Finance Committee - Regular Meeting

Good evening.

It's a little after seven. I just wanna

announce that the recording secretary texted me about well, a little bit ago. She she was unable to make make it, so she'll take the minutes from the video. And I will call to order the finance committee of Newborough at 07:03PM. It's Thursday, 04/23/2026. We're in the small conference room in the town hall, and this will be recorded by MCAM and will be re released at a later date. If we could please have a pledge.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of The United States Of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

There's not there's no materials checked other than we did post a meeting for Monday. I don't know if the agendas came out yet, but we are to meet Monday, April 27, 06:45PM in a small conference room here and resets to a select board meeting for possible budget discussions in our presentation. So that should be coming to you if you haven't already received it. And other materials that the interim town manager has already passed out. And unless there's any any questions from anyone from the committee.

Thank you, mister Perkins. Mister Sullivan, I just wanna give you two updates real quick. The first is the April 27 meeting. There has been a change due to the impact bargaining sessions. They are ongoing.

We have not completed them. I would not be able to put put the budget together in time for April 27 and continue to bargain in good faith as the town is required to. So I've recommended to the board select board that we, on April 27, review the articles for town meeting. I recommend to table article two because it will not be completed. It's only completed once the final budget's presented on May 4, and then reopen article two on May 4, and then they can vote to accept the budget and the articles on town meeting, and that'll give us enough time for posting as required for the June 1 town meeting.

So that was one change that has happened since we last met. The second change is the update in the local aid or the cherry sheets. The town realized a net gain of 62,000 I think it's $1.78. I don't have that paperwork in front of me. I brought some other things tonight.

There's a very minimal impact to the deficit. But those are the two updates I wanted to provide this committee with. So if I don't expect any budget updates at the select board on the twenty seventh other than to report that we are continuing with the impact bargaining. Impact bargaining, we've come to an agreement in MOU with police. I believe a clerical one is about to be agreed to, hopefully, by tomorrow afternoon.

We are still bargaining with library and GMEG, and the other unions do not have any impacts to their collective bargaining unit to negotiate. That's where we stand with impact body bargaining.

So on the twenty seventh with the selector, it will be just going over the other articles.

Of the town meeting. Of the meeting. Yes. That is we have one issue to discuss about that. I don't know where you want me to stop, but I'd like to stop there because I'm gonna have to let the select board know as well.

So tonight at 05:00, I received a phone call from the administrative assistant at the fire department. She informed me that in September '25, the town received a grant from FEMA, an equipment grant, in the amount of $203,940 and that's for hose. Now this grant app or the grant award letter is 37 pages long. I didn't print off the entire document for each of you. I gave you the first three pages.

It basically talks about purchasing hose. Now I know we received nine pallets of hose two weeks ago. At that time, the interim chief had just walked through the door. They were looking for a place to store it. He told me he believed that it was purchased with grant money.

Well, apparently it was. The issue with this is the town has a $18,540 match that's required. The administrative assistant at the fire station asked if this was ever placed as a article on town meeting, and I said it had not. I hadn't known about it. Again, this was awarded on 09/23/2025, so we have to come up with $18,540.

Now the chief has gone. I wasn't able to talk to him. I'll talk to him again on Monday about this. She was just letting me know. So this thing has popped, we need to make a determination on how we're gonna handle it.

I think I'll have more information on Monday and aft you know, sit down with the chief and look through his budget and see what he can afford and how we would be able to find or fund our portion of the $200, which is $18,540. So I just wanna make you aware of that. The other thing I need to make make you aware of because I think it may directly impact the finance committee emergency transfer fund that you are responsible for. The fire chief informed me that the tower truck is out of service. It needs to be repaired.

Now they have gotten one price to repair it at $45,000. Minimum. Minimum. From one particular company. There may be a local company. He's going to get attempt to get three bids. The second bid is a local company who doesn't think it's gonna be that much money. Either way, that is a a very vehicle that the fire department obviously needs. It's a vital necessity, a vital piece of equipment, and they need it back in service. So at some point, we're gonna need to figure out how we're gonna get it repaired once we get three three quotes on the emergency repair.

I know and I'm aware that the finance committee has the authority for emergency transfer of funds from an account. And I would at least like to make you aware that's a consideration. I'm not officially asking for that, but I just wanted to put it on your radar so you're aware of it.

Mister chair?

Yes. I

have a question for Joe. So the fire department has nine pallets of hose and there was this match that was required for $18,540. The line item in the budget for fiscal year twenty seven was another $35,000.

32.

32. Thank you.

Mhmm.

And unless I'm mistaken, I haven't looked, but was there also not a line for fiscal year twenty six for 35,035?

It was this current year

Yeah.

$32,000 the same request for next year of $32,000.

So

And the previous year was, I don't think, 3,000?

It's was like 3,952 or something. Small

number. Okay.

Yeah. So I'm just trying to track this, and this letter is dated 09/23/2025. It would seem to me that they already had enough of with the nine pallets. I

think the nine pallets that were delivered a couple weeks ago Yep. Is connected to this award. Okay. We just haven't fulfilled our commitment Right. Of our match.

Okay. And then I had heard somewhere that and I don't know the technical pieces of fire hoses because I don't know much about that. The couplings on the hose, there was concerns that when we have mutual aid Universal connections. Yes.

Yes. Do we know if I believe the new hose is universally

Okay.

Capable Okay. To be connected capable of being universally connected with other departments.

Okay. And then And I know

Matt had a meeting with the fire chief and talked about that.

Yeah. And my last question would be, what would we anticipate we should see on a yearly basis for replacement cost for fire hoses? I would

need to ask that question to the fire My expertise in hose is next to nothing.

Like me.

But I would say, I don't I mean, I've seen them.

Yeah.

Yeah. I I don't believe that they're know, the durability of them should last more than a year. Yeah. Okay. I would assume. Okay. I would hope. I would hope.

Yeah. Phillips.

Through the chair. So as Joe just mentioned, I met with interim chief Fontaine yesterday, and we did have a discussion about the hose. So currently, the way I understand it is the hose that is equipped on the vehicles, on the fire trucks, along with the couplers on them are not universal. So when there is mutual aid, there's no no interoperability. This new hose is the universal connection.

So now if there is a situation where there's mutual aid, be able to, you know, connect to other municipalities equipment, vice versa, they'll be able to connect to ours. I do have an invoice here. This is only one, but it's got three line items for a taco is one and a half inch by 50 foot coupled. One's blue, one's red, one's yellow. Don't know exactly what the difference is between the two, but it shows a quantity of eight with each one with a unit price of $1.48 46.

And each of the three line items comes out to $1,187.68. So you're looking at, you know, $3,600 roughly there. One thing on the invoice, it says that order must be prepaid. So I believe it would stand a reason that this was paid before it was fulfilled. So that's something we'll have to look at as far as what our obligation is towards that 18,000.

Perhaps this is putting a dent into that. But we also discussed too, just to back up, as Joe had mentioned, tower one truck is out of commission. The PTO is junk on it. Like, chief Fontane put it to me was when it was built at the manufacturer, the PTO was incorrectly mounted. It was like a couple of half inch bolts securing it to the frame of the the vehicle.

And as you can imagine, it's driven off of the engine of the truck, and it powers the pump for distribution of water. Well, as you one can imagine, there's a lot of torque on that. So there was a mounting bracket system that the PTO was supposed to be mounted in, and for whatever reason, the manufacturer didn't, mount it in the appropriate place. Again, as Joe had said, the first bid that we had to replace that PTO and get that, truck back online was at a minimum $4,045,000 dollars, more likely $50,000. However, there is a local vendor that has indicated that they could they're reasonably certain they can do it for a fraction of the price, more in, like, the $10,000, price range, but not only repairing it, getting it back in commission, but appropriately mounting the PTO in the bracket where it was supposed to originally have been.

So and, again, just to reiterate what Joe said was, chief Fontaine's also looking to secure a third bid just to, have three different options to choose from. But, yeah, we've got he's got the hose. The hose is going to be implemented. There is a conversion, obviously, that has to take place on the equipment, on the apparatus themselves or apparati. I believe it's the plural.

So once that gets done, everything's gonna be good to go. Like, the my concern was, we have this hose. Is this just sitting in a corner somewhere collecting dust? He assured me, no. It's not. There is a plan to put it to use and to convert every piece of equipment over to that universal connection.

My question would be, it probably doesn't exist, but any kind of warranty or anything that they can go back on?

On the truck? I believe we bought that tower in 2020 2005. I believe Oh. Gary was Gary Russell was the five chief police chief when they bought that tower. Okay. So it was 02/2005, 2006, somewhere in the

Good question someone might ask. Yeah. But 2,005.

Yeah. I I believe that. I know we bought a towel then. I I think it's the same one.

So Thank you. Go ahead. Through the chair.

The

grant, the 203,000 in in the match, but the the grant, is that a a drawdown grant as well? So is there

I think it's a straight cash. Okay. So Yeah. We just had a match. The eight we our contribution to that was 18.

Okay.

