Historic District Review Board - Regular Meeting

you. Oh, you're texting. Yeah, I don't have I just said Okay, you're you texting. I said, "Hi, Kimberly, it's Lauren from HRB. We really need you here so we have a quorum tonight. We can take a vote 37th Street. Please come." Yeah, I don't know if she will check her messages. Well, to send it to her high importance. I don't know. I think that's only [laughter] Yeah. Hello. new background. Is it raining today? [laughter]

No. Doesn't happen here. We we don't want to see there's about three four four feet of snow in the drifts, right? In the drift. I still I stepped out one of my car was I stepped in a drift coming here and I definitely I am still having some snow melt happening in my sock presently from said snow drift. Oh man, was pumping gas yesterday morning and my nose hairs were completely frozen. I mean, it was like Yeah, it was just It had to be like one degree outside. Like, it was really bad.

But all right, I'm going to try to just call her. Um, oh, Kate gave me a different number. Wonder which one came on screen called the Google thing where like say your name first doing voice on this happening. It it made me feel uncomfortable when I learned from a friend who has one of those that

it's only if you're that phone number that you're going from isn't in their contacts. I still don't wake up. I still don't like it. But it may be like, "Oh, okay. Now I get it all."

Um, okay. Sevilla.

Mhm. Apparently, it was right in the mailbox. I was like, I honestly I had no idea there was mailbox. I barely checked them. I just didn't read the mailbox. It's a Anyway, this is cool. They're fancy. I mean, it's good because now we're not like, "Yeah, you can put in little sticky tabs where you're like, "Oh, I know this one." [laughter] Mine. I There's some things I like plan my year out every year and there's some things like I just have to do a paper version of it.

I like the tactileness of, you know, highlighting and being like, "Okay, I'm traveling all these days. this happening, you know,

she said she'll be right here.

She's coming. Hopefully it it yields a successful pathway so that it's worth her stepping away. Hopefully I think let's find her stepping away here. Okay, we looked down. I I I looked at it and uh basically I guess what we need to do is pick from three options.

There's sort of a couple things. I do have a small update. The the door uh we found a way to improve this to metal spacing relative to glass or glazing ratio. So, I have slightly new measurements than what is like in there. That just improves the glass getting a little bit bigger and the metal getting smaller. So, I have those. I've sort of marked up one and can walk through that. It's not a lot. It's an inch and a half on each piece of metal, but but in total across, you know, however many pieces of metal, it like sort of adds up and moves more towards the effect.

You're talking about the uh the glass door to the bakery. So that's the only other thing that's like new info that's not there. But otherwise, yes, there's sort of a two door options and two porch option. I can give some commentary on the porch option and door option. You know, if I can wait till Kim is here or I can just start sharing. Wait, wait for him. Right. And um Kate and Todd, you've seen the you see the drawings online, right? I see two I see two options. Todd, that correct? He's not muted.

I'm Kate's muted. Do you hear me? Now we do. Yeah. Um I see two I see two options. Is that correct? Just two. Option one here and option [clears throat] two, right? with a slight modification for so there's we did two different porch style

and two door option and so the the the intersection of two and two creates a possible four combination you could say I like porch option A and door option B um I'm missing what's different between the porches is on both on these pages. The only difference is the one of them is shows us is steps between the two levels versus the other is a slight a very shallow um ramp. Thank you. Got it.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay, with that, I'll call the meeting to order since we do in fact have a quorum. I'm sorry, D. Give me one second. Let me try and adjust the sound on this. Could you say something really quick, Todd? Hello. Can you hear me? Can't hear you. No. A little bit louder. Talking. I'm talking. Yes. Can you hear me? I can hear you really well. Just for context.

Kate's like, "Can you stop talking?" Todd, no shouting. [laughter] Have to speak loudly. Yes. I'm speaking loudly without shouting. Does that work? I think I think it's the I'm sure Teddy Rosel wouldn't mind if you like, you know, like got get you with his big [laughter] fy.

Okay. So, we're here um not to read the the the guidelines, but uh we're here for 55 M no 37 Main Street 55 is another story. Um [laughter] and uh um basically uh Brian, why don't you tell us the options that we're looking at? Sure. And it's okay if I step up and Yes, please come up.

Um thank you. Thank you for making time tonight. Again, I really appreciate it. Um the options on the uh on the drawings, there are two porch options. One is a very shallow incline without a step. The other is a flat plane uh on the left side or the east side with a with a step up. Um so that those are two options on sort of the porch and then the two options on the door are double doors uh and then one larger pivot door if I'm summarizing. There's a couple other nuances and stuff. I will point out that we the uh door designer was able to confirm that he could do slightly smaller uh metal pieces than what is he got all these details to us in the spec sheets and everything and then he was able to confirm he could do slightly smaller. So the doors as drawn show 3 and 1/2 uh inch metal pieces and he can get them down to 2 in which improves the ratios. I sort of improved them up to so the sidelights get wider and a little bit taller uh in both cases and the door the gl the ratio of glass and glazing to the metal gets better than what is shown. So we will do that in in all in both cases in either case we will go with the thinner option. Uh so a little commentary that I'm going to give while I I Al you sort of uh suggested the ramp concept. The the odd thing that we dug into in the code is that as soon as there is a ramp even if it is extremely shallow technically it needs a raillay.

Yeah. Well the only thing is is that uh unless it's at at a certain gradient it can be uh con not considered a ramp. Because for example the sidewalks, if what you're saying is true, then you know you have a lot of sidewalks and have guardrails. Yeah. And that's not the case. Maybe it's this angle.

They I I can double I can check now because I did the answer I got back from the from the architect was that if it's a ramp, it requires railing. But I'm happy to double check the code myself and try to confirm if there maybe there is a we the ratio is shown on that version. It is a half inch over 12 in. So half inch rise over a foot run per foot. Um so I'm I mean look I think there are a lot of things in the village that are at that uh slope that do not have the ramp. Um, and so if if the vote wants to be contingent on confirming that because I know that having a railing in that section is something that we don't want to do. So I'm totally in support of that. I like the ramp better than the step, but I'm happy to only do it if we it can be without a ramp.

Okay. I don't think noticeable. Yeah. The thing to keep in mind is the fact that if there's a step there, then you've lost the handicap accessibility. We do. So, for the handicap accessibility, what we plan for in the steps here is a fixture piece that can be set there that sets on top of the steps that allows for the handicap ramp. Well, the the thing that you have to keep in mind is that it's handicap ramp can't be greater than one on 12. Right. So, it sticks out a bit. Right. So, uh how high is that step?

Uh it is two steps at uh it was I think it was a a 10 inch. So, it's probably two steps at five inches. Okay. So, 10 inches. So, you're talking about a 10 foot long ramp. ramp that goes on top of this. Yeah. So, if as long as the railing doesn't have to be put in per code, if we can go with the rampers, I'm in full support there versus u the steps option. Okay. Because the the other uh the other thing is is the um that's with the u stone landing staying in place. then a flag stone. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. All the drawings sort of have that. I mean, it's not the most artful version of a stone, but you know, it's cabin because, you know, I'm willing to [sighs and clears throat] half inch per foot. See, now that that would that contradicts what you're telling me because Oh, oh, wait a minute. I think I take it back because um

I think a half inch per foot would be 1 to 24, which then might not require the railing. Um, if that's helpful. Can you just speak up a little bit? Sorry, I forgot that. Yeah. Is that better? Yep.

I think a half inch uh is 1 to 24. So, that would be less steep than the 1 to 20 that Al was referencing where you no longer need a railing. Um, I do think for people, you know, with strollers, um, you know, ADA aside, even people who do want an ADA ramp, that h not having to place something temporarily is definitely preferable. Um, I've heard a lot in the village about um, complaints about putting something temporary down by villagers. And do we know how long this

from here to here? What's that distance? Uh let me see that for

I think it's 20 something feet, but give me a second to try to get there. I should be able to figure it out.

It's approximately 20 four. I don't have a measurement of exactly that. I mean, we could pull out it's to scale. Did not bring up. Well, if this is 24 and you're we're talking about a 10-in rise, then uh you're talking about the the sort of the movable ramp.

It comes across this. Yeah. Comes out here. I mean we can write in the CMA that we prefer one version and if that version was not possible because a railing would have to be added.

