City Council - Special Meeting

Welcome, welcome, welcome everyone to a special  committee of the whole meeting. It's Tuesday,   April 28th at 6:55. Eddie, would you call the  role? Cob here. Larson here. Posh here. Here.   Colland here. Huda here. Stone here. All right.  So, what we're doing today is finishing up our   fiveh hour meeting from April 19th. Um, we have  one item left. Uh, and well, really two because   you know the wrap up which we'll do and um uh  I think we were on I'm going to move this up a   little. Procedures. Yeah, we were on council  policies, procedures, and rules. Um our law   director is here with us to keep us focused and on  the right side of everything. Um I'll just quickly   recap what we've done already. So we talked about  uh the role of city council and we kind of divided   that into formal and informal roles. formal being  what you would find in the in the charter and   informal just what council people generally do  outside of their um charter responsibilities. We   shared our personal vision statements with each  other which helped us get an idea of where we're   all coming from so that you know when we're coming  up with ideas and and talking we have a kind of an   understanding of what's behind that. And I think  I have a little bit of Add's thing going on.   I stay away. Don't play. No, no, no. It's it's  it's um we talked about um our kind of overview of   u what we thought the administration was working  on for 2026. Craig C put together a very extensive  

um almost almost unabbridged list of um what  the administration is working on and that was   good for us to know. And then we talked about  our legislative goals. Um, Councilman uh Posh   suggested that we kind of grabbed uh or at least  elevated our two most important u legislative   initiatives. I'm assuming from that part of the  conversation that we all agree that we're going   to be the ones responsible individually for our  legislative initiatives. And um we also decided   that we would experiment maybe that's yeah with  a a new form of committee uh structure next month   and perhaps beyond where we just need committee  the whole which can I just clarify for my own   sake. Um so before we had you know the second  Tuesday was you know three different comm or   Monday was three different committees the fourth  was another three committees and then planning   development was on Tuesday. I I guess what I'm  wondering is are we sticking with those three on   those specific dates or is it just going to  be if you have something for your committee   I can put it on any of those particular like say  like you know on the on the first Monday I'm like   hey we're having a meeting next week anyone have  any topics for your specific Yeah I mean I think   before the end of the month we should see you  know everybody's still going to be responsible   for their agendas obviously or their topics But  if like if three committees aren't going to meet,   I don't think we need to meet four, you know,  four Mondays in a month. Well, that's what I'm   saying. But but we may want to just, you know, do  as much as we can on on say the second Monday. I'm   just throwing this out there, but um so like for  example, we've got our May first May meeting on  

the 4th, which would mean that our first committee  of the whole is on the 11th of May. Um ordinarily   who would be on ordinarily that would be housing  and building uh community relations community   relations and finance I believe. No no no that's  the other way around municipal municipal services.   So do we want to stick to those or if there  are things that come out of this meeting on   Monday that we need to address sooner rather than  later we can put that on. I mean it's helpful to   have to know you have a slot um especially if  you're inviting people to come in and speak.   um or prepare presentations to have that uh you  know of sort of a beach head to know that that's   your time but be flexible also. I I agree with  that and I think we've had a nice cadence the   last couple months of just having a month between  to work on things et like knowing that we have   that space. I want to raise that I think the one  issue is the planning and development committee.   So I mean I would suggest on that if maybe we can  just insert that like if we can check the agenda   right on the second Monday like if we could do  the landmarks commission if we have time you   know we're we're planning essentially like a two  to three hour committee of the whole meeting right   like you could tell me for either one like if you  So that's what I was thinking right um because we   will have with the zoning code update I just feel  like we're going to have a a regular cadence and   it would be easier to slot in when there's extra  time or create some time as we go along as aside   from so for the time being let's just keep it  stick to the three and three you can slot in   where you need to okay can can we talk a little  bit about about some logistics I mean so these   really aren't committees in a committee it is  really just committee as a whole with agenda items   with agenda items who with the chair expected to  run the discussion the discussion yeah What who  

are the voting members then? Everyone committed  because it's committee of the whole. Okay.   Although typically you don't do a lot of voting  in committee. Consensus contributors. But everyone   is a member of of the committee of the whole.  So instead of So now we do vote in committee   of the whole. I mean you know to move something  out of committee. So would we just do something   by motion if we're like if you want legislation  brought like if you're saying Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Yeah. By motion. Yeah. That's I mean I guess I  guess that's what we're doing. Yeah. I I don't   we have to have a vehicle that we have already in  our committees where we move legislation forward.   So for betting to loss, we'd still need to do that  at that level, right? But we're just taking out   that that other step, you know, which is not  then you'd have to, you know, if it was just   three people and sometimes the committees don't  vote technically or formally. Um, and I think   that that is available to the committee of the  whole and it's easier to follow in the committee   of the whole than in a committee I a different  committee as well. Okay. Gotcha. All right. So um,   does that answer your question? It does. But  then we also have this trial that I think we   want to try to do for the parks and wreck and how  we incorporate them into that meeting as well,   those late those lay members. Do we still want to  try to do that or would we still have a distinct council parks and recck committee and then  a distinct lay group? I mean I thought the   pilot project was to do it with that committee  and then see how that goes and then we'll but  

we do that inside the yes the council meeting  as a whole. No reason to separate the I mean   unless somebody else has Um, so we were talking  about uh rules, practices, procedures. Um, Joe,   you were the last person that spoke. Is that true?  Yeah. And what was your main topic? I'm sorry. Uh,   I think it was committees, right? Yeah, that's  right. It was really it was the well actually it   was the committee structure that you know that  we decided to move um towards committee of the   whole and then also the committee and um resident  advisory group. Um so those those two and did you   have anything else on on your list of you know for  discussion? No, I think those those were the Yeah,   those were my issues. All right, then let's  move on to Sarah and we'll just about Sorry. Everybody else get ready for your turn. Did  I have my turn already? I can't remember. No,   you didn't. Actually, you literally wrote down one  thing on your processes and procedures, which is   anything that will make us have less committee  meetings, which I think we accomplished. So,   done. Moving on. Craig doesn't have to go now.  I would just say that the um and maybe this will   naturally happen if we're in the committee of  the whole, but finding ways to align the work   of the committees across the committees. I mean  the the example I keep using is is our our two   studies the housing and zoning um code studies  but that um you know I mean that's where I think   really collaborative work comes from is when  the committees are saying well you're doing this  

you're doing this they're you know we need to plan  together in some way and u it may be that we have   naturally created it in the committee of the whole  I think we have um and maybe using that time to to   continually check back and say what are the main  things what are the three main things that we're   working on together. Um, and they those can change  over one thing, you know, but preserving that time   um to to have those discussions I think is really  important because these are very diligent commu   uh committees but we don't always know that we're  you know so that's really all I had. Jessica. So,   actually, that's a great segue to want to I think  my frustration or something that I want to figure   out how we do this better is that I feel like  each of us, it's it's complicated because each   of us are doing our own work to move things  forward. We're also all answering constituent   emails and directing that into city staff as we  see appropriate, but we don't always know like   what is happening. And so I think I brought this  up the last but just a few examples. We all get a   constituent email. It's should be going let's say  to director clingcale, right? I email her, but I   don't know that there's six other council members  that email her and I don't know. Okay. Wait, wait.   And I don't know if director clings scale has  gotten back to the resident to me. So like there's   all this a little bit of like not knowing what's  going on. So that's on a resident email. But also,   you know, for example, and I'm not singling  you out, but just, you know, you said, "Oh,   I'm meeting with the chief about a few different  things." or you know for example when I met with   the administration to talk about the potential  legislation on flock like how do we update each   other as we're doing like working in our channels  and you know one of the just I'll the one thing I  

thought might help is kind of like an FYI email  to everyone and I Jim you suggested maybe BCCing   everyone just an update so there's there's that  but also there's also the the question of how we   get information back from the administ ration  if somebody's work you know for like director   cling scale right if she's responded but how do  we know everybody knows director any thoughts   yeah that's you um where are we at on with with  that kind of a thing well I mean an email that   includes everybody isn't a violation in and of  itself um until somebody responds um and that's   where we're at right now yeah so I mean I I I  don't love the the BCCing everybody um method,   but I understand the the point that you're making.  I'm not sure whether there's a a mechanism to work   through the clerk. Um and I think one of your  suggestions in your comments was also um some   updates from council leadership related to their  didn't get to that yet, but yeah. Well, I mean,   so by the same token, I think, you know, it may  be that there's a way to accomplish that with some   um formalized emails that everybody knows are  informational only and not to be replied to with   some of the language maybe pumped up a little  bit that you had suggested. Um, I think the   BCC is just a little dangerous because it's so  easy for somebody to um, reply or just share a   thought and they, you know, suddenly are replying  to everybody and um, and you have a a pre-arranged   discussion of the council's business by a majority  of the members. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. But at BCC,   you're not replying to everybody. You're replying  just to that one person that sent it. Yeah. Yeah.   But what I'm hearing is the main thing is like  we can sendformational emails. For example,   dear council colleagues, I'm working on this piece  of legislation. Here was what landmark here's what  

