Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Um, good point. I was uh distracted for a minute there. All right. So, it is uh what 7:03 or or so. Um, we'll start the uh August 20th, 2025 uh planning commission regular meeting. Um, and uh we'll call to order. Uh, we'll do a roll call starting from my right. Pete Pete Hack present. Lyndon Novak present. Stuart Wooters present. Paul Bregman present.

Okay. Thank you for being here. Um, with four um plan commissioners, we do have quorums so we can meet still. Um we hope that those that are not here are doing well and feel well um feel better soon as well. Um uh if that be the case um so let's go ahead and look at the adopting of the agenda. Um I don't have anything additional to add from the last council meeting. Um uh other other than I I might um ask um I'll ask for a quick update on the on the master plan status for during my during my during my request during my time. U unless there's something else needs to be added. Can I get a motion to accept the agenda as currently?

I'll move to accept the agenda as second currently written. All right. All in favor? I. Any opposed? No. Okay. Uh can we do we um need to review or update or change anything from the minutes from July 16th um uh plan commission meeting?

I did not see anything of note that needs to be addressed. So I had one um page three under a third bullet point how comments that legally non-conforming sens offenses should be able to not follow the laws. I would I guess feel that that should say um should be exempt and uh rather than not follow the laws should be so able to not follow the laws and exempt should be exempted. Yeah. Just exempted would be would be okay because that's exactly what legally non-conforming.

It just sounds better. Yeah. Yes. I don't want anything to not I don't want to break laws, but uh I guess there was a typo on there somewhere. Um anyone else catch that? So um property. [Music] I see one. Okay. Um C commissioners

um first bullet point Sally agreed that is problem and Novak expressed an increased enforcement. I think that there's a word missing of people. I think you're right. Maybe expressed an interest in enforcement of people interest. I I don't know if the right wording though is um is people encroaching on the on the property. I think it's I think it's something other than people's I don't think people can encroach. No, no, it's a I think people can trespass. Not encroaching. It's um

I mean there's trespass, right? But Because encroaching means that you're getting up to and close to I think right

trespassing is the I think trespassing. Yeah. Okay. So insert interest in increased enforcement of people trespassing. Yeah. On the property or just interest in enforcement. It shouldn't be enforcement of interest. Enforcement against people. Yeah. trespassing on the property or just period. I mean, on the property is is is redundant because trespass usually means that you're okay. We're not supposed to be we're in a space. Yeah.

Okay. Does that see fair to reflect more what you meant? Yeah. Okay. And there's a typo underneath that. Just Sarah's name is spelled incorrectly. her last name under E. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. That might Okay. Motion to accept the minutes as amended. Second. All in favor?

I. Any opposed? Okay. Good. All right. So, um we'll now um move to the official reports. Um, uh, council leaison is not here today. Um, but I'm probably doing something a little more important with his family on the village green. I perfectly think that that is right within his uh, purview to spend time with his family on such a great activity. Does that mean we should all go? We should all Well, I went earlier. So, me too.

But, uh, no, it's I think it makes perfect sense. Um so for me for my board of chairperson so um uh we had a um good council meeting from a planning perspective um and the um they were appreciative of and we were called out for by uh uh trusty ferris um on um our efforts with the HDC um and uh they're pleased that we're working together with them on trying to um uh be more unified in our decision-making um and for the ordinances in the R3 district um and taking into account their perspective um in writing these ordinances. Um and then I was also asked the uh pivotal question that happens periodically uh which is the status of the master plan. Um and so it has been submitted from my understanding because I've seen emails saying so. Um I don't know you probably all got the same

mail. Yep. Got it in the mail. I signed it. So So good. Um, so how many more how many more days do we need? Uh, October 14th.

October 14th. Now, I will say that South City of Southfield has retaliated by sending us a letter um to review theirs. So, so we have uh we have a master So, anyone's interested in um looking at the master plan for the city of Southfield. Um they are welcome to go to southfield dda.com and look for their strategic plan um uh for that they're trying to get approved. So, um that it is the the amendment it's can it it is uh comments need to be submitted by uh no later than uh Monday the 5th at um October 13th for Southfield. But it, you know, if you're looking to see what we did and looking to see what look at ours um I believe it's posted on our website um for the village, but also um city Southfield what they're doing. their bigger bigger entity. Um and uh when we go to do this this round again in the in the future um participate um read read what our communities around us are doing and uh see if their vision aligns with ours and uh and um if we uh are missing the mark then let us know. So um that would be that would be great input from the our community from our neighbors. All right. Um commissioners um those are my comments for tonight.

