City Council - Regular Meeting

question. We welcome you to the pro municipal council work meeting. It is March 24th, 2026 and it's 1:01 p.m. Uh we will do a roll call starting with councelor Rachel. Rachel Whiffle, Becky Bogdan, Katrice McKay, Cy Christianson, Jeff Woodlock, Gary Garrett.

All right. Um, all the public meeting only the presenters and those invited by the council may ask or speak or ask questions unless otherwise invited by the chair. Please wait to speak until called upon by the council chair. When speaking, please be sure to use a microphone so the records clear and those attending virtually can hear you. Please also be sure to limit side conversations as they interfere with the audio recording. If you need to have a side conversation, please step out of the work meeting room. Please propose that we approve the following minutes. March 10th, 2026 board meeting. Are there any objections or requested changes?

Just one change. Um, I have a brother named Greg, so I'm very used to this, but it said Greg Garrett on the attendance. Yes. It was actually me, not Is he a twin? Hm. Is he a twin? No. Seeing no, okay, we'll make those changes your name. Thank you.

And we'll declare that the minutes are approved by unanimous consent. All right. Our first item of business is a presentation regarding the proposed redevelopment of the Provo Town Center site into a mixeduse transit oriented district. And this will be presented by Robert Schmidt, development director of paid companies, and Justin Long, project exeu executive for Brixton. And we have about 60 minutes for this discussion. You go right to the front there. And if you have extra people who want to stay back here and talk for a bit, please slides.

I have two slides here. Just let me know if this is the one you want to use. If not, I have another one. You should have a clicker. Yeah, I think the other one just real quick. Okay, let me pull this one up. You can use that clicker up there and that will control the slides. Uh the the other one I got we only got these two sets of slides.

Yep, that's the one. This one. Okay. All right. Good afternoon. My name is Robert Schmidt, uh, managing director of development at Pad Companies here in Provo. We're a Provo company. Been here for in Provo for 15 years, but we were actually founded. My first office building was in the night block building on the third floor. So, uh, been a while. Done several projects in town. Uh, you may be familiar with those. Um, and we're happy to be here to talk about the Pro Town Center Mall uh, project. We are partnered with Brixton Capital. Justin Long is here today with me and he'll be uh uh going through much of the presentation. Really, what we want to talk about here today are uh the process that we're in and the next steps that need to be taken to continue advancing this project to to bring it to a successful uh successful start and eventually a successful completion. Um, we've made application to the city for a reszone, which involves a text amendment to uh the ITOD zone to amend the general plan and to reszone uh the north end of the mall to an ITOD zone. And we'll get into some specifics about that. Uh, and attached to the the reszone request is a conceptual site plan. So, today I think we'll start with Justin. He'll walk through the conceptual site plan. We'll kind of start at the site plan first and then we'll come back to some of the specifics on the reszone request. Um, in addition to the reszone, um, we also have a an HTRZ request in process with the city. The HTRZ is the housing transit reinvestment zone. It's a uh a tiff tool, basically tax increment financing tool um to help projects get over the hump uh of you know big projects that require major infrastructure to help them get over the hump to make them feasible. So we'll talk about that a bit as well. We've got Ben um

Davidson with the David last name sorry Ben Wilhelm Wilhelm sorry I want to say Van Wong Ben Wilhelm with the Davidson here with us as well and uh he can talk through some of the charity specifics as we get into that. We also have Kyle Godat with Brixton Capital and Tyler Phelps with PEG. So Justin,

thanks very much. We're uh pleased to be in front of you and presenting excuse me this concept and think Robert introduced Peg and they've been a fantastic partner. We're thrilled to have them um on the project. They do extremely high quality development on the multif family side and we see that as obviously a crucial component of the overall site plan here to making this successful and we're we're thrilled they've been excellent partners for this and we know they'll continue to be adding value through the process. So, um, as I'm sure most of you know, um, here's our mall here. It's not been as successful, I think, from a footfall standpoint as we like it that we number of years and we see that it needs to be reinvented. Uh, you know, this is not unique to Provo Town Center is kind of where I want to start. This is a secular shift that's happening across the country. uh in indoor malls are having challenges kind of no matter where they are and the vast majority of those uh will need to become something else in the future. I saw an estimate the other day as high as 80% of current indoor malls will no longer be malls in 15 plus years. So this is happening all around the world, excuse me, around the country and the results of that have kind of been the tail of the tape. here on the left is the um annual sales tax receipts prior to today and on the right in red you can see kind of where we see things going without sort of you know reimagining what the future of the campus really needs to be. I mean it's not a good asset currently for for the community from a um placemaking standpoint, a business standpoint or really from a revenue generation standpoint. So, we'd like to bring this into the 21st century. A lot of you, Kyle and I, live this every day. So, we have to deal with these challenges on a daily basis. But for those that aren't really familiar with what the challenges associated with malls are and why they're extremely hard

to redevelop, this is just sort of a high level categorization of the things that create problems as we uh try to engage with the core partners and stakeholders in reimagining these kinds of assets. Super cool easement agreements are agreements that govern how these assets work. So things like parking and access and who can go where and who can build what where. Um those have to have um extremely detailed negotiations in this case that went on for many years uh on how to unlock the potential because the partners that are part of that agreement are often the key partners that are on the site. people like J C Penney, um, Cinear, you know, now Target, all those kind of major players that are retailers have their own business needs that they're obviously concentrating on. They want to make sure those aren't negatively affected by whatever is going to happen going forward. That that's a major component that ties in with the anchor tenant rights just depending on whether they lease or actually own the ground. But those are the same kinds of conversations. The fact that there's typically multiple ownership groups. So when we when Brixton Capital acquired the property, as some of you may or may not know, dealers actually used to own their building and the land around their building over time and with the target project, we were able to acquire their interest which streamlined that approval process with them. But often that's a major hurdle and it was in this case until we took that off the table with that acquisition. Uh cross parking, cross accessments. And then you know the final one and not one that's insignificant is you know there's existing businesses that are in operating today whether it's Red Robin or some of the temporary tenants those are all obviously people that need to be uh talked to and figured out how to transition them to an alternative location and in some cases relocate them into the uh the project and it configuration. So those are all challenges that we have to to work through. This is a a graphic that I think helps illustrate for Proto Town Center how these challenges manifest

themselves. So all the boxes in red are the key anchor tenants that have to approve any of the components of any changes in development. So you got like I said Cinear, J C Penney, and Target. And then in purple here, you each one of those parking lots has major controls that are dictated by either one or all in some cases of those anchor tenants. So again, some of the challenges we have to work through as we try to create a new vision for what we believe the project should be going forward. So just to hit real quick, I won't spend a lot of time on this, but as I mentioned, you know, we were able to acquire the Dillard's interest. we were able to bring target into the project which was a massive uh validation of the quality of the real estate and and a first domino for us to fall and we think there's a lot of momentum there that we'd like to ride into the next uh phase of the project and we see that as before and after on the right you can see that it's an entirely enclosed indoor mall shifting to an exterior oriented mixeduse walkable environment is the vision so I'd like play our video.

Yeah. So, okay. I was wondering what this video was. It's actually really cool.

So, let the video play. It's not, you know, it's not perfect. It was done a little while ago before some details um changed in the plans, but it o overall gives you a really good sense of what the walkable mixeduse um higher density vision for the project is intended to be. If you're able to kill this kill, doesn't get any better.

No, wait. So the intent the intent here is to bring the vehicles and the customers into the center of the new plaza and create a lot of energy is the nexus there around which everything can can pivot on the left or in front of us I should say is the reconfigured mall. It's important to know that the buildings that you see right here are actually part of the mall. So we're taking existing mall structure and we're turning it reorient turning it inside out. So, we are not just tearing something down and building something new. We're doing our best to try to use the existing infrastructure as best we can to facilitate this new vision. And it's really centered around amenity rich plaza area. We want to bring vehicles in and through and allow for convenient access and parking. We've got bicycle lanes that are designed in here that we'll see and highlight a little bit later. Um, we've narrowed the scope of the retail, the small shop retail. As you can see here, everything on the lower level is intended to be that retail. Um,

what do you mean just smaller stores as opposed to bigger stores? Yeah, just we've reduced the amount of small shop retail square footage. So today, we'll get to this in a minute, we have, you know, there's a tremendous amount of small shop retail interior facing space and the scale which is just unsustainable in today's world, right? From a leaseability own standpoint. So, we've reduced that to what we believe is productive, leasable, long-term, sustainable space. It's all centered around an environment that people are actually going to want to spend time. So, you can pause it right there just for a sec. That's okay. I got that's okay. I got a slide.

Sure. So just jumping into the site plan because you can't see all the little details just through one fly through but um I able to point this thing right on the screen. Yeah. Touch. Oh yeah. And you can paint on the screen with your paper.

Oh, perfect. Okay. So this if you remember this is a two-level mall. So we're looking at the lower level plan right now. So the food court entrance would be somewhere around here today. just you go. So all the anchors are planned to stay in place. We demolish what's currently the Sears or the old Sears box goes away to make way for part of the multif family as well as the new road configuration coming in and in turn create this amenity uh plaza which we'll get to some of the details of in a minute surrounded by smaller shop oriented retail and the bulk of what's now the inter interior mall on the lower level if you'll recall Cinemark today has parking underneath it so it's covered parking The intent is that you would extend that covered parking into what's today part of the interior mall to just provide more convenient covered parking. It's proximate to both the J C Penney, Sinmark as well as the spot. It's become like really nice high quality parking for people that'll get used multiple times a day. And then we also have a retailer front entrance here as well as on a lower level of Target.

So you'd be hoping to have another big box retailer there. Is that what that's for? Yes. Yes. To the interior parking is through the existing cinema parking. That's correct. So you would existing parking and you would continue down here. You won't even realize it's separate. Okay. But the only way to get into it is from the north. That's correct. Yes. So from the west from the west the west. Yes. But yes, the idea would be there's retailer here. The lower level of targets right here where their back house is. And then there's two more opportunities. Again, facing this way is the entrance for multiple we call box retailers. Oh, there is. Yes. I thought you had like warehouse stuff there.

So only about a third of this lower level of what used to be Dillards is taken up by Target's Logistics. Okay. There's another 70ish thousand square feet that there's opportunity for more retail. Oh, good. Yes. Now, are have you been talking to anyone? Like, are there any names on the table?

We certainly have, but I I'll tell you from personal experience in those conversations. The first question they ask is, "What's happening with the rest of the mall?" Because they're not willing to go into their committee and stand in front of their executives and say, "Yeah, we should really go here, but yeah, we know we're next to a dead mall when there's no real plan for it." So, we've had a lot of interest and we think we've shown this, you know, quietly to some folks and said, "Hey, is this interesting to you?" And every one of them says, "Yeah, this is great. This exactly the type of thing we want to sign up for, but let us know when you're ready to go." So, moving to the second level as this is the part just to orient you again on which level we're on. So, second level, target entrance here. This is shown as basically commercial space. The lighter blue can really be a mix of a variety of commercial uses. We've talked about some retail. We talked about um uh some like higher density office. We've talked about medical office. There's a variety of different commercial level uses that works for in here. And you can see the aqua color is more of the I would call like co-working or smaller density um office suites on the second level, which is because in most places second level retail struggles pretty significantly. So doing a more sustainable use on that second level is is divisionally see. Another thing to point out here is so the entrance that you walk in today to on the second level on that upper level parking walk in the second level mall entrance here and you walk into the front of Santa Mark there that same path of travel will basically still be intact. This parking will allow for an entrance right through there. Don't if I can clear I clear that

I can clear it for you. Thank you. So you see a little hallway there for lack of a better term. It's It's really an entrance. Um, and we're going to reconfigure where the lobby actually is. It would be pulled in a little bit. You'll essentially, if you're a customer for CineArk, you'll take the same path of travel that you have been, but you'll be it's really the first the second level you're coming in at though, right? That's right. So, if you park here, this is the second level. Yeah. It's upper. If you come in and park under ASMR, you would just go up these escalators right there and be at their front entrance. So, the escalators are staying

uh there will be escalators. It won't be the same ones, but yes, there will be escalators. Yes, they'll be positioned. So, that darker blue section there, you said it's going to be like co-shared office space on the co-working smaller office. Yes, that's the second level. That's correct. So, when I walk in to go see a movie, I'm also see that co-working share space as well. Right. It's in the hallway. Uh if you keep walking, there's a there's a exterior pathway here. So if you kept walking past the entrance for you could, but there's going to be like the indoor connection is what you're saying. The cinear entrance is going to be the cinear entrance. That's correct.

And then the co-working entrance is going to be a co-working entrance. Then are you going to have a walking path also for the light work along that side? So right here, we'll get into a detailed plan, but right here, that's where the elevative and the stair core is to get from this level here up. So if you were parking, let's say, in that parking covered parking area, you could walk right there through the elevator. Remind me again what that orange is underneath the dark blue. Sorry. Remind me again what the orange is on the first level. Uh reset. Okay, so small box retail. smaller box retail that will have an elevator or an escalator that goes up to the second floor with a teleworking space.

So, this is all exterior facing around the plaza. There's a small lobby here that provides covered essentially access between the plaza, the entrance of JC Penney and this extended covered parking area. So, all that feeds into this lobby and in that lobby is where that elevator would be. So on the second back to the second level. So that blue is all external facing second level. Yes. Yeah. It's a little hard to see. I can run we can run the video back and you'll see that there's a covered walkway just in front of I did see that. That was nice. So it is covered. That's correct. On the walkway. So any of those entrances will just open up to that covered walkway area. And how many levels are there all together?

Two. There's just two levels period. Correct. will keep both on the commercial side. The residential is five, right? Oh, yeah. We're just talking about Yeah, just just on the commercial side. Yeah. Pennies will still have the two levels. That's correct. Yeah. So, other than to answer that question, J C Penney basically nothing changes about their store itself. We'll we'll make sure to reorient exactly how this Okay. including lobby internet including all the stores, restaurants, entertainment. How many businesses were you going to h add? That's a tough question to answer. You don't have a number. Well, because it depends on the size and what

it depends on the size, right? You could have one really large.

Yeah, I'll go to this will answer that question better. So, here is the square footage today. Almost a million square feet. That includes Sears. includes all the interior malls that are really non non-productive space, right? But at the end, so the anchors are going to stay, we're adding this is that 110,000 feet you're asking before about box retail, uh 42,000 ft of retail, another 100,000 ft of commercial space, and then about 20,000 of that co-working. So, at the end of the day, we're reducing the overall square footage by about 300,000, but we're massively increasing the product productivity of everything that's left, right? So, we're getting rid of all that interior mall space. It's been very difficult to to fill and it's just too much for the ecosystem of retail that exists today. Same with Sears. And we're converting it to something that is mixeduse, walkable, and very productive from a a retail standpoint and a commercial use standpoint.

