Charter Review Advisory Board - Regular Meeting

Sir, thank you. Let's call the meeting to order.  Um, Mr. Zimmerman, if you want to start with our   prayer. Okay. Stand. Right. Father, we just  thank you for this day. Thank you for the   uh break in the weather as uh we realize that  that fall is here and winter's coming and then   it will be spring again as life uh springs  a new. Thank you for this group of citizens   that are so interested in our government and the  community in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Oh,   our flag got removed. So, sorry that you know  what? We got a flag on his cup right there. All right, I'll get this going. I pledge algiance  to the flag of the United States of America and   to the republic for which it stands. One nation  under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice   for all. Carlos for the safe. Brought to you  by Monster Energy. There you go. M clerk if you   call the role. Chairman Brandon Burm here. Mr.  Brandon Henderson Jansinius is online. Mr. Ron   Danzy here. Mr. JP Ferrer here. Mrs. Seal Skoon  here. Uh, chairman, you have quum. Great. Um, look like staff guidance, your recommendation.  I know Brandon can appear via Zoom, but it's my   understanding he can't vote on things via Zoom.  How does that work? That is correct, sir. He uh   Brandy can participate, ask questions, but if  there's a vote, he just would not be voting. He   can surely share his what he would vote if he were  here, right? Absolutely. Okay. It just it'll just   be 4 to zero or 3 to one or whatever. Right. Okay.  Understood. Um I guess for purposes of Brandon,  

can he hear us and see us and all that stuff?  Okay. Yes, hear you just fine. See you just   fine. Yeah. I guess we need to hear and see. Yeah,  we see you. And the volume was a little bit low,   but I think you adjusted it, didn't you?  Yeah, it'll come up as he talks. Okay,   great. All right. Um, we have meeting minutes  from last time. Those are open packages. Oh, they're not Okay, they're not in the books.  So, I have They're attached to this. Yeah,   there's attached to them. Excuse me. All  right. Okay. Any questions, comments,   concerns about the minutes? Move approved. Second. The one little thing that I saw was just that  should we put a reflection that today's October   2nd meeting was is or now being held on number  nine at 8:30 in L of 11:30. What? At the time   the Oh, it was the time the minutes were done. I  think that's the correct time. I forgot about the   timing. Thanks. Okay. All right. So, I don't who  who motion? Seconded by I say. Okay. All in favor?   I opposed. Show those minutes as approved. Um, we  can go into staff reports. And I know Jonathan,   you're going to introduce the legal cities.  Really, really briefly before that, either you   or Nevin just want to super briefly share what was  shared from us from a material perspective over   the last two weeks. Namely, the election schedule  and the sort of like city structures of a lot of   the proximate cities. Okay. Uh you got a couple  of emails from uh from Caroline and and me, but  

u and and we have copies if anybody needs them.  But the first is Caroline went through and did a   an analysis of some of the different uh kind of  neighboring cities in Bay County and also in the   areas that have strong mayor ma city manager form  of government and provided a chart with a link   to that their uh charters. So that's just good  background information and we'll work on making   sure that you can get that if in other words  if you lose your email that that you can that   it'll be available to you. Um and I had talked  to Jan about this but somewhere where you can get   access to that even if you don't have your email.  The other one had to do with election dates and   uh um the the uh Panama City and Callaway, right?  Have Panama City Beach in Callaway have changed   their election dates from April to November.  That's right. You're here. You know exactly.   Um so glad we have our supervisor of elections,  Nina, here with us today. And um and that's in   there. What just a observation and it's not  a legal issue. It's just kind of a practical   issue. Um the the when we are on the Panama City  is on the odd number of years. P Callaway and   Panama City Beach are on even years. So when they  shortened their uh term or lengthened their term,   it was just a few months. here if we shorten or  lengthen it will be like a year and a half if   the city were to do that. Um and we can talk  about it when you come to that at some date   uh in your discussions but um some things can  be done by ordinance and we don't need a charter  

uh change. Other things uh in connection to that  you may want to look at a charter. So we'll talk   about that at some future date. Awesome. Thank  you. Um, Jonathan, do we have some other staff   introductions here that I don't at least I don't  know. Yes. So, we um uh Jared Jones is assistant   city manager and I've asked him to start sitting  in on these because the likelihood of me being   able to make every single meeting uh is a  high probability. And so, uh to that end,   I just wanted him to be read in alongside myself  and Miss Smith and Mr. Zimmerman. Uh and then   um uh Carlos uh is a fellow in the military,  but he's through the uh FCCMA or ICMA, the   International City County Management Association.  He's a fellow with us through the end of the year.   Uh and then of course you know Miss Ward,  our supervisor of elections, Mr. Cow, deputy   supervisor of elections, and then Miss Smith is  one of our assistant city attorneys. So Donald,   the ever faithful IT guy. here. Well, I appreciate  you guys being here and I didn't recognize Jared   and then I don't think I've never met you before,  so I appreciate you being here, too. So, it's it's   an open forum, so I mean, comment anytime you  feel like you feel like it's appropriate. Um,   all right. So, then Jonathan, are we ready for the  League of Cities? We are. Yes, sir. as requested   by the board uh and and promised, we we got with  the Florida League of Cities to kind of provide a   presentation uh to the Charter Review Advisory  Board on kind of some of the history behind   uh you know pan uh charters uh at the city level.  Uh as an aside, there are 411 cities, towns,   and villages uh across the great state of Florida  and then 67 counties. Uh we're privileged today to   be joined by Chris Holly uh who is the director  of member services and training for the Florida   League of Cities. Uh Chris has been with the FLC  for seven years. Uh and prior to that he spent 10   years with Leyon County and their government as  over a variety of departments from management to  

budget administration and tourism. He's a graduate  of Florida State University and a lifelong Fidian   uh having lived in Naples, Libo, Shalomar and  again now in Tallahassee. Uh we're also joined by   uh Dr. uh Robert or Bob Lee. Uh he's associate  professor at Florida GF Coast University's Master   of Public Administration program where he also  serves as the MPA program coordinator. He served   as a senior executive and residence at Florida  State University and developed a graduate level   certificate in local government management as at  both FSU and FGCU as part of their MPA programs.   Before joining the academic world, he worked  for almost 30 years in city management as chief   appointed official in three different forms of  government. City manager in Naples uh and golf   court. Uh both were city council uh and a manager  form of government, assistant to the mayor in   Lauderdale, which is a strong mayor council form  of government and then director of administrative   services in Belliew, which is one of  Pennsylvania's general uh council general manager   forms of government. He served on the American  Society for Public Administration executive   committee uh for many many years. Um he is uh also  the executive director of the center for Florida   Local Government Excellence uh for 15 years where  he's done numerous trainings, webinars for the   FCCMA which again is the Florida City County  Management Association, the Florida Association   of City Clerks, and he is an instructor for the  Florida League of Cities, uh what we call the EMO,   the EMO, which is the Institute for Elected  Municipal Officials, and also the Associate of   City Clerks, their professional education academy,  and the Florida Association of Special Districts,   FASD, and the Special District Management  Certification Program. So, Dr. Lee has a a   tremendous amount of experience. Uh he's authored  and co-authored numerous articles on Florida   local government. He has a BA and an MPA from the  University of Pittsburgh and then a DPA from Nova  

Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale. So,  we are very grateful for both Dr. Lee uh and Mr.   Holly uh for their time with us today. So, at this  point, um, I will turn it over to you, gentlemen. Well, Dr. Lee, this the stage is yours. I I hope  for the committee that that you know the League   of Cities stands behind the work that you all are  doing. You know, and as as the association for all   of the different cities, towns, and villages  across our state, it's it's important because   you're all very unique, very different, and how  you provide services to your community and and   the work that you all are doing is an important  part of that process. You know, to to do this on   a somewhat regular basis. And when we do these  presentations, we're fortunate enough to have   relationships with folks like Dr. Lee um who  share their expertise and can help guide you   all to make sure that um your charter and the  structure for your government fits appropriately   the service delivery that you all expect and that  your citizens expect. So, um, we're happy to be   here and we've got from the league's perspective  a host of data which I know, um, Jonathan talked   about. Um, if you're curious about how other  municipalities operate or structures, um,   we can help pull that information for you all and  not just this morning, but if you have questions   as you work through this process, just know that  we are always available to support and make sure   that you guys have everything that you need and  you feel confident in the decisions that you're   making. So, um, again, just gratitude to Dr. Lee  and I'll be here to support in any way that I can. Okay, I guess it's up to me to start now. Um,  first of all, I I sincerely consider it an honor   to be participating with you all. Um, most every  local government has advisory committees of some  

sort. Some of them are annually appointed,  routine. um something that uh the citizens   and developers expect like planning and  zoning boards, code enforcement boards,   etc. But I think where the city council takes  extra care in their appointments is when they're   looking at a charter review uh advisory board  because as you all know, it doesn't happen very   often. Matter of fact, with Panama City, it hasn't  happened in a really long time. Um, but even in   those cities that do it routinely, it typically  will happen maybe every five or 10 years. And   it's they just take a look to make sure it's it's  current, it's up to date with state and federal   laws and any notable changes locally that should  be considered. So my point is, um, you know,   you are esteemed group. Uh I'm certain that each  member of the commission uh thought very carefully   about appointing someone to this committee that  they thought would genuinely and objectively have   the best interest of the city. Uh so I assume I  don't know any of you but you have some experience   in the city. you've built a reputation and  a brand that I think the the commissioners   feel is is going to be very helpful in terms  of assisting them and making some decisions   ultimately on this charter review process. Uh  with that said, um I purposely didn't wear a suit   jacket today. I honestly have one, but I wanted  to keep it informal. I want to keep it relatively   brief. At least my comments. I know time is your  rarest commodity and you don't just need to hear   me talk but I do want to focus on certain areas  relative to charters and also um talk about forms  

of government which is probably the crux of what  a charter should should entail. Uh and then just   open up to some Q&A just some general questions  that you all may have that I may humbly be able to   um to address based on my experience. uh and  share that with you. Um so with that said,   why don't we go to the next slide uh first slide  I should say and I want to talk a little bit about   the the US Constitution and I'm going to talk a  little bit about the state constitution. And the   reason I want to talk to them I'll talk about them  briefly with you is because that's basically what   your city charter is. It's a constitution only  it's referred to as a charter at the local level.   I want to talk a little bit about the federal and  state chart constitutions. Uh because if if you   look at them, even with with all the information  contained therein, they're still relatively brief.   Uh the US Constitution focuses on legislative  powers and the two branches of the legislation,   legislators, executive powers of the president,  judicial. It gets into states rights and roles and   then it talks about constitutional amendments  that are very explicit and those for the most   part I think as we all know focus on individual  rights uh whether it's freedom of speech right to   bear arms search and seizure etc etc they have to  do with a lot of it has to do with the the rights   of citizens of the United States and there's  really no reference to local governments therein   In next slide, we get into the state constitution.  Uh it's much larger. It's broader. And one of the   reasons is because it reiterates in some  cases some of the rights already spelled  

out at the federal level. Uh rights that states  can't overturn. Uh those are those are federal   rights that that every citizen has in the United  States. But similarly, it gets into legislative   powers and the compositions and the executive  executive level and what what's involved and   who's involved in the cabinet at the state level.  Judicial makeup talks about elections, finance,   and taxations. And not just at the state level,  but it gets into local governments. And here's   where local governments have uh requirements,  mandates, uh many cases, thousands uh in terms   of the responsibilities of local governments and  understanding various u aspects of those statutes.   But it gets into details and dictates constraints  for local governments. And local governments, I'm   talking about counties, municipalities, schools,  universities. In this case, they're state related.   Counties, uh, schools, and universities, I would  argue, are more creatures of the state because   it's very specific in in many of the dos and  don'ts in terms of, um, their responsibilities.   Municipalities are a little bit different. uh you  know there unlike the counties where the state's   divided into 67 counties as previously mentioned  uh there's about 411 cities and that that changes   411 412 for 4 410 kind of depends on whether a new  one is formed or one has been dissolved but the   municipalities uh are a little bit different uh  because they're they're they're volunt voluntary.   They're set up the the decision is typically made  by local citizens to say we want to form our own  

