Westminster Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

All right. I'm going to call the meeting to order at 6 p.m. We're going to have elections. And I'll turn it over to the staff.

I think what staff would recommend, because we both need the chair, Commission member nominates themselves or a commission member nominates another individual commissioner or chair first, then takes that into consideration and vote on that position, then we're going to do the same process with next chair.

So with that, it's back up to the claims and the commission.

Okay, Mr. DeVoe, I will go ahead and nominate Dr. Wack for chair of the planning commission. And then we need...

I'll second that motion. Thank you. We have a second, Mr. Boyd.

Yes, thank you.

So, Wendy, Wendy, do you want to take the call for vote? Okay. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

I'd like to open the floor for nominations for vice chair. And I'd like to nominate Wendy McNulty for vice chair. I will second. Any other nominations or discussion? Hearing none, all in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed?

All right. On to our agenda.

The only item under new business on the agenda is a public hearing for ordinance 2026-0API planned industrial zone uses and development regulations text amendment. For the record, the start of the public hearing is 6.02 p.m. The public hearing has been properly published in the Carroll County Times meeting all state and federal requirements. Staff, please proceed with your report.

Thank you. This is background. On July 28, 2025, the Mayor and Common Council approved Ordinance 2501, Automobile Use Text Amendment, primarily to add, delete, and modify automobile-related issues in several zoning districts, including the PI Zone. During the public hearings for this ordinance, the majority of the public comments and discussions were primarily related retail and commercial uses in the PI Zone. In response to the public comments on December 8, 2025, the Mayor and Common Council approved Ordinance 202509, providing a more streamlined process and increasing the acreage limitation for local retail businesses and service shop uses in the PI Zone. Ordinance 2026-08, the ordinance reported tonight represents what we call the third phase of the PI Zone Amendment. That collectively will expand the amount of uses through the development plan process and modernize development standards within the PI Zone. Generally, Ordinance 2026-08 is to increase the allowed height buildings and structures from 20 feet to 30 feet including a maximum length of four stories for hotels expand allowable parking standards for new and amended development plans to be added to be applied to subsequent site development plans add new and prohibit certain retail commercial uses allow daycare facilities schools health gyms and maintain a minimum 55% of the gross development plan area for industrial uses. On August 24th, 2026, and this is a correction from the staff report, I believe the staff report says the 14th, it was actually August 24th, 2026, the Mayor of Common Council introduced Ordinance 202608 that referred to the Commission for Court Review and Recommendations to the Mayor of Common Council. Following introduction, Corporate Center Leasing LLC One of the recommended prohibited uses in the proposed ordinance prohibits government agencies from leasing space within privately-owned buildings in the PI zone, or instead prohibits publicly-owned buildings and property within the PI zone. In response, does the administrator determine that the prohibition lending intent is that the prohibition of public building structures and properties applies to publicly-owned buildings and property within the PI zone and does not prohibit a government agency from leasing space within the privately owned building. So essentially, if there's an existing building site and a government agency want to lease space, they could. However, a government agency could then buy land and then build a publicly owned building at the property.

Is that a tax revenue thing?

I'm assuming that's one element of it. Currently, right now, the ordinance already allows for the leasing of public office space. So that's already in the ordinance. When we've added multiple other uses to this ordinance in this district, And again, the purpose of the PI zone primarily is industrial manufacturing uses. Right. So that's what I think more we were trying to establish and maintain. The second one was whether parking standards fed forth in 16470A. These are the new parking standards that we have created part of this ordinance. If they apply during the site development plan process pursuant Now, in response to this, the intent of the text amendment is for the parking standards to establish a new and amended development plan to govern the subsequent site development plan process. Essentially, what we're doing is we're allowing for a new method for that is the method that will then be used on any subsequent site development plan uh for the develop for this development plan process there's any questions about that so with that so with that staff has recommended the planning zoning commission recommend approval or the Mayor of Common Council on August 24th, 2026, and board its recommendation from the Mayor of Common Council for consideration of final action. I'm available for any additional questions.

Any additional questions for Mr. DeFoe? Hearing none, I'll entertain a motion regarding Ordinance 236-08.

I need that the Planning and Planning Commission recommend approval of Ordinance Number 440. You have to close the call.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I need to ask if anybody from the public, anybody from the public wish to speak regarding Ordinance Number 2026-OP.

I will very briefly say that we are here from Corporate Center Leasing on behalf of the Commerce Center in favor of the proposed benefit.

Thank you.

Thank you, Kelly. Yes. Elliot Schaefer-Miller, 73 East Main Street, Westminster, Maryland, 201157. On behalf of the Corporate Center, we say thank you.

Thank you. Anybody else wish to be heard on 2026-08? Hearing no further comments, we'll close the public hearing.

Thank you.

6.99 p.m. Now, motions.

I move that the Planning and Zoning Commission recommend approval of Ordinance No. 2026-08, as introduced by the Mayor of Common Council on August 14, 2026 for its recommendation from the Mayor of Common Council for consideration and final action.

Motion, Ms. McNulty, 22nd. Second. Second, Mr. Boyd. Any comments, further discussion regarding the ordinance? Hearing none, all in favor? Fair enough.

The motion has been amended to move the date.

August 24th, I apologize. We incorrectly placed that. Yeah. So let's see. So the motion has to be amended to say introduced on September, August 24th. August 14th. August 14th. August 24th. This is incorrect.

It's supposed to be a two and not one.

Yeah.

So amended. Amended for August 2014.

Thank you. Seconded first. Mr. Boyd seconds. Any discussion? Hearing none, all in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Excellent. Thanks.

All right. On to us. We have

One item of all business, the only item of all business on the agenda is a work section for local map amendment LMA 25-01, the question for the public hearing for LMA 25-01 on August 20, 2026, and no additional public comments were taken during the work session proceedings. Purpose of the work session is to allow the Commission to evaluate the request for the Local Map Amendment. No final recommendation from the Mayor or County Council on LMA 25-01 is requested in tonight's work session. Staff, please proceed with your report.

Thank you. And again, on August 20, 2026, the Commission held a public hearing for the Local Map Amendment. In addition to the applicant's attorneys, The public generally raised questions and concerns regarding one, the existing residential development at the property and potential displacement of existing residents. Two, the ability to meet all street parking requirements. Three, a possible increase in traffic, particularly at the Sullivan Road Route 140 intersection. Four, adjacent roadway design and on-street parking. Five, proposed building mass and bulk at the property. six building architecture seven the inclusion of virtual space and eight the proposed development being section eight housing uh tonight the purpose um again of the work session is to allow the commission to evaluate the concerns data and suggestions raised by the community and the advocate during proceeding public hearing and to ask staff and In the staff report, staff has provided a list of outstanding issues for the Commission to consider during these work sessions, which also address the public hearing comments by the citizens. These concerns include, again, the existing residents of the property, open space, preferences, development plan design layout, and architectural elevations. And I think, I believe tonight, staff has recommended that during the work sessions, the Planning and Zoning Commission review these elements and any other concerns or questions they may have as we move forward to a final and hopefully recommendation by the Planning and Zoning Commission.

