Charter Review Advisory Board - Regular Meeting

Opening prayer. Mr. Zimmerman,  could you lead us, please? Stand. Father, thank you for today. Thank  you for this food that we've eaten,   for this group of citizens that are willing  uh to devote their time to help uh the city   commission provide advice as we look into our  charter. Thank you for all your blessings and   this community in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Perfect  timing. If you'll look at that. If you'll face the   flag. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United  States of America and to the republic for which   it stands. One nation under God, indivisible,  with liberty and justice for all. All right.   Call the role. Mr. Brandon Berg here. Mr.  Ron Danzy here. Miss Cecile Goon here. Mr.   Brandon Henderson Jensenius here. Mr. JP Ferrer  here. Okay, we have all members present. Um,   now we're going to move to staff introductions and  the explanation of our roles in this process. Uh,   I'm the city clerk treasurer for the city. So,  I'm the official recordke keeper. I'll be keeping   records and minutes of the of the meetings.  Um, I also do the Treasury, but that's not   really relevant here. Uh, and I call the order  until we appoint uh the president. Is that what   we're calling it? I think chairman chairman  of the board. Yep. Chairman, chairperson. Um,   and then I will hold turn the gavl over. So,  that's basically my role in this process. Mr. Manager, excuse me. I'm Jonathan Hayes.  I'm the city manager. And so my role is  

going to be more operational and support. I'll  coordinate the the schedule and kind of handle   uh a lot of the um just kind of the operational  communications, not necessarily a lot of the   legal. I think some of that will come from  both the clerk and the attorney depending on   uh what we do. But um again, it's uh just  more of an administrative support role and and   uh utilizing our facilities here  at city hall and uh and again just   uh managing all of the schedules and making sure  that we provide the necessary administrative and   operational support to this effort. So appreciate  y'all being willing to do this for our city and   our citizens and businesses. It hasn't been done  since 1962. So I don't think any of us was born in   1962. Yes. Some of us were I was going to set  maybe on that side of the table. But anyway,   so I'm just glad to be a part of this historic  effort for for our great city. Nevin Zimmerman,   city attorney. Um my role in the resolution,  it mentions I'm the parliamentarian. That's   something that I do, I guess, with the uh city  commission at on occasion. But my primary role is   to really just be here to provide support for the  uh the committee any you know to help you provide   context as far as the legal basis for a variety  of different things that come about. I will walk   through in a little bit some of the documents that  have been provided to you that explain you know   how where do charters come from what do they do?  How do you amend them? some of the things to look   at. But uh I also have Caroline Smith. Caroline is  attorney at Burke Blue and has provided all of the   u legal work um for on my behalf and uh she looked  and she's also done a lot of work on the elections  

issue. Um we did a redistricting uh about two  years ago and she did that work as well. So   she is wellversed in as far as charter elections  redistricting uh things like that that help. Also   Lindsay Gross is sitting to my right and Lindsay's  uh our legal assistant who helps us and runs the   city attorney's office as as we know. So uh we're  here to provide support any way that we can. I'll   hand I think I don't see that I I have a my cell  phone number on the top but here is uh I'll give   everybody a card and uh but that's how you contact  my office and uh contact me anytime on my soft uh the uh introduction. Okay, Jan, now we're ready for introduction of the  members. Next agenda item is the introduction and   background of our board members. So, you want  to start with Mr. Bird? And this is also your   opportunity to give a campaign speech because  next is election as your chair, right? Or for   somebody else. Yeah. Um, my name is Brandon Berg.  So, I'm an attorney. I have an office down at   215 Harrison. If you've been over to Fucci's or  Milliey's, it's it's right down there. We're real   proud of of what we've done with that building,  renovating it kind of uh I think we bought in   21 and moved in in 22. And so just kind of a big  big supporter of downtown in the Cove area here.   I I grew up in Panama City for all practical  purposes. My dad got transferred to Tindle,   graduated from high school here. I was the first  class to graduate from Arnold and um uh wife's   from Port St. Joe. We went to Florida State,  went to Florida State Log there from as well and   then moved down to Tampa to go work for a large  firm down there. And then at a certain point, we  

started looking around saying, you know, my folks  are here and Jennifer's folks are in St. Joe and   we're looking at having kids and so we moved back  here. So, we're one of the very kind of one of the   very few people that um I feel like kind of had  some uh professional accomplishments, were from   here, and then chose to move back here on purpose.  I I know I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but a   lot of people move away and they don't come back  or they move here for professional reasons. But we   were we were here, we went out and we moved back  because we wanted to be a part of this community,   raise our family here, um you know, and trade out  some of the larger city amenities for being able   to visit grandparents on the weekends and go to,  you know, up to the farm or out to the island or   whatever. And so um really just kind of humbled to  be able to be part of this process. Had no clue,   I don't pay attention to the city charter on  a regular basis. I had no idea uh when it had   been reviewed or anything like that. So, the idea  that it's been 60 years since this thing's been   um considered, you know, it's it's I think we have  an opportunity to be very impactful in the future   of the city. I think the city trajectory is is  very very positive. Um you know, my my focus,   rightfully or wrongfully, has largely been on like  downtown and the Cove. That's where my home and my   work is. Not to say anything else isn't important.  I'm just saying that's you know, I kind of put   my money where my mouth is. And um my my saying  around here is kind of like businesses when I was   growing up here kind of came downtown to die. Um  it's just kind of at the cusp of the mall coming   and now they're coming downtown to thrive whether  it's coffee shops or breweries and streetscapes   and what and my offices down here and so um you  know I love being a part of that. Helped do the   development work with Allen over at the Mashurn  and just been involved with some other things   like that too. So professionally pretty much all  we do is community association work. So condos and   homeowners associations. So very very familiar  with these types of governance decisions like   how do we do things? How do we make it clear? I I  think it's interesting um and I'll wrap this up uh   for us as a as a uh group because we have various  players that we have to consider here whether it's  

the citizens ourselves the council like uh staff  there's there's all these different players and I   think ultimately we got to figure out what can we  get adopted what makes sense and then ultimately   like as I tell all my clients it's got to be clear  like if we can draft the best policy on the on   the planet but if it's unclear vague if there's  holes then I think we're creating more problems   than we're solving So, that's going to be where  my mentality is on like let's get feedback from   everybody that we can draft the clearest thing  that we can and then uh and go from there. So,   I'm just I I'm I'm excited to be here. This is  really cool. I appreciate the opportunity. I'm   really looking when I saw the list of all y'all  too, I was just this is a really really solid   group and I think we're going to do some cool  things. Um Brandon Henderson Jane Senius. So, I'm   an advocate. You guys ever heard of like a work  life balance? So, I don't believe in work life   balance. I believe a work life blend that equates  to and for me personally and professional and   personal professional blend. So I'm blending the  two. Um personally uh my family's legacy is really   important to me. So the Jansenius family was one  of the first shopping founding families in Panama   City. Um founded a drugstore in St. Andrews. So me  and my kiddos take a lot of passion in that. We do   a lot of genealogy together. Um the Henderson  side of my family more northern part of the   panhandle. So, I'm panhandle strong. Been here my  entire life. Love the Cove neighborhood is where I   live. Um, I also chair and admin the Cove Events,  which is a nonprofit in the Cove community, and I   manage our Facebook page. So, 2500 neighbors.  Um, and I get the the privilege and the honor   of representing them at all the commission  meetings. I I did do a lot of polls. I have   a lot of community input. Um, where I pull a lot  of feedback from the Cove community and downtown   and get to share that. um with the the city  commission. So, you'll see I'm usually a familiar   face in the audience there. Uh professionally,  I I travel a lot for work. Uh you would know  

because you see me here all the time, but I  do. So, I'm a COO of a coaching and consulting   enterprise company. Um specifically, I work with  private equity firms in the service industry. So,   private equity has been a really big initiative  in the business world the last probably 5 years or   so. It's going to continue to be a big initiative.  Um, so I coach a lot of service industries on   how to produce to a profit to a bottom line. Um,  which is my financial literacy side that I'm super   passionate about. And my coaching, my people, my  culture. So in my businesses, I coach two things.   You only got to do two things right all year. And  you only got to do it 12 times. So you got to do   culture. You got to protect culture and you got to  protect profitability, which is performance. And   you only got to do that 12 times, one time a month  for each P&L. Right? So, it's super easy stuff. We   make it bigger my harder than it has to be. So, we  I do tend to blend personal professional. It's a   little bit about me. Okay. My name is Cecil Skoon.  Uh was not born and raised here, but I came here   early in my adult life. I got orders from Casper  Winganger. So, I was stationed at Tindle active   duty as an assistant staff judge advocate. And  I think at that time our uh the JAG office would   meet downtown once a month with some of the local  lawyers at the bar meetings. It was very informal   and there was so little development between the  base and here you just zip on down. We kind of got   away from that as the base got bigger and bigger  and more rules. But feeling very warm uh warmly   received by the local community seem to really  support the military. My job on the base was   basically city attorney because we have contracts,  we have civilians, we have a local and all that.   So that's was my start. My husband Alvin Peters  work for Carol McCaulay. So we decided, Alvin and  

