uh a daunting formula.

Um so but we yes the short answer is yes we plan on reaching out and trying to get those that data uh earlier rather than later. Um, we obviously have a lot of federal and state government uncertainty. Um, inflation cost rise rates that outpace what we can raise on local taxes. Um, we've got tariff and manufacturing costs that are are starting to show themselves, but will likely show themselves um more in our I'm going to assume we're going to see that a lot more in our capital plan. Um, because those big ticket items that you know they they take a hit. Um, and then we we've witnessed some loss of grant opportunities with federal grant scalebacks. Um, and even grant opportunities that are available, there's less people working in those departments and they're harder to actually get and and move along. Um, all right. So, next steps, we are um we've finalized all our budget requests. Um we are presenting the full forecast to the select board on the 16th and our full budget uh at least first pass to the select board on the 16th. Um I will show you our working forecast as long as everybody understands that by next week it will look very different because um we're going to continue to work on it. It already looks drastically different than it did three weeks ago. Um, so what can you expect out of this budget season? Um, my plan is in conjunction with the school department to give you two budget options. Last year we had a lot of budget options and it got really muddy really fast and there was a lot of work that went on for

plans that never came even close to fruition. Um and so what we plan to do is give you a full budget that addresses the service delivery needs of the community. Um it will include revenue supplements which may include an override. Right? This is our this is what the baseline budget is. this is what you would need to raise somehow to get us across that line. Um, and it'll be bifurcated into a fully funded budget with a contingent portion. Right? So, this is the things we'd have to reduce. Um, and it'll be very preliminary on the 16th. We haven't drilled down all the way. Um, a quick question. So your your full budget is the this sounds like three options to me. What do you what do you mean the full budget will be bifurcated?

So the full budget shows you the the entire P picture but our revenue would have to be bifurcated because we have our regular revenue stream and then whatever the deficit is is what would have to be raised either by an override or um whatever other means we do. However, it needs to be contingent because if you go to town meeting and they vote no, you've got your your budget that keeps us all here with with reductions. And if they vote yes, then you can start to move to the contingent process. I see. Okay. So, you will have your recommendations for what is in the sorry bucket, right?

Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Did you say the sorry bucket? That's what it Yes. I'm gonna put that in the next PowerPoint. Sorry. No, I like I like that one. I like that one. Um um and then a reduced budget which balances if no actions taken at town meeting and we have to take the short calls. It it's really not much different than the bifurcated budget. Right. That was But um it just it's just in one place. Yeah. Fair. Okay. Um and so that would that's mostly a procedural thing for town meeting.

Yeah. We need to be able to show uh we we can't guarantee that that that an override or whatever future holds passes and if it doesn't pass, this is what you have. If you look back at the last override, uh that warrant had a contingent budget in it. Um so that's what we're that's what we're working on. Um and those would result in staff reductions and service delivery changes. That's naturally how that goes. The current budget deficit, if we were to do nothing and just take the the the forecast as we have it, is uh roughly a $2.3 million deficit. Um again, that number will change by next week. Um hopefully to the negative side as we continue to to tweak things. Um but that's where it sits if we do absolutely nothing. Um, some other data points to keep in mind. Remember that we pulled the municipal solid waste program out of the tax base and created an enterprise fund. Um, I'm working with the municipal solid waste committee to give a recommendation to the select board. Um, they're doing a fantastic job. It is a ton of data and a very confusing process because every town's got some little nuance that you have to factor in. Um, but I think we're making tremendous progress there. Um, I should put this as fire department staffing so that my staff don't see fire staffing.

That's a fair self. Yeah, that's a that was a good As I read it, I'm like um so the fire chief is going to request two full-time positions. Um, we have a strong chief here in Grafton. So that process looks like um what that process will look like is he will have to go before the select board and um see if the select board wants to vote to include that increase in the budget. I don't know if they will or not. Um but it is in our clear gov system. So I want to be transparent that that exists. I don't want anybody to be surprised if that's part of the conversation while we're also having this other conversation. Right. Um

question on the municipal solid waste. Are those have those been public meetings or is that all Okay. Yep, they're all recorded. Actually, one was playing in the hallway when I was on my way down here. Thank you.

Um I was up there yammering on about trash bags. Um but yeah, it is I find municipal solid waste tremendously uh interesting. So I've enjoyed that process quite a bit. Um so we're going to continue our discussion about health insurance. We have to kind of pinpoint that, whittle that down. um that was the switch to GIC was literally four years of of work to get the unions all in alignment to agree to it. So I I think that it is a great option for Grafton. Um but there's some uncertainty there that hopefully we we glean some more information on the 18th. If I may interrupt you, Dan does have his hand raised.

Okay. Uh yeah, I just had a question with the uh fire department staffing. Um the uh why does that need a select board vote? Is that just because you want to get their explicit buyin or is there an actual necessity for that?