was shared by the landmark commission. You know,  I'm letting you know that I'm working on this. Do   not respond. Do not respond. And and and to that  point and to the point of that you only respond,   that's true. But if we're if you're using  a mechanism where you're bcccing everybody   so everybody's aware, now you have a conversation  going. Um, so, uh, I I think you're going to find   that the committee of the whole meeting structure  is going to alleviate a lot of the concerns about   sort of knowing where people are. Maybe not each  um, example that you provided in your in your   comments like the constituent communications are a  little bit trickier. I'm not sure what the answer   is there. Um, but I think that a lot of the other  um a lot of those other concerns and understanding   where the committees are, understanding  what other council members are doing with   u staff members and the administration, I think  a lot of that will start to to be updated on a   natural regular basis when you're having your  committee to hold meetings. Go ahead. So,   one of my suggestions on that with constituent  emails, um, is currently if they're emailing. Okay, so here's the here's the kind of hard part.  If they're emailing you guys individually, that's   kind of the harder issue. If they're emailing  that council email address that we could include,   say Todd and Mac on that like list so he would  get those emails and if it's something like like   you said with public works, he can input 90% of  the time and then you don't even have to bother.   But I Yeah, but that's only for when they email  the council as a whole. So I don't know about the   other question. Go ahead. Okay. So I think it's  okay. So we all we all earlier in this meeting a   couple days ago outlined our roles. You know, one  of what I believe my role as a council person, my   perspective is if someone reaches out to us, even  if they have seven council members, I will always,  

if not always, just about 99% of the time, reply  just back to the constituents, show some empathy,   try to help them as an individual, and just  sometimes I have to remind them, you know,   we we're a body, we're an individual. I'm not part  of the administration. And generally about half   of those emails are emails that really should  be directed to the administration and I and I   send them to Todd. More than half but okay. Okay.  Well, I mean the issue here is people expect you   to do something and so maybe they're going to  get seven responses that all go to Todd and I   don't have a problem with that. And I will know  by when Todd responds back he will say, "Yeah,   already working on this." Which is great.  But sometimes he doesn't respond because I,   you know, people, yeah, he's he's one of  the well to me, but he's one of the people   that I have found to be very reliable in this  administration. Um, and sometimes it's like there   was one that came in regarding the neighbor  that we all got yesterday, I believe. I Kim,   I believe her name was possibly. You're brilliant.  Yeah. And it's like, well, you know, I see the   mayor is not located listed on this and he is  our safety director, but we let's but you know,   I'm very sorry you're going through all this.  Let's see if the mayor's action center can   take care of it because this is an administrative  issue and not a legislator. And my point was not   to say that we all shouldn't be responding to the  resident. My point was to avoid having city staff   receive seven emails from us. So for the same  matter, right? And and again, I don't know if   I'm concerned about that. Maybe Todd's okay  with it. Maybe, you know, I don't know. Well,   I'll tell you what. I think Todd's giving us a  report on Monday. Okay. Oh, that's right. We did   say let's, you know, let's see what he says.  And and then back to the council, you know,  

council work. I think your point is well taken.  Like what does it look like to have a regular   cadence and how does that increase, you know, the  regular sharing of communication? I guess the only   thing I would push on is if we could like if we  are and I think Craig did this and I I've done   this, but if we are like requesting legislation  to the legislation email, I would love to have   us all CCD on that so we know like those requests  have gone through. Um, and maybe like similar if   there are other matters and I know like I'm just  using my best judgment like if I'm emailing the   administration to get their like to ask a question  of the mayor or the law department and I'm ceing   all counsel because I'd like you all to see the  response, you know, just have that in mind as   well. That makes sense. Um, I don't know I don't  know if this exists and Addie might have a better   handle on it, but I'm wondering for both of those  scenarios, um, the constituent communications and,   um, say legislation request from council members,  if there's a way to auto populate some sort of   um, universally accessible document that would  indicate what those are, like when the requests   were submitted. you know, it could just be real  simple or or it might link to an email. Um,   I don't know what may exist to automate that, but  that way you could have access to that information   essentially in real time without communicating  on an ongoing basis to all of council, which   is where I think, you know, some of the risk.  You know what the solution is? It's laser fish,   but I've said that for three years now. What is  that? Laserfish is a like project like workflow   management and like repository system that  like tracks you know where something is in a   pro like so if it's contract or legislation or  whatever if you have a login you can see where  

something is in the system where it's you know  butus which is sort of yeah they do the same   there's a lot of different there's other ways yeah  monday.com is another one that comms currently   uses I personally am not a fan of monday.com  I think it's very complicated and convoluted   I don't think it's very user friendly.  Um, which I think would kind of blame. So,   I guess to just to to that. So, I'm thinking  like maybe exploring something like that would   um help to address those concerns and the need  for information and awareness without, you know,   creating legal risks or OMA problems.  since Addie's leaving. Um, you know,   I I I on my list I'm only reading this because  she's going and is there anything anybody I put,   you know, clerk of council issues like and by that  not with her. That's why I changed the wording. I   was like talk to you offline. But anything that  anybody wanted to say like things about you know   the processes that we use which anything anything  of that the other thing well I just want to say   this because I talked to um Nick down in it who  does our um applications now he's fantastic and   um just I talked to him a little bit about how  I don't think civic clerk clerking software is   being utilized as much as I think it can be  to help us in this process. Now, I would love   to be a trainer to you guys. I don't know how to  train people. I've like in terms of like using the   software. Now, they have great webinars online and  everything like that, but he's going to explore it   to himself. Take a look and see what he can find  out in terms of what's like a good method that you   guys could learn to not and not just you also  department heads as well because a lot of that   request kind of stuff can also go through that.  There's like a a great system they have. So, are   you saying you know you you you know how to use it  but you don't know how to teach it? But yeah, it's  

a little Yeah, it's But but he does but he should  like he's going to like take a look at the actual   system, but he's he's familiar with systems like  it and has done. So maybe we set something up with   him. Well, yeah. So I'm going to let him explore  it for a little bit first and I will get back to   you on that in terms of how that is used because  I we have it. You pay for it and I don't think   it's being utilized as much as it could be. Um,  and then there are certain things that like you   guys like our you have there's a board portal that  you guys can access that has all of the, you know,   documents for all the agendas and minutes. You  can take your notes um, in there and it, you know,   if there's anything confidential that only council  is privy to that's not going to be public, it'll   be on the forward portal as well as so it's not on  the public portal, but it's on yours. Just that's,   you know, Oh, go ahead. One of the things before  Addie goes really quickly that I would like her   input on if we get a chance to talk about this  in the future is the application process when   there's a council vacancy. Yeah. It's on my  list and so I really feel we need to have   the clerk involved with that. Yeah. And HR is of  course when we get an HR director on board. Yeah. Uh thank you. One other thing was  just and and Bill alluded to it,   but I would love a regular update to council  from the leadership meetings to the extent   that that can be shared in email. I'm not  sure, you know, like what's discussed.   Um I think a a slightly a bridged version  of that could be a memo. Not even a memo,   just I was no not like an entire transcript,  but just a sense of so we can like one if we   had asked for something to be discussed,  we could know if you got to it, but also  

we can know what your you know what the priorities  are, what came up. Yeah, I think we can do that. Anything else? The the only other thing  is the calendars. I I spoke with Addie and   um Gail and I am going to just I I haven't  sent the email to director Proser yet,   but I just want to see if there's a way  for the city calendars on the website,   but it doesn't get populated on our Outlook  calendars and we don't connect our Outlook   calendars with our personal Gmail. There's  just a lot of calendars and there's a lot of   meetings and I just want to explore with  the IT folks if there's a way to get us   more streamlined on calendars. That's not our  processes or anything. That's just a tech. I Jim asked if we should if they should give us  all VPN access because I think if we all had   VPN access, we'd be able to access our calendars  would then be able to sync with the city outlook,   our city outlook calendars. But I mean it is very  problematic for me because I've got all my work   calendars with a couple positions, personal  calendars all in one system. Okay? And then   I have to manually right type in everything  for city cam when all these calendar systems,   Outlook, Apple, they're all designed to talk to  each other. Why don't we throw that switch in our   exchange server to make that happen? And it's  probably in the same thing. Well, why don't we   have two-factor authorization authentication and  stuff right now, which we've been dinged on year   after year after year. I just think it's just I  have it on mine to factor. Yeah. Really? Yeah.   I was told to get it done. See, Nick down in it  or give back out. I don't know where it stands,  

but how many else? Yeah, I had there's a way to  disable it. like not disable it, but there's a way   to like be if you're on this computer. Oh, yeah.  You don't have to log in on this computer, but if   you log in on a different device, no, I have it.  That's right. The authenticator. For the record,   I'm not disabling multifactor authentic. No, I'm  just saying you don't need it once you're I have   to do that. Uh yeah, that was just one the number  authenticator do you have initiate present but not   a two-actor authentication? Well, that's that's  good enough. It's probably better actually. So   someone from it lets me know. We got a few more  and mine's a little bit long so brace yourselves.   But go ahead, Craig. Oh, I thought we covered  mine. We're done with anything that sticks. Oh   yeah, they cut down on the number of committee  meetings. I think going to this committee of   the whole is a great idea if uh if no one really  has anything on their agenda that evening. Um and   we're just able to move on and and condense the  time rather than showing since all of us are now   coming to all of these committee meetings. And  the other thing about keeping a keeping everyone   a breast of what's going on is I think these  committee of the holes are also an opportunity to   um talk about uh what we may have done in the  prior week or there may be some events coming   up to fill other council members in. You know,  for example, um you know, Noble Neighbors is   coming up this week or we were there or there's an  event at one of the parks or something like that.   Uh and I and um you know I think not to you know  denigrate about what happened in the past I think   that some council members weren't sharing a lot  of things beforehand because they were worried  

