Information Technology Committee - Regular Meeting

Anyway, we do have a quorum present. I will officially call this meeting to order and we'll begin with a roll call. Um, Amar Clark here. Bob Carroll, not here or not yet. Uh, Bob Hassinger, I'm here. Lucas Remlard here

and David Robbins is present. So at the moment we have no attendees on Zoom but so but we will proceed into our agenda for this evening. Uh this may be a relatively short meeting but we'll see. Anyway, our first agenda item as always is public input. um don't have any Zoom attendees who might offer us some public input, but if any one of us has a matter that could properly be called public input because it's not otherwise on the agenda, um now would be a time to bring that up. And if not, we'll move to our next agenda item. up, excuse me, update from town administrator and uh yeah, the town administrator has not communicated to me that he has anything that he wants to bring to the attention of the committee. So, we can move right along to our next agenda item where we actually have at least a few things to talk about and that is AI tools. And I see that I will I will stop speaking for just a moment while Bob Carol gets himself into the meeting.

I am in. Doesn't look like video is working though. Uh why oh maybe if I plug the camera into the right brick it'll work. You have too many bricks. Yeah, there we go.

I see a picture now. Thank you. And so for for the record, Bob Carroll has now joined the meeting. So we have all five of our committee members present. And uh Bob Carroll, for your benefit, I've just reported that uh we nobody had public input. Item number one on the agenda. The town administrator didn't have any did not have anything that he wanted to bring to our attention. item number two on the agenda. So, we're on item number three, AI tools. And following up on our discussion at the January meeting, I touched base with the town the town administrator's office and to find out one of the questions we asked at the last meeting was well, what AI tools does the town currently have access to and may or may not be using. So the short answer is um they have access to co-pilot as part of their office subscription.

William William said as far as he knows no one actually has used it yet. Okay,

that's part of the answer is that's one of the tools they do have access to. Another part of the answer is the as far as William knew anyway, the planning department and the recck department have both used chat JPT. So that's kind of the extent of what the administrator's office knew about AI being you available and used in the town. I did follow up further specifically with Fiona because she used she described in in our planning board meeting last week. We had four sets of minutes that were pretty clearly produced by AI and Fiona said yes, she used AI to produce that. I followed up with Fiona yesterday to get a little bit more a little bit more depth on that. You know, what AI tools did she use? and she explained that she produced those minutes by having YouTube produce a transcript from the meeting video.

The the YouTube transcript she puts into a word document. She then uploaded that to chat GPT along with the meeting agenda and had chat GPT produce the minutes. So if you if you if you want to see I mean Bob Hassinger I know you've you you've seen it of course you were in the meeting when we talked about that but uh if you want to see an example of how Fiona used GPT to produce minutes that's those minutes are available on the in the agenda and minutes section of the town website. They were for four meetings in 2022. who I don't remember the dates off the top of my head and my overall impression of that was that the minutes were kind of bare minimum. They had the essential information in who was there, who made motions and you know the actions on the motions and it you know there there was no detailed discussion of the substance of a lot of what was discussed dis discussed. So that's somewhat less than I would have liked to have seen in the minutes, but it's an example. One example Fiona did also say that she had tried out a tool called Did I write that down in my notes

called Where did I write that? Um, oh, it's called Clerk Minutes. She said she wasn't happy with the way it worked and it it's a subscription tool and she she concluded it wasn't worth the price of subscription. So that's really the extent of what I Oh, and I think William said that Wreck uses chat GPT largely to produce some communication materials probably some combination of, you know, images and and text, you know, announcements and that type of thing. So that's that's pretty much the extent of what I could get out of what the town currently has for AI tools. That's really no surprise with co-pilot and GPT are sort of obvious. Nobody mentioned Grock or Gemini or Claude. The other ones that I whose names I can think of off the top of my head and say is it's not exactly something that I've gained a whole lot of knowledge of in detail, but that's that's what I got from the town so far. Any questions about that? I have one more one more AI topic to bring up.

So, I know that the um because it's budget season, right? And there's been a lot of churn and burn about the municipal budget and of course the schools, which is 70 plus or 80% of the spend, right? Um and I know that um that was produced with this story doc, an AI tool. Um,

if you guys can you open up because I can paste the link and I just paste it in here. Yeah, we've got Yeah, we don't have the Zoom chat function enabled, but the Q&A function is there, right? But I can't pasted it. Well, what are we trying to accomplish? Because we're panelists, I think. Okay, we're supposed to be answering questions rather than creating questions. That's probably it.

