City Council - workshop

Thanks for being here. I'm calling the work session to order. Could we do a roll call, please? Council Member DeLewis?

Here. Council Member Dowell is absent. Council Member Marks? Present. Council Member Mosley? Present. Council Member Wilden? Here. Vice Mayor Coates is absent. And Mayor Shaw? Here. And we have a quorum.

Okay, so, um, 1st on our item list is the presentation and discussion of facility needs assessments for parks and recreation and library facilities and direction from council as appropriate.

Yeah, good evening, Madam Mayor, Council, Jack Thiel, your Parks Recreation Library Services director here with the City of Cottonwood. So I have two items to speak with you guys with tonight. They kind of really go hand in hand, though, and so I do have the presentation broken out into one that smoothly transitions into the other, and we can stop and do it that way. Or if you'd like, I can go through the whole presentation and then tackle both items at once. Really, I'll leave that up to Council's decision. I sacrificed a little bit of prettiness of my PowerPoints today to make the text on them a little bit bigger, so there's a couple more slides. I hope that it's legible and big enough for you, but I did also print out Some of the slides there with you in front if at any point you have questions you want to stop and talk Let me know the whole point tonight is to get councils Direction so I know how to prepare our staff coming up for the next budget and the fees and things like that And so I welcome any questions and at any point in time Feel free to stop me or if it works to have all the question discussion at the end I'm here to serve whatever council would like So with that, again, why are we having this discussion? And so this discussion is really a strategic conversation, like I was saying, to help staff better understand what council's desires are and expectations for the levels of service that we provide and whether our current priorities, when I say ours, I mean my current priorities listed in those facility needs assessments that I believe you all received a copy of. And if you read every word, good for you, but I don't blame you if you didn't. um making sure that those priorities generally align with councils that we're moving our departments in the right direction that council would like and addressing any of the service and capacity needs or planning for future growth It's really broken down into two of those questions. What level of service does the city slash community expect us to have? And then what does it take to sustainably provide and maintain those levels of service? So tonight I'm not asking council to rank every project or approve any capital expenses. We're looking for a strategic direction. So a lot of this stuff we're already moving forward on and I'll get into that. But I want to make sure the direction we're going is the direction council wants us to move in. And then if there's any area that council believes should have a greater emphasis or less emphasis, really whatever this council wants. And then this discussion's also gonna help us as we move into our city-wide fee master plan study that's gonna be coming up in the next couple of months. And that really is one of the leading reasons that we're doing this now. So the facility needs assessments, like I spoke, these were really developed by staff. So I'm the one who did them and I got input from all the staff. I had to go through a couple reviews to make sure that we were planning accordingly. And really, if you look at these as capital improvement planning documents for me for the next five years, that's probably a better way to understand them. So I looked at it through my eyes as professional staff and said, hey, you know, what's happening in our facilities across the board? What condition are they in? What do we need to do to maintain these? Are there areas that we can grow in? Are there things that maybe we need to rethink? And that's kind of how we got to those facility needs assessments that have been circulated. So the four areas that really they cover are the Cottonwood Public Library, the Cottonwood Recreation Center, Parks Trails, and then Recreation Facilities. The idea is that these assessments can help provide counsel with staff's perspective, seeing things through staff's lens on water priorities and what needs to happen. It's also the starting point of our conversation today. And so hopefully you all have had an opportunity to at least see those and become familiar with them. So what are we seeing? Our facilities represent a significant community investment. It takes a lot of money to put these programs on. We use a lot of general fund tax dollars to do them, and they require investments every day to keep them up. So we have some real key facilities. The Recreation Center, which was built in 2010. We have the Aquatic Center that received, that's the outdoor pool, the Cottonwood Aquatic Center, that received major renovations, 2009, 2010. And then we had the public library that received major renovations in 2007, 2008. All of those are over 16 years old. Yes, sir.

Can you briefly talk about what were the renovations that were done on the pool and the library?

So Madam Mayor, Council Member Marks, so the recreation center is clear. That was just construction, right? The facility was built, brand new, 2010. The aquatic center was a complete redo, the outdoor pool. The shell of the lifeguard shack and the restrooms were there. Everything else was essentially redone for whatever reason, minus the sidewalk going into the building. That's the same sidewalk we've always had, but everything else was redone. So the bathrooms were redone at that point in time. The guardroom was redone at that point in time. The pool was brought back down to sand, back down to dirt, and redid that entire pool as well with new filtration. Maybe some of the plumbing, is still there but by and large it was brought back down to ground zero and redone in place so we removed it used to be a six lane um pool we added two additional lanes added the seating area up top and removed the kid pool and the hot tub that were out there and then the library when i talked about the renovation there we added on the entire youth services side of that building did that answer your question yeah got it So really, the discussion tonight, and we don't have to answer these now, I just wanted to give them to you early in the process so you could be thinking about what our request really is. So staff is seeking council direction on priorities four, Is it more important to maintain and reinvest in our existing assets? Are we trying to address capacity and service level needs by expansion? Are we planning for future facilities and expansions that people want? So as pickleball continues to grow, everybody wants more pickleball courts, right? There was a time there where everybody wanted handball courts and racquetball courts. We get requests all the time for saunas, like are we looking to add new items into our inventory or is it more important we're reinvesting in our current assets maintaining that level and maybe there's opportunities for us to expand. Those are the different areas where we really want to make sure council is having good discussion so staff knows how to prepare ourselves over the next five years. So investing in our existing assets. So what are we doing now? And this is probably what is really important through those assessments that I gave you. So this year alone, and these are already all funded projects, okay, I'm not coming to council asking for more money or saying, hey, here's a gap, here's what I need. This is information to let you know what we're doing in addition to all the capital improvement we did last year. So this year alone, we're spending $355,000 plus and operational needs. And so when I say operational needs, that means without these items getting accomplished, we're going to have service loss. So for instance, you all had an opportunity to see the amazing projector we had in the clubhouse with the big purple blotch on it, right? So we were able to get that fixed, right? So that's fixed, it's now back up and operating at the standard we expect it to be. um if you've ever gone down to riverfront park with small kids we've got this beautiful playground but the swings are exaggerated half a mile in the back you can't be one parent and bring multiple kids you want to do two different things right and so bringing those forward and containing that family right there not to mention that the scene the swings we have down there do not meet today's standard right and so we have to phase those out The volleyball net replacement if you go down and try to play volleyball down there, you'll find out real quick. You can't the net system doesn't function anymore. People go down there. They literally have ties off and clips and it's not really a suitable environment for what we're trying to do. And then you start getting into the actual replacement of equipment. So I know I've got some pool users here. And I know everybody will yell at me if the pool is one degree lower. Well, imagine if that heater goes down, right? And our heater we have put tons of repair into. It's not repairable anymore, essentially. And so we're placing that into our pool heater, right? All the pool valves. So if you've ever gone back into our pool room, you'll see that we have, I'm not even joking, 100 valves back there. Those are all 16 years old. And if you look at the equipment, you can see where all those metal valves have rusted out. When we change them, you'll see they look like Swiss cheese. There's holes in them, and so they're not operating efficiently. And so if they go down, well, we are closed until we can get that valve fixed, right? The UV system in the indoor pool, if that system goes down, We literally cannot open the indoor pool per health code. It has to be on a UV system, right? And so those are all 16 years old. They've all exceeded their estimated lifespan because we've done lots of maintenance to them, but it's time where they have to be replaced. And so when I say operational needs, I mean loss of service if these things aren't happening, okay? That's $355,000 plus that this council's allocated in our current budget this year to accomplish these. So then we looked at what those planned investments are, right? Question. Yes, ma'am.

What's the timeline on all those things? Are you going to just piecemeal it or are you going to do, how are you going to do that?

Yeah. Madam Mayor, Council Member Wilden. So we've got a great finance team who helps put together a really nice capital improvement budget that phases them out per quarters. And in that process, we try to make sure we're not overly birding one quarter or another, whether that's staff time or whether that's resource allocation. And so these are all spread out throughout fiscal year 27. So summer in first quarter, summer in second quarter, like the lights that you'll get in on this one, on the $635,000 expense you see there, that's currently third quarter. And so they're all broken out based on when they are. So the major priority ones, I was able to work with Kirsten in advance and say, hey, you know, we can either spend money to tag these along for a little bit, or we can front load our capital and get them fixed and replaced and save that maintenance. So a good example of that is our UV system at the indoor pool. probably about $12,000 to $15,000 to service that if we can even get it serviced anymore. Two of the lights just, we can't get the lights. And so you'd have to find somebody willing to do it. And that would be about $12,000 to $15,000. And then, no, we still have to replace them. Or working with Kirsten, she front loaded that money in quarter one so I can get those replaced in quarter one. And so we're not eating that $12,000 maintenance cost just to take it back out and replace that system.

Now, is that, Mario, this is probably for you, is that, are we still doing the quarterly thing, or how's that really the best? Not considering staff.

No, no, I think right now that works as we try to figure out what these priorities and that sort of thing. But they're kind of guidelines because it's, you know, many of the things that we have to do in planning for that, they're six-month projects when you look at lead time and that sort of thing. So we're trying to work through, like, what... what's the best way to go about that moving forward but yeah all in all we'll you know and and that's the recommendations that are sent out staff has sent back and said like hey can we can we move this around can we change this because the other side of it is the capacity of our purchasing department we're small staff all over there's there's only certain amount of projects that they can be putting out and following and tracking um and getting them going at that same time

Yep, and so one other really good way to give you an example there, you'll see that we have the rec emergency HVAC repairs. So if you use the recreation center starting out in July, you probably know that we had three units go down on us all at the same time. We had that lightning storm and it knocked out three of our units. Well, that HVAC repair, we had $50,000 allocated for one unit. Later down, we had to take that money to make these emergency repairs across three units. And so this is fluid. If something goes down and I need to pull the money now, it's never not been a case where we haven't been able to make it work.

So the unit replacement is... the long-term solution, is that?

Yes.

So that's at the rec center?