Yeah. I mean the option two with the step bothers me because you're we're going to a lot of extremes just to provide handicapped accessibility and you know uh to me the the whole business about the ramp in between. The other thing uh I I guess is is there is there any reason why this which represents you know this line right this this fasia of that why is it not

like that? Um, I think I'm more than happy to make sure it's constructed that way and get the drawings updated. I think that Gracie just didn't do that. Like it just didn't get drafted that way. But I think that does make on the ramp version. That makes sense. on the step version. I think it makes sense that it's sitting right uh the notch below.

Okay. Well, let's let's sort of um cover each one separately. Um all right. What are everybody's thoughts concerning the ramp version versus the step version? Um, I think the ramp version is preferable. Um, because you're going to have to add a lot of furniture or, you know, like a fixture kind of thing.

But I if if you find out even during the course of building that you needed railing, then it's a no for me. I'm I I like you sort of said it a minute ago the like ramp if no railing if railing required step with that sounds very workable. Yeah, I I agree on I agree with that sentiment. Yep. Yeah. All right. So So we're talking about Kate. Do you have any thoughts on there? I agree.

Okay. So, we're all pretty much in agreement that we would prefer the ramp. Now, I if I I know for a fact that uh that uh the the gradient once you're below a certain level gradient, you don't need a handwriting. And and that has to do uh with like a 20% gradient. 20 What's the 20%. This is one over 24. So this is one over 20. So this is less than a 20% gradient. If I'm doing my head math right, this is like a 15 or 17% gradient.

All right. But I I guess let's let's talk about uh the location of the landing because obviously that that represents a certain amount uh of uh depth which can be reduced. I know uh Todd you you were looking at absolutely not touching the stone the stone landing amstone. Yeah, I I just felt like it would look uh well look funny and be not as practical to have the door um the threshold for the door on the exterior be completely in line with that interior floor height. I mean, if it if it was moved up a little bit and there was still some kind of um difference there just for visual context, I think that would be okay personally. I mean, listen, if if I'm the minority here, but I just feel like especially historically speaking, you would you would not have a front door like that or the main door to a building with a threshold stone on the exterior in line with that. There would be a step up. So, I feel like it's good to keep that.

Right. Well, the thing is is that I think that I agree with you that uh we we could raise the stone a little bit and and still keep the configuration where you know you do have a step up into the into the uh the building. Um, and again, you know, what you're going to have to do is, uh, yeah, have work out exactly at what point, uh, it's not considered a ramp, but sloped surface. Okay, gotcha. That makes sense to me.

But can we talk about the this again though because I was a little confused by the what the drawing that you were making. You're saying that this supplement should not be they should also be sloped. What do you Yeah. In other words, that is that's the u the band that the ramp framing frames into. So if the the ramp is sloped, then wouldn't that framing also be sloped? You can't have like a lip or can't have it straight forward across sort of I think um like have the fascia be I think what I

should be straight like all across or does the fascia have to follow the slope of the of the ramp? Well, and I think that the the fascia of that ramp uh would have to align with the framing of the ramp, right? because we're talking about a

I don't think you should have a lip sticking up. I I don't know what part of the code is, but like something sticking up on the edge of a platform that you step up and off of. I can't imagine that allows for there to be an upward lip. I that I'm more than happy to have the fascia board be either a very shallow triangle, so it looks mostly like a board, but it's I guess makes it a trap. you know, very shallow kind of triangle with that or have it just be angled to match the ramp so that it is a rectangle fasia board, but it is angled with the ramp and follows that and and the end will have to be mitered slightly to marry into the the upper platform.

Right? Because the other thing that you have to keep in mind is the fact that you've got all of that brick. Mhm. Below the below. So, I'm fine with either of those details. Um, do you guys have an opinion about that? I can put it up on the screen if that helps. No. Yeah, I actually have it open. Um, personally,

I think that the if I just give my own commentary, the width is so wide that I don't know that you'll really notice that one end. I guess you will notice that one end is taller by six inches or something than the other. I think my gut is that the fascia should be level across the bottom and angle with the ramp. So, a trapezoid. I think so. Lauren, what do you [laughter] what? Kimberly,

it's probably going to be imperceivable really. Like, unless you're looking, it's it's probably that's probably the move. I think you will your eye your eye will be e it will be easier for your eye to be tricked if the the the bottom edge of that is in is straight and level along with that course of brick and you're not perceiving an angle all the way across the front of the bricks because visually that's what you're going to see it against is the brick. So yeah, I feel like having the bottom in line with the bricks makes sense. I agree with that. keep the bricks level square and then the ramp is the patient board is angled.

I I I guess here here is my only question. Um realistically the the the brick if if you if this is maintained, the bottom edge is maintained. Do the uh joists that frame out the ramp, are they tapered? In other words, do they get smaller as you get towards the end over here? I mean, for code, they can't. They have to be at a, you know, but what I can do is make the fascia board different than the framing.

Okay. I mean, my my feeling is is that I'd rather see it truth to the framing rather than some an arbitrary uh you know, brick lining up with the brick coursing.

Well, I think we're aren't we saying that the bottom horizontal edge is going would be level in line with the brick and the top horizontal edge would have a very slight angle. So, you would still be hiding all the joist and decking material, right? Isn't that what we're saying? The question really is is that does the fascia board represent the thickness of the joists that frame the the ramp? I I mean normally yes, but here they would get the fascia board would just get taller at the the river side, the the west side of it because it would be kind of disguising the fact that there is a subtle lift there. So

um I I think what if if I hear what you're saying El it's I think you're speaking to it becomes that so if we go with the trapezoid shape it means that it is then like it's not how it would have but it's not doesn't have some of the authenticity. It is a facade. The the fascia board is a facade sitting on top of the framing, right? Which is a fake covering of the frame. The fascia board here dips down below the frame the in that theory it would do that. All right. I I guess varying equal with that and then and then tapering,

right? I I guess uh my question would be how big of a board are we talking about? In other words, uh the framing for the for the ramp would probably be two by what? Which of the boards? The Yeah, you're going to have frame framing, right? Uh 2 by8 2 by eight. Okay. And then uh I I would assume I would assume that there needs to be a a horizontal ledger which sits on top of the uh the brick.

So that's another inch and a half. Um 2x8 is 7 and 12 plus another inch and a half is nine nine inches. And so the the question becomes how big is this down here over that? Well, it becomes like 14 or 15, right? And and I don't see any particular reason for it because I can just as easily see the logic of of this going perceptively. meeting and meeting board that fascia board

the bottom Kate I I think what I'm hearing and and what it does sort of resonate with me is that where the two the ramp section and the flat platform section meet the fascia board on the flat section the right hand side or west side will be its dimension let's call it eight inches for just a rounder number and we and that if we have kept the bottom of the ramp the same. There'll be it'll be like a 14inch piece of trim marrying into an 8 inch piece of trim versus eight marrying into eight.

And on top of that, you're going to have to get this 14inch board and and do a taper cut at the top. Yeah. Not the easiest thing to accomplish. Yeah. I the thing the detail that to me and this I'm just a voice here. You you're the professionals. It's the it's where the two meet that is making it make real resonate for me. Al because it's it feels weird to have a 14 or inch piece meet an 8 in piece just and marry into each other.

I don't feel that strongly personally. I I mean I if there's a way to do that seamlessly, I think I would prefer it. But if it's going to be two boards with a with a horizontal joint down a, you know, 12 12 lineal feet and it's going to be a point of failure and water and whatever. I I will be that that's the other downside to I'm h I'm willing to do that, but that is part of what happened. strongly.

Do you feel that strongly? But I don't. I sort of feel like it's like another one of those sort of clunky details that characterize this building in a way, you know? So, I think that's okay. Okay. Right. Okay. All right. So, um, does anybody have any problem with the fact that that you have that brick as the the base? The brick. No, I think the brick is nice.

I think that works well. And we have brick peers and uh and uh lining up with the lattice in between. Um, I I got a question uh now. the uh access to that uh Vilco door is this right? Uh is there any reason why or does it make sense to sort of skip the brick where the door is?

The uh it's a good question. So the depth where's the is probably about the depth of the bulkor relative to the decking it can uh it can sit inside the frame of the deck so you don't see it on the face the the brick face piece of the facing the street. So it is only it is flush on the deck um and without it extruding to the outer edge of the fascia board in the brick. Okay. And what is it that you anticipate bringing down into lots of sacks of flour.

