City Council - Regular Meeting

meeting for the Chattanooga City Council March 17th, 2026. Can I get a motion on our minutes from the 3rd of March, please? So move second. Okay. Uh we are going to let the minutes stand without objection. Thanks everybody. Okay. We have a lot of council business to work on today. So um let's go ahead and start um with Phil giving us some updates on special exceptions, permits, what our options are here. Um, looks like you've got some things to pass out. I do. Karen has been very nice about making copies for everyone here. Thank you.

What types of things she thought would be uh just something for us to discuss here regarding the strategic planning aspect of liquor stores.

Yes. And y'all last time around were saying that you might want to deal with some other items here that are not necessarily special exceptions, but things that you might want to consider uh that the planning agency would bring to you as opposed to just making a decision itself because as you remember the provisions for special exceptions and the code is uh I guess was not not there. So, we are trying to make sure at least there is a requirement in in a uh just a setting uh that we had for um locations in the the city for liquor stores to have uh some type of action by the council. But that's really the only reference that there was in the code. This uh handout that I've given you is what was looked at in connection with the the one I guess case that you had before you last week here. And these are the types of items that were included on that list. I guess the question becomes uh do you need to have uh any other uh items that you want to look for in an area regarding a liquor store and whether you think that that would be something that would be compliant with the I guess the uh public safety in an area here. What types of offenses would you like to look at in connection with those cases? So, we got um drug offenses, uh theft offenses here included last time around and some of those are and some of them are not related to liquor store operations. So, that's that's the question about what would you like to have in addition.

So, council, just a reminder, um as a council, we have agreed that we do want to maintain um the the requirement of of council approving certain types of uses through special exceptions permits. So, our goal with this conversation and what what Phil has been researching is how might we strengthen this so that it is less susceptible to being um challenged successfully in a court of law. We want this to be a stronger So, Phil, if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is here's a whole list of different things that we might add to our requirements for the review. Um, a lot of those that Councilwoman Dotley had done research on for for one that came um in district 7. So is this kind of a talk through that and maybe check the boxes

do a check the box on which ones you think are important which ones not in the operation of a liquor store. Uh the other things that we also discussed, we had a pretty lengthy discussion with the planning people and the police department folks yesterday here concerning this matter. And uh do you want to keep your spacing the way that you've got it? Because we reduce the spacing requirements down to just 200 feet. And does that 200 feet work with what you're looking for on here? We have other different types of establishments here in the city that have uh higher distance restrictions than that. But if you want to have that, the distance restrictions did not apply in the urban areas right downtown to begin with under the formbbased code. If it was under the formbbased code, those uh 500 foot restrictions were not applicable. But if if you want to consider other areas, then that's possible uh that it makes it easier to get your numbers at least that you're looking at about what what is the crime like in the area. You have to be careful about going too large in size to the area as well because if you do, you may be looking at other uh locations that may be completely away from u the area you're trying to protect.

Okay. So, those are those are some of the things we were looking at. And so as we um strengthen our requirements for these types of applications, we can then use that as a pattern for others that we consider related to vape shops and things like that. Correct. Yes. Okay. All right. Council Councilman Elliot, when you're talking about spacing, are you talking about in between two of the same

two of the same two of the same type of businesses or certain businesses that you think may need to have protection from that? the the argument always comes out in the regard to schools, churches and uh playground type areas for kids on there. So, uh what what do you have and um we uh need to be at least looking about what is your desire as a council in in protecting locations from uh areas here. And this is a little bit different than a bar, too. You need to be aware of that because normally unless somebody is cracking open that a half pint of whiskey when they go out of the liquor store, they're going to be taking that a little bit further away. But the question becomes, is that something in your community that can result in more crimes or more concerns for your your public?

Councilman Henderson. Um well, two questions. One, Phil, what's the distance between in I believe in our um the pawn shop? Yes. What is I think it's 500. I was thinking 500. You say a thousand. Is it a thousand? Financial services,000. I know that adult oriented establishments is 500 ft. Okay. Uh for some reason I was thinking that the pawn shops were a little bit further which I thought if that if you know if we've got an ordinance that already states Mhm.

that amount it I don't understand the difference on here. You said changing back to 500 ft space and it's currently 200 ft. But then you've also got change distance requirement between liquor stores at 1,000. So it so this you're saying the options are returning back to 500 or it could be a,000 ft. It could be depending on what what y'all think would be appropriate. And and I have more and more distance requirement. Yes. Where right now we're at 200. We could go back to 500 or a thousand depending on I I don't know why I thought the pawn shops were maybe a thousand but

777. We could do any number any number that is let's pick some arbitrary number so that maybe something arbitrary and capriccious capric we'll throw in capriccious would be the most known just kid if if you make it where you can't have one in the entire city sometimes that may be a problem if they're legally allowed under state law. Well, let's face it. I need to be able to go to Jacks on my way home. I don't I'm trying to get rid of them. Not here in district two. That's not what district is. I'm looking for alternative financial districts right now. Yeah. So, to clarify for that, alternative financial districts sounds like would include or services would include pawn shops, check into cash. Yes.

Which shop? Well, and maybe that's what I'm referring to. Predatory lending. just I said pawn shops, but I think it's more predatory land and checking the cash and which I think was those things. Smart move on. And then are are there any cities that do um a ratio? You know, they they cap it per capita that we can currently the ratio you have here in the city based upon the most recent changes to liquor stores is uh is it not every 3,000 people here in the the city.

So, uh we were counting that up. We were trying to make sure how many you would have your number capped at at this point. And based on the current population, we believe that is roughly 60 liquor stores within the city of Chattanooga. And that number went up from I think before it was li limited to like 54 or so. But you you actually have up to 60 liquor stores if it's one per every 3,000 people. Now, where is that figure coming from? That comes from your current uh provisions in the chapter five of the city code and it's 5109. And how many do we have? Katherine, what was your latest count?

All right. As of 2024, there were 42. Okay. And and the the one per 3,000 would be a cap at right now 60. There's been additional presents 2024. Yeah. Can Can we do could So, can we do both? Can we place a distance requirement and a per capita maximum? Can we do both? You could. Yes. Sounds like we already have that, right?