No. Like like years past, I don't want to get the select board's buy in on anything. No, I'm kidding. Matt's Matt's sitting in the room. Uh that was just for Matt's uh edification. No, the back in I think it was 21, the town of Grafton voted to make the fire chief a strong chief. Um and so the strong chief provision makes it so that the fire chief doesn't report to the town administrator, he reports or they report to um the select board directly. And so uh anytime that the fire department is looking to make uh large changes to the way that they're operating, they need to go in front of the select board to get um their buy in and their vote in order to move that. So, we we haven't done that a ton because the fire department's pretty much been status quo uh since the strong chief provision. Um, but you know, in a time where we're talking about uh cuts and not being able to get across the line, I think it is important for the select board to voice their opinion on whether or not this is the time to do that. And if they voice their opinion that yes, this is the time to do that or something um with increased staffing, um I need that direction to include that in the budget because I'm not looking to grow any of our departments uh in any way in this particular budget process.

Got it. Thanks. Okay. Um I as a digression I would also think that that's a conversation that's going to come up during the upcoming charter review because while the strong chief provision was adopted the charter was never amended uh to reflect the strong chief

provision. Um and I mean that in the way that um there's nothing that calls out the fire chief's um budget process being any different. there's nothing that allocates or or denotes um how that management structure looks. So, usually there's a a writer in there that tells you how to do that. Um lastly, the town is planning to uh we've looking at our our expense lines, most of them are level funded from what they were last year. Um there will be a few that have some increases and we'll obviously go into great detail on what those increases are. Um but they're they're generally ex uh needed expense uh increases to keep us at level services. They're not service increases. They're just the price of whatever software we have went up by 10% and we have to do it because that's what we use every day. Those type of things. Um and that's it for the basic presentation. Um I am happy to show the working document version of our forecast. Um it is fairly catastrophic but there are a few things in there that I think we need to note are going to change and I'll talk through them uh briefly.

Yes, please. Um bear with me and and can I can I index on um the the beginning of your your presentation um where you sort of went through uh the new philosophical approach to budgeting this year being priority and not priority based being per performance-based. Um, I think that that is an excellent way to go through line by line and to sort of change change folks mindsets. Mhm.

And and can I also say that the number that you pulled out, tell me if this is the right number to index on, a savings of about $20,000 from that exercise, um, you know, as a as a percentage of the entire budget is essentially negligible. Um, and to me that speaks to how careful all of your you and all of your department heads have been over at least the last three years that that I've had the opportunity to be a part of this process um while while creating their budgets and and how thoughtful everyone has has always been and how careful everyone has always been. Um, just figured that was worth highlighting. Thank you. That that you folks do an incredible job running this town on what's been a shoestring budget for the entire time I've been here.

Yes. Thank you. Uh, you have great great department heads here. Um, great partners in the school. Um, and we're always looking at ways to be more efficient and effective and save money where we can. Um, yeah. Thank you. Um, all right. So, without further ado, I'm going to put this up on the screen and then I'm gonna figure it out. When I uh walked into this room and opened my computer earlier, it decided it was a good time to update all of my office suite. So, it closed out every box I had. Cool. Lovely.

Yeah, it was great. I was having a great time while you were opening the meeting frantically. Um, all right. So, again, a lot of these numbers are going to get tweaked and they're especially going to get tweaked between now and the 16th. Um, as it sits without any other correction, um, we are, as I said, about $2.3 million, uh, in the red. We need to make some changes and some philosophical adjustments to how we are budgeting or how we are forecasting health insurance moving forward. Um because this projection as it sits right now or this forecast as it sits right now most certainly is health insurance heavy uh and that can be that can be trimmed back. Um we're also working on updating uh some of our revenue. We've we've added about half a million dollars in revenue into the program um that we were a little probably too cautious on in the last budget cycle. um not because we were aware we were going to be too cautious, but because it turned out we were too cautious. That was the best we had at the time. Um and so we've we've done some of those changes. Um so now you can see, as I said, as you move out to 2031, it gets worse and worse. Um I don't think that this number at 11.2 is accurate. I think that um that is going to trend downwards again between now and and next week as we refine some of this. Um but this is what we're working with currently.

Mark, you have your hand raised. Yeah. Evan, when you did the projection last year and you called out what would happen in fiscal 27, is this 2.3 million in line with that? Um it's it's currently a little bit higher than it was. Um, that's health insurance driven. It's health insurance driven. And again, I think I think we're going to I think we're going to see that number decrease um as as Mary and I work on it. Um, so yeah, I I think we're going to be I think we're going to be better. What was it last year? Uh, I I'd have to pull it up. It was not 2.3 million. It was was less than that.