Okay. Not said facitiously. That's that was one of the the big important parts for the Angie's team, you know, for Ken and was not needing to bring in all of their supplies in through the main area of the green base. Okay. Well, I I guess the question becomes whether or not um you know if you omit or or create a gap where that uh where this

the door is. It seems like it' make it a little bit easier to get into uh into the Bilco door, but you're talking about um steps going down anyway. So, I don't know if it makes a difference. I I would personally prefer to have this all the way across. All right. I think that's the way it was shown in the original drawing. That's what I'm assuming as a perfe.

Okay. Um, so, uh, do we have any other comments or questions concerning the porch? Any comments on uh, the the guard rail? We're just doing simple square posts and square spindles. And what about are there any cap? Um, uh, yes. There it looks like there's a finished They're just And it's all wood.

It's all wood, but but it sticks above the railing, which I guess isn't a cap piece is what you're asking. Like a hat. There's no hat. And are the rails on the outside? I believe they're between the detail. It looks like I don't We don't I don't see a detail. There's There's not like a blown in detail. Maybe one more this is just six topic more the same. Yeah.

It looks like they're drawn on the outside of the post. I mean that's not typical construction but I assume they're not on the outside of the post or they should not be on the outside of the post. No, they should be between Yeah, they're between Okay. I I guess what we would like to see is a detail for that Gord. Okay. Um is there is there a preference like we like we want hats gaps? I think that's typical for this era. Look at I'm going to use this for you. Look at that.

Whoa. Hang on. Reference material at ready. find a picture. There is a one section you know 62 or I just click

but yeah sort of some well then but typically there's a some sort of half detail on top. Well, well, I don't think that that that's that's that critical, at least to me, uh because it could be just uh a post and with a pyramid top. He's showing a square top, right? Okay. It's not a pyramid. So, I think that's an important

Well, yeah, that it needs the the key the key is uh that the the fence railing uh is runs between the posts. Yep. So, it's the same on both sides. And uh and then uh what happens on top of the post? I I don't especially care all that much. I think as long as it's reasonable and I think it's you can look around. I was gonna say what I might orient towards I I think it's just flat top but the building across Lterrace it feels like

matching that some feels like the right I mean I I'm all for the eclecticness as well. So, I'm happy to do a different version, but may look to that for the not standard, but for the standard here, they they have a vertical railing. I can't picture the building. They have a vertical railing like this. Their posts go they have a roof over it. So, their posts go Oh, that's what the difference is. Their posts go all the way up. I was trying to picture my brain. Well, I I mean, you can took a take a look at a lot of Yeah. Like look at stairs that come down and like whatever's happening at those stairs. Wow, those are good. Okay, so now let's talk about um the doors.

Can I ask one clarifying question? It actually goes back to our fall session. So the the drawings that we finalized in the fall for these windows. Um I've rewatched the Zoom like 12 times and look try to look closely on the drawing that got marked up. One got drawn up as a four over two and and the other one got drawn up as I've shown them here. So I'm happy to do whichever one, but in the video you can't. It is confusing which one was the thing that was finalized. And in the drawing, one of each is drawn. Well, what?

Uh uh just simple sash. No, no lights, no dividing. I think the two over two probably looks that you have drawn looks better. I had it drawn the other way and it this two over two the dimensions line up closer to the windows above in like sort of like it just feels the right way to me. But I'm open and I want to do what we did agree to then. But then when I went to go try to confirm which one it was, I think you did say two.

Yeah, I I think two of two looks looks appropriate. It looked like the the uh portion of the window that is glass is the same as it is. It's pretty close in rate in size. That's right. Okay, cool. Thank you. That's just sort of on that part of the building. I wanted to clarify that. Okay, so now let's talk about the door. Is

that what you guys remember with the windows? Yeah, I think we I know we talked about a few different things. Um I I just sketched it quickly, Lauren, if you look at that what I just sent you. Um and I think that the two over two looks way better than the four over4. Right now it's a like a two. It's just it's one over one. Oh, these are open. Okay. Okay. U thoughts concerning the door. Okay.

Oh, that's that's the difference. Okay. Yeah. Then the two over two is definitely the way. Okay. Cool. Um thoughts on the door. Um [sighs]

I don't I don't know off the top. Do you have a spec sheet? Do you have on the spectre sheet before the we have worked with the manufacturer and I I shared this I I think you were on Todd but I don't remember if you were but they have been able to confirm they can bring from we translated the specs onto the plans but I can pull up the like actual spec sheet we looked at it last time he has been able to confirm he can go down to just 2 in. So in all the places it says 3 and 1/2 in can all go down to two which get you know it increases the amount of glass by 50.

So those are three and a half as shown and they can go down to two so they get a lot skinnier. Correct. Yep. And what is the material? They're steel. Um it is not steel. So I it is not supposed to be steel door. Okay. Um, no, it is not steel. Uh, it is aluminum. Aluminum. Yeah, I didn't catch that. All right. The the first question is, uh, double door or single door? I will share the proprietor prefers the double door. Not me though. Yeah.

And what would the on the single door? What does the hardware look like? Uh the I do have I'll pull that up. It's a vertical handle like if I just answer the question correctly. Yeah. Like so it cut into the glass. It does. That would be like opening here. Yeah. And then cutting it. Um no actually it's on the other side. Okay.

Oh yeah. I mean, I kind of wish we had both of them in the in the full elevation drawing. I know they're they're not and we can't do anything about that now, but to see it kind of actually on the building the way that that first sheet shows would be helpful. Um

well I you know I I think the thing that you have to keep in mind is that um if you have if you go to one door then uh essentially what you have are two large sidelights. If you go two doors then the sidelights reduce in

width and u but b you gain the advantage of the fact that uh you've got two two doors that uh can operate both of them provide uh glass so therefore light into the space. It's sort of net effect the same amount of light but the same amount of glass in both options just sort of the rate where they're placed if that makes but I guess yeah and the the uh detail drawn on door option uh five or option two sorry goes has the sidelights come below the kick plate.

Yeah that also be done on the double door. So that can be done in either place. Either you keep the glass at kick plate height or at or lower. Kate, any any thoughts?

Uh, go ahead, Todd. I I I'm kind of struggling with both options to be totally honest and blunt. I I I don't I don't love them. Uh I think there's something kind of funny and offlooking about option one. Um that is you see that kind of configuration out there in the world but it's so uh modern and and um just kind of blah modern storefront that I think executed in aluminum you know there there is something about executing these options in steel that would it's just it's just fundament fundamentally a different look than aluminum like like through and through and I I completely understand that the price point is going to be very different as well and so this is there in lies the challenge. Um but executing something very sort of streamlined and and contemporary like this in steel can lend a very authentic um quasi kind of historic depending on your period feel to it in an industrial kind of way. Whereas executing something like this in aluminum to me feels about as mall entryway as you can get. Um, and so I'm I just am I don't know. I'm having trouble with this when compared to, you know, the rest of this building which is quite quite simple and austere but just, you know, wood wood elements everywhere. Everything is is wood. Um,

yeah, I'll Kate, go ahead. [laughter] Yeah, I mean I agree. I think uh this facade, the barn doors need to really shine and then this opening has to be as minimal as possible. I think steel would help with that. I also think having less elements would help. Um I don't know, you know, same issues, right? But if you had double doors, no side lightss at 36 each, it's a very wide door, but it it's much more refined.

Um maybe one of those is fixed. It's just a fixed glass panel at 36 and the other's a 36 door. I think that the symmetry is important and um I'm inclined to the double doors over the single because of the way the openings sort of existed previously. And if these existing doors slide back over the new doors, there's sort of a relationship between the two. So, it's less of a like stage set. I guess my other commentary, which is going to really just be a completely different direction here, is and I I don't know if anyone's going to agree with me. I would prefer that the existing doors be removed and remade from scratch in the same exact style with something that is more usable out of out of wood. Um, and keep the existing style and keep the look. get rid of all this rolling stuff and the fact that you're covering up like I I would prefer something like that. Um

that sounds so radical but given all the like jumps and hoop whatever all the things that you have to do to make it work as we're discussing it now it's getting really fussy. So, I wonder if actually this radical idea is actually a a nice solution that will be more budget friendly and um yeah, have operable existing historic doors.

