Advisory Plan Commission - Regular Meeting

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Good evening. Welcome to the town of Avon advisory plan commission meeting. If you are interested in having a copy of the agenda, they are available on the tables to the right of the audience. We will be conducting business as outlined on the agenda. From time to time, the board may deviate from the agenda. As president of this body, I will inform those in attendance of any deviations. This meeting is being recorded for the public record. Because of this, we request that personal conversations are kept to a minimum and that all cell phones are set to vibrate. Any phone calls should be taken outside of the chambers. If you are interested in commenting during the public hearing portion of the commission's deliberations, please sign up on the sheets located on the tables to the right of the audience. When your name is called, please step forward to the podium and state your name and address for the record. Please address your comments to the board and not to staff or the or the petitioner. Your comments should relate directly to the case at hand. During the conduct of the public hearing portion of the commission's deliberations, the petitioner will have 10 minutes to present their case to the commission. Reministrators will have 10 minutes to present objections to the petition and persons in support of the petition other than the petitioner will have 10 minutes to present support for the petition. Finally, the petitioner will close the public hearing portion of the presentation with a fiveminute rebuttal period. Once the public hearing is closed, no additional testimony will be heard unless it is solicited by members of the commission during the question and answer phase of the commission's deliberations. Subdivision plat and development plan petitions are ministerial requests, meaning that if the proposal meets the requirements set forth in the town's development ordinances, the plan

commission must approve the request. In the interest of transparency, state law requires that the plan commission hold a public hearing, even if the development proposal must be approved. Responses to public comments and questions may be given once the public hearing portion is closed. We do understand that there may be several persons who wish to speak. In order to keep the meeting running in a timely fashion, we request that you not repeat previous comments. Thank you for your assistance in facilitating a respectful, fair, and timely meeting. Again, welcome to our meeting and please stand for the pledge.

I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Um, we can now do a roll call. Jennifer Spencer here. Andrew Rockebrand, present. Bill Reid, here. Dave Kaufman. Dave Kaufman is absent. Katherine Ransburg, present. Paul Guggenberger, here. Greg Zusen, present.

And we have a quorum. We now move on to the approval of the July meeting minutes. Has everyone had an opportunity to review them? And are there any questions or suggested edits or changes? If not, we'll take a motion for approval of the July meeting minutes. I'll go ahead and make that motion to approve the July 28th, 2025 meeting minutes as a second. Having had a motion and a second, we'll now take a vote. All in favor say I. I.

Those opposed? Nay. Motion carries. With a unanimous approval, the meeting minutes are approved. We now move on to the public comment section. This is the opportunity at which those of you who are here tonight may speak about any item that is not already on the agenda. If it is already on the agenda, please wait for that time to come forward. But if there's something else you'd like to speak about, this is your opportunity to do so. Is there anybody who'd like to speak to the commission tonight? Having had nobody come forward, the public comment section is now closed. Request for continuences or agenda modifications. There are none. According to staff, we have no old business. And we now move on to new business that we're all very excited about, which is the town of Avon comprehensive plan update. [Music] So, we have uh Rachel here from HWC back. Um, you heard the presentation from her at your special meeting on July 14th. Um, she's back to do the official presentation or public hearing for you tonight. I just wanted to touch on a few things because the comp plan adoption process is a little bit different than a zoning amendment. So, I just wanted to make sure y'all understood the state statute on how the process works. Um so today, August 25th, um at the end of this meeting, hopefully you will make a recommendation on the comprehensive plan to the town council. Um prior to tonight's hearing, we published in the newspaper as required by statute. We also had a copy of the comp plan at the front counter for anyone to take a look at, and we also

referenced the uh website for people to to review the plan. Um once you make a recommendation tonight, the secretary of the plan commission um which is me would certify it to the town council. The council will consider a resolution, not an ordinance, but a resolution to approve the plan. The council has the option to approve it, reject it, or amend the plan. Um if they reject it or make amendments to it, the council then sends it back to the commission. The commission has 60 days to consider what the town council wanted as amendments. Um the commission can approve the amendments that were suggested by council and if that's if they do approve them then the um comprehensive plan stands as approved once the commission sees it the second time. Um if the council or if the commission disapproves or doesn't like the amendments the town council um sent back or sent to the commission um what would happen is the uh town council would see the the plan again and then if they wanted to continue on with their proposed amendments they would adopt a second resolution and then the plan would become official. Uh the plan is tenatively scheduled to be on town council's agenda on September 11th. And again, that's tenative. And if it's approved, the plan would be uh recorded in the Hendricks County Recorders Office per state statute. So I just that's the overall procedure for the plan adoption process. I wanted to make sure you were aware of it. Do you have any questions on process before we go to Rachel? [Music]

There we go. Much better. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Linda.

