Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

I think just to get these people out of here tonight, the ones that are very contentious, I'll move the whole business from here.

Whatever. Yeah.

Well, it's early on. Okay, so...

How does this impact our school system? Oh, I know, I know. That's a big thing up the Cape with all these things.

How's it impacting? They're doing this with the Wall and Sill Project. Your mic is on. Okay.

Yes.

Okay. Good evening. It's 7 o'clock. I'm going to call to order the town of Winchester playing a zoning commission meeting for September 24, 2026. Rista is absent, and Charlene is absent, and they're both excused. Okay, so we'll do roll call.

Scott Eisenlor.

Chris Sanford.

Peter Marchand.

Lord Platt. Adam Guadalupe. So I think, Chris, your first night here, you're going to get thrown into a seated position. Great. And I'm going to seat Scott, too. What a way to start.

And John might be on his way.

John?

Yeah. You mentioned Charlene.

Oh, John's not here either. John's absent. Okay. So under agenda review. I HAVE SOMETHING I'D LIKE TO MOVE UNDER OLD BUSINESS ITEM B, UP AFTER PUBLIC HEARINGS ITEM A.

SO MOVE.

ALL IN FAIR? SECOND. OKAY.

OKAY.

WHO SECONDED?

I DID.

THANK YOU. WILL MADE THE MOTION. I MADE SECONDED.

OKAY, SO... WILLIE, WHAT WAS THAT CHANGE UP, SIR? I'M MOVING UNDER OLD BUSINESS ITEM B... YEP. UP TO AFTER PUBLIC HEARINGS ITEM A. SIX-B.

OH, OKAY, OKAY. AFTER 5-A. GOT IT. GOTCHA.

NOW WE'RE GOING TO OPEN UP THE PUBLIC COMMENT FOR ANYTHING THAT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA. ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY THAT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA?

SEEING NONE... CAN YOU SPEAK UP?

WHAT'S ON THE AGENDA?

HUH?

CAN YOU SPEAK UP?

OKAY.

Hopefully the microphones are on. So we're going to public hearing. This is continued. PZ-26-15, applicant Martin J. Connor on behalf of Albert and Melissa Landry. Location in section 415-41.1. A NEW USE TABLE PROPOSED TEXT AMENDMENT TO ALLOW FIREWOOD PROCESSING AS A SPECIAL USE PERMIT IN THE RR ZONE.

GOOD EVENING, MR. CHAIRMAN AND COMMISSION. MY NAME IS MARTIN COTTER. I'M A CERTIFIED PLANNER WITH OVER 38 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN RANGE USE PLANNING. AND THEY PUBLICLY THE PUBLIC HEARING HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN OPEN. FOR THE RECORD, JOHN COONEY JUST CAME IN AT 7.03, SO WE'RE GOING TO SEAT HIM, AND WE'LL GET Before the commission, you opened the public hearing. We heard comments from the commission. I believe that you had some public testimony in favor. There was no public testimony in opposition. And I do believe you had over 50 letters of support that were submitted to the office on... AND WE HEARD COMMENTS FROM THE COMMISSION AT THE PUBLIC HEARING, AND I MET WITH MY CLIENTS, ALAN, MELISSA, WHO ARE HERE RIGHT BEHIND ME, AND WE'VE ADDED SOME ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS TO THE REGULATIONS THAT WE THINK MIGHT ADDRESS SOME OF THE COMMENTS THAT WE HEARD FROM THE COMMISSION. Specifically, I think there was a concern about the size of an operation and the amount of wood that might be processed at one time. So we have limited under proposed subsection C that the processing equipment shall be no larger than 35 tons in size. And under D, no more than 200 cords of wood shall be processed on site on a yearly basis. And then the last thing that we added, which was a safety concern that some commission members had, THAT THE COMMISSION MAY REQUIRE, IF YOU FEEL IT'S NECESSARY, ON A SITE-BY-SITE BASIS, THAT THE PROCESSING AREA BE FENCED IN FOR SAFETY PURPOSES. SO WE'RE HOPING THAT THOSE THREE ITEMS THAT WE'VE ADDED TO OUR PROPOSED REGULATION WOULD ALLOW YOU TO ADOPT THE REGULATION. NOW, KEEP IN MIND, OF COURSE, that it be a special permit use. So you're going to evaluate on a site-by-site basis whether the proposed activity is appropriate on that individual piece of property. Right now, the people that I'm representing, they would like to be able to do it on a piece of property that they own. they know that if this regulation is adopted that they have to come in with a site development plan and they have to convince the commission that that's an appropriate site. But right now they don't have enough. There's no ability for them to make an application because it's not allowed in the regulations.

Okay, any commissioners with any questions?

Is there any reason why you didn't put any requirements that it be a certain distance from wetlands?

Well, we have to go through the Wetlands Commission, and we'll have to have a report from the Wetlands Commission before you can even make your decision. So we'll have to convince the Wetlands Commission that we're at a safe distance for any work that we're proposing to do.

So in violations that we have on any property today, we usually issue a written warning or a verbal warning and a written one. Eventually, a violation leads to a fine. Fines can build up. And then I'm curious whether or not, from what I've seen for businesses operating rural residential, it's usually on a lot that has a home occupancy or a residential home or house, right? Not vacant land. And I'm curious whether that's because it provides some intangible ownership of that person to maintain their property in a way that's safe and livable for them, right? And or is that some sort of a liability factor for the town to then, if something were to happen, that we can... you know, put a lien against the house to address any issues with the land. So I'm just, my mind was wandering on why, you know, the regulations that we've sought out for, you know, ECO 360, all those regulations require that the owner of the property would reside there or a home would reside there in the use of a business that's permitted on that land. So I was just throwing that out there as just an observation, and just curious if anyone wants to discuss that.

We do have some other uses besides homes and home-based businesses. For instance, you could have a greenhouse on that property without a house. So you do have other special permanent uses, which has become another special permanent use that somebody can apply for. It doesn't mean that it's allowed. We have to convince you that that use is appropriate on that individual piece of property. You review it on a site-by-site basis.

So do you have any language on how this complies with our PLCD?

Well, we had talked about that at the last I think the best spot is under the economic development section. I know that you're trying to be very business friendly. I was surprised I was watching HGTV of all things and several ads came on All right, so we'll open it up to the public. Anybody wish to comment? Do you have a question?

If you don't mind. It says 35 tons in size. Is that the weight of the equipment in tonnage or the hydraulic power in tonnage, right? Okay.

Well, I'll let the expert come up and talk about that because I have to depend on his expertise. But I do believe, and I think Peter knows a little bit about it as well. Outlandry, 419 River Road.

Thanks for sending us again.

So the 35-ton size has to do with the hydraulic pressure yesterday. That's what the ram can produce to split the wall. Yeah. Is that a, would you say, a six-way or an eight-way wedge? You could run, if you wanted on a 35-ton, you could honestly run an 18-way wedge. Eight-way? Eighteen. Eighteen. So box wedge. Yeah. You're running a box wedge. You're making pizza wood. That's what you're doing. Because they all come out. They all come out of a certain set. Well, no, pizza wood, you would use an 18-way wedge because it's all going to come out in a perfect square. And when it comes out in a perfect square, it's easier for the restaurants and everything to cook. I mean, that's a huge avenue in the firewood business. You want to use a bigger square wedge. when doing set process. You can do, I mean, you can do just straight blade. You're going to split it in half and then you got to work your pieces through. You can move up from a two-way wedge, four-way wedge, six-way wedge, eight-way wedge. It just, you can go wherever you want. It depends on how the machine is made. So like a home people or a low spreader, you're not putting anything in the way of that. It's not designed for that. With some of the the better processors. Really, it's not a processor because I looked up the definition of a processor. I am technically running a wood splitter. There's no process function to it. A processor is defined where it can take the log, cut the log, and process it all at the same time. I cannot do that. I am still running a traditional wood splitter. I just happen to have a log lift on mine so I can pick up a heavy log that I can roll to it, but it still has to be cut 16 inch in size, which is dumb.

Yeah, I saw the 35 ton. If it's hydraulic 35 ton, that could be a big machine, right?