I think that the federal government was giving us $1.80 re.

$1.85 to

400. Once once we do that match

I think

we already

have money. Oh, we do? I I believe. I the the question was from the administrative assistant, did the town ever get to 18? She believed the plan was at some point to maybe make it a article on a town meeting. When? She didn't know. She was inquiring, is it on this one? I told her no. But how do we find the $18,000, how do we find that? So again, I I just wanna make you aware of it. When I know, you know, and we'll I'll try and have more information from Monday.

Did did we check back to the town meeting warrant articles? I mean, I I know there was a a few from the fire department. I can't remember if it a special or an annual meeting. And there was usually a discussion around some if there was a match required.

Right.

The amount, so

Well, this came in in September '25, so there would only have been just the hall town meeting, and nobody could remember a hose matching grant article. It that may not be the appropriate funding mechanism for this anyways. I'm I'm not sure what it what would be. Yep. Like I said, I wanna get more information.

I just wanted you to make aware that this is another issue with grants that we're having. And and then and I will get into that a little more, I think, last week. You know, we had more questions than answered answers on the safer grant, and I have a lot more information I wanna share on that particular topic and the personnel issue that was brought up. So again, I just want you to know what I know as I know it.

Through the chair. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

Just very quickly through the chair. I think it's worth noting that this this grant is for equipment.

And it may be more than hose. Right. Yeah. Like I said, 37 pages. I just know I not even looked through it. I literally printed it off before I walked Right. Down here. It was emailed to me around five, 04:35. I know it was hose, but it could be could be for more more or different items. It's an equipment grant. So Right. It might not just be hose, it may be other things.

Yep.

And That's okay. No. So it's an equipment grant. So $203,818.05 40, that's 9% of $203,009.40. Can we I just wanna throw something out there. If it hasn't been spent, the 203, and if we can't come up with $18.05, is it possible we return 9% of the grant and then that would get us to $0 to have to pay back to the

I don't know how that works. I I guess that I haven't even Yeah. Printed it off without reading it to give it to you ten minutes ago. Right. Yeah. I I gotta look through it.

Maybe that's

a good question for

Yeah. Can have

a change.

Yeah. Okay. Because my fear is that if it hasn't been spent, then we're on hook with the $18.05. But if it hasn't been spent and we can't come up with $18.05, we have to come up with a plan to cover the eighteen five. And maybe that's a possibility. I don't know. But yep. Just figured it would must be worth mentioning.

Yeah. Thanks for the question. Am just following that trail, John, and and to you, Joe. So if if we have it, can we we come up with the 18, the balance can it be used to off set something that's

The problem with grants are they're very specific. What you write the grant for, what the grant allows you to spend money on is is really specific. And if this is equipment grant, it I'm sure it's just for equipment. Okay. That's how it was explained to me. It was an equipment grant. And the hose was bought from it.

Maybe there was something in the fire department budget that needs equipment that

we Yeah. I like I said, I don't even think the chief knew about it. They the administrative assistant called me as soon as she realized it tonight. So Okay. Thank you.

Yeah. I guess I'm just kind of alluding to what Alan just said.

So it's not an unrestricted grant.

It's I think it is a restricted grant.

It's for

what It's restricted. Okay.

And I guess you kind of alluded to it a little bit, but does that is that is there a problem townwide with when it comes to grant applications and how they are funded? So say, for example, if one department applies for a grant, but it needs a match, where does that money for that match come from? Is that something that you're do you think that's that's an issue town wide or or something needs to be addressed at a later date? Or

Personally, I'm not a fan of grants. The paperwork and the, amount of effort that goes into them oftentimes it worth the the amount that you get back. These numbers are different. $200,000, $2,200,000, that's those are different numbers. Normally, you're looking at, you know, $15,000 here, 5,000 there.

And in this situation, every penny helps. But if you're not doing the paperwork, documenting the use of the money Mhmm. Then that's when it becomes a problem. And I think that's what's happened here with the SAFR grant and possibly with this grant, only because the administrative assistant didn't know where the $18,000 is and didn't know and it was news to me about another grant at the fire department.

Mhmm.

So again, you need to while it is fulfilling oftentimes to get a grant, the work that goes into it is it's tedious. There's a lot of documentation, you know, timely reporting. And, unfortunately, I think we that may have been an issue with a couple of these grants that we hadn't fired upon. Yep. Usually, mister chair so I usually from my understanding, it's like a report

and schedule, and there's a timeliness of how

Reimbursement documentation Yeah. Is important.

Yep. But so I'm just going back to this. I mean, in a in a normal year where we're not in

a budget deficit Correct.

Basically, this '23 would you would just figure out some spots within this budget just to

pull from to pay for the eighteen five. And I think once I talk about the other things, realizing, you know, how to find the eighteen five in this in the budget now, I think you have a better understanding. I've I've met with the union today. We discussed a lot of things that came up in the meeting last week, your meeting specifically. You know, they gave you some talking points, understanding how the six firefighters is are funded and how we have funded them without receive receiving our reimbursements.

That's what I wanna discuss tonight too. I also have good news about a time period of funding that I'm expecting to come in only because I believe we caught it in time that we won't get locked out of this particular time period. I just don't know when it'll come in, but I met with Sue Nickerson on how we're going to set it up in a more I would transparent is not the word. I just people to see it and understand it a little better. You know, some of the things we talked about last week, again, with more questions raised than we had answers for. So I think tonight's a little better.

Okay. Mister Phillips.

So through the chairs, as it pertains, we're talking about grants. I know we had a grant writer, Stephanie Hall. Yep. Is she still on the employee at the time?

She is. Okay. She is the only person with a safer grant connection was chief Owen Thompson. He was the the designated contact for the SAFR grants.

Okay. Now is that anything that she can do now?

She has taken it over.

She has taken it We

have now chief Fontaine came in. We, recognized the lack of reimbursement submissions for the grant, and, chief Fontaine designated Tom Malucci, and Tom Malucci and Stephanie Hall sat in the office last week for half a day, signing up, getting FEMA passwords, making sure there was more than one contact person for the grant because there was only one contact person for the grant. Now there's three. So we have we're making sure that when we get the email alert saying that important documents are required, that those emails go answered and not unopened. Right.

Okay.

Thank you.

Anyone else in that particular matter? Okay.

So speaking of the SAFE and grant, I gave you each This document here, this is the budget impact of the six firefighters that are paid for with the safer grant, the, salary for fifty three weeks. I also was asked to point out, fire department does their budget on a fifty three week cycle because of the shift they work. They work twenty four hour shifts. For budgeting purpose, that department always does a fifty three week budget because some people work through a week or make a extra week beyond the pay period because of they work twenty four on, 24 off, twenty four on, five days off. So that's what I was asked to, make sure that this committee was aware of why the fire department has a fifty three week budget every year, not just weeks to have 53 pay periods.

Okay. Great. This account or this schedule is kept by the budget director. So far, as we talked about last week, we had a $162,000 received from the federal government to reimburse these six firefighters. They are not in the budget book.

That was clear, but that these are the people this is their pay schedule for current 2026. 2025, as I said, most of them were high in January or February 2025. Received January. I know we were talking about some of the math. How were they paid during the time we did not get reimbursed?

So this document that I didn't share with you because it's a public record, you can go on. It's from the Department of Local Division of Local Services DLS website, and it is the certification of free cash for fiscal year twenty six. On the first page, page one of eight, the bottom of the page, under other receivables, overdrawn accounts and deficits, this is considered what they term a hit against our free cash. Last year, we received a hit of a $149,579 for the SAFR grant. So when we were wondering how they how are they getting paid at the end of the year after all the town's funds have been expended through budgets, we have a little pile of cash left.

Last year was $44,453,099 prior to certification of free cash. As the state looks at our free cash, they look at our other receivables, overdrawn accounts, deficits, they considered hits. One of the hits that popped was the safer grant, so that was paying for people that we didn't have in a budget. So that's how they were funded. The problem with that is our free cash, what we thought sending in was 4.4.

What we actually got back was 2.6 because of hits against free cash, that the state realized before they certified it. So that's the placeholder. That's the actual payment that goes to pay the people in there. It is noted in the ledger that they were paid, but the the hit goes against our free cash certification. It's not free cash after being certified, it's a hit prior to certification.

Okay. Everyone understand? Alright. So the fear this year was if we didn't get the $400,000 that we were owed for fiscal year '26, what was the hit going to be against our free cash this year? So the good news, on Tuesday, April, Tom Bellucci, is one of he's a lieutenant on the fire department.

He is one of I meant just mentioned him. Chief Fontaine has designated him kind of the FEMA grant overseer, as well as chief Fontaine, as well as myself, as well as the assistant assistant to the town manager. So we have actually four people watching when FEMA sends request for reimbursements now. They chief Fontaine had a contact at FEMA. That individual from FEMA came down.

There was some discussions. The lack of the town's part to submit the reimbursement forms in a timely fashion was a problem. The fear at that time when we met last week was the town may get locked out of this time period funding in which was about $400,000, because we did not comply in a timely fashion. FEMA was has been closed for a little while, so we weren't sure really what was gonna happen. But on Tuesday, I received the email.