It kind of simplifies that entire side of the building, which to me looks like really busy when when this the existing panels are kind of hinged and slid over, which is going to be the majority of daylight hours. Like, it just looks really busy to me. So

yeah. No, I I I agree. I think it look it looks like a stage that when when you have the doors on a track and and probably most mostly they'll always be open. Do we I I would disagree with that only in that um the whole point of putting the doors on a track is to try and uh recoup or or uh salvage the existing historic fabric. And and to me, I'd rather see that than than having it rebuilt, you know. Because [clears throat] if it's rebuilt, then you can tell that it's it's new wood. Whereas

Yeah. But all the siding, I mean, there's tons of of tons of parts of this building that have had lots of the siding has been replaced with new wood. It's all going to be painted. You're not going to be able to like I mean, they're going to look newly paint. We did I will add this just as a note on that. We we actually went to a lot of expense not to replace the sighting on like 80 plus% of the

Oh, no, no, I I completely I remember I every day would walk by it while you were doing all those repairs and remarked at the fact that you were keeping most of it. But what I'm saying is lots of new wood was spliced in there. Um and a lot of filling and sanding went on everywhere else on that building where the original wood was preserved. So when that is all done and it's professionally, you know, sanded and painted, you're not remarking, oh that's new siding. Oh, that's old. So, I just think that in this case, new doors made out of wood that look like the originals are preferable to this really significant and busy otherwise intervention with aluminum, you know, glazing.

Well, I I I Okay, Lauren, your two cents. I can't believe we didn't talk about this in the beginning. [laughter] I mean, we did. I think we like the goal was using the exist like we talked about it in the in the context of like the existing doors are in really bad shape, right? Yeah. I mean the question really is is that the existing doors would not make the space weathertight and so the question I mean one way or another set of doors would need to be behind the existing.

So the question then becomes um you know what do we do with those doors? Maybe they can be hung and used on the interior of the building uh as rolling doors someplace or like at the back. Yeah, it could be cool to even just have them as a piece in the wall or something. Well, I mean I mean I'm So if Todd is part of what you're saying that like the the doors offset to the west or right add noise to the facade. Yes. Noise is a euphemistic phrase and just removing them helps.

Well, but but recreating the doors as they were here. So just take like you making a copy basically of those doors in the exact same place that they are now. So you don't have the historic fabric anymore, but you have a recreation of those. Okay. I didn't touch that. Got it. And you won't have anything metal at all. It'll just be wood doors and then they fit the opening. then you don't have any style.

Probably one of the things I would put forward is the physicality of opening doors that large and heavy. But maybe I can maybe that can be overcome over the top. Well, okay. Um, so in other words, what we're talking about is reusing or or reusing the configuration. Yes. but in new doors in in lie of the the doors that we that we're talking about making it uh weathertight. Basically recreating the historic doors, mashing the historic doors.

Okay. But I mean what we're talking about is is is that going to become the uh weather door? Yes, that is the one and only door in my in my imagination. There's nothing else there. What's your thought on that, Brian?

Um, I I think there's a couple things to put out there from a usability perspective, I do think the weight of that much that large of a wood door and that width and dimension. It is a very large door. One of the things Ken and Angie when they watched and we sort of went because we sort of talked about this idea of these historic doors and one of the things they were concerned about they said they just have a lot of people that come in that are not strong that you know they're like the the physicalness of moving it is an issue. I think the other part is bringing light into the space. it's not the brightest space on the inside and they want there to be visibility from the inside to the outside um to sort of sense and see the activity on the inside to entice people in. So I think those are some of the reasons that I would put forward for that you know are not historic but are in terms of the utility of the space utility of the entryway um for the goals of the tenant. Um, I think, you know, if you've gotten up close with the doors, they're not um I I don't know that it it really would have to be new doors. I don't think that they will withstand being weathertight doors,

right? Furbished kind of way. Like, I think it would h I don't think that's a viable thing. I think I think what they're talking about is is uh taking the configuration of the existing doors and building new wooden doors that match that configuration and and that makes that are weathertight doors. Could I if I threw out like a a riff on that? Okay. What if it was not what if it was uh I guess it would be six over six. I don't know if that's quite the right phrasing, but it was essentially like more full glazing, which reduces the weight. Sort of addresses both of the issues from the tenants usability perspective.

Like 12 light 12 light. Uh yeah, I'm not I'm not against that. I think I would need to see how that looks um in the elevation drawings, but I I'm not necessarily against that. I uh I it doesn't appeal to me because it it basically I if you add if you go 12 over 12 then you're really not capturing the configuration of the doors as they are now. Wait 12 over 12. No 12 doors. Just 12 lights. So no overhead.

Oh. Oh, sorry. I thought you were saying just adding one more. It won't be a sill or separation. Oh, I Okay. Yeah. No, I I agree, Al.

I agree, too. I think it needs to look like a barn door and as soon as you have all that glazing, it changes the character of the door. If there's truly a light issue, um, I think that's a that's like a skylight. I don't think that the door can necessarily solve it. or what about that the concept that uh Todd raised before instead of an aluminum door a steel door. So we did a lot of investigating on steel door options and the cha the one of the core challenges is the dimensions and needing them to be uh configured as they need to be for this opening is custom which both does the price as you spoke to Todd and drives that up a lot but it's really the five to six month lead time that we couldn't find someone who would do a custom delivery short of that. There's a whole commentary on manufacturing in America and uh needing more of it, but I won't go down that. All right. Um, aside from the material of the door and does what's the thought as far as the uh single door as opposed to the double door? I don't like either configured as aluminum doors with the the rolling barn doors.

All right, Kim. Um, I I prefer the double doors to the single door, but it just feels very heavy and weighted out of the building because realistically these doors are going to be open most of the time and it just feels very weighty. What's the width of a of the each light of the double door? Yeah, these

because the single door would be a three-foot door, right? In the single is called out as being 3 foot six. So 42 42 and then and then this the double doors are hang on three are three foot three. Yeah. Wait, you said glazing or Well, is the glazing would be Yeah, I'm talking about the door itself. The door itself. So that that's three and a half. Three and a half. It's uh seven. I think the the door is three. So the from Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the doors the double doors are three and

yeah, angle doors three foot six. These are what? Uh I think I can do that. Well, they together they add up to this dimension. So they're about one foot. So the whole opening is 8 ft wide. Yeah, they're four. So, I think they're four.

Um, Kate, thoughts?

Uh, I feel like we're spiraling a little, so I don't know where we've left off. I mean, I think I like Todd's idea of the rebuilt uh doors to match the existing, getting away from any aluminum. I like the idea of steel doors. I appreciate the timeline issue. Um, I think that if there is a version of aluminum where, like you said, the three and a half drops down to two and something, I'd be open to looking at it. I still think there are way too many vertical members in both of these options. Um, and I do think the double door is is like I said earlier more consistent with what you'd experience with the barn door. So that's what I want. But obviously that would then entail more um material uh and visual clutter. So I don't know where that leaves us. Um we had at one time talked about just frameless fixed IGUs um uh where the door would sort of be framed and supported at the top and bottom. Someone mentioned that that was possible and that would eliminate some of this. Um yeah, I don't know if that's helpful. Oh, the original idea of doing one fixed historic door and one that opened with having like a simple metal door behind it,

right? I mean, there is that too. Yeah. Yeah. That might be better. [clears throat] Well, you said that uh what is the the custom aspect that presents the uh timeline as far as steel door

uh the it being uh out swing with sidelights like if so I'm going to answer that but sort of ask a question as well. Are we open to the idea of the width? We might leave the opening, right? So, it's 8 feet wide. I think it's just slightly under eight feet if I recall correctly. Um, but eight, we'll call it 8 ft wide, but frame in slightly inside of it. Getting custom sidelights that fit to this exact non-standard dimension. That's part of that plus the outswing aspect of it. I like found some that worked but they only had in swing with fire code fire. Um

we I we talked to like it wasn't quite 20 but it was like more than 10 but probably more than 15 different supplier manufacturers really trying to chase it down. So the issue is the sidelight, not the door. That would correct. And so so this goes a little bit to a question I was going to ask is like what if the opening remains the opening but what is but what comes into the door frame is framing not side light because I I sort of heard I think Kate it was you commenting on the amount of vertical members and that would reduce the sort of like the vertical banding

a thicker frame is that kind of what you're saying like solid more solid frame. No, not more metal, but uh wood framing inside the opening. So, it's sort of like bring the wall in. whether or not you bring the siding in. I mean, if we were going to do that, I think then then you it's even easier to just rebuild the existing style in wood and have slightly smaller wood doors that look like the originals and maybe are 6 in smaller and therefore lighter and easier to operate with lights on its side

with just I mean, if you're you're kind of saying like shrink the opening by increasing the amount of of trim for for you know something like that. And and there is kind of big bulky trim on that front door all the way on the other side of the building. Like that's pretty wide plank trim around that door. So, you know, doing that or something. I still think um the answer is then new wood doors that look like the originals in style.