I can just send it to you guys in an email. I mean, it's just a link, Bob, to the school. Um it's actually um web enabled, but you can download it the budget book that was produced and that was um produced using an AI tool story doc. And it looks like a lot of the districts use this because if you go like Westboro and some of the others, they all have the same um look and feel, right? And the same content, just you know, different art, different graphic assets, those kinds of things. But you can you can kind of tell. Yeah. Oh,

so the schools are using it. You know, I I'm guessing that Jay did this or Jay and his um surrogates, right? Um so they're using it is is the point. Yeah, it's probably worth worth following up with uh with with Jay to you because you know the answers I get when I when I talk to Evan and William, it's all you. about everything but the schools. So yeah, I didn't it did I didn't have the time or I didn't think it didn't occur to me that I should touch base with you find out from Jay and his office, you know, what AI tools they use.

Yeah. and they have to be more even on board with this um you know and I I know they are a Google shop and there's a lot of um utility and function built in so that when all these kids submit you know everything in Google Docs um all their coursework right all their evidence all their essays all that stuff um you know the teachers need to the instructors teachers need to be able to sniff out you know where is this produced by AI and Um, I know Google has lots of editing. It actually shows you like how long it took you to write passages and all. And it it has really neat, you know, editing and tracing um, capabilities. So, I don't know if they're how much of that they're doing. Obviously, at the college level, they do a lot more, but um, yeah, I'd be surprised if they weren't in this day and age, right?

Because that's that's got to got to be a big thing. Yeah, I think that would be worth u getting more information about how our schools are using AI so that you know I'm sure we will be continuing the AI discussion at our next meeting. So, right, we we we can dig in. Bob H.

Yeah, I had some questions. I was there Monday night and I was supposed to vote in favor of these famous minutes that have been done. First I had heard about it and done by AI. Um, no ex what Dave just told was would have been helpful, but no. You say that they let uh YouTube produce a a um a written uh Yeah, it generates subtitles and then you can export them.

It says it generates the subtitles and then you can export that as a as text, right? And if you use um the whole stack for Google, right, YouTube is owned by Google. You can just feed the link to the video right in and Gemini will spit out the minutes or whatever you want. And there are some town people that have their like own newsletters and their own, you know, journals, I guess you would call them, and they send it out from time to time. And all they do is they take the links from the you know whether it's planning board select board they feed it into Gemini does its thing and then they send that out as you know news right

what I'm getting to worst thing I'm getting to is just how reliable figuring out who said what is. Um because I'm, you know, I'm signing voting for minutes that say who know somebody said something. This is from four years ago. It turns out there was some kind of a mention of getting a a Freedom of Information Act request for the minutes of a 100 meetings. Now, I don't know whether that was a 100 planning board meetings or others, but but the town apparently got that and this was a start.

So, the town received this request, Bob. Well, Dave heard it as well as I did on Monday night. Yes, Fiona said that the town had received something like 100 Freedom of Information requests. Um, I don't recall that she said that those requests were all for minutes or they may have been for some other documents. Um, off the top my head, I would guess it it seems unlikely that they would be looking for 100 the minutes of 100 planning board meetings, but

that's a lot. That seem seems like uh seems like a lot. But in any case, yeah, and what you said, Bob, one of the things you said, Bob, reminded me that the minutes the planning board had for review did not have anything written within the minutes to say that they were generated by AI. And I think it was Bob that when when the board approved the minutes, Bob Bob asked Fiona to make sure that the minutes included in notation that they were produced with AI.

Yeah. Um see the problem is that uh at least for planning board we get sued. First thing people do is get minutes. They bring back minutes from 20 years ago sometimes. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. So, that's a good um

I'm the only one I voted the same way 20 years ago that they're I voted for the what they're suing us about. Um they didn't like the way they were hoping to find I was the only one, you know, that was in both cases on the board in both cases, but they they seem a little disappointed to have discovered that I was consistent over 20 years for different cases. Anyway, I'm I'm kind of concerned and obviously interested in how this is working. Um, it somewhat depends on now on my other hat, the cable, um, because they're the ones who are doing the recordings. at least of of the meetings. Uh well, that's that's where most of the minutes are that's where most of the meetings being access through through access. So, um we need a robust and long-term storage uh there.