Um, and I don't I don't have that. that that'll be part of our conversation on the 16th. Sure. So, the current general funds uh shortfall for 26th, that's reflecting that 300,000 that the health insurance is short. Uh yes, that that is that is us projecting what we believe the worst case scenario would be with that. Um Oh, no, sorry. You're talking about the deficit. Yeah, my plan for the deficit is free cash. So, we would do that in the Maytown meeting. Okay. So where is the general the shortfall coming from the what this shortfall here? Yes.

Um so this shortfall is if you if you look um most of that most of that money is tied up in either uh sorry schools and um and yeah I know I don't have I was trying to think of a better way to talk about it but you killed it. Um, yeah, I just put it out there. And and and our unclassifides, which are our pension liabilities and our health insurance. That those are the those are the large drivers of any municipal budget right now. Um, but and that remains true for us. That's that's where you're going to see the biggest um increases.

So, I'm I what I'm wondering is what changed since town meeting that we now have a shortfall where we did not have a shortfall at town meeting. I I don't Are you talking about fiscal Are you in fiscal 26? Yes. That number's not right. Don't even look at that number. Okay. We are to the good by a couple hundred,000. Okay. Um that's one of the reasons why I was reluctant to even show this is because I know there's an error here. Okay. We are not we're not properly capturing what we did on our our recap and on our um LA4 and everything else. It it needs to be tweaked and that is going to tweak some of those other numbers which is again okay

I'm trying to be as transparent as possible but I need u and I know you know this I'm not picking on you Greg but I need some faith that these numbers are are are in the ballpark but they've got to be refined. Okay. I I was expecting that for the future. I didn't I wasn't realized that you also had issues with the current one. Yeah, the we're h we're we're having a this particular document, our working document is currently broken. Um and we are sorting that currently. Um I should have just hid that call in. You explained it. Yeah, appreciate the transparency.

Sure. So um again, we continue to refine this um and try to get the best numbers we can for you. Right. It's it's directionally accurate even if it's not. Yeah, we we you that's a great point. We know uh when you look at what we're projecting in unclassified and in school and in general government um you know public safety that that that gap widens. Um so is there a similar issue with the the decrease in the general fund revenue between 26 and 27? about a half million dollars there. Um,

looks like mostly in available funds slash other is that some of our onetime money and stuff? Uh, some of it's our onetime money and some of it is that we've been making tweaks to the formulas for our revenue projection. So, it's going to show up in 27 and not in 26. Okay.

Okay. I mean I can ask the the impossible question which is I mean when we we do tweak it in six days I I I mean 2.32 it goes down 300,000 whatever 2 million I mean that's still not that's not in the couch cushions. Uh no I mean we're not going to close that to zero. I I think we did all of that work last year. Last year, we really we really the school department and the town, we really pulled every rabbit that we had. Yeah. Um out of the hat. I probably should say that otherwise. That's just an odd statement. Um but

there's not there's there's not a lot of buckets left to to find savings in. Right. But and and and I think it's worth stating that very plainly is that we we were having conversations last year about an override and it kind of vasillated between you know are we going to look at threeear fiveyear are we going to do a one-year mini override um and and you two were able to play very clever games move move funds around um but that but we played them right I I think it's just it's worth very plainly ly stating that we sort of move things around as much as we can.

Yes. And I also think and I don't want to I'm going to speak about the school budget for just a second is that some of the things that that um Dr. Cummings had made changes last year were very plainly stated as short-term changes that are going to have to be fixed at a certain point, right? Um and and we need to be aware of that that that was a kind of a we're gonna we're going to make some sacrifices to punt to fiscal 27, but we're going to have to make some tough choices when fiscal 27 gets here or tougher choices. Right. The HR headcount immediately comes to mind, right?

Yep. Yeah. Uh, one of the things uh that we did last year was the addition of the new medically fragile program. Is that how is that going? Uh, it's great. Uh, we've Do you want me to give an overview? I would love that.

I didn't I prepared just a simple one-page handout. I greatly underestimated the online piece. U, but I can speak to all the pieces and I think I can make it very clear. So, here we go. I'll be quick when I do it. I have all the faith. Thank you. All right, I will try to keep it uh simple and to the point. We're a little bit ahead on uh in terms of timing. Last night, we presented the preliminary FY27 budget to the school committee. Uh the full preliminary book is available on our website right now. um what we presented and I can go through it but truly a bare bones level service um budget it's preliminary uh there needs to be time for the school committee what we talked about is they could decide to add positions back which I'll talk to in a second um to give you a little history that I know everybody here is well aware of uh when we basically reached that override capacity off of the over last override that was the end of FY24. In FY25, obviously without another override, we were faced with on the school side, a gap of about $1.2 million. Um, we knew that possibility was coming. Of course, an override is never guaranteed. So, for years, we had tried to build up our revolver accounts, primarily school choice, kind of for that rainy day, and that was FY25 for us. Um, so that got us through FY25 with the hope maybe in FY26