Uh no comments but question because I was not able to make it. Is there a report from the historic um meeting this you guys the six? Oh um yes. So we'll discuss those in the old business. I think they'll come up natur organically. Okay. Okay. That's fine. I just want to Yeah. Sorry I couldn't make that. I had issues had to take care of. Appreciate it. All right. Zoning. Zoning. Yes,

we did have a zoning meeting last month and had an interesting meeting about um giving a variance for grading on a property which eventually did pass. Um and we have another one tomorrow night which is giving me some food for thought at tonight's meeting and I'll

bring up at a more appropriate time. So just a question for grading wise. I know that um uh property um watershed is not to be changed by any construction. Um typically also the county encourages as well as the state of Michigan encourages not to change water water flow. Um so from a grading standpoint was it affecting that?

No, it was not watershed property. Um and it our our goal was strictly to discuss the variance and the water flow will still need to be need to be um examined by the engineers. But basically it was a property that in some places had a 40% grade that had to be reduced to 5% but it was not in an area that Okay. We like a hilly spot do some terracing or something. Okay.

Kind of. Yeah. Mhm. All right. Um so can we you go back to commissioners? Yeah, sure. So, um, you know, I had asked about this parking survey and Heather had done, um, the courtesy of providing this to us.

Oh, hello. That Franklin wants to be part of the show here. Um, so, um, you know, this was this was this came onto the scene just about when I was joining the planning commission in 2011. And um you know it was a really thorough parking study and um in my opinion it's the key to it's one of the keys to to the success of our businesses in the village and gets to the key issue of um you know the life of our our little downtown. You know how much parking we would need to have to make the businesses successful. Um, and it's really it just it covers all the bases. It's got diagrams for each side, east and west side of Franklin Road. Uh, it offers some suggestions for um expanding parking, emphasizes the shared parking component um and does, you know, outline some things for for Main Street Franklin um to try to spearhead. I guess that's really the challenge. And you know, I think there there can be a role for the village facilitating communication between um building owners to encourage shared parking to the benefit of everybody and increasing their property values. I think there's no question that their property values would go up if the walkability and the parking were optimized. Um so I hope this can remain something that is prominent on um everybody's

um agenda I guess personal agenda. Um, and on a related note, and I think Linda, you know about this, there was a next door posting where someone lamented that our our little downtown, you know, why aren't people doing more about helping our little downtown? And um, you know, we have some great things going on. So it's not we do have we have a lot of vacancies you know in my you know purely observational level um you could see there's a lot of there's a lot of vacancies and there's still deficient properties not not maximized um and it it probably had like 50 comments or something by the end of it. a lot of a lot of comments and uh and a lot of good ones. You know, I'm looking at who is this person who really understands the importance of walkability of parking. Turns out it's the mayor of Birmingham, Rick Nikita or something. And he, you know, people were saying, well, retail is dead. Um, you know, it's just such a hard thing to do. And he was really adamant that, you know, it can be done. And there were a lot of people who said they look I really miss I I would make my trip into Franklin every couple weeks you know go to the little market and um you know

you said right there that the main draw was the market. Sure. That's what the main draw was. Yeah. Down here in the market. Oh you know why we get some coffee after I go to the market real quick. Yeah.

Um can we can we do it at public comments? Is that all right if that's all right? But yeah, the um you know, and I've heard, you know, well, the day has come for these markets to go away, but there's a future version of of retail, and people will always like to go to cider mills and little historic towns. And um you know, we've talked about some of the possibilities of expanded walkways into some of the river areas, you know, more of a relationship with the Cider Mill, too. They have some incredible historic treasures behind their building as well that sit hidden back there and you know people could do quite a nice loop all the way around down the river behind the buildings river behind the Franklin Cider Mill and um you know be doing it without inundating the village with too much traffic. You know that's where the parking and the walking paths really come in. So, um, that's my little spiel on, uh, on this parking study. And,

uh, do you have a cop? Is it Can we get a copy of that parking study? So, it it it's available. You can print it out in your email, right? I can make you copies, but you it that's where I got this, right? Printed it. So, it's in I haven't got a printer. I go to office and I print at the office. That's about it. It came from personal stuff. Right. Right. All right. We'll send you an email so you can have access to it. Thank you.

Yeah. Um also want to recognize uh uh uh trustee Sal, our council leazison um here. Um and then al also trustee Selzer is here as a member of the public. Um um not representing council in this guy, but trustee Sal representing council for us. Um and I don't have a budget expense report for it's the new year. I don't have access. Okay. So, I'm hoping we'll be able to catch up on on We'll see. Okay. All right.

No, as long I just want to make sure we stay keep our eye on the ball on with with our budget. So, okay. So, then we'll move on from budget expense report um and go to public comments. So, please if anything that comments that we made um you'd like to make comments on or something else that's not on the agenda, you're welcome to to making comments. Hi there. Hello, Michael Seltzer. I don't have my address memorized cuz I don't memorize rental address with Franklin and with um Winston. Um I wanted to uh reference what Pete I wanted to reference what Pete was saying.