Also, just a few things. Everyone on the dais right now has the staff report, the application, and the concept. There was one full plan of the traffic impact study. I just printed out one instead of printing out one out for everybody, but that's there as well. For the other attachments, I have this here. If there's anybody who wants to look at more, these were just general things that have been repeated each time we've talked about it. Different parts of the code, the design preference, and all those types of things. So just want to let you know we have them if you want to take a closer look at them. But the conversations, I think, are really specific to those three documents that you have included. Also, if you add the Traffic Impact Study. But the stuff's here if you want it. And you have a full copy, just so you know. Thank you.

And I'm sorry, but the Traffic Impact Study was also... two bedroom apartments. Staff had missed the fact that parking was being proposed underneath the building, under the first floor. So again, parking is fully addressed by the concept as provided for off-street parking.

Question on that. How many off-street parking spaces per unit? Two. Two? It's a long way to go.

So I'll keep record requirement for 2 bedroom multi-family phone unit 1.5 parking spaces. So the total number of all 3 parking spaces for the 122 bedroom units is 180 and for the 9000 wanted to

You know, I was not at the last meeting, but I did listen to the full public hearing. And I guess I, in my mind, before we get into the architecture and some of the design stuff, my big question is kind of regarding density, okay? I've heard a couple things. Sorry, I'm standing back. How many, maybe the applicant is welcome to participate as far as I have a question. How many units are there right now, Mr. Chair?

Mr. Hackett, do you have an answer to that question?

I think there's technically 40 units.

40? There's 40 units. And then those units, are they like two-bedroom, three-bedroom? What are they?

They're primarily units.

Okay, but you don't have a breakdown. I don't. Okay, that's something that personally I would like in a future work session, a better breakdown of what the existing density is there and what it's made up of, whether it's like 22-bed units or 23-bed units. I would just like a sense of that. Anyone who listens to me on a regular basis knows I am friendly to and density. I will say I have a little bit of concerns about the intensity of the density here, because we're talking about 120 two bedroom units.

And I don't know how my other commission members feel, but there's, you know, I have some concerns about density. I have concerns about that there's really no open space on the site as it's currently planned.

You know, I know Dutterer's Park is nearby, but there's not a great way to get to it right now, be it the sidewalks or otherwise. And I just have some concerns about how much, you know, density that we're adding to that parcel.

Just to be able to benchmark. how much density we're talking about. Do we have a measure in the city about units per acre? Is that something that you guys in planning look at in terms of different neighborhoods have different numbers of units per whatever area unit would be? And could we then benchmark this project against

I think it is due for and by recommendation by the plans that are in commission and eventually by the council approval. The CN zone does not specifically state density. It doesn't give a density. It allows the multifamily dwelling use. And I believe that it's through this process. It is through your recommendation to the Mayor of Common Council, which you believe is the appropriate density. The Mayor of Common Council can ultimately modify that or approve your recommendation.

If there are 40 dwelling units of the property, right now, 12.6 units per acre, dwelling units per acre for this property. There's 3.11 acres at 40 units.

47 units and that's 33.57 dwelling units per acre 33 33.57 and you you just said it was 18 something it's there's 47 units on 1.42 acres right and for this project this project is 12.86 as it exists as it exists today the property as it exists today um but that's good okay thanks exactly Yes. So, yeah, so existing 12.86 proposed 38.59. Oh. Sullivan Avenue, as I mentioned, that's at a density of 33.57. Weimar Avenue Apartments is a .54 acre parcel with 18 units, and that's 33 dwelling units per acre. So we are at 33.08, 33.57 are the

not within that range and it does exceed but it is in the 30 range for drawing into breaker but we have no we don't establish right so that's just our okay that's exactly what makes it right says good just to yes um the optimal density and mix of housing types for the neighborhood is provided and considering this criteria the commission and planning director shall consider the following factors when determining the appropriate limited density. So as just discussed, you all are going to decide what the appropriate density is. You can consider the specific location of the property in relation to the distribution of existing density and housing types in the area, the current and maximum potential capacity, the local roadway, water, sewer, and storm drain networks, and the unique character of the property in regard to topography, sightlines, access, valuable environmental features, and the underlying zoning district, and any other factor deemed relevant by the commission. Okay.

applicant, I notice it appears in the proposal you're proposing 122 bedroom apartments. And my thought would be, as a landlord myself that has apartments, the impact of a two-bedroom apartment is greater than the impact of a one-bedroom apartment, number one. What kind of impact?

Like when you say impact.

Impact, what I mean by that is if I have a one-bedroom apartment, Dr. Wax, I would argue that there's a 50-50 shot, and my percentages could be off a little bit, that I'm likely going to have a single person living there. At most, I'm going to have a couple. I have a one-bedroom. If we're thinking about traffic and other kinds of impacts, so if we have a two-bedroom, You're not going to find that many, one single person that's running a two bedroom, unless they are a need like work from home and want an office or something like that. The majority of those. likely are going to have three people and a child or somebody else. So when I look at the impact of the total density of this project, I'm not just thinking about the number of units. I'm thinking about the mix of the one bedroom versus two bedroom. And I would argue, too, from I'm a big believer in the diversity of housing stock. like some people in this county, I want apartments.

I want my children to be able to live in this community.

And the more apartments that are there, better. But also, I think having a variety, a mix of some one bedrooms and two bedrooms, number one is better, in my humble opinion. The project that we did, or that was approved on eSchools, that had a variety. Now those were, if I remember, they were going to be condos, correct? Yes. They were going to be condos, they were going to be sold, but they were one bedroom condos and two bedroom condos. So, and then, but that in turn has an impact on some of the concerns I heard in the public hearing were, you know, traffic related and all of that. And in their mind, they might just be thinking the total number of units, but my argument would be, it's not just the total number of units, it's the kind of units, because obviously three bedroom units would have even more of an impact. So when I think that we look at this, the number of density units, bedrooms um i'm just having so overall when i look at this i'm having a little bit of trouble guy it just feels like too many units and i would i would argue um mr depot that

that kind of some of the numbers you did kind of back that up from the standpoint, because Sullivan Avenue is 33.57 density units per acre. Wilmer Avenue Apartments is 33.08 density units per acre. And this as proposed is 38.59 density units per acre. And I don't know, it would be interesting to know

down at the sullivan avenue apartments and weimar avenue apartments is as far as over those one bedrooms two bedrooms you know that would be additional context that might be helpful to us as we're navigating through this um and the other thing that it speaks to me and again how everybody else feels but if i remember correctly i think you might maybe provide it um Yeah, like the one, the project that was on Green Street, or even the project that we did with the Willows, had on-site open space. And right now, with what's being shown here, you know, there is really... real on-site open space i mean there's some green space in front of the building but i don't really consider that open spaces that's kind of just kind of the gateway of the entrance to the community um and and i like the design of that that corner is wonderful because i think it kind of you know i i heard some comments i'm kind of jumping around but i've i've done a lot of thinking about this i've heard some comments from the public hearing about the compatibility of the neighborhood. But when I really look around, this is on the edge of whatever you would consider this neighborhood to be, if you understand what I mean. And there is apartment building to the one section. There's apartment building on the other side. There's a big Board of Ed building over here. And then there's commercial on the other side. I kind of look at this as like a gateway towards 140. Do you know what I mean? So I don't know that I... by the argument that this is necessarily unto itself, not compatible with the overall neighborhood, because it's kind of on the edge and where 140 is kind of, it's almost kind of creating a gateway, but the density feels too much.