Okay. Excellent. Uh, my name is Rachel Christensen and I think last time I gave my address and I was prepared this time. So, I'm with HWC Engineering at 135 North Pennsylvania Street in Indianapolis. Um, thank you so much for having me tonight. Excited to be here at one of the adoption meetings for the comprehensive plan. Uh, this is one that the plan commission and the steering committee have been working on for quite some time now. Um, it's a robust planning document and we're just really excited to be at this point where we are wrapping things up. Um, so tonight I'm just going to do a very brief comp plan overview. um go over the planning process and the timeline, talk about the public engagement that has been received throughout the planning process, give you a very brief plan summary, and then just to reiterate that plan, uh the pathway to adoption. Um, we've gone over some of this before, so this is a very condensed version of what we did at the public presentation last month, but a comprehensive plan is this long range uh guide for community growth, development, and investment. It's used by leaders, staff, organizations, property owners, etc. when making decisions about, you know, if they want to invest in in Avon. Legal requirements. Um there has to be objectives for future development within the plan. A policy for land use development and a policy for the development of public ways, lands and public utilities. So that would be your your roads and your parks and any other property that the the town owns. Um goals of the plan, we wanted to understand current conditions. We wanted to set clear vision and goals for the future and then identify actionable projects to implement the vision. So, it's not just a here's some pretty goals and objectives. We wanted to actually dig in and say this is how we're going to make this happen in the future. We had four key phases to the planning process. The first one was casting that

vision. We formed our steering committee. Um, we did some data collection and demographic collection and we kicked off that first steering committee meeting. Um, as we rolled into phase two, this was really the the biggest piece where we had a lot of public engagement happening there. Um we had a we have a website that's still up right now. Uh we did a public survey, a workshop, um focus groups and stakeholder meetings. There was yard signs out around town to help spread the words. Spread the word. Uh the third phase we really uh that was the biggest piece of this process was forming the plan. So we that's when we started putting the document together. We had a big ideas openhouse where we touched base with the public again to make sure that we were headed in the right direction. And then now we're in this fourth phase of the practical action steps. So we developed an action plan. Uh we wrapped up our steering committee meetings and we had a public draft that actually went out to the public for review. The public engagement our online you guys did wonderful with public engagement here in Avon. We had 607 responses to the online survey. Uh the public workshop had about 16 participants. uh 27 participated in focus group discussions and we had an excellent turnout at at a pop-up event where we had over 122 comments that were received. Um there was a vision statement that was developed as part of the plan and there were themes that came out of the public engagement piece. So obviously there are traffic and transportation challenges in Avon. There was a lot of talk about future growth and growth management, housing options, community identity and placemaking, economic development, uh parks, wreck and open space, and also govern governance and jurisdictional coordination. There was a lot of talk about Swiss cheese. We did develop a new future land use map

and this future land use map looks at areas that even go outside of Avon's current town boundaries. Um and this was just in order to help um you know in the future if any of these areas are annexed by the town uh the the town does have you know some framework on what that might look like. There were seven districts six districts that were identified in this plan and four of them we really took a deeper dive into. So the six districts we they were named the Riverwalk district, Greenway District North, Greenway District South, the Midtown District, the Revitalization District, and the Live Work District. And the three the four that are highlighted were ones that we did the deeper dive into. And we did design principles. We have a conceptual plan. Um there's more of a description of what that district is. And we also included some precedent imagery of what those districts could look like in the future. and those districts are highlighted on this map. So now we are in this um end of the process the pathway to adoption. Um we did our public presentation on July 14th and that plan has been available online since then at plan planavvon.com. Uh we did request that any feedback from the commission or from the public uh to be sent to us by August 1st. We did receive a couple things that we did integrate into the plan. Um and that draft plan has been prepared for you tonight for your consideration. Um which brings us to August 25th. Um and as Linda explained, the plan commission will consider a certified recommendation to the town council. Um and then this is tenatively scheduled to go to the town council. If you guys make a recommendation tonight, it would tentatively go to that September 11th uh town council uh town council meeting. Um

I would again do a brief a very brief presentation there. Um answer any questions that the council may have and then they would uh take that under consideration on that resolution. So with that, if there's any questions, um I'm happy to answer those. And if there are none, that's okay, too. I just want to say thank you to your and your uh company for all the work that you put into this and for working with us as diligently and and especially listening to the concerns of the steering committee and the plan commission and incorporating that into this final product. So, thank you for that.

Yep. You guys have been wonderful to work with. So, thank you. We don't hear that very often. I know your company's been doing some other work with other municipalities within Hendrickx County. How does this plan compare? Are there any similarities?

Well, every plan is unique, of course, and we try to make sure that we are responding to the needs in your community. But it was really great that there had been other plans done recently. You know, Hendricks County comp plan. Um Danville had updated their comprehensive plan not too many years ago. So, we were able to look at, you know, what they were proposing for future land use and then make sure that we were making informed decisions here in Avon um with those plans that were already in place. Um you guys do have your own challenges of course um you know the jurisdiction of your community with it being I think you know the youngest community that I've worked with um and having you know those gaps and holes in the the town boundaries um is a challenge. I think US 36 is, you know, one of your primary challenges as well. And then just looking at your housing opportunities. I wouldn't say the housing is unique because everyone is really in the state of Indiana is struggling with this housing issue right now. Um, but everyone struggles in their own unique way. So, I think all of those things we really tried to address specifically for Avon. Um, but keeping in consideration what else was going on in Hendrickx County. I know one of the concerns I had when we started this was our existing zonings and the loopholes within those zonings.