I'm I'm sorry. Um I So I I I I understand your point of view. Um I know that he lives in the village and his address. I don't remember my address. Thank you. I'm speaking now. We can request we we can the village

members of the village can look it up later. Village address is known to the to the Anyway, I'd like to say the following about what Pete was referencing. Um it is important that we on council who have suffered um so often from misinformation and slander on Next Door recognize very few people really pay attention to Next Door because it's filled with that kind of nonsense. We're all aware of that. Yeah, I did. I was the member of the community that responded to that individual Ununice Ring on Next Door for the express purpose of establishing the facts because that's often not the case. People make assumptions and assertions and so on and it's troubling to us on council. Um we've been suffering with the loss of the market basket for decades and still get criticized for losing that property. You know, as government, we have nothing to do with landlord tenant disputes and we are uh obviously being blamed for things that people can't possibly know anything about. In the case of all the vacancies in the village, unfortunately, we have some very difficult landlords and they're known to many of us and most of them have legacy buildings. They live out of state. They don't really care that much and so it's very hard to negotiate fairly with with landlords like that. So, it's unfortunate, but I think the picture that was repainted in my comments was that we're doing a lot to try to resurrect what we once had. We obviously have a difficult task before us because we've lost our entire staff. That that has to do uh nothing to do with me personally, but it's been characterized as a problem in the community and nobody really understands completely what it's about. Those who know know. Um, the bottom line is that we are very pleased to have had a major grand opening in the village just a couple weeks ago and it was the Judeaic

Art Studio and I want to speak to that because that was probably the most momentous grand opening I've ever been to. I've cut a lot of ribbons in this community in my 30 years, but this was a very important one. And the fact that we had to be guarded by police for the two hours during that grand opening and ribbon cutting um shouldn't be lost on any of us. Uh that we had a new business that we should be celebrating. Um and we had a survivor of October 7th speaking to the community. And this was a young man who went through the the horrific and heinous behavior on October 7th and lost his wife of five years. So, he was here to speak to the community and we had to have police protection. And so, I just think that's notable. I've mentioned that in a couple of places recently. Um, and I think it's important for people to know, but we are doing everything we can do in the community to bring business back and the Jay Farer uh experience is is a great one for this community. He's very devoted, very dedicated, and we're proud to have him and his entire organization. So,

thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Just as an aside on that, I actually it was a great interaction because I had responded to uh Ununice Ring on that and she called me. So, we had a really nice conversation about, you know, what's going on and um you know, talked about this event tonight and kind of what's going on behind the scenes. And um you know, I encouraged her. She has she's somebody that's lived in Franklin for a long time and has been involved in the past and I said, "You know what? You've got great ideas. Come back." Um, so perhaps she will. Good. So, it was it was a a really nice

interaction. So, something good came out of store. Well, I think she meant well, but the problem is that so many people from outside of the community read these things and they have no idea and they go, "What the hell is going on in Franklin?" you know, and that's embarrassing to us, right? Yeah. So, thank you. So, I I will offer my thoughts as well on that. And and Lord knows the the village, you know, we we're volunteers, right? Everyone works very hard at this. And um yeah, the the tone of Ununice is was a little bit condemning, but and I you know, I don't think people realize, you know, there's 3,000 of us in this village. We're not like a township with with thousands and thousands of people.

And I think if Ununice and others realized, you know what, come down here, get involved. There's a little town up north, Walloon Village on Walloon Lake.

I've been familiar with that all my life. And it was this sleepy little village with a little tiny store. Um, and it was it it had tremendous potential. I mean, pretty much one person did did this. ended up buying a lot of the buildings and they've turned it into this really wonderful Walloon village and it's so similar to our little village here. So, you know, I wish more people would realize that we're a community. We're a small community and it doesn't take much if we have landlords that aren't helping us out. It's like by all means, you know, we can figure out ways to buy these properties. You know, it's and I'm not I'm not talking about, you know, Franklin Village.

And yet we got Les Gorbach and Rabbi Benzy together. I was part of that. He didn't know Rabbi. Okay. Concerned about the economic viability of the business. We help. Can you can you talk at the podium? Sorry. There was a campaign put together by others that helped raise $100,000 to to make this work. I saw and I'm I'm proud that we were involved in that. There are some major citizens in this community uh aside from myself who were involved in that campaign and it was very successful. So, yep. On the other hand, in that same exchange, somebody brought up the post office

and said, "Why can't you get somebody to clean it up or talk to the landlord?" And I'm thinking, well, the post office owns their own building, so I'm not sure outside It it is it is privately owned. It's privately owned. It is I thought it was owned by the post office. Nope. It's privately owned. It's rented to the federal government for office. So maybe that is something Yeah. address. Very interesting. Yeah. Your turn. Yeah. You're welcome. Oh, you're welcome. The public comments. Still public comments. You're welcome.

Okay. Great. Natalyia Shupe. Um at this point, no addresses needed, so I'm not going to follow the rules. um is uh if trustees do not follow the residents should not follow. That's the bottom line here. I'm here to hear your comments please.