someone else was going to take credit for their  legislation or they wanted to have an event all   to themselves. And I my sense is that no one  really you know we don't have that kind of   sense of secrecy or ownership or whatever going  on there's some people are competitive you know   that's I'm very competitive but you all could be  on the legislation. Um can we I think that's a can   we put that as like standing agenda items just  like coun a council update and events like so   we just Yeah. I'm going to write to Annie. Um, and  if we don't have anything, we don't have anything   an opportunity to share, you know, also what what  what's on your mind. Um, so I'm I'm really looking   forward to this right now. That's how we're doing  things. Yeah. But we won't I don't also feel that   we will be as rushed as it seems that we are when  we're just having that committee of the whole   meeting right before the city council meeting. And  I think it has been a bad move when we've run over   and we keep the public waiting now. So hopefully  we won't have to We'll be pretty good about that.   What I want to do when if I see a big bus coming,  I I I'm going to have Eddie email you and say,   "Could we start at 5:30?" I because I really don't  want I mean, if if it's like everything's got to   be on there and it's got to be it's got to be  now. I think we we we have the half hour unless   somebody has a an objection to that. I I would  never use it for no reason, but it has happened   where we've just been loaded. Had a question  maybe. Um at the meeting two Sundays ago, council   um sort of agreed to uh do a two-month trial on  the committee the whole and I'm listening to all   these questions about how this might be operated  and how it's going to be structured. And I'm just  

wondering if with two short months coming up,  July and August, where you're going to have   um reduced meeting schedules, would people  be open to trying this through September or   something like that? Because I feel like it might  take you a little while to get it rolling. Well,   guess that would align with our plan to have a  another council workshop in September. So, we   could use that council workshop to evaluate how it  worked. Another workshop. you. Yeah, we discuss. Sure. That was I I think I think that's wise. Um  my my I know you hate to preempt these things,   but my sense is this is going to work out. Um  Gail, thank you. Um I really feel that we need to   work on council rules. I don't expect it to happen  this evening, but I would like to list off some of   the factors that I'd like to see incorporated or  at least that we discuss amongst ourselves. See if   we need it or not as a rule. The adoption of the  rules would include professional conduct including   respect and civility, respect for and appropriate  response to public input in meetings and on social   media, appropriate council comments, ethical  standards, conflict of interest, compliance   with legislative processes, communication and  accessibility, responsible use of resources and   administration staff time, collaboration and  teamwork, continued professional development,   rules regarding campaign during council meetings  and adherence to council procedures and subsequent   consequences have not followed and attendance  requirements. Um a lot of these have developed   as of what we experienced over the last four  years. It has nothing to do with the con the   makeup of this council. It is what we experienced  over last four years. So let me so where I think  

this could go and probably I would say should go  and not just that but what in these disc in this   particular discussion on this particular topic  of rules procedures and practices um I think   this is going to be an administrative services um  endeavor you know obviously in committee of the   where I still think the people on the committee  and you are on that committee should do well we   all are not for the moment right right but but  I don't but but the distinction I want to make   here is is that the three of us should be doing  the work and presenting it to the four of them I   don't think because I wouldn't want you know I  wouldn't want just because I'm on well on the   planning and development committee to just all  of a sudden have to be doing what you're doing   or even you doing. You know what I'm saying? So  that's that's what I think we should do with this   exercise is is say does everybody agree we should  have these rules about conduct and so forth and   if the answer is yes then we put it together  maybe we make it part of 111 maybe we make it   um you know what we did what we what council  did standing rules some kind of standing rules   um but that's decided um you know the author is  so to speak or the person whose idea it is puts   it together for a meeting where we go into it um  you know more deeply there's been a lot of work   done already where we collected different cities  rules and um we start and the standing rules   that used to exist so um I have a lot of that  here already so that would be my first request  

secondly we need to review the council vacancy the  application process. It should include a revised   application and a request for assistance from HR,  especially requesting background checks upfront   or from applicants so they know that that's what  we're proposing to do. And then I also is there   any comment on that? Yeah, I think it's uh Oh, go  ahead. Well, I think a couple hands shot up in the   air. So, um, yes, but also lay out kind of what  our expectations are. Yes. Which I don't think   is really, um, been out. I mean, there's there's  discussions within the community that this I use   representation matters. Okay? We we've heard this  over and over, okay? But it's it's representation,   but it's also the quality of the candidate. It is  what the candidate brings to the table. Um, and   it's it's almost online where it's like it doesn't  matter. They don't have to know anything. They   don't have to understand finance. And I look at  we had an administration that was led by someone   that didn't have that operational experience that  could come in and we all voted for that individual   and look at where it left the city and we're sort  of little microcosms of that here. I mean you need   to have when you sit at this table you need to  have some qualifications and you know you know   maybe it's good to have a lawyer. It's good to  have an accountant. It's good to have someone   that maybe understands marketing. You need some  operational diversity, but also diversity. I think   when it comes to where you live, I think there's a  racial diversity that's necessary. I think there's  

a sex diversity that is necessary. I mean, it's it  it's great that we have another woman on council.   um that you know I think was was needed in this  last um but I think we also had a huge whis wish   wish list and those we we didn't necessarily get  the kind of candidates we wanted which is we we   kept on asking for for more people to to show  up. So so what I'm hearing is uh and we should   write write this down. So, we want to look at  the application. We want to come up with a list   of what we consider to be qualifications. Um, and  um, and then on the interview process, you know,   we So, here's the thing. We could put all this  stuff out there. We could put the roles and   responsibilities up there and somebody could drop  this into AI and come up with a a uh well they   wouldn't be coming up with it but AI could come  up with something that would just blow us away.   I mean, the fact is moving forward for every city  council in the world, not just the United States,   th this is going to be the great leveler and  and and and this is going to make interviews.   I think this is going to elevate, if anything,  the interviews. I I mean, I think it's great that   people have access to information, but that isn't  at the end of the day what makes you qualify.   So I think we need to talk about whether we want  to keep the interviews in executive session. Um and and and I think that's another you know  category of things. But that's if since this was   something you brought up, why don't you just put  together this this list of not just what needs to  

be reformed, but what you'd like to see as a as an  outcome. Well, I think that I'm sorry I'm going to   push back a little bit. I think that needs to be  a table discussion. Obviously, I'm talking about   But we need a we need a a starting point. That's  okay. A framework. A framework. Yeah, that's what   we need from I I just want to suggest a couple  other things is that I I think this is what you   like a job description, right? Like it's not just  qualifications like people need to understand what   this commitment is, what the commitment is. Um  I don't think people really understand what the   commitment is. Um you're getting a good dose of  Yeah. I you had an applicant come in a couple   years ago and essentially object because they  didn't realize everything that would be involved,   right? Like once they know, maybe they're not  going to apply. I mean, and again, we don't want   to discourage folks, but we also want it to be a  realistic expectation, right, on both sides. Um   the other thing um is a rubric for the selection  process. I think and obviously I I I guess that's   a question you know there's rubrics we use for  like evaluating consulting you know RFP responses   and things like that if we're doing a rubric  with an executive session is that subjected to   public disclosure I mean I wouldn't want something  like that to be public but I but I also feel like   we need a way to level set our own to asssure  that applicants will have it's not just our you   how we feel in that moment. There's actually  something that we're using. If you're creating   records that memorialize your decision-making  process, they're going to be public record   regardless of having been generated in executive  session. Okay. So maybe that that's something I   think we should discuss a little bit. Like what  does it mean? Like do we need uh maybe it's not a   rubric that we fill out. Maybe it's something that  we put on and say this is what you'll be evaluated  

by, you know, and to keep that in mind as we go  through the discussion. But that was something,   you know, again, I just want more transparency.  Well, Craig's making a face, so go ahead. No,   to me, keep in mind these are political  appointments. Yeah. Um and part of that also is   um our opportunity to select someone that we  want to serve with and it's different from   when candidates are running for office and we  don't have any you know say in that. So to me,   I think we just need to keep that in in mind and  and and and that also involves some to a degree   some subjective evaluation of everyone that  comes in. Is this someone that that you know   that that you can see yourself working with?  And I don't want us to lose, you know, sight   of that. Just like, you know, the the committee  appointments, you know, it's um that that we make,   there's a multitude of factors that that go into  that and and you know, just someone may look great   on paper and not necessarily they're not going to  fit in with the committee or um and so we haven't   appointed people because of that. And and I  agree and I don't know how we memorialize it   but I I want to Jim said something to this extent  right like wherever the appointee is has to fit in   with our expertise. So if we were six lawyers,  probably not looking for a seventh lawyer just   as a, you know, kind of like a blazing and Bill  definitely doesn't want seven lawyers, you know,   on council, but but that would be, you know, and  also what committee they're going to chair, right?   Like what is the chairmanship that's open for  that person or what expertise are they? So all of   that has to be in there. And then the last thing I  would say is do we want to consider making a like  