It's all over, really. And so to not get too far into those weeds, really what it is, the recreation center has seven units, six of them that really are normal HVAC units, and then we have the indoor pool unit. Three of those six units at the rec center all blew a capacitor. or a condenser and so we had to get those fixed because they just they purely weren't keeping up so you'll see right below that we also have the hvsa unit replacement so we know that it's just going to continue to happen so we're planning to replace one unit now and then we'll rob the good parts off that unit keep them in stock for when the next one goes down and then we'll continue to try and knock out these but that is a really good example of why we're here at council tonight if council if your direction is hey we don't want to keep piecing all these repairs out and have these times where we're down we want to just bite the bullet and budget for full hvac repairs in an upcoming year right that's a discussion item for council so we know how to bring that back to you um so that really highlights what we're trying to do here uh did that answer your question completely got it so then moving on to um The next slide, this is the plan investment. These are the things that we don't necessarily have to do, but have decided to do to grow our inventory or to make upgrades at a facility or things like that. And so you'll see that the HVAC rollover for the indoor pool, we know that that unit is going to be $300,000, $400,000. And so what we've started to do now is every year we're setting $50,000 aside in a pot. And so hopefully we can get through the five years, and at the end of five years, we'll have the money to replace that unit. And if not, that just means however much rollover we have, we have to find that much less in undesignated to be able to replace that unit. The library facility improvements, the privacy pod that we just put in, that was grant funded through Prop 202 funds. That was a facility investment we made, right? exterior painting of the library, library restroom updates, riverfront loop phase two. That's finally coming up. We got that state parks grant secured at $150,000, and so we'll be able to move forward on that as soon as they release the funds to us. The blowout wash trail improvement, the field lighting at the kids park and then the chlorination system conversion so in total that's 1.9 million dollars a large majority of that is the filled lighting at the kids park and we have submitted for the land and water conservation fund for that general they told us it's a good project we don't know if it's going to be a winning project and so if we get the funding we'll of course use that grant funding if not it's funded through our general fund right now to still move that project forward So then one of the things I know that we were asked to do is provide some charts on that. And so here's a pie chart that we did for this. This is just showing the 2027 investment. And so this is all the operational needs, the $1.4 million of operational capital improvements that we're going to be doing this year. You can see it's broken down between library, which is the orange, the parks and recreation facilities, which is blue, the green, which is the recreation center and aquatics, And then the yellow, which is your trails and outdoor recreation. And then on the next slide here. This is the 2027 facility improvement by funding source. So you can see a large portion of that is general fund. Now this picture will dramatically change if we get the LWCF grant, but I didn't want to be overzealous and put that in there. I feel like that wouldn't be representing the data fairly. So right now it's represented as general fund if we do get that LWCF grant. This picture is going to be a lot more green than it is blue and orange. So I added these just to provide some financial framework. We're investing approximately $1.4 million in all of our facilities. Nearly 89% of that relies on the general fund, which highlights the need on why we want to go out and attack these grants. Typically, what we find is there are often more grants to build new resources than there are to maintain existing resources. And so that's a challenge that we have consistently. But we do work with the contracted party through the city. We ask them all the time to go scour for grants for us. Anytime we know a project comes up, we ask them to see if they can find a grant for us. And then staff also looks at potential grant funding for that as well. So all of that to really come to this slide here. And so we all want our facilities to be clean, safe, attractive, functional, and welcoming. We know that is what we want, right? They are all heavily public-used facilities serving a broad range of residence programs and activities. And so what I try to get people to understand is these are public facilities. We aren't country clubs. We don't have the pleasure of choosing who uses our facilities. Everybody comes. And a lot of times, not everybody has great behaviors in them. And so we do our best to remove those people who are having bad behaviors as they happen, but our doors are open to everybody. And so that is a challenge because what one person may expect is vastly different from what another person may expect. And so I like to use temperature as an exact example of this and my pool users know if if you change the degree in the pool 1 degree, people notice it imagine that 6000 members in the recreation center. Some people want a 72 degrees. Some people want 76 degrees. Some people want a 68 degrees. Right? And so balancing the priorities of everybody is really a challenge. And so that's where we're looking for council's direction, not necessarily on how much do we charge swim lessons, not necessarily what do we set our HVAC at, right? High-level, general ideas of what this council's...

The pool temperature, right?

The pool temperature, yeah. No, just in general, all of them. It's not so much the ground level as it is the general idea of what is council's direction they'd like us to go. So we can bring some of those items back to you. It's got to be balanced, obviously, with what we have staffing available, what our operating capital is. And so 1 of the things I was just talking to staff the other day about, I think council received a couple of emails about it. We had 3 sinks broken in the facility. As soon as I found out about him, I got him fixed. Those sinks were $600 a piece, right? I have a maintenance operation budget of $60,000, right? And so right off the bat, $1,800 goes to faucets, not even full sink replacements, faucets, right? And so it comes back to what is our service level? We could replace those with cheaper faucets, right? And just do hand crank and get them for... 100 bucks 200 bucks probably going to cycle through them a lot more but we wanted to keep them all maintained at the same so they looked good they all functioned the same and it looks like a good cohesive facility but it all goes back to what is the level of service this council expects for staff so that way we can go back to know how to set those things whether it's 60 000 or 100 000 or whatever the maintenance budget is that's not what i'm asking tonight we can budget that But to do that, I need to know what council's expectation is. And so that leads into this next example. A really good example of this is facility cleaning. And so we outsource our cleaning contract for about $221,000 annually. And that's between the recreation center, the clubhouse, and the library. It's not including our park cleanings or things like that. Just those three facilities. It's about $221,000 annually. We know facility cleanliness remains one of our most frequent concerns. Under the contractual model, we don't have a whole lot of authority to control their staff, to give direction, to set schedules, to set priorities, or even quality control, because they clean overnight, right? We come in and everything we do at that point is a reactive measure. Hey, this wasn't done. Hey, this still didn't get completed. Hey, you dragged trash across the floor. Everything we do from that point is a reactive measure. council expects a higher level of service we can always evaluate different options there including breeding custodial services in-house and please understand that's not what I'm saying tonight I'm not asking you to give me direction to bring it in-house this is just a really good example does this meet the service requirements of what this council wants because if it does we're doing great if it doesn't Well, our hands are tied a little bit. We already do a lot of supplemental stuff, but like I said, we don't have oversight control of that cleaning company. So this is a really good example of does our service expectation meet the current level of service we're getting? And if not, what does council want to do? So this is where I plan to stop and ask for questions, if there's any discussion here, or like I said, the two items really go hand in hand, because at one side, we're talking about what is our service level? What standard do we want? The next side is, who's gonna pay for that standard, right? How do we want to do that? And so I'll put this back to council, if you'd like to have any discussion now, we can, or if you'd like me to roll through and blend it all together, we can go that approach as well.

Madam Mayor, can I jump in real quick and just add something? So, previously to my career, I've used the analogy, we had this, in one city I worked for, we had this amazing regional sports park. And I would hear regularly from the soccer folks that, hey, our fields are horrible. And I'm like, no, our fields are pretty good. And they'd say, well, look over at the Gateway Church. And I said, yeah, but the Gateway Church looks wonderful because they manicure it, they put a lot of money in, and then they practice on our fields so they don't tear their fields up. And so I said, we have enough funding to provide C-level fields. If we want to provide B-level fields, we can get you an additional cost as to what that's going to look like. That same analogy, I think, would transfer to our facilities. I understand folks, I've heard comments that our facilities look tired. We updated all of the exercise equipment, and that was great, but that came at a one-time cost. But a lot of the things to kind of take the rec center and the library up a notch are ongoing costs. There are additional maintenance costs, additional maintenance. cleaning costs and that sort of thing and and why we brought this tonight was this comes as you know on the heels of the discussion during budget and the work session about where the priorities should be placed and I think that's only a policy that council could set and so that's why you know again Jack was great and provided all of the details and every need there is out there but absent that we need some direction from the full council body as to you know what grade would you like us to put on the facilities and where does the focus on maintenance rank with the council, relative to future new projects and you know making a distinct distinction because the lighting project at the kids park is an upgrade to an existing one and and that will increase use and as jack talked about there's some of them just if we don't spend the money we're not going to be able to provide those services that one we're actually going to be able to increase the services to the community and make it more usable so it has some value there and so i'll turn that back to you folks now

so if i can comment first i sincerely apologize for being late but thank you mr teal for the needs assessment this is a really important topic i reviewed all the material in the briefing package all the needs assessment documents that you provided us and it's clear that you know we have a lot of facilities that require a lot of upkeep and you know when i looked at the needs assessment i didn't see fluff i didn't see you know just you know pie in the sky would be nice to have stuff i saw a lot of things that really are essential um so ideally i would like to see maintenance and upkeep um be a priority um over new projects um expansion projects unless it's grant funded as the city manager was saying And I'd like it to be done proactively rather than reactively or to an emergency situation. I really don't like seeing reports of multiple HVAC units that are on the verge of failing with only one compressor being operational. i i just think that's an untenable way to operate um i also would like to see the facilities maintained in like new condition rather than only addressing facilities when they are aged and tired looking um so that addresses another thing the city manager asked us to to address um so again i think maintenance and upkeep should be the funding priority i also see um some facilities needs assessments that are proposed a few years out like the overhaul of the locker room facilities which you hear we all hear a lot of complaints about I think that should be done sooner um but what's unclear to me is you know even for you know what I'm proposing here is Is there enough money to do this? Like, how much would this cost? And, you know, how much would this cost? And, you know, given the general fund and, you know, the pie chart that you showed us, like, what's the gap? Like, are we like, what is that a few thousand dollars or millions of dollars? I just have no grasp as to how much that would be.

Absolutely, and Madam Mayor and Vice Mayor Coates, I'd like to respond to a couple things you did there. So the HVAC system, I 100% hear where you're going on there, and trust me, nobody wanted that fixed faster than me. The reality is that was all caused from a storm, and so it was operational, and then we got hit by lightning, and it blew three compressors. And so one of the compressors was less than a year old. Sorry, let me back.

Four days over a year old because they denied our warranty on it.

And so it's not that we weren't. We're truly trying to be proactive. That's where that was born from. That's my conversations with Kirsten. That's our conversations with our maintenance team is how do we set money aside and be proactive to replace these so I'm not down three compressors. And so that one was just lightning strike. It just... Bad luck. If we could have turned it into insurance, I would have. I argued with the warranty guy. Over four days, you're going to lose business. And they said, for $15,000, yep. And then the other side on that. I think the questions you're asking right there about the pots and the gap and all that, I think those are very valid questions. I'd love to answer those for you now. The reason I hadn't done that yet is I wanted to make sure I got clear direction from counsel on what the priority was. Because if I go through and I don't prioritize the right items, that gap may be different. But hearing from counsel, and the conversation is clearly not done, we want to be proactive. And so some of the things that lean more towards wants than they are needs, we're going to always side with the need what do we need to do first the roof needs to get done sorry that means we're not going to redo and put in new scoreboards or whatever that project may be and so once we get that conversation and finalized i'll know how to bring that back so we can truly see what that gap is so a byproduct of this whole conversation hopefully leads us to answering those questions thank you

And I agree, and that was the reason for my question earlier about the spendability quarterly versus sooner or whatever, but I absolutely agree. Where are we now? Are we in A, B, C, D? Where are we now, do you think?

