Affordable Housing Trust Fund Board of Trustees - Regular Meeting

started. Um, welcome to the uh meeting of the um affordable housing trust. Um today is Wednesday, April 2nd, 2025. And this evening um we have uh members uh uh Maryanne and Angus, Matthew, and Anna. So we do have a quorum to be able to start the meeting. Um I believe member um uh Susan will Sue will not be joining us this evening. So, um, and Mark will be late and Mr. Bartlett should be joining us as well, I would expect. So, given that we have four members and because we do have um, uh, some additional uh, work to do regarding Derky tonight with MHP, I want to go ahead and get started. So Amy, um, are you available to be able to talk with us about the mini grants that are before you? Can you hear me? Yes. If you could speak up just a little bit, that'd be great. Okay. All right. Yes. So, I have two grant applications for you today. So um the application number two um this application is for a couple um seeking mobility mo modifications within the home to improve quality of life and maximize their accessibility throughout the home. Uh one of them has limitations with their mobility um especially with safely navigating stairs. So currently they are sleeping on the couch on the main floor um so in their living room. Uh quotes were received from three different stairlift installation companies as shown below. Um oh thank you Marin. You scroll down you'll see um one um so they initially the the they were getting the quotes for main floor to the second floor so they would be able to

utilize their bedroom again. Um, so two companies came in. Um, those first two, company one and company two came in for just that one stairlift being in the ballpark of 5,000 and one being 4,665. Um, a third company came in and they had given them an estimate lower, much lower, where they could actually get one for them to be able to access the basement as well. um for so they were getting essentially two for the same price as these other two companies were giving them for one. Um so having both stair lifts um will increase um their independence within the home and allow access to the basement to monitor and make sure everything is working properly. Um this is um a couple I previously discussed to clarify their home being in an irrevocable trust not making them ineligible for this program. um they own and occupy their home in Littleton and assume all financial responsibilities such as maintenance and property taxes etc. Um it was later disclosed that there is another property a cottage in Maine included in that irrevocable trust um that the children assume financial responsibilities for. Um this cottage is for personal use only by the family members. It is not an incomeroucing pro property. Um, I would like to note that the the applicants do not utilize the cottage due to mobility limitations, accessibil access accessibility barriers. Um, so they aren't utilizing it. It's more the the family that's utilizing it. So they that's why they assume most of the financial responsibility. Um, so that is this that's application number two. Was everybody able to hear that all? Okay. Yes, we Okay. U members, any comments or questions? No. Seems like a great use of the project of

the program. Yeah, agreed. I think this is one exactly what we had in mind. Yeah. Hi, this is Angus. I I think it's more of a health and safety issue and um they're not requesting for an excessive amount and we've ruled out any involvement of the main property. So looking at their age and their mobility issues, I think that this is one that we really should approve. So I move a motion to um approve as presented. I'll second that. All right. So, we have um a motion from Angus and a second for Matthew. Any further discussion? All right. Just just one one question. Are we approving one of the the proposals or do we um one, two, or three here? No, we're approving the least uh the proposal with the least costs. That's the one that's uh going to um where is it now? So Amy, what was Amy? Can you please reiterate the the amount that we are approving right now? So the cost the what we are approving based on the recommendations from the building department was for the the cost of company number three which is the two lifts so that they're able to monitor their basement. As we all know when you're in a home you need to monitor all w like make sure there's no water coming in. and make sure your foundation is um you know not having any leaks anywhere. So this was this allows them to be able to do that as well as accessing laundry um safely especially as they age. So um and he felt like it was a no-brainer to move forward with doing the two for the for the 6,995. Yeah, I would agree with that since it comes below our our limit.

It's well below the 7500 limit that we're supposed to and I think that it makes sense to go with that. Yep. Agreed. So, um Mr. Angus, would you like to reframe your your um motion or or Right. I'll I'll I'll go ahead and do that. Um, I I propose a motion to approve to this couple the uh itemized uh estimate number three for $6,995 to repair um the lifts to to fit their home um main floor and basement. All right. was, sorry, just before I second that, was the amount on the application actually $7,000? No. 69. No. Yeah. Estimated cost for the two stair lifts is 6,995. Then I will second the motion. All right. Any further discussion? All right. So, um, all in favor? Maryanne? Yes. Angus, yes. Matthew, yes. And Ann is a yes. and um Bartlett, we'll have you um take a look at the next one. Okay. Okay. All right. So, um application number two for the um housing mini grant program is approved. Thank you, Amy. Would you like to um go on to the number three? Yes. Um All right. So, application number three, this is 71year-old male who resides alone um seeking help with replacing his deck. Um the existing deck is a safety concern. The condition is poor and demand it deemed unsafe. Um volunteers um offered to assist the resident knowing he was not able to afford the

cost to repair or replace the deck um and were able to reinforce the stairs um as a temporary fix to help with when um this was brought to the department's attention. So this was actually one of those the stars aligned because this is one of the gentlemen that I was thinking of when we re when this grant became a possibility. So um this particular individual was in mine. Um he um the building commissioner Henry actually went out and actually reviewed the job to help give pointers to him on what to say to the contractors so that he could get some estimates for um replacing the current um deck. Um so the gentleman received four different estimates um and those all came in far too high for him to be able to afford them. they were around 16 and 18,000 to replace the existing um deck. So um I have Amy, sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. Um Mark just texted he would like to be promoted into the group. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for the heads up. Y Um, keep going, Amy. Thank you. Okay. Um, so since those estimates were too high, we kind of brainstormed and and talked about getting re revised estimates. Um, the way that this um house is set up, there's two sliders um and a main entrance door to the home on that exterior wall. And so the deck was extending beyond all of them. And you'll see in my notes, it's it was like a 23 foot by9 deck. Um, so we I had talked about, you know, let's let's see if we can finagle this a little bit so that we