Do you feel as if we've addressed those or and this is really for Paul and Linda as well? Do you want to take this one? Um by loopholes you mean the enhanced standards and the R2? I I think that was addressed by our ordinance change. And then what we will do is once this is adopted, take the recommendations in here and go back to the UDO and and really craft it how we want it going forward. But the loophole was certainly closed back when we made the ordinance change.

And then are we revisiting our ordinances now then? So, the next the next ordinance overhaul that's going to be coming to you relatively soon, um, is more to make corrections and updates, not so much policy changes as a lot of corrections. Some changes, yes, you know, especially things we found that were problematic, um, that didn't meet current standards or something like that. But we're going to do a large overhaul and update the whole thing. and then we're going to go back after this is adopted and really look at policy changes for

I think that's the a challenge that you always have when you have when you've updated a large body of work and then when you start applying it to real life and you realize oops we didn't anticipate that and then it needs to be tweaked and um I'm looking forward to seeing what tweaks you're recommending so there's a lot of them so yeah we want to get all those tweaks in and passed and get the ordinance cleaned up, then start working on what changes do we really want to see.

I think then lastly, we have a lot of I call it pocket density land use maps, 7 acre, 10 acre parcels. Do we address that in this new comprehensive plan? Well, all the pieces of land have been addressed of what what the best via the future land use map what the best land use and density would be based on where they are and what access they have to surrounding, you know, trails or schools or that sort of thing.

Yeah, it it's it will give a lot more guidance um compared to the previous future land use map that was that is actually in place right now. So once this is adopted, there will be a more comprehensive future land use map that will really help staff out when you are you are getting development petitions in.

Yeah, that was the one thing I was going to address is like the land use map, which I know land use is not a zoning map. So that's the one thing I think we got to remember and remind ourselves as well as the public, but we no longer have those dots as I called them. We got land use across Avon and future potential future Avon. So I really like that and I appreciate that the work that you and your team did to guide us through those discussions because I know we kept going to zoning then come back to land use and there's difference of opinion on land uses. So I think the end result gives us something that we can work with and I know it's kind of guiding um probably some of the ordinance changes too that we want to see. So again I and I want to echo what Katherine said. I think you and your team did a great job of working with us to get us to this point. So, thank you for that.

I appreciate that. And I've said this before on along the way in this, but the steering committee that we had, we did have some really tough conversations and the land use map was one of them where we went back and forth in a couple meetings. We had a special land use workshop where we just focused on that and then we had at least two steering committee meetings where we revisited that land use map to make sure we were doing I don't want to say the right thing but we were in agreeance maybe on how we moved forward and um you know there were some people that weren't 100% happy and I think that's probably the way that it should be because everyone has their perspective and their lens that they were bringing to the table and I think though everyone was so respectful um that was something that I was super impressed with on the steering committee was just that the conversations were very productive. They were very respectful and I think at the end of the day everyone walked away and said I think this was the best that we could do.

What is it they say that if nobody's happy then it's probably the right thing to do. Right. So now that the plan is complete, do you see any major policy shift within the town since the last um plan was developed? like are we are we are we completely changing you know turning the Titanic or are we kind of just heading down a similar direction that the previous planet had in place.

I think I would maybe characterize it as you're growing up and becoming more refined. Um I wouldn't say that you're completely changing a pathway but I think there's lessons that you guys have all learned in your 30 years here. And I think that it's a it's a you're you're in your 30s, right? So, um, no, not a I wouldn't say a substantial change, but you are getting more refined as as you're aging. So, how do you mean refined? I

refined. Well, I mean, I think looking at that future land use map, you know, I think the intention of what that future land use map was supposed to be was a a great idea, but maybe in practice it didn't work out as well. And I think looking at, you know, recognizing that you only have so much land available in Avon and really being super mindful of what um how to use that land with the best and highest use and making sure that it's the best and highest use, but it is appropriate for Avon. I think that was a lens that or a voice I heard a lot from the steering committee. Um, so I think being able to recognize that, you know, there are limited resources and being able to still be Avon and and hit those things that characterize Avon um I think is are coming out in this plan.

Okay. One thing in our discussion I remember is that you had pointed out that if we want to work with entities like the state having a plan helps in those discussions because they know we have something concrete that we're working from not just a off the top of our head. Do you feel like this gives us what we need to work with the state if we want to do something on 36 or is it the beginning of what we need to work with the state and we still need to refine more of what we want like third if that's a corridor that we want to enhance and need the state's help. Do we still have work to do there yet? I think this is a great foundation for that and I think anytime that you start you know this is a a a broader brush stroke and anytime that you want to zero in even more there there can always be more refinement to be done. So I think this is a substantial step in the right direction from where what you guys had in the past and I think it will be a great tool for you guys to be able to take to INDOT and say you know this is the public engagement that we had this is what we heard and this is what our community wants to see. So yes.

