Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Okay.

Okay. Good evening one everyone. I'd like to call this January 27th, 2026 meeting of the Hillsdale Burough Planning and Land Use Board to order. We'll begin with the open public meeting statement read by Deput Dep deputy secretary Tanya followed by the pledge of allegiance. This meeting is being held in accordance with the open public meetings act. The notice of this meeting was published in two newspapers according to law and time and place of this meeting have been posted in a prominent location in Burough Hall. Please stand for the pledge of allegiance. I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you everyone and for the public for helping us and when you're ready Tanya we'll have a roll call of the board. Chairwoman Kates yes. Vice Chair Rean here. Secretary Raymond. Mr. Alter here. Mr. Freriedman, Mr. Gre here, Dr. Weinberg, Mr. Hip here, council Zetti here, Mayor Shinfield here. Also present is board attorney Miss Federico, board engineer, Mr. Satil, and board planner Miss.

Thanks, Tanya. At this meeting, at this time, we're going to open the meeting to the public. And this is if anyone has any items or issues other than those that we're hearing this evening or that may come before the board on another evening. Is there anyone that would like to approach the board on any other matter? Seeing none, I'll close the meeting to the public and I just want to say briefly to the public, we have the few matters on the agenda tonight. So, um we will get to all of you and uh we are recording tonight. So uh please just no talking so that everyone at home or anyone who's watching can hear the recording and thank you for being here. So we'll move on to uh we have resolutions for our planning board officers and we can do them all at once. Okay.

Okay. So we'll do all three of the resolutions. Chairperson, vice chairperson, and secretary. Do I have Thank you. Mayor Shinfield, do I have a second? Second. Second, Mr. Alter. Chair McKits. Yes. Vice Chair Rearen. Yes. Mr. Alter. Yes. Mr. Gre. Yes. Mr. Hip. Yes. Council Leazison Kleti. Yes. Mayor Shinfield. Yes. Motions passed.

Thanks, Tanya. Moving on to invoices from CSG Law. There's four invoices for total $1,777. Good thing that's not 67. Do I Do I have a motion? Take your time. After you're good, I'll take a motion. Motion. Who is that? So you see Mhm. Chairwoman Case, yes. Vice Chair Rean, yes. Mr. Alter, yes. Mr. Gre, yes. Mr. Hip, yes. [clears throat] Council Lean Kleti, yes. Mayor Shinfield, yes.

Motion's passed. Thank you. Moving on to invoices for Chris Dutil. Looks like we only have two now. Chris caught up. So, $1,15. Please review and I'll take a motion. Motion. Motion. Mr. Alter. Second. Second. Mr. Rear. Chairwoman Keates. Yes. Vice Chair Rearen. Yes. Mr. Alter. Yes. Mr. Greet. Yes. Mr. Hip. Yes. Council Lei. Yes. Mayor Shinfield. Yes. Motion's passed. Thank you, Tanya. At this time, we are going to have a public hearing from our burough planner, Miss Darlene.

Yeah. Does it say that? Oh, my fault again. Meeting minutes for approval. January 8th, 2026. Please [clears throat] review.

Motion. Thank you. Second. Second. Ed alter. I'm going to call who is at the meeting. Chairwoman Case. Yes. Vice Chair Rearen. Yes. Mr. Alter. Yes. Mr. Hit. Yes. Council Lei. Yes. Mayor Shanku. Yes. Motion pass. Thank you. Trying to keep up with the mayor's uh tempo here. I know. I can't I can't do it like you. This poor woman has got five. You represent 450 pounds. [laughter] What? [clears throat] Okay. Um, thank you. So, welcome darling. We're very happy to have you and happy to hear your presentation for the planning board tonight.

Yes. Thank you. Uh, before sit down your screen. Do you swear that any testimony about tonight's truth? Yes, I do. Darlene A. Green.

Good evening everyone. Uh I am here tonight to uh one go over the amended housing plan, but also I'm actually appearing with some good news, which is a nice change of pace because typically when I'm reappearing to amend a housing plan, it's all doom and gloom. Um as the board recalls, last summer we had to adopt a new housing element and fair share plan to address the bureau's fourth round obligation. We had to do so before the deadline of June 30th. The burough filed the housing plan timely and then we awaited the challenge time period. During that time period, we received one challenge from Fair Share Housing Center. Although we were not alone, they challenged over 400 housing plans. So, it wasn't that we had some deficiency. They just like to file challenges. The good news was that no developer challenged our housing plan, which really helped us to fair the mediation process much better than many other towns that receive developer challenges. uh we were forced to mediate with fair share housing center in October and November and ultimately those mediations were uh resulted in a mediation agreement that the governing body executed in December of last year. So what I think is important to note is that there were some major wins through this process. First and foremost, our fourth round vacant land adjustment, which was one of the primary items that Fairchair Housing Center challenged, which remember we had an RDP, realistic development potential of four that we have to satisfy. That four remains intact as we sit here tonight. That was a major win for the burrow. Many other towns had their vacant land adjustments challenged and were not successful for a host of various reasons in maintaining the number they had filed with the program. Uh secondly, through this mediation process, no new sites were added to the housing plan that the board adopted last

June. And then lastly, we had included in the plan Hillsdale House, not only for its original controls, but the fact that through its various um outside agency controls, we'll be will have a total of 60 years of deed restriction controls. We submitted enough information to prove those extension of controls and were to able to secure an additional 99 credits for that facilities just by submitting the paperwork. Uh so those were the major wins for the burrow. The changes, there's really two changes that necessitate this housing plan coming back before the board tonight. First, during the mediation process, Fairchure Housing Center questioned the Bank of America site. Uh that is actually one of the ordinances that were the council introduced and referred to you that's on your docket for master plan consistency review. That is the uh mixeduse 2 district. Fair share housing center questioned whether or not that site was really realistic because it had not yet redeveloped. And our response was, well, it's a bank and they're still in business and they're allowed to remain a bank until they decide to no longer be in business at that site. So, one of the um settlements that we reached was that we would increase the density on that site from 20 units to the acre to 25. So the board is aware if all three sites that are in that um zone were redeveloped, that's only a difference of seven total units over the acre plus site. So not a real change. Mind you, they did not require us to change the um yard setbacks. They did not require us to change the height, anything else, just that density. And then the second change that's reflected in the housing plan in front of you tonight is the Patterson Street

redevelopment area. The redevelopment area as it exists allows up to 28 units to the acre with a 15 to 20% set aside depending on tenure. And then if a developer came to the burrow and negotiated a density bonus in exchange for a community benefit, any unit above 28 did not require an affordable housing set aside. Fair housing center was not happy with it. even though they signed off on on that provision in 2018, they realized that they were missing out. And so part of our negotiated agreement was that we would now have a 20% set aside regardless of tenure. The reason there was a difference between 15 and 20% historically was because rental units received a bonus. That family rental bonus is now gone. So there's no reason to give a uh reduction in units to rental developers. So the proposal is 20% set aside on um any development up to 32 units to the acre and then for anything that's 32 to 40 units an acre there is a 15% set aside. So once again they did not mandate that we increase the density in the redevelopment area which is a good thing. They did not demand that we change any of the bulk standards. It's just now having these set aides within the already adopted redevelopment plan. So the housing plan that you have in front of you tonight updates the timeline that's on page three. We also updated the section on the state development and redevelopment plan because that has been uh adopted since the board took action in June. And also on pages 66 and 67 you will see that we added the text in about changing the Bank of America site. added text in about changing the redevelopment um plan set aides and also we were required to move the burrowwide set aside ordinance

that's been in place since roughly 2018 from the third round unmet need to the fourth round unmet need and those changes are reflected on pages 66 and 67. So that is my very brief summary because the changes are that minor. It's actually refreshing to say the changes are that minor. Thanks, Darling. We're going to turn over to um Tom in a second. I just have one question that is popping into my head. So, now the redevelopment zone uh area is zoned for 28 acres a unit, and you said that could go up to 40, as high as 40. Does that mean a developer could come and request 40, but we're not obligated to give the 40?