You do. You have It's actually 5108. Currently, it says a liquor store can be located within 200 feet from the nearest property line of a place that is a recreational park, place of worship, school, uh, learning center or daycare center or other liquor stores. That plus we have the per capita, but we already have the per capita as well. And your per capita limitation, where is it here? Yeah, it's under 5126. Yeah. And it's limited to one per 3,000 Okay. people in this the city. So that's both of those are in chapter five of the city code. Okay. Okay. So really the only thing we're talking about amending then would be the distance okay requirement. Do we have any counciloman Dley?

Yes. So okay you sent it in the chat. Okay. So for uh for this um hopeful legislation, so when it goes through RPA, will they be adding that to the um when they give us the the plan for it or the whatever the application when they submit their uh recommendation to us, you know, recommend to approve or deny, is that something that will be in their like is the are these things are are they going to be in that um

should be in their packet application? And that's the reason that you'd need to have an amendment here to the section here under liquor stores here to actually say that whenever you're submitting your application, it'll include something like this. Okay. And then that information also will then be shared with that business owner as well to make them aware that hey, just be aware that these things are going on. Correct. Okay.

So with this, if I understand Councilwoman, I think um legal is providing us and planning is providing us with this list. Okay. This would be kind of all of the different things and we could make some choices about do we want all of them? what is the what is the if then you know um so that we can can be as specific as possible like for example when I see plane Chattanooga like it has to be in accordance with that would be one of the yes like if you're not then you know what I mean right so it's a clear um if you have code violations then don't even come to us let's get that together right then these numbers might be a little a little trickier is kind of what I see like we need some specifics I think

so we need to put a like a time frame on it like so in the last like I for the one I just did it was in the last year right within a one mile radius these are the this is what I was looking for half mile yeah so this is the thing I was looking for so is that something that's how we you know that what we're trying to do is that kind of thing I think that's what we're trying to do so that then we would be able to say look not with within a half mile radius if you exceed x threshold this is not a approp if you exceed the average crime rate right in the city, this is not an appropriate location. Like the more we dial it in, right? The tighter the tighter we get, the more specific, right? And less uh subjective, right? Because less subjective is better,

right? Because the idea is not we're not looking at your individual we are looking at your individual business, but we're looking at your individual business in in perspective to the entire community because our goal is community and to look at that. So that's okay. I just want to make sure I was kind of leveling what I was Karen's concern on on some things on there is if you have it too wide on there, you may be involving other communities on here. Do you want to get into a situation where it's it's an area that is completely different from the community you're trying to protect? And I don't know. Okay. Alternative financial services. She just sent that to me on here. It says no alternative financial service may be located within 1320 ft of an existing alternative financial service.

Love it. from lot line to lot line and then it can't be within 500 ft of a residential loan zone measure from lot line. So we did that from residential areas and then from other uh existing alternate financial services. Okay. If I remember I think that the mayor's council for women did a lot of work on that and we can also thank council woman Dr. Carol Bur for her strong work on that. What was that? 13 point 1320. Quarter mile. Oh, okay. Oh, way to know how many feet are in a mile. Okay. Okay. Um, Counciloman Bur.

Um, so on this list, does it include Should we include other businesses in the area with similar offenses? Would it include that? So, like a you know, the business across the street has had has checked these boxes. So, can we use that as well? I mean, it's going to be including them if it's within that distance. That depends on, you know, how large of a distance you include. If you have a a half mile or a quarter mile distance on here, anything within that area would be on this list as as the numbers of of things that were in violation. Okay.

Okay. And then that would include like if it was if it was close to a residential community, um residential properties that have had similar issues as well, like repeated burglaries or maybe it's a drug house or maybe it's a Yeah. and and the police department in in doing this, they can make it as compact as you want on there. If you want like a heat signal showing how many of those things that might occur or if you just simply want to show the numbers in an area here and the locations, they can do that. Okay?

And it'll it'll show them based upon those areas. And currently the the the last page you have on there shows the liquor stores at least that are marked out here uh in the our our GIS system that we had. And I don't know if that includes all 60 all 40. Surely this doesn't it doesn't look like it does to me. This about 40 here. Okay. About 40, but you're you're limited right now based upon the most recent provisions in the code to 60 total.

Okay. Um, so council, in terms of next steps, um, might I suggest that, um, each council person send your feedback to Phil and Phil can get us a draft, um, of a new ordinance. Um, perhaps in the in the next two weeks. Sure. Um, so two weeks is affairs.

Yeah. 30 the 31st. So, please um send your feedback to Phil by the 31st um and then legal can work on a draft of an ordinance for us to go ahead and put on the agenda. Does does everybody feel comfortable going ahead and getting it on future considerations? Okay. Um so, Phil, maybe by middle of April if we could be on future considerations, please. We will. And those will be amendments to section 5108 here as to the requirements for liquor stores. Okay. Thank you very much. And once we get that tightened up, the world is our oyster. Yes, council.

Is this something we can also in include the the smoke shops, vape shops, or is this something we want to work on separately? Thank you. You need to do that separately. Get this one tightened up and then we move on to vape shops. Okay. And some of the restrictions are under chapter 11 in the code here right now for business operations. And I believe that's where we had the provisions for alternative financial. So a different part of the code part of the code. This is just simply the liquor part and beer part of the

but you know what I think it would make sense um if we we could work on them in tandem though. So, if you have feedback on vape and smoke shops, let's go ahead and send that also by the 31st so that legal can draft that as well. We just might decide we want to take a look at it. Sure. But if they both could end up on future consideration separately with by midappril, that would feel that would feel like they're making good progress, I think. Okay. Okay. Okay. And that will be reflected in the minutes everybody that Nicole was taking. So one more question. Okay.

Um madam chair um so we will discuss this at the next strategic planning. So the first one in April is that no my intent is that we would provide feedback to uh Phil by the 31st and then he would take all of that his department would take that and craft um an ordinance that we consider. So the next step is the ordinance. both for liquor stores and then knowing that that would become the framework then also for vape shops. Gotcha. Okay. Thank you. Hi. Hello. Okay.