So, your existing anchors, you're decreasing a ton considering the Cinemark was 781. That's a tight. Okay. Yeah, there I think it's 81. Okay. Like, wait a minute. Yeah. So, this the existing anchors, basically the only thing going away from an anchor square footage standpoint is Sears, which no longer is operating anyway. So,

and where you've got Dillards, is that actually targeted now? That's well yeah that represents both square foot both levels of Dillard I'm sorry both levels of Dillards but 130,000 of that is already backfilled with target any other quick questions before I move on so one thing I want to highlight and this this came up a couple different times through uh various conversations was it's hard to kind of imagine scale of of what we're talking about here from a plaza standpoint. So, we wanted to show that this is 1.7 acres of total space. So, in a scenario where, you know, we have this flexible community space that you could shut down from time to time, do farmers markets or any sort of events similar to what the mall does today, this is a very substantial space. It's actually uh significantly bigger than the lawn space that's on the north side of Lauram uh of University Mall. And so we just want to kind of show that what we're talking about here is not just some kind of throwaway. It's a plaza that sits in the in the, you know, middle of this, but it's not really a dynamic space for people to to congregate in. This is a really substantive space here that can be used for these kind of events, but also when they're not Oh, here. So 95,000 versus 70,000 is the

That's backwards, right? That picture. Which one? Oh, no. That one's right. You had a before and after picture in your slides that were wrong or backwards. Sorry. Go ahead. So again, about 1.7 on the left and then it's what is that an acre and third or fourth on the right. And councelor Whipple has a question.

Oh, sure. So, I I like that it's a larger space, but it's just really confusing to me that your main road of path goes right through that. So, if you are doing events, people like you're you're closing off that that roundabout, but that's the main way to get up to the north where your parking is and everything else. Like, what? Sorry, west. Oh my gosh. Thank you, Becky. But we don't have that river house.

It's just it's hard for me to make sense of having the roundabout as like the core of the plaza. Is it because you feel like you need to have cars driving by there most of the rest of the time to drive traffic or Yeah. Retail will not be successful in today's environment unless we bring the cars into But the cars even like go directly to the parking lot from that roundabout. like they're still going up and around. So, they want to see it. They want to drive around and see what's there. They Yeah. Yep. Okay. Yeah. I mean% it's an unfortunate reality the retailers when they when they look at a site plan and they say, "Where's my visibility? Where's my access? Where's where's the proximate parking?"

So, it's okay to have the visibility of driving by separate from the access of you can't just get to the parking lot from that visible drive. Yes. And for a couple different reasons. Uh, I do think it's silly that we have amenities in the middle of the roundabout though. Oh, we just in the circle. That looks ridiculous. Yeah, I I agree with you. That's that's something that's not that's why it's not really highlighted in the explain. It's like it's kind of an old design.

But to answer to answer the question, so I think part of the answer is the way that the phasing on the multif family works. So the phasing is the these top phases over here are anticipated to be phase one and then these phases down here will be two or two or three however ends up getting broken out. These middle phases are anticipated to be the last phase and the reason for that is we want to provide this all this parking remains surface parking until the next phase of multif family development comes along gets converted and that allows for a very long time frame of people to uh one sort of learn what the new routes are, where the stores are, what their path travel is, where they should park um while they still have all this, you know, unused surface parking that they can rely Allen to park here and come to these stores. Uh the second thing is um the question was access. Why is there access and then parking separate? Is that right?

Yeah. Because that you can't just turn and get into the parking structure there, right? So there so there will be parking available in this area for many many years. And people will learn for instance this becomes really prime parking here. This all is very prime parking here. This is prime parking here. So, there will remain a lot of parking options for people and as they continue to use the the site, they'll continue to, you know, navigate and learn from cinema. It's already prime like it's full every weekend with Yeah. Yeah.

I I just it still feels odd to me that anytime you have an event, you would be closing down that roundabout because that really does look like the main I'll tell you that that's that's kind of a um best practices frankly for some of the best retail in the country, right? Think of Redmond Town Center one. We used to have a slide that we just didn't include today that shuts down their main entrance. They frankly have a lot more um artificial congestion because they don't have these alternate, you know, paths of travel that we necessarily have here. Um Kieran Commons is another one that does it commonly. they they shut down, you know, their center area for events all the time, which is the main kind of through fair to get people, but they have an opportunity for people to get around. Again, similar to this, kind of an alternative route to go around the project to get to the various parking areas. So, I mean, it works well. And and I would also say that it's not like events are happening daily or anything that we're really talking about community events that happen, you know, on occasion.

Yeah. Well, because the Thorum one, they have events there at least once a month at their their little park. So, that would be pretty frequent road closures for you. They don't have to close down their roads to have events at their space.

Honestly, we we looked at their project on a couple different fronts when we were evaluating design options for this. Couple things I'll say with respect to that. One was we didn't think we didn't like how they integrated or didn't really integrate their multif family with the commercial. that we felt like you just had to walk across parking lot to get to it. So, we wanted to make sure that this was much more integrated into the overall project. So, that was one thing. Um, and then the second thing is we didn't want a empty restaurant syndrome. So, when you have a big open space like the one that they have when it's not being programmed, which Cal and I have been up there mostly when it's not being programmed, kind of looks like, well, why should we go hang out there because there's really nothing going on. So, we wanted to make sure that we broke this down from a design standpoint in a way that looked active and vibrant and inviting even when it wasn't being used for those kinds of events.

But I I think you're still I agree with a lot of what Rachel's saying. You're still having the same problem with I mean it's a little better, but or where you have all your housing separated by the main thoroughare of the entire project. Like to me that just seems very odd and not not optimal. Yeah, I mean it definitely is separate. I don't know if you have an opinion about that you want to voice, but um I mean

it's like it's like I'm a family. I want to go back to the mall. Great. Okay. Oh, bubber now a very busy street to get there and you know it's not super safe to let my kids you know wander it seemed like kind of contrary to the thesis of like let's put a bunch of families right next to mall so they need the mall and then the main page institute I think our take on your housing on that access is that it's a it's a very low speed

we feel like it's a very low speed access with the roundabout the traffic coming in there it's very low speed it's intended to um, you know, feel more like a a a small drive versus a thorough fair, right? I mean, the intent is to move cars through but not move through fast. So, you know, we're we actually feel like the roundabout and the ability to multiuse program it gives a lot of flexibility and a lot of vibrancy to the area and and given that there are multiple points of um, you know, circulation to go around uh that are easily navigated that it it gives a a strong possibility of of having a lot of life. I mean, we're trying to bring a lot of life to the area, right? We don't want we don't want we don't want it to be just a traffic lane. Like we want to be able to really make it an amenity. And the challenge we were faced with is, you know, those retail partners I was mentioning, the anchors that we had to negotiate with, they would not approve a project that didn't have, you know, what they felt like was adequate access in and through project because you're because we're I mean at the core of what we're doing from a circulation standpoint is right now you're forced to go around the ring road. You're forced to get as far away from the project as you possibly can in order to navigate and then you come into the project, decide where to park, get out of your car, walk and do it all over again. Right? So we're trying to invite them to come in and through. And so when we move from moving from here to here that vehicle access that's critical for these guys to approve it. And so then we were faced with the challenge of how do we allow cars to come through here in a way that feels safe, feels inviting, still has amenity base around it. And and we've looked at many projects around the country that did it successfully and we think incorporate a lot of the lessons learned. Anything else before I move on to some of the amenity slides?

Okay. So, just two levels in the mall. Now, you're going to go over the amenities. Yes.

So, just real quick, as I mentioned, the one thing that we were concerned about, we didn't want this to feel cavernous. We didn't want it to feel empty when it wasn't being used. And so we tried to imagine how can we break this down into more human scale in a different maybe areas. This one being probably the main one here. The vision to be more of a larger gathering area that's right outside that main entry uh to what we'll call the lobby for now. It's kind of at the core of where this retail nexus starts. In addition to that, we wanted to provide, you know, a little bit more of a focus amenity area, which is right outside. This is the escalators I was mentioning before that go up to uh Cenmark. If you walk through there, that's the covered parking that exists today under Cmark. So, we want to provide a a different more evening oriented, probably a little bit more adultoriented gathering environment that played well with the entertainment component and the food and beverage that we envision being a large component of the merchandise mix here. And then obviously we wanted to provide a safe environment for families that's also maybe not as mixed in with everything else. And so we ride on kind of the opposite area outside of this cafe. you know, whether it's puffer fountains or um you know, holiday related amenities. We see that happening a little bit more of a I won't say isolated, but more of a dedicated family area where we can create some of those safety uh design features to make sure that it feels like people uh do feel safe to let their kids come down there and hang out and and aren't worried about their safety either from a vehicular standpoint or or otherwise. So, uh, here's a couple of the things that we've highlighted that other projects have done well, whether it's these heartscape barriers that are also benches that allow for that hard barrier so that you create that, you know, design areas where people can flow, you know, through this. So, so the kids aren't just running out into the street or something like that. Um, obviously ballards are component of that. We've al also seen landscaping used really well. So, we're trying to incorporate each of

those design elements into the overall plaza design to maximize the quality of the design, but also make it feel safe. And finally, here's here's the same types of things. Um, I'm blanking on the name of this project was project. One of them it's is it Riverton or stationing station. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so we we stole from them because we thought what they did was really good. For some reason, I thought you had done that project. What malls have you done? Me personally or Brixton Capital? Brixton.

Brixton did uh we're working on Everett Mall right now, which is a Top Golf Anchor project that's turning from a a traditional mall into like a mixeduse entertainment style. Uh, right now Trader Joe's is open, Alt is open, Top Golf's announced, but that's in process. Is this Everett Washington? Ever Washington. Yes. Uh and then we did Stockton, California, which was a conversion of a mall into we did grocery. We did some um larger soft goods uh retailers there. And then we also added a CL in that particular case we did climate control storage as a component in the back and sort of a non- retail space. So those are the ones that Brixton have done. I mean you go through a bigger laundry list of the ones I've personally worked on, but that's But you're with Brixton now.

That's correct. Does those relationships help you in future projects like your relationship with Top Golf? These relationships you're able to use those and do you find?

Yeah, sometimes I mean obviously has to meet their business need. We obviously talk to each of those partners about all all of our opportunities as they come along. Um but yeah, I mean relationships help all the time. I mean Target targets obviously was a big relationship we cultivated over a long time ended up you know culminating. We've talked to our relationships folks that have done other box deals about this and I mentioned we had talked to a couple of those retailers before and those are the types of conversations we're having all the time and um would love to be in a position to be able to be far enough along the process that they have confidence the vision that we are willing to talk to them about is is going to be effectuated. So, a couple of detail things here before I hand it back over to Robert. But, you know, one thing that is probably not quite as obvious is the amount of infrastructure that's required to be reworked or demolished in order to facilitate division that we're talking about here. So if you look on the right hand side the red hatch that's today that's all parking lot and it's a bit of a spaghetti junction of subgrade utilities whether it's storm water and all the various you know subgrade infrastructure that has to get reworked in order to make the way for all those buildings to eventually um so essentially what has to happen is this trunk lines that are scattered kind of all around need to be rerouted through this new I'll call it railroad even suburb so all that has to be done as part of the initial ial uh lift to the project and as you can imagine that's that's very expensive. In addition to that, we've got this blue area here which is the highiz plaza that we mentioned and then finally you've got all the components of the actual mall itself which to redevelop is is fairly extraordinary um in most cases and this is no no exception. So to help you guys understand the work that has been done so far to understand these details, you know, we've gone fairly deep at a conceptual level, I call it maybe even design development

level uh of work here from an architecture standpoint. You can see the various details, elevations. We've got a whole package that we put together to help our general contractors give us pricing so we understand what these challenges actually are um on a kind of high level and what what it's going to take from the infrastructure level and from the project level in order to effectate the the vision. So I I say that just to say we're not just coming to you with a grandio idea with no real understanding what it's going to take in order to build something like this. we've done a lot of the homework and bring this to you with the confidence that we can actually do what we have on the page. So with that, I'll turn over to Robert who's going to

So really quick, I like how you have the covered, you know, in front of the stores. What percentage of the um storefronts are covered? They're all I think they're almost all covered. I would say maybe the only exception would be These cafes may have just minimal co covering, little entrance covers, but there's walkways in front of all of these along this side. And then, of course, these retailers will just have the typical,

you know, whoever it is of TJ Maxx or whatever entry would be typical. There we go. All right. I'm just going to take a minute and walk through uh HTRZ's and um and that process. So, several years ago, the city of Utah created uh the housing and transit reinvestment zone act uh legislatively and this act uh allows cities to propose an HTV zone to the state and it has to be within a certain radius of either heavy rail, front runner, uh light rail or bus rapid transit. In this case, we have a unique situation. we're within uh the radius of both FrontRunner and the UVX line. Um and what's what the HTRC does is it enables a portion of incremental tax revenue be captured over a period of time uh to support the development uh and the extraordinary development costs. Um it does require uh mixeduse housing at least 15 house 50 housing units to the acre and a minimum of 12% affordable. The slide says 10% it's a typo. 9% affordable at the 80% AMI level and 3% affordable at 60% AMI level.

So is that Go ahead. Is that 50 units per 23 acres or just for the housing acres? It it's the housing within the zone. So whatever acreages is within the zone requires a minimum density of 50 units to the acre within the zone. And about the AMI, is that based on our county, state, or city AMI? I believe it's county, but we've got Ben here for the Yeah, it's county. That's correct. And it's based on uh reports that were provided by the housing and urban development

and would you intend to do the affordable units scattered throughout all the housing or all together? So our proposal right now is um we have a section of the of the project which is the very west side uh which is the existing mobile home park that we're proposing as town homes and we would actually propose them as for sale affordable town homes. So they would meet those levels on a for sale basis and we think that you know helps this helps the city meet you know its for sale uh desires have for sale product um would be owner occupied um and affordability and then the balance so that would be a big chunk of the requirement would kind of come up front um in that phase and then the balance would come over time in the in the rest of the project

just scattered throughout that proportion ally through the yeah through the project. So there's never a time where we would build a portion of the project unless we proportionally build the affordable portion or we've already met it. who manages these affordable units as far as like do you guys have to keep managing it over the years qualifying their income and yeah like

so so the for sale um Ben you're going to have to tell me on some of the uh specifics around for sale but there will be a deed restriction right that'll and that will be uh managed um through restrictions on the property and and title and lending um the for rent is a management process So the rental management company has to make sure that they are meeting the the requirements, the minimums, tracking the incomes and and the reporting. Do you guys do your own rental management or do you use someone? We do our own rental management. Yes.

Um just wrapping up the slide, 80% of the tax increment um revenues are eligible uh to be captured over a maximum of 25 years. and it does require the city to adopt zoning for the development uh before sending the proposal to the governor's office of economic opportunity. Um we we talked about kind of the steps, you know, this is the the governor's office. Um they're looking really to promote transit, promote affordable housing and redevelopment. Uh especially within those corridors uh where trans where the state has invested significant capital in transit. So um you know they've they've provided this as a tool to help facilitate uh those processes. So some of the uses uh for HTRZ increment uh income targeted housing costs structured parking enhanced development costs extra extraordinary development costs. You know, when we look at a site like this, there are significant, for example, utilities that crisscross the site that all have to be re uh realigned and and put into the new roadway alignments. Um and those are those are extraordinary costs. Uh horizontal costs, vertical costs, land purchase costs, um costs of bonds, and administration of the HTRZ are all eligible costs that can be paid uh by the HTRZ. And you know the purpose of this is ultimately to build value. Um when we look at the any tax increment financing tool HTRZ included we look at a base asset value which is the is the blue here. And you know assuming that it's it's in a situation where it's not going to increase on its own. It needs a it needs a little shot in the arm. Uh this is what the HTRZ can help do. And so it it

allows to increase asset values over time and at the end of that time period there's a there's a new basis uh that becomes taxable and the increment which is the the area in green is what's uh captured and available for development costs. Councelor Whipple has a question. Yeah. So the problem with these projections of the the increased revenue and everything from the project are actually the existing pro town center mall right because it wasn't that long ago what 25 26 years ago and the first chart that you gave us was showing the revenue just plummeting

from today but it was you know it it did reach a high in 2007 seven, right? But that still would have been during the time that we'd only be getting incremental amounts. Now that that thing is fully developed and everything, it's an albatross.