Oh, yeah. Well, no, 35 tons. I got a 28 ton right now. So the only thing that changes with that is your piston size. So you're going to grow a little bit bigger barrel. So it takes the fluid, and it will grow a little bit more in length. But 90% of these are compact machines. They're not taking up a big footprint. It goes behind my pickup. You're not telling a processor not to go behind your pickup. You're just not.

I mean, some people do that. Some do that. I've seen some.

It's not kind of a guess. It should be trailed. They're not meant for accidents.

And I just want to touch on a few other numbers there. So 200 quarts per year.

That's rotating. It shows that 200 quarts rotating. Meaning? Meaning rotating. So everybody knows if you're going to sell seasoned firewood, I can't split it today and sell it to you tomorrow. You're going to be better than that, because that's going to be probably 22% moisture, and we've got to bring it down to anywhere from 15% to 12% moisture to make it could seize and burn a fire with your home. That's why they brought in kilns. Kilns bring your stuff down to 7% moisture, which then makes it legal to sell across state lines. There's already rules and regulations on how this works. It just depends on the person doing it and what they want to do. If I wanted to sell greenwood, I could just cut it tonight and load it, but that's not what we're doing. So it has to be a rotating, it should have said rotating cord in there,

So what you'll keep on site will be how much?

It'd be around $100 to sell. Okay. So you'd have to have a $100 here and you'd have to have a $100 here. This $100 would be to sell. Once that sells, you then stack this $100 and you're working on your next $100 for the following year to keep it in a flow. So that way it's not just all piled up and you... Looks ridiculous all the time. Like right now, I have 13-quart split. After you guys told me I could split again, there's 13-quart split there in a pile that's going to get stacked in the boxes. That'll be this week. It'll be all for one. I mean, we ever took advantage. This last Thursday and Friday, we took off. We worked, and I timed it. Just for principal fact. Timed it. We were able, in six hours between two days, to put 18 cords sitting there and cut. And that's two people working. That was three hours a day. Did we really bother anybody with three hours? Because that brings up something you guys brought up in the last conversation we had. This wasn't a neighbor complaint, was it?

No, it was not.

Okay. Well, of course, but it was brought up by Ms. Rista that, or I can't say her last name, I apologize. If it wasn't a neighbor complaint, we're kind of going to let things lie. And we're not going to go looking looking for things to kind of harp on. And me personally, I appreciate you guys sitting here and talking, and I love the feedback and the conversation we've been having. But by that being said, we should really play this all out until we get a neighbor complaining.

How long have you been doing this for? Six years. In that location?

Yes, sir. I can show you the text message from the first quarter when I ever sold it.

Because I still have the money in the basement.

Well, we're both in the basement. I'm very proud of that. It was a start to something that I believe we can do well at. And I... I totally agree with your side, too. So any day of the week, you are more than welcome to come on that property and see how clean I keep it. My kids go down there. And I know you have to look out for other people that may not do the same thing. That's where the big issue is, what happens. Can't you put a lien on a property? Yes. I'm pretty sure you can put a lien on a property. So there doesn't have to be a dwelling there. You can still do the same thing that you want to do.

without any wealth. Yeah. So I want to go back. Before we move on to the 200 court, how can we enforce that? Because someone could. You can't. Right. So what can we enforce for a number there in terms of? You can't.

You can't enforce it.

Yeah, yeah. So I think the ask was to try to limit a stockpiling of material, right? So at any given time, should we limit the amount of raw material that's there to prevent stockpiling? So how are we going to limit the two guys? And before I move on, right, what you don't want to do is say, oh, we're going to limit to, you know, I don't know, 40,000 board feet of logs, right? Hold on.

Hold on, please.

What you don't want to try to promote then is someone to come up there and put those logs there, process it, and then the next day deliver that, bring another. And now you have trucks in and out every day just to stay under that limitation. So you've got to understand what we're trying to figure out here is this is a local, so there's local people trying to make more money on the side, supplement income. trying to hire local people to work that business, right? So what can we do to promote that or prevent a commercial operation and also prevent a non-resident coming in, buying cheap rural land and putting up a commercial operation to then go log that don't even live here. They don't care about the land, right? And potentially devaluing the property to the extent that we cannot recover, right? So... Potentially. That's like the, we have to consider what could be the worst case scenario for our town and our residents versus how could we promote.

The answer to that is that that's why you would make it a special permit. We have to come up with a business plan. We have to tell you what portion of the land we're going to use, how much wood we're going to process, where on the property is going to get processed. And you as the commission, have to be able to, you have the ability to approve that plan and set hours of operation. You can put all kinds of conditions on that particular business so that you're comfortable that it's gonna be compatible size operation to the neighborhood. That's why it's a special permit. I think your planner can advise you as to how you can do that, but it's enforceable because the social permits gets filed on the land records and it's individual to that particular piece of property. So what might be appropriate for that piece might not at all be appropriate somewhere else at a different scale. So that's how you keep it at a scale that's not gonna cause a problem. It can stay under the radar basically like what my clients done all these years.

If I may, and I apologize, I'm just trying to not to get him sick. I like the 200 cords of wood a year versus trying to manage a stockpile size. And the reason I say that is because this is a business. They have to pay sales and use taxes. They have receipts. And if push came to shove and we got a complaint, we got some neighbor that came in and said, they're processing 500 cords over there a year. We could force them to furnish receipts so that we could see exactly how many cords they've sold throughout the year. So there's tangible, there's evidence, there's something in writing that we can use to look at how many cords have left that property. Whereas if we're trying to manage, and I get what you're saying, you know, okay, it's 200, you know, we're trying to keep it moving trucks in and out and, you know, That, I think, is a harder thing to enforce, whereas if you have a set number of reports, we can look at the evidence to see what they've actually sold over there.

Any more questions from the board? I interrupted public comments. I know, I know. That's why we want to make sure before we go back to the public. So does the public have any questions, comments, thoughts, concerns that you want to come up with? No? All right. So there are a lot of businesses that are allowed in rural residential. Some of them are quite big. We have a problem here where we have a lot of businesses that are flying under the radar. And there's businesses that should not that when they get called on and they don't oblige, they don't stop, they just continue. And we tried to stop them and then ended up taking them to court and everything. So I am torn about how do you make somebody that's been in business for six years and we try to make him legal, but we know there's other businesses out there that have been selling wood like he does more for 10 years and in a much bigger position. And we know there are other contractors out there, the different things in Winchester that nobody's complained about and they're just flying to the radar and they're there. So that's some of my concerns, so.

I think we're offering you the ability to regulate it rather than just going by neighbor complaints. We've given you a framework where someone has the ability then to come in and apply. And you then have the ability to look at that individual piece of property and make sure the operation that's proposed can fit in with that neighborhood and not cause a problem. I think it's, you know, now that it's been brought to your attention, I feel that we've offered, I think, a reasonable solution.

We have to figure out how this complies to our POCD for development in the rural area, which doesn't really address any sort of I went, I actually went through, looked for businesses in the rural area and, you know, we have some that are approved, but they're not in the POCD. So there's a conflict right there. So, uh, I don't know. The board got any, do you have any questions or any comments being new on the board?

Yeah.

They said you brought other boards.

I actually, I did one question. Um, not knowing the site, I've been to a few facilities like this and other communities, obviously there's going to be like mulch and other stuff that just falls off. Like what happens without that?

Um, so one, I have received for that. Do you settle that separately? Well, I load it into my dump trailer because I don't want to look at it. It's in my way. It bothers me. I load it into my dump trailer and I take it to the transfer station and dump it. There's no need for that to be sitting around because I've got to walk over it. That's just an extra thing for me to trip slip or fall on.

I could see less responsible operators bearing it.

Once again, if you have a regulation that people can apply under, those are all the questions that will come up during their site plan review on how they're going to manage the business. We're just asking you to give us something we can apply under. and then we can answer those questions on a site basis.

All right, so I guess if nobody, the board doesn't have any more questions.

You made me think of it when you said there's a lot of people doing this already and they've been doing it for years. And I was thinking, wouldn't it be great if we could figure out a way to regulate it? So that way, we can go after some of them in a more constructive way, saying, look, this is the way it's written out. But the other thing is, I'm interested to see what White Line has to say about it. well if it doesn't pass weapons and we won't see him again right that would come up when we when we look at the special permit if this is approved yeah that would be part of the special permanent meeting process i mean i was here on the board when we wrote the rights and it was a lot of work and um but you know i remember saying at that time you know they weren't perfect they were 99.9 perfect but they weren't perfect and we said look if something comes up you know we can always change

All right, so is the board comfortable with closing the public hearing at this time? I have no problem with it.