Yeah. So, I guess two things there to unpack, right? one is um with the freedom of information requests um whether it's state government or or municipal um with those requests you can request you know funding right you can charge for those so um you know the cost essentially the cost to produce it because they're not free to do someone's got to go do it there's you know copy uh assets that have to be used that sort of thing so you can charge um so it may be a revenue opportunity for the I I don't think that's the planning board's decision or anybody else.

No, no, but it's definitely a policy thing. If someone's, you know, really I my impression we're not charging now. Although been a time when there was some charges,

but that's one way to discourage that behavior, right? You know, gauge the seriousness because if people can get free stuff, they'll certainly do it. And then the other thing is um you know I think probably especially planning board is and definitely select board most egregious example where they probably should if they're going to do this and you have people already doing it like Fiona they should get council to weigh in and draft some kind of policy you know because yeah I could definitely see and you know you can't slough it off and say you know it's uh Gemini's fault or Claude or whomever cover, right? I mean, at the end of the day, Fiona owns this. So, you know,

yeah, this sort of leads me to the next AI topic I have for you guys. And that is it was it came to my attention via Amber that the MMI, the MMA, Mass Municipal Association was putting on a webinar today about on on the topic of creating clear guidelines for responsible AI implementation. And I sat in on that and it was very interesting. I'll I'll tell you more about it in just a moment, but uh it that was the third in a series of MMA webinars on AI. So, I took the time this afternoon to view the other two and one of them was kind of not quite sure. It was perhaps overly detailed at least for an introduction to AI. It was a it was a I think it was a consulting company that had de developed a particular approach to uh composing re uh prompts for AI. So they get you know they went into a fair amount of detail on on you know what to do, what not to do and and and and why there are certain things you should do. That was less interesting to me than the other one which was that was done February 25th and the title of that was AI in action practical use cases for municipal departments. So both of them, the practical use cases and the guidelines and policy I thought were particularly interesting because they, you know, they the the one went

through a lot of examples of, you know, people staff from three different municipalities explaining what they've used AI for and how they've used it and even went so far as to to demonstrate how how they asked CHAP GPT to generate a particular report. And the uh the policy one I thought was particularly interesting because they had a lot of a lot of good guidance good information about the kinds of things that you should keep in mind that that you might want to write an AI policy for. So there that that kind of hits close to home to what we've been some things we've been talking about policies in general. But given that the town is sort of in the early stages of adopting AI, um it's probably a good time to spend more time thinking about and and maybe trying to push forward some AI policy and guidelines and and things like that. And some of the things they emphasized, I couldn't even couldn't even begin to go through everything. I would I would recommend that if you're at all interested, you know, go to the MMI, go to mma.org, or find their webinars and you'll find these um among the many other webinars they have. But it's it's worth worth seeing those and getting getting a better sense of what they talked about. But some of the important points that I brought that that stuck in my mind had to do with things like the importance of always always always not trusting the AI output. always reviewing, always proofreading, always checking the facts and and anything any anything that the town produces if it was produced with with AI with the assistance of AI um or or entirely by AI, but they they really try they discourage you strongly

from just taking what AI produces and running with it because they all they they emphasize the human they emphasize the importance of reviewing and vetting and validating everything. They emphasized the importance of noting on the document that it was produced with the assistance of AI. And they had all sorts of dos and don'ts like don't even you don't ever put into co-pilot or jet jet GPT or whatever. Don't ever put any information that's nonpublic. No, don't don't don't include any personal personally identifiable information. Don't include anything that is covered by HIPPA. Just don't even put it in to your prompt because that potentially exposes it for the entire world. I've read read recently something about one of the AIS uh basically being able to through prompts that had nothing to do with the original the data but it managed to reproduce some data that was submitted to it in what somebody thought was pretty confidential. So there's there there was a good it was there was a an excellent discussion I think of uh the things that a town would need to keep in mind when using AI.

Yeah. And the things that immediately come to mind is the executive sessions, right? Yes. Because that would all be discoverable. Sorry, Bob. I I think your hands up.