Today, we submitted a FEMA safety grant payment request of 387531¢. This represents the payroll period from 06/22/2025 through 04/04/2026. So it's been submitted. We also got notification on another FEMA grant, It's very small number of $12,000 that we will be receiving payment within the next three days. Not the SAFR grant, another FEMA FIRE grant.

I don't I haven't really locked that one down. It's just good to see that FEMA is starting to get up and running, at least getting the payments out even though I believe there's still a shutdown or some slowdown or whatever the federal government is doing. So in speaking with Sue Nickerson, because we now have that in writing and have some emails to document that, she's able to make a receivable entry into the twenty sixth budget, a placeholder for that number. And then as long as we're paid by September 30, those funds will be, put towards those six firefighters, and that is that will not be an awkward deficit just in the fire department. So that should get squared away.

Put that up.

Through the chair. I'm still very confused as to how these firefighters were being paid in the absence of this funding by way of the safer grant. Because going back to last week's meeting, you had payroll that showed 35 firefighters, but there's 42 on the department head count.

41 in a vacant position.

So, again, 41, 42. Alright? Greater than 35, they'd be getting paid. How were they being paid? And from what account? Because it clearly wasn't safe.

It was general fund money from my understanding. In that number at the end of the year, if you go to certify the free cash, that number is 149579. That's a hit. Right. Hits are bad. Right.

I get it.

Because we think we have Right. 4,400,000 at the end of the year. All the budgets are expended. All the bills are paid, we submit 4,400,000 to the state for certification. Hey. That's our free cash. That's what's left over. Oh, no. You paid the fireman. You have an overdrawn account or a deficit in an account, this account, the safer account.

And your liability for that account is 149,579. Deduct that from 4,400,000. And there's a list of accounts in that that were in that state prior to. So making sure we have less hits going into the process to certify the free cash is a good thing, and that's one thing we're working on is trying to limit these hits. But if you look at them, a lot of them are grants.

Again, you have a grant, you're supposed to get money, you spend the money, it doesn't come in at time, the fiscal year ends, You've already paid that person, but now your line item in that account is short, overdrawn, or or deficit spent. Mhmm. How do you reconcile that? Oh, okay. Here's our pile of money over here, the 4,400,000, and the state goes, well, you gotta take minus this, and then you just subtract that because you really don't have 4.4. You really only have 2.6.

And I understand that. So now that really kind of begs the question, why is what was it? Four point Four point four five

three zero nine nine.

Say 4.4. Why is 4.4 being submitted to the state for certification? Shouldn't somebody who's sending these figures in know that, oh, actually, it's not gonna be 4.4. It's gonna be 2.6 Well because we didn't get

this money.

Unfortunately, think she does know. And this is if you'll if you're doing the books and you're looking and you know these accounts overdrawn on one side or deficit spent Yeah. But your ledger on this side shows, alright, we have 4.4. It still has to go to the state so they certify it and you're not left doing it. I think they know. For example, like, I know the support and incentive grant for the police department. Yeah. I know sometimes I think they overspent it last year by I think it was $600. So for example, you have, let's say, a $100,000 that you received for training. Mhmm.

And for whatever whatever reason, maybe someone was sick a day of training, they go and make it up, and you expend $600 more than you're allotted, that's a hit. Right. Or you you have a deficit in a regular line item that isn't covered under the budget, that would be a hit too. Just looking at how you subtract the hits from that, there's a lot of times that is there they just happen. So these just happen. This is why the state is the overseer to be able to say, okay. They happen, but, yes, your side of the ledger said you had 4.4. Once you reconcile all these hits, you only ended up with 2.6. I think that's how the process is supposed to be. That's why you have that check-in balance.

Okay. It just seems kinda weird to me that, like, if you know, you know, and you think coincidentally, I think it's worth noting is last year.

We've always had hits. I talked No.

And I and I

It always happens. I just think this again, there's there's another one on here, fire truck. Like, that's another one I'm looking at. Like, alright. So you're saying we didn't get the money for a fire truck or we didn't pay enough? That's a big one. Again, FEMA, Grant, mini pumper. That's a fire truck, $381,000. Like, those aren't issues where someone's like, then you have a $6. Playground grant, $6. So, I mean, it it the range is so wide that this is just the check and balance. And as long as you have the documentation, then I mean, we still did 2.6. We got back 2.6 Right. Cash. I think it's, I don't think it's in fairness.

I just think that's the way it works. At least that's my understanding.

It just seems concerning to me, a 150 k. You know? I mean, $600 when you're talking about a $110,000,000 budget.

Right.

Okay. Understand understandable that Right. 600 oh, jeez. Well, I think this

is this is a good process because if we didn't know, you didn't know, anyone didn't know, we didn't receive the reimbursement for the SAFR grant. So this is the check against that. So as you say, how are they getting paid? They were just getting paid. But there's a placeholder that says, hey. You should have gotten a $149,005.79 from the federal government, and you didn't. But yet, this is the money you spent. This is the hit that you have against your free cash because you spent town money. So when that extra 149,000 ever does come back, that's the question. Where does it go? Does it go back into the general fund? Because we use general fund money towards it.

Standard reason.

Yes. That's what I believe happens.

Right. Yeah. It just it really I don't know. And I just think it's worth noting is last year, last year's budget, at least I remember, we were told that there was a $150,000 placeholder baked into the fire department budget specifically for SAFR. I remember that vividly because I also remember this year vividly being told there's $300,000 baked in as a placeholder I

remember that.

For SAFR. So if it's already been budgeted, why like, I I don't know. It just it it's raise for me, it's raising more questions than it's answering. Because if you're properly mitigating for an expense in your budget, there should be absolutely no way anyone's coming hat in hand saying, hey, we came up a $150,000 short for the very thing that's already been earmarked in the budget. And we were told, we're not even gonna touch it.

This is just a placeholder. We're not touching this. We've we've got it we've we've got everything taken care of.

I'm aware of

that.

But now all of a sudden, well, apparently, it wasn't taken care of. Like, you see you see what I mean, this is where it raises more questions I'm aware of than it answers for. I'm aware of it. So just wanted to put that out there.

Yes. Through the chair. Joe, so the hits are being tracked. So Yes. So it's not so you've got a

Every hit is tracked.

Credit receipt, debit, debit.

Don't I don't want anyone to understand. This isn't just police. This is every department. I mean, sorry. This isn't just fire. This is every department.

So so so the the this is something the finance director tracks. Yes. Is there a reporting that can happen so that as you

Before it goes out, we know?

Well I think she does

have an idea. I just It's

like an account receivable. Right? So if there's a hit and she's tracking it for $387,000 on fire, is there a communication from finance director to fire chief? Hey. What are are you tracking this? Are you submitting so that we get our money? So I I understand we've got a a balance sheet to track it, but is there a kind of reporting Reporting function. So that there's a reminder because of the the $6 one cut. Yeah.

So I would say this. That is her her responsibility is to meet with department heads quarterly to discuss all items financial Okay. Budget, grants, everything. She had done that.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm not questioning the finance director.

I'm just Yep.

Question what I'm hoping that we have a process for that reporting so.

She can only recommend and suggest.

You can't That's

all she the authority she has.

Yep. Yep.

And I'll leave it at that.

Okay. Oh,

I'm sorry. Just just a follow-up question on that. So the $3.87 that you mentioned, if if we get that by June 30, it doesn't become a hit.

So if we get that by September 30. September. Yes. Because that's when we certify free cash. Oh. So we're good. She can she can put an accounts receivable Okay. Placeholder there. Okay. Is that is the process for municipal finance when they have an award letter.

And the question was last week, did we miss our window because we failed to submit our reimbursement documentation in a timely fashion? That was the fear. I I believe we're good, because FEMA was closed. I think they took a little may have taken pity on us, and because they were closed for a period of time, I think we got lucky. But if if I don't if that wasn't the case, I don't believe we would have gotten our reimbursement.

I know we wouldn't have gotten we did not get our reimbursement paperwork in on time. I just think we we might get lucky on this. From this email that I was given on Tuesday, if the submission was accepted, which is a good sign it would have been rejected if we had missed the time period for reporting. That's what I'm told.

So that puts us into a payment schedule that could have us paid by September 30.

By September 30. Yes.

Okay. Anything you want?

I I mean, I don't wanna kick a dead horse with the Sabre Grant stuff, but I believe the rationale for the $300,000 placeholder was that it was placeholder in the budget for when the firefighters come off of the safer grant, they just fit into that $300,000.

So what's gonna happen at some point, you have fired upon a budget. It's let's call it for tissues and round figures. It's a million dollars. You add in six firefighters that you're getting reimbursed by the federal government their salary over three years. Over that three year time period, that money is coming from outside the town of Middleborough taxpayer base.