Let's see what's next on our agenda. We have a lot and I' I'd really like us to be able to get to all of it if possible. Okay. Five vote requirement um that we were discussing in the um in the rules the city council rules bill. Did you have any recommendations for us on that? Well, I'm I definitely think that and if it's leave it, that's because great recommendation.

Okay. Uh my my recommendation is going to be that it takes five votes for this body to uh do anything as a body. So, that would be my preference. uh if if you're uh going to have a situation where you don't have a five member uh majority on a matter, then that is the reason that we have language in there that says it would come up the following week and try to get that because it should be the action of the entire council, not just an action of a minority of your group. It should be the entire council that makes a decision because you are the body. Okay. Councilman Elliot,

can you guys provide context again to what we're talking about? Fact, it's been a while since we've talked about this. Yeah. Yeah. The the there was a question about whether you could do something as without having the majority of the council make a ruling on an item or not on there.

And so the practical u the practical question is that we are able to meet when we have a quorum and a quorum is five people. However, within our rules, based on our charter, um you have to have five yes votes or five no votes to move anything up or down. So, in the event that you have a quorum, but you don't have five agreeable votes, effectively, you can't do any business. Nothing can be moved forward. Um but it's a very rare occasion. And to Phil's point, better to have his suggestion as attorney is better to have a full majority and just come back to it.

And that that's currently in your rules that you just adopted here on February the 17th, right? It'll take five yes or five no votes to adopt or defeat any action. So that that's what you got in your current procedures. And if if for some reason there's not enough people, then you can uh come back the following week and try to see if you can get majority at that point in time. that that would normally be required and that's the reason you got nine members on your council so that there is a number that would require a majority and that's that's the reason most bodies usually have an an odd number on there so that it's not just an even number of people on there where you're deadlocked at all times.

We've only had in my five years we've only had it occur one time. But Councilman Ellie u I'm asked this question again. I'm ask more tastefully this time. Council member Bur, I think you got on to me last time for I asked it. What if we have a situation where we have several council members who for whatever reason, illness or otherwise, um are unable to serve or come to council for an exterior period of time. I think last time I may have thrown out a little bit more morbid scenario. Oh, okay. I'm trying to think. What are you talking?

Yeah, it was it was I think the last time was a little bit morbid I think it was hit by a bus. But in that case where you know for whatever reason they may intend on continuing to serve at some point, right? They just may not be able to attend council member council meetings for an extended period of time. Essentially, that could put all business at halt for until they are able to return. So, how do we get around that? Don't all get on the same bus at the same time. or the same. What if all four of us female members were on maternity leave?

That mean perhaps it's a cross that bridge when we come to it. It's it's

it's cross a bridge when you come to it. I still think as a body of individuals, y'all need to make sure you're doing thing where it is a majority of the body that goes forward on any point. If you can either if you can't do that and it gets voted down, it gets voted down. That's the way that would occur. But if if someone is out because of of some type of long-term injury or long-term illness here in connection with that, uh their their voting electorate that put them in office at least uh they've got some authority through recall if they need to if they're going to be out for a longer period of time on there. If there's an issue where a person just can't attend the meeting, we could at least try to work out something potentially as some type of uh I guess appearance on on video since your meetings are all streamed.

That's another option that you could look at at that point in time. Something to make it easier for someone who is incapacitated for a period of time. Still think you need to have a majority of your group be able to make a decision on matters that are important for the whole city. Okay. Vice Chair. Okay. So, Councilman,

I was going to say, you know, in this day and age with um all the electronics and videos that we have, um the person might not be able to come physically, but mentally they are definitely there today. They can handle whatever it is. It could be a broken leg or a hip or I'm not throwing it out there for nobody to get it. So, you know, but I'm just saying you you could do it that way because right now, I mean, the way it runs now, the majority that's here makes the decision, right? Yes, ma'am.

And that that's something you can think about at least in your rules. Do you want to allow appearance um by remote individual if they're ill or something in that regard? You can cross that bridge when you get to it if you want to. Okay. Councilman Henderson. So I I mean that's really sort of a I would classify it as a catastrophic event

something similar to what we experienced during COVID which at that time we were doing uh the zoom but now I think I think it would have to be to do a live spring a live stream or to join by zoom I think it's has to be per uh permitted by Tennessee state law I think right now we have to be in person once the once the pandemic ended

uh ended then and then they ended that. But to to say that they could certainly enact it again and and like I said really kind of your scenario is sort of a catastrophic I would consider catastrophic event. Uh and so I'm sure at that point there could be some measures taken that would allow for some other measure. Councilman Harvey,

if that's a real concern, could we put in a emergency powers clause of some sort? Emergency in case of pandemic um whatever, you know, um some sort of emergency catastrophic last resort type thing to reference. the the emergency power provision in the state law goes to the mayor usually on there. So the mayor can do that and authoriz state of emergency.

So we have so we have a have it within the law we have it covered doesn't necessarily need to be in our rules. Well, I guess what I'm more saying is in the case of okay, say all right, if the mayor declares a state of emergency or whatever, council will meet via Zoom. Council uh person will meet in Zoom if they can't make you know four meetings in a row due to medical, you know, something like that basically to address your concern. Does that make sense? Go ahead. I don't, you know, I'm not I'm not living and dying off of this one. I think it's just one of those things of how do we handle it if it does come up, right?

And you know, I think we have a safety net monetarily. The mayor's office has emergency purchasing power if they need to purchase things in emergency for whatever reason. We cannot meet um one thing that and and Councilman Henderson's correct is a catastrophic event that you know just preparing for what's the worst to come. But in that case, I know we all understand we can't just meet virtually. But if we get to a point where we need to change the rules, but we don't even have enough votes to change the rules, we're stuck with the rules as they are.