Do executive sessions. Um what was I? Oh um well I the field and and the AI tools are evolving so quickly. I think uh probably some of the documentation should be we on such and such a date we used such and such chat DP GTP 5.137 a um and we gave the following inputs uh and and so on um because when you go back a couple years from now it'll be totally different that things are just you know changing I just watched I don't know what it was they had stepped through I don't know eight evolutions of chat GTP uh through working working they they listed every version from whatever 0.1 to whatever next year's version is as part of what they have been doing and the different changes Yeah. Related to that that fact that AI is constantly evolving, the the the one guy on the policy uh webinar, he was the IT director in Nantucket and he said they've been they they don't consider their policy or their policy guidelines document really stable yet because things are changing so rapidly. He said I I forget when he said he started it within the last year or so, but he said he's up to version six. He's about to be, you know, in in couple months he's going to be issuing version seven. You know, he his point was that yeah, this

stuff is changing rapidly and you need to you need to keep your policy and guidelines up to date and to be able to uh deal with those constant changes. But that point, your point Bob is well taken that that if you used an AI tool to produce a document, it's kind of important to identify which version of the tool, which tool and which version were used, maybe even the date. I don't know whether the model underneath moves during Well, certainly the data set that it's trained on would need to know that, right?

Yeah. So I I think maybe the suggestion would be I don't know if we want to debate this or get a motion but you know until we the town can adopt a policy that maybe the recommendation is to not use it at all. Right? Because otherwise the you know the horse will be out of the barn kind of thing, right? And you know, we know people are going to start to use this and if we've got people already doing minutes with that and they haven't really, you know, followed any standards of leading practices or we don't know how they're doing it. That's not good, right? So, I don't know. I mean that's that's how we handled it at work until you know this was a year or two ago until we could adapt some policies and standards on the use and then also ensure that the data and you know the the um tool that we use just stayed inside our firewall network and you know only used our data and everything was you know copacetic as far as uh the guardrails, right, of it. So, um, again, it's just too much at risk that

and that that reminds me another of another thing they mentioned in one of these webinars or maybe both of them that that if you if you're just using the free version of say J chat GPT anything you send in to a prompt just goes it's it it's becomes part of its entire base of training data. Right.

Whereas you can use a paid version and maybe the enterprise version of Copilot does this. I haven't haven't tried to follow up in that thought, but I think it was mentioned more than once that if you use the paid version of CH GPT and they have different, you know, different levels for different sizes of organizations, but in any case, the paid version will um I can't think what the word is will will keep your organization's data out out of the general training data set. So your your organization's data will be available for queries from within that group but they won't they won't escape the the confines which is an important consideration for someone like Grafton or any any municipality really any organization if you want if you think about it that they you have a wealth of knowledge in their document base you like oh in the case of planning board for examples we of, you know, the history of all the all the planning board decisions that have been issued. And what that could be useful as as data for your AI tool to draw upon, but you you you want that to be confined to your organization.

Yeah. I just see the whole thing as fraught with risk, that's all. Yeah. Yeah, until you know there's some really good policy standards and guard rails around it all.

Yeah. Would it be worth our while? Obviously, we can't do that tonight, but it would would it be worth our while for our next meeting to propose sort of for lack of a better term, I would call it an interim AI policy and guidelines. Just just some some basics that you know, so some something I don't know basic, something minimal, something that, you know, we think the town should uh adopt while further further trying to develop it. Uh the other the an example might be the again going back to this webinar this afternoon the guy from Nantucket um said that you they have their AI policy is is available on their their municipal website. That's one example one I think he said that he he said or somebody said that they had found a few municipalities with AI policies but uh yeah it this given the rapid growth of AI and the the more attention that's being paid for it and that the fact that people want to start using it um

well they are going to I mean If they can get if they can get at it, they're going to use it. Yeah. So, so, um I I think it could be appropriate for us to propose at least a a minimal AI policy. Some, you know, some of the most essential things that, you know, we think everybody needs to pay attention to and try to get that in in place as soon as possible. Bob,

I agree. Maybe we should say don't do it until we figure this thing out. Um but um I would really feel good about having Evan and andor William chat with us a little bit about this to plot very much of a path forward. Unfortunately, they're just a tiny bit busy right now. Yeah.

And I think that was going to be my suggestion, too, Bob. Let's talk to those guys first, you know, before we come out guns blazing with policy or some statement. I I I think that Dave could pass on them tonight. we're concerned and and we would really like to get on this with them, right, if possible. And you can you can use the example of the schools that it's out there on the web already.