And I would like to see something that actually has some, even if you do connect to Dutterer's Park, I'd like to see something that had some open space on the site that could be used by, you know, residents.

What if I have a doll, and I don't want to walk all the way to Dr. Roop's car?

But I tell you, it's not that far away, though. It's free.

Oh, no, I don't disagree with you. I'm a good boy. Well, yeah, I've been talking a lot. What does everybody else think?

So I guess I'm trying to just get a feel for the... Do you want to see the density of this the same or less than the surrounding density? So do you want to see it at 33-ish or do you want to see it less than that? What about the 38 other than your sense of it seems like too much? Do you have a goal?

No, not off the top of my head. It's very nebulous right now when I look at the scythe. now as it is. That's that and I don't really consider you know you're not just being that's in the front of the building. That's that's that's right here.

Looks like a lot of triangle and corners.

Yeah, it's not really usable open space for the building. It's more kind of a static feature as you're, you know, because that's the one, if you look at Google map, that's kind of that corner that leads out towards, you know, 140.

That's the entrance corner.

Yeah, to me, that's not like, no one's going to be playing Frisbee out there or, you know, or...

We've always had problems with spreading out things in this county, in this city. I will disagree with you, Mr. Floyd. Large acre plots, a lot of open space. I have nothing against open space. I really don't. But you've got a very large park less than three blocks away. You've got a school that has a whole lot of open space that I'm sure the neighborhoods tend to be using to play games, walk their dogs and everything else. And the college. And the college. I mean, the college has a lot of open space right in that area. When you're talking of density, to me, you want people all concentrated in one area of that. providing space where you can. And I just think there's plenty of open space within that area. I mean, how big is a park? How many acres? Is it about 10, 12 acres in here?

I don't think that Dutterer's Park is quite that big. It looks like it's, to me, this site is 3.1. Stormwater management looks like stormwater management is on Dutterer's

probably about five to six acres okay six acres i guess that's usable open space but then like i said you got a school right next door to it that really increases that open space community pond community pond which i will

trade-off is the density and open space then some change to that intersection with a very heavily controlled pedestrian function because right now it doesn't have that no not at all and so that might be something to put on the table is upgrading that intersection with well and right now there's no sidewalks too like it would be different if we had sidewalks

that was part of this project that would connect, you know, that I could go out of this building and walk one, it looks like, about three blocks to Dutterer's. On sidewalks.

Six and a half acres.

Okay, six and a half. At least that's what A guys said. Yeah. I couldn't believe that. You know, right now there is no good good sidewalks there. Not only there are sidewalks there, period.

Am I correct about that?

So I still would like to see a little bit of breathability to the site. For lack of a better way, it just seems very compact. I'd like to see more green space there, even if there's not like a place for someone to throw wrist bait or whatever. But if we're not going to have a lot of that, I would want to see that connection. What you were saying, Mr. Boyd, if we're going to be relying on the park, Dutterer's Park, there needs to be a way for people to And that's kind of what's the applicant in the city to kind of figure out what to do.

But I mean, there are ways of making open space available. And that's what people are going to use. I mean, the little bit of open space that you're going to be able to provide, even at, let's say, 35 units, great. That's going to reduce it by 10, 15 units. the amount of open space you're going to get out of that is not going to be significant enough to make a difference. It really isn't.

Are we considering that college students are probably going to rent there? It will be law college. That would reduce the amount of traffic because they're going to walk to college and they're also going to get played at the college. I'm just thinking that might reduce, you know, it's a little over, but that might reduce the amount of traffic.

I'm just thinking that that

If there were college students, it just seems to me like college students are going to go to college to do what they want. The ones that rent from me, they go to college.

And another thing, people who are going to rent these apartments, one or two bedroom apartments, are going to be young people, but not going to be an old folk like me who has trouble walking distances.

Well, I'm assuming this building has elevators. I'm not saying it has elevators.

I know it has elevators, but There's a market for people downsizing. Oh, I understand there is. I know recent things in the county have addressed senior living to a point, maybe not in this immediate area, but So, you know, the seniors were going to want to probably stay.

Well, that's not necessarily true, Mr. Boyd, because I will tell you, like, I have a 20-unit apartment building right on Main Street, and I'm just sitting here as you're talking to me. I have a good portion of seniors. Because not everybody can afford to go into, you know, correct, you know, and it's, you know, but so there is, if this building has elevators, And all that, I think you would have a variety of type of people living there.

You say you have a good number of families that are in your building. What? No. Is there any open space in your property?

No, there's not. But I'm right downtown. I understand that.

Where is the nearest park? How far is the nearest park or open space from your property? Belgrade Square. So it's a block.

blocks away okay yeah three blocks the same thing is what would be no i don't see any of my the people that live in my apartment building out there at hanging out with velcro square right so would it be fair to say at the risk of possibly putting words in your mouth that you see a trade-off between these two variables of density and access to open can take back and play with to try to maximize the pedestrian accessibility too, which I think would cover sidewalks and the entrances and whatnot. Because if we're going to raise concerns about density, we've got to give them numbers. We've got to give them a goal.

True. This is just the first work session. So we're all trying to gauge kind of where we're at. I'm just setting up a flare. I'm setting up a flare. I'm not saying that.

Not only that, I mean, let's say the other properties were saying about 33 units per acre, and this was at 38. Reduce it a little bit. Go to 35. Split it.

And also, I would like a better sense of what the breakdown of when we were talking about those number of units, we don't know what the breakdown. Were they two bedrooms and three bedrooms? I don't know. Or were they one bedroom, two bedroom? I kind of would like a gauge in our next work session. Hopefully staff can bring us more information like that of what that breakdown is. And yes, if there was more, if I knew there was going to be a sidewalk between this project and Dutterer's, that if I'm living here, I can get to Dutterer's Park, would I feel better about the more intensity here? Yes. And maybe to your point, Mr. Voigt, I didn't really think about it like you did. Maybe you're right. Maybe it doesn't need to be a specific area for open space on this particular piece if we have good access to the park. Now, with that said, I would still like a little bit of more. And this is just a concept plan, but a little bit more greenery. Yeah.

So. In fairness, yeah, that's probably too strong. To me, our guidance, as useful as possible, it should be as concrete as possible so that they have something to work with. Because there's a jillion different ways this could be reconfigured. And so if we give them very specific or as specific as possible,

But maybe that's for next meeting. Eventually.

Is it more density with the state, city, or more density of housing?

That's what I was bringing up. That's one of the objectives of the state.

Is the state, city, county looking for more density? No. The city.

The county. The state.

And the city.

Speaking as a member of city council, we have that. I know we have density. So, but it's just my vibe was feeling like it was too. And that's the whole point is for us to kind of talk it out and kind of get a sense of things so that we can get them good feedback. And it might be that between now and the next meeting, something occurs to them too that we haven't thought about. I'm just, we're just trying to give them a sense of things right now. What's in the heart of feelings.

Yes.