Okay. So I would like to say one thing about uh that post and everything. Maybe maybe the first thing we can look at is the requirements for the businesses. Let's say Peter remember you said someone gave an offer we're thinking to bike America bank but it was animal hospital uh but because it was 24 hours maybe there should be some we should ease some restrictions on what is allowed that would be maybe first step for everyone for the tenants and for the landlords that's number one maybe to look into it that that would be a helpful thing uh and number two as far as opening jud Dak studies and all of this that the police had to be involved to uh protect and everything. I am Jewish. I value everything about that. But the real reason was because it the ceremony was covering half of the road Franklin Road and there's no other way other than police is closing that roads. So to make that we are unsafe here in Franklin, someone will do something that that is not right to do. Uh I feel safe. Uh and uh we have a great chief of police. We have a great department and I would like to say that the only reason it was made you can take a look at the picture is because it was taken a half of the Franklin Road. So uh there's no more point to make those statements. So that that would be my comment too. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Any other comments from public? Trusty Sally, since you weren't here during council leazison, would you you can either do that now or however or act as public comment.

I apologize for my lateness. My kids were stuck in the balloon uh animal line. Um so fortunately, we got a sword. Did you get balloons at least? You can see we got a sword. We got a narwhale, I think, and a dog. Oh, it's a turtle. My bad. Did they survive the trip up, though? That's what I was I was worried about. Oh, yes. Can we see them? Hold them up. Hold them up, please. Nice. All right.

And the pup is in the car, so safely with air conditioning on, of course. Um, and so, uh, yeah, what the one comment that I was thinking about is we are working on creating a, um, strategy and priority meeting for the council members. And so I think that this is an extremely valuable conversation not just about the parking study but also for us to have a dialogue about whether or not we want the planning commission to look at what are some opportunities with buildings downtown properties generally um restrictions that can open up the the viability of businesses within the downtown because I think you know it's not lost on any of us in the room anybody in leadership within Franklin that that is one of the top priorities for the village and so um whatever we can do again to help provide that clear direction. I'm happy to facilitate that conversation. I don't know whether or not Pete um just in again for everybody but just your legacy of knowledge Pete um if we've previously done a study around what are potential um things that we can look at to help not just restricted uses but maintenance of buildings where you have uh I know there are some instances where a lot of the obligations fall onto the renter rather than onto the landlord. um and that can sometimes push people out into other communities and so things like that I think would be extremely helpful and like I said happy to help facilitate that dialogue and provide the direction.

That's great. Thank you. So thank you. Thank you. Okay. Any other public comments? All right. None of the none of the the three in the back that you guys are good with public comments. All right. Balloon quality anything old business. Old business. All right. So we'll move on. So, um, as you mentioned earlier, uh, um, about what went on with the historic district, um, commission meeting, it was very productive meeting. Um, uh, Chris, thank you for attending as well as, uh, Sarah, Pete, and, um, what's your face? Let's just do that. Remember, I'm super changed after six years. Like,

yeah, you usually sit over here, so I wanted to call you Sarah. Uh, Um but uh yeah, musical chairs here. So, thank you Linda also um for attending um attending that meeting. Um basically uh they were um in agreement with regards to the setbacks we had talked about um and um but they provides input and feedback with regards to fences um differing different from what we had proposed. So we'll talk about that in in B. Um but for the first part though um the the historic district in a we can go ahead and and move on move on from there. So um so I guess uh at this point um we need to uh look at uh potentially update well update whether or not we want to update the ordinance on the setbacks. um and uh and then have a public hearing once those once we approve the verbiage. Um I don't know if there's um anything additional that you would like to bring up, Chris, on that with regards to that.

I don't think so. I think if you want you can probably schedule a public hearing. There's really no special verbiage that's required. It's a change of numbers, right?

Okay. So, um, if if we feel comfortable, um, having talked about with the HTC, them feeling comfortable with it, if we feel comfortable with the verbiage from the memo we sent to HTC, which is regards to the, um, offsets, the setbacks that we talked about last month, um, and then, um, then, uh, as as long as the numbers line up, similarly, we could have a public hearing on the setback updates for HTC um, next month. uh I'm sorry, not HTC for R3 district um next month. Is there any comments or questions or thoughts about that idea and move forward on uh at least on that portion of the R3 district?

So when you say that portion, you're referring to the setback setbacks only. Yeah. Not nothing fence related. So, accessory buildings, spacing between the buildings, um the 25 ft being switched down to uh to uh the no sum total, but the just the minimum setback and that's what the HGC agreed with what we sent them over. Okay. Well, if HC agreed with it, I think there's no problem sending the setback updates over to Well, I guess the public hearing first. We have to have a public hearing, right? Yeah. So, so motion would be my motion would be to set up for a public hearing with the um uh setbacks as written and presented at HDC for public approval.

Second. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Okay. Comments? All right.