And so that that's the only thing, you know, Lord Lord forbid we ever have to encounter this is just what type of loopholes or breathing room do we give ourselves just in case worse comes to worse. Um I I'd like to I'd like Cody you throughout the the uh four meetings for example I just about all four of us females being on maternity leave. Um I don't think any of us are signing up for maternity leave anytime. again. However, what I want to be mindful of is making making service possible. And you know, a 12-week maternity leave is is a very reasonable uh maternity leave for consideration as is, you know, for a hip replacement or some major um medical thing. So, I want us to be sensitive to that and not like walk us into something that makes it more difficult to service people when you've been legal.

Absolutely. Um, so council, might I um might I get a suggestion from the body on if you want to consider um any type of emergency type language or if we want to sit on this for a little bit of level of guidance onward first. I I suggest that we move forward with it. I'm not sure if there's anything else to discuss and I like the idea of referencing maybe um emergency procedures. If there's already something in place, then going ahead and referencing that so we know where to look

in the event that we're unable to vote in person, then we we will request of the mayor, maybe the whoever's authority it is to request of the mayor some emergency procedure to allow us to do a virtual or some something along those lines. So, will you get us some draft language on that, please? Council, does that feel like a a good consensus point? Okay. We got a lot of headshakes. Thank you, everyone.

Um, okay. Next up, um, HR committee. Um, that was an idea brought to us by Councilman Clark. Um, Councilman Clark, would you like to say anything about that for our discussion? Yeah, I think at the time that the recommendation came into place, we were discussing um I think we were discussing some HR related issues regarding some changes and um someone please help me with the terminology. The reversion pay like for instance if you had civil service protection and you step down in a role um and I think is I think there's some current language that we're considering around that. HR is working,

right? And so I wanted to give some context to how that came into play because we used to have an HR committee. As a matter of fact, my uh predecessor um uh councelor Russell Gilbert chaired the HR committee and it was used as a kind of a um a budsman's process for city workers when they come to us with HR issues that are not handled in in the framework of the executive branch. I know Councilman Elliott had at one point discussed that there was a what was the board that you talked about civil service

a civil service board. So anyway, so I'm just wondering uh council if it's a we we often times get HR complaints about HR uh from different Yeah. So true. Um, and I'm just wondering how do we create some type of opportunity or policy to where as we used to hear those cases, I know that at some point some people consider that a slippery slope um to get involved in those HR matters, but I'm wondering if we should uh resurrect this process and maybe create some more guard rails or some more standard operating um procedure. just when city employees come to us with complaints that we have to then talk to the administration about. I don't know. We don't have any processes in place um that I'm aware of as a new council person. So maybe creating HR committee will help us create those frameworks. I'd be curious to hear some thoughts about that. And then uh Mandy, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that if you don't mind. Thank you.

Um Councilman Harvey. Yeah. My my first question is is more for Phil. What is the council's role when it comes to HR? The executive branch is in charge of the employees here that work for the city that end of it. So that normally falls under the mayor in that regard. So that that's the way it's set up in charge. Okay. And and within the egg, there are sex and balances and procedures for that.

Yes. And those egg provisions come before you and y'all adopt those pro provisions by resolution here and that's in the qua judicial authority that this body has to try to protect the employees here for ad from adverse actions of the administration. Okay. So other than the egg, uh are there are there is there a procedure where an employee who was disgruntled or didn't get you know felt like they were not heard? Is there a procedure where they come to us at all? Yes.

I mean they can talk to your their individual council member at any one time because they're a resident of the city of Chattanooga. But I guess his question is is there is there a written procedure like if they're going through the procedural steps in the employee what's the I stand for the employee information guide. Yes. If they're going through those steps outlined in the EIG

is his question is is there a procedure beyond that that involves counsel for us to intervene if that employee has a grievance or feel like that process has failed? No, the the grievance process is in the egg here to go through that body on there and then there's an administrative appeal if there is some concern about their grievance isn't heard correctly and that goes to an outside body that this body has chosen the administrative hearing officer for the state. So that's answered counciloman. Uh I'll yield to council Elliot then if you can come back to council

to add layers to that according to the EIG if somebody and I believe it's termination if someone is terminated they have 10 days to file an appeal with the s our clerk Nicole correct and that then triggers council to send this to administrative hearing officer no administrative law judge yeah administrative law judge Okay. ALJ. Okay. Formerly council used to serve as that hearing body. It did not used to go to ALJ. Council will hear all appeals. But now it goes to ALJ. So we are part of the appeal process to answer your question. Okay. But 10 days after the termination.

Yeah. But only in in termination matters. Correct. Not in grievances. Correct. No. Unless it's actually worked on demotions. I know that because we've had appeals of demotions in the police department that go to an ALJ and ALJ resolves those. Yeah. So, I would say it's appropriate when you're like in I'm going to link back to like collective bargaining. So, if you're affecting someone's pay, their status, or their job security, it could potentially pave to an appeal. Okay.

But a grievance is a grievance is like I don't like the process that was used. And so, that goes and stops at the um step three, I think it is on the grievance. for me. Uh, and that goes before the CHRO or their designate and they have and it's a committee that hears the the grievance review committee that hears the grievance to make a decision. So, we generally pick like when it's somebody if it's a police officer, we pick people from fire because they understand the sworn concept and so we have somebody from leadership from fire sitting on that committee to help make the decision. Okay. Thank you. Um, council.

Yes. Thank you so much and thank you Councilman Elliot for a little bit more clarity. I think that answer a little bit of what I was going to ask, but um and and Phil stated, you know, that's really an executive function. We got a legislative body. So, I like being a part of I mean, it's okay to be a part of the appeal process, but even that in the way that previous councils have turned that into, you know, that just goes up to the, you know, administrative law judge because it's

it's it's almost out of the scope of what we are supposed to be doing. So, I don't uh and we going we're going to hear it anyway. I mean, somebody get mad, they can email us, talk to us, whatever. Um, and my course of action has always been to send it back to send it back to the people that manage it. Uh, so I think that I just I don't I don't think we should get HR matters because we we don't do this every day. We don't I don't I don't go and talk to I don't I'm not over in public works or I'm not in departments every day. I'm out doing something else. So I think that for me just HR committee is not something that I think the council should take a hold to. And even in our previous um in the term before this that was a HR committee that never really met. We never met. We never nothing ever came up. You know it was just kind of a sitting committee. So I don't know. That's just my opinion on it. It's just they elected. They got a mayor, you got a staff, by all means handle it. And if they want to appeal it and they go through the process through the appeals process and this council has decided they didn't want to be the you know the judge or whatever hearing body decided to send it on to an administrative law judge that's fine with me. So that's just my thoughts on it.