It's kind of a twofold thing. Well, I I mean, but you know, the issue there is that uh the existing doors have only top top half of it is glass.

Yeah. Yeah, but I I mean, listen, at the end of the day here, we there is no nobody could buy or rent this space with the assumption that we need this to be lighter and we're only going to do this if we can get through big glass doors because there's no guarantee, you know, by this board or or anyone that that that would be the case. So, I kind of think that's a non-issue. Personally, I understand that they would like it to be brighter in there, but that is not something that we need to consider at all. And as this stands, I I would not be I I wouldn't be able to approve this with the sliding doors. I just think it's visually way too cluttering and steel is out of the question. Price lead time. We're back to aluminum. I do not think aluminum is suitable for this. I do not like the the sliding doors. I would I think the only answer here to move this forward is to do new wood doors the same style as the existing doors. Whether they are able to shrink a little bit that makes it somehow easier to operate. I think that's another conversation that we can have. But in my opinion, that's the way forward if the aluminum is just hard. Maybe that was sort of hard for us in the beginning as well. And if this was like a different a different system here that maybe this could work too, but it's not.

Well, Um, the one suggestion that I would have because your concern as far as rebuilding wood doors to match the existing uh is how heavy they are. Right. Well, but we're Todd was just saying if if that's really the issue and the doors to shrink six inches on either side to make it and they're going to be better because they're going to have new hinges and all of those things. Um, well, then that's okay. And you could bump out the trim a little bit. No, I mean what I would suggest is maybe pivot

and and bring the pivots further in so that in fact the edge of the door becomes sort of the sidelight when it's open. Yeah. Yeah. In other words, instead of this, if he had the pivot here and you know, basically when this swung open, it would be Mhm. like that. Yeah.

Like that. and the the existing doors then become decorated on the inside somewhere. I don't know that I can promise that.

Well, I mean, is that a viable option? um you know doing a a wood door which becomes the weather door I think. So a couple things I'll point out. Okay. Uh, so because this gets into into answering that the like I don't know if you've gotten up close with those doors, but there's like it's just a it is a plywood base, but like I guess the question I'm asking is we want these to be like built nicer than the ones that are the historic ones.

Yeah. Like I'm pulling up. Yeah. cuz they because these are the Yeah. So there's no really good way to open. They're they're sort of in heart. They don't have the X's. They So they've got plywood. So what's been on them for a long time is plywood on top of this on top of the X.

Right. And so that's what's like there. Sorry. If they're not operating, then we can remove that and like reveal or I can leave the plywood there for the historic character. It's it's not original. It's a weathering sealing up after effect, right? Um, and so if the ask is

Yeah. I mean I because because the doors are plus or minus 4 foot. Mhm. So the question really becomes uh if we use a pivot hinge and and the openable portion of it is three foot then you don't have to build uh build out the um sidelight. The sidelight. Yeah. And um it just becomes the door and that should make it easier to open. Do

Are you talking about new wood doors now still or are we Yes. Okay. Just with a different hinge style and a different sw a slightly different swing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, would the board allow me some leniency on precise like light sizing spacing if I'm in the approximate, you know, six over I don't know what the phrasing is here, but a six light door in three over three styling. I I don't have any problem with that. I mean

like matching that starting to try and match an exact thing that's not

agreed. I mean, you know, the in historic preservation, if you're if you're um you have one option, you try to make it as respectful of what was there as you can. But to try to duplicate it uh at times is discouraged because then uh you know it's you know it's it's a phony uh replica of what was there. So the question then becomes where which way do we lean? And and so I'm willing to allow some latitude as far as the the door configuration. Um, if we get something that looks like the door,

but it's not. Yeah, I don't think I think like within a you know, a couple inches for the glass is fine. I don't think like adding 12 or 16 inches of glass, but keeping it six six lights. That that's a that's a bigger ask. I think that would take more consideration. But as far as this meeting goes now where I am, like the answer to that would generally be yes. Within a couple inches, I think is fine.

That's me. Just wrote a note. I don't know who's taking it, but just recreate the historic configuration and match the dimensions and profiles as closely as possible. that that's sort of what I was maybe do a pivot. But I think we do really need I mean it would be great to see this though like when you're when you're actually if you have someone making them. Yeah. And the details of their own and whatever hardware you're going to whatever p and I think the X is you know if that really is plywood and and this is what's below it you should do that.

Yeah. without. So, do the detail that's below the plywood. Even though the plywood's been there for 30, 40 years, the plywood was just like a It wasn't recent. It's It's got a Yes. I'm fine either with whichever way your answer is. I'm just giving you the thunder. Well, we peel on the inside. You can peel back a little bit and it looks like it's this. That's why we do it. But it could be it could be this. It could right. It could be a different detail on the inside. You don't have that. Yeah. So I think the point is to once you remove the plywood, whatever sort of detailing and profile is there. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Okay. And are we pretty much in agreement on that? I think so. Kate. Kate. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Yep. Away. Yeah. Yeah. I was struggling with it. Didn't feel right. Okay. So, we're in agreement that basically we're going to try and recreate in wood the the weathertight door.

Mhm. And uh if possible, if you could uh you know keep some of that historic fabric as ornament somewhere, we would appreciate that. I can keep them. I can't force the tenant to put them up inside, but I can keep them. Well, and landmarks in New York City makes you keep things basically. Yeah, you got to wrap it up and you got to make sure it's there. So, I would request something like that if they don't want to display it as art. This is kind of Yeah. of a cat. It's a book. When you beame is that I'm happy to match that. Okay. So,

this Yeah, I I I don't think that we can vote on this today even though we tried. Uh but I think that we've got uh you know we're certainly a lot closer and um I think that if you come back with this the other information that we need on uh our regular meeting which is in two weeks. Okay. I think that we can we can vote on that. Is it so in this pathway that has me building custom doors?

Uh, how do we feel about a vote and and I I hear everything you said. A vote that if I can achieve that that's h that's approved. Then I can if I can go get it started and approved. If it's approved, I can go get that started. Assuming I can get that done. I think I can. I mean, there are people out there who built doors.

Well, okay. Okay. Here in lies the problem is that with the guard rail that wouldn't have been a problem with the doors. That is a problem because there are so many different permutations and combinations. And I I think that um question is whether or not uh how does the board feel about giving a conditional approval at this particular point um for everything but the doors.

Uh we didn't talk about the sign yet though. If anybody has any opinions about the I I is this whole area considered Angie's property? I was trying to find the guidelines of of what percentage you have? The sign is not part of this application. It is. It is. The sign is part of the application. It is. It's a It's a square footage per lady on Main Street since Well, we don't even have Well, we don't have details on the sign. All we have is this one image of the elevation that shows the sign on it. Do we have anything else?

The the new painted wood sign lettering. Mhm. I have other examples in town as examples. Like the cheese store is one. So they'd be dimensional wood letters that are painted black or uh I think it's a a light color, but yeah. And how far will they how far will they stick out? Uh I I I think that this I think that this needs to be redrawn with the doors the way that that we are planning.