That's really hard. I think on a large scale, people are mostly happy. I would put us somewhere in the B tier. You will get a lot of people who come from different walks of life who think that our shower should be spotless and you should eat off of them. And probably that's not the right analogy to use. But you get people who think that we should have a higher level of service. And they're like, why is that gentleman who carries trash bags with him in the facility? Because we're a public facility, and I'm very sorry, I don't have the staff or the time to go through every facility after every single person checks out of it, right? And so it depends on where the person is coming from from walks of life. I will say you are not going to find another 16-year-old recreation facility anywhere, and I mean anywhere that is in as good of condition externally looking. There's a lot of rough stuff going on in the building side. But the way it looks, and I've traveled the country, and every time I go anywhere, I stop at the library and I stop at their rec facilities. You're not going to find one 16 years old that is as well kept as our facility.

Yeah, I do want to congratulate you for that. And you also reminded me of a Seinfeld episode I saw a couple days ago, and part of it was Kramer tossing a salad in the shower. It was multitasking. But I... I guess the thing I think about is the two things that really amazed me about this area when I first came here. That really, like, I gasped in amazement. First was seeing the red rocks of Sedona, and the second one was coming to a town of 12,000 people and seeing the rec center. And folks who have lived here a long time, I don't know if they really, you know, remember that but i do the first time i saw it um and you know the rec center for me is for recreation that's the perfect name it's it's the center it's the hub um and you know i i know that i spent a lot of time at the rec center i i hear complaints I hear people complaining about the lighting in the gym and they can't see the ball and then they go out and they start playing pickleball for three hours. Or, you know, complaining about the temperature of the pool and then they jump in the pool. And I guess, you know, you're always going to get a certain amount of feedback and you have to manage the feedback between. you know, folks who see somebody in authority or they believe is in authority and they want to lodge their feelings, as opposed to, you know, really just areas of, you know, that really affect safety or really affect the comfort of the people. And to that end, I agree with Vice Mayor Coats that the locker rooms really need some attention. Beyond that, I'm looking at your needs assessment and I can nitpick some of this, but from an overall standpoint, I don't have any issue with it. But I do kind of feel like I'm operating a little bit in the blind because and I know to a certain extent, looking out years ahead, we all are, but I don't know, I don't really feel comfortable with what can we afford and what can't we afford. It looks like the capital improvement projects for fiscal year 27 are on track. My personal feeling, and again, I don't wanna go line item by line item, but I thought the operational maintenance budget I don't know what the historical trend, whether you're able to operate within that budget, but it seemed low to me. But I think where we're at, I would agree with your grade assessment. My other point, or... observation. I also agree with Vice Mayor Coats. It's great to have new things, but we have really invested in a lot of different very nice facilities over the years, and we should commit to maintaining them before we start talking about investing in new things, unless Yeah, we find that we're in a really good budgetary standpoint. Does that make sense?

Yes, sir. And Madam Mayor, Council Member Marks, so one thing, and we'll get an opportunity to go into this in the next part, but to address the equipment maintenance line item. And so every council gets to give different direction, right? And so we're still on track from previous city managers and city councils where they had very aggressive cost recoveries. And so when you have super aggressive cost recoveries on facilities like this, The unintentional consequence is you nickel and dime everything. Do we really need that or can we add some duct tape and paint it to match, right? And so that's where a lot of the money saving and pinching comes from is that mentality of well we need to generate this much revenue. So to do that, then you get everybody thinking, well, how else can we fix this without fixing it? And so what I'm hearing from this council is that's not what we want. We want to take care and maintain things. And conversation's not done, obviously, but that's something that we can do. So for this council to know, if you ever walk into the conference room at the recreation center, I have our decision-making matrix right up on that board. And it says, safety, service, budget, and benefit. That's how we make decisions. Is it a safety issue? Fix it. What does it do to our customer service? Does it enhance customer service? If so, let's talk about it. What does it do to our budget? How do we balance those two together? And then ultimately, what is the benefit from doing it? And so that's how we make decisions on these things. And as long as I'm around, that'll be the way I continue to make those decisions. And so we can realign that with the expectation of this council. And so if council is saying, take care of things and be proactive, don't let the sink break. If you know it's not working right, buy a new sink. Or don't let the ceiling fan not work. You know it's 10 years old, replace the ceiling fan. We can do those things if that's the direction of this council. I just want to be clear about how that impacts the next portion of this conversation. When you talk about cost recovery and generating revenues, that also has an impact on that side.

I have a question. I want to ask about the cleaning services. I'm wondering if there is some line of communication that can be created with them, whoever they may be in the future. I mean, this contract that's playing out through the end of this year is... is one thing, but who we have doing cleaning and also some general maintenance along with that perhaps. Can we create a line of communication with them from from staff, from you in particular, to them about what needs to be done and what their expectations there are so that they're not leaving things undone. They know more precisely what their jobs are and are getting them done because there really was a time when I think the rec center was maintained at a very high level and very clean, very Everything was in order. And yeah, it really pains me to think of a decline from that point, realizing that some people who come in are not really helping with cleanliness. They don't really care if it's clean or not. But when it was new, people did. I really think that they did a pretty good job of doing what they had to do in the locker rooms and getting the heck out of there and not not creating problems and not destroying things. There were people I thought, you know, I'm tired of everybody's hair ties or chewing gum or the showers being left on. But other than that, I didn't see a lot of of issues early on um but if those things are problem now how can we how can we communicate and tell them hey these things need to be done and can can we contract with people on uh you know for a shorter span of time um and explain our expectations and if they don't meet them find somebody who does want to do that because what we're paying them is not insubstantial it's a decent living You know, and a lot of times it does come down to just a few people doing this work. So it can represent a pretty good living, depending on how many people you got working for you. But yeah, I just, I don't know why it has to be a continuing problem when it should be one that's reasonably solvable.

Yes, Madam Mayor, you make really great points there. There's a lot to get into when we start talking about our cleaning contract. To answer your first question with it, is there a line of communication? There is, and Mr. City Manager Cifuentes over there has been on some of my communications with them. I'm always polite and I'm always kind, but I have sent some very pointed emails to the point where I clearly state this does not meet my expectation. There still is only so much we can do to hold them accountable. And so, Manager Cifuentes can have more conversations with you on the conversations he and I have had on potential ways to solve this. I don't want that to get in here because it's not fair to the contract holder. And that's not what this is about, but there is communication. And so every day, not every day, They're supposed to send us, uh, follow ups every day. Um, and so I have to the point gone through, they send us a log every day and they give us a grade. They'll say it's a 93% grade. Right? And they go through and they highlight all the areas and they check mark the boxes and they send pictures and I go and I stand on the same spot and I take a picture 2 feet away and I send that back and say. I'm so sorry. Your pictures mean nothing to me. Here is what I am seeing, and this doesn't meet the expectation. And so I've had very pointed discussions. We've done everything. I've had meetings with their ownership, their general manager, and they are all phenomenal people. And I truly believe if they were the ones doing the work, we would have top-level facilities. I think the other challenge is all this work happens overnight. and i don't know about any of you who's up at two o'clock in the morning having supervisors there for quality control can be a challenge for them too and they they aren't exempt to any of the staffing struggles anybody else has and then the last thing is it really is a 16 year old facility and we have very hard water that's 16 years of hard water and so i don't want to put it all back on them But it is a challenge. There are open lines of communications. We've made a change internally this year where it's one contract point, and so we send everything to that contract point and include them on it to clean up any of those communications. And then the last thing I'll say on it is this isn't the only cleaning company we've ever had, and they all have the same issues. It typically is the same people in a different shirt. And so the product doesn't really ever change. Um, and so when I was, when I was going through my, uh, certified public manager course at, I actually used our cleaning contract as an assignment that we were given. I had to review a contract that the city had and speak on both of it. And, uh, 1 of my. I felt really embarrassed. I never even thought about this. Some of the feedback I received from one of my professors at the time was because I made the statement every year, every time we change is just same people in a different thing. He said, well, what motivation do they have if they've been with a company for five years and they get step raises and the company changes and they have to start back down at the bottom of the next company? Right. And so I was like. I consider myself a fairly smart person. I'm slightly embarrassed that I never even crossed my mind. And so, again, I don't want to speak for them. I don't know their challenges. But there are other challenges outside of their control, too, that aid into the troubles we have with the cleanliness. But I can sit here and I look you all dead in the face. It's not because I haven't tried to hold them accountable. And this has not been an ongoing, this isn't a new thing. This is years and years worth.

i wasn't trying to blame you no no i know that's i just wanted to highlight um the ways that we do try to hold them accountable yeah mr tiller you had asked for council's response to your question about in this example of the facilities cleaning is that um can you go back to that slide yeah i'm trying to find which one it was right there is the current level of service meeting council's expectations yeah for me no um i would like if you could see if you can find an alternative although i heard what you just said and i realized that There may not be a suitable alternative, but we have a beautiful facility, rec center facility built in 2010. And I just think I would like to see a better level of custodial service to preserve the cleanliness of our facility and continue to make it an inviting place for people to come.

And I will tell you that in 2010, those conversations were at the top of our list. We, we always intended that the facility would would be preserved, um, that it would always, um. Be kept up to a high degree because yeah, it's it's a hugely expensive facility, but an amazing asset for the community and we never wanted to see it decline. so um the the those conversations were had before the the building was even uh fully constructed um i i certainly want that i i feel like our rec center is the crown jewel of the city and um and i want to see it maintained at a superior level if that's at all possible and and i feel that way about all of the city's assets so this is something that yes vice mayor coates is mentioned council member marks is mentioned but that's really the central reason why i ran for mayor is that i want to see the city's assets preserved um that's That's always been the most important thing, rather than diverting funds to new projects. And in my opinion, what's at the top of the list is operations. Systems have to operate first. And the aesthetic should follow that. Everything that has aesthetic value, the flooring, the carpeting, the paint on the walls, all of those things do need to be attended to. But they're not top priority. It's keeping the systems moving that really matters. And that's what really matters to the patrons, too. I mean, it's great to paint things and put down new carpet, but if the air conditioning doesn't work and the lights don't come on, it's not of great value. No, the point, I really, I will tell you that I kept going through the, I went through the whole thing twice. And by the end of it, watching all of these enormous numbers go past my face was making me queasy. I finally had to like, oh, okay, stop. Because, you know, I can't, i can't focus on all of that much longer it's just it's so much um but i think that um i think that we really can the only new things that i i would want to do are the fields over here i would like for you know if it necessitates moving the dog park or uh the um The community garden, I don't really know, but I would like to see the fields over here developed into something that is usable and playable, something that the community can enjoy. Um, that's the only thing that that I would look at at the, at the immediate moment, because we're in the middle of of looking at, um, the old town. Master plan, um, I don't want to do anything with that activity park until until we have an old town master plan and until. you know we're we're ready to move city offices to a new facility there's really no point in in dwelling too much i mean if there's some maintenance and upkeep good let's do that But I don't really see any great need to pour a lot of funding into that at the moment. I think it's our other, you know, it's here, it's Riverfront Park, it's the rec center, it's the outdoor pool, those things, and the library, the roofs, that's, yeah. that i i don't i i don't want to think too much about it but but that's a high priority and somehow or another we we have to be able to plan for that set aside funds for that get ready for that and um and i know that we're not going to do that with the fees that we collect from from the services that we offer in those two facilities so So we're going to have to do some serious planning and get ready for that eventuality. That's going to be a huge project for each of those buildings.