can make sure you have safe entry to your home. So we we had the estimates revised um to maybe not go to the beyond the second slider that's on that same um exterior wall. And there is a way to safely secure so that nobody falls out of that other slider. So, um there are two the let's see the reduced like the one one of the estimates we had two different estimates the two of the contractors I apologize uh two of the contractors were not willing to move forward um with providing different estimates and two of them were so the the reduced deck size um from one of them was um from 23 by9 to 12 by9 um so they if you look down at those estimates you'll see the 12 by9 deck for 8350 and the other one is for 12 by8 um for 13 330. Um the the contractor that had provided the first estimate was also going to remove a Juliet deck on the second floor which is for a slider for the um bedroom I believe. and secure that safely because of the the structure concerns there. Um so the estimate one includes a lot for that 8,350 to improve the safety for this gentleman. So um and uh Henry did get back uh recommending the proposal by contractor the the estimate from the contractor for the estimate one. Um I don't think I missed anything. Okay. Um that I did note that you know with the remaining balance being around 850 we are looking to come up with um resources to help assist with those

costs and I do think that we would be able to do that. Um but there is that concern too. As you can see from this gentleman's um annual income, it's $25,332 a year. Um he has no assets. So this is that's what he has to work with to survive. So we will be looking into resources to help with that remaining amount. All right. So thank you. Go ahead. Question. I was just going to make a comment. Um, I think this is also a really good case and you know, thanks to the building inspector for being helpful and creative here. Um, could we approve this on the condition that we're able to secure the additional $850? I'm confident that you will, Amy, but I think for the purpose of tonight's meeting, um, maybe we could approve it with that condition. Would that make sense? I think I think that makes sense. Yeah. Thank you, Maryanne. Um, yeah. Yeah. Any other comments or questions? That's a good idea. Let's let's add that as a condition. All right. Any questions on the content of it? All right. So, um, who would like to state the motion to approve this with with the condition? So, I will make the motion that we approve this um application for a total of $7,500 on the condition that additional $850 is funded um prior to construction. I'll second. So, we have a motion to approve application number three for the mini grant program. Um with Matthew making the motion and Maryanne seconding. Um any further discussion? Okay. If not with that then

um let's um vote whether to approve this or not. Maryanne, yes. Angus, yes. Matthew, yes. Bartlett, yes. Mark, yes. And Anna is a yes. So Amy, this one is also ready. Perfect. Thank you very much. Good luck with the additional funding. And um just to confirm, we have no LRAP applications for this evening. Correct. Not at this time. Okay. Terrific. Amy, can I ask you a quick question? Sure. Do you anticipate more of these grants showing up because it seems like this is happening much faster than the LRAP did as far as people asking for money? Yes. I I've I've been very busy this week. Um, I feel like the awareness of of this program has has spread like wildfire, for lack of a better phrase. Um, so I've I've got a few more applications that are already out um with just basic information, letting them know about it and what the eligibility criteria is and waiting on that initial step for them to submit it. Um, so but there's been a lot of a lot more calls regarding it this week. Thank you. And within the last couple weeks, actually. So, um last week and this week. All right. Well, we will have our regular meeting in um less than two weeks. So, maybe we'll see you again. Yes. Terrific. Thank you so much, Amy. Thank you. All right. So, members, now we are on to the next final topic of our evening, which is around um Derky. So, I trust everybody received the email that was sent out explaining that we currently do not have a an RFP to review this evening, but that we do have much more

conversation with Laura and um Maren, if you see um Chair Stein from historical commission, feel free to promote her as well. Thank you. Thank you. Hello and welcome, Laura and Shelley. Good to see you both. Thank you for your patience as as we got through some um new mini grants that we are awarding to um folks here in town. Oh, um Linda, you're muted. Sorry. Hi. Hello. Okay, not muted. So, welcome. Thanks. Um, so we kind of have a lot to talk about today. Um, I did do a uh back of the envelope uh financial feasibility for looking at the number of units that um could be produced um on the land and whether or not that's um that's financially feasible given um you know snapshot in time given what's available for subsidies. um and looking at revenue and of course the high costs of construction. Um I looked at um a rental project for um nine units which was kind of pushing the um nine threebedrooms and then um that was kind of pushing the number of bedrooms based on the septic system. But, you know, we don't have a

calculation yet as to what a um innovative um system would would allow, but they usually allow 50% more. So, that's what I was basing it on. Um and I I used new construction um numbers uh and thinking that nine units would fit in one building. um and and did not look at at least initially did not look at the conversion of the v of the barn um because of the the cost really to do that. So, um I thought looking at a straight nine units and in one building or town houses or something, um would, you know, would give me a a ballpack idea of of where this stands. And the closest I could get um there's over a $2 million gap. Um and that's accessing um what's available now from the state. um and and not um not charging anything for the land. Um so there's a significant gap um in that it also brings up the question if you you know of access and parking but we'll put that aside for now. um if we don't you know um use the barn have the barn as part of the development. Um, so then I looked at what um, a home ownership project uh, given the same kind of parameters, nine three-bedroom town

houses. Um, and I can pretty much make that work. Um, financially, um, mostly due to the high, um, incomes, um, in Littleton or the, you know, the MSA that you're in. um and looking at um five at 100% area median income and four at 80%. Um, and you know, given I'm within $80,000 or so, which basically is is a break even, um, allowing for profit and um, and other, you know, the other expenses. So that's that's when you say allowing for profit, does that mean that you would look at the home ownership with a for-profit developer or do you just mean what's regardless regardless of whether it's forprofit or nonprofit, they need a profit, right? Um so it's not it's not um exorbitant. It's but um it's not break even. if it was break even, it would be infeasible because no one would do it if they didn't have enough money to um you know pay their overhead and and um and then have money for the next project. So, and some reserves um that $2 million gap that you talked about, could you describe a little bit more for us as to what resources you're you're looking at? I know that we had um talked with Linda Stein about some resources that um the historical component might have. So would you mind just kind of a quick rundown of that?