If you're okay, I'd be okay, because the only thing I would say is we have until November, and we can have our planner review the plan of development and bring back some input to the next meeting, but if you want to move forward, I'm good with that also. He could review this project with our plan of conservation and development and then tell us what he thinks if it's... I'm talking about our plan to review his proposal and bring it back to us at the next meeting. Then we can move forward.

I like that idea. Can you do that for us? Yeah. Keep the hearing open so that I can do that. Okay. And I think there was a possibility of a language change there for rotating 200 cores, rotating or whatever. We might want to make that change too in the meantime. We're back in two weeks, so it's not a huge delay.

So is it possible to carry it over for two weeks? Would that be too quick for you? No, that's fine.

Okay. So if we don't have to drag it out, I would like to see that happen. I'll make a motion to continue public hearing PZC 26-15.

I think we need, because it was 35 days already, I think we need an extension request from the applicant.

We're going to have an extension on the record, and I'll send you an email for that.

Perfect. Thank you, Mark. It's just 100 feet from side and rear property lines instead of more. It's got to have side and rear. Yeah, right.

It's got to qualify for both. Yeah.

So you made a motion to continue the public hearing.

I'll second that motion. And that's what the 28th?

Uh, yes.

28th on September 28th. Yep. Yes.

All in favor. So now we're on to PZC-26-19, applicant Deborah Addy, location 107 West Wakefield Boulevard, Zone HL, proposal special permit for a cottage food license. And for this application, I'm going to recuse myself and let the Vice Chairman handle it. Thank you. Make it out?

Yep. Come on forward.

How are you?

Peter, Mr. Vice Chair, you're going to want to seat Chris in Will's place.

Chris, you're going to be seated in Will's place, just for the hearing and for the next item. Yes, go ahead. You have your application.

I have an LLC, and as part of getting an LLC, I registered it as my home. So I was told that I needed to get the food license for my home. So I actually have a common certification license that is through a business that I know of. It's licensed to the state of Connecticut. I also have a bad times food license already. It's licensed to the state of Connecticut. And I just need to have the, I was told I needed to have the land use changed in order to have my LLC out of my name. So that's why I did that.

So no customers, no one coming to the home.

Nobody comes to the house, no deliveries of product. Everything goes to the commercial kitchen. It doesn't change my home or access or anything at all.

It goes to a commercial kitchen where?

Oh, okay.

Okay. Any questions? Members? Any comments from the public? Any discussion? Yes. Come forward, please. Identify yourself.

Yes. I'm Rob Steele, one of the neighbors, and I represent the Lakeview Townhouse Association. We share a tribe. Based on this written attachment, it says there will be no large-scale deliveries, which means there will be small-scale deliveries.

Mm-hmm.

Our concern is that deliveries made to the property with very limited parking and access that exists didn't have to come over our property to get there. And what we've passed out is examples of that. So our concern is parking and access. It's really nothing to do with what might be going on inside.

Nothing will be delivered to the house. and nobody will come to that other than Amazon, like we get now for regular things, laundry detergent, things like that.

With all due respect, this is what we had to work with, and it says deliveries will be made. It says no large-scale deliveries, which means small-scale deliveries or other deliveries.

Same as anything, that Amazon would be about it, and it would be... There's no commercial operations, so there's no trucks dropping off 50-pound bags of flour or anything like that. Everything is sent either to the commercial kitchen or I pick it up myself.

With that said, what if we feel that that is occurring? What would be our recourse and who would we go to?

Mr. Green, our zoning enforcement officer, you would be dealing with him.

And what would... We have to provide if we feel recourse is necessary.

If you were able to present pictures of truck deliveries, that would probably be a good place to start. Just so you know, the enforcement process, the way it works is first a friendly letter would be sent that says, hey, we think there might be a problem based on the photo and X, Y, and Z. That usually opens the dialogue with the property owner and maybe we worked out right then and there if not That would be followed up with an official letter 14 days later And if the situation isn't resolved that after those 14 days then a daily fine would start occurring So that's the process quickly But again our concern is parking and access so when you say access you both share the cost of maintaining a driveway and

do you share or do you take share they own is the information i provided they own probably the last two bottom two-thirds we own the upper third and the entire top it's a crazy property yeah when that was subdivided it's crazy sorry when that was subdivided it was oh yeah crazy i'm familiar with it

Yes. Okay. Thank you. We'll take that into consideration. Anyone else from the public? Comments? Discussion? Yep.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah, I understand.

The vehicles you see are their guests and their vehicle.

That's nothing we can address.

But the problem is they get some delivery where those deliveries are going to go. Up the direct way, on Howard Lane, to their house.

Understandable.

And so that is our concern. We already have that issue. And it will continue to... So it must be then when someone comes up, gets out of the car, goes in the house, run up and take a picture to prove.

It was our enforcement officer. That's the person to talk to.

I mean, we got to pound them that they're using our land to have this.

Is there a way you could illustrate here? to show where.

Well, the driveway coming off of West Wakefield is paved all the way to the top.

Yes.

And then when it turns left, you're the first, second, third, or fourth house.

Yes. And the land behind there, too, right next to their house is ours.

Got it.

And that's the issue. Their vehicles go there.

Are there access easements on file that allow that?

No. And you see where our house is, we're the fourth one down. I have a picture there to show. I have to back all the way down to that part to then go down the drum. And there are always vehicles there. They're gonna have deliveries. I know what they're saying, but what they actually do is another issue. How are we going to, you know, here, It's at the other end where we are. We're the fourth one, closest one to me.

So really you have access to the first three houses that are using the driveway back and forth, and you have to pay for it if there's any damage to the driveway.

Yes. We pay for it, but you see their vehicles. They don't use their driveway to have it. deliveries or anything. So to have a business on top of that, I can only imagine what that would do to my ability to back up, get into that area. Besides, are we the ones liable? Because it gets icing there at the top where they pull in their vehicles to go in their house.

So you plow and sand it because you have to do that?

We plow, we sand.

So you have no choice. You have to do that for all the residences on that driveway.

The four of us, it's our property.

Okay.

So we do it.

Okay.

We take care of all of it. And we pay for it 100%.

I think I would have purchased something else.

Well, easier said than done.

Yes, I know. Okay. Thank you for your concern.

Any other comments from the public discussion? Members of the board. Yes, I am. Thank you.

Is there anything on the title that says that the driveway has to have access for those other homes? What was the question? Is there anything like one of... We have deeded access. A deed that says that driveway has to have a license for other people to drive and access there. I can answer that.

I just know we each purchase had a deeded access.

Yeah, so usually when there's like a shared driveway situation, there's something, there should be something in the deed that says... With this license to let, you know, because people have to have access to their house, and if your driveway is the only way to do it, they usually deed it that way. And I'm just interested to see how that's in the deed, written in the deed. Because obviously that's the only way they can get to their property. So there has to be some kind of legal... Because you can't certainly say, hey, you can't use my driveway anymore, right?

Well, I'm sure they're capable of using it. The only question is if it goes into a business-type situation, are they allowed?

Right, I understand that.

Or do they have to start chipping in for their part? And we don't have any of that from anybody, so I'll throw it back in the chair's corner.

I have a question. Is this happening now? Are you baking and doing things?

Yeah.

So walk through, like, what deliveries are happening now?

The only thing that comes to the house is containers, like containers, like we buy them at Restaurant Depot in Waterbury, or might as well buy them at Restaurant Depot on the way home, and he'll bring them into the house. And how do you bring them into your house? Carry it into the house? Into the front door? Into the front door? Or to the garage door?

Never.

I don't own a business in my home, so what is a container? I don't know what that is.

Just a plastic container.

Like yeast, flour, like what?

No, just a small container like this. They come in a box of 200. They're plastic, and you just open them up and put a piece of cake in there and close them up.

and you could hand carry all that stuff.

Yeah, it doesn't even weigh 10 pounds.

The bulk box, roughly how big?

That's the biggest box we get from grocery. I don't even buy large boxes of flour and things like that because I don't have enough business to facilitate a 25-pound bag of flour. I buy a regular grocery-sized bag of flour, sugar, or whatever it may be, and that goes straight to the straight to the commissary kitchen.