Let me understand that. And ultimately yes, he he'll do that. I guess the question is is that u you know aside from the doors, do we have a clear understanding of what we're going to get? And I I I think well yeah I mean you know talking about the cap of a of a post oh with the railings and what they look like and in this area

I think it would be helpful to have more info. So for this sign I like the idea that it's wood. I think the cheese shop is a helpful reference that's on a flat wood backing where this is on siding. And so understanding how the two elements come together will be helpful. what the hardware is, like is it off the wall or is it insets? Um, and then I I know the percentage ratios that we usually deal with. Um, and I understand Angie's is taking up like 3/4 or more of this ground um floor, but the the door and the signage to me read as the sort of right shed portion of the building. And so the sign looks really large for that area like it's taking over. I don't think I would want it, you know, to be that much smaller, but I think it would be nice if it was proportionately a bit smaller. It just feels aggressive as um shown here. I agree with I agree with Kate. And I think that shrinking that a little bit because right now the kerning and spacing of the lettering the lettering it just it reads as off center because of that big swoop in the A to the left on the left side of that A it it makes the rest of the word feel off in terms of spacing. And I think shrinking that down and having it centered over the door um would help. the the way that it is now, it it feels a bit off to me. But again, I think seeing this, you know, drawn correctly with the exist with the doors that are going to be installed would be helpful and shrinking it would be helpful.

Just a followup question. So, it is centered over the doors. Now, so that's what kerning like kerning is the spacing of lettering and it's what if even if it is centered, it looks off. That's that's what kerning is in in in lettering. And that's that's so it's about kind of making it feel and look centered even if it's a little off. And right now it may be centered but it looks off if they want to maintain that a large a uh if there is a line under the rest of the word. In other words, if there's something like this. Yeah. Would that work?

I think that would help. And maybe shrinking the rest of the letters a little bit would also help. But I agree with Kate. I do think it's I do think that it feels quite large. So we also what is it what is the sign made of? Uh wood. Painted wood. Painted wood. Is it a wood board or is are each individual letters wood? Each individual letter is wood. And I've got some of the reference images of it like studio to uh Tashgo is has the same um sort of they sit out on pins. Okay, this is sort of your point like they the letters sit out on small thin pins coming out of the um

the sighting. Yeah, that could be lovely. Um and then and each individual letter is its own piece of wood. Okay. Thing. Um so um I I think there are just too many issues to be addressed. Okay. Um and basically uh it's two weeks, right? The 17th. I will not be able to physically be here. I will be Who are we going to beat up on? I mean

I know you've had so much fun with that lately. I will be on that day. I will be in both Florida and California. Um well then you can meet up with Todd and you know um but I can still do Zoom but I I just won't you know you can't throw things at me so he's like you'll just damage the screen. Um, can I recount? I want to go back through and make sure we we sort of got the things what I know. Can you Sorry, before you do that for the list,

there is a prior approval for windows and electrical outlets and lighting and that was prior to us having the design in hand. And so I know you currently have two outlets like really close to the front door. There's some stuff going on there and I'd like to see those in the drawings. And I do think that that at least one outlet next to the man door needs to go away. Next to the which door? Just say that again. The man I said the man door, but like the original door on the left. It will be on the on the ramp in the egress passage.

Show outlets. Thank you. I do, but I also want to sort of like just go through and make sure that I've like we captured everything. So, um railing details. Uh so that's both caps. Were there other questions about or door hardware? Do we do you have the decking material called out?

Uh we do it may not be on some things have been dropped between all the different versions and all the like notations. So it may not be on these notations. It says here new wood railing painted white. New wood fascia painted white. Yeah. But it may not no longer name the decking. Um, but it's wet. It is wet. Um, TX 1x6 transcend lineage sticking

composite. Yeah. So, it's not what it is. That was the plan.

Okay. Um, so on the sign on the sign shrinking. So right now the dimensions are 2 foot 4 and 1/2 tall for the total from the bottom of the A to the top of the letters. And you're I mean it needs to shrink proportionally, but you're sort of saying like if it shrinks down and it's probably like something like seven feet by two feet. That's approximately the right kind of like dimensions I think. I think a little inset from the full width of the door. Yeah. Or even aligning with the outside of the

Yeah. which is sort of so if it's at about 7 ft that versus eight it like that starts to do that

is that a it's not maybe their logo though it is their logo. It is their specified logo. So, if we're okay to skip the line, um, uh, well, what do you Okay, now what do you mean by skipping the line? You you I know, but I mean, does that mean that the the, you know, the letter shrinks to match those? No, this is their logo. It stays the same. This is what's on all their packaging, everything. Okay. So, it feels like we don't shouldn't mess with their logo. We can tell them to make the whole thing smaller. You mean to tell me what we can't direct people how to

There's no art directing for for for that type of design. Um Okay. Uh great. Cap detail. Uh the the fascia board on the front of the brick where we settled was a onedimension board the whole way across that marries in with the um marries in to the the deck on the porch. So you'll have a 14 height ended up with an 8 inch height. Oh no, we decided on that clunkier detail I think. Yeah. Oh yeah, actually we did because the the building

Okay, the things that are funky wonkier if the ramp concept works. If not, it's the lower. So if the ramp doesn't work for other code reasons, it's the lower platform with steps, which uh well I I really have a problem with that because you know uh you're going to great efforts in order to make this handicap accessible and then you put in uh

two two risers. Well, but I think that could probably be figured out by the next time you come. Yeah, because it's in two weeks you can look at the code. Okay. Really find out. All right. Well, it's just that that you know, you're making a lot of uh changes in order to be able to provide handicap accessibility to this Yeah. uh facility and you know and then throw it away right here. Yeah. Or do achieve it with a clunky piece of equipment. Yes. Well, I I mean, where is that where's that piece of equipment stored? You're talking about a 20 foot

I think it sits there. I think it stays there. It stays there. Yeah. But then that's a a ramp on top of another ramp. What's What does the uh the two risers do? But in other words, it's not a ramp. This wouldn't be a ramp in that version, right? That's like a I know. I know. But you we're talking about from here. Mhm. So where is the the the the piece of equipment that would cover the two steps? Is it here? Is it here? No, it's tucked into the building. Something like maybe not that far. Maybe.

Well, it would be that far because you're talking about 20. This is 24 and it's about 10. So it's right. Well, it it would be 20 because you said it was 10 inches up. So, uh it So, every time they get flower, they would have to Right. Right. But, you're correct. It's 10 foot. So, you know, it it would be something that goes like this. And someone in a wheelchair would then have to come through here and then go around like that. or like that.

I hear your point like let's make the ramp work if we make the ramp work. I think is the big thrust which I'm all for. Um uh we like the bricks, we like the peers, we like the like all the sort of underfooting pieces worked on the doors. One thing we talked about in the prior version was if I could take the actual historic I don't know if this is feasible but if I but I'm going to explore two options on the actual doors because I think we've we've pushed [clears throat] away from the sliding door right

concept. We saved you a whole bunch of money right there.

The sliding door concept. Um I don't I I think we may lose it in the building new doors, but but that's not what like I I do want to help achieve the goals. I mean, I'm all for it. Um so in that if one option is total brand new build doors, right? And thus I I appreciate your note here sort of like get as close as you can and whatever. The other is that these historic doors sit inside a custom welded frame that is a box like a imagine a C channel frame that sits around these doors. They are four you know roughly four foot wide by you know seven or eight feet tall. Imagine there's like a picture frame that's sitting around it that is welded steel and then that is

currently

there isn't one now. No, I'm I'm saying if I if I have one built that is essentially C channel. So it is use my laptop here as a door. So it is cupping the door all the way around but only extrudes in an inch or two into the door plane. And then that new frame is the thing that gives an old door that can't otherwise withstand structural stuff, the structural integrity and the opening closing and gives the clean edge for a frame to sit against for weathers. If I can achieve that, I do not know that I can. Is that is it worth me trying to chase that down? Well, I guess the question is is that u if you're building a wood door to to match the existing as much as possible, why do we need the steel frame? I'm I'm hearing you

he was saying if he can salvage the these historic doors and the way he would salvage them is to create basically a frame a steel frame around them that would kind of let them keep them in and then they can I don't know if I can do that but if I could do we like that

well okay because I I I just have to wonder how how viable that can be. In other words, um, if the existing doors are in so poor shape that, you know, we were contemplating this, what makes you think that you can fix them up enough to make them weathertight in a steel frame? Part of it is the the weather tightness, not of the like weather tightness here or here, but at the edges because they aren't they're all beat up around all the edges.

