Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening everyone. Thank you for joining us. I would like to call the meeting of the Beller Planning Commission to order on this Thursday, July 17th at 6 PM. I'm uh Lois Kister Kelly and currently chair of the planning commission. The agenda for this evening is a review of a project contained continued from June 5th for a special development site plan and landscape plan applicable for an 82,924 square foot shopping center consisting of restaurant retail and grocery uses by Belair Marketplace LLC to be located at 600 Baltimore Pike. After the presentation is uh presented to the planning commission, Kevin first will begin and he will present. Then the um applicants will present. The commission will ask questions and at that point any of you who would like to come up to speak um please do. I look forward to hearing from you. Okay, Kevin, please. Okay, I won't go through this whole staff report because you've seen it before since this is a continued U project. Um, so I'll take you to uh page three. Um, kind of I'll be I'll be repeating a little bit of what you had. Uh, and one thing to to just make you aware of the minutes that you have in front of you were minutes from the July 3rd. uh they are we didn't get them in time enough to put them on the agenda. So therefore, if you can look through them while it's fresh in your head, uh then you can mark it up and have it available for September when you um are can approve them at that time.

We don't need to take any action about the minutes tonight. So we don't have to table the minutes.

No, because I didn't get I just didn't get them in uh time to put them on the agenda. Um the applicant's requesting site plan and landscape plan approval for 82,924 ft of commercial uses. Um this is an alteration of an existing mixeduse center and requires modification of the existing special development approval that's associated with that. The first two phases, that's shops at Harford Mall and the residences at Harford Mall are approved and not subject to any amendment or revision by the planning commission. Current building area of Harford Mall is 496,337 uh and uh approved is 249 multif family dwelling units. Um, as part of this development, 172,228 ft will be demolished. That'll be mostly the Macy's building. Then once that's done, then 82,924 ft of commercial space will be constructed. Proposed new building area total once that's done is 47,033 ft. Uh a condition of the approval of the residences of Hartford Mall is that 50% of the total development must be commercial space. That was also reinforced by uh ordinance number 839-25 uh which basically says the same thing. you any any uh uh development or mixed use uh development has must match the underlying comprehensive zone or comprehensive land use. So if it's the land use is commercial it has to be more than 50% commercial. Um

space applied to parking calculation is three and a half spaces per thousand square feet. Uh and that's based on 367,548 ft to be calculated. When that's done, the requirement is 1,287 spaces. The applicant has provided 1,472 parking spaces as part of their development. Uh that basically equals four spaces per thousand square feet. So they're exceeding the requirement by a half a space. The uh town of Beller code requires 15% of the total parcel be open space which is 5.07 acres. 1.54 acres is provided on site and the remainder is provided through fee and Lou. The applicant has modified pedestrian connections shown on the revised site plan that you have and these are highlighted on a pedestrian circulation exhibit which the staff has designated as exhibits 6A and 6B. Um if you don't have a copy of that, let me know. Um crosswalks appear to have been cleaned up and green areas added to the parking area. Staff remains concerned with the pedestrian connection from the north end of building 600 to building 300. Walkers use basically a concrete walk that's between two drive aisles with no buffering on either side. It's obviously appears to be uncomfortable and uh it we'll go through that in a second as far as what they plan to or they'll go through what they plan to adjust. uh that section of of the development when they come in with later phases.

Refuge and recycling enclosures have been adjusted to meet section 16559A 6. However, an enclosure previously shown in the south end of the building 600 does not appear to have been relocated. We're just trying to find it and I'm not sure where that's at. They need to explain that. In addition, an enlargement of a typical enclosure was requested in the continuous letter and should be shown on sheet LPO2. Um, a concern regarding the 30- foot width of the main north south vehicular connector which encourage which in our opinion encourages speeding. that was noted at the previous hearing and and the submitted revised site plan shows a reduction to 28 foot wide. Uh and what is graphically shown appears to be and the applicant needs to verify this a two-foot curb extension on each on all sides of the intersections uh in the the two middle intersections of the development. Um the um obviously if these these curb extensions, the town uses those all the time. That tends to assist the um especially pedestrians because it it reduces the uh length in which a pedestrian would cross. So you're instead of crossing 28 feet, you're crossing 24 feet. Um stop signs have also been added to those intersections. If the planning commission is not convinced this will create a safe pedestrian crossing condition, you can explore other alternatives. One being uh elevated crosswalks. The easternmost access to Bor Pike has been adjusted based on comments from the town. Minor revisions to the sidewalk, the median, and the adjacent uh existing parking are recommended and shown on

exhibit C. And that's a red line of of the layout with pretty minor adjustments to the plan. Um, MDOT or SHA will also provide comment on this access because this affects their road if there is backup at that access point. In addition, the left turn at Bolton Street located at the northern end of the of the drive aisle has limited queuing length and this may receive extensive use. generated from the proposed commercial and residential development. This means trucks using this access could be encumbering the vehicle stacking to a point of blocking the westbound through travel lane of Bolton Street. Um based on this issue and comments from the exhibit 12 which is the autoturn review, it is recommended that trucks servicing the commercial establishments um be prohibited from using this access point and be directed to enter the development from the south or other locations. This exhibit shows a massive area dedicated to truck turning north of uh building 30 300 and appears unnecessary uh especially if changes are made to the design of future building 400. In other words, they're showing a big turnaround so that they can avoid moving building 400. Um, in addition, the future condition of the northernmost internal intersection is recommended as a four-way stop. Right now, it's there's very generous radius which can remain, but we just it just needs to be ch uh adjusted. So, there's a four-way stop, but it doesn't need to be adjusted now because that's not part of what you're reviewing. Um in fact um the the traffic two things traffic requirements related to this are ones that still have to be reviewed by the

state by the county and by the town's traffic consultant and that's still in progress. Um the applicant is planning to do later phases and some of these things would likely have to adhere to some of the comments that are being made tonight. Um, and that's something that uh um they're going to have to keep in mind as they move forward with uh with those later phases. No outdoors site improvements associated with phase one. Those off-site improvements appear to be well on their way to being completed, especially as it's concerning um the intersection of Gateway and Bolton. Um, I actually visited that location today and I would term it as being 85 90% complete. Um, there is still a left-hand turn uh southbound north tollgate which needs to be addressed and but that's something that has to be reviewed with the county and the state and it's on their timeline not necessarily ours. The um applicant has submitted a revised landscape plan for review. Parking lot planting has been improved with additional trees. However, several interior islands are encumbered by a what is typically referred to as a filter system uh for storm water management which prevents trees from being planted in these landscape islands. Now, that's my assumption. They can if they can plant the trees in there, great. Uh but uh it's recommended that five additional diamond islands be uh with a single tree be placed in the interior of the parking. This will break up that expansive paving and um it'll kind of compensate for those trees that are not being provided on the islands where the filter systems are located.

Detail uh for those diamond islands should be um added to sheet LPO2. I do apologize. I did not provide that with the um comments, but I did give it to the applicant uh prior to the hearing. Um landscape is shown along the rear facade of both 200 building 200 and building 600, which was a comment from last time. Uh screen walls around the service areas and refuge recycling enclosures appear to be noted for height, color, and material on the architectural elevations. So, that was also a comment from last time. Uh the applicants provided revised color elevations and renderings of the proposed architecture and the town architectural consultant has provided their comments for your review. Um town comprehensive signing package is provided uh was provided in the first submission. Um traffic the required study was submitted and comments again from the town traffic consultant were provided and the applicant submitted a revised study in response to that. the town will respond once comments are received from our consultant and we'll move on to to to get a final letter. Again, state highway especially needs to comment to to be brought into the process of review here. Um the um mixed use centers uh are a special development.

Would would their comments and their position or even our position be based on I mean from a square foot standpoint we're not adding anything right which would seem to be well whatever traffic study then would see no reason to respond negatively. Uh and yet of course you've had a very not vibrant situation for a number of years. How how does that get measured?

The difference there is the background traffic's increased. So the the mall came in in 1972. Background traffic over that time has increased and changes to the intersections in and around the development must respond to that. Even if you're returning back to what the normal traffic that's demanded for this type of the fact that there's otherwise more traffic in the area, right, is a factor on the traffic study. It's interesting. Yeah. Okay.

In fact, yeah, I got we got in trouble. U we allowed uh everybody's knows Arby's, we allowed Arby's to move forward because they weren't expanding and state highway did not like that. They wanted us to because they they feel like Arby's was a a problem child given the where it's located. So, um sadly it's doing about the same amount of business. So, I don't know that it's it's light the world on fire there.

