City Council - Regular Meeting
The Redmond City Council proclaimed July 2026 as Parks and Recreation Month, recognizing the city's commitment to green spaces and community well-being. Public comments primarily focused on the Interlake Sporting Association, with members advocating for a negotiated solution regarding operating hours and sound mitigation, and concerns raised about misinformation provided to new residents. The Council also approved several consent agenda items and received ombuds and committee reports.
About this meeting
- Government Body
- City Council
- Meeting Type
- City Council
- Location
- Redmond, WA
- Meeting Date
- July 7, 2026
Transcript
38 sections
Thank you.
I'm calling this meeting to order. This is a regular business meeting of the Redmond City Council held on Tuesday, July 7th, 2026, commencing at 7 o'clock p.m. I will call roll, starting with Council President Stewart. Here. Council Vice President Nueva Camino. Here. Council Member Forsyth. Here. Council Member Prakria.
Here.
Council Member Parsi. Here. Council Member Soni. Here. And Council Member Kritzer. Here. The first item on the agenda is a proclamation for Parks and Recreation Month. Whereas the U.S. House of Representatives and the National Recreation and Park Association have designated July as Parks and Recreation Month, and whereas the City of Redmond parks, trails, and community spaces serve an essential public infrastructure where residents of all ages, incomes, and abilities can access physical activity, mental restoration, social connection, and a sense of belonging, building resilience and common ground in an increasingly complex world, and whereas the City's Green Redmond Program which has thousands of volunteer hours dedicated to restoring more than 1,000 acres of forested parkland, continues to grow through expanded forest steward opportunities and community events. And whereas the City of Redmond is committed to a healthy, sustainable future through our Climate Resiliency and Sustainability in Vegetation Management Plan, and our annual tree giveaway program, advancing our goal of 40% urban tree canopy coverage by 2050. And whereas the completion of Redmond Central Connector phase three provides a continuous accessible trail connection between downtown Redmond and Kirkland, expanding equitable access to parks and open spaces for all, And whereas the City of Redmond Parks and Recreation Department provide inclusive and dynamic opportunities from sports leagues and day camps to team programming and senior activities guided by a newly completed recreation program plan that ensures our services reflect the long-range needs and priorities of our growing and diverse community. And whereas the City of Redmond is ready for the world with the World Cup underway in our region, bringing residents and visitors together through watch parties, celebrations, and a permanent legacy installation in downtown park, And whereas community events such as Derby Days and Redmond Lights foster belonging and civic pride, while new programming brings even more residents together to celebrate the culture and spirit that make Redmond home. And whereas the City of Redmond is committed to cultural creativity and economic vibrancy through art education, performances, public art, local artist training, and the new art map, helping residents discover over 100 works of public art. Now, therefore, I, Angela Burney, Mayor of the City of Redmond, do hereby proclaim July 2026 as Park and Recreation Month. and encourage all community members to participate in recreational activities and enjoy Redmond's beautiful parks, trails, and public art this summer. And to receive this proclamation, I have two of our green Redmond forest stewards, Alex Koo and Irene Koo, a brother and sister that have worked on this program. And I'd love for them to come up with their family. And they have a few words to say. We can get a picture. Come on up. Come on up, mom and dad. We'll get a picture and then Alex and Irene will say a few words. Okay, we'll do this and then we'll...
Who's first?
Yeah, thank you Mayor and members of the City Council. I'm really honored to be receiving this proclamation on behalf of the Green Redmond Forest Stewardship Program. And for the past three years, we've all been working at different parks in Redmond. Specifically, I've been working at Smith Woods. And throughout our work, we've noticed that you can actually see a difference in these parks now compared to three to four years ago. Before the whole park was all covered in invasive plants such as the Himalayan blackberry. But now it's so much, it's so much, you can see that it's so much, there's so much less blackberry and invasive plant coverage in the park. And I think it's a really great achievement for us forest stewards to accomplish. And joining this program has been a really great experience for me so far, and I'm looking forward to continue to grow with this program. I'm going to now pass it on to my brother.