Yeah. I guess what I would say to that is market conditions shift and um you know, we are we we are reacting Brixton is reacting to the market, right? And and looking at what is today and what could it be in the future, right? and and I don't know that we're asking, you know, in this in this scenario, um the city's not taking any risk, right? If we don't do anything, then we're in the blue box here for the next 25 years, unless something changes. Maybe maybe something economically changes and suddenly it becomes financially feasible for us to come in and redevelop without any tax increment. But maybe not, right? And and we don't foresee that happening. Um so, you know, a tax increment financing tool is necessary if we're going to turn the trajectory of law and this has happened in in Utah. We take ORM as an example. Um

ORM's best example.

So, the University Mall uh like all malls uh found itself in a similar situation year a few years ago. with declining revenue, declining sales, declining property tax values. Um, and the owners of that mall uh worked with the city of ORM to implement a CDA, right? It was a a a fairly extensive CDA that included additional uh square footage for office, hotel, uh retail, and multif family units uh and over a 10-year period. The

theirs was a 10-year period as opposed to build out was a 10ear period. Okay. What was their period on there?

30 years. Make sure I got that right here. 20 years. Sorry, my slide is kind of cut off here. Um, and this was their projection of the the tax increment increase over time. Now, what they were able to accomplish there, I think you're all familiar with the additional shops, restaurants, office space, uh, the hotel and multif family was added there. You know, obviously, Provo Town Center is a different wall. So I don't think office is a a use that we would propose because we don't think it's commercially viable. But you know in at that location they were able to do that and uh you know the the proof is really in the pudding and this is fairly small text but the 2013 base value was $129 million. The 2025 assessed value was uh over $500 million. So four and a halffold increase over the time period. Um and the investment paid off.

But what year did ORM start theirs their their tax increment financing part? 2018 actually one. So they're still not seeing any of this benefit. uh not not till not till 2038 but it's their school district. What uh what is the ex your estimated total of the of the um gap or the half the increment that you expect? Yeah. So Justin, do you want to

Yeah. So what we've requested is an honorable amount right around $20 million. I mean the the gap itself if you really take it out it's probably closer to 80 but based on our financing projections we we see the gap in a bondable amount of about $25. That's what we're requesting. So 25 years or 20 million

bondable amount. So that doesn't necessarily is B in that case because there's those payments are going to a bond holder at that point. So what we're looking for is an upfront bond going out to go to offset infrastructure costs of approximately 20. Mhm.

So where we are uh today, we have been to the planning commission with uh four requests and those will be coming to you um for your consideration and we wanted to just touch on the requests that we made at planning commission some of the feedback that we heard and and what we think our request and the need is uh when we come before you uh as city council. So first um as I mentioned in the in the slide deck here uh the application for the HTRZ actually comes from the city and the zoning uh needs to be in place. So, we are in the process of requesting a reszoning of this property uh to accommodate this project. And that step involves um uh what we've requested is an ITOD zone, amending the general plan to accommodate the IT zone and a text amendment to the ITOD zone. One of the challenges that we face is finding a zone within the Provo city ordinances that accommodates something like this. And so the ITOD zone is the most um favorable. It's the the closest thing that that can accommodate something like this, but it needs a few tweaks. Um one of the requests that we made was that uh some tweaks we made to it would allow us to build town homes that are for sale. And some of the feedback that we heard from planning commission was, well, we don't think town homes are an appropriate use in an ITOD zone. It should be more dense. And I just want to point out that um the project on University Parkway River's Edge built town homes within an IT zone four years ago, but those are for rent. And and within the text of the zoning, you can actually build them for rent because of the law standards, but you can't sell them individually because the lot sizes get too small. So the requests that we made were to accommodate, facilitate that use.

planning commission recommended not approving that. They didn't feel like town homes were an appropriate use within the ITOD zone. But again, I I come back to we're following precedent here that town homes have been approved uh in an ITOD zone but not for sale. So, you know, that's that's uh something that we need to consider. The other text amendment request that we had made was regarding setback requirements adjacent to uh residential zones. And uh the request that we made was that building heights be allowed for every foot horizontally um that you could go up two feet. Um and planning commission felt like that was uh too steep and they prever preferred the transition language that is in the ITOD zone. However, the the language that is in the IT zone currently requires within the first 100 ft of any residential zone, you can only be three stories high with a gable roof. Well, if we come back to maybe we get back to the site plan here, get to a better I think I can get a better one here. Okay. So, we have residential zone here, here, here, here, and here. And uh those those residential zones primarily house duplex uh units and multiplex units. And we just want to point out that if we if we have a 100 foot setback limited to three stories in height that it dramatically reduces the density that we can fit on this project and uh by about

call it 250 to 300 units. So it's about a quarter of the units. Um and and one of the challenges is that it affects the way that the parking lays out and and so um we think there's room to work around this the setback from residential uh properties. Um you know we had proposed 2 ft of vertical for every foot of horizontal. I think we could probably you know come to a a 1 foot to 1 ft. So every foot of horizontal to one foot of vertical that that increases that set by setback by about double from what we had proposed in the in the tech. But that those are um two very critical issues for us on the reszone uh that make this project viable or unviable and so we we need to make sure that we get really clear on those.

So what exactly is behind you? Is there a church with the church? So, we have a church here, a church here. This is uh open space that the church owned, and then we have a duplex, duplex, dup duplex. Couple of duplexes here, and then two here. Those are all duplexes. Are they owned or rented? I couldn't say. They're all HAS. They're all HOAs. I'm pretty sure. Sorry. What? What? I didn't hear.

I think they're pretty much HOAs. Daniel lives in the one around. Yeah, Daniel moves in. Ha. It's actually a really nice HOA here, too. Okay. Legal drive around for just for context. Um Oh, it's what you drive through before you get to this. Yeah, they maintain it. Well, yeah. This building is closest right here uh to any residential areas. Um and I guess this one as well. They're both I don't know 50 ft that. And was there a street between you and the residential property? There's a there's a driveway. Yes.

But there's no street going down there. Like you you'd be on to their property line. Like your property lines touch. Yes. Yeah. The property line. But from from our property line, we're back 50 feet. Can I ask a question? Um, did you explore concept plans that use some of those pounds out of the buffer so that you don't have to amend the TOD zone?

So, yes. Again, 100 ft is a long ways and it just reduces the density dramatically. So, um, you know, in this in this area, we we do have some homes that could could potentially buffer there. We don't have as big an issue here because the property line steps back, right? We just have more room to work. This side, um, you know, we have one little corner here that gets close, but it's not even it's not within 70 ft or so. You know, it's it's fairly removed. But then we're kind of pinned on this south side by the mall as it exists. And so, um, you know, what we're talking about here is, you know, really, it's really just density, you know, and and building a a dense urban project, right, on a redeveloping mall. And how do we how do we fit that in? And like I say, I think we can adjust that the ratio to a 1:1, which is a 45 degree angle and and be a minimum of 50 ft from the property line.

What do you mean by that? You mean having it go what I'm what I'm suggesting is, you know, we're we're 50 feet from the property line on this side. That's as close as we get. And we're 50 feet tall. We're 50. 50 ft up. So for every 50 feet horizontally we go up 50 feet and that results in a 45 degree angle from the from the ground to the top of the roof. Gotcha.

Um one just thing to high just a reminder to highlight is not only is it present feasibility issues to lose that many units but we also have the requirement on the HDRZ side to have enough density to meet that 50 units per acre. So we have to have density to make meet the requirements for the HDRZ. It's a little bit of a double whammy that So, so could you put some of the town homes here and maybe move this building over there?

That's what I was Well, you can see the building. I mean, there's probably a lot of sliding around that we can do and and you know, we're more than happy to look at it, but it it will reduce the density available on the site without somehow finding a way to

I think I'd be more comfortable with you trying to finagle it. Maybe some of those town homes, those town homes are out on an island and that's your 80% AMI and your 60% AMI. They're the ones that are going to need to be closer to transit in my opinion than your for rent at market rate apartments. So, you've kind of you've kind of discriminated against them, kind of pushed them out instead of putting them closer to the transportation ups. I'd like to see more of that integrated into your project and have you kind of tweak it so that we can see more of that.

Is there a distance? I mean right now right now it says 100 ft which is you know a quarter to a third of the site you know in depth. I mean is there is there is there some feedback on Well I I would be uh I'd be okay being creative about the setback. Um my biggest heartburn about this is home ownership. We we made that very clear from the beginning. 87 out of what is 340. It does not. That's a nod to home ownership. What we don't need in this part of Provo is a bunch of more apartments. What we need is more home ownership. And so I feel strongly I I like what I'm seeing. I want this project to happen. And you're going to tell me it doesn't pencil out. And I wish uh I I hear that. I'm just saying we've got to figure out a way to be more creative because the kind of split of 1300 and 87 um I understand if it's one big building it's hard to split up one big building but we've got separate buildings you could take a couple of those those bigger buildings and make those condos or something like that. Um I feel very strongly uh about more home ownership and to me 87 doesn't even come close. We talked to other projects about 50/50. Now, I realize not everyone on the council may see that the same, but I do I I feel strongly that we need to be we need to be creative about figuring that out. Now, if that comes to setbacks and other things, I' I'd be willing to be creative. Um, but I would just I would say that the home ownership in my mind doesn't even come close. So, not that this may matter to you, I don't know. Um, condo developers typically plan on

selling two to three units a month. That's about the absorption rate in a in a development project. And they can they can plan about a year to absorb. So, they can build 24 to 36 units in a building and absorb those over a year. and they can manage the carry cost of of doing that. Well, any one of these buildings is you know approaching 200 units multi family multif family we absorb on lease up 15 to 20 units a month and uh we can absorb in in 12 to 15 months is typ our typical absorption period. I know it may not matter to you guys, but from a financial standpoint, those are real challenges.

Yeah. That we have to face. Yeah.

And so, you know, if we can only absorb, you know, sell two to three units a month, I mean, how how fast how long would it take us to sell 600 units, right? Those are the challenges that we face that we're trying to overcome. Um and and it's why frankly we don't see condo projects being built uh at the same rate we see apartment units being built. There's also a shift in the marketplace of uh renters by choice who who can rent and and it's especially true today. It's not always been true and it will shift back. But today what you rent for and what you what you pay in in terms of a mortgage, there's so much disparity between the two that people are choosing to rent, right? Even if they can afford to buy, they choose to rent because it's that's a better financial choice for them. And it's been happening for several years and we foresee it happening for the next several years. So, if we're trying to plan housing um and housing availability, like policy wise, we can put a stake in the ground and say this is the way it's going to be, but the market may not respond.

Yeah. But at the same time, you're asking us money for something that's not necessarily in our goals, right? So, I think there needs to be more more give and take from the other end. And you're asking a lot from us. Yeah. And I and I would say I do care that this is successful. I I do care about the finances and I also believe that there's got to be some way to figure this out. Um we've worked as we look at this project again. I I just can't imagine moving forward with that kind of that number of apartments and that kind of home ownership. it just on that I personally think I would say well then we we should wait

agree just just me personally um and I really want this to happen I love what you put together I like what you're doing and I want you to be successful and I want the city to be successful too and I feel very strongly that we've got to be more creative in figuring out a way to to do that we know the market is there we have so many young singles that want to own and they want small They want they want apartment owning. You had some of that in your comments on the planning commission. I believe the market is there to to do that. Like I Yeah, at least one of those buildings for sale. Um is okay.

So I have a couple kind of related questions around housing. What is your current plan with the manufactured housing that would be displaced for these town town homes? I don't take that Kyle Justin. Sure.

Uh yeah, so the plan currently is that um there's a little somewhere between 30 35 at the moment that we anticipate if it happened today that would be impacted, but obviously this is not happening today. So one of the things we've offered is provide at least 18 months worth of notice to anybody, you know, from the time we would actually need it vacated. So, we want to give them plenty of time and then during that 18month period, we really want to work with each of them individually to figure out what the right solution is for them because the the range of of desires and potential outcomes varies widely. Some of those old homes are very old and may not be able to be moved. Some of them can maybe easily be moved and we don't necessarily know what their, you know, housing goals are either. So, we want to take that time in order to kind of individually work with each of them to figure out what the right solution is. I mean there are varieties of different things that they could do but we haven't had those conversations yet and we want to make sure that there's plenty of time in this process to have those conversations. So like I said we've committed to you know minimum 18 months could be potentially longer than that but 18 months of of notice for them. Is there is there willingness for more substantial commitments like to help them relocate? I think these are some of the most vulnerable members in our community. Um again I'm with Craig. I want I want to find a way to make uh this happen, but I think each of us have sort of our red lines. Like this to me is a red line. Like we're not going to displace these people and not help them relocate and revote for this. So, um 18 months, it's nice to get that a head start, but you know, I talked to one woman who just, you know, saved up all her money, put a mortgage on this on on one of the homes, and now it's like for her to find the money to relocate this in a place that works with her life is like just catastrophically uh you know, impactful to her personal financial situation. So, I recognize you have constraints, but like uh the idea here is to find a win-win for our community, but also for you all. And so, that's just something I want to be clear about.

Yeah, understood. And I'll just from an operational standpoint, uh we don't allow folks to move in. So, meaning nobody can just come in and legally just buy a mobile home park, mobile home from somebody else because one, we want to know who's in there and two, we want to make them aware of this scenario. So somebody comes in to says, "Hey, we want to acquire this homeowner here." We said, "Well, okay, here's probably can't do that and here's why." So we we try as best we can to avoid those situations by making sure that there's transparency with us so they can be made aware of, you know, those situations. We do not allow on our end for new folks to move in for all the reasons we just talked about.

And haven't you been doing that for a while? What what's the last time that you took in a new I don't know exactly but it's at least been a year probably a couple years that we had that all the lease I I didn't realize that people purchase So do they rent this the spot from you the land and then they provide their own they buy the house I thought you own both some mobile parks do operate that way in our case the individual owns it's their home typical and then they lease the land on the lot bank correct you know And then I have another question. What

can I just add on that? There there are challenges around mobile home parks because there are age restrictions on moving mobile homes. Sometimes they they age out or they get they get degraded enough that they can't be moved. So the question becomes, well, whose job is to maintain the mobile home? Like if they can't be moved, whose job is that? Is that the land owners or is that the homeowners? And and those are questions that we, you know, they're sticky, but we don't believe the land owner is responsible to maintain individuals mobile homes.

Don't get me wrong, you you'll uh you'll hear no argument from me about the problematic nature of mobile homes as a as a model, but nonetheless, they're still residents of our community. Um, okay. So, my other question is, um, are there any additional asks you all plan for this project that are not currently on the table? like additional tiffs from like a a performance perspective on tax sales tax. Yeah, we've requested a sales tax share component. It's not technically part of the HDRZ. And we've requested a a PID, right? A PID, but not in order to put additional increment on, but basically just to take the revenues that are proposed to come in and use that as the bonding mechanism. So, it's not an additional uh monetary request. It's just a structural.

That's that's the vehicle for the bond. That's correct. Yeah. So, am I missing anything I forgot? I think that's it. And to be clear, just to make sure everybody stands, a PID does not obligate the city necessarily. I mean there are there are ways that a city can participate but right as of right now I don't think we're asking that the city necessarily guarantee blessing is to give back a portion of the roof of the revenues that we generate either sales tax or property tax over a baseline and be able to monetize that to help pay for the budget. Yeah. So we're not asking for any of the existing tax base we're asking for a portion of income. Yeah.