Let's try to be in dialogue with you. Yeah, absolutely. If we could just address a couple items. One, as far as we do meet or exceed the parking criteria, and I think we agree with that, but what we've done, there's options that we talked about, and I guess in some other meetings, is perhaps the retail part of this, which is on the first floor or the ground floor, That could be eliminated, and that could be parking that goes inside, and therefore we could take away some of the spaces that are outside. That could assist on that. And whether it's eliminated completely, you create a more open space. The other thing is, is as we're looking at this, we have Schaefer Avenue, Sullivan Avenue, and Weimar, that we're going to be looking at those roads and probably, let's say, channeling them correctly, lining them correctly, that we're probably going to put end up with some parallel parking. That parallel parking could be counted as more open space. You mean diagonals?

It would be parallel just like we're on Main Street. Which I believe is able to be counted. Sure. No?

We're not.

a letter of code, but certainly as part of the package, it's something else we could take into account.

Again, so we're just at the stage determining whether the developer plan and this zonal classification can drop down this property. We go through site plans, and the site plan has to meet the code. to override the code for off-track parking.

Forgetting that aspect of it, the on-site parking, the retail area could be different.

It's at least 20 spaces.

Let's hold that thought for a minute. Let's gauge. There was conversation about the commercial. I personally I like a small commercial element to it. It was facing on to Sullivan. I mean, no offense to some people that didn't like the idea. It's a commercial. That whole corner is commercial. I could totally see like some commercial element here that would be benefit to that building as well as the community, whether that's like a small deli or coffee shop or So, Mr. Hackett, no offense if you're telling me you want to get rid of and just turn down the parking. I'm like, you're making me want to yawn. You know what I mean? Like, it's not very, that's not kind of, I don't think that's kind of what we want as a city. We want some of this kind of stuff going on. Mixed use, yes, that word.

That word. So, to the extent that any commercial space is successful, it's going to make the other issues worse you know that it's you're you're adding to the traffic you're adding to the parking that's why intensity commercial okay but if you had to choose between commercial and more open space, what would you choose?

I don't choose that. I choose less space. That's what I choose. These things are knobs we can throw.

I do agree with you about having commercial space because that area in and of itself

as we've already grown up with the open space, at the moment it's not very walkable. To get to Sheetz across 140, or Roy Rogers, is a pain in the butt. Even to get to the nearest shopping center, which is on the other side of the church, for all these people walking out on major roads.

Well, imagine if you had like a little deli that had a little convenience store in it. Do you think, if you were just saying earlier about the college kids and all that, and there's all these college kids that live on Hirsch and all of that, do you think they wouldn't walk to there?

Sure. They wouldn't walk to it. It would be easier to walk, didn't it?

They would say they didn't like it, but they would walk to it. They would walk to it.

They'd go get their welfare. Correct.

So I like the idea of a commercial. I don't have a problem with something. And it sounds like the rest of you are in agreement. But just keep in mind, we can't pick. I would argue that, correct me if I'm wrong, staff, we can limit what type of commercial is. We can limit.

That doesn't mean that that's where I'll go in.

Well, it's going to be driven by.

We can say it could be this, this, this, or this. Yes, I mean, you can do that. Yes, sir.

But by recommendation by the Planning and Zoning Commission and approval by the Maricoma Council as part of that ordinance that allows for these animal classification, I believe you certainly could limit or define what those limited neighborhood serving commercial uses would be. Or at least prohibit what would be done with that there. But I do believe we have that ability because the ruling was made by the zone administrator ultimately that that is an accessory function of the principal residential use. And any commercial should be accessory and serving the residential use in the residential community. It's not intended to be a regional type of commercial use. It is, as mentioned by Councilman Huff, that it's supposed to be serving the residents.

So just to kind of summarize where we are so far, we've identified density as a concern, something that we're going to scrutinize, proximity to open space or availability of open space, walkability, and then making sure that the ultimate I think would be very helpful, certainly for me, to think clearly about this, but I think also for the applicant, is that we could give some sense of the prioritization of those things, because that will drive how they reimagine this. What's the most important thing here? You can't say everything.

No, I know. This is the first work session, I think.

I understand, but I... You must have some sense of what's the thing that's making you toss and turn at night.

Well, what I'm saying is, you know, we're all kind of sharing different feelings or ideas. And that's kind of what this is all. And then when we come back, we get because I don't I can't tell you if you're asking me what's the density of it.

I'm not asking that. I'm asking you what's more important. Density, open space, walkability, parking. So they've got a month between now and our next work session to work on this, to come up with some new ideas. And if we just say we want everything. Then they're sort of at sea. What are they going to do? Then it's just like, let's guess what they're going to do. I'm trying to make this a more development-friendly project.

I can't tell you what would be important. Me is making that area more walkable to get the stuff. The density doesn't matter whether it's 25-year breaker or 38-year. Making things walkable in that community to get to places, to the urban space that's there.

That makes you feel better about the density. That's about it. So there you go.

This is what I'm trying to do. This is why you have to go.

This is why you have to go.

So, I stand corrected. I did make a mistake. Mark, you made a mistake. So again, just as with a commercial, by applying the zone under section, what is it? D2, and I'll read this to you. The number of parking spaces required and the locations, dimensions, and setbacks of parking areas shall be determined by the commission and the planning director. In all cases, there shall be a minimum of one parking space for dwelling units. Commission or the planning director may require parking to be satisfied, and this goes to Mr. Hackett was correct, may require parking to be satisfied through any combination of on-site parking, on-street parking, or off-site parking guaranteed through long-term lease agreements or easements. But in no case shall the number of parking spaces required exceed the requirements specified in 164.11. So I think it's saying if you can't exceed, you're limited to what the requirements are. But with improvements along the right of way,

220 that you're providing now? Is that what you did? 225, yeah. 215 are required. How many are required?

Currently 215 under the calculation.

225, actually providing right now. 225. So you could eliminate 10 of those parking spaces. Grass off. And there is... There's a great set. There's open space. And every parallel parking space that we create... It's 25 by 9.

So can I ask a couple of questions about like, so where did, and hopefully somebody here knows this answer, where did 120 units come from?

It's been a while. I feel like it was, let's see how many we can get. um composition wise i know that uh bernie the developer he instructed me to do two bedrooms only so i don't know if that's i mean he owns multiple properties i don't know if that was based on what he's doing there or or what but that that was a strict and he's not here tonight but he will be here at the next so miss shaver if you could if you

could speak to i want a better understanding as a member of the planning zoning commission where the 120 units came from why why is he proposing all two bedrooms because in my mind mr hackett do you know that reason well only because we had to have a starting point and trying to find how we get the mix of meeting partner requirements and have the building with about 120 units

So if he's willing to do some one-bedroom units, we would, and I want to speak for him right now just a little bit. I think he would prefer, but he can confirm, he'd rather have a one-bedroom unit at a loss of density because it's a large building and a large investment. The difference between the 40 units are out there in the 1930s or whatever. Well, in these type of facilities, the storm event is going underground, basically. It's going to go into parking lots or open space. So we tried to find that happy medium. And I know Hannah's looked at costs on what this building is going to be.

And you've got to be able to obviously rent units out.

And one bedroom unit is better than just wiping out a two-bedroom unit and just cutting the size of the building down, because proportionately,

One bed would go to a two-bedroom. I well know it's not.