I, that this was the kind of community we felt  that we could contribute a lot to. Very small,   um, very friendly. We were amazed having been  raised in bigger cities that we missed, you know,   going into the stores and everyone would say, "Hi,  how are you? Didn't see your church, you know,   how are your kids?" or something about a sport  they were playing and then you go in the big city   and nobody knows you. They just go right by you.  So, we said, "Hey, let's stay here and enjoy some   of that." Um, in my private practice, a a small  town lawyer, a lot of divorces, probate matters,   and specializing in employment matters on the  plaintiff side, trying to make sure people get   treated fairly and not be impacted by their  packaging. Can you do the job? That should be   the question. And I firmly believe in that. um  been very involved in volunteer work from the   get-go when I was active duty. I started a group,  the first uh Girl Scout troop, first black Girl   Scout troop in the county ever. And I was told  that couldn't be done. I'm like, are you crazy?   But we we did that at the community center and  grew up became a pretty significant Girl Scout   volunteer and I've been either on the board  or chairperson of most of the arts groups,   my undergraduate degrees and studio art. So I was  on the uh Barretts Alliance, a visual arts center,   just a lot of them. And then when my children  are in school, major volunteer in the schools.   People thought I was a school teacher, but I was  self-employed, so I could move my hours around,   but I've been um a board member of the school  advisory councils for the elementary schools, the  

middle schools, the high schools, and sort of, you  know, that side of trying to help the community in   education. kids were all very involved in sports  and band and I was on that. So spent a lot of my   time just being near the kids and trying to pour  back in into the community. So I'm very interested   in things that could better erase all boats and  make sure that no segments of the community are   uh not attended to. And some of that I've observed  is learned silence. In certain communities   historically, not all has felt welcome. So they  don't tend, they don't speak up, they don't make   their needs known. And sort of my being involved  just in a lot of volunteer groups, a lot of people   talk to me about what they're concerned about.  So, I hope to bring that perspective in addition   to anything else I can bring to the board and  and be a conduit for everyone's needs to be   heard. I'm very excited about this opportunity.  Setting a charter is the foundation like laying   a foundation to a house. I think we all understand  the tremendous opportunities that we have here and   I'm I'm very pleased and proud to be a part of  the team. Cecilia, what excuse me, what was your   role with the League of Women Voters? Oh, yes. My  most recent role is um I was a local president for   the League of Women Voters in Bay County for  about eight years. And under my jurisdiction,   we started going back to doing local forums, which  people had not been doing. They were only doing   the congressional. And I was like, the league  is opportunity for anybody who has a good idea.   don't have to have a big checkbook. Friends with  people with big checkbooks. If we have a forum,  

the newspaper comes, the TV comes, they hear  your ideas and your the marketplace of ideas,   it can be everyone can hear. And so that's  something that I really started and it's now   going. It's it's not everywhere. Rising to the  ranks. I um was just uh president of the state   league of women voters which is 29 chapters for  two years and I just finished my co-presidency   with a good friend Debbie Chandler in early  June. So I'm just like you know we've been   carrying all these responsibilities and this  opportunity came about at a very good time   because I footless and fancy free. I still um have  committees that I'm involved with on the league,   but no statewide league leadership role. Hi  everyone, I'm JP Ferrer. Nice to meet you all   of those I haven't met. Uh a little bit about  me, I moved here in 2010. Uh so I'm Panama City   is sort of my adopted community. uh my company  that I was working for at the time moved me here   and I ran a plumbing supplies business here from  2010 to about 2019. You know, during that process,   that's where I started to become involved in  some local issues at the time because I moved   my business uh into the city limits at the time  and I started to learn some of the issues of city   governance and sort of the issues that businesses  had, especially all my customers, most of them   were small, family-owned businesses, some of them  generational, some of the challenges that they had   been facing, and that started getting me involved  in some of the local political issues where I met   Cecile and some of those, you know, back 10 years  ago plus. Um, I loved I loved this community. I   think it was a great it was a great place to  raise a family. I came from a very big city   in Miami and in some other big metropolitan areas.  And I love the community here. Uh, in 2019, I went  

to Florida State Law School, got my law degree,  and then after that, for the last three years,   I've been prosecuting at the state attorney's  office. So, I'm really excited about this. I love   to nerd out on some of the intricacies of city  law and municipal codes uh and what our charter   here like you said the foundation for what we have  and the ability to make it clear like kind of like   Brandon said uh to sort of lay out the road map  for what the city can be in our principles. So I'm   excited for that and I'm really impressed by this  group and hopefully we can all live up to what the   commissioners have entrusted us with. Thank you.  My name is Ron Danzy. I was here last time the   charter was done. I was I was four. I've been a  resident of Panama City since 1958 cuz that's the   day I was born. And grew up right down the street  at 931 Grace Avenue downtown. Um been a resident   of Panama City except for about 18 months, maybe  two years when I started a business in Enterprise,   Alabama. I was in the moving and storage business  and distribution business, owned warehouses,   etc. for 35 years. Um during that time, um I  was also an elected school board member for   12 years. Um chaired that um quite a few times.  Um sold my business, my United Vanine agent back   in 2017. Um did some consulting work because  of my education background and charter school   um affiliation. I was on the board at Palm Bay  Education Group. Their executive director left   um about four years ago and the board asked me  to step in as CEO. So now I'm CEO of Pal Bay   Education Group. Um but been in Panama City  all my life. Grew up in a feed store that's   uh corner of East Avenue in Business 98. The  building's still there. It's got a nail shop  

in the bottom of it. That's where I grew up. Uh my  dad came here in 1938. Um built the place on Grace   Avenue and it was a plotted cornfield at the time.  So um I care about Panama City. Um been here all   my life. Love it. Can't imagine living anywhere  else. And since nobody else made a stump speech,   if you want somebody to be chairman, I  volunteer. Uh uh I second that motion. Yeah. So that is that the appointment  then we who wants to I mean I'd   like I'd also like to be considered  as chair. Um I don't know if you want   to talk or if it's if it's No,  nobody else had the opportunity. No, I'm I mean if if you want to stomp  speech, I'm a student of leadership and   um when I was on the school board, we led the  school board to get what's called um it just left   me um board master boardmanship from the from the  state of Florida. I was chair at that time. And   so leadership has just been my mantra for a long  long time. So, um I know how to run a meeting. Um   I like to be short and concise and not wordy. Um  and so if nobody else wants the job, I'll take it. Yeah. The only thing I'll add I the last thing I  want to do is get off on a on a contentious foot   going here. And I'll tell you after you got I was  excited when I walked into the room. I'm I'm even   more excited now. I just didn't really contemplate  like the deep roots that everybody has here,   especially Ron, you this I was writing down  these addresses that you were at. Um, you know,   I think one I think we're going to be successful  regardless, but the biggest thing is I've I mean  

I've sat in association board meetings dozens  and dozens of times where we've kind of gone   through a very very similar process where we're  building consensus. We're understanding what the   issues are. And what you end up finding  is like most of the time people identify   problems and they don't really know what the  solutions are. And that's fine. and they'll go,   I keep running into this roadblock. I keep running  into this roadblock. And I think the chair is   going to be able to say, listen, let's try to  draw out all the problems that staff has had   or citizens are had or whatever. And and I have  thoughts, don't get me wrong, but ideally it's   ultimately it's like how do we make this thing  effective to meet the citizens needs? And this   got to get approved by the city council. So,  it's kind of just understanding that process   and and what threads to pull at the right time,  running a good organized meeting, and then drawing   consensus or not necessarily consensus, but at  least feedback from as many different pockets   and areas as absolutely possible. So, you know, if  if if I were selected or appointed, I guess chair,   you know, that would be the main goal is keep this  thing organized. We're all professionals. Let's   not spend, you know, all of our waking hours  on this thing. Let's be efficient. Let's get   as much input as we can from every corner  that we can. let's identify the problems,   let's draft good policy, and then let's  put it together. And then ultimately,   it's got to be I'm kind of putting the cart before  the horse. It's ultimately the city council and   then the citizens that have to approve it, right?  So, I mean, even if we draft this amazing thing,   there's still no guarantee that it gets done. And  that's the thing that I've seen a ton is we've   put work into, you know, declarations and bylaws  and they're they're masterpieces, you know. No,   they're not, but there are. And uh and then you  can't get it through the citizenship. And so,   that's kind of one of my questions. We can talk  about this later. It's just like how much can we   actually do with our wish list of things if we  can't get the citizens to adopt it ultimately.   So that's kind of where my head's at. So if I  could serve that'd be great, but you know it's   up to you guys. I do have a quick question for  both of you guys. What does citizen engagement   look like from a chair perspective? Like say  that again. What would citizen engagement look   like? How would we how would you encourage citizen  engagement to gather feedback during this process  