I would agree with you council. I I think we have plenty of other work on our plates and I personally like the idea of an administrative law judge who knows how to look at all of that and I don't want to get involved in sunshine law etc. I was just going to give you I was a history major in case you haven't learned that to this point and the the history of all this and in law goes together in that regard because in 1990 there was a change in the form of government and before that change in form of government there were departments that actually ran different groups in the city. So the public works department was a commissioner. The person who ran the public utilities departments for the city was a commissioner as well. Uh the mayor ran the buildings here in city hall and the employees that were going back and forth. So that that was the way the form of government was set up initially and that went away whenever we had a change in district representation here and a legislative district was created to enable the people within the areas here in the city to be able to vote for for y'all. And that that's how that came forward at that point in time. And the quai judicial functions that were available were those vestigages from the earlier time. And they found while they were doing that, there was an issue if more than one council member wanted to fight another council member to get on the panel to be able to help an employee that that was a little bit of an issue there. So that's why the administrative law judge process was developed here and it's worked quite well for the state on here and they have procedures where they hear this all over the state of Tennessee whenever they they deal with those issues. So that's a little bit of the history that was involved in that process.

Thank you for context. Okay. Do you have any other questions? Councilman Elliot. I think the only thing I would add outside of discipline I think we should consider the oversight we have just like every other department you know outside of discipline they also are responsible for so many other things and fun fact HR doesn't do discipline here I think that's where a lot of people are misunderstood if I wrong I didn't hear what you said doesn't what discipline

yeah and so I think that's something that a lot of people are confused by they help walk our managers through the disciplinary and EIG process. They themselves do not pass down discipline, but you know, they're doing everything from benefits to leave to EIG policies. So, that could be a position where we provide some type of council oversight cuz many of those policies we would have to consider. Um, that's just food for thought for us to consider in the future.

Okay. Thank you very much, council. Great conversation. Um, so may I suggest that we table the thought of adding an HR committee for now and we keep an eye on it and then as we as we grow together as a council and and revisit it when the time is appropriate. Yeah, I agree. Okay. Um, okay. Public comment procedure. Councilwoman Bur, could you talk us through um the thought for this? Yeah. Um, I guess it was about a month ago and I at this point I really don't remember what uh what the group was there for but we had a lot of students that were at our council meeting. I think it was ICE.

Was it ICE? Okay. Was it ICE? Okay. Yeah. My we we've moved on, right? We haven't moved on but we have Okay. Um tragedy.

Yeah. Um, and it just it brought to my attention um is there a necessity for some sort of procedure when large groups of especially when large groups of people are here to speak to the council on a topic that we collect information when they come in and ask them to sign in and say, you know, this is what I plan to talk about. I'm here for this particular topic because what it what it did was um and then of course the criticism that we received um whether it was right or wrong, I'm not saying it was right, was that we didn't acknowledge those folks and we didn't give them the opportunity to speak and and the following week, Chairwoman Hill did such a great job of then educating the public on what the procedure is. We're not trying to ignore people why they're here. um this is what our process is and we welcome your your comments but here's there's a time and a place for it and I notice that um uh say for instance when you go to a beerboard meeting you have to sign in that you're here you're there for a particular reason is there any benefit to have people sign in when they come in to they don't have to say necessarily what they're there to speak about but if we see that there's 15 people that are there to speak to the council at least that gives the opportunity to the chair to say, uh, I see where there's, uh, 15 people here tonight to speak to the council on various topics. We don't even need to know the topic. I just want to remind you what the procedure is. Um, you know, we have an agenda. Here's our timeline. This is when you'll have opportunity to speak. So, people could could leave and come back or at least we we don't come across as ignoring them. So, it things have seemed to settle down now. It may have just been kind of like at that moment it might it seemed like a good uh a good opportunity to do something. So, I thought I'd bring it forward to see if there's any interest in establishing some sort of

system.

And Phil, could you could you add if we have any um limitations on something like that? Yeah, there the general assembly passed a new law uh 844112 in 2024 here that is in effect right now at this point and it says that y'all can put reasonable restrictions on the uh period for public comment which is what we do the time manner in place of three minutes in that regard such as the length of the period, the number of speakers and the length of time that each speaker will be allowed to provide comment and you can require a person to give notice in advance of the desire to offer comments at a meeting and you can take all practical steps to ensure that opposing viewpoints are representative fairly. So other governmental bodies do have that and require people to actually sign up on what they're going to talk about on there and then allow those people to be able to be presenting their their issue to the council if you want want to do that in that regard. Uh, I know that the folks in Memphis actually have a sergeant of of arms who enforces that. So, they have a person that actually requires them to do that outside to sign up. In Memphis, it's pretty bizarre. They actually require them to include a comment card that has to have their home address involved. And if they want to speak, they have to show that they do actually live there in Memphis to be able to talk. And, uh, they have to uh, provide their name on the record. uh to state their address whenever they do that. And if they're falsifying their address and just coming in from abroad to speak on that, uh they can be prohibited from speaking again. So that that was interesting to see that. Katherine was was printing me off a copy of that today. Uh they are limited over there to two minutes and can't speak on more than two agenda

items and no one can uh yield time to allow people to just keep on going. So the the time manner type restrictions are things that are well recognized within the first amendment to the constitution. So that that's why we try to do that. So I think what councilwoman Bur was was bringing was trying to add a greater measure of dignity um and um responsiveness to the public. So it sounds as though we have we have many options that we could if this body was interested in tighten up, but that was not the intent of the conversation. It's really more to give people an opportunity to communicate with us in advance of the of the meeting so that

