Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

I'd like to call the August 4th uh planning and zoning commission meeting to order, please. Tonight on the agenda, we have one public hearing, one letter of recommendation, one information report, one new correspondence item, two site development plan recommendations, and two other items. Can I get a roll call of committee members, please? Commissioner Hoffrey here. Commissioner Cohen here. Commissioner Clayton here. Commissioner Deppler. Commissioner Jackson. Commissioner Grievous here. Commissioner Borne here. Um, Chair Batty here. Council member Marshall. Mayor Gano

here.

Thank you. Um, let's see. Can I get an approval of the minutes from July 7th, please? Uh motion by Commissioner Hry, second by Commissioner Clayton. Any discussion, Mr. Chairs, just a quick um requested change to the the minutes before they are approved. Uh the motion for the adjournment was incorrect. It had Mr. Rubis, who wasn't absent, um making the motion to adjurnn. Um it was actually Mr. Jackson. So those changes have been made for your Miss Hry's signature, but if we could include that in the motion, the department would appreciate it and apologies for the error.

All those in favor of approving the change say I. Any opposed? And all those u in favor of approving the minutes as amended say I. I. I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? one. I'm two, I guess. All right. Um, minutes are approved. Thank you. All right. Uh, does the Department of Planning have any opening comments? No, sir. But thank you.

All right. Thank you. Um, so at this time, we'll go into our public hearing. Um, in the city of Wildwood, public hearings are truly intended to accept comments, questions, I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. Yeah. All right. Public comment session. My bad. No problem. Uh first uh speaker card is from Miss Lum.

I'm sorry. Good evening. Uh just wanted to let you know that our client and I are here if you have any additional questions for us about the project or uh if you'd like to speak with us about our attempts to reach the trustees of Highland Summit. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. The next speaker card uh is from Mr. Summerhoff.

Hello, I'm Greg Summerhoff. I'm the home builder and the future residents the future resident of the lot. Um I wanted to share um so I've been trying to reach the seems like there's a little confusion on the uh HOA but I have been trying. So uh I did talk to Mr. Massman. Um uh he was at our our first meeting. Uh he said um he felt like we addressed all of his concerns. Uh he said um um he felt he kind of concurred what some of you have said that it's a um it's a public road, it's private property, and he felt like the HOA really wasn't an issue for the HOA. Um he said he wanted to be um um yeah so he so uh wasn't an HOA approval. He said if I wanted to be in the HOA he would love to discuss that after this was approved. So that was his approach. Uh he asked um u we talked about parking and stuff like that. I feel like I got him very comfortable. uh reached out to Dwayne Best and I' I haven't heard back. Uh Amy thes uh she was she spoke at the last meeting. I had a nice conversation with her in the lobby. I re and then I told her I'd love to meet all three trustees. I um uh I I've called her two or three times and I haven't heard back. Okay.

So I should let you know I'm trying. Appreciate the effort. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Chair, the department hasn't received any speaker cards here in the room, but we do have a few on Zoom if they want to speak. Um, they would use the raise hand feature. We'll just give them give them a few moments. Okay.

Not not seeing any raised hands. Thank you. All right. Um Okay. All right. So, with that, we'll go ahead and end the public comment. And now, let me start over on the public hearing. Sure.

All right. In the city of Wildwood, public hearings are truly intended to set to accept comments and questions concerning this posted item. Since this request is being presented at a public hearing, no action is planned on this item tonight. in consideration of it is to be taken no earlier than the September 2025 planning and zoning commission meeting. This approach ensures the members of the commission will hear all opinions before taking any action. The city's department of planning will address the comments, questions, and concerns that are raised tonight and include them as part of its formal recommendation to the planning and zoning commission. Anyone in attendance at city hall tonight wanting to speak should fill out a speaker card and leave it with Mr. Newberry. Those in attendance via the Zoom webinar platform should use the raise hand feature to indicate you wish to speak at this hearing. A team member will add you to the list of speakers which will then be communicated to me as chair and I will invite you to speak when it is your turn. The public hearing process is outlined in the public hearing guidelines pamphlet which can be found on the table at the entry area to the council chambers. The commission will allow all parties adequate time to present their position as outlined in the public hearing guidelines pamphlet. Those individuals representing themselves will be allocated three minutes to speak. Speakers who are designated as a group speaker representing a group of more than five individuals will be allocated five minutes to speak. In addition, information on this item can be found on the city's website at www.c cityof wildwood.com. The commission would like to thank you for your cooperation and participation at tonight's hearing. Uh, let's see here. Mr. Newberry, PZ8-25.

PZ8-25, City of Wildwood Planning and Zoning Commission, care of Department of Planning, 1 16860 Main Street, Wildwood, Missouri. a request to review and consider potential allowances for drive-through facilities within the workplace district designation of the regulating plan of the city's town center plan. Currently, this land use designation does not allow restaurant or other comparable uses with drive-through facilities. This review may include but is not necessarily limited to deter determination of the impact of drive-through facilities upon the design, function, and character of development sites along with mitigating factors associated with them to address the same. Additionally, with certain with certain considerations regarding architectural elements associated with these types of facilities will also be reviewed. Wards 1, four, five, and 8.

Thank you, Mr. Newberry, Mr. Vinich.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission, the department has prepared for your consideration tonight an item relating to drive-through facilities in the workplace district. Specifically, the department has identified a series of properties that are located on the east and west side of Route 109 between Manchester Road on the south and Route 100 on the north. As many of the commission members may be aware, at the July meeting of this body, a request was made by the Department of Planning to post this matter for public hearing. This particular matter had been discussed by the economic development committee of city council earlier this summer and it was their intent and request of the commission to do the same. So tonight we are fulfilling that direction from the city council committee that oversees economic development activities for Wildwood as well as the request from the department of planning at the July meeting. As you know from the item that was provided for the purposes of tonight's public hearing that when the town center was adopted in 1996 under the philosophy of new urbanism, it was emphasized that this should be a walkable community and that in many regards vehicles should be deemphasized whenever possible. Some of those techniques were to limit parking. So as there was a park once philosophy and walk to different uses whether it be stores, shops, restaurants, etc. to provide on street parking, thereby again negating off- streetet parking as much

as possible and when possible have parking structures such as the garage that's across the street here from city hall that offers 300 spaces in a single structure. Along with that, our consultant Andre Dwani and his team made a point to emphasize that drive-through facilities, although essential for certain uses like financial institutions and in some cases now drugstores, Walgreens, CVS, others should be discouraged and not allowed. Certainly with an expert such as Andre Dwani and his team, those that formed the first town center plan in subsequent updates felt that yes, we should stay with the true philosophy of walkability and deemphasize those things that might change that. And so there are drive-through facilities in Town Center. The department identifies them, I believe, on page two or three of the report, but most of those are in the downtown district and they're somewhat connected to a larger development such as Deerberg's Town Center, Wildwood Shnooks Crossing, and then Cohen Properties, Wildwood Town Center, which includes the Walgreens, the Starbucks, the PNC, and former PNC Bank site, etc. The workplace district does allow drive-through facilities, but only in conjunction with financial institutions. And as we know, financial institutions have changed very much over the last 30 years, almost going to an internet model versus having brick andmortar facilities with large staffing in them. So all it means is we have a limited number of drive-through facilities. Most of them in conjunction with financial

institutions, the Walgreens, Starbucks, and a few others. However, as we found during the pandemic and the subsequent years that followed, times have changed. People's lifestyles have changed, and for the most part, not having drive-through facilities in conjunction with other uses has caused some issues for people. whose issues relate to having children in the car or an elderly parent that doesn't have mobility, things along those lines, and just the lifestyle most people live that have children or others. And so tonight, the department is proposing that the planning and zoning commission consider amending the workplace district to allow a limited number of drive-through facilities in conjunction with other uses along the corridor of State Route 109 and potentially State Route 100. I say potentially State Route 100 because there are a limited number of properties, if any, that might lend themselves to such a use. and those properties that might lend themselves to that use AV redevelopment opportunities. But as you can see on the screen, the properties that have been identified are on both sides of Route 109 between the two major Manchester roads, Route 100 and Old Manchester Road. They are frontage properties only, meaning that second tier properties would not be considered. These have direct frontage on Route 109 and for the most part have had interest in them for drive-through facilities, but that interest has evaporated once the department whether it be administration, the economic development manager, public works or planning have

told them they are prohibited. The department is not trying to be assuming, but it believes that drive-through facilities can be integrated into a large enough site to offset any potential concerns about noise activity at unusual hours and the architecture associated with them. I think we've proven that with many of the ones that are part of the city of Wildwood at this time. So as part of the information provided to you tonight, the department is advocating a serious consideration of this particular item. This particular item has been seriously considered in 2007 and in 2018 and in both instances was not supported by the commission. I would urge the commission to take into account its experiences during the pandemic and the associated years and the fact that these properties where volume traffic volumes are high and the kind of design is favorable or drive-through facilities remain unused, vacant and for all intents and purposes in the department's opinion may stay that way for many many years given that brick brick andmortar retail service and other types of activities just are very few and far between. And so tonight we are presenting you with the option. Mr. Newberry, Mr. Young, and I are available to discuss any of the questions you might have at tonight at public hearing. If you have reservations, we'd like to know those. If you have ideas of support, we'd like to know those. And then certainly from the public as well. So, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Vinnich. Um, I will say off the

bat, I mean, I think that the drive-thru and walkability can coex totally coexist. And if I have to drive to another city to use a service that is not in Wildwood because we don't have a drive-thru, that defeats the whole purpose of living somewhere that was supposed to be walkable. Um, any other comments? Yeah. Uh, Commissioner Con,

I just want to uh express my support of adding the use of drive-thrus at that location. I mean, there's many types of businesses that would benefit from that. And of course, you don't have to get dressed to go through a drive-thru. But anyway, so right now we're going through a master plan update review. Is there any possibility that the workplace designation could be expanded? Uh particular I'm talking about road um thinking about the Watllo uh property a couple hundred acres there. Could that possibly be changed to workplace? And if so, would any decision we make here be it any workplace designation or are we strictly looking at the locations highlighted on our screen? Well, again, the advertisement identified Route 109 specifically between two streets, Route 100 Manchester Road, and then we also identified Route 100 again more so I think for redevelopment potential because if you look at Route 100, a lot of the properties have development history already associated with them. key one would probably be the wedge property that the tip of the wedge points toward Mercy Medical Center and Mobile on the run. But again, as I have identified, um we're here to take input. So your input relative to potential for Heatherton Road is an option. We can certainly explore it. come back in our information report with the results of our research and then let the commission make the determination.