Uh I'll do comments, I guess. Um, so you know, one thing I looked at, um, was the, uh, something called an overlay district for the historic district. Um, I guess it's it's it's a a possible note for future consideration. Um, Chris, can you tell us a little bit, you know, what an over overlay district entails? You know, my my hope would be that it would allow some, you know, I know Stuart, you were concerned that if we're going to if we're going to do something for R3, it needs to apply to all R3. Um, I believe we do have some R3 that's not in the historic district.

Um, there isn't. There isn't any. No. So, it wouldn't pertain to this anyway in the It wouldn't pertain to the historic then anyway. Well, no. there all of our in the historic district. But that's uh that would be an example if there was R3 that was outside of the historic district. That's where you might want to set up an overlay district. Uh so that the uh changes to the setback regulation would apply only to the overlay uh to the historic district, right? But since the um R3 district and the historic district boundaries

are cerminous, uh there really isn't any need for an overlay district.

All right, fair enough. You know, my concern obviously is to, you know, protect the character of the historic aspects and you know, it's such a deep question of what, you know, what is what is our historic character um that it's it it's hard to get a total handle on. I mean, I don't think we're going to turn into, you know, no one's going to be raising properties in that historic district, although we do have plenty of homes that aren't historic in the historic district. Um, and there may be some thought that we could give to um, you know, how a historic house is treated differently from a non-historic house that would encourage historic preservation.

Aside from that, I have no other comments. Okay. All right. So, we'll move on to um the non-conforming fence regulations. So, for those that um uh did not have a chance to attend HTC. Um so, the main takeaway points from the HTC meeting um and fill me, you know, fill in the blanks where I mess up. Um but the main takeaway is that for a fence ordinance, the things that the historic district are concerned with is um a non-uniformity in fence structure in a single directional line. So for example, um picket fence to concrete to a brick wall to a um to to a uh um

chain chain link fence or you know all in the same stretch of the of the property, right? So basically maintaining a uniform and then when you turn the 90° um it could be something different but it needs to be somewhat cohesive. Um it could be different height it could be different but the idea is from the sight line it needs to go like a pillar before it changes the 90° to a different area. Right. Some sort of so that way at least is presentable.

That's right. Now we have a lot of I mean the historic district is really has a lot of variation a lot and it's very old. Um, so that was one of the the points um that because of its age, because of the time frame when people were being building things, they might have just done good enough and as long as they got approval, they could do that at the time because there wasn't any objection from an HTC or an ordinance at the time. Um, so they could be legally non-conforming. But the point for them was how do we is there something that we can write into the ordinance that would allow it? Now the challenge with that is um this is something that could easily be I could see easily be seeing applied across the village entirely. Um and and then that becomes a headache as well because if we make an exception for just the R3 then um or make an ordinance for just the R3 that can be part of one of the challenges. And then let me let me add to the other the other point is the historic HCC historic district commission is also um is actually interested in allowing um or encouraging uh a um not having a strip between a f between two fences that share a property line. um where using a common um what what what can a

singular a shared fence a shared fence but how do we how do we encourage that

either encourage it or how do we um allow it now I know that there's a few few properties um that it really should not be encouraged because of hazard or safety from the a proximity to a structure um whether it be a home or or an accessory building. Um so there's a so that's some of the things we have to consider as well. How do we allow how do we word it in a way that there is some sort of safety factor required for a shared property line fence? And um and and then the other the other point is that um you know we we don't want to make an ex we also need to worry about making an exception for um how the height and the opacity of the fence is along those property lines because R3 is are smaller lots but they're not encouraging um high opacity. um for fences and so we have to because that's a screen and not a fence.

Um so those are the those are the two main points that came up in the meeting with HCC. Well, hold on. Let's let's finish the points from the HC then we can account. Is that all right? Okay. Sorry. Thing about having the if you do have two fences, it's got to be far enough apart that the property can be mowed. So you're not, you know, in doing this creating So, no. So, at least four feet wide. Unsightly issue. Yeah. So, at least four feet wide. All right, Chris, please. I'm sure I missed something. Well, follow the meeting, I I reread the fence ordinance, and a couple of the issues that Gary raised are actually addressed in the fence ordinance already.

Okay. Um, for example, um, under uh 1268.28 28 B. Um it says fence materials and construction pattern must be consistent along a single lot line and fences constructed on properties where one did not exist before must be constructed of the same material along any lot line where the fence is proposed to be constructed. So that addresses that applies not just in the R3 but across the village across the village.

And then um with respect to being on the lot line, there's two provisions. Um let's see if I can find them now. One is um um a location. The fence shall be located entirely on the private property of the person responsible for the construction and maintenance of the fence. Then there's another provision that if I can find it, um,

it's not in our packet. No, no. Uh, if I could summarize it, I can't find it right now, but what it says is if you can get two property owners to agree, they can put it on the property line. So, that means they have to agree on material, height, opacity, whose side looks better than whose, right? Yeah. And then they file a joint application, then they can put it on the property line. Otherwise, it has to be uh set on the person's property who's filing the application.