an override or every year we talk about will the state magically fix their funding and great sure enough FY26 comes. Um, we were out of revolver funds. So, I'm sure you recall it seems like years ago that we met right here, but we had a four-prong approach. Um, we didn't definitely did not want to do it. It was the last rabbit in the hat that Evan talked about is best practice is to have for us it would be over a million but at least a million dollars in excess circuit breaker funds um that can be used for special education tuitions. Um you have those in reserve. Kids move in all the time. That's uh that's big. But we spent it out. So we spent out about a million. We made staff reductions 6.5 FTE that totaled 447,000 non-personnel reductions stuff so equipment supplies etc of about 162,000 and then what Greg talked to is we invested in maintaining a specialized program at the high school and we've brought in students from out of district tuitionbased students that have covered our costs and over 200,000 in revenue. venue and that's great. We're maxed out. We can bring in more students, but right now I don't we can't do that again. We've already expanded our programming. Um so that that's worked out beautifully. Um but I wish we could do it, you know, double it every year. We just can't. Uh so that brings us to FY27. We have will literally go into next year with zero dollars in terms of circuit breaker carryover. Um, which we've never even come within a million dollars of doing before. Uh, we've got limited school choice reserves. We have a very

super healthy school choice program with a long wait list. That's wonderful. Um, but we're using most of the money that comes in for salaries. They're just offsetting costs. Uh, so we don't have anything saved up in reserve. Uh, and as I just mentioned, we've maximized that revenue generation. Um, when I talk about bare bones, if you look on the flip side, I simply lay out those 6.5 positions that were reduced last year. with what I presented to school committee last night at this point knowing that it's going to be so tight. I've we've only brought one position potentially back and we set that aside at $123,000. We've labeled it under HR director, but being that it's December 10th, um you'll see I the caveat is it's going to be dependent on needs. That might be two and a half paras, it might be a teacher and a parah. Um if we have anything that comes up that's going to trump that uh we may have to pivot, but that's the only new position in this FY27 budget. We had probably eight positions requested by principles for various reasons um where of course their job is to advocate for trying to get better and better. Um but as it stands now the FY27 preliminary school budget only has this one position in in it. So going back to the other side in summary we have three central cost drivers. Um those are uh personnel costs. We're 85% people of about $2 million out of district tuitions. Uh we do a fantastic job with our programming from prek all the way through 12. I don't know of a district

that I don't know of one that does a better job with that. We retain n over 99% of our students in Grafton, but there are nobody's fault. There are always students who have medical needs, a whole array of needs that cannot be met in a public school setting and they um attend school outside of of Grafton. Over the last five months, we've had six students move into the district who are they moved in to Grafton, wonderful, but they were already placed in out of district placements. um if it happens mid year, unless it's a collaborative, you don't own that tuition. So, at the end of last year, we didn't have to scramble and find 700,000. Um but we own that this year. Um so, that's almost entirely the student the movein students and the transportation is almost entirely special education and that's corresponding with these out of district placements. So those three things are those actually total more than our our increase of about $3 million um 6.32%. Uh through reductions of the same approach that Evan spoke to that we've been using for for years. Uh we've cut where we anywhere we can uh to still again keep the level of service that we have been providing. But it's definitely tighter than ever. Um, and this is the first year, and I've been here a long time, that, as Evan said, I look into that hat and there are no rabbits. Um, and I can take any questions you have, but that's the the quick thumbnail overview.

So, you said you you might be able to grow a few more people into the Yeah, we'll we'll definitely bring some students in. Um, but it'll be incremental increases.

Correct. And it's most likely going to be offset by kids moving into the district. Just last week, we had two students move in. Um, both collaborative students and those you own. Like we have to find 200,000 and make it work. Um, so there's a a give and take with the program that's attracting kids because just things happen. But um it's been fantastic and there's room for growth. So I expect that we will continue to bring in outside students. Angelina,

um so for the six and a half positions that you got rid of last year, can you just remind me again they were existing positions or they Sorry, I'm acting like you could see the slide. We had a halftime preschool teacher that 1.0 I know HR director, uh, a full-time technology position, a math intervention teacher, one maintenance position, and two of our four curriculum coordinator positions. Okay. And those were all positions that were previously included in the budget, not things that you were requesting that Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, those were actual cuts to the Yeah,

that's correct. Um, and then, uh, Evan, how much did you say our certified free cash was? Uh, well, it was 6.8 million for for this year, correct? I don't I feel like we've talked about this before, but I can't remember. Um, can it the free cash be used to bring back the revolver funds like to put into the school or uh I don't believe so? I don't think so. Um, you know, it's it's really one-time revenue, right? It's oret one time use funds, right? Um,

but isn't that what revolver funds are? Sort of like a savings account. No, the revolver accounts I don't think are considered one-time revenue. Um, okay. I can I can I'm sure I'm oversimplifying it, but but so you're saying what we would do is take some free cash and put it into the revolving accounts to replenish those uh school district, right? I I don't think that's an allowable use. Yeah. Um it's not. But I think that division of municipal and schools, everybody would do it if you could, right? And we have so much more flexibility with the school revolvers. I think that always on the municipal side, you're jealous of that. And rightfully so. Yeah.