All right. Before I go to Commissioner Hellfrey, can you enlighten me to the Watlo property?

Oh, okay. Up in Chesterfield Valley or Okay.

City. Mhm. I'm pretty sure it's over 200 acres of land.

232 acres plus a few tents. And just to kind of let you know, that particular property is owned by the Do Lo family and as Mr. Con mentioned, it's been formed for decades and decades and generations. Um, the trust now wishes to sell it. North Point Development proposed a project there. North Point Development does a lot of office warehouse uh projects, large ones, those that you see in industrial parks, etc. Um that project never moved forward or a number of hurdles necessarily established by the city, but certainly on North Etherton Road, which is a county arterial, there were concerns about the improvement levels, storm water management, etc. However, the the broker that represents the Do Lo family has submitted a letter to the citizen oversight group which is updating the master plan as we speak and they would like to retain the industrial designation of the property under the master plan but allow for potential mixeduse project to occur there. Not only just potentially commercial and industrial but residential. And it's kind of an intriguing idea because it's isolated from the rest of Wildwood and any project that's solely commercial or industrial there, we receive no true benefit other than the utility tax and some business licensing. But if there is a grouping of homes, that's where we get sales tax and utilities. So the mass the citizen oversight group will tackle it first and then bring it their recommendation to the planning and zoning commission but there's a lot of

wheels kind of turning on that one and we'll see where it goes. given I know it's protected by the levy but given that it's flood plane that residential there seems sketchy to me but I think though let's I think let's stay on topic though because that's not really part of the hearing. No certainly. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, I would say yeah, I mean that's obviously a discussion now. Eventually will come up before the master plan committee as we just heard tonight. So I think right now we just got to focus on the um the question in hand. So sir and commissioner apologies.

Okay. So I was one of the people who was for the drive-throughs the last couple times and I got beat down. So I have a couple comments shockingly enough. Um, first of all, I am pro drive-thrus. And I think that part of the problem is when we say drive-thru, people assume that they're going to be these neon lit double drive-thru bright yellow like McDonald's. And and they they should not be that obviously. Um, I am of the mindset that anything along 109 and 100 should have the potential to have a drive-thru in it. And I think that we should do them as cups because then that allows us to say, "Here's how it's got to be because I think that any one of those businesses, if they wanted to have the drive-thru, if they had the uh the amount of space to drive a car behind their building, why couldn't they have a drive-thru at the rear of the property that's not seen by the street?" Um, one of the things you said about the walkable communities was, uh, you said Mr. Dwani said that there should be, you know, limited parking, but we should offer parking garages and it's a walkable community. Well, we have, I think, a walkable pocket community. We have this pocket over here, which is real walkable, but then you got to get in a car to drive over to the next walkable part in my opinion. I mean, that's just the way I look at it, you know. Um, so I and so where's the parking over here? But when we had COVID, everything changed. Everybody in the whole world needed drive-through except for Bank of America. So, they're ridiculous. Um, they actually closed their drive-throughs, but everybody else needed drive-throughs. Um, and today when you go to Walmart or Target or Deerbergs or there's parking spaces for you to pull up because people don't want to go in and they bring their stuff out to them. So, I think that quite honestly

an argument could be made that almost any business could could have a drive-through service. So, what I would offer is that every property along 100 that's a commercial type retail business work district as long as it's not a home that that lot should be allowed to have a cup uh for a drive-thru. And the same thing for 109. And that way if uh let's say I'm just going to use um Lucky Dog Central as a as an example only because that name's in my head right now. It has nothing to do with them. But if they had wanted to put a drive-thru, we could have said to them, "Yeah, it's got to be at the back of your building and it has to" and that would have been an option for them. Or maybe they wanted to knock down that building and build something, you know, totally different. They could do that and we want to drive through and we could tell them it has to be in the back and the lights have to be off by 10 o'clock and your microphone can't be so loud. And that gives us the opportunity to do that with the cup instead of saying these 12 properties only can have drive-thru. That's okay. That's my That's my idea.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Rich. Um, Commissioner Rubis like would be uh like Bank of America, PNC Bank. If somebody wanted to come in there, say a restaurant would want to come in there and use that space, would they be allowed to use those drive-thru facilities? Yes, sir. Because they're downtown district versus workplaces district. Okay. So, they go with the building. They go with the building. And same way with the uh Jack in a Box, Jack in a Box, etc. No, I support I support controlled drive-thru facilities. Um, question

a question about that. So, if if it's a cup though, it doesn't transfer necessarily. They somebody would have to reapply. Is that correct?

Well, the current drive-through facilities generally are all governed by the C8 plan commercial district. So again, a CUP is a permit that's written to a specific property based upon a plan that's been submitted for that use. The same holds true for the CA plan commercial district. The difference being is the conditional use permit is an administrative act done by the commission and reviewed by council. The C8 is a recommendation from the commission that's acted upon by the legislative body, city council. The C8 district gives more flexibility. And from the perspective of the department, it's key to remember the conditional use permit can only be more restrictive than the underlying requirements. It can't be less restrictive. So, in some instances, I could see the conditional use permit being an impediment to actually getting the design that commission might want relative to setbacks, um, escape lanes, double drive-thrus, etc., etc. So, I think as we go through this process, we'll explain that a little bit better. Then we'll give you the pluses and minuses of both approaches. We have in certain instances for cell towers in commercial districts required a conditional use permit

and that's intentional because we don't want cell towers to have much flexibility quite frankly because they are they are what they are and they create a major impact wherever they may be located. Well, so if we did if we did it with the workplace district, then that would have to allow any place that there's a work district, right? Well, it certainly could be argued, but the proposal that's in the context of the the the report that was provided, we termed it to be a a new workplace, a workplace um I think drive-thru or 109, I can't remember the 109 100. Yes, workplace state route 100 109 district. And so we would create a subcategory much like the Hound Center team back in 2018 created the neighborhood edge transition and that to kind of address those periphery properties that

right just didn't quite fit into non-urban because they bordered town center but they that no one wanted them to be overdeveloped. And so we're proposing something a little different here.

I just wouldn't want to limit any any business on 100 right now that's there. And that's just kind of my focus is because there's so many of those almost that whole street that one area is is businesses. And so what I would hope that if we if we do this, which I hope that we do, that we don't exclude any of those from being in it. I mean, I don't want to limit. Am I making sense? I understand what you're saying, but I also understand that there's a there's a push in the other direction that if you go to Route 66, Manchester Road, there is more residential um residential uses in close proximity to the commercial and the lots that I've identified on the aerial photography, those were kind of taken into account when they were set aside. side that they potentially might be drive-thru lots at some point in the future. So, we gave them a little bit more area, size, as well as depth and width. So, we had more flexibility. Retrofitting some of the lots on Old Manchester Road that are workplace district designated may be a bit of more challenge. So, we'll look at all of it. We're not going to negate it. Again, this is the public hearing. We want to hear your thoughts. We'll test them and then you can make decision.

All right. Um let me commissioner count and then mayor and you mentioned earlier uh the question was put to you about the PNC Bank and Bank of America that they're already approved. However, we need to take into consideration I assume this will be the case. The use for instance a financial institution doesn't require the stacking or queue that a Starbucks would. So, am I correct that whatever might want to go in there and utilize that existing drive-thru or for that matter a new one, there'll be a traffic study and the full process will be observed. Correct.

Certainly. I'll give you a great example. Starbucks. It seems on certain mornings when it's raining, we gave them a a stacking distance that was pretty substantial from the drive-through window around the curb by the menu board, even back out and then down um along the access drive that serves the farmer city hall site and Starbucks and it fills and it spills out into plaza. But there's a number of cars. I believe the stacking is somewhere in the range of about 12 to 15 cars, which is substantial. Um, so yes, we'll take into account the best way to do that is to work with our director of public works, Rick Brown, who's a PTOE, as well as have the developer provide a traffic study from a firm we trust in terms of their findings.