Right. So that does address car. It's not that it's not allowed. I guess his his would kind of suggested that we should prohibit having um the no man's land between two fences. Right. For the R3. Okay. Right. depends that what you're saying for R3 or just anywhere in the village. It really needs to be the wording needs to be everywhere. Honestly, it really does see all the historic district and make it I want to finish hearing Pete's point. I'm sorry. No, no. I I

Yeah. No, I I mean it's, you know, our concern right now is R3. Um and um but I do believe it's a general issue. It's undesirable to have these alleyways between fences. um that are not not serviceable. Um but you know, to me, the the R3 is where it's the most pronounced. Yeah. All right. So, sorry.

I was going to say you can't really enforce something the shared property line unless it's wanted by both residents uh and they work together to afford the shared cost of it. Cases have happened in the village where that is the case. Um, and you can't, like I said, just do it in the R3. You would have to make it a villagewide thing. And the way to encourage some of that in the future is any fence that has been damaged, uh, and needs to be repaired that's been built before 2024, uh, needs to follow the new guidelines with the help and guidance of the HTC. Um Chris on a totally different part to this, but as long as we're discussing it, is there anything in the code about spear top fencing?

Is it allowed? Yes. No, it is not. No, it's not allowed. It is not allowed. Have to have flat tops all the way across because we have deer that like to jump it. Uh we know. Yeah. Goldberg and I had a severe case of deer kebabs last year. Oh. And it was ugly. We had them under Connie. We we we address that. No poking things on the top of fences. Yeah. Section. Um but if you have them already in the grandfather, so they're legally non-conform. Yeah. That's unpleasant to wake up. That's unfortunate. Yeah. Um yeah, that's address. So good. Um thank you.

They have to have a ball at least a certain diameter. Um if it is a if it comes if it's a metal rail fence a metal like picket fence then it has to have a ball on top that's a certain diameter that's three inches three two or three

yeah to prevent that. So, I guess in terms of this, you know, so the the what we what we've talked about so far, you know, we're focusing on the R3 district fence issues. Um, but any changes that we make would be villagewide. Is that essentially? Well, we would want to My point is if we make a change in the R3 district, we can. But if it makes sense to update villagewide, try try and minimize the number of exceptions we have in the village is probably helpful for code enforcement as well as for people interpreting the the village ordinances. Absolutely. But we can do it. We can we can have Right. R3. Yes. You know,

these these these apply for R3 specifically. There's eight pages of fence regulations already. Right. So, so, so with your with what you looked at and what I've what I'm understanding from the V our we left the meeting last month with the opinion that no changes to the fence ordinance, we should just enforce the fence ordinance that we have. Um, and we took that to HCC. They made some comments or recommendations. It sounds like those were already considered in the fence ordinance anyway. Um so the one issue that is not I I don't think addressed is this opacity issue. The one opacity. Okay.

There are um Gary said um let's see if I can find his comment. Uh it was a general comment. He says residential fences should have some degree of opacity. Now, they didn't there are different types of fences have different degrees of opacity in the fence regulations, but um I'm not sure what he meant by that comment. I think well, my understanding is homes that back up to commercial um properties, they have um 100% opacity or some high level opacity,

right? um the homes that are strictly residential or at least fences within that are strictly residential um they can maintain some level of opacity but they cannot be 100% opa opaque unless they receive an exception from the the zoning board of appeals. Um and so I know that in a few instances uh where a home backs up to a commercial property and they continue the fence either on their property towards the road and um continue the fence shared fence or or fence similar to the then then they maintain the similar opacity because the look is similar. Um, and if they turn the corner, in some cases they might maintain it because the look is similar and it would just look out of joint if you went from full opacity to a lower fence that was not fully opaque. Um, it's it's um, but that has they in that case it would have to still go through ZBA to get it approved. If it's not approved, then they have to pick some sort of fence that has some some level of transparency whether it's picketed or but not stockade, right? So, I don't know. I I'm not 100% sure on the ordinance with regards to a percentage of of gap required.

Um, it differs for for every type of fence, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because like I I for some reason 35% is ringing out and 40 is sticking out in my head. 40 was the number I remember. Well, that I'm not sure like it's opac 37.5. Well, I'm not sure if it's opacing for fencing or for cart tint. Right. So, um, so I don't know. Um, garden enclosures, it's 20% opacity. That's a garden enclosure though that you don't you want light to, right? Infiltrate your garden.

Maybe they're a poor gardener, but if they go higher than 25% that it'll be revealed. Well, it depends on what you're growing. It depends on what you're growing. Uh yes. Yeah. Okay. Um I do we feel like we're going to make some movement on the fence changes or do you want to continue to digest what we talked about with the HTC or look into it another month? I kind of want to for fences. Yeah, I think we can ruminate a little bit.