Um, but isn't free cash for anything? No.

Well, you so let's put it this way. In theory, yes, but not without consequence. So, you can you can do a lot of things with free cash, but you have to suffer whatever is on the other side of that, whether that's a bond rating hit um or uh you know, a slap on the wrist from do or a much bigger problem with with um but I have no problem asking that question. Um but I also don't know that I would advocate for that even if we could. Um, I think that again is is throwing is just kicking that we're not fixing our our problem for the whole

Yeah. No, no, no. I wasn't suggesting that it was a solution to that. It's just a solution to the schools not having any savings. Yeah, that was what that's all I was thinking. I know that that's not going to solve the the operating budget funding. Yeah, understood. Thank you. Mhm. So Jay, above the six and a half that we cut last year, were there other unfilled positions that um I don't believe we added any new positions? I say, are there things that you've not filled in the past in order to Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, we've definitely um I mean, it's unfortunate, but this is what happens. It wasn't that long ago we were talking about good to great and we don't talk about that too much. I think we're doing a very good job, but we're trying to hang on. Um, and we of course with what the staff we do have and

we have a lot of great things going on. Uh, just like what Evan talked about, we're obviously every day trying to get better, improve. We've got our benchmarking. We've got lots of good things in place. But I said to the school committee, it almost didn't feel even though it's a an increase, I I I get it. Um, but as superintendent, it's this budget with almost such a big district to look to add back one position. Yeah. And not the others that we cut and not improving. That's that's just not great. But

so it might be too lean to be quite frank. But Dan,

uh yeah, I that really concerns me. I if we go in with uh this proposal of too lean, uh it's only going to go down from there. Um, I a lot of people in Grafton want to do good to great and it seems like that's never on like something that the select board is ever interested in hearing, but it's there. And I think if we if the budget begins with uh a twolean position then there are voices involved in this process who are going to want to compromise down from there. And I that's something that I'm really worried about is that we end up we end up finding a a so-called middle ground where there are further cuts to services and an override and nobody's happy about it and then it doesn't even get passed. Like that's that's what I feel like is the the direction that this might head in and I'm concerned.

Yep. And just on on my Thank you, Dan. Just on on my end, the school committee has talked about that. I want to be crystal clear that it's obviously super early in the process. I simply provided just a the preliminary and ask them they're going to give consideration at our next meeting. Um, give me direction in terms of adding more back, adding requested positions, whatever that might be. So, at their next meeting, I I should have a lot more direction as to uh where they want to go and that may very well be in line with what you just talked about. It's it's a fair point and and Dan I recall you saying this um a similar thing last year and um it it does it does feel a little bit that it it has it has come to pass right that we did sacrifice as as much as we did particularly on on the school side of of the budget um that the numbers do feel do feel stark right not a question, but I hope a fair statement.

So, you will be presenting a slightly more refined version of the budget forecast out through 31 FY31 to the select board and the school committee in six days. Is that the plan? Uh oh. 26 days away. Yep, that's it. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to put it in such Well, that's a bummer. Sorry. Yeah, exactly. Um, no, that's the plan and that's kind of what we've been aiming for. So, you know, I think that's that that is directly why our numbers are a little unrefined tonight because that's that's what we're shooting for is the 16th.

Yeah, I'll have to watch that one later. It's the high school concert. Oh, I'll watch it later. Okay.

I'll have to watch the concert. I mean ultimately um given all that we've discussed this evening that there um over the last two years post override um we were in a position where we were um wise enough to make that override last two years more than we thought it would. Um however, we are now simply uh out of wiggle room given sort of all of the factors that are in play here from um dwindling state aid, dwindling opportunities for federal grants or state grants that obviously trickle down, increased inflation, um cola understandably increasing under all of these circumstances. Um, I I think we we do have to start a very serious conversation about putting an override forward to to the town in in the spring meeting. Mhm.

