Personnel Board - Special Meeting

All right, this is uh opening the call to order for the meeting of the personnel board for October 21st, 2025. In attendance, we have uh John Schwin, Chief Ryan Hawk, Matt Shipley, Derek Fiser, Steve Corbal, Rita Martin, Brian Snder, Joe Wall, Amy Wesban, Michael Witherall, and June. Oh, sorry. Drenovfish. Thank you. Open it up for public comments on the agenda items at this time. Ellen Wright. Um, are we doing addresses? Are we doing addresses?

Okay. Um, Ellen, right? And, um, my name W R I G HT. My question about the appointment of a solicitor. I thought the personnel board had a solicitor and when I looked at the minutes I didn't see that there had been a loss of solicitor that one needed to be appointed. So that was perhaps I missed that um in prior minutes. So that was my question. Thank you.

Thank you. All right. Any other public comments? All right. So, we'll um 26th and also September 16th. I have a motion to approve the the minutes. So, moved. I'll second it. All in favor? I opposed. All right. The eyes have it. New business. Uh appointment of solicitor. Can I have a motion to approve Mike Witherall as our new solicitor? Second. All in favor?

I opposed. All right. So, Mike is uh appointed as our new solicitor. And now we're going to uh conduct a hearing for disqualified candidate. Mike, you want to take over? Be happy to. My name is Mike Wither. I'm now, as everybody heard, is the solister for personnel board. And today we have a hearing for a disqualified candidate. Is candidate Liippard here? Yes, sir. If you stand, please sir. Give your full name. Joshua Michael Liippard. L I P E R T.

Okay. Thank you very much, sir. And uh this hearing is a local agency hearing. You can sit down, relax. Um where the rules of evidence are relaxed, any relevant evidence will be submitted. Uh you'll have the opportunity to cross-examine anybody who testifies and you'll have the opportunity to testify on your own behalf. Uh I take it you you do not have counsel here today. Is that correct? Uh my council could not make it. They're in depositions. Okay. And at this point uh this is uh the the town of Macanas uh had requested disqualification and Steve, it's up to you as the solicitor to provide us with the information on that.

Yeah. Thank you, Mike. Um, in front of everybody, uh, well, in front of Mr. Shipley and Miss Martin, there is a pile of binders. Um, prior to the hearing, I, uh, asked Mr. Liippard to take a look. Um, and so I am I'm asking for this to be entered into the record. Um, and I I'll read the documents that are in the record for the court reporter. Um uh the first uh exhibit is um Mr. Liippard's uh 2025 police officer application. The second exhibit is a uh open records request form submitted by the town to the Metro Nashville Police Department. Exhibit three is a waiver and release for background investigation dated May 20, 2025 signed by Mr. Liippard. Um, exhibit four is uh a set of disciplinary records for Mr. Liippard from the Metro Nashville Police Department. Exhibit five are additional employment records from Mr. Liippard from the Metro Nashville Police Department. And number six, exhibit six is a set of performance evaluations for Mr. Liippard, again from the Metro Nashville Police Department. Uh, exhibits four, five, and six were all received from uh the police department in response to the open records request. Exhibit seven is a letter from the personnel board um regarding his disqualification. That letter is dated September 22nd, 2025. Um, exhibit 8 is an email of the same date, September 22, 2025, from Mr. Liippard to me indicating his intent to

appeal. Uh, exhibit 9 is an email from Mr. Liippard um on September 26th, 2025, again to me um formally filing an appeal. Um, exhibit 10 uh is a series of emails dated uh September 29 regarding my receipt, whether or not I received his uh September 26th email. Um, exhibit 11, again, a series of emails, um, where I responded that I did receive his appeal. Uh, exhibit 12 is article 37, uh, personnel board of the town of McCandless Code of Ordinances. Exhibit 13 is ordinance 1554, uh, which amended article 137 and exhibit 14, ordinance 1558, uh, again further amending article 137. Um, and I included those because the online uh, article 137 has not yet been updated to reflect those changes that have been made in the last nine months. Um, so that is uh that is the record that we're submitting. Um, Mike, if if the board or you and the board would permit, I'd just like to make a a quick opening statement to explain the town's position. Um and then you know Mr. Liippard can as far as we're concerned Mr. Liippard can prov you you know present his uh his objections to the disqualification. So um at the end of the day this is a a pretty cut and dry case. Um as the board knows um Mr. Liippard was disqualified because of his application which is uh tab one exhibit one. Question 18