Mayor Gardano. Yeah, I uh I think my comments around this uh how supportive in general about the idea uh with specific lots u you know what we hear from residents over and over again through feedback surveys, conversations, but especially the surveys, the comment areas is how our residents are always looking for amenities and more convenience. And I think one message that I've heard over and over is that they want to stay in Wildwood. They want to spend their money in Wildwood. They don't want to have be able to have to get in the car, drive down 100, and drive a bit of a distance, leave our city to spend their money. So, I I do get that message clearly that people want amenities, especially when you think of some of our seniors, you know, those that want to be closer to home, you know, they don't want to go far for, you know, things such as picking up a prescription um or, you know, picking up food in a drive-thru. And I do, while I do appreciate what uh Commissioner Hfrey said about trying to be open with just all the lots, I do think, you know, we're taking a big step just with the specific lots here that I'm almost tempted not to push it. Uh because uh you know, we also want to make sure that we're doing this in a very controlled way uh with very specific lots that you're showing here. Joe, is that five lots that you have highlighted here?

Well, five parcels or again the I will note that the large lot there is an outlot that was created as part of the reserve that's about an acre in size, but it's not yet been shown on the county's um mapping system. So, yeah, there's one there. The one below is one lot and then the other. So, that's three, four, five, about six lots in total. that lot on the east side of Route 109 south of the Main Street roundabout. That's actually two lots. It's under the same ownership. So that's why the county kind of shows them as a single lot for us for taxing purposes.

Sure. So, I do think that uh in my opinion, keeping it specific to the lots because I think if we kind of say open along 100, it could be misinterpreted as anywhere along 100. And actually, I'm I'm trying to think of what commercial lots we have on 100 because I can't think of any um you know, other than the town center itself, which is contained. I are there any commercial lots along 100? Um on Old Manchester Road by Route 100, there's the Gleno Post Office and that's zone C1 neighborhood shopping mall. Okay, so just one just one.

Well, so there you go. That that already, you know, but that could be misinterpreted by thinking, oh, drive-throughs all on 100 to Franklin County. That's not happening. Um so we want to make sure Oh, man. Ah, I see. Okay. That's what I meant. I meant the old Manchester.

Yeah. Well, I think clarity Yeah. is good. But I would I would at least in my opinion I'd feel a lot better saying these are specific lots where there actually is a history like we know there have been serious inquiries of at least in two instances of uh I'm aware of a business that wanted to go there and they couldn't get a drive-thru. And guess what? In both instances, they both opened up just down the road. Um, and I believe at one time there was even talk of a pharmacy going on the what is it? Southwest corner.

Yeah, I was going to 100. But they need a drive-thru because that's a big thing. And and and you know, we learned that when the bread company was at their prior location, you know, where Shnooks is, that they said they needed to move, but they needed a drive-thru because it accounted for such a significant portion of their business that if they couldn't get it, just was not going to work. And I think we know that with Starbucks and others that they rely on the drive-thru model, but our residents like it, too. because the drive-throughs that we have today do see quite a bit of use. So, uh I I feel like if we keep it specific, then our residents know we're doing this in a very controlled manner. And again, doesn't mean that, you know, we're already approving something. It just opens the discussion to say that a drive-thru can be considered in these five lots or, you know, correct me uh cuz director vage some of them are more than one, but anyway. Yeah, that's my thoughts on that. Yeah, because yeah, it felt like I was saying I remember um for former Councilman Goodson telling me one time that there was talk of a pharmacy at that corner you mentioned and he never said why it fell apart, but that makes total sense if we wouldn't let them have their pickup window.

It was a CVS and the drive-thru was critical for the pharmacy and we just couldn't make it work. Uh, Councilman Marshall.

Yeah. Uh, Mr. Voonage, this is great. I think this is the right way to go. But aren't some of these big lots that we have already set up that they could have drive-throughs? I mean, I thought at one point Deerbergs could have had four or five drive-throughs on that without us expanding the parking lot all the way down to Old Manchester. do any of like that and Shnooks and these other places. Are they permissible that they could go in if they had somebody that uh wanted to build a drive-thru that it would fall within the provisions of the original uh approvals?

Well, you're you're correct. For example, Wildwood Shnook's Crossing, the county ordinance, as I recall, limits the number of drive-throughs to the bank building and the Jack in a Box. So, just two. Um, that's why, as the mayor mentioned, when St. Louis Break Company identified that they were thinking of moving because of the lack of a drive-thru, they were actually on an end unit. They could have I mean, if it would have beened, yeah, prohibited

the Deerberg's Town Center, that ordinance, I believe, limits them to two minus the drive-thru facility with the bank. And so they could have another drive-through facility that was offered to them on that frontage of Taylor Road. And then then obviously in Kman properties, Wildwood Town Center where we have three existing, the bank, Starbucks, and Walgreens that was the dividing line there was for the most part that internal drive that when if you went west you went to the old city hall site, PNC Bank. If you went east, you went to Starbucks, um the other businesses, that was the dividing line of the between downtown and workplace. And the reason PNC got the drive-through facility is in workplace, we allowed it. So,

yeah, there's restrictions associated with the individual ordinances that governs the site. Those can be changed by recommendation from commission or action. I I just I know that during this process, I mean, Culver's were here. they couldn't stay because we wouldn't let them uh on the property. They went down the road just as so many others had. I guess the question would be is once we hopefully can move this forward, then I think there'd be a real opportunity from economic development to go back to these people that we've told no and identify some of the landlords who have the parking lots. What about the one over where Culver's didn't go in, but that's a big parking lot there. Is there any We got the bank drive-thru. Is that it?

That's for the most part. That's it. Because again, actually, you could argue that village plaza, the center, does have somewhat frontage on Route 100. So, that might be an opportunity there and certainly could be incorporated into that gigantic parking lot that's never fully used. Um,

just cur I mean, those are all coming. I think, you know, we got a long way to go to get there, but I think there's some opportunities where people's mindset have changed and and I think the the landlords of these businesses if they have an opportunity and one last question and I'll be finished is the pharmaceutical um so-called drive-throughs that Shnooks has and with Mercy I I guess and I'm not sure I'm sorry that's Deerbergs I believe have that. Yeah. Do they count as a drive-thru capability or not?

No. when um when Deerbergs was developing their site, they made clear that they wanted the these kiosk for I believe First Bank and then the pharmacy. And so we actually created a provision in our ordinance for those types of kiosk that are kind of a hybrid of a drive-through facility but not attached to the primary building. Great. Thank you. Do we have any public comment on this? We will find out. Sir,

Mr. Chair, the department has not received any speaker cards in the room. We do have a few online. Um, again, just give them a few moments if they'd like to comment to use the raise hand feature via Zoom. Not seeing any raised hands, Mr. Chair. Yeah. Along with going back to the people who the businesses that have inquired before, I'll reiterate my comment. Bring back Lion's Choice.

Actually, that has been consistently one of the businesses that continues to contact the city about the future use of property along Route 109. So, if you're kind of looking for a poster child for this particular um proposal, I would use them. If there are no public comment, no further comments from the commission members, the department would respectfully request that the public hearing be closed. Uh, Commissioner Hry, I'll make a motion to close the public hearing and second by Commissioner Clayton. All right. All those in favor of closing the public hearing say I.

I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? All right. Public hearing is closed. Thank you. All right. Um, next on the agenda, PZ6-25, Mr. Newberry. PZ6-25 Lee Letternew 815 Streker Road, Wildwood, Missouri 630005, Care of Gabe Dwis, THD Design 148, Chesterfield Industrial Boulevard, Chesterfield, Missouri 630005. A request for a change in zoning for attractive land that is 6 acres in size being located on the west side of Stucker Road, north of its intersection with Highland Summit Drive, Street address 815 Streker Road, St. Louis County, locator number 21 U430031, which is currently zoned in non-urban residence district. Master plan conceptual land use category of suburban residential district to the R1 1 acre residence district. proposed use a total of two single family detach dwellings including required rightaway dedication along Streker Road. One of these dwellings is already constructed ward three.

All right. Thank you, Mr. Newberry, Mr. Vinnich.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission, the Department of Planning has provided for your consideration tonight the draft letter of recommendation that now reflects the commission members action from the July 7th meeting on this matter. As you'll recall, for the July 7th U meeting of the planning and zoning commission, the department presented a favorable recommendation regarding the reszoning of this property from the NU non-urban resident district through the R11 acre resident district to allow it to be subdivided into two properties, one 3 acres in size, the other being 2.86 acres in size. The smaller of the two lots already has an existing single family detached dwelling on it and it is occupied. The reason for the resoning is unusual and it's referenced in the draft letter of recommendation. The Department of Planning and the Department of Public Works respectfully requested a dedication of land area as part of the lots split plat accommodate um Strucker Road and taking the notch out of it, so to speak. Uh the land dedication, the 6 acre property went to 5.86 acres in size. From the department's perspective, the dedication rendered property to just one lot at five plus acres and certainly I mean two lots almost three acres in size seem reasonable. So tonight that reasonleness is in the form of this letter of recommendation and is ready for final action. Thank you Mr. Vich. Uh Commissioner Clayton

I make a motion we approve the letter as drafted. Right. Seconded by Commissioner Con. Any discussion? Commissioner Rubis, the the the northern lot lot. Um I guess it would be the northern lot. That would be the the one that we're trying to change the zoning of. Correct. Is that the smaller lot?

Actually, the current lot, not subdivided, is NU non-urban resident district. So both properties would change their zoning. The uh unique feature here as you know commissioner Rubis is is that to avoid just um devastating the site with access from the new lot the 3acre property to Striker Road. There is a private easement that's being proposed to Highland Summit Drive which is a public street. So the larger lot is the new lot and will and will have the same 1 acre zoning as the existing.