the chair would be able just to acknowledge we understand we have a lot of people here tonight that are concerned about X topic. Please know we're here to listen to you kind of thing. Yeah. And as if I could add another comment to that is, you know, as I'm as I say it out loud, I don't even think we need to necessarily know what the topic is. I think just knowing that I plan to my name is Jenny Burs and I plan to speak during public comment because then I don't I don't want people to be discouraged for coming and speaking out. I mean, I just I don't you know, with the exception of one person, we you know, there's rarely been anything that's been inappropriate. even though we might not

like the topic or it may just be you know why are you telling us this but at the same time it gives people a forum so I don't want to I don't want to um so I think if we just say hey if you plan to speak tonight just please sign in and it could be as simply as I see that we have about 15 people here tonight and it could even be right before the recess because it gives people a chance to come in somebody hands you a note that says we've had 15 people and ina this case it would be you until the next chair but I see where we have about 15 people here to speak. I just want to make you aware of what our schedule's going to be and when you can expect to, you know, can't tell you exactly what time, but I want to make sure you understand we're not blowing you off in a nice, you know, however you want to put it.

You need to have a time when they can do that and you need to have a cut off time of when they can do that if you do that on their position and then how does that get to you? It could be voluntary, right? I mean, doesn't I think because this is a a a move toward be not like we don't want people to be discouraged. So, it feels to me like it's a little bit more casual at this point. It's not a requirement that you have to sign in, but if you want to sign in so people know, we all know you were here. You can. It's a communication tool, not as much a order maintaining tool. like like I wouldn't see that with this that the chair would be like, "Well, we only have 15 people and you're number 16, so no go." I don't think that's the intent

at all. I think it's trying to be more welcoming. Uh chair or Councilwoman Dotley followed by Councilman Henderson. Um and I guess and actually my question is directed toward Councilman Henderson before. Um so

yeah, I saw your hand up and I thought that's the first time I put my hand down. So when um before I got on council, I used to watch it online because y'all were virtual. And so you used to call out the people's names like it's such and such a online cuz everybody was virtual. So then so you all had a sign up, y'all had a sign in or sign up process cuz y'all could call names. Sometime people wouldn't be there but y'all would call their name and and for me just listening it made me feel like oh they know their name or at least you know it's just a way of kind of connecting or you know connecting with those people. So what was what was your process? I know it was uh electronic, but what was y'all's process of getting people to sign up? Do you remember or Nicole? Well, I remember

that would be that would be a Kim Smith question or answer. That's right. Cuz he was a tech person. He was he was a tech person, but you could submit your name. Mhm. And and you would be in that queue, right? To raise your hand. Uh, Deputy Leford, I I want to call you Councilman Leford, right? You are correct, but that was strictly why we were during co. Yes. That was not integrated into a live meeting. Right. Okay. It it was your it was your way because otherwise I wouldn't know if you wanted to speak or not unless you had submitted, right? Because you So the nine council me well nine and Phil was on the screen.

Yes. Yeah. And then everybody else just had to you had to submit their name. Yeah. And it was just so that we could then push a button and bring them in. Okay. It wasn't for like Well, I guess it was permission to speak, but but that's the way the forum made us do it. If does that make sense? Otherwise, we wouldn't have known who wanted to speak or not. Right. Right. And I think that's kind of you got

in a sense. I think it's good because then you're calling a person's name or if it's just a 15, you know, 15, we know it, you can explain to people or if it's a names, you know, piece where you're saying, hey, you know, such such a in order how they got it on the list, you know, or something like that. I don't know. But I just think it's a I think it'll be I think it'll be good. I just always liked it cuz I felt like y'all were calling a person's name and that just made, you know, it kind of pulls you into a place where you feel like you're a part of the meeting and don't feel like you're just this outsider standing out waiting to say something. So it there was a little I think it in fact I think it was called a waiting room that you were placed in. Okay. And so I would have to tell Councilman Smith, bring

whoever out of the waiting room so that they could then comment. So they would submit it prior to the meeting. I think they could submit it during the meeting. Okay. Even during the meeting. Uh where's Nicole? I think maybe it was prior to the meeting. Correct. You had to submit if you wanted to speak prior to the meeting and then you created a list. It it seems like somehow you were involved. That makes sense. Prior to prior to the meeting, she's got the whole experience out. Okay. That was that was what five years ago. But I think it was I think it was prior I think there was a link

a lot of this is coming back now. I think there was a link that you prior to the meeting had to submit a request to be added into the waiting room. Okay. And then when we got to the end of the meeting we would call you out of the waiting room. Okay. That works. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Council, did you have other? Well, I I did. I guess and then we'll have Harvey after. You know, it it sounds like maybe um it was really a matter of communication. They didn't understand that they would have to wait till the end, right?

To simplify things. And a lot of times, uh when I chaired, I would always say, "Please make sure your cell phone's on silent." We could also include if you're here to speak, here's our process. Here's our process. Regardless of, you know, we can pretty much look out there and tell if people are here to speak. And to me, I just, you know, I'm I'm simple. I like to keep things as simple as I can. If we just make an announcement before we really get started with the meeting, letting people know, here's our process. If you want to speak, we're going to take a brief recess and then we'll come back.

That at least that sort of speaks to them without speaking to them personally or individually and then without them having to sign a piece of paper because I don't want people to think that you got to sign a piece of paper in order to speak because I don't know how many times I have heard somebody get up there and say I really wasn't planning on speaking tonight but you know and look and we want to encourage everybody to speak so maybe I mean just consider maybe Maybe we have a little announcement at the very beginning. Turn your cell phones off and if you're here to speak, you can do it after we return from recess.

A lot of trouble with cell phones except for one. It seems like on the far right. Well, I know I know one member has a trouble one member has trouble with her iPad. Cell the iPad does not seem to want to work with me. Can you see me telling? Um, yeah. I think f first my my first question would be stomp on it still talking. I wouldn't want to deny someone who hadn't signed up to be able to speak. Absolutely.