Right. I did not take that into consideration because I didn't think that the historic money maybe it would would pay for um the total conversion of the barn into units. Um, and I didn't really know how much money that was anyway. So, that was um the trade-off on that. And then I just maximized what um a developer could expect could um expect from uh HLC, the state um department of housing and livable communities uh based on a 9-unit development. Um they maximize maximize about a hundred thou they say $100,000 per unit um with their soft debt. So it's it's kind of it's a loan that acts like a grant. It doesn't get paid back in for 40 years if it gets paid back. No interest, no payments. So, it acts like a grant, but it's a a loan. Um, and that's really the only um because they do have a maximum, even though they have a lot of different buckets, um, the buckets together can give you $100,000 per unit. Got it. Okay. Um, so I wanted to bring up the historical the historical aspect. About a year ago when we went to the annual conference, um, there there was a presentation about the state group that would have his that would have dollars available for historical projects. Um, I can't think

of the name of it right now. And then Linda had indicated that there was a potential of using our local CPC dollars that she has in in her bucket. So yeah, I didn't know if that was something that that could be at least discussed. Do you want me to talk about that a little bit? Sure. Go ahead. Thank you. So um we have money in our CPC funds for historical preservation. I think we this is a ballpark but I think we have about 700,000 maybe more. Um I don't know that we would want to use all of that for this project. So for the moment let's say half maybe more. Um though it's not you know it's certainly not going to meet the $2 million gap. Um then there is on the state level there is I can't think of the name either. I don't know whether mayor you you know what it is maybe mass historic commission no I know but they have a certain program um I I I'm yeah I can't think of name right now but there is a program to apply for that I think this would fall under and I don't remember I think they have a fair num fair amount of money for projects um although it is competitive but I'll find out the name of it and I'll get back to you all. They do have historic tax credits. Um my concern would be that right with um with either CPA or Mass Historic, you do have to meet the Secretary of the Interior standards. Um and that usually that usually means not disturbing the exterior of the at least what is visible on by the road. Um, does does it really Well, we should

look into that. I Yeah, I don't know if it means not disturbing the exterior because they use this the federal standards usually usually allow rehabilitation, right? So, they probably would have something that for rehabilitation that would be different than preservation, which is stricter, but I can look into that as well. All right. So, if you don't mind, I do have one question. Um, Laura, did your cost estimate include or exclude the existing farmhouse? Excluded. So, without the existing farmhouse, there was a $2 million gap for a rental development of nine units on the remainder of the property. Yes. Yeah. Um, so, so that's what it looks like right now. Um I'm you know you could right now it looks like the only path is um is home ownership you could possibly pick away at you know the gap. You just have to kind of get it close because these are all you know generic numbers. are not, you know, I didn't get estimates for this. This is, you know, kind of the back of the envelope that you do to make sure that, you know, uh, it passes the smell test.

Um, so you know, there's some things you could think about doing. Um, you know, to pick, like I said, to pick away at it, whether you look for a small or um, uh, are you a housing choice community? Yes. And I don't know what the town's asking for for housing choice if they are. Um but you could you know apply for um say the infrastructure you know connecting the water and and um and for the septic system and um you know for for access um that's something that um you can apply for from the one it's not called the onetop. Yeah, it's through the webs for housing choice. Yeah, for housing choice. Um, so those are kinds of the things that you can do to reduce the cost to the developer and take them off the um, you know, take them off the board. Um, they add up. They don't add up to 2 million, but you know, you're picking away at it. Um you could um you could make it a modular project which would reduce the cost and reduce the um you could preference it for a modular project. So that reduces the carrying costs. It reduces the cost of the buildings themselves usually. Um there's more um as you know cuz there's one right in your town. There's more factories around than uh there were

even two or three years ago in Massachusetts. Um so that's another another option. Um, and you could put that in the RFP that you know it would you'd be open to or you'd preference um modular construction and that would attract modular developers which there are many that um uh that specialize in Laura, I have a question regarding um still going back to the the point where you're saying that um this that the only path is via home ownership. So when you were talking with us, I believe it was the first time and you indicated that in the marketplace there wasn't a lot of opportunity really for home ownership and and so I'm a little surprised that it's a complete turnaround. I'm hoping you can explain that a little bit more or I actually was pretty surprised myself. Um it there's not a lot of subsidy um for home ownership. Um but with the um median incomes and the incomes that are allowed under the programs, you know, under the um limits of CPA, um the the three-bedroom units are like even as condos. Um I built in condo fees because I figured they'd all be on the same parcel of land. Um the three bedrooms were like $375,000 or

$400,000 um which is getting close to what um the cost is um to build and you know they're not big threebedrooms but they're um you know townhouse size three bedrooms. Um, and so I was surprised myself that it came out, but I'm used to seeing sales prices in the two 270 to 300 range. Um, so adding that extra amount um, close the gap that I typically see. So, and I do I do think you can I mean it wouldn't happen as fast as you wanted it to happen this to happen, but you know, you could peck away at the at the rental, but it it's there's no guarantee um that it's going to, you know, going to work or that anyone's going to take you up on it. There never is. But, um, that's, you know, that's what I'm seeing right now. Um, so Laura, sorry, just a quick question. So, for the rental and the home ownership, you said you did not include the house. Is that right? No, I did not include the house. So, what happens to the house? Is it subdivided or is it just not used? Yeah, I think it subdivided and sold. And Laura, what was the reason you didn't include the house? because it's because it needed a lot as I as I read it looked like it needed a lot of renovations to make it livable and it

was a subject system for three bedrooms and there's lots of extra room in there so it doesn't lend itself to um an affordable rental or ownership. So the the sale of that property, the subdivided property then could contribute to helping to close the gap. Yes. Is that the idea? Okay. Yes. Laura, I have a a question. And when you were doing your back of the envelope rental versus ownership, did you use um the same sort of income level for for the residents, the 100 100% AMI and the 80% AMI? Yes, I did. Okay. So, it was apples to apples. Yeah. Sort of. Yeah. It was I was I I started lower, but Right. I was trying to increase the revenue. So, and you know, you could make more 100 unless you know, you have to have I think we I get mixed up with all the people I talked to. I think we thought that this was going to have to be a 40B. Is that right? That's how you had couched it was that perhaps it could be a friendly 40B. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'd still be a 40B. So, 25% would have to be at 80% or below. So there'd have to be three minimum at 80%. So we could add 100 which may, you know, would close at $25,000 or so. It's something, right? Um well I I think that what you've shared is

um is a lot um and I would actually like to ask Chair Stein you know what do you think about this because if this particular uh proposal doesn't include any historical component to it what does that mean for the commission? Well, if I understand your question, um I mean the affordable housing trust has to do whatever you have to do to make this work. We certainly would like historic preservation as part of this, but you know, I understand that maybe that won't work. Um but you know, Yeah. Yeah, I really didn't have any ideas about what to do with the barn. So, [Music] um, but I think it I think it cost it would cost more to convert the barn than it would to build new. Or let you What would you do with the barn? Would you want to demolish it? I guess you have to talk about that. I don't know. I didn't have an answer for that. Well, if we're already subdividing the property, the barn could go with the house. Right. Right. Right. We just have to make sure that there was enough room for access or easements over um in order to get access to the the surplus