Hello. Like my sister has already said, I am very proud, along with my family and all of the other Forest Stewards, to be receiving this proclamation on behalf of the Forest Steward Program. And for me myself, a little bit about Smith Woods itself, I actually started when I was around three years ago, when I was about three years old. So that's like seven years ago, roughly. And back then, I just used kind of this... park restoration thing as more of a excuse to play in the dirt with my sister than really like, okay, it's recreation, I'm actually doing something like helpful. But like over the years, especially through the past three or four years, I've actually come to notice like, okay, as a forest steward, I can actually help like change a lot of things. Because like normally when you like walk into like Smith Woods, you come across a lot of like Himalayan blackberry, but now it's more of like a haven for like a lot of like young trees and native plants. And overall, I feel like that the Forest Student Program has definitely helped change not only Smith Woods, but a lot of like other parks around the city of Redmond for better as well. So yeah, thank you guys.
Well, thank you both so much. I feel like we should use you for an ad for why it's good for people to come out and help our forests. You both did such an amazing job, and thank you to your parents, too, who I'm sure have supported you in all of this work you've done for Smith Woods. So we're going to invite any other forest stewards up? We got a few? Any more? Come on up. We're going to get a big group picture. Come on up. I'm going to stand behind.
You ready? Can you see him? Yeah, I can.
The next item on the agenda is items from the audience. I have the sign-in sheet for members of the public to speak tonight. When I read your name, you will come up to the podium and have three minutes to address the council. Council members generally will not respond to comments or questions directly at the meeting. Members of the public are welcome to email the council anytime at mayorcouncil at redmond.gov. The views stated by members of the public do not represent the opinion of the City of Redmond. And as a reminder, RCW 29B45010 prohibits any public comment during the council meeting in support opposition of ballot propositions, measures, or candidates. All comments must pertain to the City of Redmond business as indicated on the sign-in sheet. There are nine people signed up to speak tonight and no one has signed up to speak remotely. So I usually start with the first four names or so so you know when you're coming up next. So we're going to start with Nathan Gibbs, Casey Gilliam, Nathan Parker, and Pedro Lopez.
Are we ready? Yeah. All right, thank you. Good evening, my name is Nathan Gibbs and I'm the president of Interlake Sporting Association. Would the members of Interlake Sporting Association please raise your hands? Thank you. ISA has been repeatedly demonized by people who want to shut us down. Easily refuted falsehoods about the club have been repeatedly promoted in these sessions. For example, that we are the only outdoor range in Washington near a neighborhood, or that shooting occurs at ISA outside of prescribed hours. These are both untrue. Despite our engagement with the city and efforts to dispel these falsehoods about the club, they continue to affect this discussion. The proposed ordinance changes have seen our hours continually reduced from when the changes were first proposed to now. For example, the earliest drafts had us open 9 to 5 on Saturday. The current proposal is 10 to 2. There is no legitimate justification for these reductions from the city's initial proposal, and no explanation has been provided. All we have done is try to work with the city toward common sense solutions and dispel untruths about the club, but the proposals keep getting worse for ISA. Despite this, ISA remains committed to a negotiated solution. What we propose is win-win, predictable hours, sound mitigation that we'll pay for. The proposed ordinance revision as it stands now is lose-lose. Less available time for working club members, increased noise for neighbors. 10 to 2 is not enough time for classes or trainings that typically have to take place on weekends so working people may participate. 10 to 2 will compress sound exponentially during that period, substantially increasing noise for neighbors. ISA has an exemplary safety record throughout its almost 80-year history. That is a proven fact. ISA has made voluntary changes to its operating procedures to be considerate of its neighbors. This is a proven fact. We are asking you to work with us, not against us. 10 to 6 on Saturday, along with the other current revisions, is a reasonable common sense compromise. From the very beginning, our solutions have been not just for ourselves, but for the surrounding neighborhood as well. We are your friends, your neighbors, working professionals, and constituents of this community. We ask that you adopt our compromise proposal, which is the best solution for both ISA and the surrounding neighborhoods. Thank you very much for your time.
Next is Casey Gilliam, then Nathan Parker, then Pedro Lopez, then Peter Jarvis.