we have a residency requirement in the charter.  Do we want to consider saying things that we are   that would we would consider disqualifying whether  it's delin tax delinquencies? We can't do that. I   I don't know. So I'm just raising the question.  I don't I don't think I have a phone position   on either. So I I would say this that the the  charter um prescribed qualifications are really   the only technical qualifications for council  office um which is residency for 12 months and   elector status. Um, so beyond that, council could  come up with um, and you, as you said, it may be   something that you don't fill out, but it could be  like a list of qualities that would be important   to council or that council believes would be  useful. But I would just caution that um the more   uh strict you try to make the application of  that kind of a framework, the more opportunities   you're providing for somebody after the fact to  say, "Well, you said all of this sounds great,   looks great on paper, and then you picked this  guy, right?" Um, and I think there there's risk in   um, limiting yourselves. Um, because you have  the opportunity to have this conversation at any   time in connection with an appointment to fill a  vacancy. And as as Councilman Cobb said, you know,   it's there's a lot that goes into it. There's  a lot of subjectivity. Um, you can decide that   certain things are more important, less important,  but I would just be a little bit I would be   careful about limiting yourselves too much. Um,  I do think the job description doesn't limit you,   um, and probably is beneficial for applicants and  for for council in the city. Um, and then on the   background checks, um, that's not something that  people running for office are subjected to. I'm   not I don't think that means that it couldn't  be utilized. Um, but there are some legal   consequences in the employment context. I'm not  sure, frankly, how they play out in this specific,  

you know, unique role. Um, but you know, you  have to look at the Fair Credit Reporting Act   and and you're subject to um some pretty strict  requirements if somebody doesn't get a job because   of a negative um background check. I I would just,  you know, anyone that's applying for city council,   we shouldn't have to tell them you should  know what happens at a city council meeting.   We shouldn't have to tell them that, you know,  you should have a a um uh that your public life   should be above reproach that your you know that  your your financial tax affairs are taken care   of. You shouldn't have and I'm not suggesting  this this is covers any of the applicants.   I'm just throwing things out there that to me are  common sense that if I'm that if I'm applying for   um to serve on a city council a body  that you should have a a pretty pristine   um record. Do you work that into the expectations?  Mhm. rather than doing a background check. I I mean I I don't know. And I would also submit  this, but were it not for our last appointment,   I don't, you know, think that none of this would  have become an issue or it hadn't been an issue   over all of the prior appointments that had been  made to city council. And because this appointment   didn't meet the expectations of of some people  that all of a sudden it it's it's it's our fault   um that that we didn't make things clear enough  to people. I I don't know. Well, I just can I just   say something as an applicant? Um and this this  is goes back to the idea of of um really spelling   out the expectations. There's no mechanism as a  candidate here to ask questions if you're thinking  

about I mean there there was a statement saying  go ahead and call any councilman and they'll   talk to you. Well, if you're if you don't know a  council person you're going to and your candidate,   you'd be less likely to do that. So, I think  it's important that we provide that ability for   a candidate to connect with maybe it's the clerk,  maybe it's members of council so that they can   have that kind of conversation and and hear from  a person in addition to reading it on paper and   answer their questions because it might prevent  a lot of of the some of the issues that may come   forward here. Did anyone have to tell you that you  needed to prepare for this like a job interview   to show up professionally? Well, no, but I will I  will say work that you did. No, no, no. To the not   so much that, but understanding the workload,  understanding the committee chairmanships,   understanding all of those pieces of what would  you actually do and how your week would go.   Those are questions people who work, they need to  have those answers. And uh so that I think that's   a great point and I also think Bill's point was  really I mean the way you said it and and focused   it. I mean we do not want to put ourselves in  a position. I'm going to say I do not want to   put myself in a position where somebody's going to  say I checked all these boxes. What's up cuda? You   know I don't need that. Go ahead. So, if anybody's  listening, I mean, one of the things I listen for   when we're talking to a candidate is asking what  the job is about. I mean, you know, what is the   responsibility? What what do you expect of me? I  think you're the only person that you asked that   when you when we were sitting around this table.  And I will also tell you, I was also through an   appointment process surprised I got on. I was  surprised I was picked. But I will tell you I  

was put through the ringer in a nice way. I can't  tell you how many council members reached out to   me and they wanted to talk. They wanted to get  a lot more information. And I think that is and   I reached out too. I mean not that I was trying I  mean I knew two of you I think reasonably well you   know Craig and Tony because our paths had crossed.  Um, and you know, I had I learned an airfall,   but that may be us and there may be those people  who will feel intimidated by the idea of having   that who, you know, would be good candidates. So,  I'm just saying there if there's some way that it   could be understood as a candidate that you have  the right to and you're encouraged to have those   conversations, not just because you happen to  know somebody. That's a point well taken. And I   the opposite side of what Craig's saying is when I  applied and this must have been close to 15 years   ago or 10 years ago, they reopened the process  after they had gotten all the applications. There   were no um transparent interviews, which is why  I initially was pushing for League of Women Voter   interviews and there was no transparency about  the process. So I think that for like I would   like to nobody told me how I should prepare but  I would like to know what the process entails and   so I think having that clear from the outset is  also very helpful to know like how the decision   would be ultimately made and I would push forward  and we'll discuss it more but I would like to see   some sort of I I like the executive session  interviews but it would be good to have some   sort of public the application is is I think  poor. Yeah. um hasn't been updated in ever. The   executive session interview was very valuable  to know that that we were in this confidential   space to be able to ask the questions. Second  interviews, but we Okay. Yeah. You know, we we  

can't do this with every issue, but go ahead. If  I I would like to go back to since this is Gail's   time and comment about the civility piece. Can  Can I do that? Yeah. Yeah. Gale Gail still got   the floor. I think you're looking for feedback  on that. I would love to see that. And you did   provide some examples. Um I think that helps set  a tone for this council and for the community that   basically specifies we're sort of memorializing  how we're operating this year thus far. And   I think that's I think that's important. Um I  wouldn't necessarily count call them rules per se,   but it is sort of like what our expectations are  for each other. Um and the civility piece is huge.   Guidelines. Well, I think we come up with with  words on that. But I I I would love to see that   not for something that we can actually just act  on, which we do anyways, but so the community   really understands really what we stand for,  what we stand for working together. Well said. Um I still want to have an open meetings act  101 class. I would really like to see that get   scheduled with either staff or Mr. Funk, I'd  love to have him teach that class cuz he was   really good at ML. So, um, can we get CL credit?  I mean, if you want to, I'll take it, but if not,   I'm just kidding. And I do want to open up  the request to the Civil Service Commission   to review the salaries of the mayor and council.  I'm sorry. You want to do what now? Open up the   Civil Service Commission review process so that  they will look at salaries for mayor and counsel.

And I just have one, this is not on topic, but it  came across my email this morning and I it's from   a neighbor and it's something that's affecting  all of the senior citizens in this community   that own houses. And what she's wanting help with  and I don't know where to begin is she gets a lot   of unsolicited calls as do I mail sent to her  as do I asking to buy our homes and it's she's   starting to feel harassed excessively harassed.  So what she's asking is is there a possibility   of passing legislation to prohibit this type  of unsolicited contacts? Is there something in   place at the state level that we could refer  people to when they get a call like that? We   could just do a PSA and the e-news that this is a  number you call if you're being harassed by overs   solicitation. I'm nodding because I understand  the question. I don't know the answer, but we can   certainly take a look at that. All right. Thank  you. I'll send you an email to ask. Sure. All   right. Thank you. That's all I have. Very good.  Thank you for all the detail. Appreciate it. My turn. So my my my single most important thing  is the committees and I've only I think talked   about half of it and that is where we're working  with the you know hopefully maybe as a pilot the   um oh the um recreation parks the parks and  recreation advisor board. Thank you. Um I almost   think that our committees need to sort of follow a  model where they start with get some expectations   that's a standing committee. It's a standing  item. It's kind of like what what happens in   finance. You get your finance reports. You look  at the data. I think we need to start looking  

more at data and we need to be working with the  administration. I would love to be able to see if   this is a successful pilot to actually have our  committee staffed with admin with with people in   the administration. So this is sort of like we're  sitting on our own when we're doing legislation.   The administration does their stuff during the  day, but the committees are when we all kind   of come together and we collaborate. and I think  would answer a lot of the questions that have been   brought forward especially some of yours Jessica  about well I want updates about what's going on   now trying to do that in the committee meeting  of a whole might be difficult but you know let's   I mean I'm I I'm it seems like it's a solution  let's let's try some solutions if the solutions   don't work throw it out and find another one but  you know I am going to be meeting with the mayor   about this about seeing if if there's any way  that in some of these things that well especially   the finance committee I mean technically finance  committee doesn't have to be at our meetings but   they're there I mean I think the issue here is the  expectation needs to be that they need to be part   of this committee structure that that we're in  and they have a role in coming up with the agenda   as we do. So it's really a collaboration  between the administration and us. Well,   the charter now addresses that in article three.  It says, you know, administration shall I mean   I I don't I don't know the words memorized. Um  deliver proper director to a meeting by request   of council. you want it to be automatic, but we  don't I don't know that we want people there when  

we don't need them there. I think that's the  whole reason why we don't have that. I I don't   know if that's where you're going, but who  wants to waste anybody's time, right? Well,   you know, if they're not needed, they shouldn't  there there shouldn't be a need for them. But if   you look at the parks and wreck, I mean, it  really seems to me that members of the parks   and wrecks administration administration piece,  whether it's the director or assistant director,   needs to be staffed to that committee. So that's  how I mean the committee is useless if it's   not advising. It's an advisory committee. Okay?  There is no advising that's happening. Nobody's   reaching out to the parks and wreck advisory  board for anything. And these people feel kind   of lost. I mean, and I'm and I and I hate to be  picking on this one one particular committee,   but it would be like having a finance committee  meeting without having any financial reports or   a financial director. I mean, it there there  needs to be some kind of um I'm going to use   the word expectation. So, I'm just what I'm not  understanding is why isn't the council person   who's assigned to that committee asking for the  administration an administr a representative from   the administration to be there and is I mean you  got to have a problem before you go we need to   fix this and to me if if a if a council person was  getting denied that's a problem and now we have a   charter provision that says you can't do that. So  I still don't know exact I the pro if the problem   is that people aren't getting asked that's a  different problem then we can't get anybody to   come. But I just like to pick up on that because  I think this is a it's a step beyond that. If if   if we're going to be effective, we really need  to be walking handinhand with the staff that's  