municipality. By the way, in Florida, when you  see the word city or town or village in Florida,   they all mean the same. It's just what the  local representatives who were forming that   that municipality wanted to call themselves. We  have cities in Florida that have under 100 people.   We have villages that have over 50,000 people.  Similarly with towns um it varies in terms of   population greatly. So unlike some states  where the nomenclature in terms of what   you call yourself in local government is dictated  in part by population size of budget etc. That's   not the case in Florida. The constitution  also has a number of miscellaneous items.   uh you know that citizens have initiated and voted  on for the most part uh such as those pertaining   to marijuana, gambling. If I recall few years  back, there was one about uh pigs in cages etc.   It gets into issues and items that typically you  wouldn't think would be part of a constitution.   But the bottom line is in this particular case  the state constitution again emphasizes rights of   people talks about the structure and it does  provide guidance and mandates for uh other   levels of government uh whether it's counties,  municipalities, schools and universities and again   it does have those citizen initiated provisions  that are incorporated therein. Next slide. local government's constitutions again referred to  as charters. Uh I already mentioned that counties   are more creatures of the state and in Florida  that's the case because if you look at the makeup  

of county governments and I'm not going to spend  much time on this but I think there there's some   relevance to understand the connectivity of of  these different local governments. The county   governments have constitutional officers from  the state, sheriff, supervisor of election,   clerk of courts, uh and and these these examples,  uh tax collector, property appraisers. I mean,   all counties have people who serve in those  capacities. Now, the only difference between   charter counties and non-charter counties,  and most of them are non-charter, the primary   difference is that they can in some cases change  the title of some of these constitutional offices,   which they've done, for example, in Broward  County. Doesn't seem to be any real real need   to do that. But Broward County is for those  who may be familiar with the history of that,   it is a little bit different in terms of  how they address certain issues politically.   uh it also gives them some some authority in  terms of taxation with utilities that that   uh isn't the case in uh non charter  counties. Uh municipal governments   as I think I've already mentioned they  the municipal governments are cities,   villages and towns they all have charters  at the local level. At the municipal level,   they all have charters. And a very important  point to emphasize is that the charter is a   legal document. It's not a guide. It's not like  this is a Rotary Club or uh even though HOA rules   and regulations or or legal documents. Sometimes  they're viewed as guides, too. And with a nod and   a wink, they they do things a little differently  than maybe what their documents provide for.  

not the case in local government. Um again,  there's thousands of different requirements   and mandates that must be complied with  and um you know, it is legally mandated   uh not only criminally, but the governor can  remove elected officials from office if they're   not doing their job in a way that conflicts with  the law. Um, another critical point is that local   charters cannot conflict with the federal  and state constitution. Uh, thus there's no   real reason to reiterate the provisions that are  provided in the state and federal constitutions.   uh and frankly even in those statutes at the state  and federal level because local governments can't   be in conflict with those requirements they can't  do uh less than what those uh those provisions   both in the constitution and the state federal  statutes provide for. So there's really really   no need to reiterate that. It may be appropriate  at times if you're talking about a topic i.e.   ethics uh and and even at the in ordinance and  and ordinance and resolution levels at the local   level. Simply referring to the state statute  as your guide may be what's most appropriate   because there can be amendments and changes there  as well and that would prevent you from having to   change routinely or amend routinely your your  your own local legislation. Prior to 1968 where   there's some major sweep sweep swe swe swe swe  swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe   swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe  swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe   swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe swe  swe swe swe swe swe swe swe sweeping changes   in the Florida constitution uh local governments  operated on what was referred to as Dylan's law.  

Now, too simply stated, what Dylan's law  provides is that um municipalities were   only permitted to provide or take steps, make  decisions that were explicitly provided for in   the constitution and the statutes provided by the  state of Florida. What was happening leading up to   this constitution was a thing called special  acts where the state legislators were having   to deal with hundreds a year of special requests  by local governments to do something that wasn't   explicitly provided in the statute and wisdom  took over here and the decision was we needed   to have more home rule powers at the local level  and which would avoid a lot of these special acts.   And basically what it provided was that local  municipalities were able to do anything, you know,   by law were allowed to provide any type of service  and make any decisions provided they weren't   restricted in the constitution. And you can see  the difference there. One is you have to only   provide what services that are explicitly allowed.  And the home rule would allow you to do services   as long as they weren't explicitly prevented  or prohibited. And that's where the home rule   uh powers came in. Now, we all know what has  happened subsequently, and I can verify this as   as a researcher with a guy named Lance Haven Smith  who was at Florida State University uh years ago.   We did a paper in 2009 that showed that from 1968  to 19 to 2008 that the state legislators imposed  

1,950 unfunded mandates on municipalities. So  yes, municipalities were were given home rule   power to do anything that wasn't prohibited  in the states by the state. But what happened   subsequently then is the state started initiating  things incorporating things in their statutes that   provided that additional restriction. So from the  standpoint of the legislators that made it easier   for them because they didn't have to deal with  all the special acts but it didn't necessarily   make it it made it easier for municipalities but  not to the extent one may think because of the   uh the number of mandates that have routinely  been imposed upon jurisdictions. Uh next slide. local charter contents. And this leads me up to  what I want to suggest to you in terms of your   charter. And I've seen a number of different  charters. And uh the biggest problem I've   seen with them is that they've self- constrained  their government in areas that they they shouldn't   be constraining them. I've even seen them to the  point where one charter uh provided that you could   only spend up to a certain amount of property  tax money on a capital improvement project and   uh unless it went to the voters for referendum.  The problem with that and you know where the   insight was lacking was that it basically  prohibited the jurisdiction from seeking   state and federal grants some which required  a three or four week turnover. So they wanted   to do a capital project and they could have had  this a state or federal grant pay three4s of it.   they were constrained because of the time that  it takes and the procedures required in going   through a referendum vote. That would be one real  glaring example where you don't want to get into  

those details. You can do that in an ordinance  or you can do that at the resolution level or   some other means um at at the commission level,  but local charters should be limited. Obviously,   a preamble and legal discretion description.  You want to know where your boundaries are of   your jurisdiction. The other key point would be  legislative branch. Talk about that. It needs   to be clear. Keep it simple. Keep it clear. It's  Einstein said, you know, keep it simple but not   simpler. In this particular case, you do want  to make sure you have the number of officials,   what their term of office is. Are they going to be  district elected or are they going to be at large   elected? I've seen some successfully that must  come from a district, but they're at but they're   elected at large. Um, you also want to include  powers and duties and and how they may be removed.   Uh, powers and duties, by the way, I would also  recommend that you keep that relatively broad.   uh because he you know I've seen cases I was  actually an expert witness on a a case where   jurisdiction was being sued because they said they  didn't have certain purchasing authority to do   certain things and the mistake the interpretation  that was made is that if it wasn't in the charter   because they listed a lot of specific explicit  responsibilities but they didn't list this one   and so what my point is don't be too specific in  terms of explicit say basically these are all the   powers that they have. You can say uh they have  powers to to you know govern the city to include   but not be limited to and then get into certain  responsibilities. um should also have uh a section  

on your executive, whatever type of executive  that is. Same thing, how they're selected,   power, duties, how they're removed. Basically,  who they report to that that dictates your   in large part your form of government is who  your CEO is going to be in your municipality.   Um, and by the way, there's a number  of charters that may have, for example,   a city manager that may have a city manager. They  claim to have a city manager form of government,   but when you look at the charter and look at the  responsibilities and who the manager reports to,   that that can vary and thus make it no longer  a council manager form of government or council   commission form of government. And I'll talk a  little bit about that here uh shortly. You also   want to talk about legal. Uh, every jurisdiction  has legal. In this case, um, attorneys, board   attorneys, municipal attorneys. Uh, I wouldn't get  too specific there either in terms of types. Uh,   for example, some have contract with firms, some  contracts individuals, some do it inhouse, uh,   have their own attorney staff person, some have  firms do it or an individual do it under contract.   I wouldn't restrict myself as to how you do  it. Your job is to see that it gets done,   but not to get into too much detail on on  what particulars are going to be involved   in where they're going to evolve from. But you  do want to talk about their responsibilities,   who they report to, how they're removed, and how  they're hired. Similarly with city clerks they   they are also a charter position that should  be included included therein uh and like the   other two selection powers duties removal. Uh I've  seen some real unusual cases where a city clerk is  

appointed by the city commission but reports  to the city manager and that or vice versa.   uh they're they're appointed by a city manager  and report they report to the city commission.   That sets sets itself up for some problems  uh when things aren't going well in in a   city due to personality changes. I think the  the authority ought to be clear. Uh and again,   I would get into a little more of that when I  talk about different forms of government. And   then there ought to be included in your charter,  I would suggest procedures for amendments.   um how you going to amend the charter? um  anything substantive will require a vote of   the citizens and um and so you know you do want  to have that procedure uh included in there so   that particularly if there's going to be a citizen  initiative how that how that occurs you know what   percentage of citizens need to sign a a statement  for example of interest just a little bit about   that that process next slide by the way I'm I'm  I'll take a number questions. Uh I'll be through   this not not too much longer, but please let's  uh think of some questions that you may have.   Want to talk about forms of government. And what  I've narrowed it down to is four different forms.   You may have heard uh other types of forms of  local government, but I would put all of them   in a hybrid form category, which we'll be talking  about uh in a bit uh here as well. Next slide. Let's talk about the commission manager form. This  is the most prevalent form of government in the   United States. Most prevalent form of government  in Florida. The form of government that I think  

100% of the jurisdictions in Florida between  population of 25,000 and 55,000 which is your   category uh uh exists. Uh it's a process that's  similar to a private corporation. You basically   have a board in this case commission and a CEO a  manager. This form of government is adaptable to   legislative variation. So it depend doesn't matter  how many elected officials you have what their   terms of offices are. uh whether you have a large  number, nine member, five member, if you have a   small number, three member, doesn't matter their  terms of office, whether they have term limited   or whether they don't have term limited. It's the  form that's most adaptable as it's separate from   the legislative branch. Professional manager  reports to all members of the commission,   not just one. So, there's really no one political  head of the city that can control policy. uh and   even controls uh what should be a professional and  objective city manager. It should be collectively   uh so if they're elected from different parts of  the the city, the whole city is then represented   terms of policy and guiding that decision relative  to who the manager is going to be. With that said,   all policy, legislative and political power will  rest with the elected commission as a whole.   Another feature about the council manager  form is it's an at will employee. It   requires majority or supermajority of  the commission to remove the person,   but they can be removed. The manager starts and  has all the the best resume and best experience,   but it just doesn't seem to be a fit. or maybe  things have changed in their life or their  

personality has changed or maybe some health  issue occurs. It's just that they don't they   don't have the emotional intelligence that you  would expect from a professional city manager.   The manager can manager can be fired at will.  It's not something that's going to take a vote   of the the citizens. It's not something that very  often the commission may may give this person   uh a due process hearing but it's it's  not something that um necessitates a   long drawn out process when things aren't  going well. Next next uh slide please. The second form of government strong mayor  commission form. Typically very large cities   have this form of government. There are a few  exceptions uh but cities like Dallas has it and   San Antonio uh number of big Charlotte number of  bigger cities do have this form of government but   you'll typically find it in a very very large  jurisdictions in this case the CEO of a city   is directed elected by the voters no government  or management experience or expertise required   to be eligible very often it's someone with a  charismatic personality and very often often   someone with some experience in maybe a different  sector, maybe the private sector, uh which in some   cases may correlate with the public sector, but in  many cases it does not correlate with the public   sector. U they would have the power to appoint  and remove department heads and all employees   typically in a pure strong mayor commission form  of government. So, if a new mayor comes in, that   means that some staff may be removed, particularly  if they were appointed by the mayor, uh say an   assistant to the mayor or administrative staff in  the mayor's office. Uh in some cases even, uh key  