Jack, do you know how much time is spent in each facility that the cleaning company does for the City?

Madam Mayor, Councilmember De Willis, Anecdotally, maybe, but not a place for me to say today. I'd have to look at that information. They tell us specific things, but I know when they punch in and punch out of our alarm system. Anecdotally, I know, but I don't think now's the time for me to share that information without really looking into it and getting you a better educated answer.

How many people are at the rec center from the cleaning company? And how often?

So again, Council Member De Willis, we don't control their staffing levels.

No, no, I understand that. But I used to work for this company. And I know when I was doing it by myself, I was at the rec center from four to six hours a night. And I remember never getting complaints when I was there. So these are things that I'm very curious about. And I'm not saying that the company, there's a lot of turnover. And I understand that. You can't find a person that wants to be a janitor in the middle of the night. They're not knocking on the door to come in. But I do think that we need to kind of, for lack of a better term, kind of need to start hammering on this cleaning company. And they need to upgrade or get with the chemical company that they use to maybe bring them in and say, this is what we're looking at. What can we do about it? How can we do better? Before there was three or four of us, I believe, that used to be there and we were there for about two hours. Everybody had their job and it was always done. So it's kind of the same company. It's just kind of changed names. It's the same person. And I just, I really think that we kind of need to, For that kind of money, we need to let them know that we expect a lot more. And I know that they are capable of it. I do so. Maybe they need to up their staffing or or something, but yeah, something needs to be done to maintain the cleanliness of this building.

Thank you, sir.

Facility maintenance, facility cleaning is a very human-intensive operation. And as somebody who used to manage in a company, it was a contract security guard company, very human-intensive. Yes, you want to deliver a level of service, but your main priority is maintaining your profit margin. And so if you're deploying additional people at the same cost, that's gonna eat into your margin. And I would, short of being told, do this or you're going to lose your contract, and even that only has a certain lifespan before that just becomes noise to these companies also. But what my point is, I feel what you're going through. I've been on both sides of it, dealing with these contracted services that are very human intensive, where you have a lot of turnover and you have a lot of folks who aren't being paid very well because the company's trying to maintain their profit margin. At the end of the day, it's not fun to hear this, you gotta get what you gotta get. And I know you only have so much time in a day to go chasing after your facilities, your cleaning service. So I would say that alternatives such as bringing it in-house may be a better alternative.

um madam mayor councilmember de willis councilmember mark so again i don't want to get too far into that i think city manager sefuentes has talked a little bit about this as well my personal opinion is is if you want it maintained at the same level that you expect yourself it's always best when it's an internal because they share the same goals When you privatize things, they have competing goals, right? They do share your goal. I think our cleaning company does want our facility to be very clean. But I think it's realistic that they are a business as well. And so we can ask for additional staffing. They're going to say, sure, we can do that. Here's the bill for that. And so that's the challenge with that part. But I do hear you all loud and clear. It is in my notes. I know that Managers Fuentes and I have had numerous conversations about it, and I know we're talking globally about this and not just parks, library, and clubhouse related too. So I would imagine that whether it's from me or whether it's from somebody else, you'll see an item about this sometime in the future, directed to the cleaning, I should say.

Well, Mr. Thiel, again, thank you for all the information that you provided. And it seems like our focus has been right here, has been the rec center. And I understand that it is the focus of the community and probably how many people would you say use the rec center daily?

We average about 600 to 700 a day. And then in the summertime, that goes up a little bit with the youth groups and teenagers and kids.

And the library, how many?

The library is a lot as well. And so my apologies, Mayor, Councilmember. The library is another very highly used service. They're excess of five, 600, 700, again, based on programs that they're doing a day. And then that doesn't account for the online resources and things that people are using of that. Now, that doesn't interrupt the facility, but they're still users as well because we are still answering the email, filling the book orders, taking in the returns, all those separate items.

Right, and I know they have a good... group of volunteers there at the library.

If we can duplicate the library volunteer program anywhere, we would be doing excellent. That is they are wonderful, phenomenal, fantastic individuals.

And so like the rest of the council, I think we want to be proactive with what we have. And I would like the library to be part, just not to focus on the rec center, but think about the library. I mean, I had five people in my neighborhood this summer have their roofs redone because of leaks. So I became very proactive and had my roof done. So I know the importance of being proactive when you see things start to deteriorate. And so for me, you know, The roof at the library would be, you know.

Yes, ma'am.

Would be there with some of the things that we've talked about for the rec center. I noticed that the recreation center, there's now a little notice in the women's restroom that on Wednesdays from 1 to 3, the locker room will be closed for maintenance. That's very proactive. I mean, it tells us that you're interested in seeing that things get done.

That directly came from me finding out those sinks had been out for months.

So, you know, for the rec center, you know, the air conditioning, all those things that you talk about, they certainly are proactive. And I think that's where I would want, let's be proactive. Yes. And then some of those little things, the bathrooms at the library, they're a little outdated, but they still function, right? But if the roof leaks and destroys books or whatever, that's a big issue. Well, thank you again for your time.

Absolutely. And Madam Mayor, Council Member Mosley, just so all of Council is clear, I know we focused on one building really. My stance on this is listening to philosophy. And so we've said a lot at the Rec Center, I'm taking that same feedback and saying this is the philosophy for all of our facilities. And so don't worry if we're just highlighting one. We're going to treat that across the board. But I'm not done yet. If you remember, I've got a second portion of this. Okay. And so as much as you'd like to get rid of me, I got a little bit more for you.

Just looking at it from a cost-benefit standpoint, are there any facilities that are underutilized? And if the answer is, in your opinion, no, then that's awesome because you always see a lot of people utilizing facilities.

Madam mayor council member mark, so again, it's a tricky question. I'm so sorry. I know you hear me say that a lot. It underutilized to who right? We got a set of value to that. Um, so some would contend that the cottonwood community clubhouse is an underutilized facility, right? Um, because it's used 56 days out of a year or something like that. But if you take 56 days and you say, well, by golly, there's 52 weekends in a year. And then I tell you the clubhouse is booked every weekend. Doesn't that sound a little different? And so we would have to set a value. I would say probably the community clubhouse is underutilized. And in my personal feeling, it being a historic building, maybe we can better match some of the things we do there. It hurts my heart seeing some of the things that go on there and the way that the facility is left afterwards. I would say some of our pocket parks. heavily utilized by one group, I would say like Lions Park. I would not say it doesn't lack for people, but it's maybe not the right use that we would like to see.

Right, and I don't know what the cost is to maintaining the clubhouse. I don't know if it's a fairly low maintenance facility. I know it just had the projector installed. So that would be part of the equation also.

So if you were asking purely from a business standpoint, do we bring in revenue to offset our expenses? No. That would be the answer for that. They're all not efficiently utilized if that is the criteria we're looking at.

Well, and I don't want to single out, I just want to say this as an example. I don't want to have a discussion about it. But just as an example, we're looking at $5,000 for a volleyball net.

Five, yeah, 5,000.

5,000. And my question is, are we getting enough utilization to make it worth that cost? Yes, there may be a group of four or eight people who will say, hell yeah, it is. But I just want to make sure that we're kind of taking a look at it from that standpoint. Just because we have the asset doesn't necessarily mean the asset's being used or used enough for the money that's being put into it.

Yeah. And so I, Council Member Marks, Madam Mayor, so I did try to do a pretty good job of looking at it as an unbiased viewpoint in those assessments. That specific item, it was heavily utilized when they worked well. I would say like our horseshoe pit. We could probably live without the horseshoe pit back there. We keep those and people can rent them. And I haven't had to lift that heavy tub in a very long time. And so that tells me probably underutilized. And so, again, it's the chicken or the egg. If you build the facility and it's upkept well, will people use it? And that's really where the decision point needs to be made. Some of our facilities have gone to a point of disrepair where – Go out there on a Sunday night when you've got your little pickup league over here, and you'll see how they have to hang their net. It's wild. And so I try to base the question off, if this was a... Good, repair, everything was perfect on it, would it be utilized and should we continue to do it? That's how I try to make them. The other side of that is, a lot of these are passive activities. People always tell me, the disc golf course is never used. Go out to the disc golf course and walk. You're gonna see that it's heavily used. The skate rink, that's another one. The whole conversation was the skate rink was never used. And then you saw the turnout come to council when that discussion was there. And so it's all, again, going to be based on the value we put to it. And if we get that into a good usable condition, the question then becomes, will it be used? And if so, should we make that investment? That's why I tried to do it in that assessment in front of you all. And so what you're getting there, I personally did that assessment. So those are my feelings throughout that entire document.

All right. Thank you.

that's what i that's the way i think of things too because i've seen things that are in decline and then people can't use them anymore so they don't but if we make things nice then then people want them and and begin utilizing them even more I mean, I hate to say this in front of Council Member Marks, but there was a period of time when the tennis courts were not being used very much because they were in disrepair to such a degree. And now I see people out there playing pickleball all the time. So, you know, the repairs have made a big difference because otherwise, you know, tennis players and pickleball players would have just gone someplace else and found a functional facility had the $40,000 to...

At least resurface that court not been done and madam mayor One thing I will say on this this is easier to represent in programs Programs are really simpler people attending the program and so I may catch some flack from this council here But the old town activity park like we didn't run the old town music in the market this year. I Got less than five complaints to me that's a good indicator we don't need that program anymore. And so we'll rethink what that program is, right? And so I like to say people will vote with their feet. If they want something, they're gonna be there. And so when you look at programs, if you aren't getting people, probably rethink your program. So that's an easier way for me to represent that than facility use is on that side of the house.