going to implement the legislation we pass and we  need to and I believe they will benefit and we by   working together in a concerted continuous way.  Now maybe they don't have to come to the meetings,   but that committee that that staff person whoever  it is that's assigned to the committee is is a   guide to this to this committee. We need to know  what the administration's priorities are. Their   our priorities may be different, but I think  that ought to be part of their job to be able   to have regular planning communication with  the with the chair of the committee so that   we're not just off there doing whatever it is that  we're thinking, you know, should be done without   uh that kind of consultation. We're in complete  agreement. I'll just say I thought that's how we   were supposed to be operating. So that's how I'm  operating with I don't necessarily have that in my   committee just yet and and I think maybe it's also  you know me being on planning commission this was   a very natural move and I've worked with the staff  for so many years. Um but I but I I guess I just   didn't realize that this might be an issue and I I  have been concrete. Yeah. Still it still is. Yeah. I I think what's working for us for on the  planning and development side is co-creating   the agendas. We have I don't have like formal  update meetings, but we do touch base and we   schedule calls if we want to talk through,  you know, and I'll have a list of things. So,   um anyway, yeah, I think it's a good point.  Well, I think two things could happen. One is   that this we could bring this up with the mayor  at a leadership meeting and ask him to put it on   the agenda for the staff meeting that these are  our expectations. I mean and maybe even pull out   the charter provision. I I mean not to you know  just say we're just following the law to make  

their lives easier too. Then they have a direct  line to counsel you know codified ordinance books   and you could they don't exist. I I know people in  Lakewood that that just wave them. They wave them   at the meetings. They have like printed printouts  and they go, "No, no, no. Right here." Um,   but if there's another method to do this, tell  me what you like us to do. Well, I think between,   you know, I think there's certain meetings that  we all um committees that we control. Okay.   if we're still having committees if it's not but  I mean we certainly have have responsibilities.   Okay. And you know I'm going to try to find ways  in the next couple months to try to formalize this   with with the administration and you know and  and and treat this as a pilot. Okay. I mean can   we have you know dedicated people come to the  public safety committee meetings on a regular   basis and help and help us staff those? And  the same thing with the parks and wreck and   just sort of see I think municipal services  I mean I think there's a particular director   that probably should be at every single one of  your meetings. I'll just say for my committee   it hasn't been an issue anytime I've asked for  someone to attend. Um both director Gonzalez and   director shots have have always been amendable and  I know that that is different from years past but   um moving you know this year has been no issues.  You know I don't think that there's any um there   there's no staff member that works for this city  that has been um you know this year not wanting to   meet with us. I think everybody has been very open  and understanding and I think they're Yeah. I'm   not suggesting this because because I'm seeing bad  behavior. I mean I I don't want to wave that piece  

of paper. Yeah. Because I don't think Yeah. We we  sort of have a hammer which has oversight on it,   but I don't think we need to use the hammer.  Um, Bill, can can we use the section 111 in the   administrative code to to kind of put some meat  on the bones of what's in the uh what's in the   charter? Yeah. Yeah, I mean you could I don't know  specifically what you're thinking, but you don't   have any wording, but you can elaborate upon, you  know, a charter command or grant of authority in   an ordinance so long as you're not trying to do  something with an ordinance that's contrary to the   charter provision. You know what I'm saying? Now,  so in 111, we could put something in there that's   how how that charter provision that says that we  can summon Yeah. administration officials to our   meetings and actually put how that happens and you  know just put a little meat on the bones you know   cuz that's I mean your typical charter provisions  are a little bit on the general side you know I   mean I I guess the question is whether you want  to codify that in an ordinance or you just want to   set kind of an administrative policy I think the  running the gamut here yeah so I I just happen to   have have it pulled up and it's a council may by  ordinance or resolution require that all directors   and chiefs or their designates attend all council  meetings and or council committee of the whole   meetings and there's also provision there earlier  but again I I cannot imagine that under this   current administration that if you ask and I'm  really surprised if anyone's having trouble that's   but to me that's not the issue. The issue is we're  trying I think what well I I'd like to think what  

we're trying to do is is we're finished. There's  this transition from the government we had to this   government has not happened. Not it's incomplete.  You mean a city manager? I would give it an I,   you know, and I'm just trying to I think we're we  should be trying to figure out how future councils   as well as us I I I really think that that  issue is irrelevant, you know, that we're we're   not having a problem. I mean, the question is how  can we finally set up this government to function   under, you know, pretty much any circumstances.  We've kind of seen what happens when um there's   no guide guide guard rails up and I think we we  want to put them in place. I just wanted to Oh,   I'm sorry. I just wanted to say that on the um and  and you certainly could look at putting something   in chapter 111, but in addition to the ability  of council to um require that all directors,   uh chiefs, etc., attend council meetings and  council committee the whole meetings. The same   section um just a little above that says that  the council president or council committee   chair may request that a director or chief or  designate attend specified meetings of council   or of such committee respectively. When such  uh request has been made, the director or chief   requested to be in attendance or designate shall  attend the meeting and shall answer or respond   in good faith to questions asked by the council  member or council committee member respectively   related to the powers and duties of the director,  chief or designate. So I think it's relatively   well detailed and I went I went to look at that  because I remember looking at this last summer but   I like it. I see I I think this has to be uh more  collaborative if it's going to work, right? And I  

think that is what with with some expectations on  both sides. Yeah. Um and some efficiencies because   right now we've got administrative committees  and we have we have we have council committees   that sort of have the same mission. And so trying  to do all that from an administrative perspective   is not efficient. It'd be better if there was  like one spot and we were all at the table.   I mean that's I mean I do see we have two  separate Yeah. We we we have we have two we   have two separate branches of governments and I  think what happens sort of in the center the the   the intersections is is really can be at the  committee level where you know we sit at this   table with our administrative peers listening to  what they're doing passing legislation that that   they're that they're asking us to pass giving  them the money so they can do what they have   to do. In return, we are getting some oversight  and we are getting some say in what gets done,   which hasn't really happened a whole lot, right?  It I mean, there's some of it's there. I mean,   I I I've got some good examples of of where some  of it's it it it's been there. Um, and I think if   you get that culture going when we leave these  seats and other people step in and we have a   new mayor, no, this is sort of the process. This  is this is what we always do. This is, you know,   Joyce uses this term, what's the shaker way? And  it's like, okay, shaker. I've heard that term many   times. Yeah. Well, we don't want the Shaker way.  We want the Cleveland Heights way. Okay. Which is   going to be different. But that but we wanted  to transcend what's going on now. I think that   is absolutely right. if it can be um presented to  mayor and clear state administrator Ree that it  

is a collaborative experience but we need the  expertise of those directors and I understand   it's in the evening you know our meetings are in  the evenings beyond their work day that issue has   come up before you know what alternative do we  have well here what we know is is that 95% may   be higher of city council have the directors at  every regular meeting Mr. H. true or false I'm   at every meeting. Yeah. Um no I think I'm talking  about the regular generally correct and they don't   come to our regular meetings. So I to me I mean  I I mean I just look at here in public service   if you're a director this is not like just a total  nineto-fr you know. So I I have no I mean it's not   sympathy. It's just this to me this is part of  the job. Directors have to work nights once in   a while. Howard Meer would say that's was part  of his job of course. And the thing is there's   example after example. Tune tune in to anybody  else's council. Tune in to they're they're lined   up like Mount Rushmore. You know they're they're  I mean that's the way it is. So anytime we say,   "Hey, could you come to one meeting at night in  a month?" No tears. Is that the shaker way? Um,   it is, you know, and I'm also assuming that  council members if they're if if would accommodate   them if they needed to participate by Zoom. I  mean, Steve is here, so getting the equipment up   and running shouldn't be a problem. Yeah. if a if  a director lives a county over. We had Todd join   the public safety committee meeting because it was  the last meeting and that worked out quite well.  