Okay. Thank you. Mhm.

Are there any more questions for petitioner? Not sure if this is a petitioner. If not, is there anybody sitting in the audience tonight who'd like to come up and speak to this? Is anybody signed up to speak? No one has signed up to speak, so there's no need for rebuttal. So the public hearing portion of this agenda item is closed. Thank you. Thank you.

Discussion. So there are a lot of there are a lot of recommendations in this plan. Pages and pages of recommendations. Um how is Avon going to try and get through all that?

I think we get I think we get through it just like we get through everything else. One piece at a time, you know, as stuff is presented to us. I mean, it's not up to us to be making decisions for the town. we just make recommendations and the town council uh does the approval does the actual approval process. But I think as the town and the people we're trying we're working with our business owners and other you know vested groups come forward and want to do things. Hopefully, they will look at this plan and embrace it themselves and and we'll all be working together as partners to see this plan become real. That's my opinion. So,

so and I think it's a good question and and look to staff on helping us out there because it, you know, it does speak to here are the action items, now what? And hey, I' I'd rather not be a commission that that waits for to be told by a staff what we need that we should be working with you and also point out what what needs to be done. So, what are your thoughts on taking action on this?

So, I agree with with Andrew that there are a lot of recommendations in this plan and clearly we're not going to get through them all. I I think what planning staff is excited about is the way the land use map came out and what how we'll use it for the zoning cases, but the comprehensive plan is so much bigger. It has so many more re recommendations than just zoning cases and the UDO. So I I think our staff needs to be challenged to once this is adopted start looking at it and prioritizing and maybe we need to come to the plan commission saying this these are what our ideal first projects would be and and and take it from there. We would

maybe go to DPW and say this these are the transportation issues or have a meeting with the state like just start getting the ball rolling on our top you know few and maybe we'll come back to you and say this is how they were prioritized. How do you want to prioritize them and just start checking some off and and get the ball rolling on them and not just use it for zoning purposes? One of the things I like about this is that it's visionary in nature in addition to being practical. It encourages us to think long term and to think outside the box. And I think if we're going to be the kind of community I know that we all want Avon to be, we need to we need to engage in that kind of thinking. Not just um does this do we reszone this particular parcel for this particular purpose or you know do an approval of a new neighborhood. I think being visionary and this encourages us to do that and I think that's wonderful. I love that. You know, one thing that I'd ask Greg, and I I'm sure he's already thinking about this, but looking to the council, um, on as they go through this, are there any priorities that have been discussed? I know like we've talked about the Ronald Reagan corridor. Um, and I think work is going on there, but that that's one of the areas that we're addressing. So, I' I'd look for the council provide some direction. I'd ask you take that to the council and help with the guidance on that. Well, before your question, I was going to say we address those four districts and certainly the live work district which is along the Ronald Ronald Reagan corridor is important and I think we have the the two players there that are interested in bringing that into a reality. Uh we've got the the Midtown district over here at Avon Avenue and

36, you know. So I I think we've identified areas. Now I think what we need to also do is let the developers, the petitioners when they come through, this is what we'd like to see here. Bring something that we want to see here, not what you want to see here. And I think that's the message that this is going to tell people. And I think if you look at page 161, it is what it kind of answers your question, Andrew, a little bit. It really says you know the comprehensive plan the vision statement is like a jumping off point because from that base once adopted uh arises economic development plans, transportation plans, uh strategic all kinds of strategic plans. uh the process never really ends, but this an adoption of a new conference plan will kind of be a reset. And it says here that that you the commission and the council and staff then should work together to develop specific strategies to implement the plan. So often I always think about the conference, a plan doesn't provide the answers, it provides the beginning point and then everybody goes to work. And we've seen this work in the past. Uh and sometimes you don't even your annexation plan for example that the town pushes out economic development plan people forget that this then helps John Taylor and the administrative team know oh okay now I see where they want what that's our vision how can I you know act consistently with that so it goes well beyond you might think of land use and transportation be the first obvious ones but it goes well beyond that and then and every round of this every time the comprehensive plan is changed then then it gets busy that's how I would say it

then it gets really busy because this is a jumping off point and it generates all of these uh strate strategic plans is what I would call them in each specific area so this this reset kind of the comprehensive plan is a reset allows the uh the three three most important groups at least I say but then also a chance to interact with your RDC gets to see this and it's they're supposed to review it. Your RDC in training, we specifically tell them, they're supposed to know what this is. Uh your BZA, your RDA, your EDC, all these different organizations, all the staff, touches all the staff, parks, you know, it touches every department. And so, but they need to know where to go and the comprehensive plan points them in a direction. how it specifically gets done, implemented, how it's measured, whether it's successful or not, all that will come later. But that's what this is. That's why the conference of plan doesn't talk so much about what happens next because they it really takes the form of action plans, funding, ordinances, resolutions, u budgetary decisions, staffing decisions, uh where the town council puts its resources. Uh so that's the way I would think about this. This is the This is the uh dive diving board. We're going to go into the water. We're just We're going to dive off of this into the cold cold water. See how it goes.