So I wanted to second what the mayor and council member Mark said, um, and consistent with what you were just saying, Mr. Teal, um, you know, as we move forward in this process, it's likely difficult choices will need to be made and i would be in support of surrendering or not continuing certain lesser used activities in the interest of bolstering the level of support for our major prime facilities because i i suspect that's where we may be heading is we have to make some there's limited revenue right

absolutely and that does lead in very good into our next um one if council is ready we can move on into the long awaited i know for two years you've heard me talk about the subsidy pyramid and it's finally here um and so if council's okay with it i'll move into this section and so really what we are getting at here and madam vice mayor to your point we do have limited resources And not only that we compete with those limited resources, a bunch, a lot of other worthy departments. Right? And so I explained to people all the time, like, how do I compete with a 1Million dollar fire truck? I lose out almost every time. Right? The fire is very important. Pd is very important. Water wastewater, their enterprise funds, but we compete for the same dollars. Right? And. you compete with the services we offer. And so that's a lot of this conversation tonight. And so where I want to now pivot this is we've talked about the facilities we do have and keeping up on them and all those things, right, and the conditions we want. That has to be balanced with who's going to pay for those. And so when we talk about this subsidy pyramid, and this is... common in Parks and Recreation, maybe not the exact way I'm delivering it to you, and so if this is your first time seeing it, please feel free to ask me any questions. But it starts down at the base, right? And so you'll see it goes from a full subsidy, where we're saying this is important to us, We're going to offer this for our residents. And I try not to say free, because they pay tax dollars. They're paying that through their tax dollars. But for the sense of the conversation, these are free programs, right? And then they go all the way up to personal good, where it's, I like to say, fitness training. Nothing in the world obligates you to have to go get a personal trainer. If you want a personal trainer, you can have one that you pay for and it generates revenue, right? And so that's really, it's that spectrum of 0% up to... 100% cost recovery and generating revenue, right? And so every service exists somewhere on that spectrum. My goal tonight is when I go through this, not for you to focus on where things are placed. I put those in there just as a general template for me to work off of. This isn't finalized. This is not set in stone. Once we get council's general ideas, we can bring this back. But this part is the part that is really going to be helpful for us. to know how we have to set fees. And so again, I'm not asking you to say, well, should we increase swim lessons from $45 to $47? That's not the conversation, right? What I'm asking is, do you want every kid in Cottonwood to learn how to swim and have a low barrier cost of entry? Or are we saying, that is a personal good. You don't need to learn how to swim. We need to generate revenue off of that. right and so that's where this conversation is is going to take us now and so when we talk about this these are all the programs and offerings i mean maybe it's not exhaustive but at the time i was putting this together this is everything that was in my head and so these are really the things we're talking about the community events we do the different sports that use our facility the different facilities we have all those different items and so i've taken this sheet And I've broken them out into the different areas where I think they could go. Again, this is really at the direction of council. If council came back and said, we want everything as a pure community good and we're going to subsidize everything. We probably would have some financial questions for you, but we would work at council's will. But to your point, Madam Mayor, yes, tough decisions are going to have to be made because we are getting to a point to where we're breaking into, Mario stole my thunder earlier, Manager Cepuentes, I was gonna use this time to talk about our parks and our fields. If you want A-level fields, if you want stadium fields, I will give you stadium fields. somebody's going to have to pay for them, right? And so it's a balance of how good do we want these fields versus who's going to pay for them. Do you want them really high and full subsidy? We'll do it. Do you want them really good fields and half subsidy or really good fields and no subsidy? Or do we want okay fields and okay charges, right? And so those are just really good examples for people to see. And so when we talk about pure community, good, these are very high subsidies. These are programs with little or no cost. And again, don't focus so much on these are just the programs off top my head that I thought would fit that the general community gets an opportunity to attend at a very little barrier.

Yes, Madam Mayor, I just wanted to ask about the cottonwood cinema series. Do people is, is this at the pool?

Yes, ma'am. So they, Madam Mayor, they used to be called dive-in movies, right? Yeah. And then we, for a couple years, tried rotating them to different parks to activate those spaces. People didn't really love the drive-in feel on our screen, so then we're like, okay, well, how do we move them to different facilities to showcase the facility? We did a couple in the clubhouse, and those were well attended, mostly because they were scheduled for the park and it rained, and so we moved it into the clubhouse. And so when we started moving them other places than the pool, that's when we did the Cottonwood Summer Cinema Series, the retitle there.

Okay, and so when people come to that place, Is it free to get in, or if it's at the pool, do they pay to get into the pool?

So currently it is free to the user, but that's because we have gotten sponsors to cover the cost. And so all we're doing is paying the staffing cost of those, but we get sponsors to cover the movie rights on all of them.

Okay, thank you.

So then we move up one rung on our subsidy pyramid and we go from pure community good with a very high subsidy to a mostly community good with a high subsidy, right? And so this is saying, hey, you know, this is still good for most people. So a good example of these, and please keep, I wrote these two years ago. And so some of it has changed and I went through and I updated some of them, but we didn't have our senior programs at that point, right? And so mostly community good is where I talk about our senior programs a lot. It's not everyone in the community, right? It's a subsection of the community. And so should they still receive a high subsidy? That's an opportunity for council to have that discussion. But this is where I would put that program, right? And same thing where I would put youth programs or teen programs or any of that. Our Missoula Children's Theater is in here, right? We do free program for the children to participate. If mom and dad would like to come see this show, we'll sell you a ticket, right? And so this is a high subsidy where we still, we're not recouping lots of money, but there's skin in the game from the parents on this side.

The outdoor pool user fees, do you mean like in the, like in September and October, the additional fee charged or just in general?

Madam Mayor, this would be just in general.

Okay.

Yeah, if you were to look at what we pay to operate the outdoor pool, these outdoor pools.

No, don't make me look at that.

No, I would just consider this. It is very common for municipal governments to operate outdoor pools at very low cost to participate because of its function. But you still charge entry into it.

Sure. No, I do know how much it costs, actually. I was just kidding.

Madam Mayor, members of Council, Jack, you said it's common for cities to operate outdoor pools at a high subsidy. But how common is it in this day and age for municipalities to operate outdoor pools?

So splash pads are taking over the world, and so it is much less expensive to operate a splash pad than it is to operate an outdoor pool. And I know I've got Tom in the background. Our outdoor pool is 300,000 gallons. That gets recirculated and you burn off to evaporation, but essentially we keep that, don't introduce new water all the time. Splash pads are a little different based on how you build them. But more people are installing splash pads and other variations because of the staffing costs and the risks that go into the operation of an outdoor pool. You can only open it if you have lifeguards, right? And when you have lifeguards, you've got staffing costs. If you're going to have one, well, you've got to have two because you've got a backboard if you need it. And so the cost for that, it is a barrier. So if you follow along, Town of Payson is a big one. If you're interested in that, go back.

Five to eight years and just catch up to now and you'll kind of see that discussion play out real time we are seeing some communities though kind of they've they kind of went away from having an outdoor pool, but People want them, you know, they the citizens of the area want them so Even though it's an expense. It's it's something that people want.

Yeah, absolutely. I And so the next rung is what I call balance good, and this is where there's a shared cost. These programs offer intermediate skill development, where both the community and the individual benefit. And so this, you'll see, this is where I have swim lessons, right? We do want every kid to learn to swim. My personal feeling is all kids should know how to be safe in, on, and around the water. We live near a river that is very near and dear to my heart. But also that should come at a cost because you are learning a skill specific to you. And so that's kind of what balanced programs are. So after school programs are another one here where We need places for kids to go, but that doesn't mean that they should not have to pay for those services that we're still having to staff, we're still having to do the building and still having to provide things, right? But we know that if kids don't have a place to go, they're still gonna go out and do something. And so I always tell people, I'd much rather see what the kid is doing and the damage that's occurring than not know what is going on and where their kid's at and what damage is occurring. And so that's kind of the idea of the balance cost and that shared good. So the next one is mostly personal good. This is a low subsidy, high cost recovery, right? These are specialized or competitive programs. And so some of these you can see here, I think of adult sports. Thunder Valley Rally is a really good example here in the sense of our goal is to bring a bunch of people to this area, right, to create tourism dollars, and that stands for something on its own, because if you bring people here and they're spending money, We're going to generate revenue in other ways. So maybe it doesn't have to do 100% of its cost, but it needs to cover a lot of its operational cost. And then the community as a whole will still benefit indirectly by those tax dollars being spent here. But if you want to go to it, it's going to cost you a ticket, right? That's kind of what these ones are. High school sports are really common in these ones. So you'll see them kind of there. And then moving on to our last one, this is the pure personal good. These are typically where you see zero subsidies and operational revenue generation. And so like Daddy Daughter Date Night is a really good example of us that we do on a program here. That program does generate money for us, Every child and parent couple who sign up, they pay a fee. That fee covers the DJ, that fee covers the food, that fee covers the activities we do. And keep in mind, none of these really are meant to cover the indirect staff cost. You still are paying staff. We're doing something throughout the day, right? But if Council's direction is that is what we want, we build those things in. But those are the ones, the Cottonwood Vintage Run, that's a revenue generator for us. We try to make sure that our fees are not just break even. I'm not saying we're gonna go build a ball field for the money we make off the vintage run. But it's not meant to lose money. Those programs are meant to sustain themselves year over year and make sure that we aren't costing more on the tax base for that. We've got a pretty good record, but that doesn't always happen with those things. And so these are the ones where you start seeing trends like, hey, three years in a row, vintage runs not covered its cost. Do we keep that program? That's how you make those decisions. But that is the long-awaited subsidy pyramid. And so now we're going to go back to council with this. I'm not asking, and we're not locking into commitments or anything like this in any specific project, level of service, or funding model. The goal is really to understand council's direction. So we know how to move forward when we bring you our fee study, the master fee study for the city. But specifically, when I bring you back to parks and recreation fees, I'd like to know what council stands on some of these. So, again, the 3 questions I asked you to keep in the top of your mind when we started. And my apologies, vice mayor coach, you weren't here for that maintaining and reinvesting in our existing assets versus addressing current capacity and service levels and planning for future facility and expansion. I think I've got pretty clear direction on the priorities and how you see those things. I think that I can work on that and bring something back to you. So, the next piece is the subsidy levels. Does the proposed subsidy philosophy generally reflect Council's direction? Is that what you guys want? Do we want an idea where the greater community benefit, the greater community subsidy, the greater individual benefit, the greater participant responsibility? And then looking at those programs, are they genuinely placed at the appropriate areas within that structure for us to make those decisions and bring things back to you? So my last question, and then I'm done with all the slides. Are we headed in the right direction based under what this council would like?