asks if he had ever been subject to disciplinary action while in any position. If yes, please explain and provide the name of the employer and approximate date. Um Mr. Liippard answered no. If you move to uh tab four, uh this is Mr. Liippard's uh disciplinary record. It's the largest tab in the in the binder. It's 253 pages long. Um and there are a series of disciplinary actions um at least 11 that resulted in um anything from a oral reprimand of verbal type counseling uh to written reprimands to uh suspensions, several suspensions. um that added up to over 10 days of suspended time while he was uh employed by the Metro Nashville Police Department. Downs position is that um by answering question uh 18 in the negative uh Mr. Liippard um made a material misstatement on his application and according to um article 137 uh our uh ordinances require um that candidates answer honestly. Um specifically rule 203 in section uh 13705 uh indicates that if there is false or incorrect information the application will be void and any subsequent action taken upon it would also be void. Um, additionally, uh, rule 206 says that the

board may refuse to examine, uh, or may refuse to certify any applicant who is found to lack any of the minimum qualifications is prescribed and adopted for the position uh, for which Mr. Liippard has applied. Uh, here in uh, section or rule 202 uh, of the personnel board rules here, um, we require all of our candidates in the town of McCandless. And our view is that um making u material u misstatements on your application um and and one that includes over 11 disciplinary actions. It's not an example of oh I forgot that one time I received over there are 11 actions in here that occurred over several years. um that this is uh in our view a pretty strong sign of of the type of character that we do not need uh or want in our officers and the rules here allow us to um to disqualify him for those reasons. Um secondly, uh our I guess our second argument would be um in the letter uh that was sent to Mr. Liippard regarding his disqualification uh in which that is in tab in your exhibits here that would be exhibit and tab seven. Um and according to our rules and regs we provided Mr. Liippard with a specific method by which he was to appeal his hearing. Um and this is in the last paragraph uh that he has to to in order to exercise his writer review he has to inform the personnel uh board in writing of his uh request to appear. Um and it has to be submitted to the personnel

board by email and by regular mail addressed to the following. And that address was to me as the town attorney. Um and although I did receive an email from Mr. Liippard. I did not receive a uh letter from Mr. Liippard to this uh appealing the matter. So from a purely technical procedural matter um our argument is that his appeal is defective. Um just from that procedural uh issue although at the end of the day um beyond the procedural issue on the merits uh our view is it's pretty cut and dry. Um, and we think the board can make a call on both if it would like uh to do so. Um, I think that's that's pretty much it. Um, as to to where we are here. Um, I I do not believe that we need anybody to testify from the town. I think the documents speak from themsel for themselves. And I'm happy to Mike, if you're okay with that, to yield the floor to uh Mr. Liippard to to address his uh appeal.

Well, first we'll accept the exhibits 1 through 14 into evidence and Mr. Liippard, you have the opportunity if you have any questions for Mr. Corbal who presented this or if you have anything you want to present to the personnel board regarding this matter. Uh no, I I did not bring any documents so I apologize for that. Um thank you Mr. Corville for the synopsis. Um, do I have a report? My report? Yeah.

Okay. Thank you. Um, page nine, question 18. Did not intend in any way, shape, or form to obscure my record from the Metro National Police Department. This is a simple misreading of the question. You have my sincerest apologies. Um, I take responsibility for that. Uh the instructions of the packet did say without a doubt to read thoroughly and carefully. Um I did not read that question as thoroughly and carefully as I thought I had. Um I stand by my record to be completely honest. Um I'm now 40 years old, father of two. Um that record has made me into the man that I am, good and bad. So in exhibits five, six, seven, eight, whatever they are, uh that Mr. Corbal uh gave to you. Um it is incredibly one-sided. Um only focusing on the negatives in my disciplinary file. Um there's no mention of the numerous times that I was named precinct officer of the month, departmentwide officer of the month, the number of advanced trainings uh that I received as a member of Metro Nashville Police Department. Um, I served in both patrol, a proactive enforcement team that we called Flex, um, crime suppression unit, which is a precinct based narcotics, uh, SID, specialized investigations, and then finally with records. I was assigned to records following a 2017 OIS officer involved shooting. Um, that's why I personally stand by my record. You don't have to submit a a request for Metro Nashville to get my disparity file. You can Google it and it's all public. I stand by that. I stand by the mistakes that I've made because it's helped me to become the person that I am