At some point, that money is going to stop Yep. And your budget would have grown by six firefighters over three years that the town wouldn't have had to fund or didn't fund during that period. And then you are faced with, uh-oh. Now the fire department's budget Jumped. Is it it it's strange because what should have happened is shown that growth in the budget book instead of having them off the book.

Mhmm. And then all of a sudden throwing them on the book at the end. Now you're seeing the because now if you're putting that money into the fire department to build and cover that gap in three years, you're building their base number. If you look at, oh, in 2023, their budget was $9,800,000. In 2024, their budget was 900,000. In 2025, it was a million. Because you're getting that funding, and it's building up, also adding that cash to it. Mhmm. When that the federal funds get shut off, you are have that budget already there.

And all

of a sudden, you don't look at

They have a safe plan.

Police, the budget the fire department budget going from $1,000,000 to $1,500,000 because you have added these people, and you're like, wait. Where did this gap come from? That was the plan behind

Yeah.

So they have basically safe landing because of not

We don't have the cash to do that Exactly.

Your plan.

Yeah. So that's not gonna happen. You're gonna have to deal with this at some point in 2028 and 2029. Yep.

When you're trying to Mhmm. Shoehorn six firefighters, the payroll that comes with it into the fire department Yes. Instead of having what was originally planned was kind of a you build it up and kind of have a safe lane, and you can just slide them

into Yes. Because at the end of that period, if you add money to the fire department budget and not spend it Yep. The shock of the fire if you don't do that, then all of sudden and you're not putting them in the budget book over the three years and you add six, that fire department budget is gonna jump one year Huge. Half $1,000,000. The problem is The no money. Money that was getting put in Yeah. Getting spent.

Yeah. So On the other ones. Yes.

And I I will say this. I'm aware of that, and I'm aware of how that played out. But that's all I wanna talk about. That's all I'm allowed to talk about that tonight. Anybody

else? Just on the subject of hits for the Department of Revenue, they track this. They track it in several ways. The timing of the hits, the adjustments, the variances, the discrepancies, and the prior year totals, and they track it very detailed.

This this is a good thing. This isn't a bad thing.

Yeah.

It's it's clear. It's very transparent. It's it's not the the number of hits may it just may be a off year. In fact, one of the hits, the fire truck, it's fiscal year '22. So they they they carry. So, again, I'm still looking into why that was there, and that's a big number. Those two numbers right there, that's 500 and no. $20. Half $1,000,000. So that wouldn't have been we would have received 3.1 instead of 2.6.

So Mhmm. The you can see it. You can track it. So I'm I don't think it's any issue where, oh, this is a problem. It's just the way you do it.

Got it.

Mister Phillips? Just really quickly is you talked about the placeholder money being actually spent. It was designed. It is sounds good in theory. Is we allocate it. So there's a graduation.

Yeah. That's the word. Graduation to Right. The number.

Yes. As opposed to having a spike. Alright? Looking like a heart attack.

Mhmm.

Right? Way, you know, big big peaks and valleys. Right? Well, I think it's worth noting that when I met with chief Fontaine yesterday, I'd asked him for the overtime and total payroll spending and everything. So we had for 2020 f FY '26, we had budgeted for overtime at the fire department, $316,000.

I asked where are we currently at with that? Because, obviously, '26 is still in flight. We're at $676,421.31. Okay? And that's of when this was printed out, and I'll be more than happy to share this with everyone. So if you take that, that's about $300,000 difference between what was budgeted, 316 and 676 k. It's over $300,000. So to that point, yeah, the money was being allocated as a placeholder, but they were taking it out and

So I if I could, mister Joe. So I I like I said, I met with the union representatives today. Couple of things that I think is important that, you know, people know about in town. So 2024, apparently, according to the union, you know, there was an approval from town administration to fund minimum manning issues in the fire department, to staff positions that were not filled with operational replacement people. These vacancies created overtime.

They had also had four retirements, one in February 25, one in March 25, May '25, and January 26. They had not had anyone hired other than these six that weren't I'm sorry. The three that were in the academy now to bring their numbers up to a level that provided, I think, a minimum of eight. You know this. Is that the right number?

Well, yes.

Okay. Hope I just want Yep. That was not the fire department or the fire department union or fire department personnel. That was a decision made by, quote, the town according to the representatives of the fire union. They obviously can't dictate staffing levels.

At that time, this was some agreement with the town and the fire department to maintain South Fire central central with some minimal of two or three on each truck. I I don't know the specifics. They just wanted me to express to you that, you know, they were given the thumbs up that this was the way the town was moving forward. Additionally, we talked about the understanding or the belief that all three fire stations were open. That is not true.

Mhmm. The union also wanted me to make sure that that was put out there, that only North and excuse me, South and central are staffed with Middleborough firefighters. This North station being, quote, open, all three stations open, that is not true. There is no Middleborough fire staff at the North Station. So this was some of the discussion I had with the fire union representation today.

You know, they really wanted to, you know, have the town understand their perspective, what was told to them, you know, the service that they provide. I believe, you know, they they they do a good job. They are in a difficult position. Obviously, these numbers are, you know, eye popping to some, but this was allowed. To put it any other way is not true. This they were allowed to do this. And

I think something else that is worth noting, because you mentioned the North fire station and the false statement that all three fire stations are open and manned when, you know, for a fact, North is not.

North has only been staffed during the blizzard. Any, like, severe weather issue, they have not there's not been a Middleborough firefighter staffed there on a shift. I asked them specifically.

Yep. Mhmm. It might be confusing to some who drive by there because you do see activity there. Coastal is residing That's

a whole another issue that we

need to

address as soon as we get through this budget.

And I think and I think it's I think it's worth noting, though, is so if people drive by, if John or J and Q public drive by and they see, oh, I guess what station is open. It is not open. That is Coastal Mhmm. Who is, to my understanding, able to use that facility rent free.

That's my I've asked and inquired about that from you, mister chair, just to respond to him. That is on if you go in my office, it's on my whiteboard, North Station Rent. I was under the impression when we switched to Coastal, I was the chief that they were paying rent. I asked the, finance director how much rent had they paid, and it has been

zero. Just to oh, sorry.

Go on. Good. Good.

Just threw the chair back to that. I believe it's in the contract.

It may have been in the original contract.

Oh, is there a subsequent contract?

Yes. There is.

Oh, okay. I've had a conversation with Dana about it this morning. It the language may have changed from will pay rent to may pay rent.

Oh, interesting. Because I I can vividly remember back when we had Brewster Ambulance Service. They had a facility right on Wareham Street diagonally across from the G And E Substation, and that was theirs. That wasn't a town owned asset. They maintained that. They paid for the upkeep, the utilities, the whole nine yards. So I think it should should be noted

that It's on my to do list.

Taxpayers are paying that.

Through the chair. Since there is no rent apparently being paid at North Station, is that a decision that chief Fontaine can make? Or is that a decision? We

we are on that. We he is taking some time to look at it. He's the one that told me this morning about the new I wouldn't new agreement. MOU.

I see it.

He questioned it. So I don't really wanna say what it is because I don't think we really understood what

it was.

We with that is a priority. It's just all these other issues we're trying to sort through, pick up the pieces as we go. But this is definitely an issue that building, you know, we're receiving no no from what I was told, we have received no rent. Depreciation in the building being used

Mhmm.

The wear and tear, the gas, the electric, the toilet paper, yeah, we're paying for that.

And when yeah. Yeah.

Still do with Jerry. When

was do you know when the last time we had a rent payment for that building?

I don't. Okay. But I asked about any recently any rent from Coastal, and the budget director finance director said, I didn't know they were supposed to be paying. She didn't have anything.

Okay. I'm just trying to think of my last question before I yield my time. So to the best of your knowledge, at some point, the normal practice was we were receiving rent for that building.

My understanding, when I was the police chief

Yep.

When they switched from Bruce to the Coastal, was that they were gonna pay rent at North Fire.

And how was that agreement cons

believed it was in the contract. And it also says in the contract that they will maintain some type of building or facility within one or two miles of Downtown Middleborough. Mhmm. Yes. As in that that hasn't happened either.

And that contract would have been signed by the Select Board?

I don't know. I would I would imagine when it happened, yes.

Okay.

But I again, what I know, you know.

Yep.

I need to look at I need to get more information. I just checked. Have they paid rent? Nope. Yep. No record of rent. The fire chief right now is looking into it. It's on a right at the top of our list, right on the budget. No station fire rent. Okay. So, yes. So we'll

just figure that out. Yeah.

I I can give you an update. When I have more information, I'll pass it along. Okay. Thank you.

Yeah. Just very quickly, not to belabor the point any further, but to just your previous statement about there was a clause in the contract that within what was it? A mile

or two of downtown. It's supposed to have a a facility with a that house the backup ambulances.

Well, they actually do. It's Central Fire Station. That's where I'm being facetious.

Right. But I no. I've my understanding is they are supposed to have the Their primary unit at Central.

Oh. Oh, okay.

And then they were supposed to have another location. Maybe in the second truck could be at North, but if they were utilizing North as a base of operations, they were supposed to be paying rent.

Right.