And how much of that exactly are you asking for? uh HCRZ requ uh is 80% and we requested right now our model was 50% on the sales tax half a percent which is half a% yeah which going back to the mobile home issue um like right now there is one of those trailers listed for sale on Zillow like somebody's trying to actively sell one of these homes in your part. Oh, yeah. I had flagged it and and sent it to development services a few months ago when I first saw it's been up there since October, so they're not moving it.

I don't know if that could be bought to move. I don't know. That's right. Yeah. The listing just did say that that it must be moved. Yeah. Yeah. We have had folks come in that want to purchase their vac and then move it to another side, land, mobile park, whatever it is. So we will generally allow that obviously to eventually vacate. So

and I I talked to some of you there before. Um you said that there are 30 to 35 units affected. I know that you know some people have moved out have left their their properties. Um, so how many of those homes have already been vacated and do you have any more that are in the process of of being vacated? I mean, I think there's always usually a couple that are in process of, you know, legal turnover,

right, for for violations and things like that reason. It's very very few that we force directly violations on usually reasons. Um, but that 30 to 35 includes folks that have already moved out. That's not necessarily mobile home trailers or mobile home uh units that are sitting there because there are there are I think two that were in the process of either removing or demolishing right. So yeah, I the reason I ask about that is um I don't know exactly how many households are potentially affected by this right now because I know some of them are already in the process of leaving before we do any of this.

Yeah. Um and I'm honestly surprised that you don't have more specific numbers for us on that where you can't say, "All right, there are still 30 units that are in full compliance. We've got three that are in in violation and so we expect that they'll be gone before we even consider moving forward with that. Well, I can tell you all but five are in some level of non-compliance operationally or financial. So, how many how many of those do you you know consider booming out is a little question. I can't exactly answer your right your question.

But if there are only five households there that are in full compliance with the the restrictions and covenants of living in the mobile home park um where there could be through normal legal processes a way to to remove them. If this weren't happening, then that's that's a very different situation, right? that you would need to work with five residents or five homes to get the reason we haven't done that necessarily approach. Right. Right.

We could we could just play the hammer down on everybody and fully enforce I because no there's not one tenant not one tenant that has an active place. They're all in the whole it's called. So we have a legal right to do a lot of things. We're just don't think that's the right thing to do. And I think that's that's actually an important thing for our community to know. Yeah. That some of the people who are living here are vulnerable not just because of their socioeconomic status, but because they are actually not in compliance with the current requirements of the place that they're living right now.

And oftentimes I would say with with normal standards of safety and health. So like these that's that's a complicating factor that we we need to consider. Some of these people may not have on their own strong rights to remain in this area already. It doesn't mean that they're good options for them that they could afford elsewhere, but it it adds color to the conversation. Scott Henderson.

Speaking in Mayor Judkins absence, um there's a couple points that she wanted me to bring up. I think for those properties that you've discussed that may still be there. I think she really wanted to look at a target of a $10,000 relocation allowance possibly for those ones as something to look at as part of your evaluation of the process. And another point that she wanted brought up in looking at is just to make sure as both staff and you look at your design that and and Becky brought that up. Make sure we have effective placement of transit locations close to those who would be most likely the user. So make sure we spend enough time on that. But those were a couple concepts that she wanted me to express for.

Thank you, Council Whitlock. Thank you. Um just a few more questions. I wanted maybe you said this and I missed it. You're saying so the the uh sales tax tiff is a half a percent over what period of time? Uh 30 30 years. So 30 years. Okay. And then um maybe this is a Cody question or your question but this HTRZ zone it also requires the city to take 15% of sales t of our sales tax and put it into a transportation fund. Can you explain how that works? I didn't fully understand all that from the past. That's a big question. Is that a coding question? Question. Isn't there like some requirement but

yeah there is. So with HDRZ a portion of it goes towards what? Oh, if you give me one second I'll Okay, I can ask another question in the meantime. So uh the the chart you provided the latest actual numbers were as of 2023. I was curious what were the numbers for 2024 and 2025. Yes, because we had the target going in 2024. Yes. Uh I don't have that but if we can that's something to say you have to share those section. Okay. Maybe we can get in. Do are you not in contracts with the current operators of the mall? Could they operators but vast majority of the retailers do not share their

do not share their sell their seats with you? Okay. Um and then uh Cody, you have that number? Yeah. Okay, cool. Cody Hill promise the economic development. So it's 15%. So 15% of the sales tax revenue that's generated within the HRC area goes towards the state TTIF fund. That's 15% of the total 8% or whatever is not 15% of the city's. I believe it's 15% of the state's portion. on the states. You say 15 or 50. Yeah. So you're saying the portion is what we already said at the state anyway. I believe that's correct. Is that Yeah. So it's not really relevant to us.

Yeah. So it's not it doesn't So I guess it just depends on what the denominator is. Is it from the state's a lotment or is it from the total? I think it's Yeah, I think this is the state program. It's not relevant to us. Okay. Yeah. It's not our point of sale uh portion. Yeah. Okay. Makes sense. And do we have an understanding of what all these percentages together are in actual dollar amounts? Sure. Yeah. Prepare for this. We wanted to have more general discussion, but plan to bring that forward to you on what projections actually look like annual standpoint. Thank you.

What are the Is that parking at the back of your second apartment complex? on the right talking. Yeah. Town homes. Oh, those are town homes. Yeah. With parking. Yeah.

And because it's a town home, it's not required to have the 100 ft. Right. Right. It doesn't Well, yeah. It doesn't go over the three stories. That is a question. is the the town homes those two story um two and three Tyler do you remember we we've shown a variety of different designs so I think those ones might just be the two stories but you have two and three it just depend we haven't fully fleshed that out and do all of your apartments have elevators

uh yes they do Um, this is what we call a wrap where it wraps around a parking structure. Those are five five levels of units from the ground floor and those have elevators and then uh these two in the middle are what we call a podium. So the the apartment units are built on top of the parking and so those are five levels on top of two levels of parking. So it's ends up being seven stories tall and they and they all have elevators. And the ones to the east also have elevators. Yes. Councelor Whitlock.

Um, just for our education, assuming you know your business, but I'd like to understand, so you said there's this like secular trend of malls failing across the United States. Um, explain to us why this will work. Like why will this work and be durable for the next 50 years as opposed to, you know, succumbing to this trend but just delaying it by a little bit.

Good question. Um so let me just reference some some of my work before I came to Brixton. So um I spent uh almost five years at CDL which is a public trader read out of Chattanooga Tennessee 85 malls. I spent five years with them redeveloping malls. Um their malls were mostly located in Midwest, Souththeast and a little bit in the northeast more in secondary and tertiary markets. And so they ended up seeing the front wave of the secular shift. So obviously as uh malls that were winning continue to win. So those that are the dominant we call fortress malls um continue to win. You think of uh City Creek, you think of just like everybody knows where it is. Everybody's willing to travel to go to it, right? Well, that takes the energy out of all the other malls that used to serve those areas. Um so that's that's been happening for a long time. So CBO was kind of at the front wave of that. And then I went work for a company called Mriarch, which is public trade rehab St. Monica, California. They had higher quality balls and but they had some of the lower tier ones. So, their options more like this asset had a little bit better demographics, a little bit better setting to reimagine what it could be instead of just saying, "Hey, well, maybe you just tear this down and do something completely different with it." we could reuse the fit. And the reason um the reason this works is because we don't have the slide in here, but if you think about how wall traditionally works, people come maybe sometime during the week to go to a movie or maybe eat the food court or something like that, but the bulk of the time that's spent in a mall is let's call it 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. in the evenings and then on the weekends it's fairly busy, you know, most of the time. Well, that means during the day and in the morning pretty much every time there is no activity. The only people there virtually are the people that operate the mall and the people that work at the mall.

So adding a mix of uses into the mix creates vibrancy. It creates traffic. It creates a self- sustaining uh story. So it basically becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. But the residents that are there like having the amenities. They like being able to walk down, go across a short uh pedestrian walkway and get their coffee and go eat a bagel or do whatever they're going to do in the morning. Then they may come back for lunch. They may even work there and work nearby and all of a sudden becomes activity throughout the day. So the so they are getting the benefit of that mix of use amenities. Consequently, they're typically willing to pay a premium to live there because it's a nicer lifestyle. And all those businesses are benefiting from the fact that they have residents that are able to walk down, typically have good disposable income to be able to spend on higher price point items and be able to make that a self-fulfilling prophecy. A traditional mall doesn't have that. A traditional mall relied on the model where Dillards and JC Penies and Macy's would come and they would drive a million visitors there because everybody knew who they were and you had to go to a department store and everybody in the middle relied on on that business to bring all the traffic. We all know what happened with Macy's and Dillards and Bons you go through the list of all department stores. When they when that business model collapsed, it took most malls with them. And so now there's not that anchor driver. So by creating this mix of uses, you're creating that activity that used to be brought by others. So hopefully that answers.

No, thank you. That that's helpful. Okay. I'm realizing we are definitely over time. Um the real numbers, where are the real numbers? Are they here now or are they coming in the future? Certainly. Real numbers as far as the actual dollar amounts of Yeah, we've got a model. We certainly willies work with us and will share all that and happy to Okay. I don't know if we have time to do this now or if we need to do another work meeting to finish this. Yeah. So, we we'd be happy to come in front of you and go through some more of the details, answer some of these questions. That was kind of what we

All right. Let's plan out another work meeting. We need to talk about more with this for sure. But thank you for all this extra information. Yeah. And let let me also just say this is tremendously exciting. This would be a wonderful asset the city. So, as you hear us deal with our challenges, especially it has to do with housing, no different than the challenges you have in trying to make the site work. Um, and I'm convinced that we can find a way to make that work. But I'm very excited about what this will bring to the city. We're excited about the possibility. Thank you. Thank you. All right. We're going to go ahead with a presentation regarding the 2027 budget. No. Yep. of administrative services

presented by Dan Flet break.

Get that five minutes back. Good. Good. You have tickets.

You're up.

Okay. Thank you, municipal municipal council. Uh we appreciate the opportunity to talk about administrative services. Uh every year when we um do this presentation, uh we've asked the Justice Court to do an update on the Justice Court. Um Judge Shriner is here today to do that update. He needs to leave uh as soon as possible. And so we're going to move his portion to the beginning of the meeting. Uh so judge, if you could come up and then uh Scott Henderson would also like to uh say a few words this time.

Well, with Judge Shriner's presentation, there's also a chance for a celebration. I think anytime a longtime employee sticks with us for 30 years, that is deserving celebration. Judge Shriner is celebrating that 30-year anniversary tomorrow, isn't it? All right.

Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm taken from your if you're going to shoot confetti confetti cabins, then go ahead and do that. But personally, I go back to my first days and Steve that at that time working in legal was a good friend was a good friend in a transition to a place where I didn't know anybody um at Provo City and you know we talked a lot about basketball, we talked a lot about kids, we did those things but that's something that really helped in an individual's transition. position, but Steve has always been that top performer. And you can see that in where he's at now, and he is amazing asset to our city and to our community. And somebody I'm very proud of to be able to call a friend. And we have his certificate for 30 years along with the recognition that he receives. And so, if we could, let's congratulate Steve together on 30 great years. Well, thank you everyone.

Start when you were 10. I started when I was 10 years old. Well, thank you. And the mayor's not here, huh? She had to leave and be in St. George here. Okay. Well, members of the council, then uh last year, that was my first address to the council. I stood before you prior to the NCAA basketball tournament last year. Uh last year's basketball team made it to the Sweet 16. I don't know if you remember that. And this year,

this year, still a little sensitive, by the The first week of the tournament was played last week and the Cougars didn't make it out of the first round. So, bummer deal as it relates to that. But being a former BYU basketball player, I thought it was appropriate that Dave McCann in yesterday's Desert News article about this year's team quoted the German poet Lewig Jacobowski and he said, "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it's happened. I kind of like that. Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened with a fabulous freshman including Bear Bachmeire and the football team and AJ Devonsson the basketball team and Jane Heden. Uh in track and field there's much for Cougars to smile about and you all running Cougar Town have much to be smile much to smile about. If you don't know Jane Heden Google her right Brian

Google her amazing

she's phenomenal. Anyway I'm grateful for the opportunity to address you here today. I promise to be brief. It's been a little more than two years since I began my tenure as the Provo Justice Court Judge. Um, and next tomorrow, as Scott said, will mark my 30 years having worked for Provo City. 28 in the Provo City Attorney's Office. Many of those years with Brian. And I loved working in the Provo City Attorney's Office. And I have loved working in the Provo Justice Court as your judge. and my colleagues at the court are amazing. Um, they are dedicated Provo City employees working to serve the citizens of Provo. And from my perspective, they are doing an excellent job. As you may or may not be aware, every four years, justice courts are required to go through a reertification process, and our court did so most recently in 2023. So, we'll probably be doing that again next year. Is that right, Rihanna? And as part of that reertification process, individual justice court judges are supposed to be meeting with uh the governing body that created the court at least yearly, which is why I'm here today. And part of that is to go over the budget of the court, to review compliance with the requirements and operational standards of the court, and to and to discuss other items of common concern. I'll leave the court's budget to people like Riannan who's our court executive and to Dan, but I want to assure you that the Provo Justice Court meets if not exceeds the operational standards set by statute and the judicial council of the state of Utah. Provo Justice Court is one of the larger

I know it's one of the larger if not the largest single judge justice courts in the state. Last year we handled about 11,000 cases you can and there's only 365 days in a year of which I think there's 260 that were open. So, when you think about it that way, we handled over 1,900 misdemeanor criminal cases, uh over 2,200 small claims cases, and uh over 6,600 traffic cases. So, the police are out doing their job to keep Pearl Street safe. So, we are pretty busy. Uh we had a large calendar this morning of over 70 cases and we have a calendar this afternoon. So, I appreciate you letting me go first because I need to get back. I don't have any pressing concerns that I need to bring up with this body. Um, if there are any questions or concerns that you have for me, feel free to ask. I know this is meant to be a short thing, but any member of this council, the mayor's office, the mayor is welcome to come to the Justice Court anytime. If you have issues, if you have questions, if you have concerns, feel free to talk to me directly, Rianna directly, and we'll respond. And you are again invited out to the justice court anytime you want to come. I want to thank uh each member of the council for the support that is given to the court and for your dedicated service to the citizens of Provo. I want you to know that it it doesn't go unnoticed. Again, I thank you for your time. I don't we have time for questions. If you have questions, feel free to ask.