today and I kind of like the person I am today. Um, without a doubt, I was a young officer in a metropolitan police department, uh, in which Kalia has told them numerous times through the accreditation process that they are too heavy-handed with discipline. And that is directly from a associate that I went to the academy with that was on the accreditation unit. Uh, obviously he's not going to fly up to testify for something like this. Um, furthermore, the Metro Nashville Police Department um, operated very differently than Pennsylvania based police departments. Here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, police officers have a statutory right to avoid suspensions for Let me rephrase that. In order to be suspended in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, you have to meet very specific criteria. I had no protections in statute at the Metro Nashville Police Department. It was a very coercive environment. Um, I don't expect any of you to uh have done any research on it, but right now the uh attorney general's office of the uh the state of Tennessee has an open investigation into the disciplinary practices of the Metro Nashville Police Department going back a number of years. uh everything from uh excuse me, favoritism uh avoiding repercussions for high ranking official based on age, gender, political affiliation, religious affiliation, and so on. None of that is I'm not saying any of that to dissuade you or to or to try to say some of these mistakes were not my fault. They absolutely were. I was working in a department where I thought at the end of the day that the work I was doing was more important. And as I

aged within the police department, I matured as both a man and a father. I realized that the method was become was far more important than the result. Uh it was actually a question that I answered in my interview uh to the panel very first one of the very first questions. It took a while obviously for me to figure out that the uh the policy side of things was more important than the end result. Um and again I stand by those decisions because it made me who I am today. Um again all this information came to light as far as a uh following an OIS. Um, to put it in context so that you all understand, within the Metro Nashville Police Department, in order to be terminated for bad conduct, you have to receive 31 suspension days in a 12-month period. What's not listed in that packet is I took 20 suspension days over the course of eight years. everything from being uh I missed a court date to um my largest uh suspension which was an 8-day suspension for decision-m for flat out what my partner did.

I didn't hear you sir.

Uh for flat out what my partner did and if the department had requested any additional documentation at uh from me at any time, I could have provided as such to demonstrate uh to further demonstrate the environment that I was working in. Um, again, not not to to try to dissuade or to pass blame because I certainly made some mistakes. Um, I was in uh in Mr. Corbal's letter, he states definitively that I took over 10 suspension days for excessive force. That is patently false. Much like with and Chief Hawk can attest to this, when you file a criminal complaint in the in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, you have to be very specific about the charges that you're um the charges that you're laying against somebody. Within a metro style Metro Nashville Police Department, those same principles apply. You can't throw the word excessive force or the claim excessive force when the internal process of the department itself found no issue with the use of force itself. I took an 8-day suspension for what chief can maybe he can explain it to you. It's called the Pennsylvania versus Mims case. I had a young man coming out of a high crime area match the description of robberies that was occurring in the area. He was driving a rental car which was consistent with the MO of the offender. He was slow to stop. Immediately uh verbally combative. I requested additional officers. When it comes to police work, once you have additional officers, certain folks take certain roles. I was acting as the contact officer, meaning I had primary contact with the offender, the driver. Uh I had no less than three additional officers that were there with me.

the young man. I had specific articulable facts at the time to request him to step out of the vehicle for my safety based on the totality of the circumstances. He refused to do so. My partner, Wes Mlullen, reached in and yanked this gentleman out of a car, which is in accordance with Pennsylvania versus Mint. There was no punches thrown. There was no taser, physically removed from the vehicle because he was resistant to the lawful orders of myself and my partner. I only became physically involved when he struck my partner in front of me uh recklessly. I would I would to be clear, he flung his arm, struck my partner. That's when I became physically involved. I took the 8-day suspension for my partner because he was related to a high ranking member of the police department. point blank period and I would feel free to uh forward any copies of any documentation that would be requested to to back that up. The environment in which I operated in Metro Nashville Police Department was very very forceful and the way that if you used your rights to appeal these interdisciplinary or interdep department disciplinary actions, you were then targeted for further action. So for example, um I missed a day of work. That's a one-day suspension. If I would have fought that, the department would have come back in turn with three, four, five, six, whatever the case, however many days suspension that they wished to to put on somebody. You didn't fight that internally because once you did, you were black. under advice of my then lieutenant the very first time I took a