land. And if you subdivide both, would there still be um enough space and or septic and everything for the other for the nine units? Um, is the land behind it conservation? There's a little bit of conservation along the um along one edge, but most of it's wetlands that is not um not conservation, but it's protected by conservation. Okay. If it's protected by conservation, then you can use it in your calculations for septic. So it depends what you bought a house. Sometimes some only want upland, but a lot allow anything that's in conservation because it can't get built on, right? So we can look at that. See what what's what's upland. [Music] Mr. Harvey, this is you're the lead on this project. What? Yeah. I' I've been trying to get um Joe Cataldo to walk through the barn with me because he has just um developed a barn in Littleton for market housing. um and he has no interest in doing anything um affordable, but he knows about I mean he's just been through a barn. So I wanted to get him in there and just talk to him about you know what it would cost to take the in internal floors out and build new ones. You've got the shell um which is I think pretty solid and um I mean it is going to be expensive

because the shell is really the only thing you have. Um but because you got to do it, you know, all the insulation and the mechanicals and the windows and stuff. Um so the you know the if if the floors can be made to have a different a sufficient floor to ceiling um on two levels, then I think we could go, you know, for a reasonable cost, then I think we could go ahead with the barn. I I really need to talk to him and we've been playing phone tag and you know each of us has canled me several meetings because of conflicts and so right now it's scheduled for for Monday next week. Can I make a comment on that? Yeah, sure. Obviously Joe Gatala did 12 Robinson Road and he it was historic preservation so he you know keep that in mind that he was able to do that. I imagine it does increase the cost, but he did figure out how to do it. Yeah. No, I think he'd be a useful It's just the exterior for 12 Robinson. He really redid the interior entirely. Right. Well, and I did I do want to reiterate um that if Mr. Catalo goes through there, he should not be looking to, you know, participate in anything in Right. He he agreed that he would sign a document to that effect. So, I'd like to get other members thoughts on what we've heard so far. Um, in the interest of not making

perfect be the enemy of good, I guess I would be in favor of this, but not it's not what I had hoped for, I suppose. Um, I think 100% 80% AMI is still very significant. It does perhaps fill a need. um plugs a whole one of the holes that we have in our in our inventory. Um but it's frustrating that you know giving someone giving someone everything we have it's still and all of the incentives you still can't make it work to make a an affordable house. So not sure how I feel about that. I also don't I also understand if this is what we have this is what we have and um better to do something than nothing and we have been sitting on this property for like two years now uh one only one yeah it December 2023 yeah it was sat on prior to that right yeah by others can you remind me how much CPA you used to buy the property. Yeah. $50. Okay. The the the barn that was converted, was that converted to condos or rentals? condos, I believe. Condos. Yeah. Two ownership in the um one in the historic house, one in the historic barn that was attached and a new duplex uh behind

that. So, we got four market rate units. Um the historic commission was able to place a um preservation restriction on, I believe, the house and barn. And when the um property was sold from the town to the developer, the funds CPA funds were reimbursed. So thinking about, you know, if if the barn could be converted and and sold as market, whether that could help, but I don't know whether that's, you know, certainly not your vision or what you wanted for this project. But yeah, but the barn's not the barn's not going to last standing there empty, you know, without some Matthew, thank you very much for your comments. Um, we need to hear from others as well, please. What are your thoughts? Because we we need to get it. So, I'll share my yeah, my comments again, not what we had hoped for, but I appreciate Laura and her expertise. I think you saved us probably a lot of months of deliberation on this. So, thank you for um for coming back with this. It's a different um demographic, I think, than we're looking at, but still to have home ownership at that price point in Littleton, I think, of you know, firsttime buyers, small families or young I think it's there's definitely a need for that. and adding nine of those in town right next to the train station I think would still be

very positive and you know supporting our mission well um I'm rather quite guarded about this uh the $2 million uh shortfall all of gap is quite troubling. How do we close the gap? Um and um uh repurposing the ban should it cost that much? I mean um I'm not expecting that they're going to repurpose it to the level of the RITs or anything like that, but certainly I I I'm not sure what cost goes into that. But um it's a big gap to fill and so I really don't have any options here. That means I'm not in favor of and neither am I against. But I'll just um go with whatever the group decides or approves. But I'm quite um guarded about this. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. How about you? Um, so I think we should explore whether the option of potentially um pushing the barn and the house as one one market rate for sale unit and allow potentially giving up some of our septic capacity on the property to allow the barn to be repurposed as, you know, two or three condos. And then that would allow us to do more more

more deeply affordables on the remaining. We probably could go below take all of them to 80% then potentially based on um well there'd be fewer fewer units a and um we'd have more funds we could apply to the project. Arlet. Well, [Music] um, it's a hard choice, but I mean, I think I would I I want to do something. I think that we, you know, it's our charge to to get affordable housing, whatever the level, into town on this site. And if the only way we can do it is to have for sale units, then I'd go with that. The other option is, of course, we just sell the property outright, allow it to be developed as affordable, as not as market rate units, and take the money and buy another property that might be more conducive to affordable. So um th those were my thoughts actually. I was thinking perhaps maybe just sell it to some uh rich person who um uh uh would use it for their toy and uh have it deed restricted to where they can't um make significant alterations and then uh spend the profit somewhere else.