Yeah, I can. But I do have a question about screening. I've had a hard time finding references to screening. Um, you know, it seems like screening is desirable and appropriate in some cases, but do you but I haven't had any luck finding where that language is. That's not in the fence ordinance. No, that's the the Well, what's the question oncreen? just the definition what we have or what you what it looks like something like that where okay you know when does a scheme become a fence that's in section 1268.29 29.

Okay. And um the part that um I think we're most interested in is is the part that says that um when you have a um commercial property next to a residential property, you need a wooden fence or a living fence or masonry wall that's going to be uh 4 and 1/2 to 6 feet 6 and 1/2 ft in height.

But that's to protect the homeowner from the view of the commercial property. Correct. Um but with regards to screening, I think um passed a print out to Okay. But this is for screening for residential. Is that um is that is this fence? Is it the screening or fence? Well, that's

Yeah, that's um there's a different I think it's a different Thank you. Thank you. Okay. I would in in terms of screening though for properties that's not based on business for nor residential. I think it should be more that we have the encouragement of if you want privacy screening, we should as a village encourage natural screening such as our vites bushes which is part of the screening which is part of the screening but it's natural screening that can grow up to 20 ft but it also gives us the greenery that we desire for the village. So it solves both the immediate personal need of the resident and it doesn't break any violations. Well, the screening also already includes that as an option from um

Yes. I'm saying that it should be more encouraged like, oh, I want to get a screen. You should get a tree. Gotcha. That that's what I'm saying. Yeah, that would come up during site plan review. Yeah, that would be a site plan review. So, that Yeah. So, um let's let's table this for next month to discuss more when we have more planning on fencing. Is that all right?

Yes. Um, we've given a good summary, I think, of what the HCC recommended. Um, and then we'll definitely I think hopefully we'll have more public at the public hearing next month and we can have more comments about fences. Um, we we have a few people that show up. Thank you for coming and talking about it with us. Um, but uh maybe we'll have some more ideas and thoughts as well from other villagers. So, I'm not asking for you guys. Are you good? It's fine. Okay. That's fine. You're welcome. You're welcome to give a comment before we close out the topic if you Okay, I'll I'll just briefly something new. Come on.

Something new. Nothing. Uh so I just I' I was not able to come to the uh historic district meeting, but I uh watched and uh as you just discussed, most of it already in our ordinances regardless R3 or overall. But I just want to remind everyone that in the whole village, six-foot privacy fences are not allowed. Only privacy screens. That's the bottom line. And when if you would come to my flat roof and see the district, historic district, what I see, you would understand. putting six-foot privacy fences. And for 30 years, the ordinances have been written 30 years ago to not to to uh so we don't have any more of those fences. And if you look if we put now back in our ordinances um you you you would imagine small irregular lots with this boxes of fences because when you think in historic district it doesn't work like on regular lots if it's sometimes when you think oh this is the front. No this can be a back and then we have all around the whole properties everywhere. So it will not look good at all. Uh and that's what was uh we only have as we discovered six fences left. So I I I will um discuss more at the meetings um that uh you guys will propose. But again please keep in mind uh there is also number seven Mr. If uh there's number seven also that uh is joining uh property lots not just unaligned but how to there should be a setback

if there's if there is uh not enough space to maintain and let me tell you uh just recently uh on August 7 uh we had an incident the police had to be called uh Because we have now less than one one foot of our neighbor property behind the fence and the weeds were 4 foot long. Not just the fence in our windows. Now this weeds 4 foot long in our windows and everywhere. And the neighbor decided and village allowed to spray with wheat killer

over the 6-ft privacy fence which almost hurt our son spraying in his eyes and it hurt uh and it damage our property. So uh this also this is why we don't need changes the ZBA can handle they handled for 30 years they can handle the setbacks and everything. They take every individual case individually and they make determination. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. So, um thank you. Um so, we'll move on now to um region uh to control white nuisance abatement. So, uh Chris, in our last meeting, we discussed um the updating the table for council with regards to um uh blighten abatement. Um, and as you defined in our last meeting that um that that nuisance ordinances are typically what take care of what are our largest concerns about these. Um, and I appreciate you adding the column that says whether or not an ordinance is covering the type of nuisance and a description of that nuisance. Um, in addition to what is covered and which ordinance covers that nuisance. Um, would you like to go ahead and give a overview? Um and um I feel comfortable well let's talk about it a little bit but I feel comfortable with sharing th this level too to council. Um but go ahead please.

Well um as you mentioned I added the third column and so basically um what it says is whether the um particular nuisance is uh addressed in the village code or is not addressed in the village code. So for example, inoperable junk or abandoned motor vehicles. Uh yes, that is addressed in section 1268.14. Inoperable recreational vehicles, equipment, and watercraft. Um 1268.14E deals only with operable recreational vehicles. So that particular issue is not addressed. parking and storage of uh commercial vehicles and residential districts. Um that is addressed in um 1268.14D.