Okay. Both of them will be one. Okay. And that's um any other discussion? Thank you. Seeing none, roll call vote. Commissioner Hry. Yes. Commissioner Con? Yes. Commissioner Clayton, yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Commissioner Bourne, yes. Mr. Bourne, could you uh state again? Yes. Quite come through. I'm a yes.

One one second. Mr. Bourne, apologies. Uh, please cast your vote. Yes, I'm a yes. Thank you very much. Uh, Chair Batty, yes. Council member Marshall, yes. And Mayor Garitano. Motion carries. Thank you. All right. PZ3-25, Mr. Newberry.

PZ3-25, City of Wildwood Planning and Zoning Commission, Care of Department of Planning, 1 16860 Main Street, Wildwood, Missouri 63040. and authorized review by the planning and zoning commission of certain components of the city sign regulations specifically within chapter 415.030 definitions, chapter 415.400 sign regulations general, chapter 415410 sign regulations for FP and UPS and all R districts and chapter 415.420 420 sign regulations for all C and M districts which we will consider possible modifications relating to electronic message boards sign escro deposits calculations of sign sizes lighting characteristics installation components and the related definitions for the same all

thank you Mr. Newberry Mr. Vich

thank you again Mr. Chair Mr. Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission, the department has prepared for your consideration tonight its information report which includes its recommendation regarding matters relating to the city sign regulations. I think the elephant in the room relates to the electronic message centers and the department does want to provide some background relative to that particular matter. As you know, the hearing was held back in March of this year where the electronic message center centers and their potential use in the city of Wildwood was first identified. I say first identified from the perspective of this particular petition, but obviously there has been ongoing discussion over the years regarding message boards and their application in Wildwood. Over those years, different entities have approached the city and asked for the right to install such on their properties. Principally, schools, institutional uses, and some businesses have been those um particular entities seeking them. Over time though despite having multiple hearings relative to them sign regulations were not again were not altered to accommodate them. In this particular instance there was additional interest from our economic development committee of city council. They had it on their agenda at certain times over the past year and ultimately provided a recommendation in support of such that being electronic message centers.

The recommendation would limited to taxing districts, public taxing districts, and the use of electronic message centers. In the information report, the department has identified potentially 22 taxing districts in the city of Wildwood minus the city itself, which again could use them on park properties and here at city hall. The likelihood of that is a decision made by the mayor and city council itself. The department is not supporting electronic message centers despite the efforts of Randy Burrat to provide a level of assurance that they can be managed and they can be managed well in a dark sky environment and the department believes that is the case. However, past experience has indicated compliance is often in place relative to many things whether it be building structure permits, sign permits, anything from A to Z that is permitted by the city of Wildwood and its partner St. Louis County on day one and shortly thereafter once a maintenance person or once there is a change in leadership that compliance can be altered and altered very quickly. Then it becomes an enforcement issue. An enforcement issue begins with a warning notice and x amount of days to basically obtain compliance. Ultimately, there is discussions that follow after a warning notice is delivered to an entity and often times there's extensions to try to ensure that all options are considered and everyone is treated fairly. If there is not compliance, then a summon is issued and it goes to court and the court process can take months if

not longer. All the time the sign or whatever the entity whatever the item might be is there in non-compliance. The department in this particular instance truly believes that it's the benefit of the dark sky, the benefit of equality relative to the entities that seek these signs, meaning not just taxing districts, but institutional uses like places of worship and businesses needs to be considered. Selecting a group, specific group and not all groups that could benefit from them does not to the in the department's opinion reach the level of appropriateness it should. I mentioned the dark sky as I identified. I believe 17 or 18 of the locations that potentially could have electronic message centers are located in wards one and six. rule wards, the areas that dark sky actually does exist still today. And from the perspective of the department, we could certainly establish time off cut offs, but I still get calls about Pond Athletics Association and their 10:30 p.m. cut off for their athletic field lighting, and it's been in place for decades. So again, the department does not believe that electronic message boards in 2025, electronic message centers in 2025 are as essential as they might have been 10, 15, or 20 years ago. If there's a weather emergency, where do you go

first? Television and radio. If there's an Amber Alert, where do you go? It's on your smartphone. And then on television and radio, if you need to know to basically change your batteries at the time change in spring and fall, you basically get that in the newspaper or on your smartphone. The 2025 availability of smartphones which everybody carries and in the school settings where there's email blast, text blast, and every other kind of information tool available to the young who are the ones that benefit from it. and carry home the message to parents hopefully basically negates in the opinion of the department the essentiality of electronic message center. So tonight the department is recommending no chain. Conversely there is a benefit I believe to changing some of our commercial sign regulations for wall types and those are identified in the department's report. The department believes that in this particular instance, false shine should become more proportionately considered relative to the facade where they are to be placed, meaning a percentage versus just a single measurement of tenant length of the space. Also, the height of lettering should be changed from 24 in to 30 in to accommodate the proportionality and the ratio associated with such. Additionally, the department is recommending certain changes to temporary banners to make it easier for everybody because it's confusing to the department of planning, to the code enforcement team, and more importantly to the businesses. So, tonight there are some recommended changes to our sign regulations, and those are identified in the blue bolded text.

Also, there is a removal of the sign escrow that the city's collected for many years, which is $500. And there is a new prohibition rather relative to feather and flutter flags. They would be prohibited. They are probably the worst offender in terms of maintainability and they are the first to fall apart and they are the first to tilt and block sidewalks and etc. So from the department's perspective, we're certainly giving a lot and getting a little back. So tonight report has been prepared for your consideration. Certainly the electronic message centers is a major issue for this instance Monarch Fire Protection District, Lafayette High School, and other schools in the Rockwood School District. But I don't see an individual need outweighing the benefit of retaining our dark sky. And if we are to move toward electronic message centers, I think we should do it for all potential users, not just a certain group. With that, the department will conclude and with a motion and section sec second, we can take up discussion. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Vinich. Um, I'll just ask real quick. I cuz if I feel like Lafayette and Babler Elementary have replaced their signs recently. Do they still want message boards despite having done that? Lafayette High School, their principal discussed this with Colonel Jaxi, who is in charge of their ROC program there. Colonel Jaxi was also on city council and brought this matter directly to the department not inappropriately but just said is there an opportunity to consider this again and I said certainly with the support of the commission we can take it to public hearing and that's exactly what we did and from that point forward Colonel Jackson had no other role.

Thank you discussion. Uh Commissioner um Clayton. Oh. Oh. All right. I make a motion that we approve the sign regulations as amended. Second. [Music] I'll make a second just so we can talk about it. All right. Uh, Councilman Marshall.

So, some some questions. Um, I know that um Mr. Burrat did a great presentation. There's been all kind of improvements in the signs. Does he have any examples of how to improve the enforcement when they don't do it? My biggest issue here is these things will sit there for months on months and people keep complaining that are complaining and I don't know that we have a way as a city to do any more enforcement. I mean, you're right. You get 30 days, you get a hearing and they don't like it here, they'll take it to the county and we sat there with signs. Right now we have old signs that need to be taken out or changed, but from an enforcement standpoint, we're just kind of helpless at it. So,

well, I wouldn't necessarily say helpless, but when Mr. Burquette was here for the second work session, half of his slide deck was the process of determining lighting compliance from message centers. You had to get a piece of equipment. You had to set it up here. You had it at this height. You had to have the cooperation of the owner of this sign and there are time of day time of night

multiple steps in the process and certainly I'm confident our code enforcement team can do it. I'm completely confident, but at the end of day, is it really necessary in today's world? And again, I'm looking at it from someone that's very old and that's come to appreciate smartphones, but our residents, younger residents and kids today, do they depend on signs or their smartphone to get their information? I think it's smart folks. And I don't I don't think the benefit outweighs the risk. Commissioner Hellfrey.

Well, I I have to say first of all, I don't know if I if I told you, but I thank the city for having that gentleman come in and give us those presentations because I learned I mean, I really learned quite a bit about it and um I I was fascinated by it. And one of the things that struck me the most was the amount of light that it took for you to see the sign and then to look back to the road and the amount of seconds it took for your eyes to actually catch up. And the fact that we live in Wildwood where we have eight bazillion deer at any given time waiting to run out in front of your car should uh that was a that was a huge factor in everything he said. I mean I was I was fascinated by that. So I do have a question about the signs because I don't disagree with you Mr. Bunich on the that's your

but I don't okay I don't but I also am looking at some of the signs that um like for example at St. Alvin Row we have the kind of sign where you have to lock the case and open the glass thing and take the letters and slide them out and then slide all the letters in and hope you have enough of the vowel that you need or whatever. And so I'm wondering are there other kinds of maybe not message boards but maybe a computer sign but it's not something that rotates that that could be used. I don't know what Babler has but

Babblers is a Babler elementary school is a static sign. I think the closest example would be Monarch Fire Protection District. They've installed electronic message board. um they were not operating it at the request of the city until we work through this particular matter. Uh the deputy chief, Mr. Cru, Chief Cruz is here tonight. Um so they are willing based upon their architect and the response I received from him relative to the review of the sign to manage it in a very I think sight friendly way. Um but then again it's on Wild Horse Creek Road. It's on the western end of Wild Horse Creek Road just east of Route 109. And the description the architect provided was they would provide time, temperature, amber alerts, traffic concerns, things along those lines. Um all those things again I feel can be provided in a more efficient way in the in your home in your office in your school in your car and you don't have to be in front of the property where the sign is located. Well, well, I don't disagree with you, but I guess my question is when we have these signs, is there a type of sign that um could be static but is still electronic that people don't have to go out and open a cage and hold the thing up and slide letters? I mean, are do we have those kinds of signs available that we could allow people to do? We could accommodate electric electronic message centers that are static and they would be change the the message would be changed not on a per minute, per 10 minute or per hour basis, but they could be static over the course of a day, a week, and then the message would change just like the person that goes out,

takes the letters off the sign, and puts new letters with new message. There's a way to do that. Um, is that in this packet? Because I certainly think that that's a missed opportunity. And I only say that because I see these people out there changing those signs and it's it's it's ownorous at best. Well, especially come January. Again, those locations, the schools generally, I drive past Lasal Springs Middle School on my way to work. I've seen two people out there. One holding the Yes. glass cover with the umbrella while the other is under the glass cover

changing the message. And certainly that's the worst case scenario. But I believe those signs are legacies. I think they're there and people use them because they are there. I don't know if the message drive by the one on Lasal by Lal Springs Middle School from south to north. There's about four lines of text. None of it is readable if you're on Route 109. So I assume they're doing the message so when people are at the stoplight waiting to enter onto Route 109 can read it.