So, um, my input to this, especially based on what was just put out there about selling the property, um, as Mark just said about selling the property and then using all the proceeds to a future project, I am adamantly opposed to that idea. Our job here is to create more affordable housing and all we're doing is kicking the can. and meanwhile people go without and so that is the absolute last thing that I would want for the trust to do. Um, I think that our charge, you know, speaking from the head and the heart, our our charge that we said for ourselves about 18 months ago was that we were going to dispose of this property and using the rest of our charges to look at it. Are we going to create affordable housing? Um, what would that look like, etc. And that's why we came down this road uh still with with the intention of doing something with this property so that we could get it off the town books, so to speak. Um from the heart perspective, it's just absolutely heartbreaking that we might lose another historical structure in town. It's just really painful because anybody who buys it is going to do exactly that. No, I don't think that's necessarily true because we can already I mean the historical restriction is already in the works, right? So they can put a historical restriction on it. We can sell it with a historical restriction on it. We can put all those restrictions on it when we sell it. It it it has a

historic restriction on it, but that gives you that gives one year before you can demolish it, right? So, you know, 12 months later, it's gone, right? But I think that also depends on how we sell it, right? We can put something I mean, 12 Robinson Road was had a historical restriction on it. We sold it and it still exists, right? There was Can I cl Can I clarify what you're talking about? Um, some of you referring to the demolition delay bylaw. We can delay demolition for one year. That's a basic thing that can happen. And then that would be the um 12 Robinson Road has a preservation restriction. Um Derky does not. Okay. We we can put a preservation restriction on the Derky, whatever, the house, the barn, both. It doesn't have one now. We can do that. Um but it doesn't have one now. Okay. Thank you. And if we do that, then they can't rip it down, correct, without going through the historical commission's approval. And the state and the Massachusetts Historical Commission has to approve it, too. Now, one thing to to possibly consider is putting historical preservation restriction on the house andor barn, trying to sell it, and if it just doesn't sell with that restriction, I think we can probably take it off. I'd have to look into the legality of that, but I think that could be that could happen. Maybe a question for Laura and Shel. If is there a scenario where doing that where selling the property and buying one that's more suitable for

affordable housing would actually be faster than working on the the lot that we have? I don't know. Or is it just going to take longer? It It might just take longer. Um it's hard to see. Um you know, and I don't know what other land is available um in the town. Um, you know, it would certainly if you could do a bigger development, not doesn't have to be huge, but you do have to, you know, get some scale. Um, that's what makes, you know, rental projects um viable and feasible. Um, it's, you know, you're not alone. This is the type of development that that lots of communities are looking for is a small rental under 12 units and it's really hard to make them work um unless the town comes up with $2 million or or something like that. And we've we've tried to get um you know special funding sources just for small units. Um but they also tend to per unit cost more because you're spreading it out. You you're spreading the fixed fixed costs um or they have to absorb it in fewer uh units. So, so Laura, given what you've just heard from all of members and um Chair Stein

from the historical commission, um what do you propose next? Um and I'll I'll I'd like to say this and I think I mentioned it at the very first meeting. This is our first venture that truly is significant with affordable housing. And so that's one of the reasons why we sought out subject matter expertise such as that from you and MHP. So I think that it is important that that you understand that you have a lot of folks who have um a lot of thoughts about what we'd like to do. And I think what you're doing is bringing a reality to it. And as uncomfortable as that might be, thanks. Yeah, this is the worst part of my job um when this happens because I did have hopes that we could um make it work. I think looking at um you know because you you are invested in this property and well you should be you know you got it for affordable housing but I think looking at the house and the barn as a package deal if you can put a historic preservation restriction on it I do it. Um, and that may mean, you know, you have, it may take you a little bit longer to sell it. Um, but then you're selling it, you know, for, um, uh, for a community public purpose. Um, and and that's okay. That's, you know, that's okay because it's a meaningful has meaningful contribution to your community. And then I'd look at um the remaining

um land as um I think I look at it as home ownership and at the same time um try and try and see you know this is this is new to you. it it's not that old to me. Um to to go through and and see if uh um how much do a little bit of research, see how much you can save with modular. Um could you do eight units modular and and rental and and you know close that gap a little bit more. Um, and then also take a look at, you know, can can you squeeze the state for a little bit more than 100,000? Um, that's up to the developer really, but we can get um, you know, some some thoughts from the folks that make the decisions. Um, so I wouldn't take anything off the table right now for the new development side, but I and also look at access. um because you'd hate to go down the the road and not be able to access it or have any parking at all. Um, I think though it kind of lends itself to um town houses so you can have um parking spaces at each um each residence. So you're not looking at a parking lot that tends to take up space with turning and everything else. So you're looking at spaces rather than than a parking lot. So that's what I'd look at. I think we can do some research

and some work in the next couple weeks. Um, and you guys can think about what you heard tonight and the different options. And then when we come back, we can start thinking about parameters for um what you'd like to see. Um and you know and start to to move forward um with with whichever you know whatever path you think um would be best. We'll, you know, in the meantime, we'll do a little bit more research and uh and then we can think about, you know, RFP or or how we get probably going to have to get an engineer in anyway to to um verify calculations for septic so we know how many bedrooms it can for capacity um and where you might subdivide the land and what That means with that easement whether you can build in the 40ft set back from the road or if that's owned by the road. Marin, you may know that. I just um noticed it says set back and I didn't know whether that's just a zoning setback or uh or more like a road easement. So, um that's what I would say the next steps would be. I don't want to jump into starting to craft an RFP until everyone's sure of of how we want to move forward. Um, and I think it takes a little while to to

settle. Yes, I would agree with that. So, um, when you say that you're going to go and do research, um, specifically on you said you were going to go and do more research and I was just saying specifically on, um, cost for for modular. Okay. Um and and um just kind of uh going through the QPR, which is the um states um uh qualified allocation plan. So, what funds are out there and then see under housing choice um what kinds of what kinds of funds you could, you know, possibly get from housing works. Um it's an application through the town, but it can be dedicated to a development. So, um, and I've had projects that have used it for the project septic system, their access, um, and their driveway, you know, roadway, whatever. Um, so you can, like I said, you can chip away at it because then even if even if it still isn't a rental project, if you can bring it down to 80% units, um, that will, you know, further that would be furthering your mission. All right. So, um, given our previous conversation, there was an outstanding task for us to do, which was to have had a vote on the disposal of the property.

And that became a U discussion as to whether or not that particular um motion needed to say disposition of the property for affordable housing or or not. Um, so did you have any recommendation on that? Um, I know folks are supposed to talk to town council, but it doesn't sound like that came together. No, given that wasn't a um imminent vote that the trust had to make. We have a discussion set up for I believe next week or I think so. Okay. with with Bartlett and Mark and town council. Yeah. So, yeah, typically it's it's a vote for the disposition of the land with the restriction for affordable housing. Um, and that typically um typically allow it allows you to do um some market or um some above what is capital A affordable. Um that's the way I see it in most most votes. So, but if you're already going to be having the discussion, have the discussion with council and since I'm not a lawyer, understand. Okay. But you do have experience. I do. So, Bartlett, in in terms of as the the lead on the project, um what would you say the next steps are that you want to take and then that others can assist with as well?