as we review the charter? Well, I believe the I  think it's already started happening because I've   already had some conversations with folks, but I  think continual continuing the um advertisement,   if you will, whether it's social media, whatever,  that seems to work the best in today's market. Um,   but just make sure that they know that they can  have their input that that we we represent them.   We were all appointed by a commissioner. they  represent the the the city and and so do we.   Not to put it back on you guys, but I think each  person kind of needs to go out and get to their,   you know, we're all appointed. I guess mine was  Allen, but we all kind of had districts that   were semi kind of representing. So, I think the  idea would be talk to your folks, have the city,   you're going to have to come at it from two  different directions. Individual contributions   from everybody that's on this commission, what  committee, sorry, committee. And then I I've   seen the same thing too. You've got to put this  on Facebook about seven times more than you think   you have to. Like you can publicize, publicize,  publicize and go, it's been on there a million   times and some citizen is going to say, "I never  saw it." And it's not their fault. The algorithm   or whatever else, but solicit feedback, bring  them to the meetings. I think we need to take   independent actions to try to get feedback on  ourselves. And then also, but I also think it's   going to be I think the citizens are incredibly  important, but I also think getting feedback from   staff is incredibly important. I I don't know  how much we're allowed to have the city council   involved with this as well, but I mean it's  honestly like I think staff's going to be a big   help on this too. You're all the ones who've been  living and breathing with this document more than   we have. So, it's going to be all those things. I  have a question. Would um either of you consider   like having town meetings, open town meetings or  not just soliciting, you know, individual input,   but opportunities where people could come and  say this has been a concern or something like  

that to us. Well, I'm 100% on that and clearly  I'm thinking out loud. So, do that independent of   our own meetings that we have here. Yes, I'm not  opposed to it. Yeah, absolutely. What about you?   I'm not opposed to it, but the education for the  community would be an uphill battle. They have no   idea what a what a charter is, and so that would  be a real burden to try to get normal rank and   file up to speed what a city charter is, right?  That that'd be really hard. Yeah. I wouldn't you   would you would spend the first meeting in trying  to explain it uh expect them to come up to speed   because so many things that planners and leaders  do the little people it's just a vast difference   but they can tell you what where the rock is in  their shoe yep that it would be more like that   or some idea that they saw somewhere else that  they'd like considered from that perspective   I think and back to getting the citizenry to  support whatever we come up with. You're just   planning ahead. If you present the opportunity for  people to participate and they come and they share   their good and their bad and their ugly with us  and we listen, they're much more likely to vote   for it down the road than if we're in Ivy Cath Ivy  Tower and they don't feel connected. So from that   perspective, not to full education, that's never  going to happen. You wouldn't even attempt it,   but just, you know, what are some of the things  that we should consider and that were roadblocks   for you or opportunities for you? Yeah. So the  the if I may just briefly, I just want every   meeting is public and every meeting will have an  audience participation option just for the record,   for y'all's awareness, as y'all deliberate. But  again speaking from the community that I've lived  

in and understand this is uh not a comfortable  place for a lot of community to speak and listen   and wait. That is not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about bringing it home, you know,   in a community area where people are comfortable,  whether it be a church or a community center where   that's their place and we came to listen to them  so that there's that integration between different   communities so that they feel heard. Again, the  payback could be, hey, they support whatever we   come up with. So that could be a short-term  benefit. the the subject matter of what we   develop would benefit and then pay back hopefully  they would support whatever hard work we're going   to put into I can tell we all really care. So  that's what I was talking about. Even though   I understand and I I'm glad it is a public just  looking around the room this is not the kind of   place that a lot of people would feel comfortable.  I'll make a motion fit Brendan Berg be chairman.   I second that motion if you need a second. All  right, Mr. Berg, yes. Mr. Dany, yes. Miss Goon,   yes. Mr. Henderson Jansenius, yes. Mr. Ferrer,  yes. The motion passes five to zero. I will now   pass the gavl to Mr. Berg. And by the way,  the name of the committee is the charter   review advisory board. Advisory board. Not sure  who made tents, but it's the advisory board.   Um, and the next thing on the agenda then is the  appointment of the vice chair. And I'll let you   take that. Um, the last comment I'll make, not  going to piggy back on what you were saying,   Cecil, is like at this point I would like to try  to be not literally right this second, but be  

aligned in the overall objectives of things. The  tactics of how we do, we'll have to figure that   out. I don't think any of us have given a ton of  thought to do we have a town hall, where is it,   what time is it, but we agree on like the idea  is to get as much input from any from as we can.   What I have found in my experience when we're  doing this with our condos and our homeowners   associations is you want to try to flesh out  every problem that you can possibly find. Now,   inevitably it'll be, well, my utility rates are  too high. That's probably a problem. not really   going to go in the charter, but like let's but  I until I have like the full all the cards out   there, we can start saying that's a charter issue,  that's not a charter issue, that's a neon issue,   that's we can kind of start parsing things out,  but until we can flush all those things out. So   everything that I think we're going to do here,  if it's in the spirit of at least especially in   the short term here, let's just get every problem  that we can find and get it on the table and then   we can go from there, that's I I'll support any  of that stuff. Perfect. Thank you. Cool. Um All   right. So then the next issue is the appointment  of a vice chair. Is there anybody I guess want   to volunteer be considered? I would like to be  considered for vice chair. Brandon. Yeah. How   awesome would it be if the chair is not here  that the second Brandon takes just keep the   sign of the plan? Thanks to record. It does. I  did not. Brandon number one or Brandon. I make   a motion that Brandon number two be the vice  chair. I second that motion. Okay. M. Oh, I'm   sorry. Is there any, I guess, debate or anybody  else that would want to be considered? Well,   Mr. Dancy, you were were interested in being  chair. Would you be interested in being vice   chair? No. I'm I'm ready to move on. Okay.  Thank you. All right. If there's no debate,   then we'll call the Was it call the role? Yes.  Mr. Berg, yes. Mr. Danzy, yes. Miss Goo? Yes. Mr.   Henderson Jansenius? Yes. Mr. Ferrer? Yes. Motion  passes 5-0. And I promise I won't stumble on your  

name every single time we say anything. All right.  So then the next item on the agenda is document   dispersement description and explanation. So is  this I'll I'll do it. Great. uh you have an agenda   and with a notebook and what I thought I'd do just  spend a few minutes and talk about the documents   that you have and provide a little bit of context  of where we are, why we're here and uh everything   that you have uh the city commissioners have seen  as well. Um so um the the first document you have   is just the letter that uh was written to the the  last letter. This was first looked at, I believe,   in January of this year and a report was made to  the city commission uh about the about the charter   and then the commission voted 50 to let staff go  back and bring back a process. It came back up in   um in June. And then if the next the next thing  is a memorandum that's prepared by Caroline who's   here. Uh but the memorandum kind of goes over the  history. I believe now I don't have it written   down but I believe it was 1908 when the city was  formed but that was the first charter and then the   charter was changed in 1928 27 or 28. But what  happened kind of interesting in 1908 uh Panama   City was formed. RL McKenzie was the uh first  mayor. Uh then Panama City became the county   seat when Bay County was formed. It was carved out  of Washington County and that I believe that was  

in 1912 or 1913. And then there was a town of St.  Andrews and the town of Milville. And then 1928 uh   the act of the legislature merged the three into  well merged Millville and St. Andrews into Panama   City. And the only everything of any substance  that a city would do until home rule in the 19   uh early until the 1960s had to be an act of the  legislature. If a city wanted to borrow money,   if a city wanted to adopt an or they didn't adopt  ordinances, uh it went through the legislature and   all charters were legislative acts. They weren't  voted on, you know, by the individuals. It was   all through Tallahassee. Then in 1963 was the  last time the charter was redone. And that's   uh what you are looking at is the 1963 uh  charter that was uh passed by the Florida   legislature. Then I believe I believe it  was 1968 but it was in the late 1960s the   constitution was amended for the state of Florida  and it allowed home rule. So for the first time,   counties and cities adopted ordinances and they  were able to establish their own laws, their own   rule and also there became a process where they  could amend their charter and u and it was a and   that's what came about. So and then as time went  on as you I'll just hold this up as an example.   We didn't do this, but this is if you went to  the to the website and you went to our charter,  

you'll see like the first item has all these  editor notes. And so those are all ordinances that   have changed that particular provision. Here it's  a description of the city and every time we have a   uh an annexation or something we write down the  ordinance. So what what you have in your book is   the charter but then Caroline went through and and  stripped out all of the editor notes just to make   it easy to read. But if you want to see the editor  notes because what they do is that by statute then   things got removed from the charter and we can  uh adopt them by ordinance. And so the lot of   things that used to be in the charter are now in  ordinances and it wasn't removed by the people,   it was removed by state law. And so there'll be  an editor's note that says that provision has been   changed pursuant to ordinance da da da and Florida  statute. So that's a little bit of the history of   the charter and um and how how we uh got to that.  What's something and this will come up again   u probably two or three times is that when the  city was formed we had uh single member district.   So each ward had its own commissioner that was  elected from that particular ward. So I mean   and so only the citizens of the ward voted for the  commissioner of that ward. In 1963, it was changed   to at large elections. So the convention and it's  similar to at large is similar to what Bay County  