I'm Casey Gilliam. Thanks for your time. To expand on a couple of the points that Nathan's brought up regarding clarifications, as it were, there's a misconception that Interlake has increased our operations. We've had a bit of a decline in our operation timeframes. reduced hosting events that have large quantities of shooters simultaneously, such as Project Appleseed, which is a great program for getting kids into shooting .22s and such. But unfortunately, that's a lot of people shooting at once and we wanted to be good neighbors. We suspended our shotgun and trap program. And in our general usage, partially due to our current length of operating time in a day. By and large, we don't, well, sorry, it's the sound compression thing that we keep going on about. We have a commitment to safety. We do have an exemplary safety record. One of the reasons for that is our comprehensive membership intake process. order to join someone has to be sponsored by a member that member has to bring them to the range give them a tour explain to them all of the very strict procedures and policies that we have then they have to take a pretty comprehensive online training course complete a written test and a background check and then they take a practical safety exam this is not only to prove that they are competent and safe with firearm handling, but also that they can safely manage a range and manage any guests that they have. We have zero tolerance policies regarding our rules, which are exceptionally stringent. And as a result, we've got a very good record. All right, well, that's it, I'm sorry.
Next is Nathan Parker, then Pedro Lopez, then Peter Jarvis, then Erin Hamilton.
Thank you, City Council, for your time. My name is Nathan Parker. I'm a member at Interlake, and I just wanted to speak to what Nathan was speaking to about mitigating sound footprints in urban environments. So at Interlake, we're not the only outdoor shooting range in a suburban and urban environment in this area. There's several. There's some in Renton and Kenmore and Ravensdale and all throughout the area, and they have all managed to get this far in their history without any significant noise complaints or lasting noise complaints in regards to their their neighbors that have come up around them and they've done so without reducing their hours and they've done it by using physical sound mitigation which is something that we have proposed doing and the benefit to physical sound mitigation is that it's relatively easy to do comparatively the engineering solutions already exist and they use the earthen berms that all these ranges are built upon. They're easy to deploy and they are all the engineering solutions are available. So in many cases, the slowest part of all these processes is getting the permits or securing the funding for this. So at Interlake, we've already done a great deal of, we've done the sound studies, we've We've had plans with engineering firms and construction firms. We've done geological surveys to make sure this is happening. We've developed a sound mitigation investment strategy and it is something that we are ready to act on and we are just awaiting support from the city council to do so. So thank you for your time.
Next is Pedro Lopez, then Peter Jarvis, then Aaron Hamilton, then Oluju.
Good evening, Mayor and council members. My name is Pedro Lopes. I am a member of Interlake and I thank you for the opportunity to speak. I'm going to read a written statement. Redmond has been part of my day-to-day for many years, professionally and personally, and this is my community, and that's exactly why I'm urging you to slow down before you vote on a final resolution for the Interlake Sporting Association's future. The association is a place close to home where my family can safely practice outdoor shooting sports, and it's also brought together a community that's truly diverse economically, culturally, ethnically, and even politically. People literally from six continents standing side by side on a commonly enjoyable activity. I've also watched being a mental health lifeline against isolation for older members. That is real community benefit and it deserves to be weighed in as seriously as any noise complaint. Practically speaking, the proposed hours make this club nearly unusable for anyone with a job like me. Full Sunday or holiday closures make that even worse. That wouldn't be reducing noise, that would be closing the club for working people. I also want to be fair to the council in that not everyone here has approached the issue the same way. I was at the May 26 session where a council member proposed a staggered hours framework and was all but shut down. That actually takes a predictability concern voiced by another council member seriously without resorting to draconian closures. It also deserves really credit and development. So paired with it, there are other concrete options to consider. Paper target only hours, smaller caliber windows, subsonic only periods, suppressed firearm hours. Any combination of these could be a meaningful way to cut noise impact while preserving access to members. So this is an engineering problem when engineering answers, and it deserves serious study before anyone's access is truly cut. At the same session, I watched the association repeatedly being called a business when it's actually a member-run nonprofit, not much different from a church or a social club. I also heard our members characterized in ways that do not reflect the people I know, people from many backgrounds, Democrats, Republicans, independents, engineers, lawyers, contractors, plumbers, and even retired folk. That mischaracterization matters because it makes a community easier to dehumanize, to dismiss, instead of being listened to. On that day, I was reminded of a quote by an author named Stephen Covey, that we should seek first to understand, then to be understood. I'd ask this council to hold itself to that standard, engage with the technical mitigations before reaching for blanket restrictions. I would finally remind the council of a simple fact. The association was here first. It predates the homes built around it by decades. We don't shut down airports or highways because someone built a house nearby later. We define win-win coexisting frameworks. And that fairness should be applied here. So I urge you to treat this as a problem to solve together, not one to resolve by attrition. Thank you for your time.