Yeah. Yeah. So, our our next meeting would normally be scheduled for April 8th, and I don't quite know how that's going to fit with Evan and Williams schedule as far as doing budget work. I I kind of think most of the hard work is going to be done by then, but I don't know for sure. But if you know so, so if and I think taking taking the suggestion that we really this is something that I think ideally we would like to discuss with both Evan and William

and conversation but I think we should have yeah they they could know that it doesn't necessarily have to be a law of conversation unless they

really want at least some connection with them. Um I don't think that they'll be done with the budget until the votes are counted on the ballot. Well, that this is this is true that it won't things won't be completely nailed down until after all relevant votes are in and counted, however that plays out. But yeah, Amari, your hands up.

Yeah. Um, I absolutely think that we need to have buyin from the TA and assistant TA on this. Um, and I think that I don't know that that necessarily precludes us from starting to put together some ideas. Um, not necessarily a formal policy, but you know, at least come to the table when we have that conversation with them, come to the table with some, you know, some ideas about what is what would be contained inside such a policy. Um my my current employer is extremely security conscious and um we're having these types of conversations right now and there's a lot there's a whole lot to unwind with this stuff right um because LLMs chat GPT you know and that type of thing are are one form of artificial intelligence but there's so many other types um that are out there as well right so I think that there's an importance to look at all of the different types, right? And then maybe identify some use cases where things are um permissible with certain guidelines put on them, right? Um and and maybe there's some an education component that's uh that's tied into that as well.

Yeah. I am reminded that one thing I forgot to mention about what the town has access to. Our subscription to Zoom includes Zoom. What do they call it? Zoom AI companion. Companion. Yeah.

Yeah. Zoom AI companion. Um, I don't know that anybody's using any of the AI companion tools. I took a quick look at what those a AI companion tools were and for the most part they didn't strike me as being something that we would necessarily be chomping at the bit to use. But it's still

Yeah, I was going to say I've used the the meeting minutes functionality that's built into Zoom at a former employer and I'm sure it's gotten better, but it was it was it was decent. Um, I'm facilitating tons and tons of meetings in my current role right now, um, for the executive committee at my work and I definitely use chat GPT to generate minutes. Um, and I've got, you know, a whole project built out where it understands exactly what format those need to be in, what types of things I want to include. Um, and then, you know, the the for exact formatting for the action items. Because if you don't do that, what ends up happening is you get these meeting minutes and they're different every time, right? It's just kind of it changes how it how it does it because the prompt wasn't exactly the same or whatever. So now I've got it built out to the point where it knows exactly what I want and I just say here's the file with the transcript. Please generate me meeting minutes. And I don't have to tell it anything more than that because it already knows everything about, you know, how I like my meeting minutes formatted.

Yeah. So that and that takes a little bit of time to develop. Yeah, it does. That that touches on another the another point that was made during one of those webinars I looked at is that you know the you need to tell it enough in the prompt so that it understands what you're asking for. Mhm.

And when you find when you find a prompt that works well, you know, you kind of re reuse it to the extent that it's I mean it's there's all obviously there's some variation in in you know from minutes example while the transcript is different every time but you know you you you developed a uh essentially a a template or a set of instructions explaining this is what I want the minutes to look like. Here's the transcript. Go do it. Yep. And if you develop that well enough, you get you get decent results pretty much every time, right?

Yeah. You think we should ask uh the AIS to give us an outline of a policy? Definitely.

Yeah. You know, one thing I could do as a followup to this meeting. Um, I can sit down certainly, I've got plenty of time during the day. I can I can I can try to find a time when you I can spend a few minutes with Evan and William just sort of kind of bring them up to speed on what we've talked about and some of the ideas uh and and try to find a time that works for them to meet with us. you know, our our usual meeting is the second Wednesday of the month, but there may be a there may be a time that would work better for them. We can kind of you get given sort sort of the and I think there's a growing sense of urgency of trying to trying to get the town to have a at least some some workable policy and guidelines. And yes, that will evolve, but we we need to start somewhere. So, you know, as soon as we can get get together, us the five of us with Evan and William to talk about that, the better. But yeah, I can I can I I can get a get a hold of them between now and our next meeting to, you know, find a way to get that all set up.