Hopefully, there is one. Well, and and that's where I I would like to see maybe the town council work through all of the the three bullet priority ones. And not assign owners, but you know, this group would typically handle 3.1 and 4.2 and all those kind of things to kind of assign responsibilities and then each each department all the departments within the town and the community can work through their their zones and that way you're going to actually get progress. If everybody says, "Oh, look, there's a plan." Oh, yeah. We need to go check it per check, go check it annually and see if we're doing anything to it, then it's not going to ever come to fruition.

Well, one of the things that for our next subject that we're on the agenda talk about, so as a commission, we could create subcommittees to explore anything that we feel needs to be done. So, it'd be the, you know, if the council or the staff's not willing to do it, we could take action and form a committee to to do that. And and I don't know if that's the right thing or not to do, but it's one of those where again, you know, having served on the commission of so long that well, let's be active as opposed to let's not just act on what's on the agenda. Should we be taking action on some of these? And the thing that hit me in our discussion was the Swiss cheese comment that Rachel made of Avon and the identity. It's like people don't know if they're in Avon or not in Avon because we have these pockets. And I think that is a priority that we need to figure out how to eliminate the pockets. And it's it's not as easy as annexation because there's other considerations and costs that go with that. But, you know, I I would say unification or merger or whatever the talks that stalled years ago with the township

consolidation

need the Yeah. whatever is the right way approach because there's costs and issues around that but to get that done because our plan encompasses Washington township so we need the township as partners and all the services that they provide and from a business aspect I think it would become more efficient if we had a single governing body for that area. So, you know, to me that would be one of the priorities even more so than I know the work that's going on uh now with annexation. I think that's something that the town really needs to address and something that we as a commission look how can we help with that. [Music]

Any further discussion or should we go ahead and take a vote? Does anyone want to make a motion? I'll make a motion. Okay. I move that we forward an approval recommendation to the Avon Town Council of CPA2-01 Plan Avon, an update to the town's comprehensive plan to help guide future growth and development in the town since it does appropriately lay out the town's development goals and objectives and is consistent with the town's vision for public health, safety, and general welfare. I'll second. Having heard a motion in a second, we'll now take a vote. Guggenberger. Four. Susan. Four.

Spencer. Four. Walkerbrand. Four. Reed. Four. Ransburg. Four. Motion carries. And the Avon 2025 comprehensive plan is now going to be forwarded to the town for approval. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, we now move on to review of the 2025 rules of procedure.

Huh?

All right. So, last month, uh, Mr. Griezenberger talked about the, um, the rules procedure and that some of you hadn't seen a copy. So, we want to make sure that we got out the most recent copy and then we proposed some changes based on our um applying the rules of procedure to your activities and um some issues we've had and so now you've all had a chance to read it. Has everybody read it? Um the only change that since you've um received this that uh Mr. Taylor said would need to be um amended was on page 11 section five at the bottom regarding continuences. The part we put in green would have to be struck that it does have to be a a vote of the majority of the commission not the commissioners present. It has to be a majority of the commission as a whole, all seven of you, not a majority of those present. So, just take out the word present or strike the whole thing. We'll figure something out. But that's the only change since you've read it or you've received it.

So, if there are five of us here, four need to vote. Yes. For it. Okay. Yes. And that's with any decision. Okay.

That you make. Um, first thing I did was make edit changes to the if anybody had the old copy, the um, formatting of it was was not very good. So, I changed the formatting and then went through and made some pretty basic changes, you know, putting UDO instead of zoning ordinance, adding a few things from state code. Um, we talked about continuences all the time and not sure how many they get and how many they have a right to. So, that's all laid out in here. So, if you want to read that and have a discussion on it, that would be fine. Um, we wanted to note that the public gets to speak for three minutes, not two minutes, as we did our practice.

Yeah, I notic that, too. Um, what else am I missing, Paul? Um,

oh, the um development plan review DPRS um the rules didn't actually have them um noticing to surrounding property owners. Um they do do that now and your rules just didn't put in there that they had to do it. So, we added that in to conform with our practices. So, we can have a discussion on any further changes you want to see. I don't want to actually take a vote tonight. We would like to see how you feel about all this. See if you want any more changes, then clean it up and have it ready for file adoption.