Yes. Yeah, I'd say overall, yes. I do have a couple of questions. And really, I think more than anything, they're kind of technical questions. You have pure community good, reservations for public use, and then... Mostly personal group reservations for private parties and events. What what would a reservation? Can you give me an example of a reservation for public use?

Absolutely. Um, so, madam mayor, um, council member marks, uh, think about when we hold, um. council meetings, or not necessarily council meetings, meet and greets, ask the, you're running for council, we hold those meetings for you to come in and talk to council and get direction, right? That is for a community benefit, right? And so typically we don't charge programs in that sense. If it is truly for the community and the whole community has this opportunity, we're willing to make that free and available to you. If you want to go have a nice wedding, invite 300 of your guests, you're welcome to do that at our fee rate. And so that's the difference between the two. When you look at the community good, when we go and we do the movies in there, that's a community reservation, right? When you want to hold a quinceanera, that's a private use.

How do we work with the Chamber of Commerce on lunch and learn events, which people have to register for and pay for? They pay a fee for that. Does any of that fee come back to the city?

So, Madam Mayor and Council, this is a really great question and one that I contemplated putting in here because it's something that I have had my eye on for many years. So, Council in... I'd have to go back and look at the exact minutes, but somewhere in that timeframe adopted a policy where nonprofits get for free uses per year of all of our facilities. And so that really hamstrings us in a lot of cases, because it's a very broad policy, and it wasn't nailed down to specifics. And so staff has used some working. parameters, I guess, that I tried to operate and apply consistently and fairly. But the way it currently read in the minutes was if you were a nonprofit, you get to use the facility for free. It didn't even say you had to benefit Cottonwood. So if you were a nonprofit in Wyoming, call me up. We'll get you set up, right? And so it's a misuse of the facility. And so I have taken the stance of, sure, that's what it says. That's not the intent. Cottonwood has to have some sort of benefit. And so... What that is for the chamber, we look at what the benefit is for the chamber. I've never turned down a chamber request out of their four free ones. When they expend their four free ones, then we go back to you got to pay. But for those ones, they give us their certified nonprofit letter. They use the facility for free. The caveat to that, if you don't pay... If you're not going to clean the facility yourself and meet our standard we're going to charge you the cleaning fee And I don't waive the deposits for many people Because our deposits council set at 400 for just general meetings and 800 for like usage and stuff Look at those floors in there $800 does not do much if somebody damages that floor and so I don't waive deposits It's almost never I waive deposits for people but to answer your question When they come in as a nonprofit, the city doesn't really see any revenue from that. The rental is free, and then our costs are typically pass-through costs. What we charge for the cleaning is what the cleaners charge us.

Could we offer maybe one free meeting for a nonprofit?

During this process, I promise you I'm going to bring that policy back to you.

And then offer a discounted rate. I think we could sell that. I do. I think we could say, well, you know, the normal fee is this, but we will take off X number of dollars for you if you want to return to the facility. But yeah, how many times do we really need to let nonprofits in for free?

Yes, Madam Mayor.

Especially ones who can charge an additional little, you know, instead of charging people $25, charge them $30 and give the city a little more money.

Madam Mayor, sir, our fees, I would say, are very aggressive to begin with. We are a very low-cost facility. And even our neighbors across the street in Clarkdale, they just increase their fees to stop some of the behaviors that you see. And it's... I don't want to say it pushed people here because again the majority of the people who want our facilities want them on the weekends and It's rare that we have weekend openings But our fees are very aggressive and so during this process I hope I didn't lose a condenser Yeah, I'm not sure I think I lost one yeah i wasn't ready for that we will bring that item back to you for this council to clarify all right and get input on because it is something that i i believe hamstrings the city when we talk about generating um additional revenue for the use of our spaces yeah i'll be interested to hear what your recommendation i mean i'm throwing out a recommendation but um your input will be of interest

madam mayor if you wouldn't mind one time so one time free and then a discounted rate for additionals okay so mr teal i agree with the stratification that you've done i think the stratification of the various programs and services i seems to make sense to me my question to you is when you look across all these programs and services what is the cost to the city

um madam mayor uh vice mayor um i so i did not pull the exact um we can but ballpark yeah so i would say uh the recreation center operates at 100 or 1.4 million operation 1.6 million operation actually what i'm looking at is what you've presented here on these subsidy um program and offering that slide that you just had yep um the so how much it costs us for these programs and all those sports um and what was it there was the other miscellaneous category how much does that cost um so parks and recreation programming we have about forty four thousand dollars i believe um in that budget for parks and rec programs and so the way we line item it just is six four zero seven hundred it's not broken out into specific i've got them all broken out line item for me um so new year's eve we pay about three thousand dollars for Breakfast with Santa is about 500. Community Angel is, it's a donation-based, we cover anything that's left, we haven't really had to cover. John's picked up the tab the last couple years for the things that weren't covered. Our Easter event is about 3,000, 3,500. Love Cottonwood is a volunteer event that we don't do. Fourth of July costs us $45,000. Trunk or Treat is about 8,000 because we provide candy to the community who comes to the event to pass out. Kids to Park Day is $100 maybe. Cottonwood Cinema Series, each movie right, is about $500, but we get those sponsored. Old Town Music in the Market is about a $5,600 program. Again, we didn't do it this year. Comic Expo through the library is funded through the bookmarks board, and so that's a $0 outside of cost for us. And then reservation public use, that's a loss based on us not generating that revenue. And so I can go through that for all of them, but they're all pretty much the same. Art for kids is, again, a very low cost, a couple hundred dollars maybe.

We're talking maybe across the whole spectrum, like $10,000. I mean, it's...

Although you're not including staff time, so it does there is the cost of the staff that then have to plan these events, organize them, clean up after them, put them up, tear them down, which I don't think that's included to my point, which is.

i love these events i attend many of these events i support these events um i just have concerns about the number the total number of events and it's in part because of what kirsten was just saying in terms of staff time staff expense i see how much you put into these events i i know how much work it is behind the scenes to pull off some of these events it's and because they're done spectacularly well so but i'm just i i have concerns about staffing spread too thin and just staff expense for all the events that you have listed here and so my only

suggestion would be and it gets kind of to council member mark's earlier comment about utilization like do we should we really continue all these events would be my comment got it yeah madam mayor and council or vice mayor coats that is something we're looking at and so the first place we started was with old town music in the market right and so um again that program isn't Again, less than five people have reached out to me about it. And so that program, we're probably gonna transition out and look to see if we need to add something else, or maybe we don't. Maybe we take those resources, we allocate them elsewhere, right? And so that's something staff is looking at right now. Again, a lot of those conversations are secondary to this conversation. And so hearing counsel and your thoughts and your expectations for those is super helpful when we start diving into the inventory of what we have. And then the next thing from staff is I'll get together with staff. We'll go through them. I'll sit with Manager Cifuentes. We'll talk about the things we want to do. The one thing that I would caution, and I want council to understand this, luckily we've got long-serving council. A lot of these programs have been around for a very long time. And when you remove things that people have... I think you all know that I'm not always the most popular person in Cottonwood anymore. Removing things will make me even less popular. And so I just want council to understand that when those conversations happen, if they happen, they are tough choices. A lot of these things are ingrained in lots of people. It may not be a lot of them there, but the ones who go to those specific ones, it's going to hurt.

Were you ever the most popular person? You don't have to answer that.

I can't say that I was.

That is just a throwaway question.

It's never been my goal, though.

Sorry.

Well, I think you're on top of it, on assessing what is needed and what is not, and measuring the continuing community good. I think that's good. You know, let's... You know, let me temper, you know, what I said before also with something from, you know, another viewpoint is we are a community. And something that makes us a great community are the activities that take place. I'll never forget, you know, July 4th where Vice Mayor Coats was asking people as we were slinging hot dogs at them, you know, where are you from? And the number of people who are up from the valley, right? It's awesome. Made the two straight hours of slinging hot dogs totally worth it.

You're being kind if you're saying only two. We worked you guys well over what we said we were going to. I apologize and thank you all.

I don't remember. It became a blur after a while. I did have another kind of technical question. So you have mostly personal good, low subsidy, high cost. These are specialized or competitive programs. You included MUHS SWIFT. But then on the balance goods, shared costs, you have competitive swim. How...

So, yes, and the distinction there, it is small, but it is meaningful. So when I say competitive swim, and so I honestly removed the team names from there because I couldn't fit it in the box and keep my font big enough. And so that was a concession I made in my presentation to make sure council can see it. But that would be the Cottonwood Clippers and the club programs. So in the summertime, anybody can register for that program. You just pay your registration fee and you can swim with the Clippers, providing you meet their age and you're not a safety issue in the pool. The high school is different. You're a high school student. You are swimming competitively. And so that's why those two were broken out. And again, it's normal for clubs to use city pools. The high school has every opportunity in the world to build their own pool. And so they don't. They choose to use our pool. And it's been that way for a very long time. But that should come at a cost, too.

And that's why we have perennially have had an intergovernmental agreement with Mingus for the use of the pool, because it's beyond our normal season. We think of our normal season is ending on Labor Day, but they are swimming into September and October because that's when they're in school.

Yeah. And then that allows us the opportunity to share some of those costs. And again, that'll be a conversation. Their contract will be up here soon as well. So we'll have that conversation of what that looks like eventually as well. But that is the distinction, sir. Hopefully I answered that well enough for you.

And I just wanted to point out, too, that, you know, some of the jobs that are done in reference to the events, those really are not all, like, separate from staff's regular jobs. A lot of that is really embedded in the expectation of the job itself. So, well, people are... Some of these events go beyond... beyond the normal work day, but there's still an expectation that if you're hired for a job with Parks and Rec, you're probably going to be expected to participate in some of these events. So it's not separate from or outside of. And what we do for the community is really significant. The services that we provide through the library and the Parks and Rec Department are really Um, really beautiful services. I mean, I personally don't I'm really appreciative that we have such a wonderful police and fire department, but so far, thank you. I have not needed their services, but I've certainly needed the services of parks and recreation in the library. So these are things that make me feel pretty good about the sales tax. You know, when I want to grumble at my receipt and think, oh, I have to pay this level of sales tax, at least I know that there's something coming back that is for me personally and for my family. You know, I really appreciate that. I think that the value of... Of the services that you provide in the programs that you have created and support, and that we, as a council are able to support over time are really a significant benefit to the community in ways in many ways that we don't even see.

Excuse myself for a minute.

Go right ahead. Do you want my umbrella?