department heads. Um the mayor does not report  to the commission. Here's another difference   uh from the council manager forum. uh the mayor  reports directly to the voters. Their agenda may   actually be different from that of the commission.  Even though the commissioners may pass something,   uh the how the mayor implements it, how long  the the mayor takes to implement it, what   uh comments are made during the implementation  that may be against the other commissioners is   something that's that's difficult to control by  the commission. Um, oft times, and I'm I'm sharing   this with you just from my personal experience,  but there often with an elected mayor position,   there's at least one person on the commission who  actually aspires to be the mayor the next goound,   the next election. Uh, it's just human nature.  And as a result, they don't necessarily try to   support the mayor in their duties. you may have  a very good mayor, but if you have one or two   members of the commission who aspire to get in  that seat, they don't want to make the mayor look   good necessarily. So, just something to consider  with this form of government. Uh there are some   exceptions in terms of large cities, Pensacola  and West Palm Beach. Um but typically in Florida,   you're looking at Jacksonville, Jacksonville,  Deval, actually a consolidated government   uh county and city. Uh Tampa, St. compete Orlando.  Uh those types of cities are typically the ones   that you you find as strong mayor. There's also  most of the strong mayor forms of government are   actually in the very very small jurisdictions have  100 people, 200 people. They don't have the means   to hire professional manager and it's their  service level may be very minimal. Uh it may  

be that the county is providing most of their  services. they may contract out for some other   uh needed services. Mun, it's the municipalities,  you know, they're not responsible for providing   local government services necessarily. They're  responsible for seeing that they're provided. So,   they don't necessarily have to be the provider.  They can get contract to see that it's provided.   Maybe the sheriff's providing police services  or all utilities are taken care of by the county   utility system. Uh building inspections, maybe  that's done by the county or contracted out   with some other jurisdiction, larger jurisdiction,  etc. But so, so a strong mayor in those particular   cases may not have a lot of responsibility that  they have to be um uh certain that they're taken   care of on behalf of their jurisdiction. Next  slide. The rarest form of government and by   the way uh you know strong mirror form is the  council managers many more probably 2/3 or more   uh council manager forms of government than there  are strong mayor forms. This is probably the   rarest form the commission form for good reason.  There's only a few in the state of Florida. Uh in   this particular case, believe it or not, the  commissioners serve as both legislators and   administrators. There's no central coordination,  which in Florida is right for sunshine law   violations. I'm sure you've all been briefed  on even in your particular cases. Even advisory   boards have to comply with Florida Sunshine Law.  No two members of the board can speak with each   other about an item that could potentially be  before you as an advisory board member except at   a public meeting that's been noticed. So in this  particular case, if you can picture a commission,  

each one having a title of public, one's a  public safety director, one's a finance director,   one's a public works director. They're not  supposed to talk to each other between their   monthly or bimonthly meetings except at a publicly  noticed meeting. And the reality is that just   doesn't happen. It's uh it's like a poorly run  condo association. I refer to here where there's   no expertise required and state mandates make it  very very difficult even if even people with the   best of people with the best intentions to think  that they're going to be managing a a city that   uh when they can't talk with each other about  items that could potentially be before before   them uh when they're wearing the hat of a city  commissioner or city council member. Next slide. hybrid forms of government and this would make  up kind of the rest of the types of forms of   government that exists. Um for example, a mayor  appoints the city manager with approval of the   commission or the mayor has responsibility  for just the police department only or only   supervises the city clerk. Uh it creates a very  confusing structure usually for city officials.   uh it can create some conflict among some  commissioners, the mayor, manager, city clerk   because it's not a clear chain of command. It's  also confusing to the structure for citizens who   have certain expectations for city titles.  If they come from a council manager form of   government and you have a title of city manager,  they think certain expectations go with that. Now,   similarly, if they come from a large city with a  mayor as a title and they come to a professionally   managed city, city manager of a city the size of  Panama City, they may have certain expectations  

of the mayor that are not correct. Uh but that's  something that at the local level and at the level   of this size government that's much easier to  explain uh much easier to show at your meetings   how that works and describe to people who may be  confused about how much authority a mayor has in a   council manager of formal government. A mayor has  a significant responsibility uh chairing typically   they chair the meetings of the commission all the  meetings they serve as the figure head of the city   from a political perspective. Uh they can uh state  the message representing the commissioners. There   are times when the commissioners may delegate  some responsibility to the mayor. For example,   if there's an annexation, let's say your city  wants to um annex some property in the county,   it may be that the the council designates the  mayor to negotiate with the chair of the county   commissioner on service levels along with having  the managers of those respective jurisdictions   part of that. But in that particular case, that  would be a sunshine law issue too because they   delegated their responsibility. But my point is  it's uh it can be confusing with these titles   to people and my advice is to keep it simple uh  keep it uh orally so the structure is clear to   everybody. It makes so that the expectations as  to what they're to do and is cleaner. And it also   provides that uh probably the most significant  point I'll say about forms of government is it   should be set up for when things aren't going well  as human beings creatures of emotion bristled with   prejudice and motivated by pride and vanity as  Dale Carnegi would say. Um we're human beings  

and it's in it's not if it's when uh a member of  the council is upset with another member of the   commission commission on with another member  of the commission or the mayor is upset with   someone on the commission or vice versa or  with staff. Uh the question is what form is   going to uh write the ship the best the easiest  if you have a a a rogue mayor who's elected for   two years or many cases in most cases I would  argue they're elected for four years but if if   it's two years or four years you have to wait two  to four years before you can replace that person   uh council manager former government that's  not the case uh they can be removed promptly   uh if if needed and that's just based on the  majority of what the the commission feels. So   um pros and cons but uh for your particular  case think in terms of structure what would   be the best form that's going to be most  understandable and that's going to be able   to write the ship when personalities get  involved and try to try power moves that   that us human beings end up doing because  of egos and and other reasons. Next slide. Key takeaways. Uh, city charter is a legal  document that should be limited in scope.   Charter review advisory board. The charter  review advisory board, I think that's your   title. That's what I'm calling you. May refer  the other non-charter issues in a separate   memo to the commission for future ordinance  resolution consideration. What I mean here is,   and I touched on it just very very briefly  before, you're going to listen to uh people   who are going to give you some advice as to what  should be in the charter or some issues that the   city has and it needs to be addressed and it may  very very well be a very valid issue and and and  

rightly so needs to be addressed. The question is  where should it be addressed or how should it be   addressed? Generally, it shouldn't be part of the  charter. What I would suggest to you as a charter   review advisory board is that you separate those  items that should be in the charter from those   items that shouldn't be that may come up and have  a separate memorandum. You have one recommendation   memorandum to the uh city commission in terms of  what changes should be included in the charter.   You should have another one that says, "Oh, by  the way, during our deliberations, we found some   a few other issues that we thought that were  paramount in terms of the success of our city,   and we would like the uh city commissioners to  consider those uh on your agenda in the future.   Uh you know, it seems overwhelmingly that these  are important or at least a consensus of our   group feel they are." and then just itemize what  those are. So, you're not ignoring those issues.   Uh you're just not inadvertently putting them or  inadvertently putting them into a um a charter   where they shouldn't be. Second key takeaway is  the formal government provided in the charter   should enable the city to respond best when  political conflict exists because it will exist.   It's just again that's who we are as human human  beings for two numerous reasons to mention. And   then third uh from my experience working with uh  each of these forms of government actually except   for the commission form um the commission manager  form generally provides the best foundation times   of political in times of political conflict.  It's the best structure to ensure professional   objective management. 70% of the managers have  masters of public administration. They belong  

to an international city and county managers  association that has a strong code of ethics that   they must comply with to be a member. As a matter  of fact, if they're found to be in violation   of those codes of ethics, um not only can the  commissioners obviously take their action against   the city manager, but so too with the professional  association. There's been numerous cases where not   only do they remove them from their membership  and censor them, but they will take out a local   they'll take a local ad in the regional newspaper  where the manager exists censoring the manager.   Um they take ethics very very uh as as the crux of  of the foundation of what they do as a profession.   Uh it's not a profession for everybody and uh you  have to be one who likes to do something different   every day, likes to be uh a person who's has to  make all the elected officials satisfied. Any of   those out there who say they need to make three of  the five happy are really looking at this um uh in   a way that's destined for their failure. They need  to make all five happy the best they can. and uh   they need to treat them all the same. And that's  what the structure does. That's what it promotes   in terms of the professional association. It's  also the form I would argue that's most likely   to maintain compliance with state and federal laws  because you're dealing with a professional person   who understands public personnel administration,  who understands public finance. I mean, there are   11 different fund types in the public sector. And  you have to know how each of those work. You have   to know the constraints of each of those fund  types. Uh you have to know what revenues go in,   what revenues don't, what kind of expenditures can  can evolve from those. And finance directors you  

can't always rely on. Uh finance directors  are like city managers, like attorneys,   50% of them finish in the bottom half of their  class. And so sometimes you can you can get   someone who may not be as ept. Some of them have  20 years experience. One year repeated 20 times.   Things are change every single year. And this  form of government is the one that I would argue   is most likely to help with complying of these  state and federal laws that are always changing   as well. And finally, it provides a check and  balance in terms of administration and politics.   Um again, you could have a very charismatic mayor  and actually if everyone's getting along well,   uh take a leadership role and really push an  agenda quite successfully. Um the problem is   or the misunderstanding is a mayor cannot skirt  around mandates and laws and policies, procedures   that are set up u any quicker than a than a city  manager can. they still if they do or if they try   to do so then it opens up a an ethical problem or  scandal even the smallest things you know scandals   are nothing more than an evolution of predictable  and preventable events as they say. So you want to   make sure that u you have that check and balance  the best you can from administration and and   politics terms of the day-to-day operations of  the city. It also helps the city employees know   that that's they don't have to worry about what's  going on politically. They need to worry about   doing their job uh and what's expected of them uh  from their their administrator. Uh so with that,   I think the next slide is just some Q&A. Be  happy to address any questions you may have.   I mean Dr. Lee, I really appreciate that. That's  very very helpful. I mean, my biggest question is,  

is there any sort of system where basically  the the city commission delegates all of their   authority to like an advisory board that  then kind of rules with an iron fist? Um, are you being facitious or you you  is that a serious question or what? Question. Oh, no. That they they don't  delegate. They can't delegate their authority.   They've they've they've raised their hand and gets  bested in an a charter review advisory board. That   is it's facious. Sorry, Dr. That's what I thought.  I I Well, I I paused. I I take with great deal   respect any question. So, speak freely, guys.  Um, so you emphasize that the charter is a legal   document. Is it required to be filed with the  division of department of state uh like a you know   um corporation? Yeah, I think I I'll leave up one  of the things that I always advise uh people um is   uh not to take advice from some carpet bagger,  some presenter, someone else's attorney. Uh   take it from your own attorney. So I would I  I'll defer that to your your board attorney.   But it's yeah the charter is filed with the  department of state. Okay. Just like a corporate   bylaws. I don't know if it's just like that but  it's it's over there. There there are there are   not even score more than scores of different uh  documents and filings that local governments have   to have to submit to the state and the various  departments of the state beyond just the charter.   Uh so yes there are a lot of that's a really  good question that is a responsibility and  

there's and it's timely as to how how those  filings occur. It doesn't require an annual   report like corporations, the president,  everybody's the same. You know, you have   to name all the people. Annual comprehensive  financial report. Financial. Yeah. Annual   comprehensive financial report. But what about  who are the players? They're in there. Okay.   Everything's in there. That might be interesting  for you to get a for the It's on our website,   but it's called I meant to bring it today, but um  we had a little kurfuffle this morning, so Okay.   I didn't get it up here. Yeah, that would be But  I'll bring it to the next meeting. I did send them   I did send them a link to it. You got a copy of  that. Okay, great. But I'll bring I'll bring hard   copies for anybody who would like to What was  it? I saw a very detailed report. Is that what   you're talking about? Yes. Yeah. Massive. Yeah.  Wow. Yeah. I did look through that, but um Oh, I   recommended looking at the um Yes. letter and the  management decision analysis, right? But I mean,   I kind of glanced through the rest of it and  it's a little bit overwhelming. Yes. It's very   um intense. Yeah. Because corporations have a very  simple report that just anybody could just click   on it. you know the president treasurer you know  if there's a problem you know this is the resident   agent that kind of thing right because the  document that that you attach you know it's very   cumbersome I mean the average person wouldn't be  able to I was just do you have a question Dr. Lee,   just your opinion. Sometimes commissioners get  elected with a strong manager type of government   and they don't think they have any power.  What was your opinion on how to answer that?   Well, they well, I don't know the particulars  of of what what they're referring to,  

but one of the things that happens sometimes,  I'll give you a couple scenarios, is that the   city's running so well. The uh the manager and the  commissioners uh have a good working relationship   both individually and collectively. Um and they  trust the manager and the manager trusts them.   The manager surrounds themselves with some really  good people, professional people. And when they   make submitts for agenda items, very often it's  50 votes, 50 votes, 50 votes. And people think,   well, golly, they're just a rubber stamp. They  don't see what goes on behind the scenes. Uh,   and so they think they don't have the power.  They do have the power. And there's some when   they have a good relationship. I know when I was  a city manager, I'd have commissioners that would   come to me individually and say, "Bob, this item  that's on the agenda that you're recommending,   actually, I'm going to be I I can't vote  for it. I have to vote against it." And   um and I would say 100% of the time they had  good reason for it. So, I appreciated that.   They didn't embarrass me at the meeting. rather  what I would do is u commend them for the for   their point of view and and and sometimes even  change my perspective if I felt that makes sense   but the the the citizens would see that you  know this isn't a rubber stamp that there are   uh there's good reason for what's been what's  being done but strong manager is responsible for   the day-to-day operations the commission and you  can do this in annual workshops. You could have a   workshop the commissioners could meet. Matter of  fact, I would advocate for it to talk about what   their roles are, what their roles aren't to talk  about um you know how they can do things better.  