Um, so the the question then becomes I mean how how many years out do we do we look at how many years would be like this override to um hopefully pad us for um what is that number? Um hopefully that 2031 number does drop significantly, right? Um and and then packaged on on top of that um you know how do we ensure that everything that you've just told us and and our historical knowledge as the fincom is something that we we can share with the town of Grafton so that they understand that we are good stewards of their hard-earned tax dollars. Uh and and yet we want to continue making this town the best the best possible place place to live. Um, Angelina,

well, um, I also think I I don't I don't disagree, but I think that we need to start looking at, um, the ways that we're spending money and what things. Um, I think as a town we need to make decisions about where we're spending our money and what services we want to continue at what level um, in order to like give people more options than just an override. And and I'm not I'm not saying that I'm advocating for cutting services, but I think it's a conversation like looking at that forecast and I know that that forecast is not where we're going to end up. I've been through this enough times to know that, you know, it's definitely going to change. Um, but kind of philosophically, we are in a position of our costs are constantly going up more than our revenue is going up. And while we're in the same position as every other suburban town in Massachusetts, um, that's not going to change anytime soon. and you know the the tax burden that it's putting on people um has to be balanced against the services that people are getting out of it. And I just think it's a like a bigger conversation than just putting an override forward. And I'm not saying that you're oversimplifying it at all, but I just want to put out there that I think um that you know where we're spending our money uh needs to also be discussed as part of this. And I'm sure the select board will get into it too, but It's it's a it's a very fair point and I was sort of thinking about um Evan going back to you the part of your presentation where you will also be presenting the contingency budget. You

know the pieces that are in the SAR bucket uh if we want to trademark that. um h who are all of the voices at the table that help make that decision about what line items go into that contingency bucket to to Angelina's to Angelina's point. Um Mark,

sorry I couldn't find the unmute button. I'm I'm extremely disappointed and I'm going to lay blame on the finance committee as well as the select board and the school committee. We we we dropped the ball last year. I remember conversations saying, "Well, we're going to start right away and we're going to be talking about the budget every week and we're going to be getting ready for a fiscal year 27 because we know what's going to happen." And I feel like it's deja vu. This is the same conversation we had last last spring and nothing has changed. I see no planning. I see nothing. And I and I, you know, I blame the finance committee. We should have been meeting all summer talking about this and forcing decisions earlier in the process so that we're not sitting here on December 10th where next week, December 16th, the budget's going to be presented to the uh to the to the select board and then they'll hem and har about it over the then the holidays are coming. Nothing's going to happen over the Christmas holidays and the new year. Then we're going to get into the new into the new year. Next thing you know, it's May. It's town meeting and we have no no plan, no anything. I am extremely frustrated. I'm extremely disappointed as a member of the finance committee and a and a person in this town right now. Nothing has changed in a year. This is the exact same conversation we had last year. There's been no change. I'm not It's not Evan's fault. It's not Jay's fault. It's our fault. We should have forced the issue. Nothing has changed. I am extremely frustrated. It's It's very very disappointing.

Thanks, Mark. Dan, uh, I'm I'm pretty sure this is much earlier than it was last year. Um, but I I agree. It would have been nice to to get here a bit earlier. I also understand that like it's uh it takes a lot of work to put this stuff together and the numbers, you know, the we're only just figuring out the health insurance stuff. Um but but this is definitely earlier than we started last year. Um and uh yeah, I think it's

we said we were going to start in the summer, Dan, and we didn't start in the summer. December. I don't care how early it is. We didn't follow through with what was said to us last May or April before the town meeting. We said we're going to start in the summer. We're going to go go. We've done nothing. It's December 10th. This is the first time the finance committee is talking about the FY27 budget. Yeah, Skip.

Well, I got a little bit different opinion on this. Yeah, we should have been pushing this. This isn't our job to push. It's from Evans five bosses that should be out in the front making these decisions about these buckets and everything. We are a warrant advisory committee and we advise the town meeting on the items in the warrant. We're not responsible for putting stuff on the warrant or anything. We support or don't support warrant items. And us having to take a lead on this really isn't the right thing for us to be doing. if the folks that are supposed to be leading us are actually doing it. And I think we've had this discussion in the past.

I'm not totally sure that a blame game and fingerpointing is the way out of the situation that that we find ourselves in. I don't think any of you are wrong and I don't disagree with any of you completely. Right. Um,

I'm not trying to make it a blame game. What what I'm saying is we're working with what we have for a charge under the charter, which is again to review the warrant items and make suggestions to the town meeting and and that's really it. Doesn't mean we can't help the

Exactly, Mark. And we we yeah we've had that discussion the last several years or this very discussion and yeah Dan this is the same time it comes up every year after the preliminary stuff is s here and we all know that the town simply does not raise enough money to take care of its expenses the way people would like to take care of their expenses. um to try and and knock off services. What are you gonna You'd have to go to a town meeting and vote up or down everything and that would be chaos. Fair point. So for us this evening um next steps I I think are uh certainly hearing what the elected boards and officials do recommend and um the feedback that they do have on the 16th and then to Mark's point continuing as a finance committee to continue to push from our side as best we can to continue that conversation to ensure that whatever the contingency budget might look like is something that as many voices as possible have some stake at that table. Um and uh again to ensure that sort of the the messaging makes sense and that we agree from a finance committee perspective with what the other committees are saying. Um Heather