suspension day for anything. I was told by my lieutenant Melvin Brown, "Do not fight this." And after I left the Metro Nashville Police Department, that same gentleman reached out to me and apologized and informed me that he wish I would have fought because once you have a reputation within a police department and and it it is it's the culture of of of law enforcement. Once you have a reputation, you are going to be targeted for further action. Point blank period. It just isn't how it is. Especially as a northerner in the south, a Catholic in the Baptist South. I was seen as a northerner as being brash, arrogant, whatever the case may be, because I came from a different societal norm than a lot of the people that I was dealing with. It got to the point where I as an officer when I would pull somebody over and pardon my language, I would say, "Listen, I'm not an I'm just from up north." And people would immediately relax because they know that because I found that as a way to build a rapport with folks to demonstrate that, hey, I might come off this way. But that's not the case. I was raised differently. My disciplinary file began with Metro Nashville Police Department after my sergeant found out that I was a Catholic and that I was heavily tattooed. Not heavily, but I had numerous tattoos. Shortly after that, I was being put in for things that he was aware of for months, minor things. So again, 31 days total in a calendar year to be terminated. I took 20 suspension days over the course of eight years. and I received suspension days for things that I received chief's coins and officer of the month uh awards for simultaneously one in one hand in the other. HR would laugh because when you go to sign for your days, they say, "How many Chiefs

coins have you got?" It was the price to pay of doing business, so to speak. Now, as a board, I completely understand why you see that and why you'd be hesitant, especially the chief. Nothing but respect, sir. Um, I understand the position that you are in as the head of a law enforcement agency and seeing that kind of baggage. The grand scheme of things, I think, are are important here. Um, when you're done here, if if you want a good read, I would uh Google Nashville Police Green Mile. Um, so in our old headquarters, when an officer was accused of anything serious, that officer would be decommissioned, gun and badge taken, authority taken, and they would sit in the front of the police headquarters next to the sex offender registration window for eight hours a day as a public humiliation for their alleged bad conduct. If anything I had done within my career was egregious enough to have ended up on the green mile, I'd be the first person to agree with everything that you're saying. And this is all circumstantial. I understand that you guys don't have access to all this information. I never was on quote unquote the green mile. The only time I was ever decommissioned as a police officer, had my gun and my my badge and my arresting power taken was for the eight-day suspension in which I took from for my partner. Again, I would gladly provide that copy of that that file to anybody because that 253 pages, that's really light to be honest. My shooting review uh of the officer involved shooting I was in in 2017, I believe, was about 800 pages. I was cleared both at the state, local, federal level. I wasn't even sued. That's how clean that was. Now, I understand as a as a as a personnel

board and as a as a representative of this community why some of that information would give you pause. The purpose of me coming here and appealing this decision was one because it was a it was it was a minor mistake, a misreading of the question on on my part, and I take full ownership of that. But I never intended in any way, shape, or form to materially or in any other way deceive or mislead the Macless Police Department. I got out of law enforcement for a number of years. Even after all that, after the social media, the threats to my life, the threats to my family, had to move, first person in the state of Tennessee to buy a house under a trust because of what was happening. It's now a felony in the state of Tennessee to do what people did to me and my family. And at the end of the day, I still want to serve people. I've paid probably the third highest price there is in this in this field short of serious injury and death. I've watched my friends die on this job. I've watched them burn to death in a in a patrol vehicle pinned between a a suspect's vehicle and a telephone pole. And I still want to be here and do this. Am I perfect? Far from it. But I'll tell you right now, those 11 disciplinary actions that Mr. Corbell has referred to and that you have access to in front of you, one I would say take that with a grain of salt because the winner gets to write the narrative after a war. I think everybody kind of understands that one. So, they get to write get up how they see fit because I couldn't fight it, was told not to. And then I'm here because I have a passion for protecting people. Nothing I've done. I've done project management, construction for a number of