Uh same with the manager, talk about the sunshine  law again, talk about ethics even though they may   already have had it and let the citizens see that  transparently. Let them see that training. Let   them be part of it. I also think sometimes void  on a lot of websites are the clear expectations of   what these responsibilities are. So people go to  the website they can see oh my form of government   they don't have to search for the charter in some  mini code document that has the code of ordinances   etc. I mean, that's that could be part of what's  on your website, but it should be very clear,   notably who has responsibility for what and  maybe even why and and how it's celebrated. But,   um, perceptions, you're going to be dealing with  those all the time, the and misunderstandings. And   again, many of these people may be from other  jurisdictions and they're used to seeing their   commissioners do this or that. One final point  I could tell you is that in some jurisdictions,   even though they have a clear charter, clear set  of responsibilities, a strong personality on the   commission, um can sort of take over sometimes  and and and the other members may be receptive   to that or more lz fair about the whole whole idea  of this this one commissioner or the mayor getting   their way. And what eventually evolves into is  a form of government that's different than what   the charter provides. You may even have a city  manager that's very weak from the standpoint of   wanting to make everybody happy, particularly that  strong personality and relinquish some authority   and responsibility to that strong mayor. Well,  not officially strong but strong personality.   And that's how the jurisdiction starts to  operate and that's how people think it's   actually does operate. So in those particular  cases where you now want to write the ship,  

it may be difficult because you haven't been  following your charter. So there's many many   ways that there could be a misunderstanding  in terms of who has the power in in a city.   But clearly in a council manager form the  power political otherwise rest with the   commissioners because they're the ultimate  say they could fire the manager at will. So one thing I want to add to that and that's  a really good question. You if I can restate   the question what do you do when you have a strong  manager and the elected officials don't feel like   they have the power? Um, one quick correction is  there is no strong manager form of government. You   know, you have a manager with an elected body. And  what we educate our newly elected officials on is   predominantly most people will come when they run  for office, they've come from some private sector   or experience where we ask them in the room,  have you have you worked for a business? Do   you run a business? And they are decision makers,  right? They've gotten into this position because   they know how to solve problems. They know  how to get things done. And when they own or   operate their own business or or in a management  position, when they want to get something done,   they are the loan decision maker and they take  that priority forward and they get something done.   Well, now you are one of five or seven or six. And  they may actually feel like they don't have power,   but what they have to realize is now they have to  build a consensus before anything can be done. And   that's hard to get through. And the manager's  job and the staff, if that is the the form of   government that we're discussing right now, is  just to provide information and recommendations   on what the impacts of a particular policy  position might be. And then it's up to that  

body to discuss and to build a consensus. And  that's something that that from the Florida League   of Cities perspective when we're teaching newly  elected officials, we teach them how to build that   consensus, how to debate the uh the the posture or  what the the the position of somebody is, not the   motive of their recommendation on something like  let's talk about policy. Now, you may get into   a different position if you have a different form  of government that's being discussed because that   power dynamic can shift. Um, but Bob made a couple  of really good points about strong personalities   and weak personalities because that's very  important. But again, elections can change the   dynamic of that power on a somewhat regular basis.  And that's something that I wanted to bring up at   kind of the end of Bob's presentation is think  about the decisions that you all are making and   how this will set Panama City up for the future.  And I know Bob talked about, you know, political,   you ride the waves, right? Some it's not always  rainbows and sunshine, but how will this look in   10 or 15 or 20 years, whenever the next review  is? Are you looking at the districts and the   representation of your elected officials, how that  structure will be, and will it match potentially   the growth of your community? Do you feel like  everyone is represented well? Do you think the   power dynamic? Are there the appropriate checks  and balances in place? Like those are the big,   you know, picture discussions that I hope that  your body will will consider. Just add one other   quick footnote if I may. um because it you know  they're all different personalities that that   will change but a manager it is a balance that  they have to reach where they have to you know   some commissions expect recommendations from the  manager other commissioners and what's been the  

culture is that the manager submits alternatives  but doesn't make recommendations I've seen the   the two the two extremes and and when you have  setups like that that can sort of be perceived as   uh uh you know power one way versus another.  But you also need to look at what the unintended   consequences are of the alternative where you  have maybe a strong mayor uh who is elected by the   people doesn't report to the commission. For those  commissioners who think they have less authority   now because they have to work together with other  commissioners, they now have a double challenge.   They have to work with other commissioners and  an elected mayor who doesn't report to them. So,   it's it's a um you know, not an easy thing  to do uh managing a local government. You're   the the lowest you're the last provider of  services. You can't delegate like the state   and the federal government can. Local governments  are the last provider of services. So, anyways,   I'll stop there and I don't know if that helped  with your question or if there's any followup,   be happy to to try to address it. I have I  have sort of a followup what Mr. Holly was   talking about with the power dynamic. In either  of your experience, have you seen any city charter   successfully codify sort of size of aortionment  when it comes to their elected positions? Can you clarify that when you say size  of aortionment? Aortionment in terms   of the number of voters to their commission seats and sort of looking at changing districts.  Correct. right? Where or the number of districts   without having to do it in the charter where this  would be sort of an automatic procedure that would   be set up past a certain aortionment number with  a census. Well, like no one represents more than   10,000 people for something like that. Yes. To  where you wouldn't have to amend the charter   to do that. That the city commission could  if that threshold is hit, they would begin  

a process that would create a new commission  seat. Yeah. I I wouldn't be able to guide you   with that. I have not not seen that. I understand  it's a great question but uh particularly where   there's where there's growth or rapid growth uh  in certain areas or annexation or annexations too   and and if you are one of those jurisdictions  that does annexations that that's where would   be right for consideration in terms of if you're  set up by districts. Again, there's a number of   jurisdictions that don't that they they don't have  districts. They elect at large at the local level.   The one difference between the state and federal  elections and the local elections in Florida is   that Florida uh local governments don't run  by party in terms of the local governments.   In other words, I'm not running as a Democrat.  I'm not running as a Republican. You may be,   but you're not. But that's a real good question,  but I I think that that would take something that   would involve a little more research. Thank you.  So you you touched on this and and help me with   the terminology here guys, but we have single  member districts where the district votes for   their own representative or board, right?  And then I know there's we have at large,   but is that is that the predominant way of doing  things or are there other systems where all of   the city elects the people that have to live  in that ward? Like that's the way Bay County   does it is everybody I think everybody votes  on the county commissioner, but they have to   live in that ward or district, whatever. How  does that work? The pros and cons. Well, okay,   it varies and state some of the differences and  pros and cons. Um, some jurisdictions, again,   size has a lot to do with it. You'll see typically  in in large, very large jurisdictions, they will   have uh commissioners elected by district and by  just the voters within that district. Um, and then  

what they typically would do if they're going  to do that, uh, they'll want to make sure the   con of that is that people are just representing  their district. They're not looking citywide at   what's best interest of the city. So, typically  you'll see in a charter a couple members on the   commission in those particular cases would be  elected at large. Uh, so that there's some the at   least the argument is there's some balance. What  I've seen in smaller medium-sized jurisdictions is   that they they rep well medium-sized jurisdiction  let's say the size of Panama City um is that they   would they could still have districts and you  must come from those districts but in some cases   um I've seen where they all must be elected  citywide uh as opposed to just the representative   district they are uh it it ensures that not all  the commission ers are from one part of the city,   maybe a more affluent part or part that where  there's most campaign contributions or seems   to be more networking done, etc., etc. It it  does ensure that there's some representation,   but that everybody needs to look at the the city  as a whole. Um, and then I've seen where they've   been just elected uh citywide. Uh I've seen where  they've they've had it where the top five vote   getters become or the top three if they're going  to be staggering in terms of top two uh become   the elected officials. Uh which I I don't know if  that necessarily makes sense but pros and cons.   I think you want to the pro of whatever you put  together you want to make sure that this the city   is is represented citywide. The representatives  on the commission are represented. So, I like the  

idea of districts, but you need to build in some  assurance that uh some members of the commission   uh also are elected citywide. Um so that you have  that that balance. At least that's what that that   some jurisdictions do. I don't know what the  percentages are. Uh but and sometimes and very   often it's the mayor that is is elected citywide.  Matter of fact, most always and that seems to   be the idea of being the balancing. They chair  the meeting. They have two they have four other   people who each represent a different district  and it it tends to uh the mayor is typically   the the deciding vote and that tends to give the  balance that you need of making sure everyone's   represented the areas of the city at the same time  that there's city-wide consideration in terms of   policy. One other final point is some would argue  that well this is a some gamesmanship here in that   if if we all represent our own districts, we  may not get things done unless we're willing   to support this district or this other district so  that they'll also support me. That type of thing.   Uh I I would hope that that the structure could be  set up so that um there's not so much of that, but   rather they're they're they're making decisions  based on what's best for their district and what's   best citywide. So for the other board members, I  have a ton of questions, so if I'm going too far,   like just please stop me. Um just kind of real  quick answer here. Have you seen any commissions   that elect their own mayor where like the the  the mayor is Yes. Okay. I was ju I was just   about when you were getting into that Bob I was  thinking about there are v there are a variety   of ways of how the mayor can be selected can be  voted at large it can be a rotating seat amongst  

the commissioners they can be voted on by the  commissioners they can select their own mayor it's   it's up to the body and I mean you can definitely  include that in your charter actual exercise for   me because our county has county commissioners  and then they elect their chairperson that serves   as the chair of the county and I guess that's  effectively like the mayor of the county although   it doesn't carry the same weight as being mayor of  a city. That's that's a real good question. There   are some who who have a president of council.  The mayor is completely ceremonial. Doesn't   have a vote. Uh they call weak mayor council  form commission form of government. So yeah,   that's a good question. What Okay, so we've talked  a lot about the dynamic between the commission and   the manager. What about the dynamic between the  commission and the citizens? What do you see as   far as limitations on commission authority that  needs to go to like a citizen vote whether it's   spending or decisions or or any sort of parameters  that's that works doesn't work. Uh you know I   think uh Dr. Lee you said something very early  on about a city that had some spending parameter   on advalorum that that kind of made everything  clunky. So are there things that go in charters   that are typically saying hey commissioners you  know you have this degree of authority except for   these things need to get approved by the citizens.  Yeah, I I I uh don't advocate that. Uh I think   that um if the commission is not doing their  job, you you vote them out. Uh there probably   could be. I can't think of one right off the top  of my head, but I'm sure there's there's some   other than the example I gave u that of course  that one wasn't a good one, but where they've   self- constrained themselves um in terms of maybe  debt or something. the the amount of debt that   they might want to want to get into. Um, I just  don't like the the idea of because to change it,   if it isn't working out or if it's creating all  kinds of other unintended problems, then you have  