There is an electronic message center at Eureka High School that's colorized. I can never make out the messages and I got glasses. It's not that I'm not I can't see. Well, I'm not I'm not for the electric. I I don't like that. But I I sure wish that we had a way to do a static one. I think that this

Well, I can certainly go to Mr. Burrat and ask him based upon your comment and I would ask also maybe this is worthy of a visit of the commission if the fire district was willing to go up and see theirs, see how they would manage it and actually see it in application if they're willing to do that. I mean, it's a serious enough issue. I'm not saying it isn't, but again, the commission may uh may support the department's recommendation, but there's already eight city council members on record saying we should do it.

Well, I I'm I I don't like the the message messages. Personally, I know that when I drive past Crest View Middle School, if there's constant motion and especially if it's raining or if you're driving by and there's things going on and to see that motion out the side of your eye can be a little jarring and it's bright and if we're talking about trying to keep the dark skies out here, especially along 109, that um that falls right into play with what we're saying here. I So, I I fully support the no uh electronic message boarding. I just wish there was a way, and maybe I'm just asking for a pie in the sky, but there was a way to let these people who have a static sign and a use for a static sign somehow creep into the 2025s that it would be so labor intensive.

So, we obviously we can create the legislation to accommodate what I think you want. It's a static electronic message board and the change in copy can only be done on after 10 days or whatever the situation might be. Can't be flashing, can't be anim animated, has to meet at 4,000K or less in terms of um in terms of brightness. We can do all of that. It's just as Mr. Marshall mentioned, we get into an enforcement end. What if somebody says, "Well, nobody's here from Wildwood. Let's turn it on and see how it works." And then, so you It's great when we all think people are going to adhere to the requirements we put in place, but they don't. I can tell you multiple wall signs where we specifically set a temperature, and as soon as the bulbs burnt out, they put brighter bulbs in it. And it took a while for us to figure it out. We had to spend money to bring out the lighting consultant to measure the illumination levels and then ask them to stop and replace and then quite frankly they show up business forums and say wellwood isn't businessfriendly.

Okay. So how do we manage the static signs that we have now? I'm going to use St. Albero as an example just because that's the one I'm most familiar with. How do we regulate their the time that they're on and the amount of light that they put out? Well, under our lot outdoor lighting requirements, most outdoor lighting should be off at 10:30 p.m. And that's one management tool for the dark sky. Um, and we do enforcement. We've got two cases in Village Plaza right now that we're working on. Um, generally speaking, we approve them consistent and compliant to the outdoor lighting requirements. We depend on the signed companies to do their job and follow the plan that was approved. And then we depend on the business owner or the landlord to basically ensure that their tenants and them are doing the right thing. It's a system of honesty.

I would love to hear from someone else on this board about the uh the static signs. That'd be great. Thanks. Let me let me say one thing real quick and then I'll

I I may be mistaken, but um I feel like it's either the fire station on Clayton Road across from Crest View or the Monarch station on Long Road. One of them I think has a electronic message board that and I feel like is almost always black lit black background with red letters and just to play devil's advocate. To me that's easier on the eyes at night and less glaring than driving by Babler Elementary with their bright white fully backlit stationary sign. And that may be the case. And

again, the department is just saying we have options already. This is a probably an option preferred by many of the entities that would like to have them whether a business institutional use or public taxing entity. But we know the devil we have. We don't know the devil we might get. Right. Commissioner Rubis, I I would support what microphone.

I would support what Vicki is saying. Um, it would be an electronic entity that could be changed remotely as opposed to having this stand out. But it it basically ought to be for identification of the facility. And you know, I I can just see driving down Manchester Road into Ellisville and Baldwin, there's quite a few of these signs and and they're always talking about a sale and and you know, all this garbage that I don't think we really want here. But if if the sign could meet our lighting standards, be I think the thing they would be gaining is the ability to change copy without having to stand in the rain and do individual letters. It should not be moving. It should be static and the the illumination everything is controlled by our our our lighting standards. And I I think that might be, you know, a kind of a a positive thing for people that want that, but I I don't want to see a bunch of, you know, casino type signs.

And I there's certainly a way to do that. Randy Burquette described it. Black black background. The color of the lighting could be red. It could be a yellow. It could be anything. It could be an illumination level that's less than 4,000K. And we could basically tell them the message can only change once a day and it has to be done around dawn where obviously there's fewer people. The message changes, people don't see it change. And we can do all of that, but again, I fall back on the one on the discussion we've had. We have to count on that entity agreeing to do it and doing it 365 days a year every year as long as the sign is in place and operational.

Well, that's kind of true on anything that the city levies on the citizenry. I mean, the law is only as good as the enforcement. That's correct. and and we have, you know, every time we approve something, we always have conditions attached. If they don't comply with the conditions, we're back to square one again.

Well, and the department's recommendation for the most part is saying this is a little bit more of an enforcement challenge than what we have anywhere else. And the reason being is the multiple steps, the equipment, the expertise, and then if we follow the economic development committee's recommendation, we're dealing with public taxing entities. So I'm sending warning notices to the fire chiefs, to the chancellor of the Wildwood campus, to the superintendent of the Rockwood School District. They have the same constituents as we do and they can use their bully public to basically say Wildwood's not being cooperative.

Mr. Hfrey,

well, I I will just tell you right now, they should have to comply just like everybody else. I don't care who they are. Having said that, with this gentleman that came and talked with us, one of the things that he said that was an option was um to have, for lack of a better term, like a shade at the top of the sign. So maybe that's an option is that if we allow these people, by these people I mean whoever we're talking about uh respectfully to have a a static lit sign that maybe we also require them to have the the uh shield at the top so that it doesn't uh affect drastically in the event that they don't play by the right rules. that that also is just one more barrier that they have to protect our night sky. And if they're required to have that at the beginning of putting up the sign, that's that's one more step. Um, but I I will say I do agree, Mr. Rubis, you know, it's only as everybody has to follow the rules. Everybody. I don't I don't care who they are.

And even more so even more so the big guys, right? the fire department and the police department and the parks, they should lead by example. I believe that more so than anything. City probably has the greatest number of set of rules and regulations and I think Mayor Garano and Council Member Marshall will tell you we need adhere to them just like we're everybody else because if can't trust your government, who can you? Councilman Marshall. Oh. All right.

Yeah. I think what I what I'm hearing council member Hellfrey saying is and and I also heard um sorry, Commissioner Hellfrey. Did I say Council Member Hrey? Uh so anyway, Commissioner Hellfrey, Commissioner Rubis describe probably, you know, the very most basic form of sign, which is the black background with some, you know, I think what we've seen is red type lettering. And you know, when I heard that, I kind of thought, well, that's like what the gas station has when you see the price. Mhm.

And I think where we have, you know, I don't know how that falls under how what set of rules. Be curious about that, but but I think one thing that's consistent is those don't change, you know, and don't we don't catch them change most of the time. They they just change, you know, maybe at 11:59 at night or once a week or something. But uh but they do change. It's just that we don't notice them, right? They're always just steady, just as a price and that's it. And and I heard you're you know what you're describing there about the challenges of you know having to go out there and making sure you're counting out your letters and then you realize you missed the letter and have to start over again. Uh so uh anyway, how's Yeah. Like that's pretty controlled when we talk about gas stations, right? And I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about that. And I would be all for a 10 or 10:30 shut off. I mean, I think we have to protect the dark sky. But yeah, could you elaborate a little bit on that? Because maybe if there is any hope of something like that, you know, and and I don't know that we're going to have the answer tonight. We may have to go back to the expert is to say, how do you how do you make it so controlled that it makes your job and enforcement as easy as possible, right? So in the current sign regulations, we have a lack of a better term a carve out for price signs at service stations which allows what you see. So we take into account and although the volatility of a gallon of gas and its cost may not be as great as it has been in the past, there used to be a time when that number changed quite frequently and could happen in just a matter of hours. So, we have a carve out and yes, um there is a motion on the

floor for approval of the department's report as written. What I would suggest is if there is the strong feeling I'm getting from the members, we need to go back figure out a way to do a more static sign that conveys a message. But like gas station pricing, you don't see it change, but it does change and it conveys the message the public entity wants. And so we can do that requirement to allow us to do a little bit more work on it. And before I get to Commissioner Hellfrey again, I will say with the gas stations at least, maybe they've changed with the updates they've done, but they used to be in the shape of an eight and you only you only had it could light it up in what whatever numbers you wanted.