No. Uhuh. Um so, uh anyway, mixed use uh centers special development must meet the performance standards as outlined in section 16553. Um the the main item in in in there some of those are are already conditions of your approval such as security. Our police department have have asked for coordination with them. Uh the and the one I think you'll be looking at tonight is internal ve vehicular and pedestrian traffic designed to minifies minimize conflicts and mitigate potential for impact to the patrons. Um the master plan has provided a sketch showing uh anticipated development replacing the mall structure. Again, that's a courtesy review. Um one thing to keep in mind there and something that I did not put in my initial comments, um there is a existing set of parking, a a a row of parking that is existing right now. And when somebody pulls in off of Route One, there is potential for a conflict where somebody is pulling back out of these spaces. I'm not sure it hurts to keep that there now, but I think in the future in the in the master plan, that parking needs to to be removed. Um, so I'm not, like I said, I'm not suggesting that it be removed at this point, but I think for future purposes, it probably should be. Uh, and if you have any questions as to where that is, it's uh it's it would be

there, right? It's kind of circled. So, um, you Yeah. You familiar with it? I think Okay. So, in the recommendations, the only thing that I would highlight, normally we don't go through those because they've already been recommended before, but uh uh architectural consultant comments, they're referring to both comments, but especially the July 3rd letter. Uh and coordination with the Department of Public Works. Uh that's something that um is important because I I already had a comment from public works regarding phase two. Phase two and phase three when it comes to utilities are married together. So it they need to see a final plan for phase two. They need to understand how that works. So that's very important moving forward. Um if uh there's another recommendation that I'll I'll reserve until you guys have gone through and deliberated. Um let's see one of the other uh possible uh enclosure details. That's just something that they would have to provide for the trash enclosure. Just so there's an understanding. Um that's all I have. I think believe uh Chris Mud is here for the applicant.

Good evening everybody. Good to see everybody again. For the record, Christopher Mud, excuse me, with Venable. I'm here on behalf of the applicant. Uh and I'll go ahead and reintroduce our team again. Mr. Matt Robinson and Andrea Smith with SJC, Mr. John Meshel with CBL in the back. Um and then Tory Pierce and Caitlyn Pierce, both with Fred Warden Associates here in the second row. Um we're excited to be back. Uh and and I'm going to promise to be much shorter today. Um and certainly here to answer your questions. Um we we kind of boiled down. So I I presented we we prepared a presentation tonight, but nothing that you're going to see tonight is different from things that you've seen already. It's just packaged in a way to help us provide a presentation um and hopefully promote some discussion. Um and our takeaways from last time really fell into four buckets, although we're going to present on five things. The first um piece that we're going to talk about is the site plan, and I'll do that quickly. Um and then we're going to get into more of a presentation in greater detail about um green space. We heard comments about the amount of green space in the site last time, about site access and connectivity, which we know was important, about screening both as to the rooftop and dumpsters, and then about building materials. And we're going to go in that order. Um, so as as to the site plan, I have right now I have um our our uh rendering on the on the board. Does everybody have a copy of the red line site plan in front of them? That was Mr. Small's comments. So our our response to those are pretty simple. We have no issues with his comments. We're prepared to implement the red lines as shown on the plan and we would ask that you approve the site plan tonight subject to the conditions that we comply with the comments that he made um on his redline. So we're fully prepared to put in everything and to to

respond and address the comments that he provided. Um, as to the other topics, um, the first one that we, well, first thing I'd like to do in the presentation is to remind everybody that we're here on phase three, right? I don't have the full phasing plan, but phase one is the commercial to the southwest. Phase two was the residential uh, as well as the parking that you see uh, to the north there. Phase three is what we are here on specifically tonight. The site plan approval is only as to phase three and everything else relative to the code your code review is as to phase three and then of course phase four is um of interest to this group um as well as the rest but particularly phase four relative to certain connectivity issues. So, we're going to you're going to see some things tonight again that's going to that we hope will help you visualize how phase three will eventually marry into phase four. Though the portions of phase 4 um that we're sort of touching on tonight are not really up for approval. It's really only as to phase three. Um so with that, we'll describe the the green space um issues that we we are addressing. So, um, our our our takeaway last time was that everybody wanted to understand a little bit more and try and provide more green and a better pedestrian and more comfortable pedestrian experience um, within the center. Um, oh, and actually, sorry, I'm going to break away from my topic for one quick second because this is actually part of the green space, but two sort of miscellaneous things that we did uh, in to be responsive was that we put the right horses this time on the imagery. I appreciate that.

Sure. Absolutely. So, we uh we have thoroughbreds up there now and we hope that that better suits your eye and of course the eventual whatever that would look like is something that would be dealt with later. But that's the idea is to pay homage to horse racing in that location. Um and then in the front there was a comment made last time that what we were seeing was not really what it was. And so what we did was prepare this to be more like what you would see. So, there will be storm water management facilities and you see some fencing in the background. Um, we in all likelihood it will be fenced. It's possible that it will that it won't be required depending on how the grades work out, but in all likelihood it will. And um without regard to fencing, there will be landscaping that would surround it. And so, the idea of what you're seeing here is some, you know, low grass in the front with landscaping with the storm water behind it as though that just sort of blends into the background. So, we wanted to update that. Um, and as we move into the green space, you'll see that that area is certainly a part of the green greenery that we have in the site. I know we're still showing the storm water facilities as green, and I think for a large part of the year, they will be. Um, and we've going to landscape quite a bit along uh 24 and as well this marquee corner. Um and then the idea here was to just really present um and we hope that we were lining commercial corridors and lining all the areas where pedestrians are going to be interacting with sidewalks in a very green way to make it um to make it comfortable for them. Um and we we'll see some more images of how that experience is going to feel at more of a pedestrian scale in a minute. Um, one thing to note is, and these don't come up so well in this image, but in this area here, I'll use my finger. In this area here and over here, um, and here, these are planters and planter boxes. And so, that's an opportunity, not just green, but to have vibrant colors and flowers that would change, um, as the seasons change. And those areas are going to help define a lot of the pedestrian the spaces where pedestrians will interact with the tenants. Um, so

the greatest opportunities that we have, we think, for uh really greening up those areas are places where we think restaurants are likely to end up. So in this area here, back where patios are and a patio here. Um, and they're they're somewhat defined, these green spaces, and they're they would get more definition as we would come in for the outdoor dining elements and see a little bit more uh in that respect. But these areas are um we think a greater impact than we had last time. And the next image that we have in this is just to show you again how this would marry and carry over to phase four when phase four comes in. And again, we're not here on phase 4, but the idea is to show you and when we get into connectivity a little bit later to show you how all this will sort of marry together. So you have these nice treelined and uh when the trees get mature, you'll have these nice treeline walkways for people to navigate to and from the various buildings as they're shopping in one place and getting the groceries in another and eating in another. So we hope that they have a nice experience. And who damn whose uh responsibility is it going to be to maintain all this because there's a lot a lot more green space responsibility here than it has been in the previous two phases.

So it would be the landlord and the owner vententral owner of the property which would be SJC and this as a reminder SJC I don't know they have dozens and dozens of properties around the country that they do this. They have uh uh uh they're professionals at doing it. And I guess I would say I don't know whether you have you would have internal management or you hire a local management company. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. Thank you. Name and address, right? Matt Robinson. Yes.

I'll just Yes. We we hire professional management for all of our properties. They're typically local to the area and they're responsible for we we still have an asset management function that oversees them and you know we have weekly or monthly calls with them and uh but they're ultimately the ones that are maintaining uh the areas. Mr. Mud. Yes, sir. Will the landscape I know phase 4 is down the road. Yeah. I don't know how far down, but will you have landscaping on the corner there? Even though it's not phase four now, as part of as part of phase three, are you going to have landscaping up at the corner talking at this corner here? Yes. Um, so it's a good question, I guess. Yeah.

So, yes. So, Tory Pierce, Frederick Ward, five South Main Street. So, yes, the phase three parking modifications to that parking lot include landscaping around the perimeter. So, phase two phase two, I'm sorry. Yeah.