The 40 is only in exchange for a community benefit. So, that provision still remains in the redevelopment plan. Um you'll recall that today as the plan reads they get 28 units to the acre as of right and then any density above that is negotiated with the mayor and council and there has to be a community benefit. Now, the way it's going to be revised and actually something you will be seeing at your next planning board meeting because mayor and council will be introducing that ordinance next week at their meeting and referring it to you for master plan consistency will be that 32 up to 32 units to the acre will be as of right. And if a developer wants to seek more than 32 units to the acre, they have to once again negotiate with the mayor and council for that community benefit.

So the 28 is changing to 32. Yes. Okay. But that's we're not voting on that tonight because the council still has to adopt that. It's part of the housing plan the and it is part of our mediation agreement. So we all ultimately have to affffectuate that in the housing plan and then the regulatory teeth is the amended redevelopment plan. Okay. So we are adopting that tonight. That's part of the housing plan. Okay. I just wanted to make sure everybody knew that. All right. Tom, do you want to wait till you hear the board's questions or do you want to comment now? I have nothing to add. You have nothing to add at this point. Uh ju just

I guess one point of clarification. Um the redevelopment plans, it's baked into the housing plan as you mentioned, but the redevelopment plan itself will be amended. Yes. To reflect those changes and presumably that might come back to the planning board. It will be here at your next meeting, right? Okay. Just to thanks. Okay. Thank you. [clears throat] Um, let's see who's down there. Seth, any questions? I don't really have any questions except to say that it sounds like positive development. I appreciate your hard work. Council Leazison Kleti. No, my question is answered at the council level. Appreciate all the hard work on this great outcome.

And just so you know, they get they can vote again, but through a planning lens. So, yes, Ed. So what's the current density of Patterson? Is it higher than 40

in the redevelopment area? So right now in the redevelopment area, a developer can get 28 units to the acre and then there is allowed on top of that an additional 32 units to the acre if they reach a an agreement with the mayor and council and provide a community benefit. So the redevelopment plan will actually be decreasing in density. It's it's actually the inverse of what usually happens when you're dealing with fair share housing center. Okay. Mr. R.

Um so maybe I'm mistaken. Are we talking about rehab plan agreement or the redevelopment? This is redevelopment Patterson Street. Yes. So, this is all pertaining to what the future for downtown because you said Bank of America. So, Bank of America has its own separate ordinance. That's the MU2 um ordinance that regulates it. Then the redevelopment plan guides the properties off of Patterson Street. This does obviously not affect the development that's already under construction that was approved by the board of West Street. I see that for the townhouse, please. There is uh that was West Street was already included in the I remember you talking about it last time. It was in the June housing plan. There's been no changes to that.

Okay. Um and just quick question. Um letter E, architectural requirements number nine. Uh the reviewing body shall have the ultimate power to approve the architectural plans. Who's the reviewing body? You're looking at the West Street ordinance. The 26-03 ordinance. 03. So this one I No, it's it's got to be 04. No, the 03 is the is the one for Bank of America. Oh, I'm sorry. And then it turns the page and then 04. You okay? Staple together, you know. That's okay. Uh E, I'm sorry. E number nine. It's the last sentence. Just reviewing body shall power.

You Well, assuming it's a planning board application, you are the reviewing body. Conversely, if it's going to the zoning board, then they are the reviewing body. Okay. So, your point is there would be no other board reviewing it aside from is it the council or is it the planning joint? No, it would be whether it's the board in acting in its planning capacity or the zoning capacity. That's the question. Should that be in their planning and zoning? I mean, they already adopted and it seems like they already have the vote ready to be signed. So, but we got a verbal. It's on. [clears throat] Okay. I'm good with it. Okay. All right. Thank you. You're welcome. M. [laughter] Yeah. Uh, I don't think I have any questions.

Okay. Shinfield, you don't need to hear from me again, do you? If you have a question, I'm happy to answer. I don't have any questions. I'm just always happy to see you. And I You guys have no idea. She led us through this unbelievably um through two rounds with the program and I we couldn't be happier with the outcome. This is really some phenomenal work and uh you you deserve to be recognized for it because you led that effort. Thank you. You should do your research right those hostdale house credits. Chris, anything you want to add? looking at. Sure.

Okay. So, board, no other thoughts. Let's try another one. Okay. So, at this point, do we go by each ordinance to adopt or can we do them all at once? Oh, sorry. I'm going to open to the public. Are there any questions that anyone has about the fair share housing plan and how that affects the master plan and the ordinances that we're voting on tonight? Seeing none, I'll close the meeting to the public. Okay. And how do you advise we vote? Like we vote them all at once or do you advise we do each once read each one or vote on it or Okay. So we

each one. All right. So let's see if we can all align. So it looks like it's first ordinance number 2603. Stephen, that's the one you were referencing. Uh no, that was the one stapled on top of the one I was referencing. Okay. [clears throat] I believe this 03 is the Bank of America site ordinance. So this is the only change in this ordinance is changing the density from 20 to 25 units to the acre. Okay. And the grand scheme seven more units, right? That's assuming all three sites are redeveloped. Seven.

Just let's just give the board um some time to review the details and then when we're ready, we'll have a motion. Go ahead. If I would anyone has nothing against I'll just make the motion.

Sure. Mr. Rearen, is there a second? Second. Vice Chair Reen? Yes. Mr. Alter? Yes. Mr. Grief? Yes. Mr. Hip? Yes. Council Leazison Kleti? Yes. Mayor Shino? Yes. Chairman Kates? Yes.

Motion's passed. Thank you. We'll move on to ordinance number 2604 which is attached to 03. Yes. So 2604 is the ordinance to affectuate the 100-101 West Street town home development. This is this would produce a total of 18 units, four of which would be affordable. It also um contemplates although it cannot affixuate a partial vacation of West Street. That obviously the vac vacation will have to go through the mayor and council. But you'll notice in here there is some reference to West Street combined into two lots that we're going to give them a portion of that street to make it one property.

And it backs [snorts] up against the fence on the train track. So we're not really giving up on any real usable municipal land straight.

Tom, you don't have any comments on this, right? No, I think the the most significant finding is that it's an ordinance that implements the the housing plan. Okay. To preserve the burrow's immunity. So, it's uh having enhancing the m enhancing what we currently have and consistent with the master the housing element. Correct. From a consistency standpoint, it's it's very much consistent with the housing element. Fair share plan. Okay. Either Chris or Tom. Uh they're proposing impervious coverage of 85% with this one. Is that comparable to other townhouse zoning we have?

Well, there's there's the master plan question and there's the zone question. Um I don't have the zoning ordinance in front of me. Um I'll note that one that site in particular I think is mostly a surface parking lot. So it may be a net reduction in total. So all things considered it would seem to be potentially an improvement. I don't I don't have direct answer to your question. I I know the board just went through something very similar with something paved and then I think it's a reduction actually. Okay. Slightly. So right now it's currently building occupied and full parking lot basically

essentially. So it could be deemed well is an improvement to what it is. Okay, if you're ready, I'll take a motion. Motion second. You got that? Mhm. Okay, first chair Rean. Yes. Mr. Alter. Yes. Mr. Grief. Yes. Mr. Hip. Yes. Council Leazison Kleti. Yes. Mayor Shinfield, yes. Chairwoman Keys,

yes. Thank you. Motion's passed. Okay. And then 2605, which is the change in the set aside from 15 to 20%. Correct. Correct. And that was actually in our June housing plan. We just didn't effectuate the ordinances until we were through with mediation. Yeah. Which is obviously consistent with the housing element. Creates more affordable housing. more for which is community benefit. When you're ready, I'll take a motion. Motion, Mr. R. Alter. Vice Chair Rearen. Yes. Mr. Alter. Yes. Mr. Greed. Yes.

Mr. Hip. Yes. Council Lee Zetti. Yes. Mayor Shinfield. Yes. Chairwoman Mates. Yes.