Hold on. Sorry. Um, it I I I mean I I understand everyone's frustration with what's going on, but it doesn't sound like Evan and his, you know, his department heads haven't been doing everything. Obviously, they have. I mean, they've been trying to look at every line item of the budget and where they can get money. No one wants an override. And I'm pretty sure that everything that Eban has been doing for the past year is so that we don't have to have an override. So it sounds like he's been working towards that. So it's just because we haven't been involved doesn't mean that things haven't been been done. Um, I I I but again I you know two-sided. I do understand the frustration, but I mean correct me if I'm wrong, Evan, I'm pretty sure you guys have been working for for several months trying to find ways to cut costs so that an override doesn't have to happen. And if it does have to happen, I'm assuming you have a plan for that. just we don't know what it is because we haven't you know we we don't sit in your office all day and we can't meet you know all the time because it would it it your plans like you said are going to change within 6 days. So if we do meet every month, it's might possibly not even be worth it because you you you do change so often because things change and you get information from the state and you get information from BBT and it's a constant, you know, struggle to keep things um constant and it's and and to get all information information that's correct. So, you know, I I don't think we all should be beating ourselves down because I don't think that it's necessarily anybody's fault. I think that this is just a a continually fluid budget that it's, you know, it is what it is and we don't know everything right now. We probably know less now than we did 6

months ago because things change. I mean, who knows what the state's going to do? Who knows what the federal government's going to do? So, it's hard to even budget. I mean, I've been budgeting my entire, you know, that's what my job is. I budget. It's hard. It's not and it's frustrating. But I mean, I don't think we should all be beating ourselves down because we haven't been meeting every single month to to talk about this. I mean, I don't I don't know. It's It's That's all I have to say. Thanks, Heather. Well said. Mark, your hand up went up first.

Yeah, you're missing I guess I wasn't clear in my point. My My point was is last year we knew we were coming into a deficit. I'm not saying Jay and Evan aren't doing their job and the department heads aren't doing their job. They are. They're working hard. They're doing a great job. And the point that Victoria made earlier on on the on the the way our department heads have been working is is a great point. They are great department heads. They are doing a great job. The point I'm trying to make is if there was direction given to Evan and Jay, they would be building budgets right now. They would be having public forums and they would be talking about what we need to do. It would either be, listen, we need an override. We're going to ask for $2.3 million on override. Or, by the way, we are going to be cutting services because this is the direction that we've gotten. They have no direction. That's my point. I'm not saying they're not working hard. I'm saying there's no direction. And that's the frustrating part that I see. We talked about this last spring and we said we were going to start working. We're going to start planning over the summer. We were going to start giving direction. We were going to start having policy discussions. We were going to start planning for the fiscal year 27 budget. We are in the same cycle we're in every year. Nothing's changed. That's my frustration, Heather. I'm not saying us meeting every week is going to change things. Certainly, I've been budgeting for 41 years as a town manager. I understand how the process works. I'm saying if there was direction, there would be better planning. And that's that's all I'm saying. Yes, numbers change all the time. You're constantly refining them, but there was no direction to Evan or to Jay on what to do. They're driving the bus and it's not their job to drive the bus. It's our job to drive the bus or the select board's job to drive the bus. That's my point. And sorry if I wasn't clear before. I'll stop talking now. No, I I I understand what you're saying, but I don't think like what Skip said, we we don't drive the bus either.

So, I don't So, I don't And I'm not I'm not offended by what you said at all. I mean, I get it, but I I like Skip said, it's not our job. And even if we do meet and talk about it, you know, my it's I kind of have to laugh. My husband said, "Do you guys even have any power?" Well, not really. I mean, we're we're an advisory board. We help, you know, if people have people look at our recommendations, some people don't even know what we do. So, I I get what you're saying. I'd like to have more, you know, power is not the right word, but I don't think it's the finance committee that can be driving that. Unless you I mean if you disagree, I'd love to know how we could do it cuz I don't know that it's in our power to do that.

Well, Evan said earlier there's going to be a charter review process starting forward. Maybe the charter review committee needs to take a strong look at the charter and look at the way that the budget is formulated. Maybe the finance committee needs to have more authority in the way the budget is put together. maybe that we need to change the process because I don't think the process the way that the process is in the budget right now is working and I think we may we maybe we should go to the charter review committee and advocate for change and change the the the way that the finance committee participates in a lot of towns the finance committee is the one that puts the budget together with the town administrator and brings it to town meeting not the select board the select board is the advisory board when it comes to the budget not the not the driving force and it takes politics out of decisions when you have a finance committee making the decision because we're not running for office, we're appointed and we have a little bit more skin in the game. So maybe the to answer your question, Heather, maybe that's what we need to do. Maybe we need to change the process so that the finance committee is driving the budget and not the select board and take the politics out of it. Select board still has the authority whether or not to call an override. That's their call 100%. And that's that's mass general laws and I understand that. But maybe we need to have the finance committee drive the budget and set the guidance for the town administrator and then work with the select board on whether or not we cut the budget, whether or not we go for an override or or or whatever it is that we do. Maybe that's the answer. I guess I lied. I guess I said I was going to stop talking and I can't help myself. I I apologize.