Um well, the the discussion with town council about how we phrase things. Um, there's a company Tri Triumph Trailer on the on air road also does modular housing. I'm going to go and talk to that guy to see what he has to say about our situation. Um, they they do a different type of modular, not housing. No, it is housing. I I was in there once and I saw it. Reframe. What? Reframe. I don't know who it is. Who does it? Okay. Sounds like the type. Is that a type of house? Modular house. It's a country. It's a company. Oh, company. Okay. Got it. It's It's in Littleton. I can't tell you where it is, but it's in Littleton. I've been there. Nine is the one that we visit. Oh, okay. Yeah. October 9. Wow, we have quite a few then. Yeah. Can can I ask a qu clarifying question of Laura? So, if we don't subdivide the property, since we bought it with CPC funds, can we have sell the whole thing? say, you know, you can re we're expecting you to rehab the house. you can put X number of bedrooms in the barn and then you know Y number of affordable units and look for one developer that does the whole thing or do we or are we required to subdivide this since we can't since we use CPC funds to purchase it and have to sell off the house and the barn if they're going to be more market rate

Um, so yeah, if you if you use CPA for the land, then everything that you produce on the land has to be affordable. Um, if you I think the Shelly, help I think the only way you could do it is to at least pay back I don't know. Sh. It's definitely tricky because the statute suggests that when you purchase a real property interest, you're supposed to put a restriction on it in perpetuity for the purpose in which it was bought. So technically, it should have been restricted for affordable housing when it was purchased. That usually doesn't happen. So that's what's tricky. It does, the statute though does allow that monies be deposited in the community preservation fund and one of them is proceeds from the disposal of real property acquired with funds from the community preservation fund. So it does seem to allow you to sell what you bought, but because section 12 says that there should be a restriction on real property for the purpose in which you bought it, it seems as if the per the property should be restricted for affordable housing. Apparently another question we should ask town council next week. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I also So yes, Mark, if you and Bartlett when you have that conversation can can talk that through that would be very helpful. Um unless was it bought for historic preservation as well where maybe No, it's like subdivided where some of it is historic and some of it is affordable or no, it was just affordable. Yeah. Yeah. Town council will have to work that. So we can sell it to for historic preservation to historical people and put the $50 in and then they can deal with it.

So, I I did want to point out to what Shelley just referenced, um, which, um, could be important and impactful on on anything that we do. So, let's say, for example, it does get sold, those dollars have to go back into our CPA fund and presumably into the housing bucket. But the CPC is a completely different entity than us. And there's no saying that what they do with that money means it's going to automatically get returned to the affordable housing trust. It's not a guarantee. That's true. But maybe the CPC and the affordable housing trust could discuss that ahead of time and come to some agreement. Bartlett, I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, I think that that Yeah, I think having an agreement would work. I think that the this I mean from my experience the CPC is pretty good at following um strings or you know attachments to to donations. I mean they've they've not questioned it. They've just gone ahead you know if somebody donates for a purpose it goes into that bucket. I think it also is something you could talk with town council about just add to like what would be the proper way to handle that. And the same must have been true with 12 Robinson Road that when we sold it, the money had to go back to the general CPC and not to historic, but I think No, no, it had to go back to historic. So, I think this money would also have to go back to the affordable housing trust. I don't know whether the fact that you only paid $50 out of CPC funds if that would affect anything or not. Probably not. probably would have to go back to the affordable housing or so if there's a precedent where if there's a precedent where a historic did not go back to CBC then it's may follow for the trust as

well. No, there isn't a president for that. It did go back to historic but I'm saying it went back to historic and not the CBC even though it was CBC. No, no, no, it was his. No, I'm sorry. It's the CPC historic fun. Oh, the historic. Okay. I'm sorry. Yes. Okay. Okay. So, the precedent is that it goes back to CPC. Yeah. And and that's how like the state CPC would interpret it as needing to go back to the I'm sure that he would interpret it as needing to go back to the the CPA fund as well. But I think the question is does $50 have to go back or does the whole selling price have to go back? This the statute says proceeds from the disposal of real property acquired with funds from the community preservation fund. It does not say just the the amount that was just the amount was that was used. Yeah, it says yeah. Okay. So, um All right. Thank you for for all that input. Um so, the conversation or our next steps, Bartlett and and Mark, um you know, disposition of the of the land, you know, what would a would a mo what would a motion be and what does it include? um than whether or not um using the CPA dollars um require any sale that were to happen to go back into CPC and if so does it go back directly to the housing bucket or how does it need to be um entered back in and then do we get the $50 um only or the full proceeds of any sale or the housing budget. Yeah. And then how do we get it back to the trust? So, lots of questions to follow up on there, right? Um Bartlett will talk with um modular

housing entities like Triumph. Um Bartlett, you and I can talk with CPC. You can talk with um Carolyn or go to that board meeting. Yeah. Linda, may I impose upon you to to look into the um um what was it that we said the restriction placing a historic restriction on the two buildings preservation restriction? Yeah. Look into it in what way? I mean, yeah. like what what is the process and and what we need to do or if you already know what that entails would sharing that. Yeah. Okay. I'll outline what the process is. Okay, great. Thank you. Is the process already in the works, Linda? I thought you guys asked CPC money to make that start that process. Um, yeah, that yes, I think at town meeting that is one of the CPC items that we that Yes, that's going to town meeting. And are the house and the barn both covered or are they separate or are they two? Is it one or two items? I think it's both the house and the barn. I have it right here. Let me take a quick look. Um, oh, I don't have it right here. I I think it is both the house and the barn, but I have to check. Okay. Do you want to explain a little bit more about that, Linda, just to all the members who don't know about it? Yeah. Okay. Um yeah, I don't have my proposal in front of me to the CPC, but what I remember is um we requested money from this the the historical commission requested money

from the CPC and the CPC has recommended it to town meeting. Um, we're asking for funds to uh to hire a historic preservation consultant to assist the historical commission to de well it says to develop an RFP. So that's different right now, but we can't really change the the language will probably stay the same, but um so essentially to help us develop language that we would include in a future RFP. Uh and a historical preservation restriction on all I have down here is 260 Foster Street. Um I'm pretty sure it includes the house in the barn. So, the preservation consultant would help us um write the preservation restriction for the house in the barn. She It's We'd probably use the same person that used for 12 Robinson Road. Okay, great. Thank you for all that information. And and that happens before the RFP, during the RFP process. Well, um the preservation restriction has to be part of the sale. Um it has to be so has to be part part of the closing. So we have time to write it. Um if if the affordable housing trust decides that you want historical preservation restrictions on the house and or barn, you know, we can go ahead and do that. um we have time before it's a actually needed. It needs to get approved by the state. So that takes some time. But is that right, Laura? It doesn't really have to be finished until the sale. Yeah. Yeah. Um however, we have, as you kind of know, we we started looking at Westford's RFP and our consultant and I have