Motions passed. Thank you. And we also have to approve the resolution adopting the 2026 housing element and fair share plan upgrade update to the master plan. So this says uh resolution 2608. So the board can look through that Motion

Mr. Rear. Second. Mayor Shfield.

Chairman Mates. Yes. Vice Chair Veron. Yes. Mr. Alter. Yes. Mr. Green. Yes, Mr. Hip. Yes. Council Leon Fleti. Yes. Mayor Shinfield. Yes. Motion's passed. Thank you. So, we thank all our professionals, particularly you, Darlene, because uh your wonderful work, which we've all been witness to. Um, so just it sounds like we will then be approving something on our meeting on the 12th. And we I actually have a list. Oh, okay. Just as a heads up, we will love you for that. I I I don't know about that, but just remember, I'm just the messenger. Okay,

it's all about getting done before March 15th. So, next week on the mayor and council's agenda, it will be to introduce the amendments to the redevelopment plan, introduce a new affordable housing ordinance, and because that's located within your land use ordinance, it has to come here for master plan consistency, and also the development fee ordinance is also housed underneath your zoning ordinance. So, those three items, assuming they are introduced next week, will be sent to you guys for master plan consistency review on the 12th so that the mayor and council can adopt them in advance of the March 15th deadline. Those will be the last three items that have to come to planning board. Okay. And we get that the first week in March for mayor and council. We do that the first week in March to adopt then. Yes. Yes. And obviously, you don't need to be here for that. You won't

No, they're very straightforward. And I'm not worried because you've got Tom. You're in good hands. I don't Tom can He's probably writing 56 of those himself. He's a busy man himself. All busy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I'm If you can't, we could probably the board could probably send you any questions they have for comments. All right. We'll we'll coordinate together. Yeah. Cool. Okay. [clears throat] Anything else I need to do official? Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you guys very much. Good to see you. Thanks again. When's the next time we can see you? We won't. Hopefully in the 10 years. [laughter] In 10 years. Five? No, the fiveyear look back. Oh, yeah. She'll be here. You'll be here in 10 years. I don't know about the rest of us. Chris and Ed will be here. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Okay. My agenda. One day at a time. [clears throat] Okay. Um, sorry. One moment. So, um, we're going to move on to our next order of business, which is a concept review, and this is for 37 Pasc Road. And yes, please you can come down. Okay. Hi, how are you? We're just going to take your name and address for our records. Lou Chelini, 22 Ruth Place Parkridge. Do you have this last? I have it. Okay, great. Thank you so much. Just

Sorry. Before you begin, I just wanted to just let the board know, which I'm sure you're already aware. Yeah. For concept review, we're not even taking testimony. So, it's up to the board whether or not they want to give you feedback. It's really an informal presentation and if you want to give feedback, you can. If you're not going to be bound by it, so any feedback you get, they don't change your mind. Um, again, you're not giving testimony, you're just presenting. It's more like observational. Yeah. And if they want to give you feedback, they can. But

that's what I'm hoping for. Yeah. Um, does any So, the board are you clear? Is everybody clear about our role and how we'll approach this? You'll just hear a presentation. You don't have to give feedback. If something comes to mind that you'd like to share, you're not held to this. It's not a hearing. Um, it's informal. So, Okay. So, um, why don't you tell us what you're proposing and why you're before the board.

All right. Um, first of all, I've been building in this area, Park Ridge, Hillsdale, Montdale for 40 years. I know many people. We've done with Chris and the planner before. Um, I met with the B administrator on this this project of 37 Pascat. Um, I could easily come in for just a two lot subdivision, but when I'm speaking to the administrator at the time, he said that there's possibility of maybe it would fit into your affordable housing program, which I think right now might be satisfied your needs for the year. I don't know how that works if it's once a year that this you go through this or decade

or decade. Okay. Yeah. As far as that. So, my concept on the the two boards, the two plans were um you know, there's pros and cons to everything. And I wanted to do uh senior ranches. People are living longer and people can't take their parents into the house um the way they used to. So, we were trying to um develop a concept to utilize this this this piece of property to to its to its fullest. Um it is a 15,000 square foot zone and um I do have uh six small ranches. They're like 30 by 50 uh ranchers to uh like I said to help out the senior program, you know, form an HOA um and uh you know, set this up so that I assume we would cater to people of Hillsdale first. It's the word's going to spread through the Hillsdale before we go into any other towns or or uh you know, people that qualify to you know, come into the into this program. So, it's um right next door to the uh you have a group home there and one across the street. So, it's that end of Pasc Road on its way to Washington Township. And um basically the two plans sometimes I put in a lot of streets. The town doesn't really the maintenance of a street, you know, is a lot. So, one concept has a small uh small code sack and then a roadway just for the people to go back to their homes and they have their own driveways. There's some additional parking. The other program is a full it's a cold sack, not fully round. Uh cold sacks are normally 90 ft around. Um, uh, I'm

dealing with two different, uh, plans right now. And the fire chiefs usually want at least the opportunity to get three trucks if they can side by side, no matter what you put in there. That's their biggest thing for in order to service a house properly. So, I'm dealing with that in Riverville as well as in Harrington Park. I just finished one. Um so there would be variances for sure with this type of ranch because we with this concept either these people aren't looking for big yards you know we would be taking care of the outside the um snow removal of the sad the outside maintenance of the buildings you know we would have to that would all be set up on whatever concept that you know we decide to you know to go forth with so I was just looking to be pointed in direction a little Um myself, I'm leaning towards the the longer street. Um it also has a park if you're going to do something in the in the right hand corner. Um it also could be just additional parking. People have guests, so you have to accommodate, you know, for you know, for that as well. So um that's where we stand right now. Um, of course, typical engineering is going to go through for my engineer to uh Chris and you know, we're going to have to have planners. I'm going to have to, you know, uh, it's be a regular application and bring that, you know, bring that into you. I was just um, like a little feedback, like I said, since I met with the administrator said, why don't you go talk with the board and and get the

So, you met with the burough administrator and he told you to come. Come to the board. Yeah. Okay. And uh that's where where I am right now. So I I would take any you know crits or you know comments and you know if someone uh doesn't like the idea of of you know of advantages for the town. I don't know. Um who did those drawings there? Uh I do. Okay. And you're you're the contractor. I'm a developer. You're the developer. The is the is there an owner of the property? I'm doing joint venture. Yes. With the owner. So, you're the owner and developing it. Okay. Thank you. Um board, do you need to do you want to the Can you all see the design? Does that

I gave we gave the flyers right to the board. Okay. I'm just making sure that they can see everything. Okay. Does anyone from the board have a question or comment? Um these are could be suggestions. You're not going to say before before Chris, [laughter] go ahead. The attorney, this is a devariance application, so we're not supposed to talk about devariance applications informal. Am I correct about that? I think that's right. Yeah. Um because it's a major I was going to say I didn't know what I think that's actually correct. So I would say anticipating that there may be a devariance then I would say well then we can't really give comment.

You could talk about site planning issues only but not any merits or demerits of the actual use application in the future. So I'm just saying just be cautious. Yeah. So when you say site plan, you're talking about design elements versus you can look at the design elements of it like variance [snorts] qualities, right? And also this we may not realize this. This isn't the first time this property's been in play. Back in 1999, I got the files here. Uh somebody else came in to do two single family houses here as well. Also had to kill you just soon. I don't want you to have a heart attack here. There's freshwater wetlands located in the back of the property.

Now, I know you didn't do a delineation yet because it's going to cost you5 or $10,000, but I would caution you that that could be zero 50 or 100 foot buffer. If it's 150 foot buffer, you just took the property down to just a one one building, right? So, I want you to be careful on that. Okay. You could have this. It's online. You can find this online. That's really important feedback. That's part of the I just don't want him to go too far along. Yeah. Go along with it. Yeah. If you don't spend a lot of money, if it's you got wetlands back there, you're gonna be So it's But it seems like it's on the other guys property. Yeah. Yeah. But you're saying if there's a buffer still a buffer, it's still bumper. Yeah. Just be careful. I think there was some illicit illicit. I know there's drainage back there.