years. Nothing I've done suits me like this. And if you ask anybody that I listed as a contact, anybody I worked for, you ask any of the people that wrote me up in this binder, if I if I wouldn't be the officer that they would want standing next to them if something bad happened, I would be absolutely shocked because yes, I have my faults. But I would also argue to you and anybody else that sees my record and and has pause that as a 40-year-old man who's been in and out of this this field now who's paid the third probably third highest price that there is to have for doing this job and doing nothing wrong. I was cleared. Couldn't even catch me speeding that day. That's how clean it was. I know what it takes. I know that the sacrifice I didn't try to mislead you. I stand by my record. I am sorry that I did not thoroughly read that question. And I understand Mr. Corbal's perspective. I understand your initial decision. I understand Chief Hawk's desire to not have the baggage. The point of me coming to this appeal was hopefully to to ask for some grace. I made a mistake. I own it. I misread the question. But I put my record up against any young brand new person out of the academy because guess what? I've made just about every mistake one of those young recruits is going to make. I've already learned. I've learned from my mistakes. I have the wisdom as both a father of of an older gentleman as a combat veteran.

I'm not I'm not asking you to overturn anything to look the other way on anything. I stand by my record. If if if you want to ask me anything about anything in that file, I I'll tell you every detail. I took a polygraph for the city of Pittsburgh this morning. I'll take another. I'll take one every day because that's what this job means to me. That's what helping people means to me. So, I do sincerely apologize. Now, Mr. Corbal brought up a technicality at the bottom of the letter that he referred to. The the board met what was it? September 16th, sir.

All right. I I got my email. I'll confirm. I think I think Yep. September 16th, 2025, the personnel board uh voted unanimously and based on that information, I I don't I wouldn't blame you either. Um when you control the information, you control the narrative. I can't hear you.

When you control the information, you control the narrative. And again, no fault of Chief Hawk, I completely understand his perspective. Um, if I was in his shoes, I' I'd probably have the same cause. All I wanted from this is a fair chance to try to get back into doing the thing that I was put on this earth to do. Um, but if we want to get into technicalities, Pennsylvania sunshine law requires for a special meeting to be held 24 hours advanced notice to be posted at the place of the location and to be published in a paid newspaper of significant circulation. Correct, sir. Mr. Corbal,

is that is that correct? Is it I mean I I don't think I'm on the stand. So I mean you can am I not I can advise the board as to what the sunshine law is. You go ahead sir.

Okay. So um in in preparing for this hearing um unfortunately without my counsel because again they're in depositions. Um, the Pennsylvania Sunshine law clearly states that for any official action to be taken at a special meeting, that meeting has to be posted no less than 24 hours in advance notice at the location of where the meeting is to be held and placed into a advertised in a newspaper, a paid newspaper of general circulation. I'm paraphrasing. Um, I've I've tried to check to find the advertisement in the periodical of paid periodical of of general circulation. Uh, from my research, I I think it f I found that uh the Pittsburgh Post Gazette is typically who the uh township of McCandless uses to post these uh public notices. Um, I searched the Pittsburgh Post Gazette website. I found the notice for today's hearing. I found no record on the on the Pittsburgh Post Gazette's um page uh web page of any notice given prior to the the September 16th meeting. Uh I then went to a website called public noticepa.com which tracks all public notices published throughout the state of Pennsylvania. Um, I've got nine pages going back the last 52 weeks of public notices that were put out by the uh township of McCainless. No notice for the September 16th meeting under the Pennsylvania sunshine law. Any official action taken at a meeting that is not consistent with the sunshine law would be null and void.

if we want to get into technicalities. So, if the board did not properly advertise the special meeting on September 16th in accordance with state law, then any official action taken at that time, i.e. my disqualification in general, would be null and war. Um, yep. Uh, let's see. As far as subsection 206 of the of the township code, um, Chief, can I ask you a couple questions since you've completed my uh my background?

Thank you. Um, is there any indication that I am a habitual user of intoxicating liquors andor drugs? I'm going to object that we did. That's not We're not making that argument. We're making the argument that there was a material misstatement. What relevance does that have to this hearing? This hearing is about your disqualification for misstating on your application. So, what relevance would that have, sir? Well, m Mr. Horrible quoted subsection 206 of the township code uh in reference to my disqualification saying that I did not meet the criteria of sub section 206. The good the good moral character the good moral character. Correct. Yes,

that's the only section. Correct. So nothing around uh intoxicating liquors

to sustain sustain the objection. I mean this has this has nothing to do with with this hearing. Um okay. Uh with that being said, since the uh objection has been sustained, um that will complete my testimony. I just ask at at the end once you've reached your decision and I'm sure that you call me back in um if I I just request that I could be given the chance to speak one last time after the decision is read if that's okay. Your time to speak is is now, sir. Now we if there's going to be any closing argument perhaps.