Why? I have a few. You want to go through them? Okay. So, article 2, section one, um, I had a question here because it looks like the third sentence. These members must be elected officials, appointed officials, or employees of the town. That's talking about three members are appointed by the town council. So, I just don't I want to understand that sentence because it's like nobody's an elected official other than Greg. I don't is appointed officials how that is met by they're appointed by the town council. Okay. I didn't know if that was appointed to the town, not to

Yeah. For example, uh Bill Reed is on the redevelopment commission, so he counts as a noncitizen because of his appointment to the RDC. That's an example of what happens. that we have never had employees, but we usually have either someone um someone who's on another board of commission be appointed at like Greg's on the town council. You're on the BCA, but I'm the commission's appointee, so not the BCA to the commission. It doesn't matter. Okay, that makes you an appointee.

Okay. So, we've got four members of the plan commission who are also appointed people. Well, you're all appointed. Well, I mean, who are appointed officials because I'm also on the BCA and then Greg's on the town council and then Bill. So, does is that and Dave and Dave? Yeah. That's right. I forgot. Okay. So, but that's that's not an issue. your point. Okay. Okay. But it's four citizen members. This could be their only thing. Their only thing. So there doesn't have to be four.

Has to be four. And that means not just for us, but they can't serve. They cannot be an appointee or elected official county government or the state government. Applies to all, not just the town. So there have to be four. But we don't have four citizen. Yeah. You you've got four. David and you on the RDC. Is that right? That is right. And Greg is on the town council. So, who else is on whatever else? Those two are on BCA. We're both on the BCA. That's it. She's appointed. Um, you only have what? Two. Oh, we only have two citizen members. Yeah. Sorry. We only have two citizen members. Yeah. Everybody else

you count I think you on the BCA if that's your only other duty you have in the town you count as citizen members. Okay. If that's all you do if you if you know the role in that right you too Andrew Jennifer. Okay. Okay. Okay. But when we do the appointment when the when the town council does the appointments

they actually start with we we need to have somebody on the RDC who can be on the plane commission for that very reason. So, who who qualifies as an appointed official? If if Greg or I'm sorry, if Paul and I don't qualify because we're on the BCA, who who would qualify? Greg would because he's on the town council. He's elected, so he's different. But you're right. He's an elected official. Answer it this way. If you're appointed by the town council, you're appointed. You're appointed official. So, I was appointed by the town council.

Yeah. but not for something else. You were appointed as a citizen. Three government members for citizens. They point to three government members. They have to say, "Are they already a government appointee without being on the plan commission? Are they already?" Oh, okay. At the time that we were appointed, right? So, so when they when they appoint they do it actually very specifically they first appoint the RDC so that when they get back to Bill they can say he's already in the government. We just appointed him two minutes ago to the RDC. This literally way it works and

and he now counts as an appointed. Okay. Okay. But yeah, that's how it literally works. When Greg and in January when they make appointments that's what they have to do. who is already in the government is the way I would say it. So, is this something that um as council you make sure that we're meeting that requirement properly constituted? Good enough for me. Good enough. All right. Thank you. I'm going to rely on him to do because this is very confusing to me. Very good. That's good. This entire schedule of all the appointed officials and make sure they meet because every board of commission has its own statute. Yeah.

Which says who's who and on the um and the other thing is only citizen members of the plane commission can be on the BCA. Okay. Oh, didn't know that. Got another nuance we don't talk about much. This is like a game of Tetris. Well, thank thanks for explaining that. There you go. Star Trek. I just wanted to make sure I understood that. Um in the same article on section 4 page two it first sentence under a the appointing authority there is no mention of appointing authority at this point. So I assume back at the beginning the appointing authority is the town council. What section are you in? I'm sorry.

I'm in section four. It's on page two. Page two. Yes. Under removal says the appointing authority may remove and I was like there's no mention of appointing authority in our document prior to that mention. Yeah, there's a reason for that because for some of you the appointing authority is the town council president and for some of you it's the town council. We don't you don't have just one appointing authority. You have two. Okay. And you keep track of that. We keep track. Okay. The president appoints the three government officials. The town council appoints the four citizen members. Okay. Okay. Um,

so that's why we use that vanilla vague term because it's not the same. Okay, I'll go with that. Then in subsection B and a member who misses three consecutive meetings, is that it doesn't say excused or unexcused. Does that mean that it doesn't matter if it is excused or unexcused? Yeah, it it Well, this is just restating a statute, right? And so it's a may may be treated not a shall as a resignation not a is automatically it's a may. So it's it doesn't matter if it's excused or unexcused because I thought like if it's unexcu if it was excused we call and let people know that wouldn't count to this.

So if a if a member missed three meetings in a row and someone was concerned about it then they would talk to your if it's you Paul they would talk to your appointing authority. Okay. for you. That'd be the council and say, "Can somebody talk to Paul and see if he really wants to be on this thing? Otherwise, we need to replace him." But it's not a mandatory. It's not mandatory. Okay. Just a may and that's fine. And the reason it says that, Paul, is because you'll see later that otherwise removal can only be based upon cause.

Yeah. So, so you have four-year terms and you know you cannot be removed because the law the statute doesn't want you to be removed because the town council disagrees with how you decide things, right? So, you have that protection. But, uh the if you don't show up, then you're fair game, I guess, is what Okay. And I apologize the commission. I I have several things here, so jump in if you want to. We would be surprised if you didn't. In section five, um, this is a little thing, the second line where starts out of the commission common, the commission, I'm assuming the second commission ought to be capitalized, be correct.