You froze up, Linda. Oh, we still which we shared with the affordable housing trust. Linda, you you really cut out like 30 seconds ago, so we haven't been able to hear anything you were saying. Can you hear me now? Uh, it's very blurry. Maybe if you take your video off sometimes that helps. Can try it again. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That was weird. Yeah. No, now it's still garbled. Um, so just to finish up, um, can you still hear me? Sorry. Let me try to open my door. Can you hear me now? Oh, you just u muted yourself. Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. If it happens again, I'll just we'll just stop. But um I shared a list with the with the affordable housing trust of what we might consider including in the RFP for historic preservation and that would essentially that's what would go in the um preservation restriction. So we kind of have that kind of already developed at least a draft that you guys would have to agree to. Okay, great.

All right. Well, thank you, Linda, for bringing us up to speed on on all that and for working on it. All right. Anything else that we should add to this to-do list? All right. So, uh, Laura, I'm sorry. It looks like you were going to say something. I was just going to I was just going to ask if um you want me to um send you update emails before the next time we that would be helpful. Yes. Thank you. Okay. And then um we are meeting again in less than two weeks. We're meeting on what is it the 5ifth 15th. That would be our regular meeting. But if you think that we would have an update by then, then we can keep moving forward and putting you on the agenda. I think that's a very full I know it's a very full day for me. I'm trying to see if I'm Oh, yeah. I have to be in Boston. So, I don't get home before 6:30 when I Boston. So, I probably would not be able to be at that meeting. All right. But if I have anything to update you, I'll I'll uh send you I'll email you. Okay. All right. Thank you. Well, in the um in the pursuit of continuing to move this forward, then um is this something that you feel that we can meet again at the beginning of of of April or excuse me, beginning of May or should we wait until our May meeting?

Oh, you're muted. Yes. Uh I think beginning of May if you could get a meeting then okay would be good. So members um early May late April. So we have town meeting on Tuesday May 6th. So, so that's not a really that's not really a good night for me. No, no. So, that's not a good night for any of us. Park and I Oh, that's true. Actually, Martin as well and Anna and Linda. So, is your regular meeting the 13th? Yes, our regular meeting is April 15th and then May 13th. Yes. No, wait. It's the third Tuesday, isn't it? It's the Yeah. And we didn't we move that one? No, we didn't. No. It's the third Tuesday of the Right now it's scheduled for the 20th. [Music] That seems like a long time away. Yeah. So, I would suggest we either go for like the 29th of April. Yeah. if we think we'll be ready then or May 5th. Um I'd hate to do the 7th because you don't know for sure the town meeting is not going to go two nights because there's enough things on there's the possibility I wouldn't want to schedule this and then have to cancel it at the last minute. So I would say either the 29th or the 5th would be the best bets. Um I'm on a plane on the 29th so um you all can meet without

me. Um or the 30th. Anybody have incumbrances on the 30th? The 30th is better for me cuz I'm in Boston the 29th. I could make it home in time, but the 30th is better. I can do the I can do the 30th. Is there anyone who cannot do the 30th? I can do it. Okay. So 6:30 is still a good time. Yes. Okay. So, let's go ahead and schedule that then um as an interim meeting for the trust on Wednesday, April 30th, starting at 6:30 p.m. And again, this will be the focus of our meeting. All right. Okay. Anything else before we end this evening's meeting? Um, I think that I would like to talk to some realtors about [Music] um selling selling our property and what we could buy with the proceeds cuz I don't think that that's really that's a realistic um idea. I don't think we'd get very much for the five acres because, you know, the bu the developer of all those houses decided that it wasn't worth his effort to build a house there and it's um it's it's a it's a difficult site and there isn't a whole lot of land for sale in Littleton and you know the last time I checked lots you know building lots were going for like 250 or 300 or something and that's probably it's probably higher Now it's a million, Bartlett. Come on. It's a million. All right. I I I agree. We should do that, Bartlett. I'll I'll work

on that with you. All right. Great. Thanks. All right. Well, um Laura and Shelley, thank you very much. Appreciate your time. And members, if you can just hang tight for a minute. Thank you. Good night. Thank you. Good night. Good night. Um, any other commentary before we we um adjourn for for the night? Okay. Do do we have a I just I know this is going to take some time, but I don't know how long we want to spend. What's our plan on how long we're going to spend doing this? I mean, we have at least the 29th meeting. And are we hoping do we have a goal for when we're going to either have an RFP or decide what we're going to do? Cuz it seems like we can drag this on for a long time. No, I don't think that we're going to be dragging this on, Mark. And I know that you feel like you really need to be in a hurry to get this done. So, don't worry. I would say that as soon as we have the next conversation with all of these different next steps that we will be in a good position to have them start an RFP. So as far as timing, she gave us what the timing was at the first meeting. So I would say it's probably going to be a six-month process after she gets the RFP started. I did have a conversation with um uh Jim Dugen about the insurance and he was going to talk with Diane Dickerson about making sure that that was um getting started that she was getting started on that so that we have some

insurance for the um expiration of the current policy. So, I don't know if there's anything that you can do to help on that, but um you know, we'll probably need it through the end of the year, but that's my estimate as far as as far as getting it done. That's part of why I wanted to have the next meeting as soon as possible. I want to get it done as much as everybody else does. What are you calling done by the end of the year? That's my I'm just I think we need to just kind of set goals or a timeline what what we're hoping to accomplish by when because I know I'm not you I'm not trying to rush through this. I just want to make sure we're trying that we're making progress and a certain and not just spinning our wheels, right? And I and I don't and I do feel like we are making progress, but I don't know when we decide, you know, it's good. We've reached a point where we have to make a decision, right? And we're going to make a decision and and execute on that decision, right? We don't have enough information to make a decision yet. I just don't know when we think we will have enough, right? And be confident in that decision. Well, so let me put it this way. We could be further along if you and Mr. Harvey had had that meeting with town council. That meeting hasn't been had. So now you have even more questions to ask town council. So if each of us can make sure to get these next steps that we discussed done by April 30th and we can have again a robust conversation with MHP and I think Laura is ready to move on the RFP as soon as she has answers from us about these questions. Right. I mean, she pointed us in the direction of what she's thinking of would be in our best interest. And so, I think we should follow up on all of