I like to talk too, but no, I understand what you're that make that Yeah, that's that I like that. I like your idea of changing the policy because maybe that's what maybe that's what needs to be done. I I don't know that's that's the correct answer, but I I I see your direction and I understand it and I agree,

Dan. So if I'm recalling correctly, I think that according to the charter, it's just the town administrator's budget and the select board advises him and then the town administrator presents it to town meeting. So it um but but that aside, I think the uh an important factor here is the select board is elected and by the voters and it seems to me like that causes a lot of fear in some select board members of what the voters will think and there there's a lot of caution and uh it we need some, you know, bold leadership right now and it feels like that's not coming from the select board as much as I would like it to and I think we as the finance committee appointed. uh we're a little bit shielded from that. And I think I think Mark might agree with this that that is part of what gives us some more uh some more wiggle room to suggest things that uh that may or may not be popular and put the ideas out there and get them tested. um you know like the idea that maybe there are people in the community who would like to pay more in taxes to get more and better services. Uh it sounds like that's really not something that the elected officials in town are willing to say out loud. Um but you know we're a little bit insulated from that. So I I think that's it's not an official part of the process, but I think that's an important thing that the finance committee brings uh to this conversation

skip. I I was just going to talk a little bit about the charter did change our charge in pre-charter with a three member board of selectman and the town financial people. We were a lot more involved in the budgeting process. Um that got taken out. I don't know how you would take and roll it back to that time or if we would look to see some other stuff, but it it would still be exceedingly difficult for us to try to put a budget together or try to, you know, act as a an appointed board. putting a budget out there that doesn't answer to the people whose money you're spending. That That's not really right either. Thanks. Okay. Are there any final thoughts or or comments? Okay. Um I'll look to reconvene us um in early January. Um I mean I suppose we could make that commitment now. Um, does anyone have any objections or or thoughts about that?

Makes sense. Okay. Just not a Mondays and Wednesdays, Skip. We're a Wednesday club. Wow. All right. And so as long as we start after 7:30, we do Thursdays, too. Yeah. Well, it's fair point. We do do Thursdays as well. What do we think about for Skip for you? What do we think about Thursday the 8th?

I have the affordable housing trust that night. the 15th. It says now go ahead and do it on the day before. Do it on the 7th. I'll come. Are you sure? Yeah, it's Yeah, if you just start a little bit later. Skip will just complain about it.

Honestly, that's that's the that's the reality. Is it not? All right. Let's let's intend to to convene on the 7th at 7, but we'll hold a we we'll we'll keep a plate warm for Skip um as a as a continued part of of of this of this conversation and to continue pushing from the the best of of our chartered capabilities. Right. I'm I'm very particularly interested in understanding where we would begin to to make the the contingencies where those cuts would first be seen uh and how we can if at all possible quantify but certainly can qualify the the impact that we could see through those uh because that's a a massive part of of the messaging. to Mark's point, you know, we're we're certainly running out of time. Um, but that doesn't mean that we have zero time, right? And I think nine large brains together, we we can figure out um the the best path forward here, you know, along with the select board's guidance. Angelina.

Yeah. I mean, I know that we don't have really the authority to ask for what we'd like to see, and that's more the select board giving direction, but I personally would like to see um things like the schools like um BBT and the Aggie and all these places that we send students as part of a larger discussion of like what things do we have to provide as a town and what things are we providing that are like nice to have and but we're not like obligated to provide. So I don't know, you know, Evan, as you're doing your potential cuts budget, and this is more of like a a higher level discussion I think that the select board needs to have about where we're actually spending our money and what things do we have to do versus what things are we doing that, you know, is nice to do, but it's not like we're not obligated to do it. Okay,

that's a fair way to cut that ask. Yeah. Okay, thank you all. I believe we have one last uh piece on the agenda, which is to just approve meeting minutes. I move we approve the meeting minutes for October 16th and 20th as presented. Second. All right, we have a motion to approve the meeting minutes for those two dates as presented. Um, we'll take a roll call vote. Angelina, I Skip I, Dan, I, Heather, I, Mark, I, Greg,

I, Victoria's eye. That motion um is approved unanimously. Okay. And with that, I think let's close out this particular meeting. Jay Evan, thank you very very much for answering all of our questions and for the the great presentations. This was a wonderful meeting, Madam Chair. Thank you, sir. Uh let's close it out. It's not a public hearing, right? No, you can just kind