Um the next topic we wanted to talk about was site access and and connectivity. Um and this really had two focuses that we saw coming out of the last meeting. Um one was um dealing with the area between building 600 and building 300. As a reminder, building 300 up here, building 600, and there was a comment about providing a direct con connection on this side of of building 600 um up to building 300. And so we've done that now. Um and in the upper leftand corner of this exhibit, you'll see what that is going to look and feel like at more of a pedestrian scale. Um, so somebody who might be down at the future uh future phase and wanting to make their way in here can come across um the spine road here, they can get up and along the in a direct connection along the side of building 600 and straight up to building 300 in a way that um you can kind of see it here, but we have the again treeline path and you get an idea in this area here as to how that looks. One of the comments that we dealt with with staff was how how we actually would buffer uh in this particular area. And so you notice a combination of landscaping, but we also have wheel stops on this side. Uh with the idea being that vehicles wouldn't be able to pull their car up too far so that the pedestrian realm gets too small. Um so we have uh those two those two combinations to make that connection there. Um again, we think this provides a pleasant experience with this landscape buffer along that one side. um and a and a practical connection that's still comfortable for people. Um this also provides a quick demonstration for uh actually sorry the next one uh would have again a demonstration of how this connectivity would all work its way through phase 4. Um one difference that I think you can tell here that is probably a goodest place of any to address. So, one of the

comments that that staff had was that this this area now in the current phase three is a concrete walkway that's between two uh drive aisles. And it is absolutely correct um that that's how it's it's working out now. But that's kind of a function of what the site gives us at the moment. But we can tell you that once phase 4 comes in and this alignment happens, it's going to it's going to feel different and change. It's going to be a a walkway that'll be there that it's up against parking. So, it's not um you're not feeling on an island. It is an island, but you're not feeling so much on an island. Um and and I think it'd be a far more comfortable experience in that way. And we're certainly can talk more about that as we wake our way through, but that that would be our response um to that comment.

Could you point out for me? Sure. Could you point out for me the u five foot walkways versus the six? It's supposedly maybe toward Are they six everywhere now? East, west, cornerstone through the parking lot which or five feet in order to maximize landscaping. Sure. Kate Pierce. Um, I believe that all of the sidewalks are 6 feet wide or larger except for the main walkways that go through the parking lot to allow for the landscape beds to be six feet wide, which is the minimum requirement to plant trees. And that's okay. Okay. Thank you.

Label this one here and this one here. I think our concern was we initially wanted six feet, but when they put the wheel stops in there, we we're okay with five feet because the cars aren't going to overhang those walks like they normally would when you're walking down some of the um accesses in town. Um thank you and thank you, Kate. The second um the second thing that that we we focused on um coming into the pedestrian realm versus the um the the site access was this eastern entrance. So we're looking at a closeup here of this area here on the east side. Um and what we tried to do was um to install traffic calming and vehicle calming that would really provide more of a pleasant pedestrian experience. and we hope we're achieving that with what we show you here. Um, and we're accomplishing this in in several ways now. Um, one way is that the area that is to the to the right that I'm pointing to now, that's between Route One and really the entrance into the site. So, this is the first area that somebody would encounter when coming off of Route One. And then it also actually it's it's not an out, so it's just an in. Um, but it's going to be more narrow than eight foot width that we have across. So, it's it's a little bit tighter to make sure that as vehicles are entering the site, they already feel more compact. Um, the second thing that we do is that we're going to have stamped concrete. Um, so this red that you're seeing is is a signal. It's gonna it's going to be the same material that you would have as the road. I'm using the term concrete, but it'll either be concrete or perhaps asphalt, but it'll be um it'll it'll give the appearance of like a brick weave or something like that. it'll be a different color. So, it's going to signal to the pedestrian, this is where I walk, and it's going to signal to the driver. This is where pedestrians walk, and we have to be careful. And this is

something common that you see in retail centers um kind of all over the place. The the third thing that we've done is that we've we've provided stop control. I know we talked last time that um that these are not necessarily enforceable by, you know, the police, so to speak, but that doesn't mean that people won't notice them. and we have them in a lot of different places to signal to people that um that this is a place where they need to come to a full stop. Um and then the last thing that we've done is that we have we had 28 ft of wid of width on the spine road and as you approach the um uh as you make your way through the pedestrian realm it actually narrows down to 24 feet. So it's an extra two feet of curbing here. So it becomes even more narrow for vehicles as they're making their way to and through the pedestrian realm. Th this is um this is shown only in sorry this condition is shown only in this location. Um but it would also be opportunities to do it in the other locations where um where we would have uh a crosswalk near an intersection. So th those are the combination of measures that we've proposed um to make this a much more comfortable experience and safe experience for the pedestrians. Um and la oh last thing I had my notes I already talked about which was the phase three and phase 4 uh difference of that connection.

Mr. Mud, can I uh make some comments on the uh traffic? Yeah, that's my biggest concern with this whole project is traffic. And uh my experiences in Bair and every other shopping center I go in, people do not stop at stop signs. And with that being said, I still feel that you should have raised sidewalks on especially the main areas there. You mean raised crosswalks? The crosswalks. Yeah. Okay. Raised crosswalks. Yeah. Yeah. And I see that the ger don't like that idea. the grosser that's unnamed in this proceeding. Yeah. But um I feel that's a strong thing that

I'm real serious about.

Okay. Yeah. I I mean the the only the only comment uh that I can provide in this forum is we we the experience that SJC has and and um Matt can can come up and speak for himself for sure and maybe have more dialogue here, but the experience that they've had um with this grosser elsewhere is that this is a no no. And I think that it may be described as an unwritten rule with them that when they appear, they tend to make noise. And I think their concerns have to do with trucks uh and well, it's not I think it is trucks and damage that happens to trucks as well as to the goods within the trucks. And so a concern

I'm not worried about the trucks. I'm worried about children and people getting killed.

I I I completely understand. Um so one of the thoughts that we had to not avoid or to potentially avoid the situation of getting a condition in this order that could cause this tenant to walk away. And I'm I'm not, by the way, I'm not saying that that that is going to happen. I'm just saying that if we can avoid having to deal to go down that road. One of the things that we um had talked about is whether there can be like for lack of a better term rumble strips that would be installed as well to to prevent people. It's not a complete elevated crosswalk in the location where people are. So that it's the humongous hump, but it's something that is unpleasant for people and signals to people that I'm not supposed to be ripping through here at a high rate of speed. And and I think that's something that we would be more comfortable pitching to the groceryer who shall not be named than would an elevated crosswalk.

Yeah, please. And also notice that you have three different whis throughout this whole plan. 28, 26, 24, which is 24 is typical curb to curb, I believe. Okay. I don't think Mr. Robinson wanted to address the race. Okay.

Yeah. I just want to say it it it was a good idea. Um when we discussed it last month, I did not realize that this is a required truck route and I understand your concern and obviously sa safety is number one. Um but yes, this is a required truck route for the tenant. They cannot enter in off of the other side. Okay. So they they come they this is one of their required truck routes that they have to come in on this side. We provided a truck turning study to demonstrate why they can't come in on the west side. They do not accept raised crosswalks for their truck crowds for really three reasons. One damage to the truck obviously damage to the crosswalk itself because they bought them out. And then second because they bought them out the goods if they're transporting anything fragile like eggs um they also get damaged right so we are absolutely willing to address any concern related to traffic calming in this area to the extent that we can which was what we've tried to do with the different color crosswalks which you know it's it's not you know having a different color there than just the lines coming across right? That that has been universally uh you know accepted that this is a pedestrian zone. Right? When you come into a center and you see something that looks like papers, people accept that as a pedestrian zone. And then as well as the stop signs, as Mr. Mud mentioned, we're happy to explore rumble strips, other options. It was a good idea, uh Mr. Hines. um you know and I think what we if if we feel like there's additional discussion that needs to be had we would propose doing it with staff.

So before we go further you you have listed there on the ingress a stop sign. So as coming in is is is will there be a stop there? So you have to stop regardless. So if you're stopping I don't know that you need a raised or elevated or any even rumble strips for that matter. You're coming in. You have to stop before you enter the Yeah. Because you have a No, I'm talking I'm talking coming in right there. You have a stop sign. Even though it's not on the right side of the where your arrow is, you would think that you would have the stop sign on the other side of the the crosswalk

before it. But my point being is if you have a stop sign, people have to stop before they enter the enter the uh thing. Now, I know as well as you do, people are going to get do a California roll through, but still they're going to slow down and they're going to stop. You could probably also put another sign further back saying pedestrian crossing. Um I mean, you you have it on the other side, but maybe, you know, coming in earlier, pedestrian crossing. We we'll we'll even run power to the stop sign so that they're flashing if that if that is better. That you know, that will catch people. I mean, I think that that's that's more than adequate. I don't know. That's okay. Yeah. Could you could you go over that truck route? That's me. Peak's vibrating.