has. The four county commissioners, they have to  reside in their districts, but everyone votes on   them. Uh so then there was uh some litigation in  the 1980s, the Battles federal lawsuit case and   as a result the city commission said, "Okay, we'll  we'll accept a resolution of this litigation and   the city went back to single member districts and  and that was done pursuant to a court order and   the U and and then there's a a note there's an  editor note. You'll find it in there where where   we where it was changed back to single member  districts. Uh when we get when we get to that   section, we'll talk about it in more detail. But  that's more of just an illustration of how even   though the charter has we haven't had a charter  review committee and we've had no elections,   that doesn't mean the charter hasn't changed since  1963. It's changed because of a court order. It's   changed because of Florida statute and then it's  changed because of ordinances that have now how   certain things can now be controlled by ordinance  and because of a Florida statute being adopted. So   you might look at the charter and say well there's  not much to it. Well there used to be more you   know that 1963 it was more but uh a lot of things  are handled uh in a different way. But the history   of of what happened is all in those editor notes.  So they're to me they're very interesting and   they're critical but for just reading the charter  they they're they're cumbersome. So yeah anytime   I have a question. So, should we consider for  simplicity sake putting some of the things that  

were dealt with by statute back in the charter  just so that there's one document that reads more   fluidly? We can look at that. I mean, we could  make Caroline, do you have an example of what what   has been taken out and is now by ordinance? Um but  but we could you've given some good I mean those   are good examples what you what you gave of the  the election code is now by uh Florida state law   rather than locally done so tax collector is with  the county now it's no longer with the city that's   one thing that applies in my department what we  could do is the headings are still in there and   and so we could just for our purposes go back and  do a little summary of what happened. You know,   that's being handled by ordinance, whatever.  And and we could even have attachments. Well,   we could look at that. Back to think it's simple.  Yeah. You know, so someone looking at the charter,   they're not going to invest a day of going  back and forth and have three documents. Oh,   it's in here. Let me look here. Oh, back over  here. Just one thing that sort of gives you   a summary. If you really want to know, then  go to the controlling document that's cited,   but just a little Yeah. of what the meaning is.  So if someone did choose to read the charter,   they would understand it more. And I view that as  a tool to to help put everything in one place to   get public support. Yeah. Yeah. I was you beat me  to it. I had a similar question. So this document   that we have here, this is fully compliant with  all the local laws or sorry like applicable   laws. There's no contradictions in here right now.  Like whenever I get a set of governing documents,   it'll have things that reflected the law in the  70s and the 80s and we kind of have to clean all   that stuff up. You're saying this has kind  of been a living document to where we're not  

doing any of that sort of administrative cleanup.  This is a substantive thing we can work from. Um   yes. But when I say yes, it's it's what we had in  1963. But the editors and when I say the editors,   it's between the clerk's office and municipal  code. And it's municipal code. They have gone   through and already stripped out a lot of things  that are uncon. There are some unconstitutional   things in the 1963 document. It's already been  removed. We don't have to remove that. It's gone.   we have uh like the atlarge elections and things  like that that's been dealt with. So hopefully,   but I can't, you know, we're going to go through  it and see if there's anything that else that   maybe we ought to deal with. But but hopefully  it's a it's a breathing living and document that   does not have to be changed to meet any type  of uh legal review or standard. Okay. um the uh   charter and and that's kind of your outline of the  charter. So the charter review advisory board uh   the commission expressed a desire to have it. Uh  we don't have a um um requirement in Florida law   or a requirement in our charter to have a charter  review advisory board or charter review committee.   Uh there is a provision in our uh charter that  allows the city commission to adopt committees and   that's essentially you know what what we're doing  here. It's an advisory committee but you'll look   if you just Google you'll see charter review  advisory boards or committees are are set up  

different ways. Some by ordinance they actually  have the authority to put ballots directly to   the referendum and bypass the city commission.  But that's not what we have here. It's uh by   resolution. We just adopted this uh committee to  provide advice and uh get back and and provide   advice and u report back to the city commission.  Now as you go through one question I really   u thought was interesting is okay as we go through  this process how do we involve the public how do   we involve staff how do we involve the city  commission so I mean that's something if as   we go through here if you wanted to have a joint  meeting with the city commission to give a kind of   a halfway report or something I mean that's it's  totally up to you and the city commission how you   want to interact um uh formally on that. So that's  uh something to think about. As we thought about,   okay, charter review, we looked at what Lyn Haven  there, Lind Haven has had charter amendments and   Panama City Beach and Callaway. Panama City  Beach is just a little bit different as far   as their charter goes. So we focused on Lyn Haven  and there's there in my in that memo that Caroline   did there's a example of Lyn Haven uh as far  as the calendar when they met I think they were   a sixmonth time period. So was about a year and  Callaway was six months. Okay. So they they went   through and then also we have the questions there  that they uh voted on or or that the commission   approved and then they put on referendum. So  that's the process as far as here locally in  

the last few years and amendments to the charter.  Um so that's the memorandum basically that we have   for you. We also have a uh best practices. It's  a PowerPoint presentation. Um, we'll send you a   link with all this. This is much easier to read.  Jonathan sent it to Jonathan sent it to us last   night. Yeah. Oh, did you? Okay, great. And so  we've got the municipal charters. It's It's just   kind of a best practices manual from the Florida  League of Cities. And then we have what at the   top, this is an unofficial edited clean version  of the Panama City Charter. That's u our attempt,   Caroline, and and me, to go through and take out  the editor notes just to have one document that   you can kind of read through without getting  bogged down in all of the uh editor notes. Uh   the next the resolution that the city commission  adopted. Just a couple of points to that. Uh the   committee is advisory and it's subject to  the sunshine law. I I at the end we have a   short summary of the sunshine law as that is put  out by the uh state of Florida I believe the uh   division whoever puts those out this might have  been through the first amendment foundation but   u through the attorney general's office but the  main thing to remember is that you are subject to   the sunshine law so the the five of you can say  anything you want to about what you want to see   and how you want to vote as long as we're together  in a meeting. If we're not together in a meeting,   then you really need not to do that. You can  socialize, you can go to church together,  

you can go to parties together, you can go out  to eat together, but just not talk about how   you're going to vote at a subsequent meeting.  And even though your vote is advisory, this is   the beginning of the decisionmaking process for  the city commission. So it's sub and and you are   official committee adopted by the or set up by  the city commission. So So just understand like   I can't call Cecil and say what are you hearing  out there? What do you think about this? That has   to be at this open meeting. Yes. Okay. Yeah.  I mean if it's about you know her neighbors   or something. Sure. Right. If I see Brandon at a  COVID event, that's fine. But if I'm like, "Hey,   I know you had that town hall. How'd it go? What'd  you hear that we have to wait till this?" It It's   best because it's uh I mean, there's there the  It's best to wait until we get to hear and then   have reports because what you hear may influence  a decision that you make together. Even though   you're not asking Cecilele exactly how she's going  to vote, that information that you're gathering,   you're gathering it kind of from one another  and not independent. You're you are free to   go out independently and have your own town  halls or talk to your neighbors and all. So,   it's best if you when you talk about this subject  that you talk about it together in here. when you   talk together about it clarification I think  I understand don't talk amongst ourselves on   topics pertaining to our work but if we're in the  community and a community member I'm concerned   about blah blah we can have that conversation  one-on-one with a community member correct it's   your job I mean seriously I mean and that's or  any of us it's just the five of you yeah it's  

just have you talked to. So if I had a question,  I could call Carolyn or yourself. Yeah. Yes,   ma'am. Okay. Only in that conversation. You can't  ask the city manager what Ron Danzy thinks about   that. That also breaks the challen. You can't  ask him what I think, right? Got to try to go   around the world. Can't use people to be conduits.  What about conversation with city commissioners?   Current city commission. That's interesting. Uh  I I I think it's all right. Let me let me think   about it. But that's that that when Brandon  mentioned about involving city commissioners,   that's really one reason why I thought it would  be good if if you do want to involve them before   you come to a conclusion to have a joint meeting.  Uh but let me think about it because I actually   u let me get back with you on that. I think it's  probably fine oneonone because obviously you want   to report to the commissioner that appointed you  and keep and I'm pretty certain it's fine but I   want to think through a couple of issues because  they're in that decision train and I just I feel   like it's fine but let me Is it any different  if it's writing like if we have some kind of   summarization and then we email all the other  members is that a different is that a distinction   or that a It it is different and and and give you  an example with our city commissioners. We have a   we'll have a city commissioner that says, "Hey,  this is what I think about a topic that's coming   up at the next city commission meeting and and  uh would you please share this with all the city   commissioners?" Perfectly fine. It's public there.  It's a public record. They're not communicating,   you know, one- on-one privately. they're  communicating in writing and it's all public and  