Or have a building within one or two miles of downtown. It's some variation of those requirements. Either way, I don't think they fall on either requirement. So that's something we need to look at. If we are, you know, reduce the rent, again, where's the money?

And I just into that point, I remember specifically asking that, and I can't remember if it was the former town manager or the former chief, but I was I wanna say I'm I'm I believe I'm 99% sure it was Jay. I asked specifically about rent. If Coastal was paying rent because I see their vehicles. Yeah. They're basically platooning out of North Fire Station. And I asked specifically if they're paying us rent. And he said, they're taking they're taking real good care

of us.

That was it. That was it. That was the excellent explanation.

I do wanna also, mister chair, just mention that this topic of rent and the availability of Middleborough fire to use their North Station came from the firemen, from the firefighters themselves. They during the blizzard, it was

Their ability or inability?

Excuse me. Their inability to access their own department. Yep. To staff a truck there, it was there were four ambulances there. They didn't have room to put the fire truck. There was an issue. But this came from the firefighters themselves and being able to make sure that, you know, they get their version out, and I don't want them to be vilified and look like the bad guys. They're not. This was this entire issue, they're they're not gonna be able to make these decisions. They were allowed to happen. Anyone

else on the on the committee on this topic? I'd like to recognize Nancy if

you Hi. Nancy Kefalos.

Hi, Nancy.

So I know you said 12,000, but I just wanna give you a thing here for the new grant. Kelly Duna, Senator Kelly Duna had made a post a while ago.

Excuse me. Can you just explain, I think, a little

Oh, one you had mentioned 12,000 as a grant?

Oh, the one that just came in. Yeah. Yeah. So just came in Senator Kelly Dua

had had a post thing. I don't know if you've ever seen it. I haven't. I just saw the

email today that we got 12,000 for some grant.

Well, this is supposed to be $14,452.37

for equipment. That's a different grant. But if this was today or yesterday.

No. I

was I don't know. I gave I gave it to Nate, I think,

a week ago. Middleborough Fourteen? Okay. This is this is a state grant.

Okay.

We're talking about FEMA federal grants. Two different two different funding sources. One is state One is the federal government. Totally different. We haven't even talked about state grants. These are just FEMA grants from Alright. The federal government that we had talked about. And I there was a $12,000 email that I got today about again, it's all the information. I'm I'm getting inundated. People want to understand this these issues and trying to track it all. It's a lot of work. It hasn't been done for a while.

No. It's just wanted to make sure that you were aware of that one.

Okay.

That's all. Because it was so close in numbers. I

I don't I mean, that's I haven't even looked at the state grants until I'm sure when chief Fontaine when we sit down again on Monday, I'll I'll ask I just thought it might have been These are federal grants only that we've been talking about.

Alright. I didn't know. I didn't know what that Okay.

Thank you, Nancy. Mhmm. Anybody else from the committee? On this topic? Topic?

Yeah. I guess if you wanna go back to the hamper and stuff, I found the the email and the contract that was in the select board agenda. It sounds like from what I'm gathering from this that their services were extended till June 2029. So but the contract is in the agenda now. Is that the final one?

Again, we gotta look at it.

We gotta look at it.

Just so What I know, you know. Yep.

Anything else on this Nope. Matter?

One more topic? Is there any issue? Alright. The again, this is another issue that doesn't affect personnel, so it does affect numbers in a specific budget, elections. So I I shared a little bit with, Nate the other day.

Pam Acone, the, clerk has come up with a, cost saving. I mentioned I I may have tipped my hand a little bit last week. We talked about it. One of the cuts we're looking at was sentimental. It may be sentimental cut that people aren't happy with. Looking at consolidating polling locations, going from five polling locations to three. She has an entire PowerPoint presentation that's done. I've looked at it. She did it at you know, when we talked about the the cuts, the department head cuts to the clerk's office. This is one of the issues that we had talked about.

She literally went within two days, researched it, talked to the secretary of state, looked at the law. There are some regulations and requirements, of as far as polling locations, the actual location in relation to the precinct that it represents, the plan that she has come up with, adheres to all the requirements. Like I said, I've looked at the PowerPoint. I'm just waiting for a time, probably May 11 to for them for her to present it to the select board after we get through the balance balancing of the budget. It's not a huge savings.

It's about $20,000, but it's $20,000. So, that's one thing looking at, and it would be cutting the police details. You don't have to have as the details are required by law. And in in the police contract, the election is a mandated detail. It's not an assignment. So it's extra, and they're ordered to work it. So the detail rate's about a $100. So being able to cut it down, the number of officers working, would be would allow her to cut her budget by about $20,000. So I just thought it was a a a good idea, you know, someone thinking out outside the box. Mhmm.

And while it would be sentimental in the two locations that would be I don't wanna say eliminated because they're not eliminated. Consolidated. Consolidated into would be South Fire would go to the high school, and COA would go to, I wanna say Nichols. It's COA's five and five. Right? Five?

Five and five a.

Yeah. Five and five a would go to the middle school where seven and seven a is. Don't quote me. That's just thinking back to the presentation and trying to remember where the precincts are. But that's that's her. I I do wanna say that's her idea. I don't wanna steal her thunder, but I am gonna let her present that. And I'm you know, I I vote at self fire. It's sentimental to go to self fire and vote, but I don't mind driving to the high school. But, again, people are going I do think there's other reasons besides budget.

Self fire, ADA is isn't incompatible. The parking's terrible. Putting the fire department, having them shut down and move their operation. South's always been a bad location. Moving to the high school is better. It's more a it's more ADA convenient. There's more parking in the COA. Again, if you're voting on local elections on Saturday, it doesn't really impact it. But Tuesdays, when we vote for state and federal elections, it does impact COA operations. So being able to use the schools just gives us more parking and more space and along with Oak Point.

Anybody from the committee? Not on that.

That's all I have.

Just a general question. So the impacts of all this will be

presented May 4. May 4. May 4. Yes. May 4 meaning.

May 4 be reviewed.

Do the cheer when you have a chance.

I'm gonna need the fourth that day. Yeah.

Before choke comes loose. Yeah. Unless Unless you had any other topics but I

don't have any other topics.

So I'm looking at the DOR DLS numbers for the enterprise funds with water and sewer. As I mentioned in the select board meeting and I think we all know at this point the enterprise fund for water was in a deficit fiscal year twenty three of 1,600,000. Again, it was in a deficit fiscal year twenty four by 938,000 and change. And again in fiscal year twenty five, it was in a deficit of 568,000 and change. The sewer enterprise fund in fiscal year twenty four was in a deficit, 144,000 in change.

And in fiscal year twenty five, it was in a deficit mode of $367,000 $367,000 and change. For fiscal year twenty six, I know we are approaching the end of the fiscal year. Could we please get a statement of fund balances for the enterprise funds for water, sewer, and electric. Where they're currently at? Electric? Yeah. That might be separate. Water, sewer, and electric. Yeah. Because I'd be interested to see what the fund balances are. Electric.

Excuse me. Through the chair that that that's not one of our

enterprise accounts.

That's fine.

That's yeah. Because that's that that's

That's g d Yeah.

That's g d turf. I think that I I have no Say priority over that. Okay. I I would say That

would be the G and E commission.

I would say Alright. You could make that request Okay. Through them. Okay. I I don't I don't I don't have access to Okay.

Okay. Yeah. So water and sewer statement of fund balances would be great.

So do you want? Statement of

fund Yeah.

What where where are they currently? Their revenues and and expenses, that's all I'm looking for. Water and

sewer. Yeah. That's it.

Water and sewer. Yes. You got it. Thank you very much.

Yeah. I'm so sorry. Yeah.

Do you think you need

to No. I'm sorry. I I spoke out of turn. Just I apologize.

Yeah. So as you know, you know, you sent it over to

the board

that the basically, you know, updated financials for for '26. Did you have a chance to look at it and do you I haven't. Okay. Because the one

I sent it to you you as well.

Yeah. Okay.

Yesterday. Oh, I didn't have your email. Yeah. You wanna No.

I got it. Well, I'll I'll get it to you. Okay.

Well, thank you.

I got it through Bob. Yes.

I sent it to all of you and all the select board last night yesterday. So I haven't even looked at it.

No. So my my thought is the big thing that I've been harping on is what is what's local receipts now and where did it compare to last year? And then

I I did notice the percentages weren't the same. Mhmm. Yeah. That's the only thing they were lower. But I didn't take a deep dive in it. I just literally looked at it quick as I was emailing it to the 10 of you. So or the nine of you because any of you

So from what I've put up what I'm gathering, the year to date actual for local receipts is right now 9,300,000. In in talking to Sue, I asked her, I was like, well, how do you calculate that that final quarter? Do you just take the 9.3 divided by nine months and multiply it by 12 and that's the number you get? Or is it like, how does the fourth quarter, know, project compared to previous quarter?

That would actually be $3,300,000. If you get 9.3 over three quarters, it's 3.3 that we are left to come in.

I think it was that came up to I think I did it out was like 12.4 was Yeah.