So that doesn't mean that... And you do this once a week for your customers? Yep.

Usually on Fridays and then Saturdays I bake in the morning and then I have pop-ups that go to different places, mostly the brewery on Saturday and Sunday. But everything stays there. I have everything right there. So all I have to do is just grab a handful of napkins or whatever I bring with me that I don't have up there.

How often would you say you

I get a couple a week, but it's mostly home stuff. It's not usually my stuff that I get for the businesses from the restaurant people or Costco.

Any other residents that live there, are they year-round or just summer?

There's only one that's year-round.

Any other ones are just summer?

Yeah, there are quite a few people that live there.

We conferred with the owner. We're not speaking on our own behalf.

Everyone's back. It's an issue for all of us. We all have to back out.

It's a fair question, but I just don't understand that.

Honestly, you haven't submitted a lot of information to make it easy for us. If you had information from the other people saying, no, we're against it, then instead of one, it would be three of you is against one.

The letter was shared with that member. I can give you the email responses, which is what you have to do. We made several changes to what we presented you from every property owner. If that's what you wanted, which...

I'm just saying your case is a little weak. I would have brought that in to add three against one, especially if they're not year-round residences. It makes it hard for us to make a decision.

Would it be possible to have all deliveries made to the garage instead of going up the driveway? Because, I mean, that could be one of the conditions that could be placed on it if the members wanted to.

Actually, you have a box that's by the garage door that says, don't press on it. So the only ones that don't know are the ones that go to the top and go to the front.

And then that's something that could be enforced.

So you're talking about the house, the top left-hand side. That's the house, the brown one? To the right, yeah. To the right of the driveway. That's the house, the brown one right here? Yes. Okay, so it has nothing to do with the four of them, the four cottages that are there. I like that idea, going right to the garage.

Well, the garage, two-car garage, it looks like there. If the cars are parked there, why can't deliveries be made there? And it's all paved. That's her problem.

It's not big enough that you can't carry in between two-car cars.

I like that idea. I'm sorry, I thought it was one of the four cars.

I tried. Thank you. Any other comments? Anything for the public? I'm going to make a motion to close PZC, public hearing PZC 26-19. Second. Any discussion? All in favor? I'm now going to open up old business, which is PZC 26-19, applicant Deborah Addy, 107 West Wakefield Boulevard, Zone HL, special permit for home occupation for operation of a cottage food business. You have anything for eight?

Don't make me turn around and read that.

I'll zoom in for you. Okay. I'll make a motion to approve application PZ26-19 special permit owner Devin Addy, address 107 West Wakefield Boulevard, zone HL. Purpose, special permit for home occupation, cottage food license. One, in evaluating this application, the Planning and Zoning Commission has relied upon information provided by the applicant, and if such information subsequently proves to be false, deceptive, incomplete, and or inaccurate, this permit shall be modified, suspended, or revoked. Two, this application is consistent with the town's plan of conservation and development. Three, this application meets the criteria and standards of section 415-24D, special permits, special exceptions. All deliveries shall be made to the garage area and by small vans, no large vehicles. So when you say vans, it's like, you know, Amazon and things like that. Those are all vans. And no customers will visit the residence, assuming that there is no food or vehicle traffic introduced to the neighborhood as a result of this business. Can you read that again? I'll give it to you. Yeah, it's even better. How's that? Members, do you have anything else? A second? Anyone a second? Scott? Any discussion? All in favor?

You putting that last one in here? I just want to see what it says.

Yeah, I don't see it written down here, though. I've got it underlined. Oh, it's the underline. Oh, no, because you're taking the language right from her. No, it's underlined. It was language that was in.

So no customers will visit the residence ensuring that there's no foot traffic or vehicle traffic introduced to the neighborhood.

That was in what the residence submitted. The applicant submitted.

unseat chris all right so we're gonna unseat chris and i'm back and time is what uh 7 49. okay pcc 26 21. all right so now we're on to public hearings for pc C-26-21, Paul Sano on behalf of Winston Healthcare Incorporated, 115 Spencer Street, Zone TG, modification of existing special permit for affordable housing. Good evening. Good evening, sir.

Thank you. Paul Sano, Architects, Albert Sano Associates. A FEW TIMES, STARTING IN 2023. BUT FOR THOSE WHO MAY NOT BE AS FAMILIAR, I WANT TO GO THROUGH A BRIEF OVERVIEW AND BRING EVERYONE UP TO SPEED ON WHERE WE ARE AND HOW WE CUT TO WHAT I'M PRESENTING THIS EVENING. Oh, you have the existing server.

Yeah, I have your whole plan set up, so you can tell me which page you want to go to.

You know, it was the... The next one's fine. The next page. So, back in 2023, this is The existing hospital at the time was close to banking. It's getting closer. There was still some occupants there. But it had two access drives from Spencer Street. One that you access the rear of the property and the other up at the top, which also goes to the senior housing development. So at this time, we were proposing, That's the existing.

Yeah, go down to the next one. That's not the amended one.

Yeah, if you would, because I don't think everything made it into OpenGov yet. That might be part of it. More detail in there. I don't think it's been uploaded yet. Oh, okay. That makes sense.

That'll help clarify it. Then my notes will match. There's three of them in there, but the one with the data on it, I think it's at the top.

It's probably this one. So that was the existing survey.

It shows that we have all utilities going to the site and that the project is fully served by our utilities. We had an office space. We had the maker space and the business innovation space. We actually had a large auditorium. And in the rear of the building, off to the left, you'll see that we actually had a two-level parking deck. And we had an access drive. We had 167 cars approved. And we had the drainage. that went through wetlands and planning and zoning, and this plan was fully approved based on the density that we had at that site. And the property itself was roughly 85,000 square feet. And so then what we did is we submitted this to the state of Connecticut, and they said, we like your concept, we like your program, it's simply too costly. So we began an analysis to reduce costs. And if we go to the next one, I'll show you what we did, which was not submitted to you, and I'll show you why. So what we did is we removed the two parking decks, we eliminated the auditorium, so we reduced it by 12,000 square feet, we reduced the quantity of parking down to 125 spaces, and we reduced the impervious area. And as my site engineer had gone through and completed all the site engineering, We completed all our architectural mechanical drawings, submitted that to the state, and we would be coming back to you hopefully to say, hey, the state's all good with this, and we've reduced our scope, and we would be asking for amendment on that. Unfortunately, they came back and they said the same thing. They like your program, but again, it's too much money. So we revised it again, and that's the next one. So they said it's simply too costly for us to renovate and pay for that structure to be renovated. We would entertain a new building. So the plan that we're presenting right now is a smaller structure and reduced parking, and it is a new, completely new building. So that existing building would be torn down, and a new structure would be put in its place with a same program with somewhat reduced and revised square footage. So this is a rendering of what you would see if you would be standing on right now is the paved heliport area, and this is the view from up on Spencer Street. And this is of the housing portion alone. The next one, please. So when you enter the site and you actually go to the primary entrances, the brown colored rendering portion of the building is the entrance to the apartments and also an entrance to the Winston Health Center office, which is gonna be maintaining space there and for ownership of the property. And down to the right, there's an entrance point to the Veterans Administration, which is going to be on the property, and also a door to enter into the maker space and the entrepreneurial space. So this is an eye-rendering of, and then you can see from this stage, you've got two levels of housing above that. So this, drawing here is our current site plan. And I want to start by, if you take a look at the green dotted area, right in there, that X dotted area, that was our elevated parking area. And that green dotted line that goes diagonally down, that was our access drive. going all the way down to that corner. And so you can see when that was removed, that we got rid of an amazing amount of the previous area. And that red area that shows revised drainage, that is the documentation of the revised drainage area that my site engineer had done to show that we were draining the site in a much better way, in a much reduced way, and this is the plan that we were intending on coming in with. So this has already been designed, and it's not here tonight because it's changing again. And I did not want to present that and come back and say, by the way, it has to change again because of this new concept. This lower area where you drive into the parking lot, right into there, is still there. There's a fire access right adjacent to the building, which is that the center section. And what we're doing right now is we're parking in the area, which was part of the building footprint. So that parking that goes diagonally up to the left is actually inside the footprint of the 1957 building. That large retaining wall that's in there, that's separating the upper two decks, is the location of an existing retaining wall that we're hopeful to either keep intact as is or stabilize and retain it. So if we head to the upper portion, you can see that this building comes out and encroaches into what was once a heliport area. You can see the dotted lines into there. We're actually lowering the grade of that portion so that we can actually enter in on the opposite side of grade. Right now you have to walk up about four feet to get to that. So we're lowering that so that we can have an even grade there and we can have good access out of that level onto that lawn area that I was showing you previously. And also have good access down to the absolute lowest level. So this, So this actually is, so this is the new site plan. My engineer has not been able to have the time to do the engineering on this yet. You know that that needs to be done. He was presenting that. We just received word in April and have just begun working drawings on this. And we're submitting documents to the state of Connecticut again in December. and they've given us positive review. So we're moving forward on that. So we know that that needs to be taken care of. If we can go to the next one, please. So this map here is the example of why I didn't want to present that other zoning, that other drainage table, because you can see that The drainage calculations and the areas that were done did not take into account what is now permeable area. So this is all lawn area and natural area that is no longer pavement. So this new plan is even less denser. than the previous one that we were going to submit. So that's why I'm showing that as completed, but this new plan is even less invasive to the property than the last one. So this is a landscape plan, dumpster locations. The dumpster locations are down in the very bottom area. There's one along with a transformer and a generator right in through there. Those areas are screened and like what we did before. The other dumpster location is up on the very top left, correct, right there. We have some other landscaping that we're going to be putting along the edge of the hill, some more trees and shrubs, as we can show in that rendering. and also in the upper left hand corner where there's also a little bit more lawn area now than we ever had before. So we have that. So the next one please. So if you take a look at this map, the outline in red is the original hospital. So you can see that our You know, our building footprint is less. Our impervious area is less. We had an approved building of approximately 85,000 square feet. This proposed building is a little over 77,000. We had 167 cars approved, and we now have 97 cars. So we are, with the exact same program, just making it significantly less dense.