I some elicit use of the property in the back there. I don't not lose problem. It was somebody else did that. Looks like they had a construction yard maybe back there kind of stuff. Small park back there. I can see you looking, you see it all. I think that's why that line looks so straight. Why not? You get that straight line there because somebody's worked on the topography there over the years. Any case. Okay. Thank you. And I'd be glad to give you these negligio plans. I've been scared to be tomorrow. Ed, did you want to say something not to do with zoning at all, but just about design? Ed, do you want Ed had motion? One question. Where is this in relation to the Yellow Woods property? Is this right next door? Is that the uh Yeah, the

the one on the corner. No, this is in the middle of the block next to uh the property. It's a group home or something. It's on the other side of me. It's on the other side of the street. Okay. There's two of them, right? And then Daniel Construction is there is a house there and a big barn and it's right off the corner. Needs a lot of lot of lot of clean up. This is off the corner of Hillsdale Avenue. Correct. Well, come off Hillsdale. Make a left. Head towards Washington Township. It's on your right. Correct.

So, it's really uh give you something, you know, to clean up. I don't know whether the neighbors are looking in. There's also I know I just found out it's a bamboo variance. It has a it's all shrubbed in with bamboo, which is nice for the privacy, but it's it's growing. I mean, they're they're like 30 feet high. Yeah. I mean, according to our ordinance, it's prohibited unless it's contained within a above ground container. So, that's all going to have to be dealt with. I don't know the origin of it or like it's Yeah, it's been there. Um Well, it's I know, but I'm saying it's it's uh it's not in compliance with our ordinance, so it's I think it's the owner responsibility, right, Chris? Or to Yeah. to And that can be costly, too, to remove bamb to remove the bamboo.

Yeah. It's Well, it's on our property. It's on the neighbor. It's all around. It's all around. That's the problem. It's all around. So, you you wouldn't be responsible for just removing your own. You'd have to be responsible for moving their theirs, too. Yeah. It loves water, too. And this is a perfect place. Yeah. I don't know. I have to check the ordinance. I don't know. I mean, I have it here, but I don't I don't see whether it says you have to remove it from your neighbors. I can't imagine either. Yeah. Because Yeah. It's just going to keep growing back on you. Yeah. It's It's very tough to uh There's other species of it that you I don't care what you put down, it grows right through the you know, through the Right. That's Yeah. So, very hard to stop. Go ahead. Dig it out.

Um If I were you, I'd also be concerned about the traffic in that area because that road narrows over there. Yes. And there's been a lot of issues with traffic in that area. There's no pulloff lane or something. It would have to be designed in the in the design. So, just getting in and out of that development talking about could be extremely difficult,

right? It's u it be a typical normal, you know, street as far as far as that. And if you're able to have a pulloff, that's only one one issue. But the, you know, the wetland issue, like you said, uh, until that goes through to find out what the buffer is, the buffer 50 is the buffer 100, that would affect.

Yes. What we have, you know, over there. So uh um you know as far as that I I've been before the the wetlands committee many many a time and it takes about a year about time you get it you know really get all the answers and everything that you need. The only thing that I'm finding from doing one in Northville uh the town it's a street that well he would the owner who has the property now would be able to sign the application. I'm doing one where there's a paper street. The town has to sign the application in order for me to get get the okay to use the paper street in order to get to my property that has bad hands. So it gets complicated. Yes. But anyway, we understand. Yep. So

Mr. Grief, any uh thing you want to offer? No, I was I was kind of thinking the same thing as Ed because I I actually live on Cherry which is not too far from there and that is somewhat of a narrow street and I know they just did some work at the the intersection of Washington and Pasak to try to address some of the traffic but that road gets very backed up you know if you're Yeah. the line of sight you're saying too and then just to get out onto Pasak and when there's not traffic people tend to drive up quickly uh down that street and that may be an issue for the county planning board too. Yeah. county more so than us the county plan. He would need referrals too because it's a site plan. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. The traffic police, they would also give their comment on the design. Correct.

Council member Ki Stephen Chris, what was the outcome of that 99 application? It was withdrawn. Withdrawn. It's 1.2 two acres which again uh could you get a small you know cold sack with two houses depending on again the buffer zone and so we have to do more homework to decide the you know otherwise it's you know it is one it's the biggest piece in the area and it would be nice to clean you know to clean it all up too I'm sure the other neighbors would like that too um is pass road a county road

so you have you have to get County permits for access county approval. Yeah. Um [clears throat] I know sidewalks limited along passak road but if you're going to develop this site maybe think about doing sidewalk along it. Um sometimes they they take the money in lie of you know if it's not continuous you know it's not it's not a big deal to put you know uh it's only it's 180 on that front if I remember right to put sidewalk in seat perfection sometime to put the put it in get it done but that's that'll be in the review I guess when if we ever get the group home the group home already has a sidewalk in I think down the block we've been trying to we've been trying to work our way down the street with sidewalks

so even if it's only 180t It's 180. Give me the approval and I'll put I will We know that. We know that all the way down. [laughter] Got Okay. Well, thank you for your help and that's all. Well, let's see if our mayor has any comments. I I really It's going to be a devarian. So, I'm not just I would just talk about safety for making sure that whatever gets constructed there is going to be able to have require police that have proper access. the traffic uh that we talked about and preparing zones uh are going to be what they are. So um yeah, you know that those are the three things that come into my mind.

General, if you work within our current ordinances, that's our recommendation as much as possible too. Yeah. I mean the the one that uh Lou said he's leaning towards it seems like you're looking for a universal 10- foot setback on everything. Um, I would highly look into that, but yeah, the um but I mean like Chris said, if if that water is back there, you know, waste your money. They did all drainage in there, so it's all behind the bamboo. We don't even we don't even see it. You don't have to see it. It's on a piece of paper where Yeah. that water edge is.

Yeah. No, no, no. You'd have to get the the delineation to see if it's even possible. So, and that's what I have to decide whether I'm going to invest into that with the owner, right? So, um, you know, as far as that goes, but we appreciate your vision and your We're trying. We're trying. I'm going to be doing another little house on Legion. Okay. It's going to be coming in to you guys soon. Okay. Well, great. We look forward to that. It's nice to meet you. Thanks for coming by. Okay. Sketch sketch on that. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you very much. Now we're going to move on to our next matter which is the continued hearing on 394. Oh yeah, we need Yeah, we

So maybe unless we Yeah, I think it's probably smart. I think they're going to flip the fence so that you guys

actually we're missing a a member that we need for the for the variance. So if you guys are okay waiting a little bit more, we can put a short hearing before you and that would ensure that our last members arrived. So, so thank you so much for your understanding. It's to we would recommend that. So, we're gonna you're going to actually we're going to take you earlier. Um, so we're going to move on to PZ 1325, block 21101, lot 28 314 St. Mary Street. I'm going to just ask for you to raise my hand and if you could do a testimony.

Yes. And if you can state your name and spell your last name and give your address. Okay. Lay puhol. Last name P U J O L S. Address 314 St. Mar Street, Hillsdale, New Jersey. Welcome, Mr. Hall. We're happy to have you here tonight. Thank you. And do you have any You're just here on your own. You don't have any lawyers or professionals? Great. Just me. Okay, great. Well, we're happy to have you. So, what we'll do is we'll ask you why you're here, what you're looking for, and then the board will ask you some questions um to help us understand more um what your needs are. So, tell us what you're looking for tonight.

Okay. Uh good evening, members of the board. I'm looking for a variance for my property. We're looking to have a six inch fans. Sorry. Okay. uh installed for my property uh for safety and privacy. So we are uh right behind us is a a park and we see a lot of traffic. Uh same thing with cars especially late night. We have childs

and basically um we're looking for more privacy and safety. That's what we're looking for tonight. Okay. So, you said you're by you you're right by the park. So, that's uh what's that? Sapienza. Sapienza Gardens. Yes. Okay. Um do you have a fence now? There is there anything there now? It was uh before we purchased the house, it has um 4T but it's like what is open what the house has right now? I added in the pictures.