So I I was just saying here are our options, you  know. Um but I would like everybody to think about   don't think about this circumstance. What what  is the best practice for city council now and in   the future? You're going to get a different mayor  with a different I mean I can tell you Beachwood,   you know, one person was just like it is now. The  next person and they've had they've have they have   a much longer history with elected mayors than we  do. Well, every city does except for maybe what is   it? Bedford. I can't remember. There's one other  anomaly in Kyoga County. Um, and another mayor   came in and said, "Nobody talks to anybody in my  administration without going through me." I mean,   you know, that's and I'm not talking about  like ancient history in Beach. So, anyway,   um, anything else? No, I think that's good.  Thanks for listening to me. Sure. Um, all right.   Is everybody satisfied with what we are calling  our legislative process? We all understand it.   We all believe like it works for us. No. Um, so  I think on council initiated legislation and I   put something that's what I'm talking about. Yes.  So that's I put something together and I'm happy   to bring it up at the appropriate time, but I  the one that was done last administration to me   when I read it trying to figure out what I was  supposed to be doing, it read very confusingly.   And I don't think it even reflects like the way  that we could effectively do this. So I'd like   to propose like a effort to revamp that if we  could that would simplify it but also we could   except we in a sense we've revamped it by making  the committee process the committee of the whole  

and that's the place now where instead of having  the alter an alternative be you know to generate   it in the committee and then bring it to committee  the whole I I wasn't speaking about that actually   I was speaking of how we circulate legislation.  What the time how determines the timelines when   how what is the expectation of the law department  among competing priorities of Well, that wasn't   even mentioned in the process, right? Yeah. Okay.  No, but I was thinking about that was confusing.   I want to change it and then you're talking  about things that aren't in it, right? Well,   because because I don't think it reflects some of  the the realities of trying to move legislation   through with or without our committee structure.  We have staff on the administration side. We have   a law department. We have maybe like we have  a landmark commission like an outside group   or we have outside council that have worked on  something or with the flock legislation. We have   constituent feedback. So all of those things need  to somehow be um part of the overall process. So   that's that's what I wanted to. So um how and when  do you want to bring that up? I have it already   drafted. I sent it to you too after Sunday and  I asked you permission if I could talk to Bill   about it and I was just waiting on because I what  I'd like to do is kind of co-create it with Bill   and get his perspective on if this works for the  law department and then see if we can merge like   what would work for council and what works with  the capacity of the law department. I think um   that's in the collaborative spirit which is Jim  just brought up if that's okay fine with me. I   did I did just want to throw in because I looked  earlier thinking about what might be discussed  

tonight. Um I know there's discussion at times  about like the log jam in the Cleveland Heights   legislative process and how slow everything is,  but I think if you look at other city websites,   you'll find that you guys pass two to three  times as much legislation as any other city   in the county. Probably not Cleveland.  Um Lakewood, for example, is an easy one.   They did 116 pieces of legislation in 2024 and  115 in 2025. Very consistent. Cleveland Heights   did well this was consistent also 268 and 272.  Um so I just throw that out there um because   there's a yeah for context and perspective on you  know the amount of legislation that successfully   um works its way through the process and uh Wow.  and gets before you question and I know you're   busy but ho how much of that is really substantive  legislation? I mean we're generating a lot of   what I would consider routine things like these  appointments to the boards and commissions. I bet   you we do 50 to 100 of those and sometimes those  are separate pieces of legislation. Right. So I   think you know a lot of that may account for that  or you say although I would suggest that other   cities have kind of the same thing going on with  and repeating legislation but yeah that's a fair   point. I'm not rejecting the notion that there  is room for improvement. Excuse me. Thank you.   Um all right uh council community engagement. Um,  by that I mean, uh, I want to make sure that, uh,   and I I've brought this up before, that we can go  out and have community meetings. I I I strongly   believe that council people should be able to  do this. We should be able to advertise if we're   going to meet with people in the community  that uh, that something that the, you know,  

we're inviting people through, you know, using  city resources. I think it's really important. I   don't think everybody has to do it. I, you know,  I would strongly always suggest that the council   people do it, but um I'm not for I want to make  this clear. I am not for taking the show on the   road and putting some kind of unbelievably huge  burden on staff to do something like that. But I   do like the idea that we can go and have meetings  in neighborhoods um as individuals or you know you   can obviously do it with one or two other people.  I mean you know you want to of course avoid you   know any open meetings act violations we talked  about that's very easy to do um if everybody   understands the rules. So yeah, I think the  concern um with that is when do when do um those   activities particularly in in the election year  sort of cross over into it becoming um a political   event because we sort of we've had these issues  come up in the past. it and so that's I think my   only caveat is that we have to be cognizant of  that for the and particularly the perception of   it. Yeah. I mean, it's absolutely forbidden to do  anything like that, but Well, that's my I mean,   that's part of my concern with your suggestion  that we use city resources to host or advertise   meetings for just one or two council people at  a time because thinking about future councils,   we may not expect any of us to abuse that, but I  could very well see that being a process that gets   abused. And I would also argue that we're always  running for reelection whether it's an election  

year or it's not. And then my other concern about  only having meetings, public meetings or listening   sessions or whatever with one or two um council  members, and I think I've said this before,   is that you know, if I were a resident and I'm  struggling to make it out of the house at night   to go to some sort of council event, I want to  see everybody there. And if you're telling me that   only two of you are here tonight and I got to wait  until the other people come before you guys could   answer my question because that's not your area,  that's their area or you know if I want to talk   to everybody I have to go to a council meeting.  I would be frustrated with that and I you you can   do that anytime as a as a resident. You can come  and see all seven of us you know regularly. Now   you can do it every Monday. Well, can you get out  at night if you work at night or if you have kids   and you don't have the money for a babysitter? You  don't know where the babysitter is or you I mean   there's a mill mobility reasons. I mean I just  think there's a multitude of reasons that I'm just   thinking having done it. It serves a purpose that  we could never replicate at a council meeting. And   it is it is a it is sitting down with people in  their neighborhood and giving them the floor and   there's no you know clock ticking or you know what  have you. And to be clear I have zero problem with   the idea of it. My issue is when we're using city  resources to to allow one or two council members   to create their own that's not an official event,  right? Because I think the impreature of the city   putting it in the newsletter makes it a council  event and then you will have questions of why is   this not videotaped? Why is only why are only  two people there and not all seven? What are   the public because there are minutes? I mean,  these are questions that people will ask, and  

I think we've complicated it by the only reason  it's complicated is because you would like city   resources to be used in setting them up. Well,  nobody's ever asked, first of all, and second of   all, and I'm not saying Well, because you haven't  used city resources to do it before, right? No,   we have. It was in the news. I think you did with  But um I'm sorry. You were going to say something.   Well, I I guess I was going to ask and this  conversation doesn't have to happen tonight. Um,   but I'm I guess I'm curious as to the benefits  of doing it as a formal event other than getting   publicity out through the city's channel  versus doing it just as a council person   having a meeting. And the distinction in my mind  that I would still want to work through further is   um is is based upon council's authority to act as  a group of seven people um which is the only way   that council can actually act um through voting  and a single council person doesn't have authority   um really to do to make any official actions on  behalf of the city or to undertake those actions.   And I think that it's and we I think you've seen  this in the past here in Cleveland Heights that   that's sometimes confusing to people who go to  these meetings and they really don't know what's   been committed to whether the city is now going  back on a promise that they thought they heard um   in a meeting with an individual council person um  and so forth. The OMA issues are also there, but   I think those are are more easily managed. I think  they have to. You can't conduct city business when   you when you're doing this and certainly that  wouldn't be the purpose. The other thing is if   we can all do it, there is no imbalance with using  city resources. We we all have the opportunity to   do it. So I mean that doesn't address my authority  issue. That doesn't address my authority. No, no,  

no. I was I was addressing what you said. I mean  it's just you're not saying you can use city   resources and somebody else can't. Everybody can.  Um, but I I just want to hear from other people. I don't feel strongly either way. I'm a little uncomfortable with it. I could  live with it, but I'm a little uncomfortable   with it. We're as a whole, we should all be  together. If we do something completely separate,   it really needs to be maybe done on an individual  basis as opposed to with one of our peers. Unless   we're running for office and we're a slate.  Yeah. But if you're running for office,   you would use your campaign. You use Yeah. I  mean, I don't Yeah, I then do it individually. Anybody else? Now, I I spoke earlier just  my concerns about when does this have the   potential to cross and over to be politicking  and Jessica said about in the sense you're you're   always running, but it I it becomes more of a  concern really during an election year. Well,   and that's what's happened when one of our  previous colleagues held a meeting and kept   out essentially the mayor and another colleague  and it just got messy. So I hear what councelor   Posh is saying and I respect that greatly and I  I therefore I'm vacasillating right now. Yeah.   I mean it's I mean anytime people out there it's  open for abuse. I just you know I just think it's   kind of um it would be an odd thing to have a  meeting where you don't advertise it and like   you're not letting people know that you're doing  it. I don't know what exactly that is supposed to  

be or why you would. I can tell you I would I  wouldn't want to do it. I you know if I didn't   think people would know about it, why would I  don't even know why I would do that. Yeah. So   and the um I think you and Devita had a couple  of events previously. Were those well attended?   Yeah. Okay. Pretty pretty good attendance. Like  40 50 people had maybe we did maybe three or four   probably four of them. I you know and I'm just  tossing this out that you know to the extent   that community engagement if every council member  had an opportunity to to hold an event maybe in   the community center where they were just there  and it got advertised. here's an opportunity to   come to get to know this council member like we  there's a police have meet your police officers   down in there and everybody and everyone has  the opportunity to to do that. Uh that's just   a suggestion. We've come up with some slots and  sign up for it. I also thought you know in terms   of community engagement I think I commented  on this. I think it's part of our job that we   go out and we are accessible and we're seen and  visible and I think we do a good job of trying to   get out to events. Uh I would like to see us  um sign up for a shift at the uh at you know   at the King Park Art Festival. We get a lot of  people through the city has a tent there and a   city council member sit at the sit at a table or  desk. Yeah. Um, I like that idea of the community   center or I mean it doesn't have to be there but  just you know use the libraries what have you and   you know that way you could do you could do things  in different parts of the town. You know the Noble  