to go to the citizens. And anytime you have to  go to the citizens to say, "Oh, by the way, we've   constrained ourselves, but we want you to give  us more power, more authority, more discretion,   it becomes difficult to to uh put that cat back  in a bag." Yeah. Yeah, I mean those are the types   of things that you put in your policies and  procedures or ordinance. I mean it's not th   those to just being nimble enough especially in  a state with natural disasters like we have just   makes things a little bit more challenging.  Okay. Um as our city is growing and this   is also kind of a question for Nevin. How does  annexation, growth, consideration of new citizens,   what board they go in, how do lines get drawn, how  does that work? Okay, every so often 10 years kind   of after you have your uh cent dissentennial  or whatever it's called, census census, right?   That's what I'm trying to say. Census, you look  and see uh what your population is by ward. and   Caroline helped us and worked with the supervisor  of elections office on this. But is the goal to   be within 95% or 5% variance? Uh 5% of the average  plus or minus. So you have to be within 10%. Each   ward needs to be within 5% of the average. So So  that's the goal. And so there was a redistricting   earlier. Was it this year or last year? 20 2122.  22. It was that long ago. Yeah. Okay. It was in   22. That's right. It was in 19 I mean 2022. 1922.  I got to wake up. Um and there was a redistricting  

to even up. So like Panama City North uh switched  from Ward uh two to W three as a result of that.   So like who makes that decision like where  those lines go? The city commission. Okay.   They draw their own lines. Yes. I mean, we have  we consult with the supervisor of elections, but   uh it's ultimately the city commission decision.  Okay. And it's important to note that, you know,   because it's the way our districts are right now  or wards, uh you know, they may be more balanced   populationwise because that includes even our  little kiddos, you know, as far as part of the   census, but they may not be balanced voter wise,  which they're really not if you look at them.   So very interesting. So where where can we look  at those? Miss Ward and her team can provide   that data for you. Yeah, but I guess it's the  the average voting age per the wards. Is that   what we're asking? Is that for eligible voter per  ward? Yeah. Yeah. We can give you active voters   per. The point I'm making though is that the the  census is not driven by voters. It's driven by   population because even our kiddos are included  in that. And when this was done in 2022, correct?   Everyone thought that there was going to be growth  in Panama City North and there is be growth is   happening in Panama City North, which will change  Ward 3. Uh, as far as the how that goes. The last   thing I got here is is it pretty typical that a  city commission I I guess who are they typically   responsible for hiring? I mean assuming you've got  a manager, administrator, whatever, they're always   going to hire that position and then you've got  clerk and attorney and that's pretty consistent   across the board. Yes. And then how about how  about does it typically funnel out from there?   Do is the is the or chart vary from there? Does  everybody roll up evenly amongst the three or or  

walk me through that? typically with clerks about  you know nearly 50% of the clerks actually report   to a city manager or mayor strong mayor but but I  would say a little more than 50% the majority uh   are report to the commission along with the city  attorney and the city manager and the org chart   from there is basically the CEO which is the city  manager so your department heads will report to   the manager and then there's just like a typical  hierarchy uh reporting to those department heads   would be mid managers and and staff. But the the  attorney typically is responsible for his or her   legal staff and the clerk is typically responsible  for his or her uh administrative staff. Typically um Mr. Chairman, I did have one question. One of  the things that we've been discussing over the   last 18 to 24 months is uh shifting our elections  from the spring of the odd year to aligning   with both the gubanatorial and the presidential  election cycles considering all 411 cities, towns,   and villages uh across our state. Do you have  any idea of where the majority of of the cities,   towns, and villages hold their elections? Are  they in the springs of either an odd or even   year or do the majority seem to align with the  you know kind of the August November gubanatorial   and presidential primaries and elections more  alignment with the state and federal stuff?   So Jonathan, we do have that data that that we can  provide, but anecdotally, I can tell you that our   largest changes in elected officials are in the  November time frame. But the second largest time   period is that spring, is that March. So some  still do hold their elections in the spring,   but there is a a significant portion of those  in November. And it would not shock you,  

there are some sprinkled throughout the  year in in different time periods. So,   it it really just depends on, you know, when their  voters are are home, you know, if they're they're   snowbirds or something like that and they come and  go. Um, but yeah, I've got a lot of that data that   I can give you and if you're interested in it by  region or by population or anything like that,   we can kind of break that down for you. So,  then actually has another question. What do   you normally see as far as um poority winds,  runoff procedures? How do people handle those?   I think that's a supervisor of election question.  I don't know if that's for some some cities are   elected on parality. Some cities you have to have  50% plus one. So yeah, I I think the chairman was   asking across the state, not specifically in  Miss Wards County of Bay County. Correct, Mr.   Chairman? Yeah. I mean, we have a system now where  you have to get 50 50% plus one and if you don't,   then we have a runoff. Whereas I've heard other  people just say, "No, plurality wins. Go from   there." I've heard other people say we're going  to basically have a almost like a a nonpartisan   primary and then whoever's in the top two. If  there's only two, it's only two, but if who's   ever in the top two, then they get elected at  whatever that election date is. I'm just kind   of curious what the sample across the state looks  like. Yeah, I'm going to defer, Chris, in terms of   the statistics on that. You're absolutely right.  It does vary. I think that's the most probably the   most significant part of what I could contribute  is it does vary. um the jurisdictions that I've   worked with and been associated with, it's been  the 50 plus one, but it does vary. Yeah. And   I'm not I don't have an answer for you on that.  That's that's not a level of detail that we've   gotten into with our members, but I don't know if  that would be someone that we would have to survey   supervisor of elections across the state or we'd  have to survey clerks across the state to look   at their charters or get into some uni code. But  it's a good question. Just to add a little bit,  

um, currently four of our cities in Bay County  have runoffs and then the other three don't. So,   Brandon, what do you got? I know you have good  stuff. Yeah, I was just about to ask um if any   of you guys got a chance to participate, get  out and engage citizens or voters on any of this   stuff. Um, I did I did a poll on social media and  I interviewed about 50 people myself specifically   on the commission structure. So, I'll share with  you. I had 61 um participants in the Facebook poll   um all local Facebook groups said and 75%  of them asked that we keep the four ward   commission structure with the one at large mayor.  Um one person said something I know Brandon you   had mentioned about the atlarge where um the the  mayor's chosen via the commissioners. One person   voted for that. The second highest poll was an all  atlarge commissioner. So, every voter elects all   seats, including the mo the mayors. Um, and that  one engaged a lot of different discussions. Um,   Ward 2 specifically said, "We don't want  to do that. We don't feel that we would get   fair representation for our ward. Um, we feel  that it would be a popularity contest." Um,   which Brandon, let's do you have any questions  for uh Dr. Lee or Mr. Holly? No questions. Yeah,   very informative. I definitely appreciated  their their engagement, their presentation. Cecilia, what you got? I'm just trying to absorb  everything. It's been very very helpful. Well,   okay. You serve on what would I mean effectively  a a strong mayor board, right? I mean,   that's that's the if you're going to define the  school board or something. So, I'm kind of curious   if you have anything else for that. We'll discuss  your feelings at some point but or not some point  

but shortly here but anything else for them? Yeah,  I'm good JP. Thank you again. Anything from staff? Um guys, I appreciate the time that y'all  put into preparing this. I don't know if   this was a bespoke presentation for us,  but it was incredibly informative and got   us up to speed very quickly on some pretty  interesting concepts. And um thank you guys   for attending. Y thank you. Good luck. Keep  up the good work. Thanks for your service   too to the city. Great. Um, Mr. Chairman,  may we have like a 5m minute break? Yeah,   of course. Let's do that. Yeah, we'll uh come  back in. Got some restrooms down that hallway. neurology needs to be um I got your  questions Cecil staff anything else   reportwise you had asked them um on  our behalf to give us some examples   or ideas about how to do outreach I did  I think okay yeah um any feedback on that Jonathan or maybe Jan was going to look at it I  don't know I don't know where she go Yeah, it was   in the It wasn't. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry. What  was the question again? We had talked a little   bit about doing and you had some really good ideas  off the top of your head like having two or three   uh planned outreach events to with the citizens  so that they would give us their inputs and also,   you know, be more willing to vote for whatever  we come up with if they participate. And so we   were going into the weeds and and then the request  was to have staff come back to us with some ideas  

proposals. Right. So all I would I mean I think  it's premature to have that right now. I think   you guys are still trying to figure out things  but it's very simple. We just need to plan like   a town hall very similar to what we do on Saturday  morning. Uh that's the very best way to do it. We   can host it in the rotunda and um and really  it's just a matter of scheduling it honestly.   So, I don't know if you maybe look to do the  first one in November after you uh maybe have   tackled a few of the chapters or sections. Uh  and then we look at maybe doing one in December   and then maybe one in January. We're talking  about like a town hall with the public. So,   yeah, I think that's that's just that's just  a matter of y'all saying we're ready to do it   and we can get it scheduled in the New York  minute. The commission does their town hall   meetings once a month on Saturday morning  in the rotunda. We have one this Saturday. And you have it so people can participate  digitally. Oh, no. No. They we we uh we stream   it live. Um and uh but folks can folks can,  you know, come and do it. And we we put it we   uh we we stream it. I don't know that we do we  record it, Donald. Well, it's recorded to YouTube   when it's streamed. So, yes, it's streamed. So,  we record it and post it. But um but yeah, no,   it's it's not a it's it's in the rotunda, so it's  not really in a room like this. It's very open.   It's right off the first floor. You just come  in and so people engage at that point. So yeah,   one of my concerns is some people really don't  have transportation or they're disabled. They're   not able to move around. Some of my friends,  we can't barely get them out of the house,   you know, to come and visit because they're  just elderly and they just want to be there,   but they're they're very interested in what's  going on. So, can we have it just like Brandon's   participating now? You know, just make it so  people can participate. So, what I would say is,  

I mean, it's the the town hall really is to hear  feedback. It's it's um it's not really a matter   of the town hall is not to let people know what's  going on. It's the opposite. It's it's for them   to raise. My meeting the first Monday of every  month, the the Monday morning with the manager,   that's when I kind of share everything that's  going on. And that is interactive just like   this. So people people can people can get on  there and ask questions. I usually have people   in the room and people online and they can ask  questions about specifically what's going on   and what we're doing and why we're doing things  the way we're doing and what's and what's coming   around the corner. The town hall is just really to  give ideas to the commission. That's the purpose   of and I would think it'd be very similar with  y'all in the sense that you're wanting feedback   uh from them. So, but that other type of meeting  I guess is logistically possible. I mean, if   it's here, it's here like in if when room 10 gets  rebuilt, it can be done down there. Correct. Can   it not be virtual only? You can't just do a Zoom  meeting announcement and everybody's in front of   their computers. I think we should do I think we  should do a hybrid. Yeah. I just think, you know,   people like for us getting together, we could all  just be meeting distantly, but there's something   about seeing people's face, you know, you really  have a sense of people listening or not listening.   They're on their phone, you know, whatever.  You pick up a lot more when you're physically   together. And I would want that for the citizens.  Um I I would even like to consider uh I like the   idea of people coming into the space of the city.  It's you know beautiful building. It's been spent   a lot of money renovating making it nice and  I know I've enjoyed coming to events um in the  

rotunda different events. And so I think we should  do that, but I think we should also possibly   consider do, you know, going into the community,  finding a a space that's not just in the city. My feelings. Yeah, I mean 100%. And so why  don't let's decide if we want to pull the   trigger on that at the end of the meeting. Okay.  And then if start somewhere, right? You should   start here. It's easier. and then think a little  bit about it going into the community. Yeah. So,   but but I'll just be clear. I mean, you're kind  of doing that with this meeting now. This this   link was published so anybody could be watching  this meeting right now, not just Mr. Henderson.   And there's a public comment section. It's  it's the next item on the agenda. And so,   you're kind of doing that right now. And so,  um, if if they're able to make another, I mean,   this kind of the the public comment section in  this format is kind of like a virtual town hall   because anybody and anybody, someone from Alaska  could be on this call right now and give y'all   their opinion on this process during audience  participation. They could call in today. Yeah.   Right now. Yeah. But I guess what I'm interested  in reaching out to people who don't normally look   at the notices, don't even know where to look for  a notice. You know, I'm trying to broaden the type   of person who works and deals with this. You know  what I mean? It's like the notice that that was   published. There are certain people that know to  look for that notice. So, I'm looking for a situ.   This is what I my vision is for the city for us to  do more advertisement like put it on the radio and   you know like um if we have Facebook which I'm not  Facebook literate. I don't do any of that stuff,   but social media, you know, some kind of  thing where it's a little bit more, you know,  