The truck route. Yeah. If you have a microphone adjacent to somebody who's speaking. Yeah. There you go. Thank you. So, the truck the trucks have to come in. Um I think he's he's wanting to trucking. Sorry. Is that what you want? The truck turning study. Well, I want to see where the truck comes in and how it gets to the grocery store. Oh, got it. You want to

Can they This is This is the right one. So, uh it's we're not showing how it how it gets in from that side. What this is showing is why it can't come in this way because this was something we we discussed with Mr. Small in discussion and that was one of the things we talked about. Well, why don't you just make that the truck entrance? And you know, we've we're demonstrating here is why it doesn't work. You I think it's lean. I think it's

Oh, okay. I'll put my hands behind my back. Uh it's a very compromising position, but that's okay. Um the uh yes, that's those are the the wheels of the trailer basically. I mean, they're they're full on mounting that curb at that intersection there. So, that's why Whole Foods that's why the truck route, which the tenant the tenant has approved uh is is coming in on the other side. Is there a specific time that they're going to make be making their deliveries? Are they limited? Yes. Yes. And what are those times?

Uh they're they're in the hours between 7 and 10. So, A.M. Yes. In the mornings, uh, most of the cent's going to be closed at that time. Yeah. Your grocery stores are going to be open. You're not to be the grocery store, a couple breakfast places, but most other places will be will be closed. Yeah. Again, can you go back a slide and show me how that truck's going to come in off of what? Baltimore Pike and get to that store. Um, sorry. all the way down. We don't have the same exhibit for that entrance. We were The point was to show why it doesn't work on the other side. He doesn't need to see the

I don't need to. I just want to see how he how the truck's going to They come come up in here. Yeah, they're down here. Yeah, right there. Yeah, we we did look at those turns. They would be a WD67. I'm sorry. What? She can't hear you.

I'm sorry. the the staff looked at the turning radiuses from that end uh because we were concerned also, but those turning radiuses are very gentle and they're not ones that would be um interrupting the flow of a truck in that of that size because it's a WB67's the big semi-trail. So that's the one from Route One is is relatively gentle and and uh is not going to cause problems. It's the one from Bolton that was a problem. We had I think Jimmy and I both had concerns about and still do about queuing there. They have concerns about even getting a truck to turn in that from that direction. So, I think we're both on the same page when it comes to that if that's

Yeah, Mike. Correct. We're going to post signage that there's no trucks allowed in that entrance. Well, I I would go one step further. I know we don't have any control over the traffic study or anything like that, but my recommendations is not have a left turn there. If you're coming through that intersection, I think it's room for what? Six cars, Kevin. Six vehicles. I'm I'm going from memory. I think it was around six.

And if you're waiting to turn in, make a left turn since that's not a light there. People coming through that intersection coming from the other side on Bolton Street or coming in off of Route 24, that's going to be a backup there. And I see that as a safety concern, but again, that's we don't know what the traffic study's going to say, but I I really think that should be a no left turn there. Just an exit from the mall parking lot out to 24. Just make it an exit, not an entrance. You got multiple entrances going down that road. You got two more down on the left.

But hang on. As a part of two, they're shutting down the other entrance on Bolton Street. This will be the only entrance into the property off of Bolton. Thought there was a light right here. There's another down where uh they're shutting it down. They're closing it off as part of phase two. Okay. I that was part of phase two was traffic improvements was they are shutting down do down the entrance. My recollection, Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong, but that entrance where the light is further down is being shut down as part of their approval for phase 2 traffic. That signal is going away. It'll become a flasher. Correct. So, you can't get into the property down where between Macy's furniture store and the garage.

That's remain. Yeah, that's another one. There's another opening down further on Bolton that is being shut down. You're not going to be able to get onto the mall property from the entrance because they're changing it to a flasher. Kevin had designed the left turn lane onto the property so they could get into the property from Bolton because that's going to be the only entrance from Bolton directly Bolton to you get to the signal down at Gateway. So, if you eliminate the left turn lane, they can't get in the property from Bolton. That's it based on the current approvals. I'm just throwing it out there.

Well, remember here when we're talking about off-site improvements, it's not your perview. So, it is something you can be concerned about and certainly make sure you you voice your opinions. Um, but it is something that's a function of this traffic study. Okay. You know, I'm wondering, especially when it first opens, aren't there um predominantly three entrances of pedestrians coming from the other parking lot in? I wonder if you couldn't, this may sound silly, but maybe the first um six months you actually have a guard at each one of those just so that they're Oh, look, that guy standing there and you know, had to be cautious.

I think here are you talking about in here? what where it crosses over from the main road that leads out. Yeah. From Bolton Street. I guess when space 3 is built until the the rest of the commercials built, it's just going to be a wall there. So, people aren't even going to be walking across here. The the the pedestrian connectivity we're talking about here is really something that's going to not occur until, you know, several years. Oh, I don't know. I shouldn't say that, but some amount of time, several years from now for sure, but but sometime after phase three is open. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Um, would I quick question? Would you be opposed to what they call paddle signs? Do you know what a paddle sign is? No. It's a sign that goes in the middle of a crosswalk.

Oh. That says stop prefer pedestrians. Sure. Right. So, basically, it's yet another measure to keep things more narrow because the car doesn't want to hit that. Now, you guys would be buying new ones about every other month, but you're okay with that? Yeah. Um, you're talking about Well, in here. Oh, in there. That's fine. Yeah. I was like, I don't know where cuz usually that splits a lane, right? I just down here. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. It those are very effective. The town has put them on uh Bond Street and on Main Street. They just don't survive because they people run them over. Yeah. Um so, but if we make it a requirement, then

they got to replace it. There's something that's in the ground that actually is hard fast and then the sign goes into it. It's one of two options. You can get something that's in the ground that attaches the paddle attaches to it or what the town has done which is a weighted piece of weight that that sits in the middle of the the road. Yeah, that sounds like Oh man. Did you touch it? That was you. I didn't I breathe in.

U so the next topic that we uh that we discerned coming out of last meeting was screening. Um, and what we wanted to specifically address were two types of screening. Um, I think people were con were concerned or wanted to make sure that the rooftop screening, the example of the rooftop screening for equipment that we showed is going to be consistent throughout. Um, and I'll show you how that's the case in a second. And then also the dumpster um, screening. So, you may recall this image last time. Hopefully, Jeez, I'm going to do my best to work through the glitchiness. Um, so you may recall this image last time unrelated to screening. Well, still related to screening because it was walls, but there was staff had comments about these tiebacks of these walls to make sure that people weren't going to be running across 24. And so this plan was updated to show that those in fact will be a solid wall. There's no ability for some pedestrian to come across 24 and make their way through the site midblock. Um, another thing that we had had shown last time was this this image and this inset. This is actually phase four, but it was an example for you of how the parapet wall uh is the dash line above the dash line and then equipment would be meant to sit behind that parapet wall. So you see the letter D here and I'm going to just do this very quickly, but as you make your way through the rest of the materials and if you make your way to these images, um the the elevations that we provided in each of the locations, we give an example, a typical of that D. So the letter D that you see in these images here are referring back to that same typical to show you how the parapet wall is going to be incorporated on each of the buildings so that that screening mechanism is available to screen rooftop equipment across all buildings. Um the third thing that we wanted to mention um is dumpster screening. So um

I'm sorry. Yeah. No, I think I did that.