uh so that and and it's it's happening  more in the last couple months even   uh with our new commission because they're just  used to communicating that way and so we make sure   that all commissioners get it and uh Jonathan  will send out an email you know commissioner   so and so everyone gets it it's public and u uh  so that is fine But but my request is send that   to Jan or Jonathan and then we send it out.  See what's the when you get an email from me,   I'll put in red letters at the top. Uh please do  not reply all. Please reply to me or talk to if   you have any questions, talk to staff. But we just  we just can't we don't want emails going back and   forth that that would be a violation that aren't  public. So is that helpful? Yeah, it's I think I   you all going to be great. This is I mean really  this is going to be you'll have good comments and   we'll be able to conduct everything appropriately  on that. So what's the what's the actual process   here? So we we come up we vote till we approve  kind of a proposed charter eventually. I see the   schedule here. It looks like we're I didn't know  I was committing for two years but you can do it   in three months. I didn't know I was committing  two years. One year just one year. Oh one year.   Okay. So I went all the way down to the bottom  and I said February 57. I'm I'm off. I'm off.   for the commission to get we kick it up to the  city council or city commission city commission   approves it then it goes to the citizens and then  it's what's how do they approve it on the ballot  

it's on the ballot I have a majority of everybody  or m what's the threshold oh majority vote you   have 50% plus one okay of all the citizens yes  who show up who show up well that's that's a big   difference yeah okay yeah who show up to vote yeah  so and and unless there's a special election that   election would be in April of 27. That's why you  saw the two years there. But you're right, all of   the meetings are to occur. This this committee  isn't to exist more than a year. I don't know   that it will take you a year at all, but that's  uh that's so so historically like I have not   paid attention to these other charters. Do they  tend to get passed? I guess Callaway's passed,   Linhaven's passed, the beach has passed. Like  there's the chances that this gets put up and then   gets turned down. absent us doing something kind  of I don't know Ron you were there at the first I know Panama City you can't second guess the  voters of Bay County or of the city of Pedamo City   you can't second guess I know some some provisions  in the past that Panama City Beach had failed and   I can't tell you which ones they were but these  last two examples they were you know approved so   is it up or down okay Well, we'll we'll get into  it, but uh Callaways, you either approved all of   the changes. You either voted yes or no on all of  the changes. Lyn Haven, it was yes and no on like   five different things. So, three of the changes  could have been approved and two kicked out. So,   that's that's a strategy. Strategy. Yeah, that's  not the commission decision on how that Oh,   ultimately, but you can make a recommendation  to the commission and then they make the final   decision. Purely been my experience when you have  some of these situations where you have a really   antiquated document, if you can get like 85% of  it kind of as you can do that as one vote and   then you may have a few issues that are a little  bit more controversial so you don't throw the baby  

out with the bath water by trying to put some, you  know, Trojan horse in there. that you then cuz we   have 50 years of catching up to do like let's not  try to pass something else that's you know perhaps   more aggressive that way we can get at least some  momentum I guess the len haven thing my guess is   theirs had been reviewed not that long ago so it  was just a few discreet changes where sounds like   this is going to be a wholesale rewrite I think it  can be could be but the likelihood of it probably   not so because our charter's been I mean we  live by the charter there your position city   manager position is pretty clearly defined in the  charter. I guess it just depends on the substance   of the changes. If there's like, you know,  sweeping changes to something, then you rewrite   the whole thing. But okay, makes sense. Um, so, so  that's the resolution and then there is and then I   guess the last thing we've already talked about is  sunshine law. So that's the the additional things   back there's the example from um wild. Yep. We  ended up not put that in. But we have except for   the charter piece, the the PowerPoint presentation  I think that um went before Wildwood's charter   review committee uh came from the Florida  League of Cities and it was very, you know, very   applicable. Um, the only part of that presentation  that we that we removed was the actual Wildwood   charter because it ended up getting amended and  wasn't, you know, relevant to what you were doing.   If if you want to see examples of charters from  other areas, we're happy to provide that for you.   But, but this was a PowerPoint presentation that  gave a general overview to um to guide you. It was   it's a guide on how to to um review a charter. And  then we had a proposed timeline which we've talked  

about. And then the other document and we passed  this out. It's just a west. It's not west law,   it's Lexus Nexus. It's chapter 166 about charter  amendments and then the attorney general opinion   summaries and all. But we'll pass that out right  now. I just thought it it's cuz that's the statute   uh that they're going that we work under to  amend the charter and I just did not include   that initially and that's it. Thank you. So let's  look at the the timeline. I just glanced at that   suggested dates. Those are just suggestions on  the dates. We just made up one day a month. I   don't know if that's really Well, the August date  and I I hate to would hate to start out missing.   I'll be out of town for a long scheduled vacation.  This committee, this this board is completely free   to change any of these dates to fit your calendar.  This was just a suggestion to give you an idea how   many um articles that you're going to be looking  at and um but it was this is only only suggestive   and okay so I just could see right from the  get-go the next meeting August the 28th would   be a conflict for me for longstanding holiday away  is would anybody object to so I think what they   with the exception of October and then obviously  November is the holidays is it's always helpful to   say we're going to do the last Thursday of the  month and that way you kind of just know it's   the last Thursday of every month. Now that being  said unless it's changed unless it's changed and   so you know if we know there's a conflict then  we can kind of work with yeah uh with modifying  

that. We do it occasionally. Um we've done it  a lot recently with the city commission but   but modifying meetings uh you know we just need  to make sure that it's done in advance so that   we can prov provide appropriate notice and update  the schedule for the city calendar appropriately.   That's why I'm speaking up so quickly. Well, it's  actually the next thing agenda. So we're good. So   August 28th I I would be away and I would prefer  for it to be the if it's the Thursdays that we   like I know keeping consistent the next Thursday  would be September 4th or you know shortening it.   Are you are you going that entire week of August  the 25th? Yes. Okay. As we're figuring that out,   are there any other conflicts with any other dates  or the 21st or August, too? Let me look. I think   I'm good for all of that stuff. I still have  oldfashioned calendar. Ron, are you good for   those dates? I'm looking. So, September 25th.  I'm on that week. Okay. But I mean, it's almost   there. There's going to be chances some of us are  not going to be able to. Yeah. The likelihood of   all five of y'all attending every single meeting  is very unlikely. Very unlikely. Are there phone   options and stuff too? Uh you wouldn't be able  to vote, but you could participate virtually.   We do that with our commission, but if you're not  if you're not in person, you can participate in   the deliberation and discussion, but you would  not be able to vote if there is a vote that day.   I'm a little concerned by the 28th  because we're just getting going. So,   I think the the first few meetings we have  and I'm not looking past it. I'm I'm trying   to figure out do all the other dates work and  we're just moving one or two as opposed Maybe  

we just can't do the third or the last Thursday.  That's why I'm trying to I'm just trying to get   an inventory of how the schedule works. Yeah. But  we we we I don't want to do the 28th either. You   could also look at starting the first um the  first Thursday of of of September potentially.   So there's always going to be conflicts, but you  know, it is more difficult in the in the last week   because you get into, you know, especially  around Thanksgiving and Christmas. And JP,   do you have any conflicts? The not not with any  of these. The first week of the month is always   my trial week. So that is the the first  week of the month is always going to be a   problem for me. Okay. Um I I do see another  one the 26 my daughter's getting married for and and just in term in terms of week  for me the second or the fourth week of the   month will always be better with my court  schedule. The second Thursdays I'm I'm I'm   free for the most part. So maybe we all agree  on the second Thursdays of every month. Yeah,   that should work. Any scheduling conflicts? No, I don't have SK any scheduling  conflicts for the second. So that   would be what? August 14th. September 18th.  August 14th. I guess I'm starting. Yeah,   that would be Yeah. The second August  14th. Yeah, that that's my birthday. Today's my birthday. Happy birthday. I mean, two weeks might be kind of quick.  You you start the 11th of September 1st. And   what's the expectation? So, is the expectation  that we review the the meeting items and come  

prepared for discussion or are we discussing  at the meeting? Yes. All of the above. Yes,   exactly. So in the meantime before now in our  next meeting we can engage the public in the   article one and article two we can gather  feedback if there's any proposed changes we   bring those to this two weeks might be kind of  tight is that your point yeah yeah I would say   yeah we could start with the second Thursday of  September second Thursday of September September   11th oh sorry the second Thursday of the month  starting in September my feeling guys is I I   I don't know what problems that we're trying to  solve at this point, right? And so I'm not saying   we don't look at it in this order. I I just also  think it's a little bit like the dog that caught   the car. It's like I don't I don't know what's the  right way to go about it. So I I'd almost want a   little bit extra time. Talk with staff, talk with  councilmen or council members, go from there. And   we come back in and we actually have an idea of,  okay, I've read this charter now. I understand it.   I've talked to some people. I I have a a general  idea of what we're trying to solve here. I don't   know if this schedule is too quick or not quick  enough or even the right way to go about it. And   I'm not I'm not saying not saying it's bad or  anything. I just don't know. You guys will be   able to adjust it as you move forward. I I will  tell you when you talk to the elected officials,   you're going to get five very different opinions.  We talked to the five of them every week. So that   might be more that might be more uh uh you know  I think that will provide good clarity but it's   also going to raise more questions which I think  is also good and a part of the process. So can I   make a motion Mr. Chair? Yes sir. Can we I make  a motion that we meet next on September the 4th meeting? Yes. and then we'll table the rest  of the schedule until after that. That'll give  