Let me pause you right there. Do we want to go through every single one of these tonight or are we okay with the additions he's made? I'm okay with the additions he's made. The third column is exactly what I wanted. shows that we have 10 types of nuisances not addressed in our codes and I think we should focus on those as opposed to the entire list because they're already well we're going to send these to council and ask them if it's if they want us to address them is that something you'd like us

yeah I think that this is uh in a very good stage so thank you Chris um for the work for us to be able to do to at least facilitate a conversation of where do we have coverage where don't we and then that way we can start to you can introduce it at the next meeting we can have a conversation around it and then hopefully either within that meeting or the meeting following we can provide specific here's where we think coverage would be appropriate or where we want to expand coverage compared to where we wouldn't and then that way you guys can focus more narrowly. Yeah, exactly. Perfect.

Yes. There there's one thing that's not on there and I know it's been an issue in the past which is number of vehicles parked in a driveway because even if they're operable there are homes where on a daily basis I'm seeing eight 10 vehicles parked in front of the house and I I kind of feel like that needs to be addressed. I think we do have pretty you know we did we did review this a few years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. should be I mean to me that would be well you're not talking about commercial vehicles commercial you're talking about res I'm talking about pleasure whatever what do you call them but there

everyday vehicles there is one most I've been driving by frequently and I have never gone by there there were less than eight cars in the driveway if they fit all in the driveway they all in the driveway that's really what it is that's the driver's for but I mean I would think that there should be some limit to the number of vehicles that can be parked for longer than we should talk to council about that. I say my driveway can fit 55 vehicles. Well, you just cuz you can fit around. I mean, I think most like 18, but yeah. I mean, I wish that my neighbors fit more vehicles on that driveway and have people visiting because otherwise parked in my yard.

But I'm talking about this is not I I don't care if somebody has a party or something, but that I I would think that to some neighbors it would be a nuisance having to look at on a daily basis that many cars parked in their driveway. Are they all licensed? If they're not licensed, then I believe that I'd be more focused on are there any complaints coming from the neighbors to the village about them? Because if there's not, I don't think it'd be a thing that needs to be addressed unless you're a next door neighbor in the eight car. I I don't know. I just

But you're also coming from a perspective of a real estate agent who Yes. trying to if you try and sell a property adjacent to that and you would are looking at what would how many buyers or how many people would be turned off by moving to our village because their next door neighbor has x number of cars. But you could also increase the price if you find a guy that's a car guy wants to live next door to them. Well, but you know I not as many. I just I I think that for some people that would be an issue. I mean, eight to 10 people going in and out and starting their cars and well, coming in and I I don't know. I just I think that I think it's hard to enforce because let's say you have eight people living in a house and they're all family. They all and they're all drivers and they all drive to work. Like where

Yeah. Like they're not in the streets is what I'm saying. Like at least in the driveway, not blocking the the residential roads. It's tough. I I I understand your point and and I think that um I'm just giving you a hard time just for argument sake. That's stand in line, but we should switch seats. I don't want to be in the middle of this. I need my chair back. Um no, I think but good work, Chris. I appreciate it. I didn't mean to like cut you off, but that's okay. But I also I think the one issue is uh whether you want a more comprehensive nuisance uh section in the ordinance rather than have all these disjointed things throughout the code. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. A cohesive what is a nuisance ordinance. No, I and I think that's something that I think your recommendation to us is also the recommendation we make to council, right? which is is basically a comprehensive nuisance abatement ordinance that covers these items rather than having to look everywhere for which which ordinance how do can we consolidate. Right.

Yeah. I think the problem we ran into before with this is that um with commercial vehicles there were two or three locations that Sarah Traxler found that talked about commercial vehicles. So when the court code ordinance person went to go talk to the family that was in violation or the home that was in violation, they pointed to another ordinance that allowed what they were doing and the other what whereas the ordinance that was being cited against the commercial vehicle um that was sitting there overnight for period long periods of time. Um they the ordinance officer basically said I don't know what to do because the ordinance isn't clear. And so we had to basically remove a whole section of our ordinance because it was split apart. So, um I think I think um find making sure that when we do a comprehensive nuisance abatement, if we do that, if council directs us to do that, making sure we extract out properly all of the any potential contradictions. So, yeah.

Do you think um just sending this letter to council or should I address one that's addressed specifically to council? I think this is fine as is. I think it's fine as is. It's it's the recommendation made to planning commission. I can as representative or someone else wants to represent for me um as rep as representative from Carolina commission share this with council and and go from there. I don't think that this is I don't think there is I don't I don't know what we would need to really change to make it marketably different for them. Um I think they get the idea. Um it also gives them some insight as to how our process goes and they can read it what we received as well. Very good.

So I think that's fair. Thank you. This is good work. Um, it definitely I think it meets the spirit of what was being asked of us. Um, and uh, I appreciate it. Thank you. Okay. All right. So, next agenda item meeting to adjourn. Any second? Second. All in favor? I I Nobody opposed. Nobody.