Okay. Yes, you gave us pictures. Okay. And you're on um a corner, correct? Your house on the corner. Yes. Okay. Chris, why don't we start with your review and comments? [clears throat]

Sure. So we're looking at two variance applications here actually. One is for the height of the fence and one is for the openness of the fence. So for the height of the fence they're proposing as she says a six foot height fence within the front yard setback of St. Nicholas Avenue. And as you point out it's got two front yards which is a corner lot.

Okay. The ordinance restricts them to four foot high when located distance closer to the street line than the required front yard which is 15 ft. So 4 foot's permitted where the proposing six foot two foot difference. Number two on the openness the uh where the six foot fence is proposed uh the ordinance says it shall be no more than 50% less than 50% open. So I presume your fence is completely opaque completely open. So that's a that would be the second variance. Okay.

A lot of these cases in my experience very often the border permit like a five foot fence with a lattice top on it. The top foot lattice because one of the concerns are with the police department if there's an emergency in your backyard. They run up. They can't see the fence. So by having it five foot plus one foot top they can actually peek over. you call somebody, somebody's gone in the backyard, an intruder, whatever may be the case. That's why the police don't particularly like closed six fences. So, it's a little bit experience for you. And you mentioned everything else is conforming with the shed and the dad thing. Yes.

Okay. So, the board's going to ask you some more questions. We just want to get a sense of like why you need this and what have you tried and you know how those kind those types of questions. So, mayor Shinfield. No, I'm I'm I'm okay. Okay, Mr. H. Um, do you know what the what proposed fence you want? You know what it will look like? Uh, Y BNO. Yes. Mhm.

Um, the neighbor across the street has a fence in their front yard and looks like it looks like a six foot fence and it has the lattice structure that our engineer was speaking of. Would you be would that be an idea you would consider of a four or five foot fence and then a lattice on the top along the the along the yard? We were looking for the six feet. Um we seen a few houses around and basically um for for my my child I have like child with special needs and we want to make sure that everything is especially safe for Oh, I understand. Understand.

I think you're just saying you want it to match in style. It would have that height, but like to match the style of your neighbors. Yes. That it would it achieves, I think, the height that you may be looking for while still also achieving the the requirements of the zoning. Okay. So, I think that was just an idea could be considered. Okay. Okay. Okay. And we're just going to announce the Mr. Freeman has joined the hearing. We're just hearing about the fence hearing. So, this is 314 St. Mary's Street.

I'm just Yeah, you won't vote on this one yet, but um just so you know where we are. Um so, I am reading your letter which you uh enclosed which was helpful. So you it says that you have um sometimes strangers in your yard. Is that is that a regular occurrence? It happens especially nighttime weekends of cars they go in the back and they stay there for a long time. We don't know exactly what they they because you have a chain link fence right now. So do they go over that? They go across. They go across like between the fences. Yes.

Okay. Um, all right. So, that's that's your hardship that you have no privacy and people on your property. I don't have any other questions now, Steve. Uh, I'm just looking at the street view now. So, you got a split rail fence. It's just the two boards in a post basically. So, it's more of a suggested boundary, shall we say. If I'm talking too fast, I apologize. No, I'm gonna keep talking fast. Okay. Um, I I I mean,

I'm going to reiterate. Um, another thing is with the 50% open, you understand what the board is saying with that where it's one of those black metal fences where you can still have the height and you can plant shrubs, but that's kind of the the aesthetics that the burrow is trying to look for. And I understand you are right next to the entrance of the gardens, correct? Yes. Yes, we have um like is for some reason is even though it's a dead end especially um the high school all that. So we have so um high traffic if I'm not mistake the back the rear yard fence could be six foot solid if I'm not mistaken right Chris Chris sorry

the rear the rear length fence that's that's considered a rear yard it's not like you know so they can have a solid six foot fence home because that's actually what is a budding to the the woods um I understand the front yard because it's a corner lot um just we go through this a lot I I would really highly suggest a the height we could live with, but I would see if you would be open to having a 50% open and then you could plant whatever you want on the inside of it for privacy to be honest. Yeah, that's planned. We'll have to swear before you can speak. We just have to we have to you have to come forward. We have to identify you.

I'm sorry. My name is Angelo Taras. I live on 314 St. Marius Street, Telston, New Jersey. Yeah, we can actually uh do one what the guy suggested like six feet like uh no five feet and just the the order be like open. So you're still looking for a six foot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we can like the ordinance is four foot. So you're still looking for something. I think four feet is too too short, you know, especially for my daughter. She's a little bit scared for for like animals and you know strange. We have the problem like kids, you know, for the high school like parking just at the end.

It's literally every night, you know, we try to just complaining just in the police department also. We call a couple times because the kids like to race in the street also. And the the other problem is a lot of people were like walking the dog by food, you know, all the time. You just go every day like you know sometime the same cars the same people you see bro you know just maybe it's a strange people don't live around me and when we have like a just whatever like garden you know just on the weekend we don't have any privacy just just because we have to be open to that side uh I see in the latest the internet suggest you know just put like a um plans to to get privacy but just in the end it's like you say with the bamboo and the other the other plants you know it's it's going to be costly for us because we have to turn down a lot of trees to to put like uh cedar or just bamboo just in the corner with that to have the privacy.

Well, that that leads my next question actually. How many trees are you going to cut down to bring this fence back up? I'm looking at the photo now and I'm looking at where the fence is and where you drew it and there are a good number of trees, maples mostly. I'm seeing you're saying no trees are going to be cut down putting this fence up along the St. Nicholas have no it's just in the in the in the property line is not any trees that part yeah that existing fence is is three and a half ft into the that's what and I'm looking at the yeah so it's got to be set back up and don't get me wrong the the street view seven years ago thanks Google but um

yeah bro this looks the same literally you know we don't we don't go anyway yet and we don't uh change the the fences behind the the street over there in San Nicholas Just just my only question was to see if you would consider. Yeah. Thank you. If you not, you know, any solution for us, you know, we like So, we can only vote for one thing. So, you know, we want you to get something. So, if the board is saying five, you know, five is better than four. So, I think that's what Steve's trying to, you know, figure No, I can understand having a child and and you know uh having high school or whatever you know whatever age group that's going down there. I get it. Yeah, I'm sure

we live we live with already for three years already. Uh we have like a you know we talked with the everybody around the area and they have the same complaint especially the the the person live across the street for us and San Nicholas you know uh we we spoke with them you know before we we planning to do a defense and they have the same complaint that people like strain walking in the dogs you know teenagers parking over there leave the car go inside the wood you know just literally like middle to the night like sometime late 12 1 2 in the Maybe they forgot their homework. I don't know.

I don't I don't I don't even [laughter] know how to do it over there, you know, but it is it's really concerning for us, you know, we have to live with that and we try to like work around with solution with that. That's understandable. Ed, any comments? Yeah. Um, my concern is I believe Chris, they need a 25 foot line of sight at the corners. I would I don't think that's a problem here at with this. It's the fence is out no closer than the front the front of the house. So that should be an issue. Okay. My concern is the house because making turns won't be able to see all the six. Yeah. But it's not it's not going to be all the way to the corner. It's going to be

behind the house just the back. It says that the back is I don't know. It's in the picture over there. the planning for the fence. I think it's not that the service I think the next figure. Yeah, this yes from the step back of the house all the way around the back. I mean, you could you could just put that that first portion of the fence to the at the back face of the house and then go down that street line. Do you see what he's show? Do you see where Chris is talking? I think this is right back here and have six feet just around here. Five plus one cuz they're talking. Yeah, I can do that. If you need if you need that, I can do that also. Okay. I just need you still get the privacy.

The only we just need you to speak into this microphone just because we're being recorded. Thank you so the only issue I have just right there with the suggestion this guy the the gentleman have.