Well, I would just say that with your efficiency, we should be thanking you. Okay. That's that's remarkable. Scott's been out to see how we work. And if you have any questions, you can ask Scott, too. He can give you an unbiased deal. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Jud. questions for judge before we go. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, judge. Uh just to go through uh administrative services, if we can turn to the next page. Those are right here. Okay,

let's see if I can. There we go. So, administrative services um includes these six uh divisions. So, city recorder, cyber security, facilities, finance, information systems, and then justice court that we just heard from. Most of the services we provide are focused internally. Uh, justice court obviously is is more external and city recorder is a mix. We all have customers that are internal and external, but most of them are internal uh services that we provide in administrative services. Uh in terms of the questions that were asked by the council, unfunded and underfunded needs, we'll talk about those uh on the next slide when we discuss supplemental requests for the FY27 budget. Uh fee changes, there are no fee change requests uh within administrative services. Uh requests that will increase ongoing operation expense. Again, we'll talk about those uh in the supplemental requests. And then in terms of current budget constraints at this point in time there are none. Uh and council budget priorities uh we always uh welcome and uh hope that we can be very helpful to the council in providing any kind of information information or support uh that they need for that you need for your priorities. uh in terms of cyber security and when we talk about supplemental requests, we have a couple of requests that that we're asking for this year. Um the first one is contractual increases and these are are are simply contracts that we have in place um primarily Artic Wolf that we use um to secure our networks. uh and uh we have contractual agreement. We have a you know uh terms in those agreements where there's escalation in

price on a yearly basis. And so that's what that $20,200 is. Um the other area that we are requesting uh additional support in cyber security is we would like to add an analyst. Right now we have one person uh Tyler who's with us today and uh he's just exceptional in terms of monitoring our monitoring our network not only during normal business hours here but offsite weekends vacations sick leave you name it. We would like to be able to have a little more backup there. Uh unfortunately the the bad guys uh aren't letting up their pressure at all. In fact, it only intensifies with each passing day, each passing year, each passing, you know, global u uh event that takes place. And so that's one area that we would like to increase the budget. In terms of information systems, we have contractual increases uh and those primarily rel relate to existing uh software that we have in place OnBase, Cayenta and City View. And so those increases total 18,960. Um last year we implemented a new website uh for the city and the ongoing support of that website is 124,000. uh and that's what you see that increase there for. And then we have um some hardware central disc storage infrastructure that that provides support for throughout the city uh including public safety and uh the equipment itself is starting to get to be near end of life. Uh and so we need to replace that and that's 410,000. Now, the 410,000,

we're still working on that to see if there's ways that we can um spread that out over a few years. Um if there are some of it, some of the equipment that we can replace and some we can defer. Uh but in total, it's the 410,000. And then justice court, uh again, we have contractual increases. The two primary drivers there are uh the building that the justice court is in is leased and in that lease agreement there are increases on an annual basis. Um the other item is that uh we contract for security services at the justice court and so um some of it in in that 17,908 relates to the security. So those are

So is that the the deputies? You talked about the contracted. Yeah. So when you go to the justice court, they're not Provo City police officers. they're um it's a security service that that my understanding is and Rihanna can talk to it more than I can but that uh the justice court has found that to be a very efficient and cost-effective way um and a secure way to provide security at the justice court. Is that fair to say Rihanna?

Yes. and having uh you have Provo City police officers at the door screening people or handling security. It create this conflict of interest if it's the same on the street side of course. So um so I won't go through every one of these. I will say that the department um we just have excellent employees in administrative services and the the accomplishments are numerous and significant. Um uh and and this is just a very very highest level of kind of what has been accomplished over the past year. Uh in city recorder um Heidi earned certified municipal clerk and Utah certified clerk designations both last year. um implemented a number of improvements in document management, uh did 24 employee newsletters, uh and was elected to positions with the Central Utah Recorders Association and Utah Municipal Clerks Association. So, I think it's fair to say that that we have a recorder that's very very active in the in the recorder community and uh that brings a lot of value to Provo City. Um in terms of cyber security provided incident response services uh 247 risk and advisory support for multiple application and system reviews uh 66 technology projects uh that improve security uh and updated strategies continues Tyler works on uh consistently staying ahead of the bad guys and does an excellent job of that. Um key accomplishments for facilities uh completed an emergency sewer line replacement at fire station 3. Did upgrades to service now which is software that uh that facilities utilizes to provide service throughout

the city to all the departments. Did a remodel of station 26 kitchen, new construction at the airport, stucco at the Peaks Arena, uh and started a 5-year elevator replacement plan at the library. our our elevators at the library are nearing end of life. Uh finance received the government finance officers association distinguished budget award. Uh and then also we received GFOA um recognition for the annual comprehensive financial report and popular annual financial reports. Uh we uh received a clean audit opinion on our audited financial statements. We issued uh wastewater revenue bonds this year and completed a sign a significant Cayena software upgrade uh in conjunction with customer service uh in our information systems group. Uh information systems received 2025 Utah information technology excellence award. Uh the 2025 visionary digital inclusion trailb blazer award. the ArcGIS open data hub uh they launched and again they they also supported 66 technology projects uh and and a very significant project is they launched the redesignprovo.gov gov website. And then finally, the justice court completed 88% of traffic cases within 90 days, 89% of criminal cases within 180 days, and 98% of small claim claims cases uh with within 270 days. Um so as you can see we provide a very diverse set of services but uh um I think we've done that in an excellent fashion and plan to do that again this year. So, I just asked council if you have any questions or

any questions, counselor. Sorry, I couldn't see you. Um, I just have a couple questions on the servers that you you have. I'm just just curious why why do we have it on prem? Is that like required by law?

I'm gonna let Josh address that. So specifically we're talking about the disk that's on prim uh that we have a lot of services that are actually still here. We are required by law to maintain localized server rooms and materials for our n dispatch center. So we look at the cost of disk in the cloud comparative to this disc that we run locally. It's way less cost to the citizens of Provo. So it almost doubles our cost if we were to move it all to the cloud.

What what do we have on the cloud? We have a various set of services. See things like workdays, cloud-based services. We have a very hybrid level approach. But each time we look at the actual costs over a seven-year cost, we compare that to say if it makes sense to move to the cloud, we do. So okay, in this case, it just yeah, it doesn't make sense monetarily. I had a great question. So the 410 for servers, is that a complete

replacement or is that one? So and this is specifically disk space storage not necessarily the servers themselves. So if you go back in time each time we've done like a one-time allocation then the these pieces of hardware do have informed some the mix between spinning disc and nonvolatile RAM they are under support contracts and they end up going to end of life and to support approximately at year seven. So when we start reaching that point we can no longer get emergency repair services. we have to look at an alternative platform and again so the cost of an extended support contract in comparison to doing a replacement which also not just covers the replacement of disc but we also see an ex extreme growth curve and how much disc we need. So we try to cover that at around the six to seven year mark. We are now at seven seven and a half years. So we were able to extend it a little bit but we are at that spot where we need to replace the disc.

So that's helpful. My question was what percentage of our of of that capacity is being replaced by a 410 complete replacement or Yeah, it's it's 100% 100%. Correct. Thank you. And be careful with that. There are some systems that have localized discounts for themselves. So this is the the primary storage platform. Yeah. Uh related question I had was on the on your light item that said forget the exact wording. It was like website hosting and other digital services. I was just curious what those other digital services were as part of theund and something thousand 124,000. I can take this as if you like. Yes, please.

So the the council was part of this project where we didn't RP for a digital platform which is the old website was not EDA compliant. It also did not have any online services uh that would let people interact directly with us. We also had a desire by the council to add a mobile app which the mobile app is included here. Also, if any of you see QuickFix, which is 311's report and issue type service, that's included in that platform. We went with product called Civic Plus, which puts it all into that one platform. And so what we did is we had some one-time funding that carried us through for the first portion of it. So now that spot will be ongoing funding to continue that service. Does that answer that question?

Yeah. Is is 124 an annual? It's like an annual staff service. Yes. And this is a good version of this is 100% clouded and that would continue. Correct. It would continue. It's an online. Thank you. All right. Any other questions? Thank you so much. All right. Next, we have a the 2027 budget for public works. Let's see. Presented by Jay Mcnite, the public works administration division director. We're not. He's coming.

Oh, thanks for this opportunity. We're uh going to go through the public works budgets. I have it organized by division of our department. Uh we'll start with water and wastewater which is our water resources division. The um the budget's broken down here for each fund. Uh the water fund is $21 million of revenue broken out by these four se uh three sections and the CIP and the wastewater as well at $28 million with two operating sections and uh CIP expenditures there. Um I I wanted to note that the the water admin and the wastewater reclamation budgets also include um debt service payments. So it might might not compare with some of the other operating funds where it's not just the cost of the employees and their um their supplies, it's those additional expenses. So in water resources in FY26, the current year, we had asked for an increase for the new sewer treatment plant coming online and be online for 12 months. And uh so we're current through going through that now and it looks like we've we budgeted sufficiently. We're still um learning uh as we go about, you know, seasonality and things like that of the of the treatment plant. Um but looks like we we budgeted sufficiently with that request. We're not asking for additional money there. Reclamation in 27. Uh in 27 in these two divisions or these two funds, water fund, uh we're asking

for drinking water plant staff and operating budget. So, we have our drinking water plant that is anticipated to be finished uh December or January. And so, we're uh requesting two positions to be added in July to to be there as the plant gets finished, as um installers are there putting in the equipment, learning from them to make sure we know how it runs, uh being prepared for when it comes online, and then two others or three others in January once the plant comes online. Um is this the one on freedom? Yes. Okay.

Yes. So it's going up very fast. Um it's getting enclosed and um we're excited about it progress. We're um just anticipating now in the 27 budget to start staffing it and running running the plant. Uh in distribution we're requesting an increase to the overtime budget based on historical use. You know that's overtime budget is used on um break response and you know on call for um for any calls that we get about the water system on on off hours and the wastewater fund. We're requesting a full-time wastewater collections operator. We feel like with an additional person we can do a better job of um maintaining the sewer system, the sewer collection system, the pipes and the manholes. Um, we would anticipate an additional person being able to focus more on repairs uh of that equipment or of that infrastructure and um continuing the other work we do to keep the pipes flowing and uh respond to any backups and also a similar collections overtime budget uh request based on historical actuals. As far as fee changes in water resources in the water fund, um I've circled here the option three that was selected by the council in uh June of last year, which um anticipates a 6% rate increase in FY27 in the current calendar year. We had some questions that we responded to about um how that would be applied to the council. it would be um done to each component of the rate resulting in a 6% revenue increase overall. And um we had a question also about how

how those tiers have people have responded to those tiers so far and uh we don't have a lot of that information yet because the the uh tiers went into effect in September. So we're we'll we'll learn more about that as we go through the um through the summer months coming up. counselor bonded. Jimmy, do we have like a hard dollar figure on which how much that's going to raise for each one of the tiers? Yeah. Do we have a picture of the rates? Like tier one's going to be $5. Tier two is going to be $10. Tier three is going to be $15. Do we have I have that but not in the slides. Can you send that to us? I can. Thank you.

You want to know what the dollar amount of each tier? We want to know exactly what's charged what this six% after. Yes, I have that.

So, in the waist in the water fund, there's no other um fees that we're anticipating changing in wastewater. We are looking to add a um two fees related to sewage that gets dropped off of the plant by waste haulers, people who drive the trucks that um that clean out subject systems typically. and um making sure that we're recovering the costs of our employees being there after hours or when there's excessive um debris in the in the sewage. I'm trying to find a word a different word than sewage, but I'm not coming. It's okay. We want stomachs here.

Um and then here's a list of our water uh some of our key accomplishments this year. I'm not going to go through each one and but um happy to answer any questions if if you've had a chance to see these. Uh here's a wastewater fund. So, our next division is public services, which includes the streets operating budget, which is u $3 million operating budget, not revenue generating. Uh storm water fund, $6.5 million, which is a storm water fee on the utility bill that funds uh 2.8 million in operations and 3.3 of capital projects. sanitation fund has $7 million of revenue which primarily goes for the operations. It's not a capital intensive operation. Um it's mostly just picking up the cans and operating the compost yard which is a enormous task. I didn't want to downplay that. Um and then the vehicle replacement uh vehicle maintenance fund where our fleet uh technicians and mechanics they uh keep maintain all the city fleet and then the vehicle replacement fund which I'll get into a little bit later where we purchase the vehicles for the city. Do you know what I saw I don't know if this is the right time to ask but something about the vehicles you mentioned that you're just going to was garbage trucks just lease them every year and sell them or something. Can you explain how that's more financially sensible?

Yes. So, what the the fire truck? Well, it No, it's it's sanitation. Okay. Warren, do you want to fire? It's probably have better to have an expert explain that and the sanitation maintenance cost that we're trying to avoid.

So, there is a tremendous amount. a dollar figure, but there is a tremendous amount of labor um and cost of parts that go into sanitation trucks to keep them running. Um they are vehicles that are we call them torture tested. They are full throttle break, full throttle break about 1,500 times a day and they get rattled and just destroyed. um they require a great deal of maintenance um and repair by replacing them on a regular basis every 12 months. We are introducing a new vehicle into the fleet that does not have as many cycles on it and it will not have as many breakdowns. Um so I know it sounds crazy to say, "Hey, we're going to buy a brand new truck every year." Um, but realistically, if you look at the maintenance and repair cost to what it would be to be able to cycle one out, um, there's quite a bit difference. And I apologize, I'm not prepared to tell you that exact number. I didn't find that information. I'm sorry.

And so, we just sell one vehicle every year, too. Is that the idea? Yes. Yes. How many of the sanitation trucks do we have in the fleet? Um, as far as res residential garbage cans, I believe top we have three uh vehicles or rolloff containers. We have uh two front loads. Um, and then as far as res residential cans, I believe we have 16, but again, I would have to double check that. Those 16 would do the blue, green, and black pins. Correct. Okay. Yes. And those are historically the vehicles we've had the most problems. But

uh yes, that is that is correct. I mean, every vehicle has has it problems. However, uh we do spend the vast majority of our our labor inside the shop working and keeping these on the road and keeping them. So, you're not technically just using them a year. You're saying every year you're replacing one, which means it's like every 16 years or 20 years. So what we're doing is is you purchase a new vehicle, that vehicle a year later, they'll buy it back. They'll buy it back. They'll buy it back at 85 to 90% of that value. Okay?

They're a very still a very high commodity item. So there's a lot of used market out there. So we can get a lot of it back. So you're only paying that small difference between the new and what you get that buyback at. And that's less than we pay. That is that cost that cost difference is substantially less than what we pay on an ongoing maintenance because typically we'll replace a a san truck sanitation truck one truck every year or two every year through that whole 16 and that becomes because then we're now running trucks that are seven eight n those older trucks are just constantly so now are we running them all one year then

that's what eventually we're just doing we're that out. So eventually all the we'll have basically new trucks coming in every year and then we just pay that cost difference between new and then the buyback. Okay. Cool. Garbage trucks. Very cool. Thank you. my text.

As far as supplemental requests, um, in in streets, we're requesting two full-time streets maintenance workers to do some work that is currently being done by contractors that we feel we can do more efficiently inhouse. And by having these additional employees when they're not working on the concrete removal and trans trans trench patching, they will be able to be used for the other services that streets provide such as um snow plowing in the winter um allowing us to improve that response. So those would be fund by funded by existing funds um that would just be moved to positions instead of paying for the outside work. And storm water requesting a increase to the part-time budget by $7,000 again based on historical usage and the fleet fund. Uh we've we've talked with fire about um the impact to the general fund as well as uh the fleet fund for an emergency vehicle technician additional emergency vehicle technician which we're continuing to work with uh with them and with the administration to to talk through alternatives and and impacts potential impacts of that. In sanitation, we're asking for a full-time scale house attendant position, which would be a full-time person at the compost yard, which would enable us to have it open five days a week instead of two, and increase um the availability of other services such as uh another recycling drop off and potentially glass drop off. And this would be funded by um a change to the uh what's we refer to as the rooftop fee, which is a dollar per uh per account. We're looking to change that to be $1 per uh residential household. And so right now we have some accounts that are like

for an HOA where we have 200 garbage cans. It's only one account. They get charged $1. where a single family home is also only get is also getting charged a dollar. We want to make sure that that's being distributed appropriately. I have a quick question. Yes. Um going back to the supplemental request on the compost yard. Yes. So on the bit about recycling, it mentioned the possibility of moving the recycling roll off from over by the fire station so we wouldn't have it there anymore. It's much more convenient to get to that in the middle of the city than it is to go down to the transfer yard or something. Can we keep both?