Sounds great. Awesome. it so. Yeah, make it so. Yes, it was it it was it just turned out to be very timely for tonight's meeting that I I learned about these webinars and I had opportunity to sit in on them. I do not know if any of the other town staff, even though these are they're through MMA, so Evan and William and everybody had a chance to be aware of them, but whether they were able to participate in any of them, I don't know.

You you'll be uh emailing links where No, I have no idea how to get an M MMA. Yes, I will I will email links to the uh webinars and I think I haven't followed the link to the Nantucket policy but that that was mentioned in one of the webinars. I will email links out to you guys. I tend to think of Nantucket as a kind of a fringe case, but uh maybe they're going, you know, I've heard of them coming up before with stuff like Yeah. Well, he did say there there was at least one element of that that was apparently pretty unique to to Nantucket and that was in a discussion of HIPPA requirements. Nantucket operates a

a facility of some kind that's subject to HIPPA, but he pointed out that they're the staff that work there are well-versed in HIPPA requirements. So that they're un they they almost certainly know better than to put anything HIPPA related, anything protected by HIPPA into any of their AI tools. The question was raised, well, do we have do any of these AI tools have controls that will help to block the use of protected data? And basically the answer was no. It's really up to the users to up to the users to know what they should avoid posting into the AI tool.

That is such a moving target. Yeah. I mean, you know, claude a little matter about it right now in government. Yeah. That's why it's would be important to get out in front of this and prohibit it, right? Um until, you know, before something bad happens, until it can get sorted out, right?

Yeah. I mean, to an extent, you know, users should already know better than to postp identifiable information to the internet. But what they may not be aware of is sending it to Claude or Grock or Chat GPT or Copilot. That's the same thing as putting it out there on the internet. So anyway, I I will follow up with Evan and William and see if I can't get us scheduled to meet with them and discuss this topic further. Okay, sounds good.

Anything else on that? If not, uh the next agenda item also as a followup from our discussion at the last meeting, the uh question was raised, well, shouldn't we be or couldn't we have our meeting materials things like the documents that we discuss? I mean, couldn't we have those posted on the town website? And the answer is yes. Uh Amber is willing to post it. What I did I I made up the for tonight the meeting packet wasn't much just the agenda and the draft minutes but I had and Amber said she could do this for us every time is uh I'll hand her hand her a meeting packet a PDF with all the documents that we're going to be dealing with and she she posted that as meeting packet I think she called it you know right next to our agenda on the agenda and minutes sides. So it' be just like select board, AHT, plan board, all everybody. Okay.

Yep. Up to now, I hadn't been doing that partly because I wasn't sure who in town hall would be able to do that for us since we don't have any staff support that's assigned to us. you know, some of these boards have have staff that are basically are officially the support for the board. But, uh, yeah, and Amber said she could do that. So, uh, from now on, we will, uh, have our meeting materials posted to the website. I always, I'm kind of a packrat, so I always keep that stuff on my computer. I've got it going back more years than I can remember. Uh, and it's sufficiently well organized. I can usually find what I'm looking for, but you know, it's it's good to have that on the website.

Yeah. And it's searchable. Yes. Not all of it's necessarily interesting to anybody but us, but we'll make sure it's all there. The transparency, pardon me, transparency. Transparency. Yes. Is that an example? So, same as cable.

That's that's that agenda item. The next one is review and approve previous meeting minutes, which I sent around for the pre meeting. Did I hear something? Motion by Bob H. Seconded. Seconded by Omar. Any discussion? Hearing none. Roll call. Bob Carroll. Hi. Omar Clark. I. Bob Hassinger. I. Lucas Rebelard. I.

And David Robbins votes I. Motion carried unanimously. Um, I had on the agenda, uh, correspondence. I don't know that we've received any correspondence, but I'll keep that sort of a as a standing item on the agenda just in case we ever do receive correspondence. Possible executive session. We have no reason to do that. Bob, um, I was just thinking, um, if we can people send to us the way they can to the planning board, you know, a place on the website Yes. Okay. So then anything we get that way should be part of our correspondence.

That would be correspondence. It should be it should be accessible. Yeah. In the course. Yes. Yes. I would include that in the meeting packet. Right. Okay. Ajourn. So since we're adjourned now, um word is Lucas that um you've pulled papers. Wow. I guess word gets around fast. I actually heard a motion to adjurnn. I didn't hear a second. Oh, second. Bob C. I. Bob H. I am Lamar. I Lucas I.

And Dave. Motion carried unanimously. We are adjourned.