I have a couple window for the basement. It's really small. We try to keep it open to have like a sunlight and it's literally visible from the street over there, you know. That's the reason why we try to push to all the way to this corner to the house. Try to have uh the visibility just go through the basement a little bit. But if you if we have to have like a you know middle in the uh just in the middle to to have that proof, you know, we can move back you know. But that's we'll see how the board feels if that's You also you also realize Yeah. So five guys microphone and stuff.

Yeah. We have we can we need one person at a time. So we you also realize that the fence has to be 50% at least 50% open. Yeah. Stephen was asking tell Yeah. reminding them can you can you Well, he's thinking of variance for correct. So two variances height and density of fence I guess. Can I just get some clarity on what the board's looking for? Is it five feet solid with the lattice at the top? So that one foot would be I think we're still here. I think after we hear from everyone I just wanted that is option one. Yeah, that was one option. 50% open completely. Mhm. Okay. But I don't think we we have a decision. No, I know there's no decision yet. I'm just trying to get my notes.

I think that's Ed. Yes. Okay. Councilman. Yeah. So, I I don't I I don't believe I have any questions. I mean, I I understand that the security you're looking for. I understand you're trying to maximize the yard. I you know, I I understand um that there's some disturbances with people because it is a very public area back there entrance into into a park. Um I think the for for me personally in this capacity it's striking the balance between keeping that the look right that that that this is that the the ordinances and the laws are are set up to protect

um and then once you go to six feet solid it creates a very commercial look for that area. Um so it's finding a compromise from my perspective right like for example um I understand height and open that can be supplemented with some sort of greenery or shrubs or arbor you know some to the effect of arborites um so that's my only concern my only concern is is is is the location and the aesthetic of it and going to a commercial look um and and I'm interested to hear what the compromise might be on that but uh that's Yeah, they show me a picture like the one they suggest, you know, I can I can, you know, be be

you're open to that possibility like five feet and one in the light just in the top but just different design, you know, have leave the the top fee open, you know. Yeah. Well, we're almost at the point of deciding that I'm recommending that. So, and what's the is the objection of a 4 foot open supplemented with greenery? Is it just a cost factor? The problem is is with her. She she don't like, you know, have like a like pack like but tumors because she's pretty scared with the with animals and she's thinking, you know, her mom is uh is scared with snake and we have a couple one just in the backyard and we don't want to have, you know, nothing can hide this type of animal, you know, just in the backyard.

Yeah. And I and I took a look at the air. I went down and the fence that you have is pretty much what most of the neighbors have going down the block. Correct. No one has a solid fence currently. They [clears throat] have a similar fence like you currently have that open wood almost looks like a ranch type style fence. No, I Yeah, they don't. So, do you know if they've had any issues with animals or any type of security issues? They had they have similar complaints.

Similar. Yes. So, but we are so on that side nobody has a fence. No, not none of the house only like in front. And they said about the animals, but they don't they they okay with that. But basically, I do um I let him know before we purchase the house about the animals. And yes, I seen the snakes, all that and all their animals. I mean, well, snakes can get under fences. Snakes can get under fences. But the issue is not that with the with the trees

with the trees you know when we plant cedars you know that's the option we have to plant like a cedars you know it's it's getting like bigger and pack you know hermon and her you know you don't like it to get close to to when you have like a pocket like you know greener to more you know but we can make recommendations for for planting that shouldn't be a problem I think another thing in like the

also they don't add like extra cold because we have to move the fence, you know, the old fence we have is outside our property line. We we try to put the fence in our property line and also, you know, we have to it's the same price, four feet, 5 ft, six feet, the service is the same price. If you have to put four feet and added the the trees, it's going to be double the price in the project

literally. You know, we try to like have only just, you know, the friend cost, you know, we don't wouldn't want to like just take up three also because we like the shake, you know, just in the backyard. Uh for that reason, we we looking for, you know, to maybe have like a five with the one ft maybe open or six feet as possible. that you know that's the that's the option we open to to to to meet in the middle you know the town well the or so you're anything that we give you is meeting in the middle this is a law like this is the town law and I know I know

and you have a hardship and we're hearing that so we're hearing that there there's a reason but um you know it's up to the board to decide what's appropriate okay yeah um Mr. brief. You didn't get to you didn't get to comment. Um, just to be clear, and Chris, you can help me. On St. Mary Street, you're moving up the fence just behind the front of the house on both sides and putting in gates. Fence back, but there's no there's no issue as to the setback on St. Mary Street. It's behind the front line of the house. Right. So, we're just talking about this one stretch of fence that runs along St. Nicholas. Correct. Yes.

That's his front yard. And are you going to do you're going to do the back and the side as well? Yes. And the whole thing's going to be six foot vinyl. Yes. And your intention was to do everything same fence, same height. Correct. But you you understand that on the St. Nicholas side that's not compliant and we're you know discussing that's why we're here. All right. Um I I I have similar concerns to Mr. Rearen because the requirement is 4 feet on St. Nicholas and 50% open. And I know what we're, you know, what you're talking about in terms of the six foot fence with the one foot opening. It's still, you know, outside what's required. So just something to keep in mind. Yeah.

I think we're asking, you know, we're hoping that you will come down a little bit and understand that even a five feet is a I mean people, you know, when people go to the gardens, you don't want to have like a a vinyl corridor as you're going into nature. That's I mean even if there was plantings in front of the fence to at least buffer the starkness of a vinyl fence something but it's a beautiful you know tree canopy you know mature area back there and I just feel like there's going to be a very u you know stark not stark hit but [laughter] something yeah sure

you suggest to put like a like a treat like a you know sitter in the front of the fence to to preserve the beauty to to touch it. I can do that also. If I had like the sis friend, I can put the cedar, you know, in the front also, you know, try to, you know, walk around the the we have a member who's not here tonight who is on our environmental commission and he can he can help he can give suggestions for good prices on how to help with that. That's some of what he does. So, I'm going to open to the public to see if there's anyone here that has any questions about this hearing at this time. It's okay. Okay. Seeing none, I'll close the meeting to the public. So, um, chairwoman, can I can I ask a question?

Absolutely.

We originally adopted that ordinance with a 50% visibility um for safety and because of crime potentially so that the police could could see into that, right? Um, it obviously becomes a hardship for somebody in a corner lot situation to begin with because they have two street facing properties and I don't know if we ever really contemplated what that was. We certainly didn't contemplate it with the back and I would have no problem with saying, you know, if it's not going to be seen and the police aren't going to be impacted and somebody's not going to be and a child isn't going to be running out into the backyard that the backyard portion of it to me wouldn't really be an issue. I can see saying we've got some issues on the side, but the I I think we have to sort of keep in mind the spirit of why we did what we did with the 50%.

No. Yes. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that's I think the 50% open was really for the front of the house presentation. Here it's the sort of the backyard of just saying this. Oh, no. But it's also the sideyard down and that's why they have a hardship. That's what I'm saying. I say considering it. Yeah. I'm just Yeah. What? So, we're going to just talk about ideas that we think are possible. Let's see how the board feels. We don't have to make a motion at this time. you can just uh

I maintain my suggestion of achieving the required height of six feet but going with what at least in street view which is seven years old a 5ft fence with a ladder structure at the top um so you six feet and you have a lattice at the top okay with that gives your privacy and are you suggesting solid yeah with yes so it's 5t solid and the le the 5t of yes Okay. We can we can for St. Nicholas only or for St. Nicholas and St. Mary. We don't going to have any fence in some. Okay. It's going to be just that one. You have you have it where the gates are. You have it connecting to your house.

We can we can do that unfortunately. Yeah. No, I'm just saying but you do have a fence going on the or the same area technically. Sorry. No, no, don't worry. It's it's it's his job. It's okay. But but we're saying the other side and the rear you could do that solid six feet. You don't have to do that. Okay. I think to answer the mayor's question, I'm suggesting continuity along the front portion. So along correct St. Mary's down St. Nicholas can be five foot with one foot and then in the back where you're allowed to have a full six foot. You can do that if you want or if you want to have Okay. Just remember the same kids that are not hiding on the outside of your fence can now hide on the inside of your fence when the cops come.