So, well, I think that Yeah, when I think of control, if we're going to entertain something, you want to keep it probably as simple as possible. and and it's almost like you're replicating what is there today, but it's an electronic version of it. Uh, so I would be very specific in the font sizes so people don't start to get ideas that they can create big letters or you know like you know hate to say it but it be you know kind of just very consistent in what you see but if that's um if this is the modern version of what is the traditional I mean the gas station yeah they probably had to go out there with a poll and change the numbers

and so they figured out a way but it's very controlled right those numbers don't get bigger, they don't get smaller. They So, I think if the law specifically is like that, it hopefully accommodates the spirit of saying, "Hey, we hear you. You don't want to have a stat, you know, the uh traditional sign, but we'll have you do something. You don't have to go out in the cold and change it, but but we're not going to have it like Mr. Rubis, would you call it?" Or some Vegas style. Yeah, because I do I I've I've noticed some I drive down Clayton Road heading east and there there's some that are kind of flashy and all and you know I think that our residents would not be too thrilled about that and especially with the dark uh skies and some of these are very rural areas. you know, you get nine o'clock, 10 o'clock at night and there's not much lighting on these roads. That sign could be very bright. You know, uh it it's uh we don't want that to happen. So, I think the consultant address some of these things. There's ways to dim them, fade them, shutting it off at a certain time. But if we have the controls in place, hopefully we're not getting uh we're not creating u too many opportunities to for for it to be abused.

Um commissioner

you know those mobile signs that I I guess the city property that that give you clues of road stoppage being a road worker. I mean those are controlled illumination that you can't make them brighter or and I think that's if that mechanism is in the original sign that it's it's one illumination and that's it where you can't fiddle with it. I think we can figure out something if that's the direction the commission do we need to table the the motion postpone

potentially postpone yeah Councilman Marshall I I just wanted to throw a couple more things in under discussion but then I would also like to make a motion to amend the motion that was on the floor um if you go down Babler or I'm sorry Green Ponds Elementary January 10th they're having a PTO pizza night that's been up since January 5th. Their answer is they can't get the lock undone anymore, but they're going to wait until they can get a new electronic sign. So, I

Yeah, hopefully they can. It'll be a night they can do a pizza thing. So, anyway, there's so much abuse in the sign programs that we have and you really are kind of helpless and trying to do that. But I guess my question would be is those signs are all 30 years old. And so maybe the answer would be is someplace between the electronic message board and a static one or even one that they could change with an iPad that's included. Then the question would be is would you externally light them or internal because most of our violations are those are all internally lit and those go against every code we've had since we've had the city. So maybe we can go back and they're right now we know those are the churches have those and the others maybe we as a city could come back and say hey we have a solution you have an old 30-year-old sign you're not going to get electronic but here is something that you could get money has never been a problem for the schools because they have the parent teachers organization they have the class of you know uh 2026

and and that's how they they have the money so it's not like the taxpayers are paying where some of these other different organizations or churches do, but I just really believe there'd be a middle ground there where we could address those old signs. Not that everybody would change it, but it would at least let them know here's something that's cost-effective to change and it is new, same size platform that they have on it to really make it we've we've heard you and here's a solution that we have with those requirements, the brightness of it, the size of the lettering and that type. So instead of just always saying no is here's something you could do and then kind of move that forward. So I' if I you still got a little bit more discussion I guess but then I I'll be happy to make an amended motion after the discussion.

Okay. So one of the things is that's that someone said was the black background and I I think that we should not limit it to the black background. I think that they we should also allow it to be the white background with the black lettering. However, it needs to fall within that that amount of when you look away from the sign, you it's not a 10-second delay for your eyes to adjust. I think that if you limit it to the black background, I don't know. Kind of gives me a little bit of an ick. Anyway, um I think that the I will mention that we'll have to also post to amend our outdoor lighting requirements, which require a black background.

Well, all the signs that out here don't have black backgrounds. In my mind, I'll drive down 109 and tell you Babler doesn't. St. Alban Row doesn't. Lafayette doesn't have a black background. I mean, those are three right there, and not one of those has a black background. Babler Elementary School received a variance from our board of adjustment, right? St. Alen Row predates our adoption of our outdoor lighting requirements as well as La Springs Middle School. What about Lafayette High School? Um, that predates. Okay. So then I guess we need to jump up and get get in the current decade anyway then. But legal non-conforming structures, right?

As long as they don't expand them or heretically change them, we have to continue to allow them to exist. So then maybe we need to look at that as well because I think I mean if we're going to change this, we might as well do it right. Um Babler, my question was going to be for you for Babler. We allowed them to change their sign and we allowed them to backlight it. If I remember correctly, this was just like a year ago, right? Right. And we allowed them to backlight it, but it had to be a certain temperature and a certain darkness and they have to turn it off by 10:30 at night. Right.

That was my understanding. I'd have to check the variance conditions, but yes, they were under a set of conditions that were required if the board was going to support. So then I would request respectfully that we try to implement some of those things across the board, the letter size, have a shield uh at the top of the signs if we're going to let them be new that they have to be static. Um and then you know those kinds of things and then I refer back to Mr. Marshall. So thank you Mr. Vunage for all all your work on this too by the way. Yeah,

I didn't mean to throw a wrench in it. Sorry. I'm the one who was mentioning the black background with colored lettering and that's just because thinking of the electronic ones you have the black background it's at least not giving off any more light I just think there should be an option saying that they shouldn't do black saying they should they have an option but if you do but I will say if you do the white background with black lettering then you have the same situation you have at Babler right now where you've got this bright light. So you have to do tone it down.

Is are we getting the complaints about the Babler sign? I have not, Mr. Rubis. So now code enforcement may have, but we can certainly check it. I probably will now. Mayor Garana,

I do think it and we can find out from the consultant because I think if we're very specific with the black background and let's say the red lettering, then it may be limited to only signs that do not have any kind of background lighting. We have to make sure that if we open it up where we have white backgrounds, then there could be a setting that makes it red, green, and then all of a sudden we start to again start opening up avenues where people could potentially break the rules. So the more simpler it is, I think the cleaner it will be, you just not giving too many tools away where people can end up getting themselves into trouble. Councilman Marshall,

I I do know that um city's sign codes, several of them say you can only have three colors. I mean, they limit the colors that you're allowed to put on a sign. At least I know on Highway uh 40 cuz I had a sign out on the Monument Hill there. And you could do whatever you want in town of country as long as no more than three colors. So, you couldn't get real crazy. You had a black, white, and red. That was it. So, you picked what you wanted. So, that way you don't have the variety in order to do it. But I' I'd like to amend the motion to ask the department to um get with the consultant and to kind of review where we would be in the middle ground that I think the consensus is that we should have something to try to get these 35 to 40 year old signs, give people an option. Um, and then as we allow them that option is we put in the new requirements, the brightness, the times, and those type of items. So, I I'd like to um make that that the department would come back with a recommendation after you've talked to the sign consultants and we kind of get a a better understanding of how we I just think if we had a way to position it to these people that are asking so that they could deal with it versus I just say no, you can't do it anymore and then we spend all the time in courts trying to figure out how they can do that. So, I'd like to make that motion. I'll second.

All right. Um, any discussion on the motion? Mr. Chair, it will be the intent of the department to have this back on the September meeting. Okay. Um, all right. All right. Uh, voice vote on the amendment. All those in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? Right. The amendment passes. Um, I saw the fire chief with his hand up. Um, do you have something quick or [Music]

Yes. Uh, my name is Les Cruz. I'm the assistant chief for the Monarch Fire Protection District. And, uh, I would support the the, uh, planning and zoning commission at least take a good look at this. But, let me try to answer some of the questions that I heard. And if I run over my time, just let me know. As far as the capability of these signs, and I can't speak for all of them. I'm not a sign salesman. Can they be a static message display board so I don't have to go out there in a pouring down rain? The answer would be yes. I could do it from my phone. Joe, I know you might find that it it but whatever the message is you want to put, just think of it as I'm at a computer. I'm on a web-based site and I'm putting the message down and it goes to that sign. Okay? So, that's the simplicity of it. uh colors. I'd pick and choose the colors, whether it be a black background, red letters, whatever else, because what you're telling that program to do is what color of lights do you want to be displayed. So that's the enduser decides all of that. So whether I got a white background, a black background, I do that. I'm sure you've seen your fair share of PowerPoint presentations in your time on the council or in the commissions. Just think of that message creator as creating a PowerPoint messages. What do you want to be on the board? You program it in there and that's how it appears. Whether it be colors, font size, and the message. You know what we look at is, let's face reality, the motorist is driving by. I got to get their attention and I got a short time span to do that. So, it's going to have to be something pretty quick and not something very wordy because they're going to drive by and they only caught the first thing. So, what what I would suggest, you know, for like us, you know, what would we put on it? Uh for us, we're not selling anything other than life-saving messages. And then we could get pretty creative from the weather alerts, uh educational messages, Amber alerts like I believe Mr. Boon did, road closures, something quick, something that gets their attention is probably what you

would see. Uh let's do I'll do this CPR class screen one date, time, and location. So boom, boom. They can rotate those panels through real quick. Uh what's your messages going to be? your cycle of how many you want to cycle through, the frequency and the time. That's all up to programming. So, it's pretty simple. I have to get their attention. Uh, you know, the sign design would determine what that sign will and won't do. And I bet you the majority of these sign manufacturers are all copying off of each other. So, I would be surprised if you would see a lot of difference. Uh, daytime, night time, day mode, night mode. uh for us even on our computer screens in the emergency apparatus we look at two different lighting schemes because it's easier to be seen with the eyes dark mode versus light mode so I all of those capabilities are in there um you know so I think it's something that you would want to look at and consider you know just to say that from an ease of convenience so I don't have to get wet to go outside that's great but I think there's you would want to open it up in some capacity to allow them to as opposed to keeping a a static message to let it be a changing message. And I know this from just the time that we've dealt with ours. I better get my message across pretty quick because they're zooming down the road. Yes, sir. Sometimes that you'll see somebody turn around and come back and take that second look, but that sign creator has to be pretty creative. I'll try to answer any other questions, but they're pretty simple, pretty straightforward, and I think the majority of the sign manufacturers out there are going to be able to meet the concerns that you had here this even.