Not that much difference in rent, but yet, would it make the size of the building a little smaller because there's more? That's Hannah's expertise.

So, yeah, the applicant could be here next time because we understand, like, when we were working through the Green Street project, we ended up, because we wanted a nice facility, what we were looking for overall. So again, don't misunderstand. I'm not saying blanketly, you know, you need to slash 30 units off the top or otherwise there's, you know, I don't think anyone's saying that. It's a concern that I have about the number of units, but I could be persuaded. I could be persuaded based upon how it's interconnected to the farm. you know 62 bedroom and 61 bedroom all those kind of things but understanding better from the applicant what the thinking was or or the why would be would be helpful to for us trying to get to uh um you know a good place and also like you know what was the thought about the open space and the like if you're technically required to provide 215 and providing 225 and you say you could provide 215 give me a little bit more breathability a little bit more greenery a little bit more i'm probably okay with that you know because the reality is what what is the parking requirement for the two bedrooms

mentioned, though, the Planning Commission has the right to approve something down to the one unit or one space per unit. So there's some flexibility between the 145 and the one is what I believe. So as you have a one-bedroom unit, you know, we have 1.5. But still, one-bedroom units can have couples in them.

Well, that's what I'm saying. I'll be honest with you. I think the 1.5 unit, the one point is about makes sense to me. I, since I'm speaking again from personal experience, I have a 20 unit building. That's all one bedroom. I have 30 parking spaces. And I don't, I don't.

Well, I have most people.

Well, I, everybody, if you're a one bedroom, Dr. Wack, I give you a tag. there are couples that you're guaranteed one tag. If you ask for another tag, depending if I have it, I'll give it to you. Okay. But generally that number, that 1.5 about works out because believe it or not, if the building is walkable, I probably have two or three tenants in that building that do not drive. But they're all means so they can walk and get groceries delivered. And that's reality. That's the modern world we live in. Not everybody drives. And then do I have people that have two cars? Sure.

I have quite a few that don't have cars. They like being in West Virginia. They love to go to college. But I have quite a few.

To me, walkability is a big thing nowadays, especially in this. Like I say, that's something that definitely needs to be addressed as far as I'm concerned.

What's the, I have a question on the walkability component. Like, what does that look like to you?

To me? Yes. Safe access to facilities. What? The wide pedestrian front.

Right now the plan would be to do sidewalks along our tire. Sometimes it comes down to control of other air kids.

I understand.

But I just wanted to understand. Looking at burials, development agreements. Talk about it.

right yeah you could as a part of this improvements and other parts of the city as part of the development agreement we don't have we've never um instituted developer rights responsibility agreements this is the first time for everything that's what you said

He's talking about, I think, I think Dr. Rack's talking about PWAs.

Public works agreements. Oh, thank you.

I think it would maybe depend on what the public right-of-way is in each area, because sometimes you're absolutely not in public.

So for that purpose, yeah, any work through a right-of-way would be within the public works agreement.

Yeah.

But like I say, I mean, looking at the area, I mean, I don't know if Harry Proctor That's an old part of town. It's an old part of town. And possibly, but there's some sidewalks already existing between the park and this area. They just need to be connected. If it's possible.

How would the laws apply to connecting sidewalks?

If it's property, then we'd be able to do it.

Yeah, but if you own the city. The city and Girardi way, yeah.

The city and Girardi way.

know what's the situation because if the city owns the right-of-way the city could you know but i think as dr rock's point is out is that we own the right-of-way but what's in the right-of-way in some cases the roadway itself is the only thing in the right-of-way and the sidewalk is outside the right-of-way typically you don't want that typically the sidewalk is in that right-of-way whip but you can find that out yeah so in these order it's a patch right yeah that's right

When they redid Main Street, they actually moved my sidewalk down about four feet. And my property line actually goes as far as, if you go to a college sign, you can tell them some of their signs on my property line. We're going to cheer on you.

But between the city and engineer, you can look at what, like, right away, tomorrow, down there, where you can, because if you can get them to Douglas Park and Sevilla Avenue, and I think there's, there are sidewalks along the

Sullivan Avenue sidewalk. I believe it was all the way up. Yes. The sidewalk ends right after the apartment building in Sullivan. So from that apartment building entrance closest to Pennsylvania Avenue, there's no sidewalk.

But that corner lot there, isn't that city-owned? Wasn't that a city park?

I do not know if that's city-owned, but I would believe that the sidewalks that exist in there are in the right way. That would be a newer roadway. I don't know.

Is your sidewalk in front of that other apartment building somewhere? I don't think there's a sidewalk here, is there?

I believe it's just in front of the end school. There's a sidewalk. Okay. Okay.

Now that we've surfaced the concerns about density and walkability, have we exhausted that for the moment?

So just to go back to the sidewalk, so I'm looking here. The sidewalk does go to Pennsylvania Avenue down to, and I see where it ends on, sorry, I'm looking here. That's all? Yeah. Yeah, that's Sullivan. Yeah. So the sidewalk along Pennsylvania, it's Sullivan. It's the road. But there's no sidewalk on Sullivan. There's no sidewalk on Sullivan. But if there was a sidewalk on Sullivan, then that would connect you to Pennsylvania Avenue.

Yeah.

And then that sidewalk goes all the way down. Yeah, Pennsylvania Avenue.

Look at that.

It gets you to the college at every day.

Yeah.

So...

Actually, to me, it's pretty tense.

And there's also a sidewalk that goes along. I'm sorry. There's a sidewalk that goes down one of these labels. Is that Hirsch? Yeah, there's sidewalks all. So there's sidewalks around there. Like if the city and the applicant could kind of look on. If you can connect the sidewalk and then that gets you. If the ability of I'm living in this building. And then have them actually get to the park. And I could even get downtown.

Get to the college.

There you go. That would be awesome. You know.

So, that walkability, which you were talking about. I was going to say, with the big emphasis nowadays on density and public water and sewers and stuff. I think we need to make every effort to make things. I'm not saying that 38 is what it So we can get that density.

Mr. Boyd, I'm thinking, and I know many of us live downtown. One of the things that my wife and I love about living downtown is we walk everywhere. When we go out, we will specifically on a Friday and Saturday night, we'll be like, we walk downtown to go to dinner just because we'd rather walk to go to dinner than drive somewhere to go to dinner.

We walk everywhere.

Yep. I was going to say, with densities, that walkability is a big thing.

So there's a way to interconnect this with sidewalks. Because I don't want people walking in the middle of the street. That's not an idea. I mean, it's not people doing that anyway, but I don't want them.

It's always a clean up loose ends, like, over the years. Now that they've built the old houses, now they would put sidewalks down these streets, and they didn't back.

Mr. Deacon, what were some of the other, I mean, we've hit on a lot of different things in your report that we've kind of not fully fumbled upon our random office.

We did talk about existing residents and displacement of the residents that was brought up. We talked about open space, the sidewalk pedestrian connection, roadway design, you know, when we get on. We talked about other than providing parallel parking spaces on the adjoining adjacent roadways building mass scene architectural compatibility you mentioned that's something we could work on that later yeah landscaping screen i think it goes in hand with that traffic impact discussion i think that goes with the density and the number of bedrooms one two number of people living in the space um i think we i think we've hit the elements that

I think there are two things that maybe we could just touch upon that were resolving that we haven't really talked about that you just talked about, which is displacement and traffic a little bit. It's going to be traffic a lot.