So can we talk about the parking? I can. You've got 0.75 spaces per bedroom.

We have what was approved before, and that was I have 70 beds at 0.75 and 53 spaces. That's correct.

Right. The current regulations are one, one parking spot per bedroom. So you're a little short.

OK. I was just going off of what was approved and amending that permit based upon the current language that we have.

You're increasing the number of bedrooms also.

I am increasing the number of bedrooms. I have 52 units now and I had 40 before. OK.

Need to come up with some more parking spots so if I can add a little bit of context to that because I you and I Corresponded earlier today, and I looked into all of that We updated our regulations to be in line with the latest legislation, which is one space per Single bedroom or studio two spaces for two bedrooms and above okay and based on your numbers and the office space and and the makerspace, which is light industrial, you would need a total of 99 on the site. 99. And you're showing 97.

I have 97. I calculated 82 and we had 97, so I need to put two more. I can find two more. I think you could probably fit two more. I can find two more. Yeah, I can find two more right now at the very end.

Under that parking, he's got, the VA's gonna be in there.

The VA is in there, yes, I have them counted at one space per 300, and we have 400, and I need 15 spaces for office.

That's your office calculation, yep. So yeah, that's factored in the office as well as the, I'm calling it maker space, but that sort of light industrial.

Right, and there's another space we'll get to as you get farther through here, I'd like to explain. One of your next drawings. Oh, yeah, okay. So I need 99, okay.

Question back to that access road that's going to go down to the lower levels. Is that going to be paved? Is that going to be gravel? What's it going to be?

It is all gravel. There was some discussion going way back now. There was some discussion with way back originally, even with wetlands, that they were concerned about access, or concerned about maintenance.

Maintenance of the sediment pond.

It wanted us to explore something, and there was something that was explored, but I'm not sure that it was fully submitted because we were in the process of revision. So what my engineer did is took that analysis and provided that access probe. So it has not been to you to submit it. I'm not making any claims about it.

We have no information on it.

No, you have no information on it. So all I submit as an interim step.

Because this will all have to go through weapons again also. Because you're adding that driveway and things like that. And drainage has changed. Potentially. Potentially.

Potentially. Potentially. I mean, I think that... are impacted significantly less, but they may need to see it. Yeah. Okay. So, okay, so that's the cards. Okay, so the next one. So these are, The floor plans, that smaller drawing on the left is the access point to the lower area. We have mechanical, and the mechanical zone is also where the fire connection is. This has been removed by the fire marshal. We were comfortable with that. The next level up on the residence side, that is all a grade now, okay? That's where the heliport is currently. And so we've got apartments right along there. And those two doors directly go directly to the exterior. That interior light orange space is part of the makerspace. This is where there would be some of that lighter equipment going on there, the metal, the woods, computers, things like that. The same program that we had last time but had a little bit of a smaller scale. Yeah, so this is the primary entrance. As I said, the apartment entrance is up on the top right into there, straight in. The office to the, what was it, health center is that dark green area. And that's the VA right in there. And that light purple shade is the entry level at the the entrepreneurial space, the business side of things. And then there's apartments all the way around that whole side with the one-story above the elevator. And then as we go up, it's a U-shaped structure with one and two bedrooms. The greens are twos, the blues are one, and the yellow ones

Let's go back to the last drawing. Last drawing. What's this networking space?

That networking space is what was in the, that's the business entrepreneurial space. That goes back to the original approval that we had. And that's basically what happens is it's, There's a lot of business development, a lot of classes, learning. This is just a networking space for people that offices come out here and they can just take a look at what's going on. People that are working on something could show something. So that program is still there. The larger space that we once had has been eliminated, the big auditorium space. And so now this is just the business space. So that's the sample. And then this is the upper level, which is basically the same as the lower.

And all of these are affordable, 100%? Or what percentage?

It's the same percentage that we have.

Well, now you have 52 units instead of 40.

Yeah, but I'm talking about the percentage of them. 50, 60, and 80% of area median income. And we have 52 units, so the ratio of unit would be increased. But that's the market.

So what's the total number of units that would be affordable there?

Is this all affordable? All of them. Okay. All of them. Yeah. The residence would be 50, 60, 80% of the way. Okay. What ratio of each one scale is proportional to what the tax credits have and whatever proportion. Yeah, you're doing the tax credits. Yeah. You're not doing it with a hog or anything. It's with tax credits. No. Okay. No, we're getting, this is actually going to be funded, the housing will be funded for the state government housing. Yeah, whatever that ratio is is what it is. So we have 52 units, and now we have 40. We go to the next slide, and you can see that's just the roof plan. We've got roof access by stairs and by apartments. The original height of the building as renovated was 62 feet. Our building now is 48 feet. We're lower in height and smaller in scale and density. So that's where we stand. We're currently working on documents that we're going to be submitting to the state of Connecticut. in uh in december you know we we know we need the full engineering we'll be back with that uh we still have the same program again but just at a smaller scale um and as i said we have we have a bit of a smaller building so this is the third application and we're hopeful that it's gonna hit their bill so far so far the numbers finances look good preliminary education is that they're quite comfortable with it. So I'm here to show you the latest plan and give you our proposal. And knowing that we have to come back with some engineering, I'd like to hopefully get some kind

Has there been any study of what the impact on the school system will be with this development? Because that's critical at this point in time.

I don't recall that ever coming up. I know that we looked at other things, but I don't know if that came up before. So I'd have to say, you know, we're talking about one- and two-bedroom apartments, which is what we're looking at.

Two-bedroom apartments, you have kids in there. Some kids.

Yeah. Yeah, some kids. Like the last one. Yeah. Yeah. Like the last one. There's an emphasis on veterans housing, but there's no restriction. Because if they're housing, you can't do that.

It's not age-restricted at all or anything?

It's not age-restricted, no. Nothing like that. But no, we were never asked to do any studies like that last time, so they don't exist.

That's true. So back to the set of drawings that had the green on it for the pervious surfaces. You've got a generator shown in that drawing.

I have a generator shown in there.

That's emergency power or what is that? You're not going to be generating power full time or anything? No, no, no. Well, it's a question. With electricity going up, you could be trying to supplement.