us all time enough to to look at the charter, do  everything, meet on the September the 4th and then   we can adopt the calendar as it is or whatever  from then. Okay. So, your motion is to meet on   September 4th at noon and then we'll establish  the rest of the calendar at that point. Yes,   sir. Is there a second? Second. Is there  discussion? Uh JP, that's the first week of   September. I don't have a trial in September.  I'm okay. Yep. I can make adjustments to for   the fourth. All right. Any other discussion?  All right. J. Mr. B. Yes. Mr. Dany. Yes. Miss   Goon. Yes. Mr. Henderson. Jensenius. Yes.  Mr. Pereira. Yes. Motion passes 5. Okay. Okay. So now between now and the 4th,   we look at article one and article two.  Do we engage the public in feedback and bring that to the table? But we cannot speak  amongst ourselves. Correct. Correct. Okay. So,   let me ask you from the Sunshine Law, if  if I were to have a town hall meeting,   could any of these guys also attend the town  hall meeting? Okay. Um, without participating? Let's go back. Brandon asked a good question  earlier about talking to your city commissioners   and the answer is yes. Okay. You know I  you asked and I hedged because I I just   but anyway the answer is yes. So you can  talk individually to city commissioners   and and give them your own report about what's  going on. Now if you had a town hall meeting   uh it it uh what what we have done cuz that  situation has happened with us. We we'll have a  

meeting in a particular district and we advertise  it. We wanted we would like to advertise it for   you. You can advertise it however you want  to. Um, and we do have others that do come,   but they don't participate. Is that a fair  statement? They'll usually if it's advertised,   if it's fully noticed, there's no reason why  they can't participate. And fully notice,   but they typically out of respect for the person  whose town hall it is, will typically sit in   the back and just kind of observe and listen  so they can hear everything firsthand. Now,   when the meeting is over, you'll see people in the  audience both, you know, go to each of the elected   officials and engage with them. But that's why  Kristen's important because we want to make sure   that if you do do a town hall that, you know,  that it's listed on the schedule so that no one   will accuse us of trying to have secret meetings  or or you know, because everything needs to be   done out in the open and in the sunshine. So my  understanding is we're not siloed from our board   into any specific works. We might have been  nominated by commissioners of specific words,   but we're not siloed into correct. Yeah. You're  citywide. So, as we're thinking about this, I'm really bad about which of these things  act independently and which of these things   kind of all work together. So, like I I'm you can  please push back on this. Like when I'm looking   at these sections, it seems like something like  police protection kind of runs in its own world.   Whereas if we're talking about city commission,  mayor commission, city manager, those all kind   of work together, like that that's it's hard to  do one without sort of rippling out to affect the   other. Is that making sense? Are there some some  things that we should look at like listen these  

these articles kind of all work together and these  are some other articles that kind of just run on   their own that you can amend this thing and  it doesn't really affect anything else? Yeah.   For example, we I uh Carol Carol Caroline and I  and then we all talked uh about what do you do?   How do you how do you start attacking this whole  charter? And we looked at how other charter review   committees did and then they ended up doing it  as simple as this. You know, they would take the   existing charter and then they just walk down  it. it. Others did it different ways, but yes,   you could look at it and say, "Okay, we're  going to do police protection, fire protection,   uh, in one meeting." Uh, and then another meeting  could be, uh, clerk, taxation, and finance,   you know, I mean, those are all kind of similar  type functions. But uh the first so my my thought   was well it's going to that first meeting where  you talk about the charter in general that's not   going to take very long but you're going to  have a healthy discussion about the form of   government. Is it a strong mayor form? Is it a  council a manager form? And that's all and that   will take a healthy part of of a meeting because  that's I mean it's a critical thing. And so we so   maybe that that's the first meeting and then you  c and you give you all time and you especially   Brandon to look at it as chairman how you think  it could be divided up. We're we're just here   to you know to help yeah facilitate however  you want to attack it. there's no no rule. But I think the main thing is get a kind of get  a regular schedule date and then be prepared to  

move it if you know if y'all need to like the  first Thursday of each month or something.   You had mentioned earlier that the the  election process had changed in the 80s   away from what it is what it was then to  what it is today where it's not that large.   There was a lady that approached the commissioner  commission several months ago that asked could we   go back and that would be something is there an  opportunity to go back or is that something we   should engage the public in and saying how would  you appreciate having a commissioner that lives in   the ward but is elected by the city by the people.  Is that an opportunity to go back? Well, you can   engage the public, but I can and and when we get  to that section, we'll talk about it at length,   but but on that. So, what advice do we give as  far as your legal counsel? The advice is that we   believe that that that the that particular federal  lawsuit judgment is no, there is not continuing   jurisdiction from the 1980s. Many people disagree  with that opinion. So there could be a possibility   uh of the a um ACLU or others uh filing a lawsuit  against the city if the city were to go back to   at large elections. I mean strong possibility  of that. Very strong. Very strong. Very strong.   Probably automatic. Yeah. But but I'll but  I'll advise you that I think that there's no   longer continuing jurisdiction and that that's  something that can be done. Now just bec that  

was excellent question. The city commission  considered that very well kind of that issue   uh two years ago when they drew the lines for  redistricting because you have to redistrict   whenever you're out of kilter populationwise by  more than it's not a sign it's not a mathematical   formula but more than 5% out of kilter. So we  redrrew the lines, the city commission did,   and they they got input from the NAACP, they got  input from the ACLU, they got input from wherever   anybody wanted to give us input, and they ended  up redrawing the lines. Uh but they preserved   fairly consciously, but it was uh a a a majority  minority district. Uh and and that is something   that they they said we like that we we want to  continue that. It made sense geographically. It   no neighborhoods were split. it's contiguous  and they didn't talk about going back to at   large elections or anything, but that uh but the  litigation came up in that context and they they   liked they they decided they liked what we had and  and they continued. But to answer your question,   it is something that you could talk about and  it's fair game to and we'll just advise as to   you know risk of litigation just you know as a  lot of ordinances you just you advise on that.   Does that advice need to be at the meetings  or can we send you emails or something before   with an idea through a screen of making sure  that everything is up to par on all all five   of you individually. Call me, call Caroline, call  Jonathan, call Jan anytime outside of meetings.  

You can ask me and that's email too. Okay? Uh, and  remember if you do write emails, if somebody asks,   I want to see all the emails from the Charter  Review Committee, you're going to read about them   in the News Herald. Well, no longer, but anyway,  someplace maybe maybe channel 13 page. Yes. Yeah. But they're but they're my point is they're  public. Uh but now and then typically when   I when I get a a a email for legal opinion  from a commissioner, not a formal opinion,   but just I'll make sure that that ultimately  gets to all five of you. So we're not you're   not getting private opinions. You're anything  we tell you, we're going to all three of us,   we're going to try to make sure that  you all get the same information. That was too tough a question in the first  video. And you saved me from opening a can   of worms by answering. So that's good. Yeah. But  something y'all will have to consider and this is,   you know, this has been a topic of conversation  is as Panama City grows, especially with Panama   City North with the same size pretty much square  mileage, it, you know, the 5% that Mr. Zimmerman   talks about in order to protect the majority  minority district. It it's it's tough. So one idea   has been floated that maybe during this process we  consider going to six commissioners and then the   mayor so you have seven in order to you know give  kind of um a voice a choice. Yes. And and and and   kind of just like a better representation of the  type of city that we are. So that's that is one   of the options that that will be before y'all  throughout this process. So I would just say  

that historically the at large has been a way to  suppress black representation and that's known in   the community and feared and would start a lot of  illwell. I actually I did consider that because W   one always shows up to vote and if W one is always  voting then they get the majority vote if anything   happens. It's just the history you know the the  city I should know the map but the city that grows   up like you're talking like up 231. Yes sir. That  that that draws I mean that's is that the same   ward as that's like the Glenwood Milvilleish  errors. The problem is the redistribution of   the politician. Yeah. As it grows, you have  to balance it. That's where I'm going with   that. Right now it's with Sweet Bay. Yeah. So, and  Forest Park. It goes like this. Interesting. But   before the redistricting, it was part of the Glen,  but there wasn't anybody up there. And so now, but   that's not the case anymore. Adding another war  is kind of interesting, too. Yeah. because they   need a fair representation and it's not included  in word two, right? It would be a way to balance   everybody's concerns. So, would you guys be open  to we're going to meet on September 4th. I'll   speak for myself. I have not read the charter. So,  give ourselves an opportunity to actually read the   charter. Uh if you guys are open to it, I'd love  to after I've read it kind of say here's sort of   the buckets, the compartments of things that we  can have and maybe we can start start frameworking   it that way cuz I continue to feel like if you're  talking expansion of city council seats and the   manager's role as that all relates together that  you can't do one without the other. And so, um,   there are some things that probably don't aren't  going to require nearly as much time that we might   be able to click, you know, chip away at three or  four of these in a single session as opposed to  

other ones might be require a ton of debate. So,  I I don't mind sending out just a draft of here's   how how I kind of think I see this bucketed. And  then we can come back at the next meeting on the   4th and have some substantive discussions. We can  talk to our people. We can have read the charter.   We're going to be in a lot better spot. And then  at that point, we can game plan. All right. Here's   the next number of meetings. here's kind of what  we're going to talk about and we can leave we can   walk out of there with actual plan. So I do like  that idea. I like that it maybe we come out of   it with a list of five generic questions that we  all go ask the public instead of each of us having   our own individual questions. Yeah. Okay. That way  there's un we are all in separate boards. I mean,   we all have different representation, but the  questions, not that we can't be unique in what   we're asking and some things that are important  to us or our ward, war one's going to be different   than war two. Mr. Zimmerman, do you see any issue  with us maybe down the road if if the advisory   board desires to do some type of online survey?  No. I mean, there's no legal issue. and and that   was where I was going because I'll probably I knew  that's where you were going. I'll probably use   social media to poll and survey the co community  and and individual commissioners. I mean,   we we had a city commissioner that was always  doing surveys. Um so, and that's fine. And the   the thinking and this is good discussion but  the thinking of the proposed timeline was just   to I think the first meeting of covering city  commission and mayor commission the different   forms of government that's going to that's going  to take a meeting and then be then leading up to   that meeting um Brandon you come through and  think through how to you know divide up the   rest and we can talk about it on you can talk  about it with the commissioner on September 4th.