I think we're looking at alternatives for uh for locations. So far, yes, you're going to keep it. Okay. All right. We're we're looking at different things for recycling. It's just so challenging because anywhere we set it, the the amount of over time, we just get a lot of illegal dumping and and it becomes a challenge. So, we're trying to set them in places that are strategic that they can have some kind of fire. May we're going to try it potentially to see if you set it next to a fire station, maybe that will discourage people from Do we get illegal dumping with the glass recycling?

Not there because it's but often times we do. somebody who sits there, I'll throw some tires there or you just sit by there and it's incredible like the what people they do. So yeah, that's the challenge we try to balance. So but right now we're trying to keep it and then try to expand it but still resolve that issue. Okay, I will say that the glass recycling is one of my favorite errands to do. Such a great stress reliever to go and like throw the glass right now. I will stay. Okay. And

but if the property sells and gets redeveloped, then we got to rethink what we want to do with that. So there may be opportunity to incorporate it with the development. We're starting to look at maybe some standards on there. Um and incorporating those in our development standards for recycling as part of the belt process. You know, commercial spaces that do include a space. We'll probably be coming back to council for those um code changes or possibility to look at that too. It's still commercial businesses. They need to put recycling facilities on there. Okay. On their property. So, great. Thank you.

Um I think the last item was the sanitation overtime budget which um was included in supplemental with with the other overtimes based on um historical usage. Um, and then here's a description of the fee that I tried to explain. Um, that would help us fund the the position of the composter. Just out of curiosity, why didn't we do this six years ago or last year or year before? I mean, why are we doing it? This seems like such a no-brainer. I'm just wondering.

Good question, Shane. I think over time when this was first implemented in 2011, it was hurricane. And so the thought process is we would be capturing all the residential houses, but over since that time, every account that was set up, you would think that would be tied to a residential home or residential unit. What we found is it wasn't.

So you have all these HOAs, you come in and they have 150 houses. They have one account, which is the HOA account. And so you're only charging one day one. And so over time that has just like we've realized what it was attended was for all residential units. So what we're going to do is we're going to fix that. Instead of an account it'll be tied to like for instance the UTF it'll be tied to the power meter. That way it'll capture all those HOAs all that missing. Yeah. Well, bravo. Love it. Councelor Bogdan. I know it's just a dollar. Is it dollar a month? A dollar? Yes.

Okay. But for me, I don't have a green waste can. I don't get mulch from the composting station. So, explain to me why someone like me would be charged a dollar, $30 a year for a service I don't even use. And it's not just the composting. It's how for some of it's recycling. We have all these additional costs that we don't tie to any specific

that I don't even have recycling. that can we also it's also helped our um spring and fall cleanup our spring and fall cleanup has gotten massive and that is a benefit for the entire community. Um we we ask people to use that the the spring and fall cleanup. Um there we're not sure how to recapture that. This is the one way to to do it. Um that's one of the big ones. We just keep expanding all these. Other one is my hometown. If you know my hometown, they go help you know the various communities and they bring those things in. That has been a very successful um implementation of you know helping communities that has just got so big and we have all the costs associated. This has helped with that cost. Do you need to clean up Becky? Well, I I have I have a vehicle that I can do that, but I mean, I can imagine people coming to me and saying, "I don't even have a truck, so I can't even use the spring cleanup." And so now I'm paying for other people to clean up when I can't even clean up. So, I'm just trying to figure out how do I explain this to a resident of why they're paying $30 a year.

So, is there do good dudes? You've been paying this for six years because you're not an HOA. So everybody, the only thing we're doing now is bringing it on the people that haven't been paid. So this won't affect you or any of your neighbors. Right. This this is bringing it to the forefront. Right. So make them aware of it. Exactly. And so even me, I didn't even realize I was paying a dollar a month for for a composting. So anyway, yeah. So how do I explain this to people? But but again, not everybody uses every program of the city, but you have the ability to dump all your green waste there for free. You're have the ability to use the glass.

Do we allow them to do that for free? I thought it was a $5 charge to come in and dump. No, just to get rid of your green waste. Green. So just residents, we don't allow commercial. And so those are some benefits that you have whether you take advantage of them or not. So I don't know how to tell you. want you to take that. What What is the expected incremental revenue increase from this change? So, right now, I think we're about a little over 200,000 right now. There's about 19,000 accounts that are just and I think once we switch that, we'll jump up to like 36,000 accounts. So, kind of multiply that out, it's a little over 200,000. pays for that person

and that will pay for the person and all those other facilities in those operations. The other thing I would mention is that by having the compost yard, it allows us to divert a lot of the that waste that would typically just be in the landfill um and and be put the compost yard instead, which I think benefits everyone. So, I don't know if that helps, but such a good idea. I've got a a quick question about the different overtime requests or budgets.

So, I'm I really appreciate that you had the actual numbers for the past few years so that we could see how what had been requested was not matching what we were actually spending. That was really really useful. Um, and it seems like even for like the distribution over time, it was astonishingly high in 25. like why was it double anticipated cost?

2025 we had the lead copper rule where we had to get out and verify water services throughout the community. So we were going out looking at a major percentage of all of our water to to find out if they're galvanized um for copper or poly. So some of that overtime was for the service inventory. A lot of it was still for brakes. Um but that that number did go over because of the lead copper. That's why I wanted to show multiple years. So um those aberrations could be discounted and show the overall trend regardless of those one time.

And on sanitation like it it was already fairly high 148 and we're asking 200. Does it make sense to have that much in overtime budget or would it make more sense to hire more people so that you're not doing overtime?

I think eventually it'll get there. Right now it still makes we we did look at that. It still makes sense to do the overtime. A lot of the overtime is all these extra things that we keep adding on to help with the community, you know, spring cleanups, those kind of things. And right now it still makes sense to do that in overtime than to actually get another person. We are getting another person. One a lot of that overtime two is up at our compost yard just because we have one individual that takes that and so you're you're the hours that it is opening like during the week plus the weekend. You kind of need two people or else that person continues to get additional overtime. This person will actually help somewhat reduce a lot some time.

Okay. Thank you, Council Bogdan. Speaking of overtime, do we have the Buckley Jaw figures in yet? Yes. Can you send those to us? Yes. Thank you. Congrats.

All right. Again, key key accomplishments in each of the sections. street storm water sanitation and fleet. You know, it goes into some of the uh details about how many cans we collect, how many pieces of equipment we maintain. Um, as far as the fleet replacement, this uh represents the uh the original proposal of the fleet advisory committee, which includes uh representatives from each of the general fund departments. These are the general fund vehicles that were initially identified for replacement in the coming year. We're going to continue to meet with them and um revise that number and and uh you'll see the the end result of that when we get to the proposed when the budget is proposed. But just an example of the types of equipment that um the uh fleet division maintains and works to replace engineering. Our uh last division is 15 the entire fleet of patrol cars. No, I think there's uh

122 thought they were shared.

So, engineering uh again a general fund division. Um there are some revenues associated with this uh division, but I I didn't put them on here. Uh $2.5 million operating budget and accomplishments. Um, and then at the bottom we've got a supplemental request for a full-time engineering technician. We're we're proposing to use existing funding for one engineer to fund two technicians. So, we don't need additional budget. We just need an additional full-time equivalent approved in the budget. And that might be my last one. Any other questions?

Council Whitlock. Um, I was luckily not part of the water rate discussion last year. Um, but I do Could you go back to that slide? I just have some questions if I may ask them. We can play videos. They got pretty hairy. I know. So, I just want to make sure I'm understanding this. This is the incremental increase every single year as a schedule. Yes. Yes. So, we're going to well over double the cost of water over the next Yeah. I have seriously issues with this. Am I wrong? Am I wrong about that? That's right. That's what I have to say. Okay. Yeah. It's to pay for the pipe. That's why we're so happy.

That's what they say. Do you believe that we this increase is needed? It's like a paramount need for infrastructure. Yes, we we have pipe that is corroding underground and leaking and and our crews are out every weekend repairing inlines. Um and based on the valuation of our water system, we feel like there's a minimum level of funding to keep our water system operating the way it is, providing the greatest water quality in the state. we do have the greatest luck

and um and so that that increase is based on keeping that funding level to where we can maintain our system and replace our old infrastructure. So I I guess what I so what after this schedule is done what is our margin what are our margins become on like the incremental gallon I'll I'll have to prepare that and give it to you because it is I mean I understand the logic but it is interesting to like essentially we're dramatically increasing our our gross margins on our water to cover a bunch of fixed asset costs. That's essentially the strategy what we're doing, right? Beautiful. Okay. And a lot of cities have gone to bonding instead.

Yeah. And then and then I'm just wondering like have we done exper like because I think again this is the economist in me but like there's a profit maximizing rate of of water that sort of and again I know there's conservation but if you're just so there's different lenses you can look at this with but if you're just thinking about it there's some price elasticity associated with water. as rates go up, I conserve, I use less. And so, like, how confident are we we're not going beyond the profit maximizing rate. Like, I've done a ton of these studies, but you you've you know, you fidget with pricing and then you see con you see uh volume of consumption change and sometimes you think more price equals more profit, but actually oftentimes you go past that point at which the marginal cost is high where you actually bring down your profit because people are just like this is too expensive.

So, I'm just wondering like how confident we are in some of these things. Yeah. Yeah. So, we do have multiple components of the rate. There's the base rate that is done regardless of the usage and then when our and that's just like a flat service rate being connected to the water. Correct. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then and so our consultant that um provided the rate proposal uh factored in the I can't remember the percentage of the elasticity of of demand for water with the as the price went up and and calculated that into the forecast so that as the as the consumption went down that we would still reach the certain revenue thresholds we're seeking. And that was just based on assumptions from other cities or just industry industry standards

like an industry standard assumption. We didn't run any experiments to see how Provo reacts to it. No. And it's it's really hard to to to pinpoint because the consumption changes because of so many reasons as the price. But then we'll get but we will start to get some year-over-year data of the two like of the two cohorts before and after where we can start to see if that assumption was true or not in the modeling. Yes. Okay. Now, prior to this increase, we were people were using what was it like a million less in water and our revenue had gone down because of

Yes. But again, we've had um you know, some years where it was really dry, some years when it was really wet. It's it's really hard to pinpoint. It's the price that's changing, the usage, you know, just the overall sentiment about cons conservation. I'm sorry we're getting so in the weeds here, but do we do we have like any regression modeling that tries to like account for these various factors year-over-year because we could we could we could like essentially tag every single variable you just said across the last 30 years and try to come up with have we ever done any work like that? That I don't think so. Okay. Anyway, the reason why I ask it's funny you said that because I was talking to one of my professors from BYU uh at Econ. He's like, "We'd love to do some regression, you know, work for the city and if you have any project ideas, so maybe this is a good one."

Good. Citizens have been conserving really well year after year. Just keeps going down.

Yeah. And I expect that this year with our our water year, people will probably be inclined to conserve on their own even without us asking them to just because we didn't have a winter. on a slightly different topic. I have a question about um ah the water resources and our staffing levels on that. So that was a really interesting thing to read that EPA recommended that we should have 14 people and we have seven full-time and two part-time. Um you know so we're we're pretty close more or less to what ORM's doing, but we're far below those other three cities that are the comparables that were listed. So, how is it that we are able to get away with fewer employees right now? Like, and can we sustainably keep doing that or is this something where we're borrowing time?

I think we're borrowing time. We we do have the best employees out there that are working hard. But but yeah, this this the system the wastewater system continues to grow and we add more miles of pipe and we have the same staffing levels or maybe even under what we've had in the past trying to maintain that increasing pipeline. Um we've also got new technologies where we can do a lot of the services that we have hired down in the past. Uh, and by doing those in house, we're saving money, but using more of our employees time. Yes.

Yeah. It was just because we've we've often gotten reports from police that we are not meeting, you know, some sort of industry standard for the number of officers for our population size. So, it was really surprising to me to see that we're in a similar situation with water. So, and specifically on wastewater. On the waste water. Yeah. Oh, for fun. Okay, any other questions? I know I would love to see more charts for the water, which I know does not excite anybody. Maybe Jeeoff, but

I would love to see our conservation, the different differences. I want to somehow get it. I want to understand better our use per acre. That's something that's still my my issue with this whole thing. I think we are so disproportionately we're not being fair per size of people's land or whatever. But um yeah, so I don't know what I don't even know what to ask for, but I want to understand exactly how it's going up, the pricing, our conservation, how that's been going and how our conservation's been affecting our revenue. Um yeah.

Well, and unfortunately, we had very little data. Well, we still haven't the last 10 years since. Yeah, but we but we there's years where we increased every year 4%. Right. Right. Five. I want to compare those years to what we're soon as it was six and eight. And and the hard part like Jimmy was mentioning those years where we were increasing four or 5% every year. It was also in the tele volunteer drought and there was constant messaging

everywhere you looked TV, radio, newspaper of conserve, conserve, we have new water and so it it you know maybe with the help of of BYU or some other uh some of our consultants we can look at that and how that plays into uh what's what's been happening. But we have we have seen a decrease in overall water use whether that's our rates going up or the messaging for I think it's there's absolutely a mindset of conservation in pro without a doubt. Yeah. There's an ethos change like you knock doors and it's undeniable and it's in every neighborhood.

So okay thanks Jimmy. Nothing else. Do you want to bring something back this presentation or did you are we just getting I think we can do it memos and emails. We want memo. Thanks Gordon. All right. Can I just like one more thing as we're like yeah specify specific the I can I can write an email but the other thing that

again I apologize. because I think I was in the heat of the campaign, wasn't following this super closely. But like the other thing that I'm just curious about I think I understand the logic of the tiers, but I'm I'm curious why we decided to go and tier based on lot size as opposed to just a consumption based tier that I'd just love to hear like the rationale behind that in more detail and like your all's thoughts would be really helpful. We didn't do it based on lot size. We did we did it by meter size. We did meter sorry meter size instead of just pure consumption. Yes, they vary by Yes, we we can provide that. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes. Yes.

Uh yeah. Can you explain that? Just my understanding is based on the the size of the pipe effectively. There's two different scales based on consumption based on the pay not just like the total amount of water used. It is based on total amount of water use but it's a it's a hybrid for each for the different Can you help me out here? We can explain it. Okay. I'll just Yeah, just explain to me. Get me caught up. Thank you. All right, we're going to take a five minute break. We're still totally running way behind, but no, we are not caught up. We're half an hour behind. I'm sorry. So, you have five minutes. Pardon?

Our next presentation's at 3. 3 2 how public works very has to do with how big your property. Yeah. Yeah. So it gives somewhat of a break because someone can be conserving awesomely but they have bigger they have orchards. If you've got a bigger pipe you've got

When are we We can start recording. Are we up again? Countdown like less than a minute. Less than a minute. I can work with that. Still not time yet. Almost. Long. One minute.

Okay. Now presentation regarding the 2027 budget of development services.