Um, and then on filling vacancies, section seven, this is more of a comment. Is there any way to put a time limit on how that can be to take to fill the vacancy? because we've gone months with open seats and it sometimes feel like the council president isn't moving quick enough or trying to do it. Is there any statute or is that something that you we don't have any Well, I know in the past based on conversations I've had that it's it's not a matter of not trying. It's finding the specific person who meets all the requirements for that particular spot citizen or appointed or employee or

I understand that not affiliated or when we go six months plus to fill an open position it's like well there's nothing poking you. So if there was a you must do it per our procedures then you're trying harder. So, I'll just leave that as a a comment because I since you're looking that up, Dan, I don't know if that's something that we have any leg to stand on or is it even possible? Well, it's not um you can't adopt a rule of procedure that makes the town council or town council president do anything. I think your point is well taken that it should be as quick as possible.

Yeah, it should be. But you have to remember you would be trying to impose an obligation on on a on a different body. I don't think you can do that. The statute I wish the statute establish something but the the logical extension of this is let's say that the statute said they had 60 days to to fill a vacancy. What if they don't? Right? You can't make you can't scold the king is a little bit a little bit of the rule there. Yeah. Well, I would make it a financial thing, but I I'll leave that go move on my next comment. You're right. I wish it were different.

Okay. Article five. It's on page five, section three, conflict and abstension. The since the section is conflict and abstension, it seems like it only deals with conflict. I' I found nothing that talks about abstension. And I've always wondered, can we actually abstain a vote? Um, which I don't think is the right thing to do, but but there's no talk of abstension in this section. So, it seems like we're missing some information.

Yeah, we could add something. I think yeah, the the law says you can abstain. Uh we don't encourage it because it creates problems about getting that majority vote. Oh, but uh Linda, it seems to me we could add one that simply says a member has the right to seems to me if you are participating in discussions, you have to vote. You should not be allowed to abstain. And to me either either if you have a conflict and then you leave the room. So abstension shouldn't even be a thing. Either you participate in the conversation and you vote or you remove yourself from the conversation.

Do you not disagree with the case to say if you abstain, you're really voting no since it requires a majority vote on every action. If you abstain, you are actually voting no. But but again, I don't think it would be a problem. It's like having someone absent who doesn't vote like in Congress where they just don't vote or count it as absent even if they're sitting right there. But you could we could put in a deed that says a member has the right to abstain. That would be no seems to be no uh skin off anybody's nose. But well, I would like to see language added that says however an abstension shall be considered a no vote. Well, no, it's not considered a no vote. It has the effect.

It has the same effect. or maybe say that it has the same effect because it's just like if we don't like tonight Dave is not here and if we were, you know, down to a three and three and Dave is not here, it effectively has, like you said, has the same effect as a no vote. So the whatever the petition does is approved, but I wasn't denied either. And see, I don't like the abstensions either because in that case, if we had a full commission, but somebody abstains, now we can tie again. So it's like right so there's no way where an abstension would remove the number of possible votes.

Now in every vote you take even a a motion to approve your minutes you need five votes or four votes. You need four positive votes. You always need four votes. It doesn't matter what you're voting on. And so if someone abstains that the question isn't since it's not really democracy the statute controls it. It's just did we get four votes or not? So, if you have three people vote in favor, two vote against, and two abstensions, that's still not that's a no. I I I understand the maybe the symmetry that you're seeking,

but I wouldn't want it to say anything other than a member has the right to obstain. I I just don't want to uh it's not our job to characterize it. I'm just saying for your information, it has the effect of a no vote. Are we statutoily obligated to have a member has the right to sub to abstain in our pro in our procedures? The cases would say that you can't make someone vote. They can abstain if they would if they want to. Yeah. So, we do have to have the abstension language in there. Yeah.

The cases say yes. The cases say that you must allow a member to abstain if they if that's what they want. Otherwise, you can't make someone vote a certain way. You don't want that power, do you? Really? I'm fine with it.

So, I guess my comment is basically we need some language in there that and then the last one I have uh page 10 under I guess subsection H number one where it says uh the chairman probably I'll say the president shall entertain a motion to conclude the public hearing or conclude debate on the motion. We don't do that now and it seems like that's really overkill uh to have a motion to conclude public comment. Yeah, I would we we've never done that. We've always just said public hearing is now closed. Yeah, that that's why I think the language I would like the language

required language or can we remove it? I don't think it's required. We can have it match with their practices. Correct. They've never done it as long the last 20 years they've never done that. Um, and no, I don't believe it's required. We'll check that though to make sure because seems a lot odd that it's in there, but the only other thing made me think we don't I thought at one time our procedures talk about following Robert's rules of order or something and I I've tried that before many years ago. Yeah, there's a reason I'm not a parliamentarian.