publicized. So, so this is so this is put on  social media, this put on Facebook, this is put on   our email newsletter, this is put on text alert, I  believe website, uh Bay county's notice page. So,   if if y'all said, Jonathan, we want to do another  uh we want to do a virtual workshop, which is just   or a virtual town hall. um where no agenda just  that I mean we would notice it all the same way.   So right the notice the notice wouldn't change  um we don't have any budget to put anything on   the radio that costs money um and the commission  has not granted the charter review advisory board   any budget to work with. So um I don't know how  we would how we could get around that. I mean,   I suppose we could ask the commission or we could  appeal to the radio stations for like public   service announcement. I will tell you like what  we're doing on social media, we gain more traction   with that than we would with PSAs from the radio  stations and the TVs. Yeah. I mean, but again,   our our we've seen our social media be much more  effective. Um the uh I would say you know the   there is a a physical limitation of what we can do  at some of the locations outside of city hall like   your your camera equipment your your audiovisisual  is going to be a little bit more difficult. It's   it'll be microphones and webcams versus you know  the the cameras and and audio video stuff you   have available here. Um, but to that end, I mean,  there's a couple of fire stations, there's some   clubous, there's some other things that we can we  can do, but it will take it'll take a a heavy lift   from our IT support team. Um, just not that it's  not possible. I just want you to know. Um, but   yeah, as far as publicizing, um, we cast a pretty  wide net. We really do. Um, the text alerts,   everybody that's got a water account gets them.  So, if you've got your cell phone number listed   on your water account, um you're you're getting  text alerts for for this, for boil water notices,  

for a variety of things. So, that's about  17,000 accounts that that are getting those. Okay. Well, we could we could advertise the  meetings on the water utility bills, the dates   of the these meetings because they're already  set. So, they're already getting mailed out,   right? Yeah, things like that. And you know,  just the communication to different community   organizations. I I don't know, Carolina is still  with the women's club, but like the women's club,   you know, there's one on the beach and there's  one right in the cove. things like that, you know,   Rotary. Yeah, I know you're It sounds like  you're doing a really good job, but you still,   my desire is to still like go beyond the standard  thing and just sort of tweak the interest of a   lot of people. And I know that there are a  lot of uh organizations, you know, Kowanas,   Optimus Club, different organizations  where people are generally, you know,   paying attention to what's happening around, but  they may not know to look for these things. So   that's what I'm talking about. Churches, different  groups. And we also did get uh the email address   um specific for the charter review advisory board.  Um, I have requested that be dispersed by the um,   public information officer, the city's public.  I don't know where she is with that. I haven't   followed up. Um, but we could also add that to the  community announcements at commission meetings.   Maybe put that on the utility bills as well. The  Well, I mean, I think of an easy way to do this.   Would you be open to sounds like partnering up  with the commission to do this at a town hall is   a pretty light lift. So if if maybe not you you  said you have on this Saturday. I I don't know   that I would partner. I mean I would I don't know  if we I don't know how conflating two boards what  

would if that would be an issue, Miss Smith or Mr.  Zimmerman, but I would do I mean it would be up to   the you know to the mayor and the commissioners. I  would suggest we do a separate one. Yeah, I think   a a separate one is probably a good idea too. But  I was also thinking we could You were saying that   we don't normally take questions. We're usually  telling people what's going on in the forum,   but No, no, no. I'm sorry. The opposite. So, at  the at a town hall, that is for the citizens. So,   this Saturday morning, the five elected  officials, we sit down with me and they're like,   "What do y'all want to tell us and ask us?" the  city manager Monday morning with the manager I   it's both I give an update of everything that's  going on predominantly for that month and then at   the end I open it up to questions for both people  online um and in the room I think the secondary   format would be better because when you talk to  people about the charter they're kind of going   they know it's important but they don't know what  it is I mean I myself had looked at charters for   various reasons over the last few years but I'm  getting a much better generalized foundational   understanding, you know, with the lecture we had  this morning and just conversation. So, I'm like,   hey, I'm a lawyer and I've been dealing with a  little bit and I still feel felt like, oh, let me   see what's happening. So, I'm extrapolating to the  person who's a non- lawyer busy with their lives.   I feel like it's incumbent upon us to educate a  little bit and then recede. Well, there's going to   be a little bit of trial and error, right? I mean  maybe some meetings you're going to be very well   attended some some possibly you're not that's why  the idea of doing something that's low cost or no   cost you know just time would you prefer to do it  on the weekend or a week day or from your meeting  

in real quick day I have a quick idea so can  you guys hear me yes all right um so this board   being so new a lot of people do not know what the  charter is um I don't think that the participation   that we have in our brains is realistic currently  until we get some substance beneath the board.   So Brandon, you'd mentioned partnering, maybe not  partnering, but having it right after a town hall,   a city commission town hall or right after a  city manager meet the city manager meeting. I   think if we try to do something standalone, we are  going to use potentially a lot of city resources.   every time we ask it to facilitate or move or do  something like we are expending city resources to   do so. And if if we're doing it for three people  or four people to show up, should we entertain   partnering or putting this right after if if the  town hall on a Saturday is at 10:00, we meet at   11:00. Um we is there any way I I just don't think  it's realistic that we're going to have 15 or 20   people that are going to show up to the first  one or the second one? Does that make sense? Yep.   A lot of people don't know what the charter is  and and Jonathan, there has been no social media   advertising for this meeting on the city Facebook  page. Um if there was, I would have been the first   person to share it. Um if we can have an event, we  can start to create some engagement behind that,   but we're a new committee to breathe life into  saying that we're going to have the same substance   that the city commission town hall is going to  have. It's I don't think it's realistic. No,   I knew it was going to be a staggered, you know,  learning process, but that's why Brandon asked   for a report from you all to help us. And we're  sort of doing it now, fleshing it out because we   got to plan it and we got to think about how we  want to do it even though we're not ready right  

now. I fully agree. We're just trying to figure  out, can we, you know, get off the tricycle and   get on a bike, you We're trying to grow ourselves,  but I think we need to talk about planning it so   we can talk about what support we need and what's  one idea too is for Brandon to join me Monday as   the chairman and and maybe that's part of the  Monday morning with the manager. That would   be a great idea. It's a great way to piggyback.  So I I just think there's I'm use the trial and   error thing and my experiences because I always  go back to my association stuff is that we would   do these things called board certification classes  where every director that gets elected has to sit   for a 4-hour class and I played with do we do  them on Mondays or Saturdays or do them virtual   whatever and we finally got it home down but it  wasn't until we kind of went through some of the   minations of it that we realized how we would  get participation. So there's I don't mean this   in a bad way. I have a very low bar for the first  meeting because we don't know what we don't know,   right? And so that's why I'm saying I think  maybe what your suggestion is um approach the   the commissioners or approach Allen about can we  piggyback? Can we do it at the end of it? I don't   know how long those town hall things are. If it  works, great. If it if it's clunky, we'll stop   doing it. I mean, just give ourselves a little bit  of grace here to see how we can get at least give   citizens the opportunity to participate whether  they take us up on it or not. But, you know,   at least give them the the chance to do it. So, I  guess that the takeaway is yes, if you want me to   come or anybody to your manager, what's it called?  Meeting with manager. It's Monday morning with the   manager. It's the first Monday of every month. Um,  and it's at 8:30. It's it's in this room. It used   to be in room 10, but it's moved to this room  because of the construction downstairs. And um,   you know, it's typically the same group of people,  which you know, which is great. So, but you know,   I've if nowadays with everything that we have  going on, and I'm always happy to to do more,  

but if if you truly want to know what's going  on in in your city or county in 2025, it's very   easy to find that out. So, we'll start with that.  then um ask whoever you think is appropriate on   partnering, piggybacking, doing it after whatever  the the town hall meetings are. I I I've never   attended one. I don't know how how long do they  go? Usually I keep it under an hour. Okay. Yeah,   pretty quick. What time does it nine o'clock?  8:30. Sorry. The town halls or your things? Oh,   the town halls are anywhere from 60 to 90 minutes.  It can be it really varies. Um it depends on   because again the so the virtual workshop is is  for the commissioners to chitchat. The town hall   is specifically for the public to bring their  items to myself and the elected officials.   And in addition and then the um uh and then the  Monday morning with the manager is kind of both.   I provide an update on everything that's going  on that for the month ahead and then I answer   any questions that they have. So I my thinking  is because we're acknowledging that people don't   know about what the charter is. I don't think it's  realistic for us to say give us your ideas for the   charter. I think we need to do some education with  the people and it'll be a hybrid. It won't just be   this is your chance to talk to me about what duh.  You know what I mean? So we need to educate them   about the charter and perhaps you know each one a  little piece of education about the charter. You   know we could do an overall thing for five  minutes and then we want to focus on these   elements to discuss and then have tell them what  we're thinking about or some uh plan thing and   then listen to feedback. I have a different take  alto together as I usually do. I don't believe  

you'll get any traction from any citizen until we  come out with our recommendations. I don't think   you was way too mature to educate the community  on what we're still getting educated on is just a   waste of time in my opinion. I don't think you're  going to get any traction from the citizens until   we have a book of of recommendations to go  to the charter. Then the education starts   because they're going to have to be voting on  it. That's when it starts. And I can I may be   the only one in the room that feels that way, but  just from experience, you're not going to get any   traction. I agree. Um I I definitely am persuaded  by what you said because when you have something,   it's always easier to criticize or pull apart  something that's built. So, I get that. But I   still think it's a great idea to sort of soften  up the community and let them know this is going   on. And I think your participation, you know, at  the uh Monday morning meetings would be good. We   don't want to always put it on you. We can Yeah.  I mean, I'm happy to go as the first one to go,   but believe me, else gobility could be shared.  I mean, however you want to do it. If you're   comfortable going to all of them, that's fine. But  if you say I'm out of town, then any one of us,   you know, who's available could go and fill that  role. It's just softening them up and giving them   a heads up. I just really, really believe in  that. And you know, frankly, my experience   has been with my league experience, the more you  tell citizens ahead of time something's happening,   then when we have the document, they're like, "Oh,  yeah. I I heard about that." And they're not just   like flatfooted going, "What the hell?" You know,  it's this. It certainly eliminates an excuse to   to to your point. Yeah. No, it just basically  practically you're you're gonna you're gonna   get more once you get a book. Oh, absolutely.  I I think you're right on point with that. and   and that could help, you know, uh I just wanted to  talk about it. I wasn't being specific about when  

to start. I agree with you, but I just wanted  to talk about I wanted that kind of out. Yeah,   let's do this. So, I'll be there with you on  Monday and just just make myself available if   anybody's got charterish type comments. It's  certainly not to usurp what the purpose of   your meeting is like at the commission meetings.  That's fine. And then um let's talk with Allan   about some way to work together on the a Saturday  town hall meeting. Maybe it doesn't come together   this Saturday or maybe it does. I don't know. And  let's at least do that and give the citizenship an   opportunity to participate and then we can see if  it's working, if it's not working and then kind of   get some feedback at the next meeting and then go  from there. Sounds good. All right. And and then   let's make sure it does get on Facebook because  Brandon just said it once. Yeah. I I mean an an   event maybe not have been created but I know this  event amongst other things have has been promoted.   I just don't know in what context. Yeah. We don't  I think just elevates the promotion so that it's   hits people on the nose when they click. You  don't have to look for it. It's right there in   your face. You know meeting that kind of thing.  All right. Um we'll get on to I guess number   seven. Audience participation. Do we have We don't  have anybody. Do we? Donald is anyone online other   than Mr. Anderson. No, sorry. You were seeing  everybody around. Yeah. All right. Um, as far as   discussion items, which I think nine and 10 kind  of roll into that, I'd love to We have two things   going on here. Number one is I doubt we're going  to walk out with any sort of decisions today on   any of this type of stuff just based on how long  we've been here. As I've gone through meetings,   I usually find that we if we're not searching for  an actual outcome that we set a time certain. So,   are we good kind of like let's debate this as long  as we need to with some degree of flexibility, but   shoot for wrapping up at 11:30? Cuz I'm looking  at it, it's like 5 till 11 right now. Is that   fair? Okay. Cuz otherwise you can just debate this  thing in a perpetuity. Um before we get into that,   uh Cecil asked a great question. I think we  have a general idea, but can can staff just  