Uh, and the essentially the structural integrity because they are heavy like when you move when you move and swing them now, it doesn't feel like it's like holding itself together really well. like you couldn't do it a lot a lot all day long back and forth and it won't hold up to that unless you give it some other structure that is the thing that's giving it structure. Okay, that's my thought process. Um I I'll give you my my thought. Uh I think that if you can if you can reuse the existing fabric all all the better. Mhm. [clears throat] Uh, I'm not holding my breath on that.

And it really does depend on like how far down you need to go, right, with a steel frame. Like how how much Yeah. Like Exactly. Yeah. And is there like a like two inches, three inches? I think you should draw it like, you know, cuz then in this, you know, cuz then you're cutting in here, but maybe you have to cut in there. I you know I don't know what what is actually possible but it shouldn't be too much. Mhm.

Well, but uh I mean what it could be is that if it if let's say it's an angle uh then you could probably do it on the inside and it wouldn't be that visible. In other words, if most of it is on sits on the inside and only some of a lip sits on the outside. I got the outside, you know, lip And um what you could then do with that is that uh the concept of the pivot hinge off the metal frame frame a lot better. So,

seems like there's appetite if I can try to keep, you know, require like a very adventurous carpenter for a very experienced historic fabric. Well, and and and the other thing is is that you can do that to the door, but then you're also probably going to have to do that to the frame. Yes. That So, what that would be is a steel frame. So, it is a wood door with a steel frame touching another steel frame. You're right. It could start to get really clunky really like with all of those layers.

Well, and not necessarily. I mean, you know, uh realistically, if you have a steel frame door budding up against uh a wood stop, that stuff is not going to last very long. I think it would be help if you want to explore that route. I mean, if you want to do like option A, option B again, where one is recreating the doors and matching the existing frame and all of those things or it's salvaging the doors, but you like really like we really need to have all of those little dimensions, I think, in order to make a decision.

Well, the thing is, for example, a typical uh Yeah. Oh, that this is this is his or yours? [laughter] You can draw on it. Okay. Well, I mean the the typical stop for a metal door is that you have the the frame itself and then the stop is a uh a C channel that is screwed in into the frame. So, that's a little bit cleaner. And and then you have the uh the region

and uh obviously we need to put in some sort of um flashing not flashing uh yeah flashing So I think in that version like what Alice like this is the kind of detail you would need with dimensions so that we would understand exactly how it's going to look. Okay. So where did everybody go? We haven't the meeting yet. Go to bed. I don't I think Todd is at I'm here.

Okay. All right. So, in two weeks we'll see you via Zoom. Yep. See? Okay. And do I is there anything else I need I don't need to update the COA application

other than the drawings?

We have the referral, we have the um uh the application itself. Um and so just the drawings and the drawings should be updated as much as possible. Yeah. And what I'll do is I'll issue uh I mean one of the things that we have uh decided to do is uh issue a notice for any action that we have done and so we'll issue a a notice saying that we're couple of steps closer, but not yet. Not there yet. So, but pretty close. Pretty close.

Um, side note, are you still the owner's rep for 37? I mean, I'm sorry, not the nobody's telly. Yeah. Okay. Um, because we just were wondering what's going with the painted brick. We bought all the stuff. Um, and that we like So, it requires a temperature. So, we bought this stuff that was more expensive, but like doesn't damage the brick as much, but it requires the temperature ring to be basically pretty warm, like above 60° and we just kept waiting for a warm fall day. And there was not a good warm fall day. So, as soon as it's above 60° for at least three days, well, yeah. I mean, a little bit subject to schedule's big enough. Yeah. What did you end up getting for the

uh I It's a weird thing. You basically you put it on and then you lay a paper over it and the paper has a reaction with the paint itself and then the paint like peels off. Peel away. Peel away. Okay. Yeah. Um so yeah, we did I did some research. I learned a lot about it. It is mostly all fallen out of my brain other than I just wanted to before we you know talk with somebody we great we already we got all the supplies. We're just then you know waiting for the weather.

Yeah. Waiting for the weather. I said it to Abigail as I came in here. I was going to get in my car. I was like, "No, it's only 25 degrees. I don't know if I even need a coat. It's like, don't call me today, you know." Um, thank you. I I think, you know, I'm trying, you know, this is like how it goes. This is how this processes, right? It's the best approach. You know, crash it until something. This is for you. Yeah. I'm going to take it. Well, I may take all of Do you want the others? Yeah. I just sort of assumed you What? Do you want to keep yours? No.

Um, do you do you want six copies of everything each time? Or can I do six of this and pull these and pull of this and then two of these and that's um What do you guys do with all of the full typically we just kind of pull them and

I'm happy to um Okay. Any commentary on the detail you'd prefer if the doors I find are not this whole dimension? Like is it bring the siding in? Todd mentioned using this kind of wide board trim to trim this. I I I think that um try to keep it as um as respectful of what is there. In other words,

it's a very thin trim there. Right. So you're if you're making custom doors though this is very large but I think that's sort of that was the building that was the machine top. Well it looked well this trim is like much more modern. Yeah it was not original. Oh uh overhead was a uh yeah the without opening,

but that's no longer there. Okay. Um, so yes. So stick with something more thin. So So it won't match this, which I'm fine with, but match historic. Yeah. Yeah. Match like the other trend as far as possible. Okay, cool. Okay, cool. It's gonna be really lovely. You know, it's a hard process to go through, but it really is going to be great. They also can like paint the doors a color, you know? You don't have to worry about color. And

a question for you all, and again, we're like technically off or whatever, but like these door these windows, I didn't end up ordering it because I went back and was trying to figure out if they were four over two or two. So, we settled that Is that is having that be a larger picture window an op an option? Man, [laughter] I I I would keep it the same. You want to permit it to [laughter] I would keep it the same. Cool. All right. Go call. have a great trip being in two.

I'll be in the country someday. Yeah, I will start in you the day before and where's that? So 7:30 is 4:30. Yeah, that should be I think the only challenge is there's a chance I'm on a plane then at this time. If if I'm if that's when I'm on a plane, is there an option for like a different daytime without We have to do it at night, I think, just for everybody's schedule. Um,

why don't you let us why don't you just email the group when you know you're late because you could also join and be the last, you know, at the end of the e the end of the agenda or something as well, right? If that makes a difference, an hour or something. And if I can move the flight or if like there's something that viable that works, I'll ship the cool thank you everybody. Thanks. Thanks, Brian. So, Todd, did you get see the picture? Did I What? Did you see the picture outside?

Oh, yes, I did. Yeah. Yeah, I sent it back. I screenshot it and sent it back to everybody and then put it on the Google Drive in the in the folder as well. Um, I think that makes it extremely clear that those are not the windows that were there a year and a half ago.

Well, I I guess the question is is that

can we can we put it also? Um, I can't I haven't I don't need to see it. I I I know it ex I Yeah. Well, I I mean just so that we're all looking at the same thing. Um No, I'm talking about the one that I took. I know. I don't have that. I can't get online. I'll text it to you, Lauren. Okay. out. Then I'm looking at the picture you took which shows the full window.

Um Abby, can you put the picture that I took up on the screen? Yeah. Good night and have a good trip. So, this is the picture you took. Yeah. This is the picture Todd took. And those are definitely different windows.

You want me to share my screen? Yeah. Go ahead. Sure you scream. Do you see the two pictures? Yes. Well, yeah, we have them here, too. So that's the picture you took on the right which was the small windows in the top and that's the picture on the left that is clearly a different window. Yes.

Um this feels like an open and shut case to me. There's no way in the world we would ever have approved what what he installed there. Like no way in the world.

Well, all right. The other thing is is that let's be clear as far as um do you have the the the other one the the the one to the right that I took. The the reason I'm asking is because these are uh at different angles and so while the one on the left uh looks longer, the question really is is that is it because of the the viewing angle or is it No, it looks completely completely different from the street.

Go. Okay. This is a totally different window. This like look look where this this stop is. Yeah. Which is here, right? And that's here. And then this window starts like all the way up here. And then there's a meeting rail here. There's no meeting rail here. Well, there's no meeting rail, but you know, we don't know what that black is. Is that a screen? It doesn't matter. It's not That's not There's like a whole new frame in here. That's like an entirely new frame.

I agree. There's a whole new frame. But, you know, again, if we're talking about comp making comparisons, if this is the uh the rail or the meeting rail for this small window and that's here, then certainly the relationship of this to that is not too far from this to this. And the question really is is that what is that? I I agree that that this entire enclosure is not is uh something new, but we don't know. We can't tell what that what is what this is. Is this a screen? We can tell.