Yeah. You mean the wall on the Yeah. Um, so first of all, there was a lot of attention paid by staff um to this this dumpster area um up in here and incorporating more screening there, which is you see in in that form of the greenery, which was done in response to staff to block views of that dumpster enclosure um back there or those dumpsters that would be back in that location. And then there was also a lot of attention by staff paid to the dumpster enclosure that was in this location in the middle of the parking lot. Um, and specifically what what happened here, it's pretty simple. Um, if we look over here, is that areas that used to be parking have now been removed in favor of significantly increasing the size of the uh the buffer area to really hide it from the center. Um, and we also have a man door here. That's what that is. So a person can get in or out of uh the dumpster enclosure from the rear in that way. And then of course the dumpster enclosure, these are images from the front to show you how it would incorporate that corrugated metal um material on the front. Uh we also worked on the alignment to make sure that these dumpsters would be able they're on an angle you'll see, but they'll be able to be picked up by a trash truck who's navigating through this uh this area here. So I think stat the staff report indicated that this is now compliant with code. Um, so we work to do that. And then the last piece about the dumpsters, um, and this is going to, I guess, answer a question that was raised in the staff report is what what happened to the dumpster that you may remember was on the side of building 600. Um, so originally we had a dumpster there and staff pointed out, Mr. Small pointed out that um that dumpster was right in the middle of a proposed pedestrian walkway. So what we've done is we've eliminated it. Um, and the question becomes, okay, well, where are those people going to throw their trash away? And the plan is that the dumpster that's behind building 300 would serve

that purpose. Um it may seem to some of us like that's far. Um but similar to the fact that there's dumpster here that's in between buildings and there's a little bit of a walk, this is something that SJC thinks the market will um will tolerate. And I shouldn't even say it that way that this is this is market standard. Um, and frankly when when it was pointed out by staff, we kind of thought long and hard about it that the idea of putting a dumpster there while convenient to building 600 and more convenient was not a great look and it was not a great experience for the pedestrians. So putting the the trash um and having them put the trash back there we think works. And also as you're considering that um just know that there is a limited number by by the lease of the um of the grosser a limited number of of uh food uses that can go here. And so the expectation is that this building is probably going to have primarily soft goods like retail store, not the type of thing that's going to have heavy garbage. So the type of thing that someone when it's time to take the trash out at the end of the night has one bag in their hand and takes it around. or at worst they're um we've seen this in and SJC's seen this in some of their centers. People have literally have a rolling cart. So the trash goes in there, they roll it around to the dumpster and then they roll back and they close up the um that in their you know inside their tenant space and then they move on. Um so that's how we've proposed to address um the trash screening. Before we move on,

yeah, the dumpster up at the in the back of building 300, you have it perpendicular to the building. How far I mean, first off, the the whole purpose behi of of that area behind there is for the loading and unloading of trucks, right? So, it seems to me that you're choking off your access point. Is there a way that you have like a screening wall, you have a little bit of green space there to angle it at an angle in the back of 300 like this? Like if you're looking at the back of 300. Yeah. I'm trying to see if I can put it like where you have that notch out.

So where you have that notch Sorry. Okay. So where that notch out is Yeah. where you have the green space. Yep. if you angled it and put your dumpster there. I mean, is that something that we could live with? Because to me, it seems like, you know, I mean, the dumpster's what, four or five feet wide, and you've got two of them there with space in between. So, you're probably taking 16 ft of your of your uh entrance space for loading and unloading. And I would think that you'd want all that instead of choking it down. So, I I recognize the concern. Um, we we if you're happy with we already we already had it approved by the tenant, so it's it's not a big deal, but that's we we could also angle it, but

I'm just I'm just looking at the whole purpose of of that is not to have stuff in your way. So, I I like your eye. Yeah. Um, typically what will happen is the people will put them wherever they want. I mean, that'll become one big service area and whatever is convenient is what's done. Now, the the the organic ger may be particular about how that's done. No, I'm just saying on once they build it. Yeah, but it'll

they'll just stick them wherever it's a convenient. I mean, look behind just about any shopping center in town. So, and which is fine because that was the big issue with this area making sure that it was screened from the public because we knew it was going to turn into piles of pallets, uh, dumpsters. Look behind Dollar General. What's the one across the That is one of the ugliest time.

Yeah. So, and you know, they have little pallets of of uh uh uh corrugated um you know, boxes that are bound up, and those are not pretty, but they're within a a a service area that is screened. So, that's that is what we're trying to make sure we achieve. Thank you. Um so, the last thing we wanted to touch on, uh relates to building materials. And so there's a couple things we wanted to clarify and then be responsive of course to um the architectural review. So um so the first thing you may remember this screen last time where we were showing how things sort of meshed together within the phases. Um and one thing that I wanted to certainly clarify was we're applying numbers. The residential, which is phase 2, is on the lefth hand side, and we've applied numbers to show what materials are part of phase 2. We're not here actually presenting what phase 2's materials are. The representatives of phase 2 were here last time and they said afterwards, hey, we may not be it may not be exactly the type of material that you've shown. And so, I wanted to make clear here that all we were really trying to show is that our materials are complimentary to what they have, but not necessarily exactly the same. So I just want to make sure that you all realize that as we say that sit here. But the idea is is generally the same with a linear wall system, a smooth wall system and some masonry. Those those elements remain as well as the the glass and the the metal uh uh elements as well. And I'm not here to speak for what um the final design is of phase 2, but I just wanted to make that part clear. The second thing we wanted to make clear was that the image in the upper right hand side which was an image you saw last time and is in in the in the material book you have is is actually phase one. So it says fresh grocery, but this is the Amazon groceryer. And this is an image of what they have. And the importance and what we want to bring out in here, and we mentioned this last

time, is that phase one has no red brick in it. And that that's really what drove our initial design without red brick, was that the the red brick seems to be appropriate on something of larger mass and scale on the residential building. And I think they I don't think they do intend to have a brick element. Um, and we proposed it without it. So it sat different and at a lower well it is at a lower scale but it's something that's different from the the residential component. Um and but but still complimentary. And so the the I guess the one thing that we want to um to drive home in addressing now oh so sorry the third thing we want to clarify is we add the term and in the materials we add the term decorative masonry and the architect in his response. I think we we confused the situation in the way that we labeled this. We weren't suggesting that the block that we proposed at the beginning uh of this uh project in the first iteration was uh complied with the decorative masonry look he was looking for. He asked us to incorporate more red brick essentially. So from our perspective, the red brick is the decorative masonry. We're not trying to claim credit for the the block being decorative masonry. So I just want to make that clear in um in how we responded and what we presented to the architect in that way. Um and now addressing the masonry um in our proposal, we understand that the architect wants more red brick. Um and we identified that in submissions and I'm going to take you in a minute and show you basically the exact same images, one with brick, red brick and one without red brick. Um and um notwithstanding the the fact that we made the red brick submission to the architect, which we did at his request for his review, we still here today ask you to approve the

version without the brick. We think that it matches phase one. We think it sets off from the residential in a way that we think is actually sharp. Um and it's a different scale building. and our lower story single um I guess the best way to put it is this modern look or the we think more modern look without the brick is something that SJC has executed throughout the country something that they think looks sharp throughout the country and I know this is completely subjective um but they really prefer to do it here um this is not sometimes developers or engineers or people will come up and ask for things because it's cost this is not about cost for them it's about what they believe is the right thing Um and so to that end, we're asking you to approve the images without the brick. Um we understand if you want the brick, that's completely your decision and up for debate. Um but that's really what we're trying to do. So I will say one caveat um with that and I'm going to take you into um images of the the no brick and brick. What we're looking at here is building 100. This is where the grosser is. The grosser has approved this um this facade that you're looking at and they have a very robust internal process which is really part of the entire vetting process to land them in the first place. They have uh investment committees and a lot of different groups that you have to go through. So to the extent that you were to impose or require brick and specifically were to require it on this building, we're not even sure whether we can get the tenant to agree to it. Um, so even if you feel like bricks should be imposed, we would ask that at the very least it not be imposed on this building so that we don't run into a situation where we'd have to get back into a process that we don't really have control over and may not be del to be able to deliver on. So I want to make that that request um as a as a ground level. So to that point, I don't have a version of building 100 that shows brick because it's something that we truly

don't want to do and are asking you not to require us to do. Um and from there I I now have images of each of the remaining buildings um that'll be juxtaposed to one another. The first one shows no brick and the second one same building incorporates red brick in you know these endcap areas. Um and then on to building 300 again a no brick uh proposal juxtaposed to the brick um with on the endcap areas and in those spaces. And then we have building 600. Same thing, no brick. And then with brick. Um, incidentally, this is the building that in the no brick scenario here was where we used to have the dumpster enclosure. And now when you move to the brick enclosure, it shows how we got rid of the dumpster um, and put landscaping there. But even if it were a no brick scenario at this point, it would um, it would still look like that with regard to landscaping. And then finally, building 700 with no brick versus brick. Um, and that that pretty much uh I think rounds out the comments we have. Two things I picked up, one thing I picked up on um miscellaneous uh topics was the filter question. So Kate whispered in my ear and said that we can plant the trees in the filter, but we're still fine to do the diamond islands, but it's it's not something that it's something that is possible.

Before before we move on to the diamonds, do we really need to do that? They have them in Target. People are trying to wedge a Suburban in there. There's no trees in the Well, there's no I understand, but my point being is they have diamond shaped cutouts in Target which cuts down on the size of the of the um of the spaces of the spaces. Somebody's always trying to wedge a Suburban or something. You have a big truck. Do you have a big truck? That's

right. I'm not I've parked far away. I have no problem walking in your microphone. My my point being is there's other people out there that will will take the opportunity to park an oversized vehicle in one of those spaces that's always sticking out into the parking lot in the parking lane. And I see no reason for us to mimic something that has already failed in the target parking lot.