Thank you for that. I will say I think some of our concerns are because of that flexibility in those signs that you mentioned. I think some of us are looking for I I'm just thinking those ones that you can almost get at like Sam's or Costco where they've got the one line of text that's just scrolling across, right? And I know we don't want it scrolling, but something like that where it's static is what I think a lot of us are kind of going for. Um, but yeah, thank you very much.

Thank you for your time. Appreciate it. All right. Hey chair, if uh if at all possible, I think just given the time and also because the staff has been, you know, working a long day and so there's hardly any air conditioning in this room and we can kind of uh pick up the pace with the rest of the agenda here. All right. No, I I understand. Um, so we we still have a motion on the floor, but to um we've approved the amendment. She's got a motion. So um and we have second.

So we're at a point where we need to vote on the the copy from the department plus the amendment. Mr. Chair. Yes, sir. Original motion by Mr. Clayton, seconded by um excuse me, seconded by Commissioner Hry uh was to approve the department's recommendation as recommended. Right. Mr. Marshall's motion was to direct the department to go back to the consultant and consider some kind of a middle ground and explore what was being discussed by the commission. Uh so I don't know. I feel like we need a motion to postpone or I took Mr. Marshall's motion to be a postponement with direction to find the middle ground.

Okay. All right. In that case, we'll be postponed and come back next month. Next month is my plan. Yeah. And then we could have your recommendations for the other sign part part of that next time. Yes, sir. Thank you. All right. Mr. Chair, I have a favor to ask. Yes, sir.

Um, Mr. Brown just concluded a meeting with his with the administration public works committee of city council and the department will respectfully request that we could move forward the item relating to the multiple use trail that is being proposed from the villages of Brightleaf to Green Pines Park. If we could amend the agenda to accommodate that first I think Mr. Brown and I would be very appreciative of the commission. All right. Motion to Does that need a motion? All right. Motion to amend the agenda. All right. By Commissioner Hry, second by Councilman Marshall. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? And you abstain.

Thank you very much. No problem. So, let's see here. I guess the All right. There's no PZ number. So, go ahead, Mr.

Thank you. A recommendation report of the Department of Planning to the Planning and Zoning Commission regarding a capital improvement program project of the city of Wildwood that will construct a mult multipleuse trail from its current terminus on the northern boundary of the villages of Bright Leaf subdivision to the city's Green Pines Park. Such improvement to be located within the former rightway dedication of Pondrover Loop Road, now Pondrover Parkway. Zoning designations of the surrounding area include several dist different residential zoning districts with overlay types included as well which will provide a continuous connection from the town center to state route 109 community park Lafayette high school and many other major public and private spaces ward 5. Thank you Mr. Newberry. Mr. Vinich.

Thank you again Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission. The department has prepared a recommendation report relative to this proposed city project. We've constructed a multipleuse trail that will make a connection from the villages at the Brightleaf on the south side to Green Pines Park on the north side. The trail is partially funded by federal grant and local funds. And the trail will be a welcome addition to the city's system and network of trails of all types. As you know, there is the Wildwood Greenway corridor that parallels Route 100 and Route 109. There are Hamilton Car Greenway and many others that have been constructed over the last 30 years. In this particular instance, the Department of Public Works has the availability of a 70 foot wide rideway that was dedicated as part of the Hickory Manor Hickory Manor Estates to accommodate a future arterial road that would form a loop system around the interchange of State Route 100 and State Route 109. That was part of St. Louis County Department of Transportation's highway system plan. Obviously, the city of Wildwood when it incorporated decided that the loop road system may not be the ultimate design. And in fact, as part of the discussion on the villages at Brightleaf, the decision was made not to proceed forward with construction of a roadway in the rightway. Having the excess rideway, the city first utilized it for the Pines Park and now is proposing a multipleuse trail. The trail will be 10 ft in width, have a variety of slopes, some as great as 8% and others that are level 1% and

will connect again to a core area of town center on the south to the area north which includes community park, Lafayette High School and multiple residential subdivisions. So tonight, the department is recommending approval of the set of plans for this trail. And with that, if Mr. Brown would like to add anything to discussion, I yield the podium. Commission members, I feel obliged to come up here and say a few words. Joe does a wonderful job with his presentations. I don't have too much extra to add. I think this is an excellent project that'll get a lot of use. It's an excellent connection and a good use of the rightway that we have in place. So design of the project is well underway. Uh we have to acquire one easement essentially from the adjacent HOA to construct the project. Uh if we can work through the easement acquisition in short order and I expect the HOA will be a cooperative. We could be able to bid the project hopefully yet this year and then be under construction next year. So, it's about a 370,000 to $400,000 project right now. We do have about a total of $267,000 in federal funds that will be used to fund that amount of work. So, uh, with that, I'll wrap up. If there's any questions, I'll be glad to ask them or answer them, excuse me.

All right. Thank you, Mayor Garano. I'll make a motion to approve the green pine path connector uh with the necessary landscaping component addressed as noted in the uh documentation. Second by Commissioner Helffrey. Any discussion? All right. Seeing none, roll call vote. Commissioner Clayton, yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Commissioner Borren, yes. Thank you. Um, Commissioner Hoffrey, yes. Commissioner Conn, yes. Chair Batty, yes. Council member Marshall, yes. And Mayor Garitano.

Motion carries. Thank you. All right, let's see here. Um, next on the agenda, uh, the Portner Park Group. Uh, yeah, Mr. Newberry.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. A report with recommendation from the partner park ad hoc group regarding its completion of a master plan for this 27 acre park area being located on the west side of Hanken Road south of state route 100 in non-urban residence district which supports the sevenmonth effort of this group of seven volunteers to provide a cost-effective fund and safe public facility for residents and visitors to this future site corresponding to the deed restrictions set by the parks donor Joanne Yost board six. All right. Thank you Mr. Newberry Mr. Vich.

Mr. Chair and members of the commission, the department has prepared a recommendation report for consideration of the members relative to the master plan that has been developed by a group of volunteers for Fortner Park. Fortner Park is located on Hanken Road south of Route 100 and is 27 acres in size. The owner of the property, Miss Joanne Yos, donated it to the city in 2018. And since that time, the department has been working on maintaining the property and most recently since the end of 2024, developing a plan for its future use. The ad hoc group conducted several public input sessions to gauge first support of the park in the general vicinity which is ward 6 and then to hear any suggestions in terms of improvement levels and type and location. Ultimately, the group decided that this should be more of a passive space and ultimately developed the property with a system of trails. Two that are ADA accessible, the others being natural surface, a small parking lot, a restroom facility, and one large shelter and two smaller shelters. The intent is to highlight the character of the property and its environment as well as to take advantage of the pond which is the only city property that has a water feature. So fishing is encouraged. Tonight, the ad hoc group or Bertner Park has completed its task, has recommended approval of design as presented to the commission. And as with all plans of this nature, the planning and zoning commission must act upon it in a favorable manner or to proceed forward to ultimate um development. If there are any questions regarding this

particular master plan and the process that was used to develop it, partner would be glad to answer them at this time. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Mr. Vinnich. Um, any discuss Councilman Marshall? Only because every park we do, we run into this problem. I believe there are eight parking spaces at Green Pines and we've got the street blocked with cars. Is there any potential for additional parking at this considering you have three pavilions and people who just want to fish?

Well, two of the structures are just shade structures are very small. I would liken them to the type we have at John Ela Cave Memorial Trail Head, four seaters with a small shade structure over the top. The one um the one main structure pavilion I believe accommodates only four picnic tables. So, and we had a discussion at the open house about rent rent renting that being able to do reservations and the feeling was with the limited number of parking spaces and its size, it would be first f first come first serve. Saying all of that, we did originally have a plan that doubled the number of parking spaces and ultimately the group felt it was appropriate to lessen them and there is available grass parking if the weather permits. And Commissioner Rubis,

will the pond have an aation system or anything to keep it viable? Actually, it does not have one now, and it is in very, very good shape. I believe it to be maybe somewhat springfed, but I can't guarantee that. We have an immediate repair. The dam has um some erosion scars just because it hasn't been maintained for a number of years because there was a challenge to the donation that had to work its way through probate. But all in all, the pond is in very good shape.