It's not going to be tonight. There's nobody from Leonard that's here, right?

No, nobody from Leonard came tonight. We anticipated that we will have more conversations on that so we can bring them to future sessions.

Is there any point, so is there anybody that could speak to assumptions and methodology in this? I don't want your question.

That's my knowledge.

So I will, there's no point in taking any of it. And I'll write up some stuff.

Maybe I can get it to you.

If you could send that to me.

So, Dr. Wack, you obviously have some concerns regarding traffic.

Yes. So, like your concerns about density, with density comes people, with people come cars. I don't And again, we don't need to go into it tonight, but I don't think this study captures the impact of this project on that neighborhood accurately. And I have a variety of reasons for thinking that, which I will share with Mr. T. I'll share with the applicant. But yeah, so if those can't be addressed or if a revised study shows that

density and interrelates interrelates to the traffic and you know the one thing I don't remember there being much discussion the one thing that occurred to me related to traffic is that I know across the street sorry I lost my place where when the sheets was being done there was a lot of conversation regarding stacking There was nothing in this report regarding staffing.

And to me, I can imagine a lot of people from here are going to go out on Weimert or Sullivan to go out on 140.

And any traffic study that's about this building should be looking at, just like Sheets across the way had to really look at stacking. And you remember they added a lane there and all of that. And they weren't making the situation perfect. I remember having all these conversations about the Sheets back in the day. But they weren't making the issue worse. And a matter of fact, some of the things that they were doing the situation better and unless i missed something and i i just we we just recently got the traffic study in full to look at there's nothing there's nothing about stocking it there and so so keep what i was gonna i'm already trying that if i'm getting any of this wrong so keep in mind too from a perspective that we're at development plan phase so not to say traffic is important now

But this study that you're looking at has not been fully scoped with the county and SHA. Like the traffic study that you're talking about for sheets is a traffic study that we will have to prepare and present as part of a site plan in terms of like all of this. It's not to say some of that can't be included in here now, but I just want to clear that the purpose of this was to get a general sense of traffic understanding that even if tonight you guys said, hey, we're okay with 200 units, we're never getting approval for 200 units.

If you can't meet, get an approved traffic. So this is more of a baseline.

Yeah, this is a baseline and we can certainly expand upon some of the scope.

So let me say this. I wanted to expand upon because this is a unique situation. Because the underlying density

of the underlying zoning density is nothing compared to what the overlay creates.

So by asking, and we're the recommending, Planning and Zoning is recommending, it's the Maine Autonomic Council, but as being the ex officio here, it's gonna be really, this is a unique situation because of the fact of the overlay coming on. So I know that, yes, typically you are right on the typical site plan. But what I'm saying is I think on this level, we're going to want some more details here, because when we come down with what we're doing, density's involved.

And so it could be at the end of the day, and I'm not saying this is the case, it could be when we really get into this, it's like, OK, at 80 units, everything works OK. At 100, it doesn't.

you said, which is when you were discussing Sheets brand, you know, that's the general accepted law, which is you have to mitigate your impact, your development. So that's by all means what we would anticipate doing. And so, yes, I think it would be helpful to get any notes that you have on that, because we've certainly talked to Lenhardt about expanding that, getting some additional information added in there. I just wanted to be very clear that we by no means... This is just the beginning. Yeah, this is just the beginning of the traffic analysis conversation, because ultimately, if the recycling process, you looked at it and said, you need to add a lane, then... plan has to have a link to be able to work i mean we don't we're not getting around any of the site planning process by doing just a related study here i guess what i'm saying this study shows that when you apply the 120 units to the intersections that we're studying that they'll work and function at an acceptable level service okay

That conclusion, I need more information, that's all.

But the functionality of the intersections is what you're not seeing because it's not that detailed yet. Yeah. Those intersections can be in, whether it's signal modification, lane modification, and all that. There's remedies to that, but put the traffic where it goes based on backgrounds, traffic, The left-hand turn movement going from Sullivan Avenue on the 140 in the A&P is probably not that much. And the A&P is going to be important because that's when people are leaving to go to work. 90% of the traffic is going right to go down 140. They're not going to Donahue, that kind of thing, or Gettysburg. So anyway, it's just one of those.

So that was one of the, and Matt said I would do this, but there's some, in the baseline numbers. Like, for example, in both a.m. and p.m., there are more people going out Sullivan Road and turning right on 140. And it seems to be counterintuitive. You'd think that in one time it would be more one way than the other. That same thing on Pennsylvania. There was some other odd thing where

get in the weeds. I'm happy for you to do that.

I love it. And I'm wondering exactly how they got these numbers. Did they put counters out there? Did they have a guy with a check thing? How did they do this? And so all for Lick. We don't need to get in the weeds.

No, but it would be fun. If you have any specific questions for you, you can get those. Are these

projections? Are they extrapolations? Is it somebody going off and actually count if it did, what days, what days of the week, what time, you know, between this and this, and then they came back and did this and this, were they there all day? It matters because, you know, what happens on a Monday may not be the same.

The guidelines which validate counts, right? You can't do counts on holiday when nobody's going to work. You can't do counts when school's out. You can't do counts. So, yes, absolutely.

So we can start defending it all. And I think it's important for this commission and then ultimately council to have a lot of confidence in whatever that traffic study says. Anecdotally, the sheets is... And I was happy to hear after that's been developed, anecdotally, as someone who lives along there, has indicated to me that actually the situation. And that's that antidote. But still, from our standpoint, it is an active concern for people in that neighborhood regarding traffic. Now, these guys are not traffic engineers. But I understand what their concerns are. And so it's really important.

commission and eventually when it goes to the council to feel confidence in whatever we've been working with line art too because we understand that even though this isn't a site plan this is a development and overlay zone your part of your purview is to be looking at traffic so that's why arnie contracted with line art to be able to prepare this and you know councilman hoff shared his you know his

or whatever. So mine is, it's a huge project and it's going into a neighborhood that doesn't have anything quite at this scope. But there's nothing on the face that I would object to except for how it will change the flow of traffic. And it's not just like, oh, I'm sitting at the intersection five minutes long. It's people could die. And that's ultimately...

With this discussion of traffic, I think this would be helpful for Glenn Hart. I'm not sure if IT gets into this, but I think Lindy made a great point. This is an abbey place where it's situated in the middle of a huge residential development where everybody's driving out. You're in a downtown area where you have a multifamily where kids are walking. You're not So it's something to think, too, as you're looking at these numbers, what do they actually use? Was it your general multifamily, like Abby's Place, trip generation versus a downtown type multifamily entity? It's off of Mulligan Drive.

It's the newest.

It was the newest multifamily development we've had in the city. Well, look at that, Mike.

No, WGTR. Yeah, WGTR. The towers.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, right. Totally different. Yeah. So, and I think that's an important element, too, when you're looking at traffic studies, also location. And I think we have educated people in the Plains Area Commission that experience renters in downtown and know that not everybody's driving that vehicle.

Yep.