kind of crystallize for us like what is our  current system? How does it work? Who's doing   what? Like what what's our what's the status quo  based on the stuff that what uh Dr. Lee, you know,   Um, who were a city manager form of government?  Commission manager. Commission that. Sorry.   Commission management. I was looking at him.  Commission management form of government, which   means that you have a manager that executes policy  that's determined by the city commission. Uh,   it's not a strong mayor um form. The uh the the uh  charter sets out how obviously how it works, but   there's also a prohibition for the commissioners  to deal with employees directly. In other words,   there are three employees that they have or three  individuals they hire. City clerk, city attorney,   city manager. all of the employees that work  under the city manager or any of these three   report to those three individuals and not to  the city commission. So the city commission by   ordinance is is not to jump over the city  manager in other words and then direct or   uh the term is deal but uh get involved with uh  operations uh underneath that. So generally they   they set policy at city commission and then uh  the three of us uh work to uh assist in giving   them information so they can set policy and then  in particular city manager, city clerk, they go   out and execute the policy that's uh set. So who  does the city manager and city clerk and the city   attorney answer to? Uh the city commission. So  the city as a body. Yeah. As a body. Not one as in  

other words we the who's my client as the attorney  the city commission not any one individual city   commissioner and under my contract for example  I work for the city commission I work with   uh the city clerk and the city manager and and  and those underneath and the city manager same   and the city clerk the same. So they they're  the only three contracted employees. So they   all all three of them have an individual contract  with the city commission. Um terms of employment,   hours to work, performance metrics, all that kind  of stuff's there. And every other city employee,   myself included, is an at will employee at the  discretion of one of these two. Um and then   uh Jonathan by charter serves as the personnel  director. So he's uh although he's certainly   going to take Jan's recommendation on on hiring  and firing her side of staff, um she effectively   by charter becomes a department head when dealing  with HR issues to a degree because he's final his   final signature on on those u personnel actions.  Um yeah, and so the right now the city commission   has the as a whole not only one commissioner  which I think is good. would one person,   you know, taking over. But the city commission as  a whole uh would evaluate the three employees and   uh conceivably has disciplinary and termination  ability and they're the ones that hire also.   Correct. So it starts there, put them in place. Um  then the commission does the policy and says this   is what we want done and then that team does the  execution and reports back to the commission and  

sort of a free flow back and forth. This is the  policy you laid out. This is the procedures we   came up with to execute that policy and if we need  to tweak here and there then that's just done.   So is it but just an example that u using my  office as the example the policy we'd like to   enter into a contract uh I'll use St. Andrews  Marina, long-term contract, 30 years long. Uh,   you know, the city doesn't want to pay for much.  The city, whatever the terms are. Mhm. The three   of us, we go off and come back with a contract  that meets the policy. And then there's a vote   to enter into it. And obviously, only the city  commission can actually enter into a contract   like that, small contracts under their purchasing  authority. Each for example, the city manager has   purchasing authority. He can uh spend or enter  into contracts or make purchases up to $100,000.   That but that is not in the charter. That is by  action of the city commission. The county manager   has a much larger purchasing authority. So that's  that's how it's implemented. Thank you. So, our   personnel uh policies, our purchasing policies,  all of those are composed by staff and then those   are sent to commission for adoption. So, they they  adopt those those items as well and a variety of   other policies that we and I guess some of  this delineation could be in the ordinances. It is. So my understanding is the  charter defines the structure. The   individual Jonathan for example, city manager  defines how he executes and how he leads his   team. So that could change city manager to city  manager. Whether there's a scorecard approach,  

whether there's an attab boy, you're  doing a great job, you're doing a bad job,   you're doing a good job. There's no clear  measurables, but the charter just simply   defines who is accountable. It doesn't  define responsibility or have a clear   metric for accountability. Yeah, that would be  in the the employment contract, correct? Yeah,   there's I mean I have an employee contract and  it's spelled out what the expectations are. But   that could change with each new hire. The city  commission wanted to hire a new city manager,   then the employment contract should shift and the  city is no longer held accountable or responsible.   The accountability and responsibility then shifts  based off of each new hire experience. There's no   clear standard for what does great look like.  That greatness can shift from person to person based on their individual  contract. That would be true. Yes. And so how would you all say the present uh  format is working? I haven't heard anything bad,   you know, from what's been going on, but how what  is your everyone's experience? I mean, there's,   you know, I mean, no organization is perfect  to, you know, Dr. Lee's earlier, you know,   u presentation. Um, you know, it my my my  personal approach to this is that when I   was interviewed and hired that, you know, I was  not going to function like a six commissioner.   Uh my belief is that I'm the executor of the will  of the commission. Uh that being said, because we   have ward elections, you know, each of our four  commissioners feel very, you know, committed to   and working on behalf of their, you know, their  electorate of their particular wards one through   four. So, you know, what I tell them is look  there there are some things that that you know,  

we can do, you know, just you and me working on an  issue in your particular ward. you know, smaller   projects, efforts, issues that pop up, but then  there's other things I'm like, okay, you know,   we we've done X, Y, and Z, but at this point in  order to move forward or or even right out of the   gate on a request, this is something that's going  to have to go to the whole commission. Uh and and   so, you know, and and you know, we we do have,  you know, you realize in the last four years, our   entire commission has changed over. zone. And in  2023, for the first time, I believe in the city's   history, three of the five changed. We've had  a mayor and a commissioner or two commissioners   change, but in 2023, three of the five changed.  One chose not to seek re-election and and two   incumbents were defeated. And so that that's a big  change. So now you look at, you know, basically   um you know, one of our elected officials has  been in for four years. um one has been in for   sorry two have been in for two just over two years  and then two have been in for a couple of months   or a few months and so um but you know they all  have different backgrounds uh not only elected   by different wards but you know they they kind of  have different perspectives different professional   backgrounds and and yeah I mean they uh some of  them have you know come from the private sector   and you know trying to be gracious here and  and and you know it's different when you're   one of five and and everything. So, it's uh um  I I think it's going, you know, for the most   part very well. I'm not going to say it's perfect  and that we're batting a thousand. I don't think   any organization, you know, um, run by humans is  going to be perfect, but and we're we're in the   middle of a very significant time of transition  and challenges in our city following, you know,  

Hurricane Michael, Hurricane Sally on top of 40  to 50 years of our city not really making the   proper investments or in our in our underground  infrastructure. So, all those chickens are kind of   coming home to roots. We we need a billion dollars  worth of work in our city and you know we're   pretty much getting about half of that thanks to  our federal partners, our state partners and then   our our resources here locally. So, and then to  put a bow on the structure. So, and then you've   got a mayor that's elected at large two years at  a time. Correct. And they're one vote of five on   the commission. Correct. No veto authority.  Correct. Ceremonial powers as far as showing   up for the city, signing documents and things like  that. once the commission approves it. Correct. Um   and then what they chair the meetings and then  moderate that's the moderate they moderate the   meetings. Um I moderate the CRA meeting as  the executive director but any when the it's   the city commission it is the mayor and and the  difference is our four commissioners are elected   for four-year terms. So the mayor is in a sense  almost perpetually running for office almost like   a US representative in Congress where you know you  kind of win re-election you join start your you   start running again after the after the holidays.  So that is a unique challenge for a two-year term   that is only um for the mayor. Do you think that  makes sense? We're going to debate that. Yeah. In   ter in terms of the moderation of the meetings, is  there any additional power? Is it just literally   the housekeeping of doing it so anyone can place  agenda items on the commission meetings? There's   no limitation when it comes the clerk controls the  final agenda. Okay. Yeah, there's no limitations.   So any commissioner or any there's a deadline but  that's it but that's it. It's the same for every   but there's no additional powers which come with  being the moderator chair of the commission. Okay.   Not in my opinion. I don't The only restriction  the only restriction is they can't the mayor  

can't make a motion for an item unless but he can  but he can second it but unless he or she passes.   But there's no additional powers come with being  the chair or the head of the Well, he can close   off he can close off debate, you know. um to  some degree control following Robert's rules,   right? But there is that what you're saying? Yeah,  it's more or less Robert's rules. I to answer your   question from my perspective uh as far as does  it work or not, I find it very comfortable coming   from being county attorney for 20ome years and  then being city attorney. When I this dates me,   but when I first was county attorney, I don't  believe they had gone to a manager form of   government and different commissioners were  giving. I'm the commissioner over the roads and   I'm the commissioner over different departments.  And when I came back in 1979 80, they were just   getting out of that. And I was there when they  had their first professional county. And we and   and we adopted a county manager ordinance um which  which is very similar to what we have here but the   city manager form that's in the charter there. The  county did it by ordinance because they're a non   Bay County is a non-chartered county. So then so  the the clerk uh is was separate from the board   which is very similar. Well the clerk was separate  from the well yeah they they were separate from   the city manage the county manager and of course  the county attorney because the clerk the exeicial   clerk is here it's Mr. Kinsaw and uh and it and  that's the way it's been. So there's a separation   I guess of power between the clerk as far as the  city manager and the city attorney. So that's  

that was also familiar. The chairman had all the  same powers as a mayor has as far as running the   meetings. It typically was rotated every year and  there would be a new chairman. But it's it's very   similar to what Panama City has. So whether it's  the perfect system, I just know it was it I was   kind of relieved at how similar it was to what we  have in bed county. So I really want to get into   discussion amongst the advisory board here as soon  as practical. The last thing, Miss Ward, can I   call you Nina? Sure. Okay. Um are you going to be  able to attend our meetings? And the reason why I   ask is I this might be an opportunity to ask Nina  questions specifically about I mean I know you've   had um I'm sorry Tim's fine. Okay. He's been  here and been very helpful. I just didn't know if   there's anything we want to ask Nina knowing that  we've got her attention about election procedures   or anything like that. Yeah. Do do you think what  is your perspective on the city thinking about   uh aligning with the November election? Um so as  we talked about before, we've got two cities that   already shifted their dates. um it's going to be  a little bit more difficult for Panama City if   you keep the ward specific voting along with the  runoff. So that's something that Panama City Beach   and Callaway don't do. So it was very easy to  shift them. Um Panama City with the word specific   um I think there's only one other is there  any No, there's no other city that does word   specific voting. only Panama City um Springfield  and Panama City Beach have residence requirements   for the candidates to live in their wards, but  the citizens vote at large on all of them. So,   that might be an option. I know that's one thing  that um he brought up, but as far as shifting the   dates, I think, you know, your voter turnout  is obviously going to be higher. Um, it would  

just come come down to how you're going to do  a runoff with, you know, are you going to do a   primary always and then the runoff be the general  election in November? Are you going to do away   with the runoff and just have it on the November  election? That is what Callaway and Panama City   Beach do. They just go straight to the general  and winner takes all. So there's no 50% plus one   um scenario. So So that plur Thank you, Nina.  And that plurality is the difference with Panama   City. So Callaway is a Callaway in Panama City  Beach. Whoever gets the most votes in November,   it wins. So if there are five people running and  somebody gets 21% and that's enough, that's it.   Under our charter, uh if if Panama City and it's  called, what is it called, Caroline? the primary   uh nominating primary is what nominating primary  election in November then within 30 days or at   some would have to then do the runoff election  sometime around Christmas which is not ideal   to say the least I do not recommend you want the  lowest possible turnout that's the the other appro   and other approach not the other approach another  approach is you would have your first election   in August and then you'd wait until November  to have the runoff. The the you have to there   there will be debate about well how many people  really will come in August uh for because that   would align with the primary election statewide.  So those are some of the decisions if the if a   goal is to get the most people possible out to  vote then just have to work through that. Now   the city commission the city commission uh can  change the dates by ordinance. They cannot change  