Okay, that's all the comments I had. Is the word chairman then with president as well like in G above that?

Any other comments, questions for staff? Yeah, I noticed um article 8 section 6 page nine there's a notice for publication and requirement to publish in the local newspaper. Are there other communication tools that may be more effective or is there a reason that we're doing we only require um the only publication to be in the new in the local newspaper? because I don't know how many people still get the local newspaper.

So that's a state law. Okay. Has to be in the newspaper. So we have that in there according to state statute. It is read because people pull it from there and post it online, but we also post our agendas and everything online. So we meet the minimum statutes here, but we go above and beyond. And

okay, so that's a state statute. It can't there's no way to modify that. Well, you could you could have a rule that says we'll comply with state law and so many days before the meeting, we'll also have it on our own website. I think if you looked on there, how do you know how about how many it's it's up there well in advance and that's where that's where I see it. Uh is I you can and we're not required to make the staff report available by publication. I mean, if you go online, you can see everything. You guys can see, the public can see everything and it's done how long, how how much? One week. One week. So the day you get it, we put it on.

So I think we far exceed just by our practice we for many years we we far exceed the actual uh requirements, minimum requirements. Uh but um every year there is a movement, a push in the legislature to get rid of that. you have to publish notice in newspapers because it's thought to be less than a modern concept and to say that if the town uh publishes it on their website that's good enough for everyone and of course the newspaper industry fights that every year of course and that's why we have this uh ring of of days gone by I would say

it's it's it's kind of expensive for governments to do that but there there is a group I forget what they're called now. But there is some group out there who just thinks that the minute local governments don't have to publish things in the newspaper, everything's a secret. I think that may be an outofdate. I I think it's more a matter of you have a lot of especially your smaller papers would fold because they get so much of their income from that. Yeah. I'm just saying there's a non-media group though that argues against that that change because they think of it's a transparency issue. I find that there was

I find that surprising given the fact that you know you can go through you can get on the anybody's website some some plan planning uh groups you can look a month in advance and see their next agenda they as soon as they kind of formulate the agenda for September I've looked at some recently

you can find out what's on the agenda for September staff reports aren't there yet some of the underlying information so th that's changing a lot But um but we we are there just restating that. And then one of the interesting things about that, one of the debates has been um that some some jurisdictions play with the number of days it has to be published in advance because the state law is viewed as a minimum. And some people say, "I need I need 20 days before to have it published," or, "I need more time to get my notice in the mail." You hear all that. Um, I'm actually not I I'm actually not sure I believe that. To me, if you find out that something's going on next door and you've been on vacation and you only got four days, I suppose important to you, you'll be here.

Yeah. Or you'll or you'll find something. But that's what that is. I think I think you'll see a change in that in the next five years or so. So, is there any advantage to adding more of what the town does or do we not want to commit to that in the ordinance or the the rules? If you add it and then for some maybe a technical glitch or somebody's sick and it doesn't get done in seven seven days prior to the hearing, then somebody a member of the public primarily would have the right to ask for a continuence and force it upon you using your rules against yourself. Okay, that's up to you, but that's what happens.

I know there was um a bill presented in the last legislative session to create a database that would allow all notices for everything, uh probate notices, um notices for damages hearings, for for this kind of thing to all be on a database so that everybody would have access. I it didn't pass, but I think we'll probably going to have that soon eventually at some point and they may include but you still have to put it in the newspaper just to protect the small newspapers. But

I still just think form is we shouldn't use form over substance. We are providing more transparency than is required by the law. We should continue to do that. Um I think that's the important thing there. Any other questions for staff? [Music] So, we'll be approving this at the next So, yeah, we we want to take anything you said tonight and then put our changes into it, any final comments. Taylor might have, and then we'll present you with a clean copy.

Okay. Was there anything else you wanted to add to the discussion on this? No. Okay. Paul, no. Okay. No members of the committee. Nothing else. Okay. Moving on to committee reports. DCA did not meet last week as normal. We're meeting tomorrow. So, we have no report yet. We'll have two reports next month. So

I've got the redevelopment trifecta, if you will, from last week. Indeed, three things. Uh our usual um invoice approvals, also 100 south change orders and uh payment approvals were presented regarding it in addition to the 2026 uh budget introduction. Okay. Town Council working on the budget. All right. Is there anything else that anyone would like to add for the good of the order?

I have one more thing. You received this flyer on your desk today. You received the same flyer in an email from me today. Um the um Indianapolis Metropolitan Planning Organization, which is the transportation planning organization for this area, um is holding this workshop on September 18th. It's an all day workshop. Uh it is free for all of us. All you have to do is sign up. In the email I sent you is a link to register. You do have to register. Free lunch is provided. Paul and I are going. So I've already signed up for it. So

all hang out together and learn together. That would be awesome. And the BCA will be uh invited tomorrow night. And the town council is also invited. Okay. Is there any discussing any any cases? Is there anything else anyone would like to add? In that case, we are adjourned.