I understand it's purely up to the planning commission. I understand you want to put trees in there, but I I would say if you if you did that, let's just take out a whole set of, you know, like take out four parking spaces one place and just plant make that a a little mini park. It I mean, I'd rather see that than than it's up to the planning commission. You're the ones who are in charge of whether or not you want to have trees in there. The I will say that there are a lot of places that have these. If you go down in Florida, they're all over the place. I'm not I know we're not in Florida.

I'm not saying I'm not All I'm saying is I go to the Targets over to Target when I'm when I'm forced to inevitably there's somebody over there that's trying to wedge something that doesn't belong into those spaces. Understood. The that's going to happen here. So, I don't think we should

I got you that. Let me just clarify this with uh with uh Caitlyn. My impression was is that when you have these filteras in there that you cannot plant trees if trees can be installed in th in those parking islands there's really in my opinion as far as the requirements there's no need to provide those diamond islands. I'd like to hear from everybody else's as to what you guys believe but that's the case. So in a filter system they're designed specifically so that they can have you in a filter system they're designed specifically so that each filter system can have one tree planted and usually they're more on the ornamental side. So they're not a large shade tree but they are still a tree

and so on those islands it would be only one tree within that filter system. So you guys will have to discuss and decide. I'm good. I'm good either way. They make their numbers for interior parking either way. I mean, I'd rather see them take out a complete section of four parking spaces and put in, you know, four or five trees. If the goal is to put trees in there,

let let me just address that comment right there. I can do that in every location except in front of the tenant that shall not be named. Those parking spaces have to stay like they are. Everywhere else is fine. We'll even put more elsewhere. up to you. I would uh I would leave that up to the applicant. I mean, if they want to have Target like failed parking, then God bless them. There may be other issues with Target that's been reflected in their stock price over the last

I'm just saying I know Target doesn't have free, but they have they've got I think they have actually they have like 10. Those were initially designed to have trees in them and then they put lighting in them. U the one in uh Belair Town Center has those and trees are in them. So it's purely up to you guys. If you don't want to see those because you don't like the way they they interrupt the uh ability to park, I'm good with that. If especially if we can plant at least a couple more trees in some of these islands that have the filter systems in them. Plus, it gives you four more parking spaces. I'm sorry.

It gives you four more parking spaces. The diamonds, if you turn that or put whatever there, you don't you lose your parking space. Yes. I mean, these are designed to provide landscaping without taking away parking. Right. I have a question, too. Did you uh I believe I've read that not only did you increase green space in in the walkways and such, but that you increased it also in front of of the buildings themselves? Yes. How much did more to what what will be the average can you say? Do you have a number?

I don't know the answer and you know just don't hold me to this. If I had to estimate, it was probably somewhere around 40% that we increased it. An increase of 40% before. Thank you. Yeah.

One of my I'm very pleased with the overall project. Um, one of the things that I would like to see nailed down in whatever we approve is that the view from Route 24 very closely resembles what you're showing in this artist rendering. Other words, what we what we don't want, and I I'm sure you don't want for the back of the buildings to look like the back of buildings. And I like that. Not, it doesn't have to be that particular horse. It could be a different horse, but I I would like to um tie our resolution into this uh artist rendering um with any changes uh subject to staff approval. So you're what you're proposing and what I'm look what I think you're proposing, what I'm looking for is effectively two fronts uh to your buildings. And I like that's good. That's what it should be. It's the most visual place in all of Harford County really.

So So this is what you would see from building 100, which is where the grosser is. Um and building 200 is point to the one that's you see from 24. Yeah, that would be 200. Kind of looking for the right um elevation south elevation. That would be it. Strictly talking about the ones that front that that back up to Route 24.

Yeah. So, it's it's it's this elevation here and this elevation here. you basically when McDonald's came in and redid their store, they didn't like it when I asked them to put windows in the back facing the road. So, but they did it because um it looks it looks it doesn't look like a drive-thru as much as it does a storefront. That's that's really what what Phil's at looking at. And that's what I asked the same question last time as well that to make sure that whatever we're seeing from from 24 Yeah. looks like it could be a storefront.

Even if even if it's just the back doors of something, it still looks like a storefront. But with your awning and things like that that you have there, that's that's what Phil's getting at is that Yeah, I think we can easily have a condition that the final design would work through staff to make sure that it that it presents in that way. Yeah, we're always looking for that. We're in complete alignment. That's why we oriented the center the way that it is. I I know you're not in resistance. I just We just have a responsibility to nail that down so that that whatever we approve u includes something that looks kind of like this.

Yep. Well, and it's good to say too because I think last time we talked about the fact that this this image doesn't necessarily control and so to the extent that you want this to be similar then then you can do that through a condition. Okay. [Music] Kevin had a question about the deliveries. Um, are we asking or recommending that the deliveries be done between 7 and 10 to eliminate conflicts? Because of their location, the deliveries are not restricted. Okay.

Um, if they were closer to residential, they would be restricted so that they could not be coming in before 7 a.m., which it doesn't sound like they're doing anyway. Yeah. Um, I'm surprised given that there are so many front-loaded businesses that you're not doing early morning delivery, but that's really up to you. So, are you is the 7 to 10 just for the retailer who shall not be named or is that for everybody? It it's in the shopping center rules. Oh, it's in the overall rules. Okay. Okay. Thanks, Matt. Interesting. I can't promise that they always, you know, the I can

the ger who shall not be named is very cognizant of it. The front loaders, you know, but they're bringing in vans. They're not bringing in trucks. I think the importance too is the enforcement mechanis mechanism is there in by the landlord. Yeah. and the street ma the parking lot maintenance um the one the one we have right now with um Barretts and so forth that parking lot is an absolute mess. Do you have someone who is or will that be maintained and how will

I tell you what why don't you tell us who's maintaining that parking lot and they they won't hire that person for sure. I mean in all seriousness I mean they they want they want the best um you know you go ahead our lease requires us to keep keep this entered our our lease our lease requires us to keep it in good repair. So it's, you know, it's not going to be an issue. Thank you. All right.

Do I think um just to clarify, if I'm saying this wrong, Chris, let me know. I think that the applicant needs some sort of an answer from the planning commission concerning the architecture. They're requesting basically that the spec or the rendering that the retailer who shall not be named has approved is okay with you guys. And then two with the rest of it whether or not you want to see more brick or brick or less brick, right? I'm sorry. How did you say that? Ideally, just brick it period or no brick.

Yeah, right. We our our preference is the original submission which you're looking at now. So I was describing it as the no brick option. That's specifically what we're asking you to approve. Um and to the extent that you want us to incorporate brick, we would ask you to improve as we've proposed here, which is the brick that we've shown in these images without a requirement for brick on building 100. Correct. Which is our retailers don't have anything. I think nobody has really said anything about that. like what you guys are thinking as far as which way subjectively you want to go want them to go. So I just want to make sure it's clear in the record which way you want them to go and if you are okay with the no brick communication.

Well their submission is without brick. So if we approve that then we don't need to further stipulate. Or do we? He's he the the retailer who shall not be named building is no brick. Right. I understand that. But if if and that's what they're submitting to us. So do we need to take a proaction position if we Yeah, we agreed. Yes. You need to say that's okay. Yeah, cuz he gave you both options. He gave you both options. And the reason why it doesn't have brick is not necessarily because of our architects or what Kevin's uh thought process is or yours. It's because the retailer who shall not be named of course is like, "No, that's our spec. Well, that's all great." You know, the Taco Bell thing. So,

I'm personally comfortable without the brick. Um, we're not talking about a colonial area, historic area. We're talking about where we are, and it it seems to reasonably fit into what's already been done with phase one and two. And I I would not it's not an issue for me and I'd be very happy to to when we get around to motion time to to move for the no brick um provision.

I feel the same way as Paul does because uh at first I was for the brick. I I think the brick looks good, but I think it should match phase one. It bring the whole shopping center together. And I understand the contrast for the residential which has the brick. I get that. And that that might be good. It won't confuse people when they go in there. Okay. So, no brick all the way around, right? Yeah. Okay. It's a It's a commercial area. I think it's very attractive without the brick, too.

Kevin, I I do have one question. The renderings we have shows signage of tenant in the front and tenant in the back like the building. So, I'm assuming that that's tenant shows where like a a place where where the tenant would be or the the size of the building or size of the um retail space. So from a signage standpoint, is there any issues or is there an issue for us having a sign for Chuck-E-Cheese on the back building as well as the front?