Road library for example is you know maybe we look  at getting a room set up there and everybody will   have you know set up a night. So, how about  because I really I think I'd like to move,   but how about if I just kind of come up with a  framework of like, you know, here's, you know,   like uh you know, limit it to the topics and  kind of things and the dos and don'ts so that   that it's kind of clear. We got some rules and  just I'll present it at the you know, the next   uh committee of the whole meeting. Okay. Yeah.  Um don't worry. Um, no. I I was just thinking   that as you go through that exercise and and  as um some of the vice president's um rule um   uh development is occurring, you know, you might  move forward some guidelines or process, you know,   constraints on something like this and and embody  that into a rule or an ordinance because then you   would have something that has the the city's  official approval. you would have a structure   that's defined and understood and it might make  some of the issues easier to sort out. Yeah, I   like that. Um, council responding to AI generated  anonymous emails. This this came up, you know,   kind of recently. I I don't know that we were  going to talk about this as a rule or a practice,   but um I thought it was ironic that we got a an  AI generated email that well was it I mean the   content was generated. It was obviously somewhere.  Um, and the the accusation was that we were being  

asked to do things and remain anonymous and the  email was anonymous. So, I mean, do we want to   have a practice about that or we do we want to  formally let people know that we um because I   could see this just blowing up, you know, is this  I think it goes into rules. I mean or was say like   council members should not feel obligated to  respond to abusive anonymous you know we can   I think I mean whether it's AI generated or not  right I mean we also we also get abusive emails   too that's part of civility as well um uh council  members responding on social media to things that   happen at council meetings. We have had problems  with that um in the past. Um is that's something   we want to work into rules. I I can tell you that  when somebody something happens at a meeting and   the next thing you know there it is by one council  person um it's I think it gets into a civility   issue or camp um and I'm concerned about that. I  mean there's enough abusive stuff on social media you need to get in and you know feed into  that stuff. So I think without naming names   you know where where that has happened on this  particular council. I mean I think the community   really saw through all that and and thankfully  they did and I think that was shown in the ball  

ballot box in the end. Um, I mean, I think  we need I mean, we can't be censored. I mean,   whoever whoever gets the seat, you you could  you could go on social media and you could   theoretically say anything you want to say. I  think if we follow Gail's path where we sort of   have this sort of expectation of civility,  you know, that's, you know, we're I mean,   we can't censor we can't censor someone. I  mean, well, I guess I suppose you could. I mean,   I I I have that. Thank you. Well, that's  that's what I was getting at cuz you know,   if you violate I mean, I don't know where you're  going with these rules, but at the end of the day,   No, no. And I I meant I meant I meant the first  draft. The first draft. No, I will share it with   you. Let me explain. When I say I don't know  where it's going, what I mean is are these rules   going to be the kind of things that where you, you  know, if you violate them, there's actually some   kind of penalty or is it just an expectation?  Because we never we didn't talk about that, guidelines. Okay, point. Yeah, I I can't  see us acting having any kind of pu punitive   ramification. I mean, we're free people. We  we've got elected here individually. We we   have we have to behave well. But I think I love  the word guidelines. I use the word expectations,   but I think guidelines is a much more appropriate  word to use. Um, and then people can make up their   mind. I mean, I mean, the whole issue here is  giving us the ability to do our work. And there's   times where you could not have a conversation  amongst council members at this table without  

some fight going on. Yeah. I mean, censuring and  enforcing rules is not unheard of in councils. I'm   not promoting it. I'm just I was just asking. So,  okay. Do we have a censure? Like, is there a way   to do that in our rules? because there's a there's  a removal um you know section of the charter but   is there anything Robert's rules has in Robert's  rules it would kick in because we don't because   we're silent on it. Yeah. So, so the answer I  guess is yes. I'm sort of of the mindset that   we we leave it as broad as possible. And if this  body feels like they need to center or remove,   there are avenues to do that versus spelling out  individual circumstances where that may or may not   apply. I wonder if you could just just I think  take the standards of civil conduct um and just   say this also applies to social media and I think  that would take care of that that that it's not   just your your what happens in the council room  but it happens in your written communication and   and social media. Yeah, email too, right? That's  good advice. and then email email too because   I have received as a resident I received very  abusive emails from council members and that way   it's just an expectation of civility and that's  I think where your problem might have emails from   council member I would I there was at least twice  that I emailed previous council not this team and   I got a very nasty response very upsetting maybe  that would that would cover a lot of maybe what   was inflammatory on social media. Yeah, that's a  good idea. All right, let me try to wrap this up.  

I got I do have a a few more things. Um this next  one is more of just it's about our practices. It's   more of a comment than anything but along I think  it is very important for council to obtain its   uh council its appointment authority to committees  and commissions for a number of reasons. I just   want to put this out there. One is that the seven  of us will always have a deeper reach into the   community than any one person because there's  you know there are there are uh governments   that have the mayoral more more mayor more mayoral  authority on appointments and I would also argue   that sometimes mayors are very busy and this kind  of thing becomes very low priority is something   that that this council does well. I think it's  something that every council could do well as   long as you have a clerk of council and a and a  good administrative services committee chair. Um,   he's looking at you, sir. And um, and I think it  you're always in danger of when you leave it to   one person of having a much shallower reach into  the community and um, and a longer wait time and   so forth depending on on their workload. I if  anybody wants to comment on that but that that   is my very firm position. Um and two more. So on  that on that there there are some where there's   mayoral appointees. So are you saying where we  are now is where you want it? I mean I'm I'm   okay where things are at now. I understand why  the mayor appoints the civil service commission.   I think that is that state law chart. Charter.  Yeah. Okay. And it's three people and I think  

they serve for six years. A long time. Yeah.  Yeah. Very infrequent appointees unless you   know resignation. Um anything else about that? I  mean I'm not No, I mean there are there are boards   and or there are boards where the mayor shares in  that, right? And you're saying you're I was never   for it. It's It's Yeah, here we are. So, yeah.  Are you Are you proposing to change that and No.   Or just leave it as is? I I I'm just saying as we  move forward, I think I think I'm just letting you   know where I'm at on that issue. It might come up  again because sometimes a new committee's formed   or they we want to change the number of people or  some circumstance changes. Um, I'm just letting   you know how important I think it is for council  to not just retain the authority we have, but you   know, also going forward, I think it's a better  fit for council to be doing that that work. Um,   the city council holiday policy. So, we had one  instance where, you know, PUM was we moved it. I   mean, do we want to be doing that? That that's my  question. I think we should discuss this because   um there's the city calendar with the holidays on  it and people could come and go on city council   that have other religious holidays. Do we want to  do we want to be doing that or do we want to just   follow the city count the city calendar with  the holidays that are there and then you know   I don't think anybody would look down on my view  I don't think anybody would look down on anybody   who missed a meeting because they you know had  a religious purpose uh to not be there but yeah  

I I'm not sure we should make it a policy but  I think specifically and I'm I'm I'm going to   direct this mostly for for you, Jessica. I mean,  I think we keep our meeting schedules exactly the   way they are today, but if there's a conflict  and if there's important items on that agenda,   um, you ask for it to be postponed, which is what  you've done in the past and we found a way to be   agreeable uh to that. Um, I mean, there's a lot  of inner working parts sometimes in in order to   to reschedule a meeting and I don't think you're  going to see a lot of conflicts. I mean, I'm just   talking about regular meetings. I'm sorry. I  should have probably said that up front. Well,   I think as someone who asked to do this is that  it it's not a question of whether or not I'll be   one a council member would be negatively viewed  for missing the meeting. It's about losing the   opportunity to vote on whatever is or have an  opinion on whatever is being discussed at that   meeting because of a religious observance. And  I would be happy to do that for whoever has a   religious conflict. Now, if I was asking all of  council to move it because I'm going on vacation,   that's a different story. But we're talking I  mean I I have to say that nobody would expect   us to schedule any sort of meetings on Christmas  or Easter. And while Peru may be one of the not   you know there's a lot of Jewish holidays and  I acknowledge that I mean to me I would view   it in the same vein. I mean if we have a conflict  with Russia Shana and your suggestion is that we   continue on with that meeting that to me is very  offensive. I'm not I'm not suggesting anything.   I'm suggesting do we want I'm talking about as  a policy. Do we want to move regular meetings   based on religious I'm not talking about  your religion. I I I'm just talking about   religion and I I'm I'm what I am saying is that  I think what we have now is that we don't have  

a requirement that it must be moved. We have  that if it comes up with members of council,   they can make that request and council can  entertain that request. We all in the same let's   remain flexible follow the current practice but I  think there needs to be some understanding amongst   ourselves you know may see this is where we're  all different and there there I guess there's   different flavors different degrees of of how you  celebrate a holiday you know in my mind there's   major Jewish holidays and those are frankly  non-negotiable okay I and and and I think we   should as as a body respect that. But there's also  a lot of holidays out there and and some of them   uh if there's not an important voting item, I  would think that we that we be flexible. I think   we we we've shown that and I think if it turns out  to be problematic, then I think maybe we could,   you know, take take it to the next step and  find a way of codifying some of this stuff.   do not go to fine. Um I would like to say that I I  would like to follow the city's calendar. I think   that's really important. It also is in the charter  when our meeting regular meetings are. So in this   case with prim and it doesn't always fall on a  on the first or third Monday of the month. Um,   I was willing to do that, but then when I look at  all the other different instances where we should,   and I also add what councelor Posh commented on,  if there's something coming up on that agenda that   the person who is thinking about, well, I've  got a a holiday on when that agenda is going   to be presented. Is it possible to be adaptable on  our agenda and move it to the following meeting?   I'll just say that that this is also about can  the res I mean you all the council previous  