I second that motion. I want to amend what Mayor Shaw said. I think Personally, I think strategically, you're, you're definitely on the right track. I think a lot of the points we, we bought up or, you know, in the whole big picture of things relatively small. I think the city has a great. Mix of of events that drop people from outside the city. I think you've got a good handle on on, you know, facilities and events that we need to continue what we might need to take. a look at, you know, continuing or discontinuing. So I'd say very good job. I don't agree with the people who feel you're unpopular.

It's the nature of the work I do.

You're okay in my book.

Yeah, I don't take those things personal.

And Madam Mayor, if I can just jump in here real quick. You know, these aren't conversations for those folks, and we do know that residents watch these. These aren't conversations that we look forward to having. These are the difficult conversations. You know, our tax revenues were down a percent and a half last year. We're projecting another half percent down this year. Wages continue to go up to your statement that, you know, employees are our number one asset and the biggest cost. Like... You know, we're going to have to bring you in October a master fee schedule, and we're going to have recommendations across the board for fee adjustments. And part of those need to be based on cost recovery. And so we need to understand what council's appetite is for that. Related to this somewhat just right while we were having this, Michelle sent me a report, Michelle Kostecki, from Placer AI, because we're trying to work with them. And so they'll do freebies. And they geofenced the kids park for 4th of July. We had 7,200 attendees that day. And again, for the record, this is cell phone data that's tracked by these companies that folks agree to tracking when they do that. And so 7,200 unique individuals that stayed more than 15 minutes. So we know they came to the event. The vast majority of them came from the Valley. The next second highest number came from our neighbor to the north in Flagstaff. And then the rest came from the Verde Valley. So, and over half of them came from their home to the event and went back home. The number one place they visited here was Circle K, so I have to assume they wanted either ice or fuel, either coming and going, but that, it's pretty clear, and the data doesn't lie. Like, folks, you know, it's a great event, but it's $45,000, and we didn't see, you know, aside from them buying gas and stuff, folks didn't come and go to Old Town, there were no dots that showed going there, they were simply here. got the free food, and then they went back and enjoyed themselves in their own community. So that's just worth noting. And those are the conversations Jack and I started probably months ago talking about all of the programs we do. Are they all still valid today? Bang for the buck. When we look at that pie, and Tom was great to do the did you know on our water. And in an upcoming snapshot, I want to do the general funding. Chris and I talked about that, like that pie is only so big. If we're going to give more to parks and rec, we're going to have to increase the revenue to be able to do so, or we're going to have to take away from streets, police, or fire. That's just how it works in an era of declining revenues. And so we've worked and tried through our economic development to get that tourism dollar up, but we're just not seeing that in this economy right now.

Well, just my last comment to you really is just that, you know, in looking all of it over, I feel like your placement of the priorities is essentially correct. I don't I don't have any questions about that. Really? Um, I, I see those the, the items that you that you've delineated is as being, um, at the top of the list and, um. And yeah, the rest kind of follows from the operational point of view that what really matters is keeping all of the stuff that needs to run running first. And then we can go from there. But yeah, it's a lot of money, a lot of numbers. And we really have to have a long-term vision. about how we're going to fund all of it. So we do have a bond sunsetting in 27, so just throwing that out there again.

On something like, you know, 4th of July, you know, another thing to look at in terms of, in addition to terms of, you know, should we continue it is, you know, are there other ways to monetize it? Just throwing it out there. I'm not looking for an answer. Understood.

Yeah, like charging vendors and letting them do the hot dogs. That might have worked out. I'm not sure.

So just an anecdote there. It costs us $600 to do the hot dogs. All the material, everything is donated. Knights of Columbus cooks for us.

Does anybody support the fireworks still? Because those used to be almost entirely donated back a few years ago. I was going to say back in the day, because I do actually go back that far. I remember when we started doing fireworks, okay?

Yeah. Madam Mayor, so yes, they do, but it's not, I don't want to say it's proportional. Minerals Research has been a very good partner for us on that program and every year they cut us a check or this year they enhanced the event. As the celebration for the 250 and so I am always very proud of the display we put on and you will never hear me not say it isn't the best in all of northern Arizona and we compete with all of Arizona. Um, but this year, they really the finale was spectacular and that was thanks to minerals research. But there potentially is an opportunity to ask other organizations for that. We can always look at that. My gut feeling right off the bat is they don't do it for a reason. They probably aren't going to fund it, but. we can have those conversations okay not hearing anything else from council i believe i have the direction i need to move forward with my items and so if there's no other questions for me i will cede whatever time that i have left to kirsten next year we need more mustard for watermelon Mustard for watermelon. Yep. That will stay with me for forever.

It is very delicious. You got to try it before you knock it. But standing next to Mr. Marks and Vice Mayor Coates, I pushed mustard to absolutely every person that came through. And a lot of them used it and a lot of them liked it.

Yeah, just hang out with us a while. Evening, Kirsten. How are you doing? Good evening.

Good job, Jack. I am Kirsten Lennon, the Administrative Services Director now. which I have a hard time telling people that. I still call myself the finance director because that's my main duty. So tonight I'm here to talk, give you some information, and have you as a council have some discussion and give us direction on how we want to fund... a service agreement with the station on 6th or the senior center, whatever you want to call it. I have a hard time saying the station on 6th because it's been the senior center forever. It is a nice new name though. so in your packet um you had lots of information about what funding we have done in the past what that level was when we changed it from being a service agreement to being part of the grant programs that we've offered when we changed it back to being a line item, and then when we changed it back to the grants, and then now here we are again, looking at a service agreement. As you are aware, the last few years, the first one being in 2025, we did fund the senior center at $110,000 for the year. That was based on a council direction in a meeting somebody proposed that amount it was voted on and it was agreed upon and then the next year they went back to being in the grant program and they received ninety thousand but prior to that they had been getting somewhere around fifty five to sixty thousand dollars annually to assist with the Meals on Wheels program and with their dine-in lunches um in your packet you will also see that we currently have in the budget sixty thousand dollars towards this program but that does not mean that that is what you have to decide upon you could just have a discussion and give us direction and tell us to do more or less it is a hundred percent council's decision In your packet, you also have information on how much it costs the senior center to provide those services at $17 for a home delivered meal and slightly less for a Oh, sorry. $18 for a home delivered meal and $16 for a dining room meal. And you have information on what they get from NACOG, which is $10 for each home delivered meal and $9 for the dining room meal. And then they ask for a donation. I worked at a senior center in Sedona before I came to the city. And I remember that it was always... It was rare that you would actually get that donation from the people receiving Meals on Wheels because most of the time they have a set income and they're getting the meal delivered because they don't have the funds to purchase groceries. And then Overall, they basically are short $7 per home delivered meal and $3 per dining room meal. And when I was looking at their proposals and everything that they've asked, I thought, well, the city could help with half of that if we said we were funding three fifty for the home delivered meals and a dollar fifty for the dining room meals at least we are assisting in providing those meals since it really isn't a hundred percent the city of cottonwoods responsibility to fund those meals so that is why the proposal you have before you is 59 754 60 000 so with that i would like you to all be able to discuss ask questions give your opinion whatever you would like to do and give me direction on what you would like to see in the service agreement

I'll start. I just wanted to start first with commending Executive Director Erin Mayberry, her staff, her board, all the great volunteers for not only sustaining the Station on Six, but making a big step change over the past year in things like strategic planning, improvements in operational efficiency, and so much more. The list just goes on. So they've all done a fabulous job. um so with regard to what you just presented i agree with staff's recommendation for funding of approximately sixty thousand dollars for the delivered meals and the dining room meals In addition, I would also like for staff to come up with a list of in-kind services that the city could provide to the station, many of which are listed in Director Mayberry's partnership proposal. So there are things that the city could do, like marketing support, promoting the station events in the city's newsletter and social media channels, safety education, like on fraud prevention and home safety, the senior activities program. The rec center operates a senior activities program, which is wonderful, but so does the station as well. So I think we could maybe align those programs a little bit. So, again, I'm in concurrence with the proposal that's been shared with us, as well as augmenting it with some in-kind services that collectively, I think, would greatly benefit the station on 6 and the community as a whole.

I'm sorry, what did we give them last year? Was it $110,000? We gave them $90,000. Do you think mentally they're expecting $90,000? I'm just curious. Because they've probably done their budget.

Well, I know that we have met with them, and I know that Director Mayberry has also met with council and talked to you. I think that they are... They are probably expecting more than the 60,000, but You know, you do have to understand that they'll always ask for more.

You know, I get that. I was just trying to think, I mean, is it going to burden them if it's $30,000 less or whatever, meaning unduly. That's all.

Yeah. And I do understand. And when I met with Director Mayberry and when... Manager Fuentes and I met with Director Mayberry. She and I had already had a conversation about in-kind ways that maybe we could help because I felt like I knew the city has a lot of services and things that we need to fund. But how could we help besides monetary? Is there another way that we could help you maintain your services without that? And I worked at a senior center, so I understand how difficult it is to find funding and get grants and do promotions and get the revenue in that you need for those programs.

i do understand yeah my big my big is always has been not to downgrade the senior center but my big thing is it's it we pay for cottonwood and if somehow we could help them or they help themselves whatever get revenue from the other communities they serve i just that bothers me so from my meeting with ms mabry and i have i have their their financial statement from last year

According to their financial statement, our donation was $90,000, and they want an equal amount this year. From the numbers they ran, in fiscal year 2026, it showed me the amount with one month remaining in the year, they'd spent $83,000 for Meals on Wheels to Cottonwood, for residents in Cottonwood. So you extrapolate that out, it'll come out to about $87,000. Inflation, probably, it would be 90,000. So that's my understanding. so as i mentioned i had you know i asked for and she was nice enough to give me their their financial statement from from 2026 and what and and there is the 20 the 90 000 donation what concerns me is the city of cottonwood i mean it's not even a um that is that is equal to the rest of their, almost equal to the rest of their general donations for the year. So unless a single person donated $96,000, the city of Cottonwood is by far the single biggest donor. And in terms of municipality, it's $90,000 from Cottonwood, $5,000 from Camp Verde, nothing from any other community, nothing from the county. That's, I, philosophically, I just have an issue with the city being the largest donor for any nonprofit. I don't know the, you know, there's no, again, I've said this before, there is absolutely no debating the need. There's just, the need is there. But the question that begs to be asked, the elephant in the room is, how hard are they working at raising funds to cover their operations?

Very.

Well, then the numbers don't make sense if that's the case. And something's, there's something, there's a disconnect somewhere.

So can I ask, Kirsten, does, or maybe Council Member Marks, you know, I mean, what we were provided was the cost for the home-delivered meals and for the... What do they call them? In-house congregate meals, right? So we're not, is the city being asked to pay for general operational expense?