It's about right. But she said that the fourth quarter is typically Typically lower. She said Oh, sorry. The fourth quarter

is typically higher because of the excise tax comes in.

And the bills went out late this year. Yep. That's the other Yeah. Issue for the slow. Yeah. Being able to make sure she, you know, we have have the the that was the other recommendation. Again, not for fiscal year twenty seven or maybe. I'm not sure if

Mhmm.

We talk about this. Looking at quarterly billing versus twice a year. Okay. Quarter four times a year versus twice a year. She believes it would give us a better cash flow.

Yep. And just so just to just to kinda expand upon that. Are we gonna sit down at some point and and and do the final math on what our what our projected revenues are gonna be with versus what our expenditures are gonna be? And so we have a basically a clearly defined what the actual number is and what the deficit is, and then come up with an action plan based off of that figure. Is that correct?

Already passed that. We've already hit that number. We know what the deficit number is. Mhmm. Adjusted it with the new update on the house budget. It's $3,312,000 and change off the top of my head. Yeah. But We've already worked in that.

On the rep on the expenditure side. Yes. But Yes. So we're gonna consolidate that within with these revised figures on the revenue side just so we know what that final shortfall is gonna be. You you can't use this year's numbers on next year.

Is that what you're looking for?

Well, I'm saying when we're when we're forecasting, because I know on the on the budget book we have for a local overseas projection is eleven Five. Eleven five.

Mhmm.

But knowing that this is gonna be a little bit higher, we're projected for next year. Is there is there is a thought process that we should increase that a little bit seeing what we're gonna have for this year?

Well, the problem with local receipts is there there is a baseline, a steady baseline, but I'm telling you with local receipts, I know of two building permits that equal $500,000 that we're not gonna have next year. So absolutely not. Are we moving that eleven five number next year? Uh-huh. Because that's the spike. If we get to twelve three minus five, you're at eleven eleven eight. Mhmm. That's only $300,000 above the eleven five. Mhmm. It's clearly not 13 what it was set at before. Mhmm. Yeah. I'd be comfortable maybe going up to eleven eight. I'm not going up to 12.

Mhmm. That

is not a conservative approach, when you know that there's a spike of a half $1,000,000 in just two building permits.

Well, my thought is, I mean, there's gonna be more building going on.

I I understand that, but you've got to attribute this year, right now, two building permits are a half $1,000,000 that you'll never see again. That's a spike. Mhmm. We're not building and operating budget on a spike.

No. I under I understand that, but I I think there's I based off what I'm seeing, I think there's a little bit of wiggle room to come off of that love that eleven five when we're trying to forecast for next year. Should have put

put in to be an interim Tom answer.

I'm happy what I'm doing.

When your name's on it, you can set it. My name's on it. I'm setting it.

Okay? Now Mister chair, I I I to further Nate's discussion here, I'd like to see the recast of local receipts. And by that, mean, what was included this year to get to that $05,000,000 extra? What are we looking at this coming year from the building department should probably understand that. So line by line breakdown, so we can understand if it is 11,500,000 or is it $11.8 or what's the number?

I think I'd like to see at least a recast of that number so that we at least are starting with something that's fresh built on some numbers that

are as realistic. I think I think they're fresh based on what the state said they should be. This you look at the recap sheet, it was 113. The actual number for 2026 is 113. If you look at the state's recap sheet, not eleven five. It's eleven five in the book, but the state's recap sheet's eleven three. So even if you had extra growth, the extra growth is from eleven three to eleven five. That's what it's set at for '27. I said that in my presentation. The actual recap sheet's eleven three.

I didn't add that $125,000 difference to the deficit because I did give it the benefit of doubt of some growth, a conservative estimate. And it's eleven five. It's that's what it'll be for 2027. Because we got a half million dollar spike this year does not justify raising it next year more than that $125,000 because the actual number for right now is eleven three per the state, not what it is in the budget book at $11.05 50, I think it might have been, for 2026. K. So

the projection for 2026 is $11.03 No.

From the In the budget book, in '20 in this year's budget book, on page 10 or 12, the local receipt number is 115 in the book. Yeah. The actual number on the DOR website recap sheet for 2026, right now, is 113Change. A $125,000 difference from what is set or what is shown in the budget book. So our true number for 2026 is 113Change. I said that in my first presentation.

I used to joke, so

Yep.

I'm not

So if we're gonna move off a number, we're not moving off a number in a budget book that's wrong. We're moving off a number of eleven three that the state has on the recapture encapsulation sheet. It's eleven three.

Not not what I'd like is just the detail.

Yep. That's the detail. Yeah. And I understand looking what what Nate had said that, yes, we are on pace, and I said it. We may eclipse eleven five this year. It's not eleven five. It's eleven three. We may eclipse that, but we're not setting next year's local receipt estimate on a spike. And the spike, the way it was described to me when I first looked at it was like, oh, we got all this stuff going on. We got Rexha and Indus and blah blah blah.

Well, Rexha and Indus came in on twenty twenty six, not 2027. We're not gonna see those those two two large building permits. Yes. There's a lot of building going around that's normal. You get a couple of apartment buildings. You still have houses, but the two big projects were 220 and $240,000 building permits, one time fees.

Understood. Yeah. The only point I'm trying to make is we budget our expenses with a lot of sub lines, and I think we should be looking at the revenue, all these

So my issue is this. Like, you need to build a budget. Like, you don't have free cash. When we're done at top meeting, we'll have $59,000 of free cash.

I'm not questioning all those numbers. What I'm just saying is I'd like to see a the revenues broken down the same way we do our expense.

Yeah. And

So just so we

They are.

I'd I'd like this to be able to total sub lines up. That's all.

115 is the budget number on page 10 of the budget book of local receipts. 11.5. Next year in the budget book is 13,000,000. The true number is not 115. In this book, the true number on the state DLS sheet, recap sheet, is 113. Another number that's wrong in the budget book.

Mister Jackson, not to be an item. Can I just That's right? I'm trying to so are you asking that you want a breakdown of how I'm

not asking for the number to go up that if it's not supposed to go up. I wanna see the breakdown so we can make the decision as to where it needs to be. That's all. Yeah.

I mean, you're talking Excuse me. Can I just Oh, I'm sorry, mister Jeff?

So you're looking for a breakdown of how we get to eleven three.

By by item. Right? Yeah. Yes. So we've got a number of things on local receipts. What are the sources of those for this year, then we can make a judgment as to what's maybe recurring next year or what new growth building department may expect. That's that's all I'm asking. I'm not asking to change the number. I'm just asking for the the numbers behind the numbers so we can come up with something.

Well, again, when I was asked to look at it, I'm not going to gamble away anything for the town on, like I said, in my original presentation, like, this this expectation of 13,000,000 is out of control, especially when you have an observable $1,500,000 deficit to start. You're stepping off your 1,500,000 in the hole. This, I don't know what this was, but this number, eleven five on page 10, on the local receipts, FY '26 budget of $11.05 is a wrong number by a 125. So now we're stepping off at a 1.6 and change deficit, and now I'm supposed to trust a $13,000,000 number when all the x five experts I talked to, five people who have worked on municipal budgets for their entire career, five people, all said that number was horseshit.

Is John Mister chair. I'm not questioning the numbers, and I I'm just asking for the breakdowns. That's

I'm just trying to get at. Yeah. Mean, you know, you're just simply

I'm not challenging whether it's $13,000,011.05, or whatever. I mean, I just like we do with our budgets that we see, we see it broken down by all these categories. I assume we build up the revenue local receipt budget kind of in the same fashion. There's a number of things that go under each line like you know, meals tax. Where's the where's what's the biggest sources of those? That's that's all I'm asking. I'm not asking to change any numbers at this point.

Matt has his hand up.

Yeah. One of the things too is, like, that's the challenge with forecasting is you're trying to put a best reasonable guess as to what's gonna come in. And, again, I like things on the personal level, very simple, because I'm a simple minded person, and I like to think of things very simplistically. I remember my father used to tell me, don't ever base your your budget on overtime. I'm talking about personal finances.

He goes, tailor your budget around what your base salary is, your forty hours. Get overtime. That's great. That's a bonus. Okay? But don't expect to have that as a steady stream of income because, like, overtime ebbs and flows. Sometimes it's feast, other times it's famine. If you're budgeting with overtime in mind, that's when you're gonna come up short. This is a similar thing, but on the macro level is we look at $500,000 in two building permits. That's kind of the overtime. You know? It's like, oh, hey. That's a nice little bump. Okay? But we don't

Build an operating budget on that.

Because then you get a structural deficit. Because now you're saying, oh, we're gonna have this money. Well, one of the challenges that we have with local receipts is the cannabis money. That's gone down.

So hasn't our interest on our on our accounts that we hold our money. Interest is going down. These are the things that I was considering. When I first looked at the budget the first place, I started automatic Sesame Street math. One thing is not like the other.