Yeah. Again, when I look at this, and Grant,  give me just give me some grace here. Like,   when I look at sections like the city clerk,  I just don't see a lot of passionate people,   no offense to the city clerk, that are just like I  this is this has been on my mind. I'm so glad this   finally came up. I got real thoughts on the city  clerk position. Um I do think on the the expansion   of the seats and the wards and strong mayor, weak  mayor, city mayor. I there's all kinds of thoughts   on that. And then I so, you know, I'd love to  see other like I'm going to do my own research   on other cities that are in a similar size and  growth and what have they done and how they've   been successful or maybe there's examples of ones  that have been unsuccessful. I I I don't know. Um   but I'd like to come back in the next meeting  and say, "Hey, here's some examples of things   that have worked and not worked having read the  charter, having talked to some people." And if   you do have some questions, I mean, we have  a resource with the Florida League of Cities.   uh you know, there's about 400ish uh towns,  villages, and cities across the state of Florida,   and they're a great resource uh on a number of  issues that we deal with every single week, really   every single day as a city. So, and and even as  you look at it, if you want to, you can shape the   first meeting, you know, what you think is most  productive. We're here to just help you get there.   I'm just trying to help myself get prepared and  that's why I'm sharing with everybody else. I'm   like, read the charter, kind of compartmentalize  this stuff, talk to some people, figure out what   the big problems are, walk in prepared to that  meeting on the 4th with an idea of like here's   what the next couple of months look like and  then we can tackle it that way. Um, you know,   one of the things that I I I even just sitting  here started to wrestle with is like some of these   systems make a ton of sense when you have faith  in your leadership and then when you don't it's   not nearly as much fun. I mean, like, I'll make  no bones about Allan's one of my best friends. I I   love that Allan's been elected mayor. It's really,  really cool. But then you start thinking, well,   if you start rolling up more decision-m in that  role, but then if it's your less favorite mayor,  

like perhaps some other ones we've had, you're  like, what's good for the goose is good for the   gator, right? So, you start thinking about these  things and it's it's not you you have to take   the personalities out% 100%. It's very hard to do  having been elected politician. It's very hard to   do to take the person out. But for the charter,  you you have to you can't think about our less   liked mayor. You start going into almost like  or commissioners too for that matter. You know,   you start going almost like some founding father  type stuff. You're like, the system's kind of   almost designed to not do certain things. Uh and  that's that's, you know, a feature, not a bug.   Interesting. I do think that I I understand where  you talk about the emotional component, but in   reverse, the different personalities you do have  at the table. I see it differently from the city   clerk side, specifically from social media. I get  tons of feedback about the city clerk's office,   the collections. I mean, that's how the water  bill stuff got brought to the table. I'm sorry.   I wasn't trying. I was Yeah, we're terrible.  And it's not the people, it's the process,   right? The process is what that's what you  got to look at. Is it a people problem or   is it a process problem? We're solving for process  problems. You're solving for process problems, but   when you have a problem person in the system that  points out where things can go haywire. It does.   It brings the emotional component. Well, it's not  even emotion. It's just like checks and balances.   you you want to give leeway for good ideas to get  done efficiently with input from all but there   also has to be hey this person's gone crazy we've  got to have a process to check it I mean that's   just but as an advisory board we we are policy  we're not operational at all that's that side of  

the table so when we're think about things that we  might want to change in the charter oper operation   doesn't doesn't come into it at all really. It's  just the policy of it. We're not going to tell the   water department how to collect utility bills.  That's not part of our venue. So, we have to be   very This is a policy document, not an operational  document. Yeah, but the policy could be that the   water department is separate from XYZ. Well, you  could, but that's that's a policy decision. That   doesn't have anything to do with operational Yeah.  And you could debate back in the 60s that the   clerk being over finance and water and department  was scalable then but no longer today. And   should we policy change? Same way with the city  manager position. Not that I'm saying Jonathan's   overwhelmed but he does a great job on social  media. So Mr. Mr. Chairman, I liked your idea   a while ago that at the fourth we come prepared  to talk about the really the general charter and   that I would recommend make a recommendation,  Mr. Chairman, that you kind of come up with the   buckets and how that we need to put the charter in  buckets and then we can go from there and put that   bucket list in with a timeline list so that we  can keep moving. Yeah. I mean, I was l get bogged   down. Yeah, I was literally about to say I I feel  like we're on agenda item 12, preparation for the   next meeting. Is there anything else anybody else  wants to share as far as like to get ready for   that meeting or any outcomes that you're looking  for from that meeting besides let's have some good   discussions and walk out with a real solid plan  of attack on the fourth with how we're going to   get this done. As you're asking for a chairman  to do that, I think all of us should think too   along the same idea so that we come prepared  to understand your bucket because we've Yeah,   I'd like to get that to you sooner rather than  later. like don't I'm not going to send it to   you on the night before the meeting. That's not  helpful because my understanding is I can send it  

to you guys. You can look at it. We can email we  can we can Yeah. That way we're walking in with a   fairly decent plan. I I would say as chairman you  kind of direct that meeting in the bucket list,   get it to staff, they get it to us and then  you know and if we have any ideas we do the   same thing. Yeah. I mean as I know you've gone to  a bunch of meetings and I think all of y'all have   when when you get these board meeting packages at  the 11th hour it doesn't help out. So that's why   I want to get it to you soon. Yeah. So the three  of us, Mr. Chairman, we we will work together, but   Jan's office will post the we'll do an agenda for  every meeting. Yeah. And we'll we'll want to post   it about a week out. So just keep that in mind. So  one more question. Is anybody contemplating having   a town hall meeting before we meet? I feel like  we should meet first to kind of get our footing   and then I would be more prepared to have a town.  I mean, I don't want to leave the community out,   but I feel like I'm just like you. Okay, let's get  our bearings first, but I don't know how as a male   I don't know. I'm not, but I'm not either. Yeah.  I feel like we need to kind of get our footing and   then, you know, listeners. I think we're way  too early in the process for public. I mean,   for a town meeting type. I just want to make sure  I was We don't know what we're talking about yet. Okay, we have a plan for the fourth um   audience participation. Anybody  know? Alvin left. Our audience. He sat through everything that the meeting's  going to be shorter because Alvin um it's   not on the agenda. Is there anything  else worth discussing that you want   to get off on your mind off your chest?  Anything that that type of stuff? Sure.   How do you if I imagine you as the chairperson  are we going to have if there is audience  

participation as this process unfolds is there  going to be similar to the city commission   audience participation to agenda items only. I  think it's important that we hash that out now so   that we don't there's not a perception that we're  doing it differently later because of specifics   for different people. Yeah, it's here. Let's No,  it should be only related to the charter. Period.   Yeah. And where my mind went, what if we're  discussing police and they want to bring up   utilities? Yeah. Okay. Agenda items only. That's  fair. I my feeling is um it should normally stick   to the agenda items, but honestly, not everybody  has access. I mean the issues of driving,   babysitting, all sorts of limitations. If someone  from the public wants to share something within a   certain amount of time, you say agenda items first  and if there's time left over, I think we should   just listen. So Brent, I don't want to deflect  your question. Can this be like a bridge we cross   when we get there? I mean, I don't even know if  we're going to get any audience participation   or if they're going to go off topic. I I don't  know. Um, is that something else you might want   to consider too is that the commission limits it  to three minutes. So, I don't know if you want   to put a limit on their comments or but something  to consider when you make the decision on how you   want to handle audience participation that would  be consistent with the rules of procedure so that   you don't have one person, you know, kind of get  up there and dominate it and it prevents you as   chairman from having to until that three minutes  is up. You're going to have that expectation. And   I want to reiterate this this meeting room  is probably just for this one in September   because of the flooding issue. We do hope to be  back downstairs in room 10 starting in October,   maybe November, but we're fingers crossed, right  Sean? By by October. So that's it be a little bit   I think it'll be a little bit less of like a board  meeting like this. It's more like a community feel  