So one other thing that I think we could talk a little bit about is displacement.

Yeah, I'll just be somewhat blunt about my person.

I don't necessarily, it's a topic I would like the owner to address in some manner. But at the same token, I will say, I don't know that it's the government's respect. When things are redeveloped, like, I'm sensitive to it, but also at the same token, it's not like everybody that lives there, you know, you have natural turnover anyway. Like anecdotally, I will say this, Dr. Webb, I'm redeveloping the property right next door to me for my parents. I had four tenants there. Okay. I had to deliver because unfortunately there was the renovations are so substantial. Thank you, mom and dad. that I had to vacate the whole building in order to undertake the renovations. I had to deliver notice to all of my tenants. I tried to give them as much time and warning ahead of time so they were not blindsided. And the one person was already planning to move out of the area to Frederick. And the other three people, because I was plotting ahead, I was able to actually So was that my obligation as a property owner? No. Did it make me feel better as a property owner? I would say it's your obligation as a human being. Yes. You don't stop being human. What I'm saying is it's not technically my obligation. It's not.

You're right. There's nothing written that says it's your obligation. All of these things are choices. And anything that's not written doesn't mean that it couldn't be your obligation. And then that then pumps it up to another level of what's the right thing to do? What's the best way to treat people? What's the way we want people in our community? to be living because if we don't address this, there is a non-zero chance that some of these people may become homeless people on our street, which everybody loves to complain about. And so if we had some role in creating more homeless people in Westminster, that's our responsibility. That would be the result of our decisions. So all of these decisions, nothing written in stone, nothing that says we can't save Pay attention to this. You can see there's a little bit of a gradation of where we stand, but what my point is, I wouldn't make them do anything, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with cultivating a moral question here of what's the right thing to do. There's nothing wrong with that.

I can assure you that Ernie only wants to do the right thing. And I think that here we're faced with Like you said, when you're in the situation of fully demolishing or renovating a space, there's a factuality that comes with that. And in this case, it is that those residents are going to have to move because originally, and I don't know if all of you recall this, but originally Ernie had explored the potential of just doing building by building and just replacing those existing buildings. And that would have allowed a little bit more flexibility there, but it would not have resulted in as aesthetically pleasing of a redevelopment. in my opinion. And so in order for him to redevelop the site, it does require to take all of those existing structures down. He is aware of that. He is experienced in this industry, so I'm sure he could speak more detailed in how he would handle that. And I know you've said this, I know you know this, but for anybody listening, I just want to be very clear. We are several years away from any site plan being approved. So one of the things that Arnie is sensitive to is also not making people think that they need to relocate next month. I mean, we are being very honest with ourselves in terms of the timeline of this project. We haven't even submitted a site plan. A site plan usually takes a few years to get their approval process, so I, you know, just keep side of mind, and I want to keep repeating that because I don't want anybody to hear this in piecemeal and think, oh my gosh, next month.

You know, one side of the reality is it could be several years before that, and if this project appears,

some natural attrition or when I have opportunities to relocate, by the time I get to three months

I've been plotting myself ahead to, you know, because people do move. I mean, yeah.

That is certainly, I think, what earns me. Most, I believe, and again, you can be more specific, but most of those tenants are month-by-month rents. So there's, I think, what you just explained, 50-50, it might even be way less than that at that point in time, because it will be closer. I think it will be closer to happening. I'm very mindful of that.

And Dr. White, about it about the is that the role of us to do but but yeah but what i will say you know yes part of the reason i chose to do what i did is because i had really good existing tenants and i wanted to sleep better at night sure so instead of yeah so

I'm not saying that I think we, the government, have to do something. All I'm saying is, number one, I will push back on an assertion that this isn't our business. our choice. They're all choices. We choose what's our business. And so, and the second thing is that all of these decisions have a moral component and we can't just wave it away. It's still there. And so, it should be discussed whether we think it's our business or not. Absolutely. No doubt. No doubt. So, anyway.

Any other topics you'd like to discuss?

Yeah, there you go. You're ready. Let's go. Do we? So we're going to digest the traffic report since we haven't had it for very long. We're going to generate some detailed questions that will funnel to Mr. Depot, who will get them soon. Yeah, I'll get it. The applicant is going to digest our feedback from tonight about density, walkability, parking, the commercial space, and factor that into open space and factor that into some reimagination of the conceptual plan. And we will have another work session. We have to have a motion to have another work session. Before you do that, there was one more comment.

If appropriate, I was wondering if we could get a general feel on where you are with the architecture. That is something that's flexible. I don't want us to do a willow situation where it was just a lot of, we could kind of do it kind of like you're doing it kind of out like you're doing it.

Perfect.

I don't agree with that one. I don't like it. Although it's a cross truck, it's near a car wash. To me, it has...

I kind of like it.

It's... It is somewhat of a modern look.

It's not monolithic-type modern look. No, it's not. It's not a little Soviet.

No, when someone made that comment, I'm like, no, it's not. Someone made a comment about it being like Eastern Europe. I'm like, it's not Eastern Europe.

That's the middle German. This is what's everywhere down in my family. Yeah, no, this is very... This is the same architecture, but... This is what everybody knows.

I don't. I disagree with you, Lindy. I don't think it's up to you. So there's still traditional habits to there are.

It's fine. I would not that again.

I do think it's in a much better place. No offense to the willows. We had a heart. It's a much better starting point. Let's put it that way.

Well, we use green street. I didn't see that. You want to replicate 1?

I mean, I don't know how much flexibility you have on this, but. I'm a big fan of balconies and out-of-the-work space apartments. The more, the merrier. I don't know if it does anything. It must do something visually to the outside of the building. But in terms of livability, more people can see.

Yeah, there are. There are. There are.

There are. There are. There are. There are. There are.

All right. I don't want to get, my personal, we don't want to get too far now.

We're not continuing to show this. Absolutely. Not at all. So we appreciate that.

To staff, I would like that additional context to break down these. I think that's a nice thing to get that.

I work with the applicant, right? I believe that. Ours? Yes. The property owner owns I will say it is 40 units, I think, except for the perfect two, but I agree. Correct, it's 40. And the breakdown of those units, but also the breakdown of the units. Yeah, so we'll work with the applicant to get those.

All right. That seems like a very good amount of discussion for our work session.

Yes, Mr. Heason? One more comment, and I'll be brief, but back to housing, there Market-rate apartment building. And obviously, like any other market-rate, you can get vouchers and live there, but this is not a Section 8 or lower income or item. It just irritates me as a planner when you hear those comments. So I just want to make that clear.

I have heard that too about this building.

as a landlord to refuse somebody with a voucher. Exactly. Just because they have a voucher. That is state law. So this idea of like a Section 8 building is like, you know, sometimes you can have a subsidized building, which is different. That's not with being closed.

You're going to have a market rate. Yeah, and the Abbey Place, which is a very upscale, nice apartment building, has several voucher people living in that building. So again, it's not affordable. It's marketable.

my eyeballs for a minute because when i hear people that come and testify and act like they don't want people like to be here because they might live in apartments and and stuff like that i hear that i used to be on carroll county planning and zoning i would hear the same kind of thing and It aggravates me to no end. I have two young men that are going to be in apartments. Now, luckily, they know somebody that has apartments. I want them to actually have a place where they can afford to live. And when also people talk about rents being too high, well, guess what? If you don't have enough inventory, rents are even higher. So I will say, I'll just get on my high horse about that because I get very aggravated when I watch some of the public comments that are very anti certain type of policy. And I want our young people to be able to live here because if they move out of the area, guess what? They're not coming back.