Uh, that was my first thing and how would we enforce that? But uh, the second thing is um, I like what council do during the budget uh, hearings and you said one hour. you know, how many other people get through that is is that's that's what it is. But you have an hour. And so I don't know, should we consider, you know, if we do recognize that there's a larger crowd and we recognize that these there is a topic that the public wants to speak on. Do we consider moving that up in the agenda instead of the last thing? Do it the first thing. Set set it for 45 minutes. Set it for an hour. And then the public feels like they've been heard. they can leave and then we can continue the business of the council.

You know, I can remember the county commission setting up something like what Phil was describing as within the law to say, "We're gonna have this much time. There'll be 30 minutes for this view and 30 minutes for this view and then kind of decide amongst yourselves who's going to take that time." Is that something, Phil, that we would be able to enact on an ad hoc basis? You you can it it is allowed. It's better if you have just a procedure in place if there's a special issue coming up. I I would do do it for that, but it's clearly allowed in the statute. I would remind people that we have had a 2 a.m. meeting. That's what I'm saying. Set a set a time

because because the council didn't want to set a time limit and so did and that's always the time. That was a long night. Well, I think I think that speaks to the culture of this council being willing to stay happy to defund the police. Happy to stay until everyone is it does seem like it could make sense as you're looking at the other uh the other emergency elements on the council rules to consider adding in our public comment. just going ahead and identifying the fact that this is something that we may do as necessary for special topics for the community. Um okay, so we've got vice chairwoman no followed by Councilman Elliot.

Okay. So in the past it has been if there is a large group most of the time they do have one spokesperson even though that um sometimes sometimes they might want to ask them to stand in and let them know but they do have one person that come up. I know when we were doing um whatever it was, I can't remember the exact thing when you would chair uh Councilwoman Dotley, they that there was several times that there was very large groups, but they did have a spokesperson senior center. Yeah, they just show up. Okay. Councilman Elliot,

to Councilman Harvey's point, you know, I would recommend instead of us changing the rules, leaving that at the discretion of the chair or we always have the ability to motion to suspend the rules and move things around accordingly. So, if we ever see a large contingent, any of us can motion to suspend the rules to move public comment to the top. Um, and then we just go that way instead of having to change our rules. We can just keep that in the back of our mind and do it on a as need basis. It's the 3:30 meeting.

You can do it anytime. And if you have a longer comment period, just like what Councilwoman Dolly did, the chair can put a time limit on there. uh like technically the chair can put a time limit on anybody speaking. Um and so that's just something we can keep in the back of our mind for whoever's hearing.

So point of point of feedback on that and why I think it would be useful to have some language in here related to just what we are able to do and like the things where we reference the emergency powers that that kind of thing. I find that when when I write something down gives me permission to it so to speak. Um because you know as one of the challenges I think of of a nine member democratically elected body is that um it's one of our advantages that we continually have a change in leadership but because of that we don't always have procedures written down the way or or depth of knowledge because it changes and so like if this is all there then when the next chair comes in all these questions are answered and they don't have to be another another phone call. I think it doesn't doesn't limit or extend power. It just writes it down. Um which um can be really useful just for answering questions. Council

real quick just because I know we need to wrap this up and move on. I just I appreciate the conversation and I I love the idea of just better communication. I think that that could solve y the biggest issue and if it's coming from the chair then I think that's a great idea. I don't I'm not necessarily in favor of changing a policy, but just being more responsive to the folks that come here and making sure that they feel included and part of the process and how and how it's structured for them to be included. Yeah. And that they are heard. That they are heard. Yes, that's the main thing.

Yeah. I think that speaks to those values that we identified. Um okay, so our final topic for today or no, not our final topic. We have two more topics. Um, Councilman Elliott has uh potentially brought some some thoughts on um the council policy position. I I'm going to make this very brief. Um, I have heard from a lot of folks. Chair Mahill gave me her thoughts as well. Um, I do need to get yours. I need I've got them written down. I'll

Okay. if you can send me those and I would like to send a final uh draft of this and I would like to go ahead and move forward with putting this to a vote in um the next couple weeks via resolution. And so I'll compile all of those changes and throw out my final proposal for all of us to consider. And the reason I'm ready to move forward, we've been talking about this one for better part of a year and it's time to land a plane or park it permanently. It's one or the other. So, okay. So, when would you like everybody to get their feedback to you so that you can move forward? Do you want it by the end of this week? Really? By tomorrow. By tomorrow.

Fair enough. Because I've asked folks for a couple weeks now. All right. So, if you have any feedback that you'd like him to consider for a resolution that is yours wholly, but you can do this as you see fit, um please get it to Councilman Elliot by the end of the day tomorrow and we will expect um to see fill out to get that on the agenda, the three week agenda. Three weeks. Yeah, we could do it on the Do you want it on the two week or you want on future considerations? Two weeks. Two weeks. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. um council rules code of ethics. First want to thank councilwoman Dotley for um raising her hand and saying hey you want me to look into this and I said I love working with counciloman Dley it was wonderful for her to volunteer. So take it away ma'am because this co the ethics complaints were something that came up um go for it.

Yes. So, it's something that um in the spirit of kind of tightening up our council rules, having things written down. It was recommended by our wonderful city attorney that we uh add something something similar to our rules uh regarding complaints against council members simply because council members do not fall under the employee information guide. We fall under a code of ethics which is a higher standard. So, all I've done here is went to our charter because it's already in the charter because the people have already decided what they would like to see. And so all this is is coming out of our directly out of our charter. I kind of outlined the process a little different and complaints um against council member because in our charter it has um uh uh employees and officials but then council members have a separate

complaint process. So all this is is outlining that process based on what's already in our charter. So basically the process is um council member is outlined in the city charter and I got you chapter 2 article 8 section 2 761B. Is that right? Be on this be on this legal ease. Yes ma'am.