No, no, no, no. We absolutely are not. The state... likes us to include a generator. There happens to be almost a brand new generator on site. So we're going to utilize that. And it's there for life safety. It's not an emergency generator. We don't really need a fire pump. Although that may very well be an emergency generator nonetheless. But it is there to provide

life safety aspects of the project okay so you've got the generator and the transformer showing there yeah so they probably should be taken out of here

The upper level dumpster in the parking lot. There's no detail, nothing for screening that in or enclosures.

It would be the same as the other one. There's a landscaping plan that I think is after this.

Yeah, there's nothing on the print. It just shows for the lower.

Yeah, that larger scale document off to the lower left would be what would take place at both those locations.

Would be for both locations.

Correct.

Any idea how long before we'll see the engineered prints?

We're working on 40% drawings right now to get ready for an application and have it ready for the end of November. They may not be fully completed by then, the engineering, because he's probably wanting 40% when we get there. We can certainly show you what we have at that time. I would be more than glad to do that. We literally just got word in April, and quite frankly, I went through this analysis to determine the viability of the project and how things would be and how things would cost out before any of my consultants started. And they literally just got started because they couldn't until just a few months ago. So they had just begun work. I'm hoping for 40% drawings from everyone end of November. So we can certainly show you that. And we'll see if the site engineer can get farther.

So where are the telecommunications stuff going? Is it staying on the property?

I think some of it. Has to, yes, because some of it is active, some of it is not. Part of the company, one company went out of business and just left a lot of equipment there. But this is actually, you can see it on this diagram right here. So off to the left, that access road starts to pick up right there. Right there, there's a rectangle. That's the current building right there, which needs to get relocated to where I'm showing it right there. Their lines are going to have to run across the face of the retaining wall and up the face of the building. And then they're going to be, they'll have to be located on that stairwell. We can be on a tower or something. I don't think they'll be on the tower. They're gonna just be probably, and I'm not sure that everything that is there right now has to stay. We're in touch with them right now to see who's still active and who still needs something and what they're contractually looking for. But they would have to be on that stair tower. If you go back to that rendering, That one there. See that stair tower in the back left? Yeah. It would be up in there and I would have to put it on the back side.

Nothing on the roof then?

No, the people that actually went out of business, they were the ones that had stuff on the roof. They had stuff sitting out front. They had cables freaking everywhere.

I was up there. It's a mess.

It was stuff everywhere. But apparently that structure is not them. It is another company. So they still contract. We still put them there. But we now have control over, you know, much more control over that than we ever did before. Especially with one company gone.

How old's that current building?

So, go back to the site plan, if you could, anyone, and do, there you, no, no, no, you know, go back to the existing one, the first one. That'll work. Okay, so the upper portion, right up there with the pitch, That was built in 1902. The long rectangular going diagonally, that was 55, I think 57, I think 58, 57. There's a connector right in the middle, which was the Andalus area, that was 87. And directly out in front of that was where that circle is in parking lot. That's actually where the helicopters would land. So that's actually, it doesn't need a helicopter.

associated with renovating that structure is remediation.

There was a fair amount of remediation, but the reality was, I mean, and It's true, we came in and it was a prime candidate for adaptive reuse, right? And it was written up that way. Unfortunately, it's a very, very efficient plan for what our program and most programs would want to apply to that structure when you really think about it. It was working well as a hospital, but the proportions of that rectangular building made the apartments very, very challenging. We had a real large, our ratio of common area and common circulation space through apartments was very high, okay, which made it inefficient in terms of cost. So what we had for a gross building, our debt was significantly lower than it should be. And that was kind of the behind the state, saying, OK, first, cut some money. Then, boy, no, this isn't going to work. This is too much. And it's inefficient. And that's why they said, if we're going to move forward, we need to tear it down and build it. What is the useful life of a new structure being designed to? So... this is a uh it's going to be i'm not going to say the highest efficiency but it's going to be a very high efficient building okay so that means the envelope is going to be of a higher quality than what you might have with code which gives it a much greater longevity you know i mean i certainly see a lot of these buildings i mean other buildings that i've done 40 years ago that is still up in operation. And this one here certainly is going to receive 50 plus without even thinking about it. Because it's a very, it'll be a much more efficient building. So the longevity of that would certainly last. And any renovations that would take place you know, at some point in time would not be impacting the structure because it's designed in a much more modular, lack of a better word, you know, dimensionally from a structural standpoint. We've got two concrete levels. The lowest levels are part of the podium. The upper portion is wood. And again, this entire three levels here is going to be wood, but those two lower ones there, those slabs are concrete, so those have got huge longevity. Wide open spaces, so I would guess 50 minimum.

Anybody on the board got any more questions? I imagine also the site itself is going to be more intensity, right? So you're going to have a full demo going on, full demolition of the existing structure. Yeah, full demolition. I mean, that's not for us to determine, but you've got to mitigate all the dust.

You've got to mitigate all the dust. So you've got to mitigate it. You have multiple things going on. So you've got to mitigate the dust. First, you have to evade. You've got to deal with the dust. And that access drive, the upper one off of Spencer Street, it's got to remain operational and open for the housing of the boat. So that area there has to be completely open because there's traffic going in and out of there daily. So I'm not saying that it's the construction is going to be one thing, but the demolition is going to be also part of that problem. We had a good plan for construction, but there was a lot of demolition that was going on before, because the only thing that was going to stay was the structure. So even in that 1957 building, everything, it just would have been a concrete shell. So there was a fair amount going on there, and the same with the 57th section, and the entire interior of the 1902 building was going to be almost completely demolished now too, except for structural components. So there's a fair amount going on before. There's going to be more now.

Any questions? Anybody in the audience have any questions or comments? OK, seeing none. I guess I am satisfied with what you brought and the questions and how you addressed them.

We're just, let's see. Okay. I just got a question for Jeremy. Now we approve this as a special permit. It's still got to come back for us for all everything else.

It does. So what you're approving, what you're being asked to approve is the change. In the internal configuration, so from 40 units up to 50. Basically, the concept is all we're approving. And the concept plan. That's exactly right.

And that's the way I think it should be ordered.

Yep. Yep.

I agree with you.

And then you can have, as a condition of approval, final engineering plans come back for final approval. That was my concern.

Okay. So I make a motion to close public hearing PZC-26-21. I'll second it. All in favor. Okay. So now we're off to number six, old business. PZC-26-15 public hearing was continued. We skipped that. So we're on to the PZC-46-21, the applicant Paul Snowell, on behalf of Winston Healthcare, 115 Spencer Street, Zone TG, proposal modification to existing special permit for affordable housing.

You good, Jeremy? You good? In the motion to approve application 2621 Special Permit, owner of Winston Health Center, LLC, address 115 Spencer Street, Zone, Town Gateway. Proposed a special permit for modification to existing special permit for affordable housing to increase the number of housing units from 40 to 52, and to approve the conceptual site plan dated 992026. In evaluating this application, the planning and zoning Commissioners relied upon information provided by the applicant. If such information subsequently proves to be false, deceptive, incomplete, and are inaccurate, this permit shall be modified, suspended, or revoked. This application is consistent with the town's plan of conservation and development. Three, this application meets the criteria and standards of section 415, 24D, special permits, and special exceptions. And four, I'd like to ask to... see what effect this will have on our school capacity or what may be the capacity of children.

So with the final plans that come back, you want to... With the final one, the final plans come back, yes.

You want to... Yeah, school... School impact. School impact study. Yep. Regarding this development. Yes. And on those final plans, you want the increase in parking spaces also noted. That was discussed.

That's it. Nothing else to add? All in favor? We've got a second first. I'll second. John seconds it. All in favor?

Thank you.

See you next time. See you again. Can you read?

I hope that will be the last time. I don't want to redesign it.

Okay. Number seven, new business. All right, so under other business, we have this review of Eastman's River Source.