But it's being.

So, I mean, we're being asked to pay for Cottonwood resident meals, right? We're not being asked to cover costs for other community meals.

But we are being asked to cover basically the entire cost of the delivery.

of the delivery of the meals and wheels for cottonwood for cottonwood residents city of cottonwood residents right so so bringing in what other communities are paying to me with all due respect doesn't seem relevant because we're not talking about clark dale meals or camp meals provided to camp verde residents we're what they're asking for is just money for meals going to Cottonwood residents. Is that correct?

That is what we're proposing their service agreement. They're asking for funding. They did not specify that they wanted to have funding for specifically Meals on Wheels or the dining room meals. What we are proposing is that the service agreement says that that's what we're funding, is a portion of the home-delivered meal and a portion of

the dining room meals but if i understood councilman remarks comment the numbers that director mayberry provided were for city of cottonwood meals but he's saying there's part of that which is i guess logistics costs that were bearing disproportionately is that what you're saying

Well, I mean, there's a cost of the meal.

Well, they're probably paying mileage, I guess. I don't know. Gas? Who knows?

No, just basically, they're serving somewhere in the vicinity of 12,000 meals at $7 a meal, which is $84,000.

Right, so we're paying less than what it actually costs them for cottonwood meals. Right? You're saying it's 90, and we're going to give them 60. I just want to clarify, that's all.

I think the proposal is $60,000. What they're asking for is to cover the entire cost of the meals on wheels.

Right, so where are you on staff's proposal? What is your?

I think I'm in favor of it. Okay. I feel like there's going to be pressure on the city, okay, because next year it's going to cost more. And so I'm not seeing everything that's being done as a non-profit I mean, you've got to have passion about your mission, and you've got to be good at raising money. And I'm concerned about that.

So you're okay with us, us meaning the city, providing 50% of the shortfall? Which is the 60,000 dollars a year.

Well, I'm, I'm kind of conflicted because again, the need is there, but I want to I want to see signs that there's better fundraising.

If I could comment at this this point, I'd like to offer my opinion about this because. um you know after after going around the facility again and talking to aaron again and talking about what the various needs are and costs you know there there's a lot of other stuff going on to keep a facility like that going we are focusing on the meals and um and nacog is is providing a a fairly high percentage of uh of the cost of all of this however um at this point in time considering that the The program is expanding. We all know that our population is aging, and so there are people now who are eligible for Meals on Wheels this year who probably weren't candidates for it last year. My suggestion would be to keep funding at the level that it was for FY26, in order for them to not be buckling under the strain of keeping this going while Erin's only been there a year. She's done an awful lot to straighten out everything that was going on. But she needs a little more time, I think, to get things on track. And yes, I too have discussed, at least lightly, in-kind contributions that the city can make. And what I would suggest is that we keep funding for this year where it was for the previous year, but then begin phasing it down over, you know, make a plan to kind of phase it down over the next two or three years so that, you know, we can bring it back down to the $60,000 level. But I'm a little bit worried about... about cutting them $30,000 right now in one fell swoop.

I support, excuse me, I support the staff recommendation for this service agreement. Did previous service agreements just focus on the Meals on Wheels? Do we know?

Would you like to answer that, John? Mr. Gaylord?

Mayor, Councilmember Mosley, my answer to that question is kind of.

Not not entirely.

No. So, yeah, kind of, um, it was always referenced as being, you know, an important part of the program that the city was funding. 1 thing that we're trying to do. This year, last year, we're trying to be a little bit more focused on exactly what it is that we are paying for. Um, and so rather than here's some money figure out what to do with it. Right? We are saying. here's a service that you are providing we want you to keep providing it we will pay you to keep providing it and and i would if i could i would direct your attention in your packets there's a two documents that the that the station provided one of them is they're both called partnership documents but i guess the shorter document and and in it they they broke down what the city receives and that's the page that's very focused on wheels on wheels and and that's where i think staff has become has focused in this service agreement on that program because that's the one where you know the the station has really pointed out to the city that look this is providing this program is providing benefits to the city and your mission and we've got those metrics and so that's where it's gotten more focused past versions of the agreement talked about meals on wheels but also talked about kind of other services in there and wasn't as focused on you know these dollars go to the service

And regarding the in-kind that we're considering, my understanding is that there is a state legislature has limited what we call gifts to nonprofits, is that correct?

Mayor council member mostly that, you know, that's a little bit of the explanation for the city's focus on making sure that we're tying the we're trying not to do like, I described it funding. Here's some funds figure out what to do with it. We're trying instead to pay for services that we specifically want. And that's part of the analysis, right? Is that. we're not supposed to for anybody, whether it's a, you know, it doesn't matter that it's a non-profit organization or a great organization or we know they're doing a good job. We're not supposed to be just kind of handing over the money and saying you figure out what to do with it to anybody, a corporation, a non-profit, anybody. So that's a big part of the Becoming more focused on contracting for something specific. That's part of the gift clause analysis. And certainly the in-kind partnerships, this is a, you know, the way I read it is it looks like they've gone through the whole list and they said, here's everything that we could think of. certainly from that same analysis, some types of in-can service would be more justifiable than others. Some are better than others, and some are easier for the city to justify than others. And when you're doing that analysis, it's not like a complex philosophical legal analysis, right? It really comes down to how does it benefit the city? And so when we do that, we think what is the city's mission, what are the benefits, or what are the services that the city provides, and how does... What they're doing support what we're doing right? How does it contribute to what we're trying to accomplish? And so. Meals on wheels being a great example is, you know, as they highlighted, they said, well, meals on wheels can reduce the calls for service that you're receiving from home, Ben homebound persons. We provide service and we check in on people during severe weather events again. That's reducing the calls of service to you. And you can do that kind of same analysis with all these in kinds in their documents. Some of them you can say, oh, yeah, I can see where this would reduce demand for services the city is providing or that this would further efforts that the city has said this is what we're doing as part of our mission. And then there's others that are harder to make the connection. Right. And so, you know, they have probably. I don't know, at least 50 items on here, right? And you could sort them all. There's some in here that I think would be difficult to justify. There's some that would be slam dunks, and it's kind of line by line.

Okay, I would tend to go with the staff recommended. And there's a couple of other things. When she had that first meeting, we don't continue to have this debate every year.

you know okay in in fiscal year 2025 their fiscal year 2025 the support from the city was a 110 000 in 2026 it was 90 000 they had to make up that shortfall they did make up that shortfall so it's the you know it's not you know it's i'm sure based on you know the efforts of of ms mabry um I'm just concerned about the reliance upon the city and the assumption that the city is going to foot the bill and foot the bill on an annual basis and why it would be for the station on 6 and, you know, these other, you know, nonprofits that have these huge missions also and, you know, why they have to go through the community impact funding. I've just... there's a lot of demand on on the city's budget and you know these nonprofits they I don't know any other way of saying this they need to continue to find their you know find you know their funding I understand costs go up and And funds get cut. Well, they've been able to make up the shortfall before.

Well, that wasn't true when Lane... bremner was alive she wasn't able to make up the shortfall and she was very distressed about it and then she died so um that kind of left um aaron with with the problem of of how to how to maintain the level of service maintain the you know, keep feeding the number of clients that needed to be fed, and you can only feed so many with, you know, a finite number of dollars. And while I'm not sitting here making an argument that it's the only important nonprofit, in terms of nonprofits, it's... It's right at the top. Not only is this service connected to everyone's best interest, it's connected to our residents' well-being in a way that most other nonprofit organizations that we work with are not.

It's significant. I guess my response to that is I wish other people would feel that way. It's $90,000 from Cottonwood. It's zero from the county. It's $5,000 from Camp Verde.

All right, Kirsten, we cannot vote tonight. No. So how do we come to some consensus here?

It would be very convenient for me if you could basically all give an opinion on a similar amount and a yay or a nay, like, oh, no, I'm not okay with it being, and then I could take back the direction of the majority of you. Determine that amount

council if if i could propose something to maybe help find some middle ground and give you some options um based on what mr gaylord has here and and he's highlighted the benefits of the meal program and most of those benefits go towards the meals on wheels program because checking on well-being and that sort of thing i think for with regards to the service if you folks want to fund it you know you you've offered some 80 73 000 or 75 If you said, listen, we're going to fund the cottonwood portion at 12,324, the difference at $7.04 would give you 86,760. If you want to fund it at 85%, that's 73,746. And if you wanted to fund it at 90, which is kind of in between where you folks have been, that's 78,084. And then at some point, if we're gonna work towards reducing it, we can just use that percentage and then base it on the cost and that gap that they've had. So we account from future contracts for the costs going up and it gives us a figure that council can agree on. Just throwing that out there. Again, you folks can decide on what you want, but I was just trying to get to what I'd heard from folks to kind of give us some direction without a formal vote.

i'm trying to compromise with from the place from which i started and what other council members are saying and i'm saying 80 000. so um if if that's objectionable okay but um it's it's a it's a five thousand dollar difference

I think to incentivize, Aaron, it's Mayberry, by the way, just so you know. Maybe we just do the, I like the percentage. So that's going to incentivize her to keep the cost down, I think, and try to get other funding. So I'm good, instead of like $80,000, $90,000, whatever, we do the percentage of what that is each year.

Yeah, he just explained. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I agree with you, doing it that way. Well, yeah.

that's fine council member wilden and mayor shaw it would be much easier for us right in the finance department if you said we want to fund 85 or 75 of the shortfall of meals on wheels okay and we just you pick a percentage and we'll just base that fee on that percentage so if you could agree on a percentage right

So the 85 was 73,000 in change, and the 90% was 78,000 in change, respectively.

90. 90%.

What would 75% be? 75? I think you'll make me go back and do math again, Vice Mayor.

I don't have my calculator in front of me. He does.

If we're using percentages, we can use a lesser percentage next year. But really, I think it's really important that we kind of try to keep funding up and going.

75% would be $65,000.

Well, I would support 85%. Say that again?

She said 85%. 85%.

Yeah, I'm good finally again. 85 I'm good.

I can support 85% for year 1.

Yeah, I'm fine with that. Is there can we have staff work on the phase down?

When we bring back because council has to approve the agreement, we will include in that as a new business item, a recommendation for a phase down and then counts can give us direction as appropriate.

Thank you for interpreting what I said. Sure.

I think I have the direction that I need to bring back to you a service agreement with. Basically, an 85% recovery of their costs that they.

have as a shortfall thank you thank you okay i would like to adjourn yeah and i would like to second that all in favor all right all right