Next is Peter Jarvis and Aaron Hamilton, then Oluju, then Wolf Adriatico.
I want the council to understand some of the 40 years of operational restrictions we brought into place as the neighborhood built up around us. If we go back to the late 1980s when the Willows Crest neighborhood was being planned, we raised our hands at that planning meeting and said, you know there's a shooting sports facility there? Open from 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. The mayor said, there'll be no issue, there'll be sound walls. No sound wall was built. Also, the developer thanked us by suing us for our existence devaluing their properties, and they lost that lawsuit. Despite that, we worked with Rosemary Ives at the time. She called me two weeks ago to remind me that we actually voluntarily reduced our hours as a result of the Willows Crest being built. With the Rose Hill in 2010, in the 2010s, we again raised our hand and said, There's a shooting sports facilities here. The city examiner said, buyer beware, all neighborhoods have their issues. People that make a decision to move into that neighborhood need to factor in that there's a shooting sports facility there. But despite that message from the city, we worked with council member Carlson and the staff member Cole McCarthy for over a decade, collaborating on various grant, can there be grants for the developers to place trees, various operational restrictions, and there's a, my colleagues talked earlier, one of the big ones was spreading out our usage to remove the concentrated usage. An example being stopping every weekend we had, sorry, one weekend a month we had 10 to 14 people at a class, which were very concentrated, drew lots of complaints, and in response to Council Member Carlson reaching out to us, we cancelled that. In December 2023, there was a real temperature change from the staff. It's like we suddenly moved from collaborative partners to being perceived as people that had done something wrong and needed to be taught a lesson. This points to a deeper problem that when staff and council members change, that institutional memory is lost and it allows extreme voices that make false statements and claims that then lead to ignoring our partnership with the city that's happened in the past. So I want to thank Council Member Parsi for taking time to talk with reasonable neighbours and recognising that much better solutions exist. Your comments earlier this evening were a ray of light. I also want to thank Council Member Parsi and Prakria for you acknowledged how much the extra time and salaries would mean to the club. This moment offers a chance for us to pause and hit refresh. And I noticed signs of that earlier this evening during the Committee of the Whole discussion. However, achieving that true reset means the city must engage with us honestly and openly, something that hasn't happened so far. We keep hearing that council members' only goal is to approve the hour reduction code change. Code change is the only solution. What we're asking for is a genuine negotiated and lasting resolution. We're prepared, is the city.
Next is Aaron Hamilton, then Oluju, then Wolf Adriatico, then David Morton.
This is part three of my pride speech. Last year on June 2nd, I stood here and told you the actual reality of being a trans woman in Redmond. So I think it's time for an update. Shocking to nobody, I feel less safe. If anybody has followed the news, you shouldn't be surprised. Recently, a 19-year-old trans woman was stabbed 40 times to death, a number of trans women being violently beaten across the area. I've been very fortunate that the multiple times this year men have threatened my life and physical violence were cowards. They were probably too intimidated by this skinny, 130-pound trans woman. but it's only a matter of time for that cowardliness to turn into courage. Each of those times have been in packed bars, restaurants, and locker rooms here in Redmond. After I stood up for myself, these so-called allies come up afterwards and told me, you know everybody here has your back. And I'm like, I'm sorry, you have my back? Where the fuck were you when I was being harassed and threatened? No, you just sat silently in your chair and looked the other way. Everyone says that they're a trans ally, yet when we're attacked, they all look the other way. Since I started transitioning, I dedicated myself to fight so future generations have access to the privileges I was given by the generations before me and more. These last couple years, no matter how hard I fight, these privileges have been taken away from these future generations. I feel like I'm failing these kids. Locally, I failed to save the one place these kids felt safe and just be themselves. Now they have nowhere to go. I'm failing the trans girls who want to play sports, and now they can't. I cry a lot for what's happening to them, but I keep reminding myself that these kids don't have a voice, they can't defend themselves, and yet they still find ways to fight. Like the kid who designed and printed these hats who's very afraid of what their reality could become this November, they refuse to give up and they continue to fight, not with silence, not with just throwing an endorsement at something, but with action. Doing and saying nothing is the coward's way out, and they deserve better. So if it takes getting beaten, stabbed, or shot to make sure these kids have someone there to fight for them, and for me to just be who I am, then I will go down fighting. And just like last year when I shared the death threat that I received, this year I had a wonderful man in McRedmond Park tell me that he hopes that my penis is cut off and stuffed down my throat and I can suffocate to death. Thank you.