So you guys are probably aware that the town is in the process of redeveloping Three Meadows Street for a municipal parking lot. Eversource came to us sometime last year asking about the possibility of installing a gas regulator station on the lot or in the area. There's actually two separate pieces of property that the town owns. There are three meadow and an unaddressed piece where the little waterfall is. We are still going back and forth with Eversource as to where that regulatory station would actually be in that area furthermore the the town has applied for last week a remediation grant because this is technically a brownfield based on some releases that have happened in the location and So hopefully we'll get that money to help us with the capping of the site, which will be sufficient to take care of the remediation necessary. But basically, even though we're still going back and forth with Eversource, they would like to get this thing constructed this year because they already had it on their So we said, all right, even though we don't have the final plan, we will bring it to Planning and Zoning for a referral, which would then go to the Board of Selectmen, and they would still have to do their approval there. So that was a lot of information to throw at you. I'll be happy to answer any questions. These are, you'll see two concept plans for the parking lots here. First one here, and if you scroll down, you've got them both, right? Yeah, thank you. So there may be an impact there based on where the regular station would go exactly. But again, these aren't final either. No, what locations are they looking at tentatively? The areas in black or what? Yeah, so if you see that area in black, I think that's what they would prefer because it would be closer to the street, you know, less cost, so on and so forth. The yellow with the rear of it, yes. Yeah, we kind of prefer the back. That would require additional trenching on their behalf, so on and so forth. So we're just in that sort of back and forth stage right now.

So the site in the back, there's a storm drain on 263 that doesn't have a real drain pipe out of it. It doesn't go to anywhere. So it has a piece of PVC that comes out of it goes across the road and down the bank and it empties into where Eric's winterizing the boats and that water runs across that parking lot down the hill right where your site is in the back. So there's actually drainage water coming down that hill into that spot.

Okay. Again, these are not fully engineered plants.

But I'm just saying that's an issue with that. You're going to have to do drainage water there.

Yeah.

Okay. So that might impact. And is this going to be in the ground or above ground station?

It would be above ground. This would be fenced off, bollards for safety, privacy slats because it's not the greatest thing to look at. um we have requested maybe some plantings you know to further mask it as well so how would putting a regulator there affect the brownfields i mean isn't that supposed to be capped yeah so The entire area would be capped, including their regulator station. They would have asphalt leading to it. The pad itself would be concrete. But either way, this would be part of the remedial action plan that needs to get accepted.

Because they're going to have to dig across the parking lot for the piping. Right. At some point, they're going to run into contaminated soils.

Right, yeah. And the idea is they would want to get their stuff in first. Before they're removed.

doing some of our remediation right exactly yeah right it's the other reason we want it in the back you have more remediation they take more material away yeah yeah back's a better location than the right side yeah yeah visually visually and safety i mean you know right down the street across from basically it's it's going to be public works in the select that select the location because public works have to deal with this after the fact that's right

Yep. They, Public Works, had comments about the location closer to the road as far as, you know, that would be in the way of their snow clearing operation and so on and so forth. So like I said, those comments are going back and forth now.

So what do we have to do about this? Anything?

It's just an 824 review.

I'll make a motion to approve an 824 referral for 3 Meadow Street for Eversource for a regulator station.

Do we have a preference for a location? No.

I think we should leave that up to the select committee.

We can recommend the back instead of the right side. Was that food for food for thought? We could recommend the location shown here instead of the right side where it's by the waterfall. I like, like you guys said, I like it where it is. Yeah. To the rear. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

With the drainage themselves. Oh, with a recommendation that the rear of the parking lot, not that it holds any water, but it's, it's there. Put it on paper. It's on paper for the selection. All right.

I'll second that. Okay. All in favor. And now we're off to discussion of commercial type uses in the RR zone.

Eight we go to nine is approval of minutes. We're skipping B?

Yep, sorry. So are we going to bring this up again or are we going to let it cruise?

It's up to you. After the last meeting, you had asked that I do a little bit of research, and I did some. Not a lot of great examples to get in front of you, but I did give you four or five municipalities there that have sort of more intense home-based businesses in some of their rural zones. So I, you know, as I think it was the last page of the staff report, there's some links that you can click on. Some of them were ECO 360 links. Not all of them were. So, you know, again, I think it's I look to the commission in terms of what you want to do moving forward. I mean, you've got the application in front of you. That's going to take care of itself. But the sort of other businesses that might be out there and how you want to deal with them. I'll take my cue from you.

I think we know what Rista said, just ignore them, and that just promotes more and more people doing things without permits.

Potentially, it does. I think once you have this regulation in place, it gives us a tool if we choose to use it to bring those operations in line. Yeah, it's really up to the commission to decide.

So let's ask a question here. Were we with the guy on Tarfer Street that was doing all the stuff up there illegally?

We are done at court with him. He was given some fines by the court, threw our fines out. Those have been paid now. He's still in the process.

The fines to the court have been paid?

Or our fines. I'm sorry. We had fines on the record going back till, you know, before my time here. Those got thrown out. The court instituted a new fine structure. Those new fines have been paid. So he's compliant with that right now.

But is he in violation of any of our regulations presently with what he's doing there?

Not that I'm aware of. I went up there to inspect the property shortly after the last time we were in court and he had All the Nickerson equipment removed. He broke down the large barn that was built without permits. I'm trying to remember all the particulars, but in any event, he was compliant at that point. I have not been back on the property since then. I'm not sure if he would allow it, to be honest with you. He is no longer... building sheds on-site, it's likely that he is milling the lumber on-site and then taking that off-site to build the sheds in place, wherever those are, I don't know. But yeah, that's, do you have specific questions on him?

Lumber's from timber being cut on-site or being brought in and milled?

LIKELY BEING BROUGHT IN. I WOULD ASSUME THAT SOME OF THE TREE COMPANIES ARE STILL DROPPING LOGS UP THERE. SO WE WERE NOT ABLE TO PROVE TO THE COURT THAT THE MATERIALS WERE BEING BROUGHT IN EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS a good deal of evidence showing the truck traffic in and out. I guess we weren't able to show x-ray vision into the trucks, so that didn't really go anywhere.

You should pull up your GIS map. I know it's a year or two old picture.

Yeah, you can see the site has been decimated.

There's a very specific tale of what's going on out there with the wood debris that's being brought in. It's all being buried. You can see it very clearly on the town's GIS map.

This is going to be a rough subject. I just don't know how we're going to handle this because, you know, you drive by a cottage kitchen that's not permitted on Tarford Street further down just before the town line, and she advertises all the time. So you've got people advertising their businesses that aren't permitted. on Facebook and stuff. So how are we, how are we supposed to enforce these regulations or people? And this is what bothers me. People that have been in business for years. So I just don't know how we're going to handle this. I think this is going to be a longterm conversation before we come to a solution. I think the worst part is done.

He hauled out. I would have contractors talking to me saying he's hauling out. you know, 40, 50, 60 loads of material and triaxles, and I'm like, ooh, that's not me. I was surprised it wasn't stopped. It's not easy, though, to stop. And sometimes trying to go after somebody like that's a full-time job.

Yeah. It is. And that particular site is not visible from the road. So if we don't have access to the site, tools are really limited. I mean, we got aerial photography and we've got the neighbors, but as Jeff indicated, it only goes so far once you get to court. So I think moving forward, I think one of the things that you all can think about is, I gave you a few example regulations, I can try to find more of those. I thought Willington was interesting. Yeah, Willington I think was decent.

A tiered approach in terms of intensity for a business. I'm curious how they're doing on enforcement, given those regulations.

Well, my company staffs them, so I can find that out for you. There you go.

I like the one that had the regulation if it was on a state highway.

That was interesting. In home-based businesses or home businesses, however you want to term that, home enterprise, I like the tiered approach in general. Somebody that's just running an office out of their house, probably doesn't need a special permit, right? It's a pretty simple process for them. Maybe it's a zoning permit. But, you know, then you get these more intense uses, and that perhaps requires a special permit. So that's something to think about. And I think you've got to think about what types of things you want to allow and what the end goal is. And, you know, yeah, there are folks that are doing things out in the woods on their properties, and we may not even know what they are. You don't know what they are. We don't know what they are anymore. Maybe that's all right, but you've got these other operations going on, and you hear about it, or you see an ad on Facebook, or whatever the case may be, and if you want to enforce that, we can. It's really up to you. You brought up the cottage food. I think that's coming in. We're working on getting that one in, so we're going to get that under control. I think it's just a matter of... you all kind of taking a look at it.

And the other problem is the number of businesses that we allow in rural residential. And there's nothing that correlates them as far as I can see to the PLCD. One of the big ones is a quarry, gravel earth removal in a rural residential. You know, that's one of the big ones. You can't, if somebody wanted to come in and take out Landry's login and start digging in there, they could. Permit, special permit. That's, you know, that was a big one that's standing out. So I don't know how those, all these businesses got there, I don't know. So I think we should leave this on the, on the agenda under the business and we can talk about more as time goes on.