And I I have to ask, the trails will be hiking only, I assume. Actually, the only prohibition the group recommended is no equestrian and bicycle would be limited to the hard surface trails and the grass trail that parallels Hanken Road to provide a safe route. Okay. All right. Commissioner Hoffrey,

I know that Mr. Gitano wants us to hurry up, but I just want to know why no equestrian. Um actually there is a group of equestrian enthusiasts that approached the city before we began the master plan process. The department of planning and parks made them available to our planning and parks committee of city council and ultimately that group decided that equestrian wouldn't be appropriate for several key reasons. The size of the facility, 27 acres, doesn't lend itself well, and there are two meadow areas, but the rest of the site is very, very challenging topographically, and there were just concerns that they would damage it. Okay, thank you. I'm going to make a motion to approve. Do we have one of those already? We don't.

Okay, I'll do that. Yeah, I'll All right. Motion by Commissioner Hellfrey, second by Commissioner Rubis. Looks like we just lost our connection. It gets tired this time of night. He needs a bit of a break. It'll be back on shortly. If Commission If Commissioner Borne can still hear us and indicate such, we can move forward with a vote. I can still hear you. Thank you. Okay, great. Which means the recording is also capturing it. Okay. Thank you. All right. Um, so any further discussion? I missed the second as the Oh, uh, Helry and Rubis,

thank you very much. I appreciate that. So, all right. Seeing no more discussion, roll call vote. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Commissioner Borin, yes. Commissioner Hoffrey, yes. Commissioner Con, yes. Commissioner Clayton, yes. Chair Batty, yes. Council member Marshall, yes. Mayor Garitano, thank you. Car, thank you. All right. Next up, Mr. Newberry, PZ5-24,

site development plan, SDP/ preliminary plat recommendation report of the Department of Planning to the Planning and Zoning Commission regarding PZ 5-24, Etheton Heights, revised a proposed three lot residential subdivision to be platted on attractive land that is 3 acres in size with subject site situated on the east side of Etherton Road, north of its intersection with Manchester Road, street address 2522 Etherton Road, St. Louis County. Locator number 24V530560 R1A 22,000T residence district town center neighborhood edge and neighborhood general districts which supports the plan plan/plat as submitted given compliance to the zoning ordinance subdivision and development and regulations and town center plan W 8.

Thank you Mr. Newberry Mr. Vinnich.

Thank you again Mr. Chair, Mr. Chair and members of the planning and zoning commission department has prepared for your consideration a recommendation report regarding this proposed three lot subdivision of a 3acre parcel of ground located on the east side of Etheon Road just north of Manchester Roads. Each of the three lots will be approximately one acre in size and each is planned to have a single family detached dwelling constructed upon it. Per the discussions that were held by the planning and zoning commission over the course of the reszoning that was supported by this group and city council. The residences will all face Etherton Road which is consistent with the development pattern and the housing placement that exists there. Now, additionally, storm water management was a key component of the discussion relative to this particular reszoning and was a key component of the review of the project by the Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District, our department of public works as well as the parking and planning. Each of the lots will have on-site storm water management in the form of a rock sump, amended soils, rain gardens or other. And all of the storm water that is generated is intended to be captured by the bio retention basin and treated for water quality purposes. We believe we've addressed the key concern relative to storm water runoff. And again, we will spend a great deal of time ensuring that the installation of the swale and the bio retention basin and other treatments are done in accordance with approved plans. As you can see, the house sizes are going to be fairly large. They are all proposed to be ranches and each of them will have to go through architectural review board of the city before construction can begin. They are

side entry garages. So the face the garage the garage door issue facing the primary street is mitigated by that and all in all we have a threeacre we have a three lot subdivision on 3 acres in the heart of town center and the department is recommending approval there any questions or comments the department would be glad to answer them at this time and thank you. Thank you Mr. Vich Commissioner Holry. Um I I make a motion to approve and I have a question. Is there a natural resource protection line on these anywhere?

Uh no ma'am. In count center we do not apply the natural resource protection standards because if we did we would never get the density that the land use categories of the regulating plants support. It's just practically impossible. We tried it early early on in 1998. What we found is is that they work great in the suburban and non-urban area for town center. The parking lots, building footprints and density we want for residential. It's just we were granting too many variances. Well, I just wanted to make sure that they actually if they were going to have this size of lot and this size of house that they could actually use their that's why I asked. So,

well, the house size is to the department inconsequential because house sizes are used generally to discriminate. But I will tell you the lot sizes will be as proposed under the preliminary plan if approved tonight. All right. So, Councilman Marshall, Mr. Vunage, still need a second. By the way, I I'll second it. Then I then we can discuss and I have I ask my question. Okay. Um Eington Road, it's never getting any wider. It looks as if you got some easement back. Uh and I know that this is only for what, 300 feet or something like that. Are we back far enough that as maybe some other development occurs through there that we could make the the street wider?

Yes, we're getting a land dedication plus an additional easement. And the intent is actually to escrow a special escrow, meaning a a deposit of funds to the city for a 10-ft wide trail along that portion of the frontage. Mr. Brown, our director of public works, and the department of planning, have lengthy discussion. require the construction of the trail and the feeling was is it would go to the lots to the south which had the bungalows on them that are very very close to the edge of the street. So the thought was why create a potential issue. Let's get the escrow and then when we do the overall plan we can use money to um contribute to the project. So it so you won't I I would because I was going to ask about a sidewalk and so you won't build it yet. Is that what I'm hearing?

The intent is not to build it, but we'll have the rightway dedication the easement area to accommodate a 10-ft wide trail. If something changes radically different, we'll certainly do it as quickly as we can. Okay. Discussion. All right. Seeing none, roll call vote. Commissioner Hoffrey, yes. Commissioner Con, yes. Commissioner Clayton, yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Commissioner Borne, yes. Thank you. Chair Batty, yes. Council member Marshall, yes. Mayor Gano. Thank you.

All right. Motion carries. Thank you. Thank you. Right. Um, next on the agenda, the report from the nominating committee on officers for the next year. And so that looks like I will give the summary. Please, if you don't mind, sir.

Yeah. Uh so Commissioner Deppler, Commissioner Hleffrey and I met and we proposed an officer Slate for next year of um myself continuing as chair, Commissioner Hillefrey as vice chair and Commissioner Rubis as secretary. Um if he is agreeable to that um [Laughter] [Music] If there are any other nominations from the floor, we'll open it or a discuss or a motion to con confirm the uh officers as recommended.

I'll make a motion to approve. All right. Motion by Commissioner Borne. Is there a second? Seconded by Commissioner Clayton. Um, all those in any more discussion. All right. All those in favor? Uh, I guess roll roll call vote probably, right? Voice is fine. Oh, voice is fine. All right. All those in favor say I. I. I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? Congratulations officers planning and zoning commission. We have a perfect one right out in front of Main Street. I'll show it to you.

And Mr. Vunich, an update on the paperless. Um,

thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission. As was described back in April of this year, our planning and parks committee administration and public works committee and our economic development committee of city council have all chosen to go to paperless agendas so to speak. meaning agendas are printed for the meeting but at each um meeting a QR code is provided so that individuals can come in basically scan the QR code access the agenda and all the attachments associated with it. The effort to go paperless was asked to be extended to other boards and commissions. This planning the planning and zoning commission was one of the first to take up the task and in April the decision was made to go paperless with the QR code and to be under a test period of three months May, June and July. July concluded and tonight we are presenting you the findings. We did receive one comment from Miss Wilcox who asked that there be a few item few paper items for each of the agendas uh components still produced but other than that there has been no discussion or no comments that I've received. So tonight the department is saying the test period appears to have been successful other than one comment which there was a request for paper copies and other than that we would like to proceed forward or under a paperless agenda future. There any questions or comments? The department be glad to answer them. If not a motion and second to go paperless as we have in the past three months would be appropriate with a voice vote. Thank you.

All right. Thank you, Mr. Vinch. Commissioner Hy, we'll still get site plans though, right? The big site plans when we need those, right? The big ones. Uh certainly the planning and zoning commission will get paper paper copies of the plans and things like this. This is generally for the public that attends the meetings and walks in before

they can scan the QR code. And certainly anybody that calls, we make a we'll be glad to make paper copies, but we, as you know, used to make a dozen copies of everything. And by the end of the by the time the meeting was over, we threw almost all of them away. And even ones that got picked up and were reviewed during the meeting, they would leave them on the chair or put them back on the table. I'll make a motion to approve. I'll second. All right. Any more discussion? All right. Seeing none, all those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain?

And again, if you all ever want a paper copy of the packet or any of the items, we'll always be glad to produce them for the commission members. And if it's easier to read the larger plan sets, you can do that as well. We've come accustomed to 11 by 17 size for the plan sheets. It just makes it easier to review on a on a desk or a table. Oh, for sure. But if you want larger ones, just let us know. Thank you. Thank you. And that brings us to the end. So, motion to adjurnn. I I got it. Yeah.

This is a comment or observation, but I know we're approaching the 30th anniversary of the city. And as we look at our monitors, it still says 25th anniversary of the city of Wildwood. And I'm curious, are we going to change the logo at a minimum? Maybe change it to 30 something rather than 25th anniversary. Mr. Cohen, that relates to the city's Zoom account and I can change that before I leave tonight. Motion to adjurnn. All right. Motion by Commissioner Co, seconded by Commissioner Clayton. All those in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? All right. We're journed. Thank you.