No, that's all over the place. Um, in fact, our uh planner who's in charge of signs, I think just reached out today to get some more in to provide some more information or to pro obtain more information uh from SJC regarding the signage so that she can start the process of going through. That's excellent. I would think that would be good marketing actually. I'm sorry. I would think that would be good marketing to have the most of them do that. Yeah. All right. If we can wait a minute.

Yes. Um would either of you care to speak from the public? Okay. Sir, all the way in the back. Are you interested in speaking? Okay. Thank you very much. I I did have have a question about the security. So, it's going to be one security company. Is that security company, is it going to be located on the on the property? Is it going to have an office on the property? Is it going to have a garage? I don't know whether is that a question for you. I mean, because this is a this is a

Oh, can can I clarify? When you say property, do you mean phase three? Are you talking about I'm talking about you own you own. Yeah, it I believe the plan is to I mean we can coordinate with CBL and if you know we're comfortable with their company uh we we can use the same company but yeah it's a standalone property that has its own agreements and everything. So, do you do you want it to be the same company or Well, well, I

one thing that I'm sure of is it's incumbent upon us through conditions that I think have been requested by staff to work together with the police and with the town on ensuring that it's done in an efficient way. So, we're not going to certainly not going to buck that trend or that requirement and we're not going to be lone rangers out here. So, we'll work to do whatever makes the most sense, I think. And ultimately, and I I said at the beginning of the last meeting, and this this may not happen this way, but I think there's a hope that CBL and perhaps with SJC is going to be in here very soon, you know, next several months uh on on the rest of it, right? and or maybe it's you know I don't know six maybe it's six or more months I don't know but the picture is going to become clearer once it becomes a more unified brand new um establishment as to how all that'll fit together I think sitting here right now your expectation would have to be you're going to do your own thing but coordinate with with Maul

I also don't care if if you want us to use the same security company we'll use the same security company I yeah I was just curious as to how what you got planned for What we have planned is we're going to interview security firms and we're going to select who we think is best irregardless of who they're using. But if you would like us to use the same company, that's

I think I can speak for Chief Moore. I think he'd want to have the same security company. um they've done uh a lot of coordination with the existing mall uh through Lori Alman and um issues such as active shooters uh just a ton of things. There's obvious uh there's a lot of issue on retail theft and uh that Target has been experiencing. So, I'm sure he's going to want to get together and coordinate with whoever you have and she he probably have like to have one point of contact.

CBL has been operating here longer than we have and I trust their judgment. So, that's fine with us. Plus, that's one of the conditions in here anyway. They coordinate with town police. So,

that's right. Exactly. that say, "Madam chair, I'd make a recommendation um or any comprehensive plan that the planning commission provides a consistent determination." Can I interrupt you just for one? I just want to make sure that you guys go through and have decided on because I'm going to give you some motion uh items relative to that north south vehicular connection. Are you okay with that what they presented? Do you want to add I think to those idea of rumble strips at one point um they proposed paddle signs seem to be is a is there a consensus for paddle signs?

They also suggested flashing lights at the stop signs. One thing that I would add to that is that um the pressed brick should be concrete not asphalt. So, um, yeah, those are things that are okay with you. Those will probably need to be in included into the in the site plan. In the site plan motion. Yeah, I can provide that. Tell me what's what was the last one again? The I thought I had all this, but

Well, they've already shown in their submission. They showed the the uh concrete sidewalks or crosswalks. You would just have to add the paddle sign and the lighting sign stop signs. flashing stops on in the rumble strips. I don't think so. I don't think so. Yeah, we don't need rumble strips. You guys need you got stop. You got first off, everywhere else has either a stop sign, a yield, or it's full on. They're going they're going to have a lighted stop sign or a flashing stop sign, which is more than anybody else in town does. We don't need rumble strips on you guys.

I mean, I don't think we need I like to see them on the main drag myself where the 28T one because that's where they're going to speed cuz it's going to be a shortcut from one end to the other end. That's just my opinion. I don't think we need rumble strips first. Anybody else? I have wondered about rumbled strips on the exiting like onto Route One really forcing someone to a vehicle to slow down before they get off out of this whole area.

You're talking about um somebody entering the site off route one. No, she's talking about exiting. You're entering, you enter on uh Bolton and then at the end you're going to enter, you're going to exit, I'm sorry, onto Route One. Is that not right? Mhm. So if you had rumble strips at that point,

I personally don't think I personally don't think you need rumble strips. on either the entrance or the exit. I mean, we have we have signage for a pedestrian crossing. We're going to change the pedestrian crossing to concrete walkway. They're going to they're going to give us a a lighted stop sign. I I don't see the need for rumble strips or anything to tell somebody else that they need to slow down. They if if the customer can't figure out that they need to slow down, we're not going to change their attitude or mine. Okay.

I was just going to add if I get a vote, I don't want to do the rumble strips either. Not not because it costs money or anything like that. I just I think it's odd. So, Phil, how do you feel about it? I I personally don't see the need for the rumble strips. Okay. Neither. Sorry. Okay. Was there anything else, Kevin, that we needed to respond to? I'm going to read this once I read it. Oh, okay. Don't forget about the part with the compatibility with the uh I did I got that already done. Depiction.

Uh and the um and that we'll be approving the non brick.

Yes, I got that, too. That's the three areas that I'm aware of. Hard for you to follow. This is what I've got. Um this is would be condition nine. provide a concrete brick crosswalk, panel signs, and lighted stop signs at the two middle intersections within the north south connector drive aisle to the spec specifications of town DPW. Is that that's good by me? Then for architectural elevations, architectural elevations must include elements shown on the perspective renderings on exhibit 10b. The one that they just passed out is what I'm going to stamp as exhibit 10B. And then lastly, the uh uh town architectural consultant comments. This is just a list of all the different comments that you've gotten from other agencies. uh July 3rd approving option without brick.

Okay. And Kevin number six, coordination with the Bair Police Department regarding security. Uhhuh.

Is that where we can say something about one security company? Yeah, you can you can say um coordination with the Belair Police Department um regarding security and surveillance measures within the entire mall development. Um, but Pete, do we need do we mean to stipulate that it be one company or do we mean to stipulate that it'll be done it'll be coordinated with the chief? Wouldn't we just leave that to the chief's platitude? If he, for whatever reason, he said, "Yeah, I'm good with two different ones." I mean,

do we want to stipulate that as a condition of approval? If I'm the police chief, I would rather deal with one rather than Well, but wouldn't we wouldn't from our standpoint, wouldn't we leave that up to the chief rather than us inserting that in in our motion? We're already saying it's going to be coordination with the Bair PD regarding security and surveillance. Do we want to tell the chief? We're going to leave it up to the chief to decide. Yeah, he's the professional law enforcement guy. I agree. Yeah, I'm I'm just thinking that dealing with one company rather than two or three and he might he might see it that same way. I I don't doubt that he does, but I don't know why we would want to get into that business of telling him that we're already conditioning the approval on coordination

except that the planning commission's concerned about, you know, the the security that we can leave it up to the I trust the chief to take care of that in his professional duties. My is he going to be notified of that? the planning commission discussed he actually provided an email uh request relating to that. So, and what what did he request? He requested that there be coordination between Oh, okay. developer and him. He may have said something about I just want to deal with one security company rather than two or three, but

um he didn't say anything about the security company. He was more concerned about surveillance and uh cameras. uh the town as Mr. Chismar knows that just spent a bunch of money on uh new camera systems and I think he'd want to be tied into that. Okay. I think it's fine to make sure that the chief knows about your concerns. Oh yeah, I'll let him know. He knows about that. Yeah. Concerned about one versus two.

Thank you, sir. Okay, madam chair, uh make a motion uh the planning commission provides a consistent determination of proposed development of the 2022 biller comprehensive plan as required by town code section uh 165-9. Second. Uh right. Jan I Bill I I chair votes I as well.