I know. Is there any color preference with the board here? you know, brown, green, white. I think it apply for white. I think if he's going to cover it with trees to begin with, does that really make it He's going to have to power wash it every other year. I might I might make a recommendation though. It's something for you to consider. When I I put in a fence when I moved here back in 2018,

and uh and um we decided to go with off-white instead of white. Okay. Especially because in Hillsdale we have a lot of trees. You get a lot of pollen on the fence. And if you've ever seen some of these stark white fences, they have very [laughter] unwise. It's a little bit easier to maintain. That's up to you. We're not that's not part of what we're voting on. But Chris asked if we had any thoughts on No, I'm agree. I I understand and I appreciate it. I just want them to know that, you know, that's a suggestion. All right. Does anyone

So, we're going to we're going to make a motion now for what we're voting on. And if you have questions about what that means, you'll let us know. I make a motion. I actually do have a question. Absolutely. Which I know could be in the motion, but there was talk about trees or not trees. We'll just say no trees are to be removed because they they talk about trees in front of whatever fence is done along the sanct of approval that no trees are coming down or so we're running that no you can't take any trees down. If you do you have to go to the proper avenues of permitting for trees.

Yeah. You'd have to get in touch with the town and they would you say if I have to I can I have to go to preapprove here and the burrow. You have to apply to take the tree down nowadays. Okay. If I have to the same uh Steve Lozen, the same person that gave you a letter of denial. Okay. The zoning officials in town. Okay. Same person that you would if if it comes up, which we're not saying it might or might not, but you just can't cut them down because you find out the fence is in the way, which it very much can happen. So, okay. They have to approve for them, right? Yes. The right person will tell you. So that condition would be that if any trees are removed, you'd have to go to the building department and get proper. Okay. So it not that you would have to come back. You don't come to us.

Okay. [clears throat] Yes. Another thing, another problem we've had in the past is the attorney may recall at Riverbell, we've had fences that look good on paper, but then somebody out in the field just, you know, we'll put the fence here. So, I don't know who's going to lay the fence out for you because even fencing companies, they lay them out wrong also, but to avoid coming back for another variance because the fence went in the wrong place. Okay,

this happens a lot because they're just they're careless. So, um there's two ways of looking at it. One, you can require them to get a survey to lay it out, or number two, once the fence goes in, they get an ass built back to us to make sure it went in the right place. I have this server done like uh two years ago and I preserve the the three the four points just on you know I just put out a rock you know just in the pin they they planting and you know it's you know I have everything mar just correctly thank you that's a good point does anyone have a motion or you ready

five 5 foot solid one foot lattice overall six on St. Nicholas on St. Nicholas and St. Mary. Okay. Can we add trees to to in the front? I think they were feeling that's a financial hardship. Okay. I mean, that's what I heard. Okay. If we can't, we can't. Yeah. I just I don't know, but Well, it's a little difficult canopy there because they've got the trees over. just say it's going to be hard for things to grow because I just say you can plant evergreens in there but you know with the shade it gets a they're a little difficult sometimes. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the issue. You know we have like a like a close to the tree like a like seven really tall really big and we have like even the grass have like hard time growing over there. If we have put like cedar or bamboo whatever bamboo no I have to remove the street because they don't have any stone line over there. We [snorts] understand. Yeah. Okay. Any We're going to go back to making a motion. You want to sit down?

You can stay there. You're fine. We're almost done. You did well. So it'll be five feet with a lattice solids down in St. Nicholas and the front. Yeah. Which is which is parallel to the house. Yeah. And they've agreed to make it off white. You know that's not we can't we don't it's just Seth's aesthetic recommendation. Yes. You may be better off with the pollen that comes down. doing something, [laughter]

right? And they you've agreed you could take it from the back of the house, right? We move the fence to the back corner of the house and go out to St. Nicholas versus the front court of the house. No, we never they discussed that over there. We have couple windows in the basement over there. He gave testimony why he wants to keep it to the front because of the basement windows where people will still live in and we measure we have like a 75 ft from the to to there to the to the corner you know the corner just in San Nicholas and and from Mar around that what's your gripe against that Chris what's that about the traffic no right there from there the house on this side only this side okay this side here

yeah yeah from this side this corner to to here to the curb. We have L around like 75 ft just from this point to the house to here. Yeah. We're just we're just trying to reduce the the effect on the front looking house from the front coming off the back corner like that. Yeah. The problem we have over there we have two windows. You have two two Yeah. Yeah. And and we try to keep it open with no, you know, shape because we don't have any sunlight like closing. Well, that would be so if you move the fence back, you'd be doing that by not having a shadow on the six foot. You do have your electric meter also on that side. So, I mean smart meter, but they're going to smart meter.

Okay, back to a motion. Yeah. Do you want to read off just what we so people know like what the motion is? Just to be clear, the fence is returning to the house again. It's at the rear as shown on this plan. Correct. Yes, it it's creates a full enclosure. So the only just for clarity for myself, the only change from what they submitted would be that the front on St. Mary Street will be 5T 50% open and on St. Nicholas Street. That's the 5T with the 50% open lice.

No. Oh, I was just l Yeah, I wouldn't put the 50% on top and on St. Nicholas the same thing with 5T with the lattice, but the location of the fence is going to stay the same or as proposed onto the property. Okay. So, their drawing shows it within the property constraints. Yeah. But not not the existing. No. Okay. We're ignoring that. It's okay. And the only condition I have is that if any trees are removed, you'll have to go get appropriate permits. Okay. Okay. Done. Okay. We still need a motion. Make a motion for that that proposal

as read which is the five, right? I'll second. Okay. You have the Yep. Okay. Vice Chair Reed. Yes. Good luck with the snakes. [laughter] Mr. Yes. By the way, I have four granddaughters, so I understand. Mr. Reed. Uh, yes. Mr. Hip. Yes. Council Lei. Yes. Mayor Shanku.

Yes. No bamboo under any circumstances. [laughter] cheer [clears throat] with my kids. Yes. Um, congratulations. Thanks for working with us. You seem like very lovely people. So, thank you, Miss Jenner. You know, [laughter] you're welcome. She's the best. I know. She is the best. She is the best. We all agree with that. And your daughter seems like she's the best, too. Thank you. Just some housekeeping, just so you know, at the next meeting, they'll adopt a document, which is a resolution that memorializes their vote tonight, and then you can go get permits on your house. So that will do that the next year. You don't have to come to the meeting. All right. Don't put the fence up until the res. Yeah. Don't start yet.

Um Yes. Mr. Kleti, if you'd like to leave yet. Oh, you're good. Good. Have a good evening. We're done. We'll just note that the mayor and our council leaison is going to are going to recuse themselves for our next and last hearing which is which is PZ 1125 block 2039 Sierra Court Ashley Norris. Oh, thank you for your patience. We're very appreciative. We'll give that we'll give you signing this for me. Good evening.

You listen to the um December 11th, 2025. Welcome back. Thank you for your patience. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Good night. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Congratulations. Power moves. I can tell you [laughter] that. Okay. So, we know this is a continuing hearing and we just want to ensure that members who were not present at the last hearing did watch the video. our attorney wall.

Yes, that would be Deion Freriedman and Stark and they both certified. So, you're both eligible to vote tonight. Thank you. Yes. Okay. Hi. Hi. How are you? Good. How are you? Good. Um I know this was supposed to be a vote only. Well, planning, you know, I brought my professionals. Okay. Both of them are here tonight. I work with the secretary um quite often here and we've communicated. So I'm somewhat at your disposal. We ended waiting for the members and we carried the vote. Right. So if you want you've been very accommodating. I just want to add too that our planner wasn't present but also reviewed reviewed the planning testimony. Correct Tom? I I watched the video. Correct. Right. Right. So

Okay. If there's if you want more presentation, more argument, if you I I'm at your mercy right now. Well, maybe we should bring your planner back up because if I'm gonna maybe ask Tom to comment because that's where we left right after planning testimony. Yeah, Michael, please.