Anyone could look at it. It was the DLS cherry sheet, and it was a $1,500,000 error. How am I to how am I to then put all my faith in the next thing that the budget the budget is built on in this budget book, local aid, local receipts, and that levy. And two of those three were wrong. I looked at that first, local aid off by $1,500,000, And the next number you look at, you go and look at your local receipts, and I see it's eleven five for this year, but I find out it's actually eleven three according to the state of what was reported by the town, the state's record on the recap sheet, again, a public record anybody can look at.

The next number I look at is wrong as well. And then I'm supposed to trust that this number is going to be right, a million and a half dollars in in local receipt growth. And, again, local receipts can fluctuate. You have an established baseline that you build your operating budget upon because you do not want to come into a year and realize the local receipts aren't what they thought they were gonna be, and now you have to cut in the middle of a budget. You can't do that.

You need to this line here has to be conservative. Mhmm. Because and you can okay. We can gamble if you know. What do we do if we know we're getting a half $1,000,000 bump this year in two huge billing permits?

The other growth that's growing by maybe a 125 a year, that is what you're building your operating budget on, that's good. You know even if you know Bob Kraft is coming to build a soccer stadium in Middleborough, that one year, you're gonna have this huge cash infusion in a building permit. One time. You gotta you can maybe adjust a little more, but you can't build and forecast people's livelihood, people that work for the town, and build an operating budget for next year based on that number because the next year, you're not gonna have it. And now you're gonna lay people off, or you're hiring people and they think their job's secure because these numbers aren't wrong or they're overestimated, and someday they're gonna come to work like, hey.

We don't have any more money. That's what happened. No. I'm not putting my name on that.

And I think one of the things too is, like, with the local receipts. We also you know, we had migrants that were in the hotels. Okay? And my understanding is they the government was paying above and beyond.

Room tax.

Yeah. They were paying above and beyond, which the local tax or the local receipt for that room tax is gonna be inflated as well because it's a percentage.

So Oh, I think there was an issue with that that maybe they weren't paying it. I there's something I remember about that. I'm not sure. But, I'm not look. You can pay someone to come in here and put their money on the line to name a reputation, it's not me.

I know that we were gonna be taken care of. It's gonna be free cash. We need the free cash if we have all these other issues that are coming up. If we only have $59,000 at the end of town meeting this year, you're gonna need free cash next year. So that's your that's where you appreciate your, you know, the building permits, the two building permits for half $1,000,000.

That's a good thing. It's your one time money, and I and I made a comment in one of the bargaining sessions, impact bargaining. This town's addiction to one night one time money is ridiculous. It needs to be broken. You can't build budgets and play with people's livelihood on one time money.

Somebody put Yeah.

I I just wanna say two things. There's a revenue issue, which I have full faith and confidence in how you've done this. And I think as the finance committee, we have more of an impact on the expenses, on the expense side of things. We have liaison roles for that. And Alan, I'm not gonna

I hate to put you on the spot

here, but I'm going to. Back in March in March 14, I sent an email to you and I asked very specific questions about one of the largest departments and expenses in our town budget and that's DPW. And there was a series of questions.

And

one of those questions was, list every vendor, contract, change order, and invoice related to capital projects in the last three years and identify any single vendor that received more than 20% of DPW capital spend. And you said, this item may take some time to gather. Do you have a specific project in mind? I would posit that finding the answers out to those questions and listing that data and bringing that to the committee so that we can project future expenses, which we have much more impact over than the revenue side of the budget, would be far more important than questioning Joe about how he came up with specific line items. So I'm still waiting for the answers to those questions, Alan, and there are many more here.

And I'm not gonna belabor the point, but I would just really appreciate if we could focus on what we have the most control over, and that's the expense side of the budget. And that's all I have to say about that.

Mister Chair, I'll just, you know, quite quickly respond to that. First, I I think there's two parts to town finances. One is revenue. And I'm I'm not questioning Joe.

I'm not No. I I I know. I I I I'm not upset.

I'm just I'm I'm looking

to It's frustrating to deal with this. And I got people coming at me every day and I You're on my left foot, man. I'm not complaining. I Yep. Put my big boy pants on, but it's like, no. We're not doing this. As a resident, I'm not I'm not I can't

Don't discuss this more about what what what's in this year, those numbers. So so, John, we need to know that because there is the other side of the expense and I know your comment there and that needs to be addressed, but we still have to look at what all goes into building the entire budget. So I don't think we can just step aside from revenue. There's assumptions in there that allow us to target the expense side of the house. So they all come together and we get a balance at the end of the year. Right?

We're close. It's but it again, it's a big number. And I need I appreciate it. And if I can I respond to that, mister Ken? I appreciate that, you know, hey, that's what you guys are doing, and I'm not being defensive. I'm just like, I feel like we all have been put into the situation, and we're still looking like, well, how do we get here? And are we sure that's the number? Trust me. I lay in bed at night thinking, did I I check. I double check. I peer review it. I am I wrong? Am I seeing this right? Yes. You it's right.

And I had someone ask me recently. You know, there was a time when, you know, we had some issues, financial issues in the past in Middleborough, and there's always like, oh, we've got problems again. And there was, you know, certain town manager would be like, oh, I found money. So it was, you sure you didn't no. I didn't misplace a million dollars. I don't think. I've looked everywhere. I've talked to everyone. But, again, if yeah. We could what you're gonna meet it one year.

If you jack it up and you set the rate, the local receipts based on a spike year, you're just gonna have to do do this again next year. And I I I think you just wanna get it over with. You have enough, like, issues that you're gonna face with just regular increases within people's budgets due to contractual obligations. But, hopefully, if you have that continued building, you know, you're setting you have that slow growth in local receipts that you can build upon, yeah. But when you're already starting in a hole and the numbers are wrong, and I start looking at numbers, and my gut's telling me, one two three three numbers are wrong in a row.

I'm supposed to trust number number four when it's a huge number, and people are like, you're not gonna hit that number. I don't trust that number. I don't trust anything.

Mister Jay, so just so I can respond. I'm I'm not saying budget off of a of of a spike. I understand that Rexha and Indus are one time one time receivables. I understand that, but I think there's other things that are at at play.

Well, you say there there are, and I know the buildings are up. But, again, you're looking at permitting. Permitting only is in your local receipts. Also, you know, you're looking at things that I haven't talked about like till now. I know the interest rates too. The budget director said interest rates are going down. So there's less revenue coming in. So again, now is not the time to be and with every boom comes a Yeah. Bust. Yes. So if you're building, all this building's going on, yes, and there are things that are happening. That's great. Account for them when they become new growth. That's the new growth number. Your new growth number is $1,100,000.

That's all of the new building permits that now turn into property tax bills.

Mhmm.

Those things your local receipts spike. Your new growth grows and eventually turns into your levy, and your levy goes up. Mhmm. So those are good things, and that's that's where you can sustain your budget, build your budget, build back back your budget. But if you are trying to meet a budget by overestimating local receipts, if and I was told, hey, all these things are happening. Quote, Indus, Rexha. Ha. Mhmm. Guess what? They came in after I started. Those building permits. So Mhmm. They're not they're not coming in next year in '27. We already got them. Yep.

So that's what does that mean? You're not gonna realize that new growth for them until they get their first property tax bill. They paid their spike. They paid their permits. Yeah. Okay. We're counting on that to make an operating budget when what happens when in '26, they pay their permits, but then they don't pay anything in '27 and '28? You spike up in this, but your new growth doesn't go yet. Wait until they get their first property tax bill, then realize and build because that's a sustainable foundation. Just like just I was, you know,

I was I was interrupted. I just wanna make sure that I'm getting my my point fully crossed is my thought is I'm not saying that the budget off of a spike, but the the budget on the local receipts based off of what we're looking at here for '26 going into '27, is there a little bit of wiggle room to go move off of that 11.5 number? Because I can tell you, like, my as elected official, the other side of this coin is that we get to we have a spike of local receipts, we get to fall town meeting, and we have $5,000,000 in free cash, and people are gonna just look at us and say, well, did we unnecessarily cut positions because we've we've we're so conservative in trying to make sure that we are providing a balanced budget that we got rid of some positions

dollars of free cash?

Probably three years ago. Three years ago. Four years ago.

How many layoffs and how much growth do we have in the budget when we have $5,000,000 of free cash?

Well, probably not.

Not a lot. We had a stable expense of a town budget that the growth was comparable to the growth that you build a budget on.

Mhmm. But I'm I'm just just to kind of I don't wanna be a labor

Why haven't but you? Again, so that's a good thing when you have $5,000,000 in free cash.

I I agree, but my thing is between

We have $59,000 in free cash.

Well, I I understand that. I just I'm I'm just I like I said, I I as an elected official, I owe it to the employees in town and make sure that we are doing everything we can to preserve as many of these positions as possible when necessary. I empathize with them, and I think that, you know, if there's anything that we can do forecasting wise when we're creating that budget, if we could save a position or two, then I think we should explore that as a as an option. So

I hope you got that.

Mister chair, to to the chair, to to Joe and to the general committee and to the general public, bond agencies and credit rating credit rating agencies are going to be calling the town in the next few months?