Madam chair I'd make a motion for the site plan for phase three um development at a minimum the approval of the preliminary site plan is conditioned on the following. One, prior to building permit application, submission of a final site plan for signature incorporating comments from the staff report and comments from the Bair Volunteer Fire Department dated May 12th, 2025. Health Harford County Health Department dated May 23rd, 2025. Harford County Soil confirmation district dated May 21st, 2025. condition uh conditional TIA approval letter from the town and comments from Harford County and Maryland SDH Maryland State Highway Association for off-site intersection or or I'm sorry Maryland State Highway Administration for off-site intersection or improvement road improvements pending um Bair Public Works comments dated May 21st, 2025. Town Architectural Consultants comments dated May 26, 2025 and May

July 3rd

and July 3rd, 2025 and with the approval option to um make the make the uh development without break and red line exhibit C providing minor adjustments to the site plan and landscaping plan. Uh, number two, prior to the approval of utility construction drawings, applicant must address comments from the Maryland American Water Company. Number three, coordination for of utility placements, easements, and rightaway with the Department of Public Works prior to building permit issuance. Uh, number four, public amenity provision at a minimum uh, $30,000 is required based on section 165 uh,18.e. E and must be approved by the cultural arts commission along with submission of receipts to the town prior to use and occupancy permit. Number five, provision of a cost estimate uh along with an associated architectural agreement and performance bond to meet the requirements of section 165-32. C PN 4 PN lower D uh related to the east facade of the remaining Harford Mall structure is required prior to a building permit issuance. Uh number six, coordination with the Bair Police Department regarding security and surveillance measures within the entire Harford Mall development uh consistent with section 165-53. I par 2 grand lower G bracket one bracket lower H is required prior to use and occupancy permit. Number seven, no further permits or approvals will be granted by the town prior to the completion and approval of all site improvements required for the shops at Harford Mall uh-05P

uh-21-01 uh- SP phase 1. Complete all work on the final site plan prior to issuance of the final use and occupancy permit. Uh a construction of required improvement outlined in the town traffic impact analysis conditional approval letter pending and b landscape installation. Nine provide a concrete uh or concrete pedestrian crosswalk panel signs and lighted stop signs at the north south connector areas and to the specific of the town department of public works. Number 10, architectural eval elevations must include implements shown on the perspective renderings on exhibit 10B, which is the front cover sheet that we saw tonight. Second

I I chair. Okay, I'll I'll grab the landscape plan. Oh, maybe I won't because that's small. I can't see. I don't have my I had the same problem, too. Go ahead. You're on the roll. No, ma'am.

Madam Chair, I would make u a motion for the landscape plan. At a minimum, approval of the landscape plan is conditioned on the following. Number one, prior to a building permit issuance, submission and approval of the final landscape plan uh incorporating comments from this staff report and the following. Uh I would in my motion I'm going to eliminate A which is the addition of five uh interior parking lot base design and exhibit spec exhibit C based on the fact that I don't think they're necessary. So you guys can deny it the second if you want. Uh B, admission of of uh addition of refuse refuge recycling enclosure detail to sheet LPO2 indicating material to be provided by FNA FW. Oh, okay. FWA. Um item C, addition of diamond uh island detail sheet. Um we would get rid of that too. And item D. Um actually item D. Item C we're eliminating. Item D we are addition of the elevated crosswalk uh detail to LP1. Um if plan if required by planning commission

which we're not requiring. So we so basically let let me re let me redo my motion here. the landscape plan. Madam Chair, yes. At a minimum, the approval of the landscape plan is conditional on the following. The addition of the of the refuge recycling enclosures detail to sheet LPO2 indicating material height and color to be provided by Frederick Warden associate. And that's it. Because everything else is the diamond stuff, right? The A is the diamond.

You're right. Y So you get I will I will second the motion for purpose of amending it. All right, Phil. Um, a addition of five Zakova Servita to the interior of the parking lot based on exhibit C and addition of Diamond Island detail to sheet LPO2 providing for installation and maintenance of trees. Second. Yeah. Second. Okay. All right. Now you're voting on

We're amending We're voting on the amendment and that means eliminating number C. Correct. Oh, we included that one, too. He put that back in. Oh, right. Okay. All right.

Okay. Okay. Chair votes I voting on the special on the amendment. Special development plan. Yes. Now you're voting on the actual motion. Yes. Now that includes A and C. A B and C. A B and C. Yeah. Doesn't have the elevated crosswalk. Yeah. No elevated crosswalk. That means I move the amended motion. You're just voting, aren't you? Because we've already stated it, right?

So now you're just voting on the uh on the original motion. Okay. Phil the amended the amended motion. Okay. I Don. No. I Jimmy Peter I chair votes I.

Okay. I'll take the hopefully non-controversial special development for youth center. The special development for youth centers based upon the following finding. the fact that the applicant has adequately demonstrated adherence to section 165-53 um I2G uh A the applicant has applicant has provided a unified arrangement of buildings service areas parking signage and landscaping B the architecture site design lighting and signage incorporate consistent design and theme elements and materials massing and facade designed for the project that is in harmony with the character of the neighborhood. C. The internal circulation system is designed to minimize through traffic and traffic conflicts within the project. D. Safe pedestrian movement and provision of pedestrian blocks within the parking lot surrounding the building perimeter is considered in the design. E all proposed establishments have particular service access either from an unloading from an individual service drive space or from a common service yard. All loading trash removal and compact compaction or similar activities are segregated for public areas and screen for public use. F signs to identify the use of an occupant will be designed as part of the architectural design of the building. Post signage is conditioned for approval of the preliminary plan and is subject to review and approval by the planning commission. G directional andformational signs are designed and adequately provided.

H center of management is responsible for providing on-site security service. I uh a traffic and and indoor parking study was submitted and is under review. J. The owners of all lots have executed and recorded a development agreement with the town providing that all owners acknowledge and agree to be bound by performance standards as an overall scheme of development outlying all shared elements. Granting reciprocal easements to permit each owner to access any of the owner's lot or parcel of land for the purpose of compliance with town code and for either remediating any zoning violations or to comply with the town code for the purpose of any approval sought by any owners of the lot and agreement of the town shall permit enforcement of any portion of the town code upon one or more owners of any land or parcel of and contained within the mixed use center scheme of development.

Second Jimmy I Peter I Bill I Don Hi chair votes I as well. All right you thank you very much. Very excited about this project for the town. Very good. Thank you absolutely. It's done. Huh? It's done. Thank you. Mhm. [Music]

All right. I'll be it. Tons of paper

before we go through this. Right. Can't can't accept it. Before we go through this. Go ahead. Not you. You forgot. I agree. No champion. No champion. Okay, we're going to continue this meeting. So, if you could uh hold your conversations until you leave, that would be helpful. Okay, let's review the project review quickly. Any questions? Any questions on the project review status report?

Raising Canes is due to um open about the first week in September. They're going to have a ribbon cutting. I can't remember the exact day. Very good. Sign all the buildings. Yeah. And I'm sure we'll be notified so we could attend if we wish yet. I believe it is on the um or it will be on the calendar, but I anyway I will send you a notification. I mean, there's a crew there like round the clock, so they're working hard, but they're going to miss that target at all. Yeah. All right. Yeah,

the trampoline park. Um the guy uh just decided that this wasn't his location. He just is moving. He's going to do it somewhere else. I wonder if he'll go to a mall. He might you never know. You might see him in the old Macy's furniture store. Any other questions?

So, you know, in looking at this I there's Bair Road, Baltimore Pike. Where does Baltimore Pike start and where does it end? it. You'll start to see a change in addressing right around Tailgate Road where where um Bair Road when you go further west, Beller Road is the the preferred address. Um, you could to to find that out, you can go look on Estat and you can figure out addresses and they they say such and such Bair Road and then they they switch on they get up to the high Baltimore Pike to Bell Road to Baltimore Pike.

Yeah. Welcome to Maryland. Just stick with Route One. You'll be good. Yeah. No, I was just curious about that. That's all. I I never realized that. I prefer Baltimore Pike, but you know, that's me. Kevin, I think the cuto off line, I know this sounds weird. I'm just pointing out something from Title for all the years that we've been doing Title. It seems like the cut off point is Route 24. So, anything like their side of 24, Harford Mall, Tgate Road is considered or Tgate Marketplace is Bel Air, right? Uh Belair Road. And then anything closer to Belair, which makes no sense to me, is bottom pike on the other side.

Well, at least hopefully it's not Blair. Yeah, boy. Blair. It is Blair Road. Blair Road. Blair Wolf. How about 332? What's going on with that? 332. They just contacted me today. They cannot extend. They already extended once, right? uh they cannot extend again. So they're going to come back and they're I think planning to come back in front of you to get reapproved. Um their biggest problem is that uh and this is something that well their access is their biggest problem.

Yeah. They they need an agreement with the car wash basically. Yeah. Yeah. Right. All right. Do I any more questions? Anyone? I have a motion for adjournment. Yes. Motion for adjournment. Second. Is that second? All those in favor? Thank you. See you in September.