Next is Oluju, then Wolf Adriatico, then David Morton.
Good evening. Good evening, council members. My name is Oluju. Look at me. I probably don't fit the typical stereotype of a firearm owner. I work in a clinic in Bellevue. My family lives here in Redmond. My kids attend school in Lake Washington School District, and we are active members of our church up on Education Hill. Like many of you, my schedule is packed and my time is valuable. Yet, for the past five years, me and my husband have been a proud member of the Interlake Sporting Association. To me, the ISA isn't that different from our church community. It's a place where people know each other, greet each other by name, and come together because we share a common interest. It's a supportive community, not just a facility. I've attended several Redmond City Council meetings in the past couple months, and respectfully, I don't believe the proposed restrictions are either practical or sustainable. For instance, on May 26, one of the City Council members mentioned that children needs to go to bed. That's why the range can't open. As a parent, I completely understand the desire for peace and quiet, but the ISA is a long-standing When choosing to live near an established facility, aren't people aware of the neighborhood that they're moving into? Furthermore, restricting operating hours will not reduce demand. It will simply compress that demand into a shorter window, creating a larger crowd and heavier traffic. In my opinion, the more effective way would be sound mitigation. It would be a more practical, lasting solution than slashing hours. For working parents like me, the ISA is a vital retreat. It's where I practice my skills, continue learning, and recharge mentally. I urge the city of Redmond to work with its taxpayers to find thoughtful, balanced solutions. Please, let's not compromise the reasonable decades-old community resource just to signal a quick fix. We can solve neighborhood problems together without eliminating the spaces that bring us together. Thank you.
Next is Wolf Adriatico, then David Morton.
Hello, hello. I don't have one written today again, so not as organized. First, I'd like to thank those who came to me after my last comment to show support, I suppose. I do genuinely appreciate it. And again, thank you. And I don't want to add a but to the end of that sentence because I do genuinely appreciate it with no caveat there. But I do want to remind that it is even with all this reassurance, it is very difficult to trust that things are moving along as it is said is moving along with no active engagement. And I understand there is no, I understand that's still on the way, but until then, I'd just like to continue to remind the council the promise regarding involving teens in the building of a new teen center. That's about all I have for that topic. Complete pivot, I would like to comment on their subject as a non-gun owner, obviously, and as a non-ISA member, nor someone who lives in the area. Just to say my piece on it, because I think it's important that... people don't assume that it's just them being in an echo chamber and then all the neighbors in an echo chamber. I think that it is On the neighbors that moved in next to a shooting range that has been there for a very long time, it should be on them to know that that was there and the organization shouldn't have to continuously back down from that. That's about all I have on that. Thank you.
Next is David Morton.
Act with Redmond 2050's tree canopy goals. I'd ask that staff treat these four items and the draft's other placeholders as priorities for the version 2 draft expected later this year.
I also heard that seniors are interested in opportunities to expand the senior lunch program and I also spoke with Issaquah Fish about ways to engage with the city.
Thank you. Are there any other ombuds items from other council members? Council Member Forsyth.
Thank you. I had some conversations with folks around noise ordinance, around ICE being present in Redmond twice in the last week. Invitation to the Women's Bazaar that I believe we all got an email about, and it also has a Children's Entrepreneurial Bazaar as well, which is super cute. And I've attended a different version of that in the past, so I highly encourage everyone to attend that. and a couple of conversations with community members around sidewalks and the need for some grinding and smoothing. So I will send some follow-up. Council Member Kritzer.