Thank you. I really like really like working with Gordon Hayden public works because they always make me look good compared to their budget. My budget is small and simple. Hopefully we'll get help get you back on track as far as your time. So over the past five years, development services has eliminated three positions to help balance the city's budget. Two of those positions were at the management level. You'll see in this presentation that we're proposing eliminating another position in order to fund creating a more needed position. There was no mid-year budget adjustment that came to you. The budget adjustments we're going to ask for the coming year are these things here. Parking enforcement needs two license plate readers. One is to update an existing one and one is a new one. Sandy can talk to you in more detail if you'd like, but these LPRs are not what the police talked to you about a couple weeks ago. They do not access the all the private information, personal information that the police department has access to. So, that's not really an issue with these LPRs. This uh 600,000 from development services from uh uh RDA is going to repay public works for the fill that's been put at the site down on Lake View Parkway in the I-15. There's been a lean put on that property that would repay this money um when the property sells.

Wait, I'm sorry. Can you explain that again? This is a $600,000 transfer from RDA funds to public works to reimburse public works for the trucking costs of moving Phil onto the site at Lake View Parkway in the I-15, like the Walmart land. Yes. Oh, is this part Okay. Is this part of the 1 million that we put towards a grocery store?

Um, this is part of the entire package. This there's 1 million of COVID money that's separate from this. This is in addition to that that helps buy down the ask from the city on the property. Whoever develops that property in the future, whether it's Walmart or somebody else, they have to lift the property. It's of value to them. So, they've signed a lean to guarantee the city. So, we are getting that money back. we're actually getting the value of the fill which is more like 900,000. Okay. And the 900 will go back into the RDA. Okay. For some reason I understood that um we were doing the million for a grocery store towards that and they didn't have to pay it back. So that's the that's the COVID money. That's the

But it's not going towards the fil dirt. No. So what's what's the CO money doing right now? Is it just sitting there?

Yes, that's right. It hasn't been spent. Uh the last one is for the building division. Um a a bottleneck we have in our department in the building division is the plan review. We have one plan one person who does plan reviews, plan checks. Um the $17,000 is for an AI um program to help us with plan review. Okay. I would like to eventually hire a full-time another full-time plan reviewer, but this is the first step towards solving that problem in a much more economical way than paying for another employee. Okay? And this may end up solving our problem completely. We we'll have to see. This is for a one-year contract to test this out and see how it works. Honda has already done quite a bit of testing with this, so we have a high level of confidence with it. Also, we feel like we need a new field inspector. The field inspectors have been spread pretty thin and it's not really sustainable. We're kind of sticking our necks out as far as that goes. So, I'm going to propose shifting some things around to be able to fund that.

Well, but you're paying for it with an open planner position, right? And you think you're not going to miss that? That open planner position has been open for quite some time. We haven't filled it. I mean, I've got two planner positions. One I just filled. New plan, new planner just started yesterday. Planner Nancy Robinson just resigned a week ago. So I'll be filling her spot, but this is the third position that we have had unfilled in the department for a couple years. Okay. Council Bogdan. Okay. So we keep on rotating through planners. Why? Because Aaron is so hard to work for.

So if we replace Aaron, then everything's going to be great. Um, yeah, it was actually a surprise that we lost Nancy. She got offered a better job at BYU where she was before she came here. Um, so that was a surprise to us. Um, but I think uh, and the planet before that we lost simply because her husband graduated and took a job in Montana. So I don't think it's really a management issue. I think it's just or a pay issue or you know we've worked hard to make our pay compatible and uh competitive and HR has been very good at working with us on that. You just think it's just a

timing. Yeah. Blue. Yeah. I don't expect it to continue. Erin, lighten up. Now the state has things in place where we have to do an inspection so many days and that right? Yes. Um, are we we're still meeting those goals that finish? We're still meeting those goals now, but still plan review is a backlog. And so if we can get rather than taking 21 days to get an industrial plan approved, it would be nice to be able to do that in 14 or seven. Oh, for sure. That's what we're talking about. Like seven.

Yeah. The areas that we're not quite covering costs are the parking permit areas. We're getting better, but we're still not full recovery. Then RDL's are still short because we're not allowed to raise this fee enough to cover inspections. The state law won't allow us to cover inspections in an RDL. But we're still working on getting that redone still. Yes, that's still coming to you.

Yep. Just quickly, how much would we need to charge on the parking permit fees in order to get full cost recovery? Because we do have a lot of people reaching out that are just appalled that we've gone from $15 to a hundred per year. And so, if if we could reiterate how much the city is still subsidizing it, that might be helpful.

Need to talk in the background. Flip it up. Turn it on. When I calculated University Garden, um, and if we ever decided to do something on Spike Canyon, it came to approximately $297 a year per res permit. Wow. That's up 15, right? That's up from 15. That's up from 15. And so the hundred um we started like you guys know with Carbell after and it it just seemed to be more costing.

Um council what is the um like the patrol or level of service assumption baked into that.

Um depending on the size university is so much bigger. Um I figure we figure about 20 to 25% um for university garden. We have difficulty time uh difficulty hitting the entire area in one night. So we kind of uh alter that a little bit. Site Canyon I figured about two or 3%. But again, it's still all of that those costs that we gave. It's it's very

what what I'm more asking is how often are we patroll or like uh patrolling or checking a a given house or a given place?

Like I said, University Garden, we cannot get through the entire permanent area in one single night. So hopefully we're checking we're checking our residents once every three or four times a week, but we're trying to alter it. Um because of with the Carterville University garden and we got the parking management on site canyon and I'm not trying to be vague. I'm just trying to kind of explain everything plus all of the other parking management that we do um and the calls that we're taking from that dispatch. So on average like once every couple days

it depends on the area like you said 25% so during the week was getting hit about 25% of the time but other areas like 2% yeah or 2% of and so we will actually go down the road you know site can get multiple times on different calls okay but does that answer your question or did that give it a little bit of a better answer I'm sorry yeah I think part of the question is is it necessary really to patrol those every single night in order to get compliance like do we need to spend that much employee time in order to fulfill the requirements of the program? Yes.

Okay. And it goes back right now. It all factors into that or down to groups but yes especially in the first city garden area and Carver Bell. Absolutely. Good. Thank you.

So, this is my proposal to pay for the things that we've asked for. Um or these would be reoccurring reoccurring costs rather. Um, we believe we can pay this out of the increased plan check fee and we can pay for this out of the uh trade in the planner position. Um, as we understand very well, the zoning enforcement has been a top priority for the council and um, the blitzes have been very successful. Uh, but they're certainly increasing case load. So, if we continue with those blitzes on a regular basis, we may be back in another year or so asking for a another zoning enforcement person to keep up with the increased case load that those could cause. Uh performance measures. Um the disparity in these numbers are that at this point we were counting zoning verification applications as planning applications and they probably shouldn't have. So we stopped counting them here. Um if you were to throw this back in, you'd probably be looking at another 50 or 75 added to that number. Um but that's a big reason for the disparity there. just some of the accomplishments of the departments. One thing I would like to point out in particular are the written warnings that parking gets. I know there's a lot of discussion about parking and the job they do. I feel like Sandy has does a really good job balancing giving warnings and educating people on what they can and cannot do with writing citations.

And with the potential revenue, do we take those things to collections or how? Yes. Yep. and we have seen an increase in what we've been able to collect and so that's helping to fund some of the things we've talked about other key accomplishments in planning and in CBG and home the the increase in the down payment assistance has been huge that's a big jump in that number

yeah down payment assistance gone to 60,000. So, yeah. And then, um, Melissa, get ready because you're up. Get ready cuz you're up.

Bill, so you're sure and that you don't need any more employees? Um, I feel like it's a miracle you've asked for anything.

Yeah. So, Um, I try to be very careful in making sure that everybody's busy 40 hours a week but not strained. I'm want to make sure that our resources are all being used fully before I ask for more people because of what a large ongoing expense that is to the city. So, I feel like what we're doing right now is manageable, but I need the field inspector and I need help with plan review. If the things I propose solve our problems will be good. If not, then I'll be back and I'll probably have to ask for more help on the building side, building division.

The thing we're sacrificing in planning, just so you know, uh the reduction in planning staff has affected long range planning. We're not doing the neighborhood plans the way we used to. Now, we have been sidetracked with station area plans and some other long-range projects like writing the new zoning ordinance, but we're not getting the neighborhood plans done, the long-range projects. That's what's been sacrificed and losing positions. But you'll come to us before the next budget season if something is a problem. Yes. As long as Scott lets me.

Okay. Um my budget stuff's pretty simple. Um um we have increased our um the amount of down payment assistance that we've given in the past year which is really um it's really great. We did a few minor changes or to the programs that has been beneficial um and we're doing a really good job of marketing um the program. Um let's see. Um this is just what we've done so far in 2026. The bottom the bottom part um 10 down payment assistance loans just in the first quarter. Um we've um completed our the well I've completed my first project area plan. Yay. Um working on policies and procedures and and the HTRZ around the front runner station. Is that it?

That's it. That's it. And do you have any questions regarding RDA or our CDBG and home? um items. Those are separate from the general fund. I I I think that's why Bill makes me do it by myself because uh Okay, thank you. Any questions for Melissa? No. Thanks, Melissa. Thanks. All right, that it you have helped us a lot. We're back on schedule. We're ahead of schedule.

Wow. Nailed it up. All right. Yeah. Three. Oh, no. I did my math wrong. Thank you. We're we're 15 minutes improved. Yes, we we got 50 minutes back. Okay. Next, a resolution approving the appropriation of 96,547 to pay for three new firefighters and their equipment between May and June for the fiscal year ending June 30th, 2026. And um Chief Hedman, just make sure you explain why this is coming to us now before the budget. Okay. Thanks.

Thank you. Uh appreciate you giving me a few minutes to talk about uh why we need to add three firefighters. Um I'll start off with why um why we're we're doing this now. Um there's the the plan ongoing starting in in fiscal year 27 is to fund them off of our um overtime account. So, we're going to reduce that by a little over $300,000 to pay for the full-time firefighters for the next year. The reason there's uh quite a few reasons we'd like to bring them in early. Um, but a big one is that it's well, let me just go through this. I'll kind of It's not going

I only have stuff. Oh, okay. All right. Well, then I'll do it without a presentation. Sorry about that. Um that's the right one. It is. Okay. So um it So you didn't get one in your packet either a presentation. Did you get this?

No. Okay. I'll be even more detailed because I thought I I thought there was three documents submitted. So that's my mistake. Um, so the the appropriation is for $60,000 for the three salaries for two months and then a $39,000 for equipment which gets them personal protective equipment as well as radios and and some other um equipment, uniforms and stuff they need to to perform. Um the fire department wi when we staff the the fire department every day we allow five people off. So that allows us to keep a minimum level of staffing at every fire station. And as soon as we have a six person off for any reason that requires us to call back an overtime person, which last year happened 330 out of 365 days. So the the offset of the savings for overtime easily pays for the position. The reason it's not paying for it this current why we can't save it in this current budget year is that for the first two months of hiring a new employee, they're not on shift. They're um they're in training. So they're not helping us in that helping us reduce our overtime budget for that that two months of training. Um we we we hire there's one of the reasons that we wanted to hire now is we we are down two employees. We have a third one that's about to retire. So we need three. Um and then we we want to hire the additional three so we can run one camp in May. Get them all trained up and then they're they're all on shift starting in

July. uh which helps for a number of reasons. It helps us provide a better training opportunity for the new employees by having um more people in training. We're able to function more like a real fire department in training. So when we when we go to a fire, we don't just go with one station, we go with multiple stations. So it allows us to have two companies to do training together and it makes it a whole lot more realistic. Um the one of the other big reasons we would like to hire earlier is we started interviewing for the three positions we know about uh after we did a test in February and by the time we were making offers to them two weeks ago we had already two of them had already taken jobs in other fire departments. So the the timing is important to get the best talent in in Provo. So, we we we feel like it's to our benefit to hire. We we have a great candidate pool that's at least five or six deep. Um we we haven't interviewed if we get approve of an appropriation for the additional three, we'll interview three more candidates, uh which is a civil service requirement that we test. We interview 10 for each position. So, for the first three, we we interview 12, if that makes sense. Um let's see the by doing just one camp also saves us a lot of overtime at cost because when we run a camp we have some people we have a training division that does a portion of the training but we have to bring in experts in their field to train them in EMS or whether it's some kind of technical rescue or different disciplines in the department so we bring in the right people to teach them through the through the training program

in addition to the people that are there every day. Um, sorry, I was counting on a slide. Well, I think that's what we want to get across because we talked about this in leadership, but that it is going to save money in the long run and the department needs it ASAP and provide training, save money, save overtime. So covering this for two months before the your budget picks it up. Yeah, it will help us a lot to to get the people in the the pipeline. So they're actually benefiting us starting right in July, which is our busiest time of year.

Um we already have firefighters in Nebraska fighting wildland fires. They're going to be out all season long. I I expect as dry as everything is. So Well, are there any other questions for Chief Headmond about this? Okay, I think we're great. Okay, chief. Thanks, Chief. Thank you.

All right. Next, a resolution to place 1.92 acre parcel of ground located approximately 1051 East Birch Lane on the surplus property list. This will be presented by Terara Riddle. Good afternoon. I have a little disclaimer. I love spring in Utah, but it does not love me. So, I'm having a little asthma issue. So, if I'm a little breathy, it's not cuz I'm super excited. Um, I've received a couple of comments about this item. So, please forgive me for going away from some of the information that I provided to you in your packet. I thought it might be helpful to give you some historical information that was not included because I didn't realize that it would be some of the questions that were coming up. So, I think this may be beneficial as we go with the discussion. So, I'm going to start way back when in 1941 um BYU acquired some property that's adjacent to the now Kuanas Park. This will be important as I describe kind of what's happened. So, um, this is the property here where this building is located. Um, it's known as the Oakidge Ele Oakidge School. Um, it sits on BYU property. Um, in 1948 is when Provo City acquired the property that is now known as Kuanas Park. So 30 years after we acquired the park property, we entered into an lease agreement with the school district for the 2 acres that we're talking about today. Um that lease agreement was

basically a 50-year lease agreement. So it won't be expiring for two more years. And the lease agreement was to be used for parking and a playground for the Oakidge school. The Oakidge school was a school specific for children in the Provo School District and later the Nebo School District, children with disabilities, so special need children. So, um, the contract that we had was they would pay a dollar a year, which they paid in advance. They paid the full $50 upfront. Um, so it was supposed to be used for public purposes in connection with the school. Um, so that included both the playground and the parking and that the school district would pay for all of that equipment and the improvements for the parking lot. So they built everything all everything that sits there now is what the school district constructed. The deal was once the the lease agreement was either broken or it expired, all of those improvements then became the ownership of Provo City. So in 1979, BYU entered into an agreement with the school district for the construction of the school. So the school is owned by the school district, but the property is owned by BYU. So fast forward to 2004, there was an amendment to the agreement with BYU between BYU and the school district. There were some changes that took place in the state of Utah regarding the education of children with special needs. So it made the Oakridge school basically obsolete. And so the school district stopped using the building for that purpose. Prol City was

never notified of that change in use. So, Wasuch Elementary School and the school district, I don't know how many of the offices and things there in the building were used by each, but it was basically used by the school district for school district purposes. And the playground continued to be used for Wasach Elementary School. Um, it's important to note that when the school district took over this property, they put up signage on the parking lot that it was for was um employees and also for student drop off. This was also in contradiction to our agreement because the agreement was supposed to be that it should have been parking shared between the park and the school. So, um, we fast forward now to 2025. We know that Wasatch Elementary School was purchased by BYU. This also included the building. So, the school district quick claimed all of their ownership over to BYU. So, BYU now owns the land and the building. They assumed, excuse me, I'm going to take a drink. BYU assumed the lease agreement. They were not made aware of the terms of the agreement. So they in good faith have been using the property as the school district was using it, assuming that they had the same rights, not understanding that if it was no longer being used for the school that it would revert back to the city. So when they got ownership, that was about the time that they came to the city and said, "We are making some adjustments to other buildings on campus, specifically the administration building. We're going to need to move some of our employees down to some of these buildings at the Wasuch

Elementary School, also in Oakidge School. So that's going to need us to actually some of the parking and we'd like to incorporate that into our overall plan. So we'd like to purchase the property. So that's where we are today. So inside of the packet, we had information like we typically do. We did a departmental review with all of the city departments asking what impact would it have if we were to surplus these two acres. It's very important to note that if you stand up on this property, you would probably not realize that it's actually owned by the city. We have not had use of it for 50 years. There's not been citizens using the playgrounds because it's secured.