Well, it's a if it's a screen or if it's glass, it doesn't really it it's kind of besides the point. If it's a screen, then it's covering a big piece of glass. I just kind of don't really understand why we're why this is an issue. We know what's there. We know what was there. They didn't do it with permission. I can for one I think speak for the board. We would never have approved this if it was actually put in an application to us. So why are we even having a conversation as if this is an any other issue than issue the violation and ask the building inspector to remedy it.

We don't give this kind of leeway to anyone else on Main Street, let alone anywhere else in the village. So why are we even why are we you know I just like we wouldn't approve it. It's a tiny window. You go from large vertical panes of glass, one over one double hung window to these are horizontally oriented panes of glass because they've shrunk the opening so much. It's just like it's it's that's what it is. Like there's nothing else to say.

Well, I I I agree. If the only thing that was added is this frame over here, is that something that we want to get into a fight about? They they added framework to the to the left and the right side and they shrunk the opening vertically as well. That's what I'm talking about.

Take a look at take a look at the the coursing as far as the siding goes. We got one, two, three, four. one, two, three, and I can't tell, but uh four rows of sighting. And and what I'm saying is that we're looking at it at different angles. And so maybe, you know, the issue is not really the the fact that this was covered up, but it was framed out, which is is clearly this entire enclosure here is not shown here,

right? because it was that but but it you know what what I'm saying is that this width is this viewed at a different angle. I I can't see exactly even if that's the case, even if they even if it's the same width and they change the

I I mean the the the issue is is that I I think that if we are going to challenge him as far as what he did, we should be clear on what on what the difference is and we can't just sort of uh you know off-handedly say, "Oh, you you put in windows."

I'm not sure that he did that. I I think that he he certainly there's no question concerning the frame. The question really is is whether or not the window was something that he added or was it there already. I mean even if you look at the upper windows then as I zoom out you can see the horizontal you can see the the horizontal split between the top sash and the lower sash. So, you don't see that here because it's not there, right? Well, you know, and and why is it not there? I mean, is it?

It's not there because that's that window wasn't there. That's why this is a vinyl replacement window, right? No, it isn't. It's It's aluminum. It's aluminum replacement window. I mean, I looked at a closeup at that photograph and and it's clearly an aluminum window. Okay. I I I mean I I don't Yeah, I don't know. If the rest of the board doesn't want to pursue anything with it, then I'm obviously the I'm not saying that we're not going to pursue it. I'm just going to say we should we should be uh we should be confident in what we're telling him. I guess all I can say is look at the photos and they're they're very much not the same. That's

Are you wondering how to word a renotice if that's what you're like so you could and and what are we trying to accomplish and what do we want him to do? Put it back the way that it was. Put a stop to what? Put it back the way that it was without the small double hung window. All right. So, in other words, what we want him to do is take the uh that um window trim and the window out and put in back one sash.

Yes, that is an option. That's that looks like that's what was over there. I mean, I don't I can't tell from that other photo, though, if that that was actually a double hung window that they just put a piece of plywood in front of. So, maybe maybe that's what it is. But I or it's a single light casement sash. I mean, at the end of the day, it's it's applying to do it the right way is is what it working through the process. that it's something that should read this as a an upper light of a double home window and not a new small double.

Okay. So, what is it that we want him to do to put back the the single sash? Well, I don't think we can I don't think that we can direct him. I think what we're asking him to do is come back, right? Well, he's come at all. He didn't come at all. So, and I think then we can he can say his needs and we can say these are our concerns and then we can come to some sort of compromise. But the I don't think we can ask him in a notice what what we would normally vote on like we can't just have this discussion now about you need to put back a single pain window right we can't do that

right but I I mean you know what we had what we were talking about is putting back what was there what was there I mean we don't know that and and so I think that what we need to do is uh you've answered my question as far as how we're going frame this. What we're going to need to do is say that what we can tell is that there was a change. What was there before? And um you know, do we want to have to get rid of this the the small double hung window?

Yes. Okay.

Yes. Because that is the thing that was installed without any kind of review or approval and how that gets remedied after that is what should be discussed and voted on before the board. And I think I mean I understand like you know I'm I don't want to be chasing violations either. I don't want to be like looking around and being the preservation police. I don't want to do that either. But I do um you know when there are like big changes to visible window that you can see from the street.

Right. Well and that that is my question. My question is really do we want to um is this something that we want to pursue and the what I'm hearing from you is that yes it it is well I mean when we all I'm sorry to go back but when and we've been talking about this for months and and I think the general consensus each time that we have spoken about it by email and in this room has been that yes we want them to fix that

which is why it keeps getting brought But the thing is is that what it was was Todd came back and he said here I got this photograph and uh as a result of this photograph it's clear that uh he lied to us

and that's what that's what we that's the approach that we were taking and my so when I looked at the photographs I wasn't sure I couldn't tell that there was a significant change and the question I now have is that I can see because I I got up close to it. I can see what it is now and certainly from the photograph it looks like uh it is a change but the question is is that do we want to pursue it? I that I'm not sure of because, you know, I don't know if it's if it's something that is that significant that what it's going to change to is is it going to make any difference? So, man, God, I got to get close. All right. So the question is is that we what we want him to do is come back to us so that we can discuss these windows. Is that what I'm hearing?

Yes. Yes. I think that Kate has said that in the past. I've said in the past. Todd has said that in the past. And really I don't know. I wasn't I mean we've also been like this has been on the the monthly uh report to the village board that I asked everybody to review. Like this is not this is not a new thing. Okay. Well, all right. There have been many opportunities to say whether or not we wanted to pursue it and like it's really it's hard to have this conversation.

Okay. Well, it uh on the notice that we sent him in September said the tenant says the smaller windows were installed before their tenency and he just replaced the plywood and trim because it was rotted. The board agreed that if new wood is painted to match the rest of the siding, the windows are acceptable. I know that's what was written and that and then almost immediately after that, this is how it went. Kate sent the Google Street View and said, "But those were that doesn't seem like it's true because look at this." And then Todd went through his old photos and found the photo. So like very quickly,

we can we just vote on whether we go forward with this. I I can't keep having this conversation in circles and I also need to leave. So, can we if if we're going to do it, let's vote on it. Otherwise, like we'll we'll pick it back up at the next meeting. Sorry, I I lost my cool before and I apologize for that, but I cannot keep talking about this. It has been like six months of every single every few weeks we're talking about the same thing over and over and over. So, it's it's clear that there's a difference. Let's move forward or let's not. If we're voting tonight on whether to move forward, let's do that right now, please.

Okay. because the the things that we had asked him to do he's done. Um Easterly fence tenant will investigate if consorts reclaim boards that match the existing in order to cover the metal post and brackets so they no longer visible. And he's done that. The faux greenery will be removed. And he's done that. He's he's reclaimed wood plank. So I guess my question is is that I I don't have any problem with going back and saying because according to what he said before he replaced the plywood and trim because it was rotted and we said it was okay. So now what we're saying it's not okay.

Well we just Lauren just said Lauren just addressed this Al like two minutes ago. She just addressed it. He said this stuff to us during a meeting. After the meeting, Kate went to Google Street View, took some screenshots. I went back and looked at my photos. He caught us in the meeting and we all were like, "Oh, okay. We're believing him at face value because that's what he's saying to us." We went back, we did our own research. We found contrary evidence. We presented it to the board. This is going back six months. That's what happened. So, yes, our letter said that thing because we took him at face value and then we went back and did our homework. Okay. So, what you're saying is that what has he changed?

He changed the windows and lied to us about it and said that he only replaced the the trim is what I'm hearing. Yeah, that's what happened. And we have photographic evidence that shows that those windows weren't the double hung aluminum windows that are installed, but they were the smaller double hung windows were are something that was that was added. Yes. Yeah. Okay. All right. I will send him a notice updating this.

Um, do I have a motion to do we have anything else to discuss at this time? No. All right. Uh, do I have a motion to adjurnn? Yes. Do I have a second? All in favor say I. I are we keeping these here. I mean, we can keep these at the village hall, right? And we bring them out like every Okay, I'm sorry. I would you Yeah.

Have you heard anything from the depot? Um, I sent them an email. I'm sorry, guys.