And so um so basically it out outlines that it will be a presentation to the council and that will come from our city attorney who is our chief ethics officer. They have to uh present the complaint at the next regularly scheduled meeting of the city council. Uh initial review and vote. This is we come into play cuz again we don't fall under the EIG. So after hearing the nature of the complaint we have to decide as a majority vote and I get all nine have to be here uh or you know as a majority vote to determine one of three outcomes. The complaint has merit it doesn't have merit or it needs further investigation. So we have to determine that um amongst ourselves in a public meeting. Uh if we decide it needs further investigation u then uh the majority council has to vote on uh if if it warrants further investigation the council authorize an investigation to be conducted either by our chief ethics officer which is our which is Phil or by outside entity because we do have contracts with other law firms. Now that's on our side of it. the requirements for filing a complaint from someone on the you know from a employee and that goes for anybody whereas employee of the city a uh constituent um to initiate their process they have to uh submit it within 90 days of the alleged violation the complaint must be in a written sign written I'm just reading it because I just want to make sure I'm reading it out loud uh format the complaint must be in writing signed by the complaintant and notorized uh required content it must include the compl plaintiff's legal name and current mail and address, the names of the officials involved, a summary of the facts, and an explanation of why the those facts constitute an ethics violation. Um, good faith complaints must be filed with a good faith basis. Anyone filing a false complaint will be subject to penalties, penalties of perjury, and if they need help filling out the complaint form, they can contact our chief ethics officer uh or designate is permitted to help them. So that is what our charter outlines and uh kind of

and and as madam chair said you know we just want to this is just a matter of adding it to our council rule so it is transparent people can see it and they can understand that we we too can be complained on. We are we are Chattanooans as well. we uh we have a code of ethics and the manner of behavior that we should have and so people also have a recourse to say hey I believe this council member has violated the code of ethics by whatever they feel. Yes. Um one question to you Phil with this and thank you again counciloman. Um is

the way that I understand this is that every officially filed complaint would end up being presented in public to council. Is is that the case or is there any space for initial um review by the chief ethics officer to determine if the uh if the complaint is um a legitimate ethics violation? Well, if if if I am reviewing it as the chief ethics officer here, I would normally review that. There is an ethics committee that is involved as well, which is uh me and the chief finance officer and I believe it's the Mr. S.

Yeah, it is. Or either the chair of city council or something like it's three people that are the review committee and then if the review committee determines it is an actual violation, then it or it comes in front of the add that part to the correct. I I think um I'm probably not alone in the concern that especially like as election season rolls around, we wouldn't want this to be used as either um a weapon against um an elected leader. Don't let it roll too quick. What's that? Don't let it roll too quick. We just got out of one.

Don't um but as a as a weapon against a council member for doing their job, right? um or um something that becomes um overly uh ownorous because we we don't want frivolous our CFO, our city attorney and our uh our auditor spending significant amounts of time on uh frivolous correct real 100%. And I know we don't want to we want to be as transparent as possible, not subjective. Councilman Clark, you had your hand raised up. Oh no, no. took it down. Councilman Harvey, followed by Councilman Elliot.

What? Okay. So, say we go through all this and there there is a a serious complaint and the council finds it has merit. What what's the penalty for a council member? Penalty for a council member is it coming out in the public meeting in that regard there. And if there is some sort of I guess criminal violation, then there is potent potentially criminal prosecution. If there's some sort of violation of your oath of office that you had, then that's subject to ouster proceedings. Okay. And then also a public centra, but that's just kind of like a bad a mere badge that you have honorously earned. Rather not have that. Right. Right. Okay. Okay. Councilman,

uh, Council Harvard asked most of my questions. Well, you answered most of my questions, but er proceedings. Yes. Um, we can oust another council person. No, only courts can oust a person. So, we would over to chance court an action in court and court would have to make a determination. Is there a and that's only if it's criminal? Well, it can be a civil violation too as well. Residency. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But this this is a very serious process

stuck with me. Cases are about three times. So it doesn't take five of us to remove chick. That is not allowed. That is correct. Only the people that put me in here can take me out. That's right. That's right. Heard it said. That's right. No, you left out one. Yes. One major person. God. it out. So, Madam Chair, ma'am, so for so for this um I can go back and add a couple of pieces to it included to do it. Yes. Well, thank you, Phil. You got this. You carried the water. Oh, thank you, Phil. I'm talking about Okay.

I got a point of uh clarity about this. So, if it's enshrined in our charter, we're just Is this just a something redundant we're doing to put into our um rules? I guess for visibility purposes, someone was researching or Well, so trying to figure out when any one of us as a council member is looking at our rule book, the more clarity it can have within it, the fewer questions. But it's the same thing in our charter, right? Correct. Right. That's correct. Yes.

Yeah. And the same thing with um special powers is something that's in state law. Um the the public comment piece is something that's in state law, but just these are questions that have been asked now. We write it down. We've got it all in one place so that people don't have to go all over the place. And so it'll just say pursuant to etc, etc. This is, you know, and y'all had to adopt these codes of ethics here because the state of Tennessee required you to do so. uh and that that's one of the requirements for public officials in the state that they comply with this code of ethics as well as city employees.

So really with all three of these topics related to to the rules, none of them um really change any powers that exist. They don't they don't add to or take away from anything. They just acknowledge here's the question we've had. Let's write them down in this one document so we have fewer places to look. So um uh let's see. Thank you. Thank you all so much for this great discussion and your your thoughtfulness. Um, Councilman Henderson, I believe you had one other item.

So, in preparation for America's 250th birthday, there's a little celebration committee that has formed. And one of the things that they've done is they're making up some um quarter inch Liberty bales. Oh, cool. Uh we have one right now that is behind the sign shop down here on onion bottom that uh can be brought up here if the council has no objections to us displaying it here on the council yard. Sounds great. So it would be us participating in the celebration. That's great. We're good with that. That's awesome. Okay.

How how did one get on the party planning committee 50th birthday? That is cool. That is cool. Right. I'm not No, I'm not on it. But if you do, but I just thought if you were on a party planner, you don't want me planning a party. All right, Councilman. There would be no beer. No. I mean, you know, I just want to commend Councilman Henderson on his proper use of his iPad. You can teach an old dog new tricks. All right. Is anybody else have any announcements? Okay, thanks everybody. I'll see you at 3:30. That was fine.