set up more like, you know, it'll be a little  bit more conducive to I think what you guys are   looking for with Are you concerned with citizens  coming in and kind of almost like filibustering   the meetings? And yes, I do have that because  I I go to the commission meetings and I've seen   it and I've seen if it's not clear from our  seat from day one, then that lack of clarity   is going to bring an erosion of trust. Right? If  we're clear from day one that hey we encourage   audience participation at this meeting because  this is a decision-based meeting right it's very   similar to a commission meeting on agenda items  but we are all available for anything outside   of that outside of this structure and I think it  promotes consistency within the current commission   structure and it spills over into this board  as a suggestion just to kind of move it along   Technically right now uh that you know the mayor  runs the meeting. So the chairman will run the   meeting. Uh the mayor has indicated that his  desire is that only uh discussion on agenda   items would be allowed during the meeting but he  hasn't implemented that yet. Okay. I think it it's   next meeting or the meeting after. He wanted  to have two town halls first. Yeah. So then,   but the city commission if they decide ah let's  let's let people talk about whatever they want   to talk about because it's just makes more sense,  they can have a vote and then they vote and the   majority prevails and then they can uh decide  to change what the mayor would like to do. So,   the mayor has the authority to run the meeting  until the commission has a suggestion and there's   a motion in a second and a vote. So, we could just  leave it up to the chairman for now to run the  

meeting and then see and then go from there. Is  that fair? Well, I I I think it's something Let's   have it on the agenda for the next uh meeting  if that's something like a public participation   policy. And as we work together, I I'll preface  this whole thing. I am good or bad about I will   say my mind and then if I get outvoted I get  outvoted and we'll go hug it out and and it's   perfectly fine. I hear what Brandon's saying. My  thought process was let's not announce a policy   until it becomes a problem that if I think  we're going to have more issues soliciting   uh citizen feedback rather than like people  taking over our meetings. And so that's why   I was like we'll cross the bridge when we get  there. Your point is if we did get to that point,   it looks weak and that we don't have something in  place ahead of time and then it kind of erodess   the credibility of the committee. Like I I get  that like I I don't we'll see. So I'm kind of   curious take is that do we put something in place  first and we'll do it at the next meeting. Do we   put something in place first in anticipation that  that could be a problem or is it if it becomes a   problem we'll do something about it? Cecil, do you  I think we should have some general guidelines.   Okay. I I hear what you're saying. I I think that  is wise because you don't want to be situational.   You know, someone got in your face and so he  should like I like what he says. Let him keep   talking. I don't like that. Yeah. We should have  a policy in place, but we should be reasonable.   There there could be people who just this is  the only time they could come and we shouldn't   shut them down because finances and disabilities  and all sorts of things are impactful that maybe   someone gave them a ride. They couldn't get a ride  the next time. People are like that but they have   a good idea. So we should be sensitive to it.  But I think a general policy is planned ahead   is what Brandon is saying and I'm all for that.  JP, I I I I like the general guidelines that we  

have the commission meetings now about keeping two  agenda items and limiting time to a certain like   3 minutes kind of keeps uniformity with what the  city's doing. Yeah. We we are not the commission.   We're an advisory board. We shouldn't talk about  anything else except for the charter. And I I   don't want somebody cuz you have those people in  society that want to come and speak about whatever   they want to speak about. This is not that for.  Yeah, 100% agree on that. And then would it be   even but we're only talking about law enforcement  today or we're only talking about the clerk. Okay.   Okay. Correct. Then can we have that we have for  the city and then you can make the changes next   meeting and then we'll adopt whatever the changes  are. Let's put that on the top of the agenda for   the next so we can go ahead and get that knocked  out before refer to it as the rules of procedure.   Yeah. Cool. Do that. I just a quick question. The  actual drafting of the charter, is that something   that we do or is that something that you all do?  Well, it's collaborative, but we're staff. So,   I mean, typically with the city commission, I  mean, we staff does the drafting. They look at it.   Of course, some of them do their draft their own,  which is fine, but they'll but typically um you'll   you'll come in with any changes you have and uh  and then we'll turn it around and send it to you. go back to when you first told the meeting all  the different ordinances and you filtered a lot   of that stuff out, right? And I'm with Cecil on  cleaning it up so that it's presentable today.   There's one document. It's clean. It's clear.  And it's kind is that that's the direction we   all agree we're going to be moving this and really  cleaning it up, which is going to impact how it   makes its way to the ballot whenever it makes  its way to the ballot. What? Excuse based on  

Cecilele's comments. I was going to chat with  Caroline about some of those sections that are   gone to try to put them back in just so you get  the whole context. So just for purposes of having   a big picture. So JP brought up a great point just  sort of the the dynamics of this. Let's just say   whenever for the state argument first meeting  we're talking about city commission and then   as a advisory board we say hey we we we want it to  look more like this then you guys go back to draft   it and then I guess we review it in the interim  or we come back to the next meeting and we have a   draft that we can all discuss and then we go back  and draft it some more um what I envision is that   there would be we we would we can distribute ute  to everyone. Um, obviously whatever the draft is,   you can communicate with me with any changes that  you want. Um, I can then turn around and do a   second draft. But what I think the key is it needs  to go through staff rather than going back and   forth directly to the city commissioners. I mean  to the uh to the uh com uh advisory board members.   But no, we don't have to every month wait for  another month to have but you can send things to   me. It would be about the other way around. It'll  take forever. Exactly. And my thought process   there is just as we discuss these topics, do we  want to discuss the topic, draft the changes of   the charter before we move on to the next topic?  And that's we can talk about that next time,   but I know in this one we're going to discuss each  one and then prepare sort of our reports, but what   do we want to go drafting the changes as we go?  I think we should change. That's that was my   question about how that works. While you remember  the conversation, right? So if we have our first  

meeting or the you know the second meeting, we  actually talk about the way government's going   to work. Do we want to work on that draft piece  first before we move on to the other stuff? That's   just a procedural thought. Um I may I add to that  since you're on that topic. Um of course every   charter review uh board does things differently.  There's no one way to do it, but I've seen many   of them and I've reviewed many of them and they  will typically um um decide on an amendment that   they want to recommend. They'll vote on it at that  time and then set that aside, move on. And every   time they decide on an amendment, they'll vote  on on each one individually, but then go back   and review them because as they move through, then  they might revisit that and at the end when the   report is compiled, then they as a whole vote on  the entire report. I don't know if that helps you.   It does. And and my thinking there too is that  then we can get public comment on something that   we've actually suggested rather than an abstract  question. So we can work on the amendment to the   first piece, ask for public comment so that they  can come to the next meeting or share with us or   that way if there's somewhat of a process and we  integrate. But I think everyone hears voice today   including the community somehow but they're  actually commenting on something that we've   suggested not abstract ideas about utilities.  That's a good idea. That's just a excuse me. I   think the key that Caroline said is you can change  your mind. You can go back at the end and she   could say things are interconnected. So, right.  So, we can allow the public comment till and then   go back. I had thought about that. There's  probably some stuff that will come up months   later. Oh, wait a second. If we do this, we got  to go do a call back to month whatever. Yeah. So,   you could make a recommendation, vote on it, and  decide, yes, we want to recommend this. But at the   end, you might go, "Oh, maybe not. Now, now we're  now we don't want to do that." and remove it. And  

I think you'll find that, you know, there'll be  times of casual conversation kind of like this,   but then there's going to be like very formal  parts of this process, too, where staff will say,   "Hey, we need to make sure there's a consensus  here, not just, oh yeah, we we kind of sense   that like you guys will have to you'll be, you  know, motion second vote and and let the trips   fall where they may." So that we are carrying  forward recommendations to the commission in a   very formal fashion with a clear documentation.  This is what the commission or the committee   felt. Can I say one thing in conclusion maybe and  and the chairman alluded to it while ago. We are   an advisory board. If my if I don't get my way,  it's okay. I'm moving with the board. You know,   there again, you throw away your personality.  We have the power as an advisory board, not as   individuals. So, if something comes along and I'm  not really in favor of it and y'all vote for it,   we're going ahead and I'm on your team and and  that's the way advisory boards and boards should   work. Right. I've I've also taken uh and I've  had the opportunity to review a charter which   my lead business we would review from time to  time different issues usually redistricting.   Um it gives a a level of honesty if there is  a minority viewpoint. You know I strongly feel   this way and we should be encouraged if you  do strongly feel as a minority viewpoint but   then as you say the majority rules this is how I  feel. I was overruled. I'm going to support the   majority. But just when you look at the work that  people do and you see that uh respectful division,   it actually in encourages more understanding of  the community because they know all sides were  

heard versus just, you know, everybody said the  same thing. And those situations where there's a   reason for a division. Yeah. You know, if I saw  that, that actually gave me more confidence. It   was fully discussed and it just went that way  and we're a democracy and we're going that way.   A lot. Awesome. Thank you. Move we adjourn.  Yeah. I was about to say entertain a motion   to adjourn. Ron second. All right. I know that's a  non debatable thing. So all in favor I Thank you.