Thank you. At my office hours today, had some good conversations with visitors about trans rights and trans safety. Also talked about parking policy and ADA parking issues. We also talked about some issues around incentivizing light rail use and other types of modes of transit beyond cars, kind of in the context of also talking about parking. and also had some good conversations with folks around wanting to understand more about our land use policy decisions and some of the things that have been implemented in recent times. I also have been in conversation with some people around the 172nd gate project hearing some more feedback on some of the traffic calming measures that have been implemented and also feedback on city staff communications with the neighbors around there. um also had quite a few conversations with people about tenant protections um and uh both renters and uh landlords um so hearing some interesting feedback on that and um and then i also heard from community members who are concerned about ice being in Redmond and inviting us to join in some of the work that's being done to help to prepare community members for those types of incidents. And lastly, I'll just say that I rode the light rail yesterday and was delighted to find Cascade Bicycle Club outside tabling, teaching people how to kind of connect to light rail with their bikes, use our bike storage in that area. and see community members engaging with that. And so just want to give a thanks to them because I think they were really helping people to think about how we connect different types of transportation together.
Thank you.
I had an impromptu office hours on the light rail as we were riding across over to Seattle and hearing from community members about how positive of experience that they're having being able to enjoy all things not only World Cup related but also just connecting communities, which was the intent behind it. So it was wonderful hearing that. While on the train, I also got to hear about some issues that my colleagues have already spoken about, such as renter protection rights, as well as an increase in trans harm throughout our region. I also had conversations about Derby Days and the dates being changed and what to expect for that. And also, as my colleague Councilmember Forsyth mentioned, several conversations about the presence of ice being back in Redmond and throughout King County and concerns being raised there. That's the end of my report. Thank you. Councilmember Pacrea?
Thank you. I had many similar conversations to ones that were listed here today, but I also had the opportunity to represent Redmond along with Councilmember Soni, Council President Stewart, and Mayor Bernie at the AWC annual conference. So that was a great experience learning. I think my favorite sessions were There were a couple on AI. There was one on our debt, municipal debt limits. But it was very engaging to interact with folks from all across the state. And I want to give a special shout out to Councilmember Soni for being the flag bearer for the city of Redmond at the event.
Great. Thank you. Council President?
Yeah, well, thank you so much. It was wonderful to have all of you at the conference with us this year. I sent out a few notes about some of the workshops that I attended just to kind of spark curiosity, but for folks to generally know, we will have some time at council talk time to report out a little further on anything from the conference that's significant to you if you were able to attend. or any curiosities that were peaked as a result of the council members sharing who were able to attend. It was a great conference this year. And next year, the conference will be in Tacoma, nice and close to home. So hopefully, we'll be able to have a good showing again. A couple of other things, notes primarily on behalf of council leadership. The council has been waiting for a closeout agreement from Flock, our ALPR vendor, that has not yet arrived. So at council talk time next week, we will also have space to discuss that item a bit more and make a plan for possible action at a future business meeting. So please do come prepared for that item. Also, On behalf of the council, we did send a note to neighboring jurisdictions around the interim official control related to commercial drone delivery and particularly the land use issues. When we distributed that note to our neighbors, it was further distributed a bit and the Sound Cities Association's caucus of city administrators has actually taken an interest in the topic. So I'll be speaking with them just briefly tomorrow about what we experienced so far here in Redmond and some of the policy questions that we believe lie ahead. Just a brief touch there, but wanted to let you all know that I'll be doing that. Also, quick reminder that council has also received a lot of internal news, so be sure to take in your inbox. I know we were off last week. We have As a result of our request to Director Marchand, he has shared the data sharing policies with us. We have received a memo on development services, as well as some staffing updates from Mayor Birney, so be sure to take a look at the news, thanks.
Okay, Council Member Kritzer. Sorry, I forgot one item that I wanted to share. This last week, I happened to be at the Marymoor Community Center when RIPAC was meeting, and some of the youth leaders invited me to come in and say hello. And they had a ton of new people who were joining. There were a couple dozen teens that were all there. Many of them new there for the first time. So got to share with them and encourage them to come share their thoughts on budget with us and tell them a little bit about what we're up to. And a lot of them are really excited about the idea of coming to table with us at Derby Days. So hopefully I had passed that along to Council President Stewart. I know we're reaching out to our other committees to join us, but hoping we'll have some of our teens with us. Also obviously really excited for the opportunity to hopefully plug in as we move forward on the process on rebuilding the old Firehouse Teen Center.
Council member Percy Thank you. I also had an item that I forgot to share So this past weekend I knocked on 50-plus doors for the houses that are neighboring to the ISA and one of the comments that we heard today was about Why wouldn't the owner the house that residents know what they moved in and what they were? What they could expect One of the comments that I heard from the residents that surprised me in this area was that, and I'm kind of quoting from my notes,
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