We have a

currently rated bond capacity of double a plus.

Double a.

Double a. Thank you. The bond rating is akin to your credit score, your individual credit score. Mhmm. When the bond rating agencies and the credit rating agencies call Middleborough and they've already gotten wind of what's been going on with the structural deficit with millions of dollars that we don't know where it went, forensic audit looming, Senior leadership hitting the exits.

The cost of borrowing for any future project is going to go up. Mhmm. To sit around this table right now and quibble over what revenue projections are going to be plus or minus 50, 100, 200,000, $600,000 is not only shortsighted, but it misses the point of the fact that when we get whacked on our bond rating, and it's probably going to be substantial, Every dollar that we borrow and every dollar that we are currently under a debt obligation for is going to increase. Therefore, it's important to be as conservative as possible on the revenue side of the house because if we overstep it by 1p, we're gonna be whacked and nobody likes to get whacked. So I would refocus attention on the expense side of the house, be ready for a bond and credit rating agency call because it will come.

And when we get whacked, we need to be ready to get whacked. And I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that.

Can I

Mhmm? One second.

This committee is looking at the figures as hard as we can. We need to follow the numbers as they are coming to us. And no one should be saying this committee hasn't worked hard enough to put together a budget that's gonna be sustainable. And every one of us is deeply concerned with people losing their positions and jobs. So to sit here and talk about, have we done enough? We are doing enough. We're doing everything we can. So I just felt I needed to say that because that isn't what I heard a minute ago. You were next, I believe.

Yes. Thank you. Through the chair, there is a page in the budget book that I actually do believe because it comes from the DLS website, and it's in regard to the excess levy capacity. In 2026, the excess levy capacity is $1,999. Let's put that into perspective what that means.

Okay? And I'll actually read the definition. Excess levy capacity is the difference between the levy limit and the amount of real and of real and personal property taxes actually levied levied in a given year. Annually, the board of selectmen or city council must be informed of excess levy capacity, and their acknowledgment must be submitted to DOR when setting the tax rate. What that means is a dollar shy of $2,000, we are at the max of what was assessed to what the taxpayer every taxpayer in Middleborough has paid.

There's no wiggle room. We're at the max. Okay? So when we start looking at that, this is where having a prudent budget process is so key to where, hey, you know, we can't go up on taxes. We're at the we we are we are literally at the threshold. We're trying to squeeze in another ounce into a gallon jug that's already got just about a gallon of water in it. Can't do it. Can't do it. It's finite. And that's where we're at with this.

And I think it's important that everybody understands that. And to your to your comment, Bob, I agree wholeheartedly. You know, like, quite frankly, I feel like a late arrival to the party in this process. We just found out, what, two months ago that, uh-oh, there's something there's a major problem. Not even. Not even. Month and a half ago. It was a month and a half ago when Joe came and said, full stop. Houston, we have a problem. So I know, you know, and I've said this repeatedly.

I mean, it's not trying to shirk responsibility, but I can tell you right now, I'm not falling on the sword like I've been derelict in my duties as it pertains to this budget. Like, we were we were this was packaged and presented, and it's it's it's a work of fiction. It's the best way to put it.

You had your hand up. Oh, we had no other company. Oh, I'm

sorry. Good.

Alright. So you should be getting something from us. We went through what we budgeted. We had some I I think you've already heard from some of us.

Yes. I've talked to many of you. Alright. Yes. I appreciate the collaborative effort. I do. And it's frustrating, and it's terrible. I think you'd understand, Nate. I know. I empathize.

I'm I'm past that point. Like, I think couple weeks ago, I, you know, I it was difficult for me to talk about knowing I was cutting people. And now I'm at the point where I'm so angry that I was put in this position. I'm I'm gonna stand on what I believe and I looked at, and I can't trust anything in that book. I'm going with the people that I trust's opinion, my gut, looking at the numbers, and DLS.

From the DLS, the what the state says, and from the perspective of a town resident who my I pay my tax bill too, and it keeps going up. Mhmm. Never goes down. Always goes up. So but I understand what the priorities are and what people in this town want.

And they want basic services and don't wanna have to pay taxes every single year, and that's what we need to give them. And, you know, there's there's there's some issues that okay. We can we can cut that back, and we can you know, if again, growth should happen. It will happen, but you need to measure the growth as it grows. You don't anticipate it and grow the budget, and then, well, we're gonna grow in five years. Like, no. Let the growth happen and respond to it. I think that's the more conservative approach. And this is a conservative town. It always has been.

I think it still is. This is what I hear from people I talk to in the community. I'm in the community. I see people all the time. This is you know, people have frustration in looking at it and and looking at the budget book and recognize our starting points were off by your first step out the door is 1 and a half million dollars wrong. You gotta throw everything else out. And that's why I I don't trust it, and I'm gonna be conservative on the local receipts. Receipts. But I understand that, and you can't build. The problem is you say we get extra free cash next year.

That's great, but it's the spike, and you grow conservatively off that. You can't build your budget off a spike in local receipts. You can't. Can't do it. And and 1 and a half million dollar growth in one year, that's wrong. That's flat out wrong. Wait till it realizes to an actual property tax bill, then you can build on it, not on the spike because there's a gap from especially with big commercial projects. We're gonna go a couple of years before they get an occupancy permit. What you can't give them a tax bill until you get an occupancy permit. Mhmm. So that's they're not gonna build it in a year. Correct? That's right. Yeah.

And it just as it pertains to the free cash too, we still got BP. That's a huge nut.

That's why I put it

in there.

That's a huge nut. We also have health care.

And we have snow and ice this year that we need to address.

Snow and ice. So I mean We just

had a blizzard. So there's issues.

On one hand, what we're gonna realize it as a bump, it's gonna be going right

out the other My point is, how do you go from three years ago free cash at $5,000,000 to this year at 59,000? That doesn't make sense. So I'm not I'm not risking the livelihood of anybody else on putting a bigger number on that local receipt. And that's what I I I can't do it in good conscience when we put my name on. So if if we get extra cash, free cash, great.

It's it'll help out in all different places, but you can't stake people's livelihood to the up and down and the volatility of local receipts. Local receipts are volatile. The tax base is not. That's what you build your budget on. You good? Alright.

I'm Thank you.

Thanks, Thanks, guys. You guys are doing a good job. Thank you for all you do. Yeah. No.

Thanks for what you're doing, Joe.

Are there any other items that we want to discuss on anything that you have said tonight? So you heard from the town manager what he's gonna be presenting on Monday. I would like to still keep the finance committee in the loop, and the meeting doesn't have to be it can be just listening to what he says. Mhmm. And then reconvene because we call it a recess. And if there's nothing else to discuss or if something hasn't come up, we can

just Yeah.

And then keep the Thursday with the

I think

Thursday with the time manager. Yeah. And keep that one. I think that's already been posted also. Yeah. It's a

good plan.

There was one there was two other items to the we came into this on our mister Phillips.

Mhmm.

That's why I think it's very important for us to build a plan of what we're gonna do, what we're gonna expect, the information we expect to, and when we expect to get it. Mhmm. I think we have to organize ourselves ourselves that way. So we're in the loop, we know what's going on, and we can ask the questions, and we identify something early on instead of playing catch ups. So I'll just encourage you to take a look at this. This is just some notes for you, some ideas. We'll come back to it a little more strongly as we get closer to June. And so I think that speaks to we don't wanna be behind it anymore. Right.

And if I and if I can respond to that, and I believe it was John who suggested, correct me if I'm wrong, meeting quarterly, having quarterly updates from departments throughout the fiscal year

Mhmm.

To see

In the

Yeah. So I think I think that's, at the very least, a very good starting point. Because, you know, in the eleventh hour and finding finding out, like, I mean, maybe this could have been actually, I know it's not a maybe. We could have definitely found something off much earlier on and not in the eleventh hour. And perhaps we could have mitigated it. Maybe maybe the mitigation would have been a little bit easier. We could have time would have been on our side Mhmm. To take a more pragmatic approach to how to address the shortfall than a brute force

approach. No. But I understood and responded. And and that's that's great. That's what I'm back. That's why I'm

I'm Right. No. That's what that's what I'm saying. Think this is on

this plan.

And let's follow it. We can tweak it as it goes along. Change things chain, but we need to say to ourselves, this is what we're gonna do. Mhmm. And we're gonna sustain with that. Mhmm.

You and Jahan?

Yeah. I was gonna ask you to say, I think it's the plan is good. Will you be putting an agenda item together once we get through the budget crunch to workshop that because I think that would be a good idea.

Absolutely. Okay. This is not the time

to Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Get want into our thinking Yeah. Well before just handing it up Yeah. Let's get to work. We have some time to build it. We have public comment on our agenda. One okay.

No. Actually, one thing if I could.

Yep. Go

ahead. Thank you, guys. It's I know it's been hard. I've been trying to do numbers myself and my brain is, like, ready to explode. So thank you. I understand how hard it is to do financing. Thank you for showing household. Never mind

Yeah.

Town. But thanks.