Well, then they're going in. It's fenced. It's gated. So, if they're going in, they're going in through fences that are closed. So, and and I'll be addressing kind of the playground issue here in a second. But yeah, the parking and things they haven't been using

and if they have they I don't know if they've been getting ticketed or whatever. But so it really would not have an impact as far as our planning what the parks department had been planning on you know the Quantis Park future or anything like that. So with the purchase of the Wasach Elementary School from BYU, some of the there's three playgrounds that partially sit well the one playground sits entirely on the parcel that was leased by the school district. There's two other playgrounds, one right here and one right here. when they're, if you look at the property lines, they're built partially on school district, now BYU property, and partially on city property. None of us know exactly why that happened, but the playgrounds have been used by both parties. So, um, about a year ago, the parks department went in and did a they actually hired, um, an inspection of all three playgrounds, and it was determined that all of the equipment in those three playgrounds were rated at poor to very poor, meaning that they're not safe for us to be using. So the proposal is that in 2028 2029 the re um placement of those playgrounds would be done as part of their CIP project and they would be improved down in our current playground area here. Sorry,

I apologize. CIP parks and rec. Yes. And we're talking about even the fenced off one. No, that was not considered. Well, I'm assuming that that would eventually be going away if we sell the property to BYU. So, there are three separate PE playgrounds plus our new our newer playground. And the three separate playgrounds are the ones that are joint on our property and and are in very poor condition that need they need to go away. Okay. Is that clear? That's why they're very they are. So, I just wanted

and our inspection verified that and I guess if we have questions on that, we have representatives from the parks department here. So, um, what's happened at this point is that BYU, as I've mentioned, has made an offer to purchase the property. So in essence, we could surplus the property and receive about $1.37 million which could be put into the CIP fund for the parks department to go towards the replacement of these playgrounds and they would be replaced down in the playground area expanding that playground that we currently have on the park property. Um, I know there was some questions about what BYU's proposed use was. So, we have representatives from BYU here if you have questions specific to that. If there's questions specific to the impact this would have on the parks department or the playground areas, as I mentioned, we've got representatives here from the parks department.

Yes. So Terra, why would parts sign replace equipment that sits partially in Kanas Park on city property and partially on now? Because residents are using these playgrounds. Part of it is the smaller U playground that we have now is rated for, you'll have to help me on this to two to 5y olds. We don't really have equipment for the 5 to 12 year olds. So the new equipment that would be coming in would be replacing the stuff that was used by the elementary school which would be the 5 to 12 year olds. So you said there's two years remaining on the lease. Well, so theoretically the lease should be terminated.

Yeah. Because it's not being used appropriately. So the lease part of this is now out of the picture. And then going way back to 19 where where did city acquire this property? Where the national parks property? No, we acquired it from a gentleman by the name of Willie Rita. Yes, a single gentleman as it said on the deed. So a single gentleman. So here tell us

I know I don't know. I am assuming we purchased it. It may have been um donated. I'm really not sure. There wasn't a lot of information on the deed, but we got fee title from it. A single person. Okay. Councelor Whitlock. Um so just clearing up maybe a couple things that I'd heard. Um so you're saying right now the lease is void. So currently BYU does not have like a right to use the land. Correct. Okay. And there I'd heard that there was like an option for them to extend the lease, but that's not accurate. Correct. No, there hasn't been any discussion about that. Okay. Okay. The original lease, as I said, was written for 50 years years. And there's no

with the option of it renewing for another 25 um automatically unless the city gave notice that we did not want to renew. Got it. Got it. So, there was the original lease, there was that extension on that extension, but that's no longer in effect because the lease was void, right? Is that correct? Yeah. Thank you. Anyone else? Okay. Last for John over there. Do we have a need for multiple five plus playgrounds? I mean, how do we envision this? It would be consolidated to one 5 to 12 year old playground.

So, would it be large like a Lake Hue North Park playground? large. Yes. Because you would think we have three different ones and it's all being utilized. We would have we would have a need for a lot but just not not like a liquid park one, right?

It it'll be sized for the the needs of the neighborhood. We understand that there was an elementary school at this location and there's not no longer an elementary school. So, the demand during the daytime hours is probably considerably less for how these were sized, but we'll make sure it's sized appropriately. And it was intended to be a larger 5 to 12 playground for Christmas. And will the residents be a part of that decision like where it's located at and yes, how much it is. We will hold public all that. And with it being a million dollars, would they also get a replacement of the tennis courts

with the capital improvement plan? Yes, the intent is to replace the three tennis courts and again with public input decide if there's three remaining tennis courts or if there's some big ball court integration into that or not. We'll we'll continue that as we get closer. We probably need to get the tennis people's input on that too. That's going to be a really bad situation for a lot of this. Okay. Thank you, Council Wlock. Uh yes, so just a couple more questions. I I would be curious to hear what uh BYU's planned use of the land would be. Good question.

Right now, we just use it as as overflow parking for the Oakidge parking lot. Right now, we have no plans. We don't have any plans for Wasach or Oakidge that we know of that will even when the ASB is completed. Even ASB when it's completed is we don't envision keeping the school Okay. And what was the what was the um methodology to sort of reach the 1.37 million uh between the two uh appraisal values? So, we typically split the difference, but BYU is actually generous in coming a little bit above what the splitting the difference would be. Okay.

That's normally what we do if we have two appraisals. And have we talked at all about options of maybe extending the lease under more than a dollar a year for like the the needs the immediate needs during the ESB ASB construction. So we have not discussed a lease option and it wouldn't be we would we we would create a new lease entirely. So that is something I don't know if B would be BYU would be open to a lease agreement. That's just not something we had talked about. Yeah, we haven't talked about that. Why why is it BYU's preference to purchase land as opposed to something like a lease? Um it it came up as a purchase we had just talked about it.

Okay. And I will go back was I don't know what will happen with Oakidge. Oakidge is in a little nicer condition. So that may stay but was in poor conditions. Councelor Foda. So when you say Wasach will go away, do you envision Do you envision just selling the property to some At some point the building will either have to be um I I just can't see us remodeling it because it's in such poor condition. That's what you're saying. We really don't know what we're going to do with it. So you don't know if you're going to put a parking lot on it or if you're going to put a parking garage on it.

Yeah. What is what's stopping you guys from putting parking garages up on campus? Um, parking garages are about underground and then going up there about $46,000 per stall and then you're about $30,000 per stall for an above ground. And so that's what's stopping us. 30 how many,000? It's about um anything below ground is about 45 46,000 and above ground you're about 30,000 per stall. And so and you throw a parking then it just creates more traffic in that one area. Well, this is a lot of the feedback that we're getting Yeah.

is that BYU needs to start staying within their footprint and start building up building parking garages and and building there instead of expanding out. Um, and we've gotten, let me tell you, I went to go exercise at at the wreck this morning and by the time I got out, I had 15 emails. And my email, I traveled home yesterday because we went to St. George for a conference last week and I got home yesterday. I was traveling yesterday. My phone was just stinking going off all the time. This isn't just one person's opinion. This is a lot of FOBO that is filling that BYU needs to start staying within its footprint and start building up getting some parking garages. I'm not doing this to be mean. I'm just doing this to let you know that the distaste for us to sell this is pretty high.

Um they want you guys to stay within your footprint. Oh, that's fine. We we don't we want to be good neighbors with with Pearl City. We've worked together for years and so if if you guys decide not to sell that's we're we're not here trying to tell you that we want it. Thank you. Any other questions for BYU we got them? Gary Garrett. Some of the images that we received showed the BYU signage on Birch Avenue uh at the parking lot entrance.

Yes. Um if if in fact they were where they looked like they were and if those have been removed I want to commend BYU we pulled the worms removing those in advance. Thank you until this issue is settled that was then

good. Uh and then my other comment is I kind of feel like this issue is being unfairly framed and and even the site itself that says Kanas Park surplus property. Maybe at one point this was part of Kuanas Park when the lease agreement was entered into 50 years ago. But at best I would say the argument the citizens had is please return this property to park use. But everyone's saying don't sell off park. This I don't view this as Kan Park. I view it as parking and playgrounds that were used by the school district. So anyway, I I wanted to just clarify that as well.

That's a good point. I think the reason we call the Kuanas Park is because you've looked at a parcel map. It's on the parcel for Kuanas Park that clarifying information probably would have been helpful. Bestits surplusing pro. Yeah. Well, I think so. I used to live there and I paid that park for 10 years with my children. It was very much accessible and I played with my kids there and I'd park there and sometimes when I had to work, I'd watch them while I worked in my car. Like, it's accessible and I use it a lot. And so, a lot of people with little kids would use it.

They do it that way. Absolutely. So, um, and there's not a lot of parking at Kanas, so when you have a bunch of kids, you're carried around, it's really hard to find a place to park that you're not running across the street, which is dangerous. So, like that's a coveted parking area when you are playing with your bunch of kids. Um, I I'm definitely not open to selling any of Provos's park land. And I consider this parkland. I don't care if it becomes a rose garden or parking lots or more playground. It's very valuable space and I definitely want to keep it. This is one. All we're doing is growing more dense. We're just more and more people. The last thing we want to do is lessen our park space and I'm very perplexed by the price because lots are selling in this city for a half acre at a million dollars. So, this price seems ridiculous to me. And I had multiple people reach out to me on that account saying this price

it probably has a lot to do with the zoning. This price is really cheap. And um the I've re I've heard from over I've heard from over 75 people through email, text, phone calls. Um and not one person supports the idea of this and I'm not surprised by that. I think there is still a lot of hard feelings about Wasatch because I heard about that a lot from people too. Yeah,

there's I don't know when Provo will ever get over that land swap. So, um it's it's still painful, but um lots of comments about the parking garages. People want parking garages and they they think it's very overdue and they're frustrated seeing the music building being built without a parking garage and now the ASB being built without a parking garage. I don't know if that's true. That's what they told me. But um that there should be parking garages on the bottom. There should be parking garages on the land that they own and that um that the park because also very um very strong consensus that parking is very much needed. I heard from a lot of UE employees saying parking is a nightmare and we as employees have been dealing with this forever. A bunch of retired people even said it's always been a problem the whole time before I retired. So parking is a problem. They acknowledge that but this isn't the solution. Councelor Christensen.

Yeah, the the issues around the playgrounds playgrounds come and go. Uh prime land like this does not this will not this will not come back. I and I I can see be why BYU would want to land bank this. Uh it's a very prudent thing to to ask for. I I appreciate that BYU is not being heavy-handed about this. Um, and it's also prudent that Provo land bank. So whether this is set up as a park, you know, or has been seen on that in a different list, this is this is land that will not come back to us and I would be a hard pass on this.

Council, uh, sorry, Council Whitlock. Um, one thing that was I also heard a lot from constituents that I was curious if someone from parks and wreck could speak to is that Kijuanas is one of the most heavily trafficked parks in the city. Do you have any data or um research to suggest kind of like relative use of Kuanas to to other parks?

I would say that Kanis is one of the heavier used parts especially around uh the July 4th holiday for fireworks. Um, but after the holiday impacts, it is probably one of the more it's I would say it falls within regular use of capacity for the park. It's a larger park, so people can spread out well on there. Um, I would have to get back to you on numbers, but I I could provide those.

Councelor Whipple. Yeah, I would um I would be open to some sort of an agreement where BYU is able to use the existing parking lots that are there. I wouldn't want any landscaping change or anything like that because um a lot of the need for that parking space by the community would be weekends or other times that it wouldn't be necessary for the BYU employees. I think that would be a good faith solution. That's a very temporary one just while the ASB is being constructed and that overflow parking is needed. Um I think we do need to work with BYU since we are sharing a property line and we have assets that are crossing over that line for those parks or the playgrounds to get that figured out. And they've been pretty good at working with us on things like that. I am completely opposed to selling the property. Um, I can remember going to both of these playgrounds when I was an undergrad and just assuming that the reason that there were fences there was for restriction during the school day, but that those were community assets the rest of the time. And I believe that's how most people in the community treat it. Um, even if parks hadn't been recognizing that officially. And I mean, this is where I got engaged. So, I've got like strong emotional ties to this park even though I don't live next to it.

And I would also say I wouldn't have any trouble either uh coming up with a short-term lease to accommodate, you know, construction the next few years. What I don't have a problem with that at all. I heard that a lot from constituents that they would be open in the spirit of being good neighbors with something like that as long as it was um like you said, not altered. the property was not altered, just using the existing playground. And um and it was beneficial to the city, whether it's, you know, the the the cost of the lease or potentially some kind of contribution towards getting it back towards more park space.

Councelor Bogdan, John, why have it captive? Um, the one thing that I did hear is that people really did like the playground that was fenced off. It is a great asset for young children so that they can just not worry about them running around and being in places where they shouldn't be. Runners are runners are always a thing under five, aren't they? But, um, that was really valued. I didn't hear that they wanted that to go away. I don't know what the condition of that playground equipment is and I don't know that we know

but um I have heard that residents are making their own repairs to some of our equipment. So the sooner that we can get some of that equipment redone I think would be in our best interest. But I just wanted to point that out. I don't know that they're up for tearing down the fencing. just leaving maybe resigning the fencing so that it's it's clear that it's okay to use it. But yeah, keeping those shorties contained. Super useful. Also, I kind of like the old school swings and stuff like that. Those are probably not up to any kind of standard, but they are great.

Okay. Any more discussion? All right. Is that all you need from us? Yes. Thank you. Thank you to BYU for coming. No, the surplusing won't because it doesn't sound like there wouldn't be support to move it. So, I'll talk to BYU about the possibility of a lease to see if that would work. Okay. Thank you, Terra. And thank you, BYU, for coming. Yeah. Thank you for answering our questions. We did our emails. We just got we have to pivot. All right. Um Brian, if you can please speak to our close meeting.

Yes, we do have an additional topic which deals with potential acquisition of property which is one of the purposes for strategy session regarding acquisition of property which is a purpose for a closed meeting of the statute. So it' be appropriate to move to close meeting at this time. Great. We have a motion for a closed meeting. In that case, I'll move that we close this meeting. So, second that. Wonderful. We will close the meeting. Do we need to do a vote? Yes. Let's do a vote. All right. A vote on doing close meeting. Councelor Whit, yes. Councelor Bogen, yes. Councelor McKay, yes. Councelor Christensen, yes. Councelor Whitlock, yes. Councelor Garrett, yes.

And that passes 70. I think so.

Recording stopped.