I totally agree with you. I heard the same stuff you heard at the mission. And it's like you say, We need to work just that.

And sometimes there are people that can afford to live in a single family house, as we were talking earlier. They don't want it. They want to live in our apartment.

All right. So now do I have to get a motion to have another work session? Is that what the motion thing is? I would like to entertain a motion.

I think a motion we have another session. Do we have to set a date for that?

Yes. So next motion, Mr. Boyd, do I have a second?

A second. The motion has to be to. Forward this to a future work session that you have to give a date. Presumably it's going to be your emotions.

Yep. What does the applicant and staff feel like you want the next week?

We'll make it the next meeting because that's what I want. I'm 15. Okay. Yep. Well, you can actually come get done. You want to move, right? If I may, if the motion is to extend the work session to the October 15th meeting, if there's some reason we can't hold it, we can certainly make another motion to further extend that. Oh, exactly.

Mr. Boyd has agreed to amend his motion as suggested by Mr. DePoe. Ms. McFelty, second? Yep. Perfect. Motion and a second. Any further discussion? All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Outstanding. Carol Counting. Report. Yeah, sorry. Okay.

So a couple of tips and tricks that I have from the county. As you know, there was a series of deferrals for developments within the Freedom area. This doesn't really pertain to you guys, but I figured I'd keep you updated on it. Those are the one for retirement villages, retirement homes, expires October 1st. Cluster subdivisions expires October 1st. Self-storage expires October 9th. And on September 8th, a motion to go to hold a public hearing to extend the deferral did not pass.

And the deferrals are, you're deferring consideration of these projects, or are they, projects will now move forward once the deferral expires?

They, they're deferring, yeah, it's deferring the consideration of projects. I think they want to hold. They're not going to be on hold? Yes.

So they have to be considered on their merits.

Unless the deferrals are extended further. But yeah, the one for self-storage, the public hearing to extend the deferral didn't pass. So that one will definitely be expiring October 9th. And I don't believe that retirement villages or cluster subdivisions have a public hearing to extend the deferral. So I believe that those ones will also expire in October. And then data processing centers acceptance and processing of expires February 17th, 2027. So as far as I know, no one from the county has been approached for any data processing center projects or plans or anything. There's nothing to be heard about in the county? No. As far as I know, yeah. Chris Hein said so this past week during planning commission that we haven't been approached. There's a series of text amendments that went to public hearing actually today from the Board of County Commissioners. And I'm going to need to double check on the status of all of those. You'll have to forgive me, I was not watching. board of county commissioners today. So I'll get back to you on those. Sorry about that. But those are text amendments for topics including accessory dwelling units, retirement villages, and retirement homes, and cluster subdivisions. So they're all relating to the deferrals. We had a series of deferrals basically because they wanted to make these amendments and changes to what is allowed, what is required. And now I think that those are expiring. It's a bit of a scramble to get those text amendments finished. I'm just not sure exactly how that hearing went today, but I'll get back to you and let you know how that went, those public hearings. So the first assessment phase of the master plan has been completed. The Planning Commission began review of work group reports in February. Review has been put on hold due to effort required to address deferral tax dependents. The target completion date is fall 2027 for the master plan. The fall 2026 water and sewer amendment application cycle closed on September 4th. We received applications from the city of Westminster, town of Hampstead, and town of New Windsor. And then we'll begin reviewing and processing applications during the week of Tuesday, September 15th, 2019. So this week they've been reviewing and processing the water and sewer application. of the amendment cycle. So we got yours. I think we're, I'm sure Ethan has a question. And there's, sorry. I think that that's everything actually. Yeah. The last update that I had, I just, I don't think that state. Oh, yeah. My name is Carla. Thank you. Yeah. I think if you guys have any questions about anything going on at the county.

Okay, sorry.

So nobody's retired.

Right. Thank you.

that we did receive a few emails. Do I want to mention that? We received a few emails, feedback from the last meeting, and the commission members will digest them.

Yeah, so we provide them to you. I don't believe that they provide any additional comments of what you've heard through the public hearing, but we want to make sure that you buy them.

No, and you'll continue to provide them to us so that people submit great comments.

I know we have several new members here, including yourself.

I really do appreciate all the conversation we have tonight on the work session because it's really important that we all really appreciate all the work like whether it was the green street project or the willows all the work that we put on this level because by the time it comes to them you know and obviously i share with them that we put a lot of time and effort in You know, give and take. And it's good that we don't all, that we're really good about disagreeing with each other in a friendly manner. And that's so important to the process because we're not all on the same page about everything.

Can I just ask what stacking means? Stacking and the traffic stuff? Yeah.

Stacking up at the intersection. Oh, gotcha. Okay. Sorry. So if you're, you know, four floors packed up is different from 10 cars packed up because then it spills into the next intersection and then you get people. So stacking on each other. So stacking on each other.

That's the terminology. Yeah. All right. Yeah. There's two elements here. Stacking on site for

that accommodates so it's not spilling out into the public way. Then you have the wait time or stacking and the light that can certainly be addressed through signalization changes that you would extend the left turn lane signal another 30 seconds that would allow that traffic to pass through that intersection a little bit easier. So you don't have it backing up to blocking intersections, horn sites.

So there's two different types of- You are reminding me of something that I do want to mention. This is important, Dr. West. There is a planning commission conference happening in October at Chirp Valley in Howard County. Okay. I forget the dates, but it's like October 20th around that area. Staff will send out emails to us and, you know, obviously the city is not providing hotel rooms because it's in Howard County. But I would really encourage any of you, especially the newer members, if you want to go So I've been to several of them over the years, either in this capacity or for Carroll County. And it is a great way to kind of learn or kind of feel to get up to speed. They didn't do one last year, but they're doing one this year. So can you please make sure they get that information? And if anybody wants to go, that they can just go. You need to let staff know right away what you can make or not.

So it's the Maryland chapter of the emergency. They used to do it every year. Now it seems like it's every other year. So we will send that to you if you're interested. Let us know. We can certainly sign you up.

And they'll have different sessions. Like they might have a session on data centers and some of the issues related to data centers or whatever. It is a great way to kind of get up to speed.

It's the 18th to the 20th. So they do have a few classes on the Sunday. Then they have it all day on the Monday and then part of the day on Tuesday.

For the new members, the city will cover that cost if there is a cost. So don't worry about it. It doesn't come out of your pocket. We'll take care of that for you.

The state just had a training thing, one-on-one training? I don't think they did.

Great. Did you get a... I'm not done yet. Okay. If you haven't done the online training for a planning commission, be everybody's complete with that thing if you complete one on the past year okay right or do you have to do it okay as long as you listen i'll make i'll i'll work with ndp man with private planning to make sure they have everybody with students somebody's missing i'll get in touch with you okay right all right mr board is your motion to adjourn still yes sir um i believe you seconded it second

standing uh any discussion