that, right? You guys are going to do town council. Barla's going to look at the Triumph modular and we're going to talk to CPC so that we have an understanding of what's going to happen to any sale dollars. and Linda's going to go through her process with town meetings so that they can put that restriction on and then you guys are going to talk with the realtors. So again, it gives us more information and then yeah, we we have to come to a decision cuz it's based off of what she said we need to be able to have if we want to be able to have affordable units there. What I heard her say is this needs to be a for sale development and so we have to work toward that. Yeah. Um I would recommend we not lose sight of the access question as well if Okay. So who's going to look at that? Well, that does the access and and the the building that we're proposing sort of go together. I mean, it's hard to do one without the other. Okay. Sure. Just saying to add it to the list, Marin, I would recommend it be added to the list. Yes. [Music] So the other one is if we're willing to give up, you know, affordable units to allow a developer to put units in a barn, right? And how many units would that take? And can we do that and what that would mean for septic and everything else? And I and I don't know who's looking into that or how to look into that. Right. I think one of the some of the information we got early on was not to

try to design a development. Um you issue RFP to get the developers designs and um their cost estimates. I think your RFP could um if you decide to issue one um could ask for, you know, some affordable units, some market rate units and see how that gets um out how the developers would outline that, right? If we can ask for market rate units, which we're still not sure we can. So, if we assume that we can't, right, then we have two RFPs. One for selling the property, one for selling the house and the barn, and then we have to decide what we're selling with the barn, right? Whether we're selling it as a barn or as something that can be redeveloped, right? So, I mean, Bartland and I are going to meet with town council next week. If they say we can't do any market rate units, right, then there's no clear path where we're subdividing, what we would do for subdividing the property, right, that anyone's looking at before the 29th. That's my that's what I'm getting at. Well, you still you still have that information and you certainly can share it out to excuse me, share it out to Laura in terms of um any feedback that you want from her as to so that that then provides her with the ability to give us her thoughts before the next meeting because remember she said that she would give us her research information before the next meeting, right? So, if you then learn something from town council, then we need to be emailing her. I mean, I firmly feel that this is a two-way conversation with Laura. So, if you feel that you have information or you have additional questions, comments, you know, like the drawing you sent Bartlett, any of that stuff should be going to her so that it

can feed into um her recommendations to us. So, that's what I would propose for that to keep it going. Mark, whatever you learn, she's got to know what it is. Okay. So, should we summarize the different options that we're pursuing now just so we're all on the same page? Make sure we heard the same thing. Is that would that make sense? Sure. So, the options right now are what do you want to start? me. I can't tell who you're looking at. Yeah, go ahead, Marian. Sorry. So, the the one I heard was subdividing the the house and the barn together and selling that with historic restrictions and using the proceeds of that to support affordable housing on the remaining parcel. Right. Is that one option? Yeah. Okay. Then the other um unpopular option would be to to sell the entire property and use the proceeds for affordable housing. And a third option would be to sell to subdivide and make the RFP for the house in the barn such that there's market unit um market rate units in the barn. And then again using the proceeds for from that sale to support the affordable units on the remaining parcel. Right. And what else? We're what I heard was that we're not going to pursue

um the house the house for sure for affordable [Music] housing. Is that correct? Yep. And the barn? Probably not. Or do we see we not going to pursue affordable housing? She said that she seemed to still be open to that. I mean, she said that she would reconsider if the barn could be converted and sold as market. Well, she didn't have any affordable units in the in the barn as her current plan. So, correct. Right. Yeah. Thank you, Marian. So, I I think from from from the perspective of the different options, I think it's important to be clear with town council what those options are so that they can consider them as they answer the questions. So, so I think that's actually the fourth option then, right? is to sell the house and use the barn and the remaining property for affordable. That's that's the option that she didn't really consider. Right. Cuz I didn't think that was on the table. Well, she didn't look at it. She said she looked at a brand new structure, not the house, not the barn, I'm sorry cuz she thought it would cost too much. But if they're market rate then that could change the calculus potentially. I guess the other question is though can we separate the house and the barn? Well, we have some reservations about that with the parking and the turning

and all of that. It would require um a larger property to do. I thought I was referring more to the distance between the house and the barn. I thought they were really close together and it might not be possible. Bartlet, you probably know better. Hear you. Yeah, sorry. Um, yeah, the distance is a little bit over 19 ft from the house to the corner of the barn. So, I mean, it's possible to put a property line through there, but um you know, with easements, you can do you can have, you know, access. Um and this this parking space in front of the house, in front of that wing that sticks out. And I think that whatever parking there is for the barn would be on the uphill side of the barn. Um just because the land is flat there and it's on the same level as the entrance. And the basement of the barn really is there's so many columns in there that it's really not suitable for parking. So anyhow, something just crossed my mind. I beg a pardon. The um if a property line is drawn, is it going to traverse the well? There's a a well. There's some problem with a well there. Yeah. No, it won't. Okay. No. Yeah. The well the well turns out to be a large shallow um depression um that was used to water the animals that were there. And it's it's been filled in and there's there was a you know a two foot high stone wall around it and that it's been filled in up to

the top of that stone wall and there's a layer of concrete on top of the dirt. So that's no longer an issue and it's it's in directly in back of the barn um a little bit farther away from the house than than the middle of the barn. it just sort of it's it's I mean it's not a it's not an issue I think well and any developer I'm sure will take a look at that and yeah it's a raised it's a raised bed for gardening if you take the concrete off Well, thank you all for um for having this additional conversation. So, that meeting that you're having with town council is when? On the 9th, whatever day that is? The 9th is a week from today. All right. Thank you everyone for your thoughts. Make make a motion to adjourn. I'll second. All right. All in favor say I. I. Bye. Bye everyone.