councils have changed meeting times based on  whether residents can attend and I think to to   Jim's point about major Jewish holidays I would be  shocked if we continued with a meeting on Russia   shana yung kipper that would be like putting a  meeting on Christmas I mean in the view of the   Jewish community and that's a widespread you know  widely observed holiday schools are closed Right.   So that so I I I guess that you know back to  flexibility. I think you know the problem with the   Jewish calendar is that it moves around because  it's a lunar calendar and not the solar calendar.   So it's a different day of the week, it's a  different day of the month, it's a different   month sometimes depending on the year. So that's  what makes it a little bit more complicated. But   I I think the sensitivity of understanding who is  able to engage and not will if we have flexibility   then we can make those decisions in real time with  enough advanced notice. I appreciate that. We we   never talked about it and I think we needed  to at least you know with with all of us here   uh talk about that. All right. And I'm fine  by the way with with uh you know in a sense   playing it by ear. I'm only using that term  because like you said that calendar moves. Um,   and lastly, I just want to make a comment  about the process for amending the charter.   And this is not specifically about rank choice  voting, although it it it certainly applies.   um that their the the charge to the Charter Review  Commission was to come up with charter amendments   that they felt were in the best interests of the  community. That was their charge. Their charge   wasn't to go, I don't have a I don't have a an  opinion on this. Just let the voters, you know,   that's not the charge and that's not our charge  either. Okay? Now, I just want to make this clear.  

When in our oath and in the charter, it says that  if we move something forward, a charter amendment   that we're saying this is in the best interest  of the community and that's why we're putting it   on the on the uh uh on the ballot. And I I I just  want to make sure this kind of goes back to like   uh you know our roles and so forth, although  it does apply to our practices as well. And I   want to make sure that we're all clear on that. Um  you know, there's three I mean I'm not saying you   don't know stuff. I'm just saying there's three  new people. There's four of us that that you know   from varying degrees that have been through this  before. As a matter of fact, I think the first   thing I did was put a charter amendment on the  ballot. It was Am I wrong? I don't even know. It   was early. It was early on. Yeah. And um and and  with the understanding most charter amendments   pass. So So for that reason and the c and our oath  and what's in the charter, I I I would like us I   don't care where we fall on a given charter  issue. I mean, that's up to you. You But we   all we should be all approaching it with what  I just said in mind. Everybody agree with that. Okay. Just want to make sure it takes five, by the  way, um to send a charter amendment to the voters.   Five votes. I mean, we don't have to agree with  that. I mean, it would could depend on the issue,   right? I mean, I don't think that I mean, our oath  doesn't change. No, not that. I just Yeah. I mean,   it's just I mean I mean, what goes on in people's  heads I I'm just saying that it's nice to when  

we're approaching an important issue that we  understand, you know, there's a big difference   between going, I don't care, just let them, you  know, them the voters. I mean, I think that's   way different than saying this is a good idea  for Cleveland Heights and we ought to do this.   Go ahead. So, I think when it comes to rank choice  voting, I mean, I would be very surprised if we're   going to have unanimous decision on sending it  to the voters or not. And that's okay. Of course,   that's okay because I think I mean I think we  all have different opinions of where that is.   And I think I still have I from my perspective  since you brought I haven't decided. We we have   a hearing tomorrow night. I'm interested to to  to see what happens. I think we need I need more   data, but we'll see. I think it does constitute  an endorsement if a majority of council decide   that they're going to vote to submit something to  the electors. I mean, in a sense, that's kind of   what I'm saying. Well, that that I think that's  you know I I'm saying that that you know because   when you again our oath what's in the charter  we're saying this is a good idea let's give it to   the voters. There's the exercise that this council  not you three but the rest of us went through last   year. The charter review commission was charged  with coming up with charter amendments that are   in the best interest of the community. They  passed them along to us. We rejected some. We,   even though they said it was in the best interest  of the community, the people who were on council   said some of these should not be on the ballot.  Why? Because they're not in the best interest of   the community. Number two, some of us decided  that's not a bad idea, but we're going to need  

to change it. And we did that several times. And  then there were some that we just cut and pasted   because as is we thought they were good ideas. But  I don't remember anybody saying and I certainly   would have objected if anybody did, you know, I  don't really care about this. Just go ahead with   it. It's like that's not an answer. Not in my  view. But can I get something off my chest real   real quick? So have to do with this there. No, no.  There's a lot of chitchat um about uh ward-based   council members and we need to have a count we  need to have a a charter review commission to   take that up. Well, we just had one that took it  up and they decided not to and they decided not to   do it and I think that gets forgotten. Okay. And  then I think we at times look like creeps because,   you know, maybe we we didn't take something  seriously. That's overstating. But I mean,   come on. We just had a charter review commission  that did this. This is the second time that a   charter review commission has chosen not to  because the charter review commission that I   was the vice chair on similarly chose and that  was the one of the two major questions that we   were asked to consider. And by the same token,  two councils decided because we did I left out   something. We did come up with a few charter  amendments that weren't recommended or reject,   you know. So, we had yet another chance to say,  "Here's another great idea that we think people   ought to vote on." And we didn't do it. There  were a lot of changes of different magnitude,   right? Some bigger, some smaller. Yeah, I did just  want to throw out that uh it's worth keeping in   mind as you think about this entire issue that  in the case of an initiated charter amendment   um if there are sufficient signatures, council  has no authority to not send it to the voters. So,   it's a little bit different twist u versus  the council initiated charter amendment,   but for what that's worth. Well, as a  matter of fact, we have to put if they  

if once we get the signatures and the board  of elections, we have to put it. Go ahead.   I I think it would be interesting to see the  history of the ch of of of major um of pieces of   legislation that have gone up for a referendum  and whether those were initiated by signature for those issues that are such of such broad  public interest. something like this that's   going to affect the voting in our city and um um  it it's would seem to me that that would be the   logical way to do this. It's an important it's an  important issue if it was going to be considered.   I mean that's what citizens for an elected mayor  did but um you know then there were um Cedarly   Malbrook that was that was I just went back and  looked at them and it looked like you know you   had that's been the history they have been they've  come up with was a charter it wasn't a yeah it was   a charter stuff it's all been it's all except for  issue 21 changing the form of government the other   And there was only what one or two other charter  by signatures, right? Right. In the last council   of the clerk, and and we also changed um oh gosh,  the the the the time and the manner of appointment   when we had a vacancy on city council and that  was kind of rushed through and Yeah, that was a   a misop a mistake. Yes. Are we taking July off?  So, we're going mid July to mid Well, actually,   if if we I don't know. We didn't really exactly  draw a line of demarcation, but we have a regular   meeting. We're going to have a regular meeting  the first Monday in July, and then I guess we're   going to have the committee of the whole meeting  or the second. The second. And then we're going  

to break until mid uh a uh August. He's smiling  already. He's like thinking they're both really   nice months. So, we got a little bit of We need a  piece of legislation for that. Does Addy need to   create piece of legislation so that or we formally  announce it again or how do we make people aware?   I think it's usually done by motion, but we it's  sometimes done by Yeah, we haven't done a motion   like all the staff to know that that's what we're  doing. Yeah. Can Can I I I don't know. It just it   it just rubs me the wrong way. I mean I mean I  think there's times where if we're on vacation   in July, it's okay to take it's okay to miss a  meeting. I mean it's not great, but it's okay to   miss a meeting. And we have more vehicles that we  with Zoom that that lets us attend a meeting. So   you're saying no. Yeah, I'm I'm not a fan of it.  But okay, but here here's the but issue. I mean,   I think that you could cancel the meeting. I mean,  plan on cancelling, keep the meetings out there,   but sort of, you know, pencil it in, I suppose,  and cancel it at the last minute. You know, this   is a very common practice. I mean, it's almost  every single city council. I'm going to push back   because I think we could use a break. And then  also staff could use a break from staffing our   council. I can I can't tell you how much staff.  Fast forward to us being I mean, no. I mean,   It's They love it. They love it. I mean, but you  know, I listen, there was another council person   that that had the same uh feeling you did about  this, but um the rest of us didn't share it,   but that's that's okay. Okay. I think what  the thing for me is when we're taking a break,   my brain takes a break. when we're taking a break,  the staff gets to take a break from prepping and  

being on call and the things that go on outside of  these meetings and it's just really important. Um   I respect that and I spend time with my family  during that time. So then but we do need to   um make a motion next month. Okay. So, I'll  make sure that Eddie brings All right. Um,   is there are there any topics like I  know we we had six or seven topics,   you know, like categories. Anything we didn't  I don't I don't want to cover anything else,   but I mean is there anything that gez you  know I wish the agenda would have included? Good. That's good. That's really good  because that's rare to get seven people   to go. Now that about covers it. All  the screens are shut on the lap. Well,   I didn't mean that. I didn't mean reopen  anything. I meant more like our tummies   are growling. Look down the road, you know, if  we were going to do like September or whatever,   you know. All right. Um I guess we're we all know  what we're supposed to do from here. Can Can I   say one Thank you. Thank you very much. This  is This is Thank you. This is This is great.   I'm glad that we were able to have these seven  hours. Actually, seven and a half hours. Right   back at you. You pushed for it and you you you you  made a framework for it and really appreciate it   and I appreciate I mean we talked very frankly  and openly to each other. It's a very collabor   I feel really great about the way this is all  working. So before anything goes wrong at 8:47