In case you're commenting, [snorts] I think I was previously sorry. It's just a reminder you're still under and your license still is still. Yes. Okay. Let's [laughter] um does anyone on the board feel like they need to rehear like just sum up some of the their planning testimony or we're all good and we can turn over to Tom for his comments on it? You want to do you have any comments? I guess again I watched the video we we submitted a a review memo dated uh December 1st 2025 which I believe you guys are aware of and reference. So I I guess I'll just begin by recapping the variance relief that's being requested. Thank you.

The applicant mentioned that they did eliminate one of the variances which was the impervious coverage variance by virtue of uh eliminating a portion of the paved driveway. I believe the triangular section. So we're down to three variances. Um the first as far as the hierarchy of variance is the D4 F variance. um where they're asking for 23.14% where a maximum of 22% is permitted. So that's a deviation of 1.14% translates to about 284 square ft based on the testimony. Then the two other variances uh relate to non-conforming set yard uh yard setbacks which are C variances. The first being the combined sideyard setback of 50.9 ft where 58.4T 4 feet is required. Uh from a percentage standpoint, that's 34.9% versus 40% that's required. And then finally, the corner of the garage has a non-conforming rear yard setback of 47.25 ft where a minimum of 50 ft is required. Um so as was testified to um I don't I don't disagree at all with the statutory criteria that was referenced as far as um we'll start again begin with the D4 in terms of the hierarchy of variances. The the test is framed in both the positive and negative criteria. The positive criteria being a determination as to whether or not the site can accommodate the problems associated with the increase in F. And again, in this case, we have a one-story garage. Um, 284 square feet. I believe it was 13 by 23 if I'm not mistaken. So, there's always the question of what does it mean to be able to accommodate, you know, something in this case? Uh, you know, what are the problems, possible problems? So, we usually look at the extent and number of variances that are being triggered by the F that are being caused by the F. Um we look at impacts to both surrounding properties as well

as you know the character of the neighborhood the municipality in general. Um we ask to that end we ask questions like you know to what extent is the proposed development consistent with the surrounding neighborhood. Um and if there are impacts we look for ways to try to mitigate those impacts and and I know the neighbor uh impacted most by this uh I believe testified. And then so that's just the positive criteria. Then the negative criteria is an examination of or rather a determination of that there's no substantial detriment to the public good and no substantial impairment to the master plan and zoning ordinance. So I I know you guys touched on the positive criteria. I I believe Mr. Hubchman in his planning testimony indicated that there's uh from his perspective no impacts to the public good. Um you know obviously they're here asking for a variance so there is a deviation. I think um the F standard was created uh or recommended in the 2003 master plan and implemented thereafter. Um again it pertains to a garage in this case. Uh regarding the setback variances which are both C variances um there's two prongs to that test. One is the hardship you know what are the hardships um that are preventing them from conforming. They mentioned that, you know, there's an aesthetic benefit to offsetting the garage, that it creates additional screening, um, but that there may be an opportunity to actually have it be conforming. So, there's, you know, a bit of a choice there from the board's perspective. Um, you know, as far as public benefits, I, you know, I think the hardship case might be a bit stronger. I'm not sure what the public benefits might be other than maybe the positioning that creates additional screening. And, uh, the negative criteria is the same as I, as I just referenced. So, um I don't know if I have any additional questions per se. You kind of covered the the turf. Um I I will note that uh you know our review memo does talk about some provisions of the master plan which are general themes which I kind of touched on about achieving a balance between the

developed community and new development. Um the one floor area provision that was uh recommended in 2003 and then just um you know maintaining density, scale, character of the neighborhood. So I if you know if the board wants to hear anything to that end you know they can ask the planner to testify to that. Okay thank you Tom. That was very helpful. Also the property is also odd shaped in in his own district. It's got a very odd configuration as well which I think exacerbates the the actual barriers to requested.

As far I'll just offer one final thing. if if the board perceived there to be impacts, you know, visual or otherwise, whether or not some screening would be necessary. Obviously, there's a cost, but if there's no issue, then there's no issue, but that that could be one mitigating condition because I think storm water was already addressed. Um, you know, you kind of touched on a lot of the the typical things that one touches on and they've also agreed to connecting the existing garage leaders to the seage as well. Correct. So that's that also mitigates the the softness. Okay. Any questions for Tom?

I had a question. Um just [cough and clears throat] bring it up. I thought one of the positive impacts was that they were going to be increasing the retention of water on site with the garage. Am I hearing? Would I hear that correctly during the video? Yes.

Okay. At this time, I'll open the meeting to the public if there's anyone that has questions about what you just heard of planning comment. Seeing none, I'll close the meeting to to the public. Okay. Is there anyone here from the public that wants to comment on on this application that didn't comment previously? Okay. Thank you. So, I'll close the meeting to the public.

[cough]

board. Are there any further questions anyone has from any of the any of the testimony? Is there would you like to are there any recommendations anyone feels like they still want to make? I mean, I'm just thinking about Tom's comment about like trying to you've made, you know, you've definitely made changes just in that sense of trying to conform as much as possible. That's I guess what I've been looking for with this application. So,

okay. Thoughts? Okay. So, is anyone ready to make a motion? What is the motion for? We approve this. Approve or deny. Okay. It is a D variant. So, they need five out of seven votes. So, that's just six. Wait, we only six. We're six. Six. You need five votes. So, if there's six members, you need five out of six. I'll make a motion to approve it. Um, and there's no conditions, right?

There's no conditions. Just we're just checking if there's any conditions since it was a previous meeting that we may have mentioned. I don't think there were any but it'll be condition on you complying with the board engineers before any outstanding conditions obviously standard. [snorts] I'll second start. All right. So, we have a motion to approve and a second. And a second. Vice Chair Rean,

I'm going to say uh my answer would be no. Um being the F is based off of a area of the lot and your lot is uh over by 2,380 square ft of the required. Therefore making uh anything I see here um still a no. So no Mr. Alter. I'm gonna say yes. Uh I think everything was explained fully at the last meeting. I think the difference in the F is minor. So I'm going to say yes. Mr. Freriedman. Uh [clears throat] yes.

Mr. Greed. I I think it's a close call in my mind, but I'm I'm gonna say yes, Mr. H. And I'll say yes. Uh to me, the deciding factor was the neighbors uh approval or, you know, sign off on it because who's going to be most impacted by this? And hearing their testimony was helpful in swaying me. Otherwise, I think I would have gone the other way. and chairman case.

Yeah, this is an extremely tough one for me as well. You could say there's a hardship, but also there could have been more that you could have done to get the F down. I will agree that the neighbors didn't seem to have issue with it and you are improving storm water. So, I'm just that much going to vote yes. Thank you. Motions pass. So, motion passes. Yes. Thank you, board. Thank you, professionals. Thank you for being here. Congratulations. Thank you for all your time. Appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you. Okay. Okay. So, I do not have any um Are you good for me?

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, board. That was a lot on our agenda tonight. I don't have any discussion items other than we Oh, I have [laughter] No, I know. At this time, I'll open the meeting to the public. Is there anyone from the public that would like to address the board? Any issues that we didn't hear tonight? Seeing none, I'll close the meeting to the public. Um, the only item I'll bring up for discussion is we will be here February 12th for just a few quick well should be quick orders of business. If Mark is here, we're going to go into close to discuss litigation which we need to catch up on. We need to there our annual report has been in right Chris and I think you send it to the board Tanya I didn't

okay so we will send out the annual report um and we'll discuss that and then we just have a fair share housing agreement to vote on so that should be a quick night so that's all I have nothing to carry so unless there's anything else I will announce that our next public hearing will be Thursday February 12th 2026 7:30 p.m. here in Bur Hall council chambers. Do I have a motion to adjurnn? Motion. Second. Second. Second. Anyone? Mr. Rear second. [laughter] Good night. Thank you everyone. Good night.