Okay. If you have anything to say right now, if if you're done, I was going to ask the the town solicitor whether or not he had any questions for you. Okay, by all means, let's press on. Let's press on then, sir. Go ahead. Okay. I have no questions for Mr. Libert, but I do um have a rebuttal witness, if you will, based on the argument regarding the Sunshine Act. Well, before we get to that, there's a question from the panel here. They want to understand exactly, Mr. Liippard, how you misunderstood the question.

To be completely honest, I was working night shift at the time. Um, I filled out a number of these applications as of late. Um, so I got to the first part of the the question. Uh, I believe there's a comma. I assumed that I knew what the question was going to ask. That is on me. I take responsibility for that 100%. Um, and I assumed I knew what the question was asking and I answered it on that assumption. What did you think the question was asking? Uh, to to be honest, I I don't remember specifically in that moment what my what I thought the question was asking. I do apologize.

I mean, I'm reading the question here and it's pretty clear. It says, "Have you ever been discharged?" comma has to resign comma furoughed comma or put on inactive status for cause or subject to disciplinary action while in any position. Sir, I'm I'm not arguing with you that the the question is not clear. Okay. I I'm I'm saying that I made a mistake because I am a human being. And and in terms of the the 11 different things involving discipline, do you agree they were disciplinary action? Oh, I certainly do. Yes, sir. Okay. Any other questions from the panel? We don't have any other questions. You want to You have a rebuttal witness? I do.

Okay. All right. I like to call town manager. No. Sure. John Schwen. Oh, jeez. The way you looked at me. Anyway, um John, uh you heard Mr. Liippard's testimony around the uh Sunshine Act and he alleged that the town uh failed to advertise the September 16th meeting. Um can you speak to that? Certainly. John, could you uh You should probably come to the mic.

Hello everybody. John Schwen, town manager. Uh, here's a receipt from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. Order number 197407, run date 9-14, cost $133. Public notice hereby given that the town of McCandless Personnel Board will hold a special meeting 5:00 p.m. Tuesday, September 16th, 2025 at Macccanas Town Hall, 9955 Grubs Road, Wexford, PA 15090 for the purpose of reertifying the police hiring eligibility list. What day was it published on? That's published run dates on 9-14 which is more than 24 hours prior to the 16th. So, so I would uh Is that an email, John? Is that what you're reading?

This is We also get proof of publication. So, if we need to enter a copy, is that a proof of publication? You're This is a proof in the email, but we also have a physical copy, too. Okay. So, we'll make I I would uh I would ask that we mark the email and the proof of publication as exhibit 15 um and enter that into the record. John can print that off for everybody and and pass it out.

Thank you. Before you before you sit down, court reporter reminded me of something. Would both you, Mr. Liquard, raise your right hand. You be sworn in that the information you provided this afternoon is true and correct. So, could you please swear in that? You've already testified, but we want we want you sworn in. Understood. Uh I do. I do. Raise your right hand. Yep. Do each of you solemnly swear the testim shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And so that you shall answer to God on that last great day. I do. I do

and the information provided up until through the afternoon has been true and correct. Okay. Thank you. I have no further questions for Mr. Schwin. Mr. Libert, do you have anything further to present this order? No, sir. Thank you for your time. Okay. All right. Let's uh recess to executive session and we'll be back shortly. Thank you. Repeat the motion.

Yes, please. Dismiss the appeal and uphold the disqualification. There a motion. Make that motion. Second. All in favor? I opposed. I have Hearing journey stops recording to motion to journ.

Yeah. Uh sorry, chief just start. Yeah. Keep going. A motion to journ the meeting. There's public comment. Yes, there's public comment after the enduring the hearing. The hearing is adjourned. The meeting the meeting is not. Yep. So, is there any public comment for the uh for the meeting? All right. Motion to adjourn the meeting. I make a motion to All in favor? Opposed? All right. The meeting is adjourned. I need to turn this thing off.