And I'll try to find some more examples for you to take a look at. Yeah. I think by having it in there, I don't see huge risk in a proliferation of rural residential business and people flocking here to start their business. But I am concerned with non-residents. I'm sure putting a business on vacant land It just doesn't seem there's a whole lot of accountability there, potentially. That's my concern. And then also having the regulations does provide structure for us to judge and also enforce, right? Versus digging up an old permit somewhere.

I mean, if he was doing this at his house, it probably wouldn't be as big a deal.

Right, because this property is going to be the primary use on this property versus being if there was a house there. It's a different story.

I think this is all things to try to create this thing. You've got wetlands close by, too. Yeah, you've got wetlands.

All right, so. That could be the end of it right there.

Let's see. All right, so number nine, approval of the minutes.

I have a few other discussion points, not to belabor the evening. Okay. So I toured the former Gilson facility last week with the current owners, and they've got their work cut out for them to get the ground floor ready for the futsal, that's how you say it, which is the condensed soccer and all that kind of thing. but they are looking to get a few things operational even in advance of that. So Jeremy and I have been talking and we're not quite sure if the whole shebang would fit under the indoor recreation private, or we should be looking for maybe separate standalone permits for the upper bar slash small theater area and the former Padres location down on the ground level, which is going to be like a coffee and crepe operation. If we looked at those separately, we're thinking probably just restaurant for each of the uses, and we just wanted to kind of gauge what you guys thought, if we should treat this as a two-step or fold it all into the...

Say again? They're looking to use the Padre space like for a restaurant.

Yeah, it's going to be a coffee and grapes spot.

So that's already a permitted use basically there. That is. And then upstairs, what's the plan on the upstairs?

So there's a bar up there. There's a small screen. you know, would be a bar slash restaurant. They do plan to serve food there as well. Possibly bring in small entertainment acts, a comedian, you know, a two-piece band.

So basically nothing different than what that use was. I mean, those two uses I don't see a problem with. It's not a change of use from previously.

Right. I don't think we had a permit on file for the Gilson anyway, so the whole thing is going to get cleaned up with the new permit. Okay, yeah. Um, but all right. So just to recap, then you're okay with, uh, standalone restaurant zoning permits for those two spaces.

They're going to be the same owner or same owner for everything going on.

Yeah. So it's like space expanding, right? The only change is that main area that they're bringing down.

So, okay. So. How do you handle, you know, restrooms in the Downs Padres area? Because they used to cut through the kitchen and go back through to the downstairs bathroom. Good question.

I don't know.

Yeah. That would have to be addressed. Right. And the one upstairs is okay because that's just outside the door. Left and right.

On the second floor, yeah. On the first floor they had to go, you know.

cut through the kitchen, up the little stairs and around.

Or come out.

Yeah. Yeah. That was how that happened.

So per the health department, they're going to have to have the work area sort of quarantined off from everything anyhow. So that's kind of part of that same discussion. They're going to need to be able to get to the facilities that they're going to need.

Well, let's look at it as a standalone permit for each one. That way they can get going on whatever they want to do there.

Yeah.

Okay. Uh, they want to bring that coffee shop pastry thing up. Fine. But that's the first one I seen they've been working in there.

Yeah.

So, and there's people that keep saying we need another coffee shop in Winston.

So maybe that'll help them out. Okay. So that's good. Uh, that takes care of that discussion. Uh, next we've been, uh, talking about accessory uses on, uh, standalone lots. So, you know, you guys have been talking about it from a business perspective here and that's one thing, but a good example is like folks at the lake who have their house on the non water side and then they own like a small lot on the water and they would like to have a shed there for their, you know, late toys. And right now we cannot permit a shed to be built there. It could be fully compliant location wise, everything else. But the way our regs are written, you need to have a primary use before you can have an accessory use. A different example is some folks up in rural residential might own a large lot, not necessarily looking for a farm operation, but they want to maintain the grass and the fields and they would like to have a barn there or a garage there. technically we can't allow that right now.

I'm sorry? Which they already have.

Some do, yes. But if we want to make things right. So we wanted to bring this discussion point to your attention and we don't need to solve it right now, but maybe we carry it onto the next agenda.

So your example was people that had a house on the lake and a lot across the street or something.

Yep.

Are they connected? See, that's interesting up there because a lot of those properties have a deed, one deed to cover both pieces of property. Right.

So not necessarily to answer your question.

So it's something they bought later in time.

Right. And it's not always necessarily directly across the street either. The house could be a quarter mile down the road, but their waterfront property is.

We're not talking picnic lots, are we?

No.

Okay.

But several people have access to that lot.

Not always.

Sometimes though. Sometimes.

Sure. It can be a shared. Yeah. Yeah. Because yeah, there are some where they, they bought the lot.

Because they had access to the lake.

Yeah. They did that on Wheelers Point. Yeah. Over by Forest Avenue used to be that way too. Um,

So I would never let them have a dock because they would all fight. We would let them moor the boats out there as long as they're, I think, around 50 feet.

And they couldn't put a shed there because it didn't work for everybody. Is there going to be excavation for the shed? Is it going to be above ground sitting on the ground? I can't answer all the eventualities right now.

You say shed, but... I'm just talking use. We would get into construction and review and everything else at the time. I think it's easier to say no.

You're riding around the lake and you're seeing nice houses and every other lot's got a shed. Nice house, shed.

They always want more once you start.

You do have quite a few properties that have a house on one side and then on the water side they do have their waterfront, cabana, dock. Yeah, a shed with the bar in it and water and sewer in it. But I think those are all one piece of property.

They could be, yeah. It's every which way up there. Sometimes it's one piece bisected by the road, sometimes it's not.

As far as big structures go, that's like a ZBA thing. Shed is different. I don't know how to handle that one. Say no.

Say no. Because as he says, they're all different. You may be okay with one. You may not be okay with the other. And it's just easier to say no.

Then they're going to go to ZPA.

To that end, so you could make it a special permit? I think I'd say no.

How many more nights are we going to be sitting here?

And how much are we talking? How many pieces are we talking about?

I have not done an analysis.

So you brought this up because you thought you had somebody talking.

We had one get built without permits, and now we're trying to get them compliant.

And that would only be part of the compliance picture, to be honest.

Is that the one that came before us? They were down the hill? No. Off the road? No, that's the other area.

So that can be solved by going through ZVA. Okay. I think if we just don't address it, let ZBA handle it, then we don't end up with them everywhere. Because ZBA ultimately is going to end up doing it.

What's the otherwise useful purpose of those properties?

Convenience.

Can it have a house? Convenience.

Because it's just easier to keep all the stuff there than before, you know, it's a refrigerator in there, so you don't have to go across the street.

The addition that goes up with the bedrooms on it. You've seen it before.

I feel like it's for a useful purpose. Yeah, exactly. I agree. No. All right. That's the answer.

ZVA. I don't know if you allow use... because CBA may not be the answer. I have to look. Most towns don't allow use variances. Well, it gets it off his desk. It does.

What do you mean don't allow use variances?

So what we're talking about here is an accessory use on a residential parcel. So you would be looking for a use variance, not a location variance.

With a residence on that property.

That's right. Not a piece of property with no...

So having a secondary structure without a primary is a use variance.

Right, it would be a use variance. It may also need setbacks and other things depending on the lot.

There is a history of that in this town.

Oh, I don't doubt that. But we're trying to clean up the process and make sure that... So before we suggest that, we'll make sure that you, like I said, some towns, most towns have something in their reg that says no use variances. Because, and that's there on purpose, right? Because you don't want somebody in a residential area coming into the ZBA and saying, well, I want to put a depot on my back lot. And that's a use variance. So you just nip that at the knee. So we'll check into that.

all right so anything else for us i think that's all i had all right so now we'll go on to number nine approval of minutes august 24th 2026 regular meeting minutes i make a motion to approve them second all in favor Oh, number 10, communications. Any communications, or have we pretty much done that? I think so. No. Okay, good. Number 11, do you want to do it? I'll make a motion to adjourn. Second. All in favor? Aye. So we've got these nice fancy little things here that we never opened up tonight. Can we still do it?