to a plurality form. So so they could change so  they would have to pick two dates. The date for   the nominating primary and then a date for the um  uh runoff election. So do you want to mention like   by ordinance if there wasn't a charter change?  I have I have a question for this board. So,   in the video when the that was sent to us  where the city had discussed this before,   Mark Anderson is at one of those meetings and he  talks about losing powers over the election if   the election gets moved to the general election.  He mentioned the qualification issues, having to   follow other federal and state laws. And he also  mentioned something about if you're if you have   a special election, you're on your own. Can you  sort of explain what that means or sort of what   does it mean that we'd lose power over? Sure. the  city would lose power if we moved to the general.   Yeah. So, currently um for your city elections,  each city has their own canvasing board. So, Jan   sits on the city of Panama City canvasing board.  Um typically, I'm one of the members and then one   of their staff. Um and that's the people that  just review, you know, they review the testing   of the election ballot. They review the vote by  mail signatures if there's any questions. So,   if you move to the county, then there is no  city canvasing board. The city doesn't get to   decide if you want early voting or where you want  your precincts. It's all up to the county. So,   I would just essentially take over just like I  do for the county elections. I would be running   your election completely. Um, and you'll be on  the county ballot. The county canvasing board   is the one that canvases your election and the  city basically doesn't have any say. So, so,   um, as far as I can't remember what the second  thing about the special election where he said if   you have a special election, let's say, you know,  a commissioner gets removed for whatever, you have   to have, you're on your own is what he said. I  was wondering what that meant. Um, I can't really   speak to what he meant. I know I currently have a  contract with the city to do your elections. So,  

if you have them in April, I'm going to do them  in April. If we put them on the county, you know,   it makes it easier for voters and easier for  my office. But, you know, that's completely I'm   going to do them whenever. And the qualif and the  qualification would then have to follow the other   elections, too. Yes. So, if you move your dates  qualification, correct? If you move your dates,   you're essentially following Florida statute. So,  your charter more or less would say, you know,   we're following Florida statute for election  laws instead of having, you know, specific   specific for the city. I I if I could interrupt  just a second. Yeah, that's I'm done. I No,   I believe that the the main takeaway is that  the city has a contract with the supervisor of   elections to run the elections. The city doesn't  have to have a contract with the supervisor of   elections. It could run its own elections and in  the past it has run its own elections. Uh so it's   not a charter requirement. It's not an ordinance  requirement. It's just a common sense thing that   the city has an a contract with a a independent  party that knows how to run elections. Yeah.   Statutoily I am required to provide you with  equipment um and precinct register. So I can   print you out a list of voters and you can go run  your own election. Um but the city's chosen to   just be under contract with my office that where  we we just take care of the whole process. So, we   qualify your candidates. We become the qualifying  officer, not the city clerk. Um, we handle all the   finance reports that goes along with campaigns and  all of that. So, so what has to be in the charter,   Devin, as far as elections? What's in the charter?  I mean, that's right. I mean, this the commission   can change dates by ordinance. Right. Right.  I wanted to make sure everyone understood that   that the state of Florida there's a statute that  gives that ability to to the commission. So even  

if the dates for the election is in the charter,  the commission can supersede that. Um it's because   there's a state statute because there's a state  statute that gives. So that brings me back to   what exactly has to be in the charter. Is it just  we have the election for the the plurality versus   the runoff? That's it. Plurality. Correct. That's  it. So even if we define when the election is   going to be, the city commission just say we're  not going to do that. Correct. Yes. Okay. And   Ne and I had I want to get in that conversation  through emails about that the commission can trump   the charter in a bunch of cases. Not only does  state statue get the trumpet or a federal statute,   the commission could do that as well. I believe  you. I mean, yeah, in some in some areas. So, and   that was one of my first questions when I got out.  Do we even need a charter? Well, yeah, you got to   have one. A whole advisory board. What do we need?  Yep. All right. Can we Can we do this selfishly?   I feel like we're we're at the tail end of our  third meeting as as a whole board. We haven't   even discussed with how much ourselves at all on  any of this stuff. And so I'm happy if somebody   wants to start I can call on somebody. I know  Brandon, you did some polling online. Ron, you had   started going down a line of thoughts and I said  to reserve it. So I'm not that's not lost to me.   I have that written down. So um I mean Ron, you  want to you can start wherever you want. I guess a   call. I I mean Mr. Chairman, I I would take it by  section almost if we were going to go through it.   So, the first one is the form of government and  if we can just limit conversations to that, I'm   glad to start. I think what we have now works. I'm  one of those that believe that the commission has   budget authority and policy authority and that's  it. Everything else is left to the city manager  

and this staff. Um, that's basically what we have  now and I think it works. Now, that's the only   as an elected official once upon a time that's  what I'm used to. So, you know, I can be swayed,   but I think that works fine with what we have as a  commission manager plan or however you want to say   it. I think that works fine. So, I mean, I like  to ask questions and they're not loaded at all.   I mean, you you lived that system for a long time.  At no point you didn't get frustrated with it. You   weren't saying, "Hey, I kind of wish I had more  say in this stuff." You had ultimately ended up   being pretty content with it. Yes. The only only  thing that I've heard in here that was a little   bit surprising to me is when I was chairman of the  school board, I had authority over the agenda. If   the superintendent and I agreed that it was not  ready to be on the agenda or even if I felt it   was not ready for the agenda, it didn't get on  the agenda. That was that was the chairman and   school board. The chairman did move around. I was  just pleasurable to serve more than once. But the   chairman or the mayor in this course had agenda  authority to say, "Uh-uh, that we're not ready for   that or whatever." Other than that, it worked well  for my in my service. Um, this type of of thing,   it get it keeps the board members from being in  the day-to-day operation. They should not, in my   humble opinion, that is the city manager and only  the city manager. Is it is it the again not loaded   trill is it the same or different because the  school board superintendent is basically like a   strong mayor or you think it's everybody that vote  should we have school board has five members and   the superintendent so the superintendent brings  recommendations all that and is in charge it's a   different system right but the superintendent so  the superintendent could bring a plan well just   like Jonathan he could bring a plan and the five  members of the board or you know or the majority  

of the board say superintendent functions a lot  more like a city manager. Yeah. And that's such a   that's correct. It's just an elected city manager.  It's a different concept the same but it's it's a   little bit different. I I would just add the  challenge from my standpoint and you know is   that and I always want to like you know look at  it from the elected official standpoint as well.   If if there there does need to be some level of  balance because if they feel like they don't have   any influence over the process and the direction  of the city then you know true which is what they   were sent by the to do to kind of help lead the  city and be a part of it. Um and they're not doing   what they feel like their constituents want and  they're not getting that done and the constituents   will respond by kind of voting them out. So there  is there is kind of that that that balance there   and especially with Lord voting because they're  there to represent you know the the needs and and   the desires and and they in theory should have  the finger on the of their respective I keep   saying district but it's Ward that's one thing  that came up by the way that I heard is like you   know Ward is kind of outdated maybe the charter  review committee should consider district I don't   know I think everyone else calls some districts  in the city or in the county. Not everybody. Who   else? Who else calls them? Springfield has wars.  Brandon, what have you what have you heard? I got   a lot of feedback that nobody wants a lot of folks  do not want to change from the current structure.   They feel that representation is good from their  commissioners. They do feel that the when you look   at the hierarchy, who should have the hardest job  in our city? Is that the mayor and he should be   held accountable to performing to that hardest job  or is that the city manager? And in our structure,  

the hardest job in our structure is the  city manager's job. I think we're looking   at city manager responsibilities. And I think  that the League of Cities mentioned 50% of   cities say that the clerk falls under the city  manager. Um, in a normal city about our size,   the city manager is the CEO that he answers to the  board, which is the five commissioners, right? So,   they help assist with vision. They get vision from  their their wards, from their constituents. Um,   as CEO, he also has to have to participate in that  vision, but his departments are the COOs and they   execute right at his direction. So, I don't see  value in changing away from that structure. We're   not a city of Charlotte. I'm actually in Charlotte  right now. Um we're not city of Charlotte size,   right? Um and it is working. I think it can work  better and I think the communication is getting   better from the city. Um and like I said, 75%  of the people that we pulled said that they   don't want to make a change from the current  structure. Now, that might mean we have a fifth   ward. We might need to talk about that. There  turns into five commissioners and one mayor. Um,   but I wouldn't recommend making a change from the  current structure. And I'll just add, so I'm in   charge of the budget, but Miss Smith is in charge  of the finances. So I think that's a really good   checks and balances, too, cuz you know, as city  manager, like I don't even know how to initiate   a check request. U, but if any cash goes out  of the city, you know, you didn't just have one   siloed department being able to do it. So, and  she does ask questions. Well, when you say in   charge of the budget, you're you're in charge of  maintaining that we are in good fiscal standing,   but you don't adopt the budget. The city  commission does that. Well, we draft it, we   present it, and ultimately it's adopted. But yes,  the staff that drafts the budget reports to me.

Brandon, what else have you found uh in regards  to just the structure? Yeah, I mean, you you had   several I thought when you were going through  it with uh Dr. Lee, you had several examples of   feedback that you've gotten. So, I I just want to  make sure I wasn't cutting you short. Yeah. Um,   W two, so I got a lot of feedback from W one  and W two. W 2 did not want to was the majority   of the feedback was they didn't want at large  commissioners. I know there was a discussion at a   city commissioner meeting a several months ago. um  a lady approached the podium asking for at large   voting where everybody in the city would be able  to vote for every um candidate in each ward, but   the requirements would be that that candidate has  to live specifically in that ward. And I think I   heard that Springfield and maybe Callaway is that  way. They do at large voting. Um, W two, the the   feedback I'm getting from them is they don't feel  that they would have proper representation. Um, if   the entire city got to vote for who, even if their  candidate lived in their ward, um, anybody could   live in the ward specifically, um, they didn't  feel that they would get great representation   if we did at large voting. Know which wards show  out in higher numbers? I'm putting up a spot here.   We can we can get that one. Last election it was  w one overwhelming figure. Okay. Are we the only   atlar I mean single member districts? Okay. The  only single member district uh city in Bay County   at least is Panama City. All the others are at  large. Um I believe what is it? Springfield,   Callaway, and Panama City Beach have wards for  their commissioners, but the voters vote at large. Just so we know our constraints, if we have to  have wards, I'm not suggesting we don't. I'm just   saying, do by law, do we have to have warts?  There's Well, it could be district. I mean,  

can you have five people from anywhere in  the city at any time and everybody votes   on all the people? Uh, we have a federal  court order. Um, well, but by statute. Oh,   by statute. just requires so they could all live  in the cove. Is that I don't think there's any I'm   just kind of curious cuz to Ron's point like what  are our constraints here? Yes, of course. So So we   have to have districts apparently. Yeah, it's a  great question. We're going to look into it. We   don't need to spend time on saying there's a court  order. I'm not trying to put something I'm not   really serious about this. I'm just trying to get  where the lines of I I I don't recall there being   a statutory requirement to have four districts or  four wards. There's not. So Linhaven does not have   districts or beach doesn't have districts. They're  just all at large. If there were no districts,   there would be no segregated representation. there  could be no argument that anybody would be less   represented than anybody else across the entire  city. And and just so the other board members   know, a lot of times I ask questions and there's  not an agenda here. I promise you it's more so   about me figuring out where the parameters are.  Like I like if if we're going to define a line,   I like to know where the line when we've crossed  the line. And so um uh anyways, so JP, what do you   think? Not about that. Just Ron. What's Ron said?  Right. It's a tough right just just about section   13. I I agree that I think that this the best  it's the good system for the best of times and the   worst of times. I think the powers are divided so  that whatever happens in the next 20 or 30 years,   no matter who's in those seats, the power will  be divided enough to where we won't run into a   problem. I think it's a good system. I think it's  working and that's I think we're good. And one   thing that Dr. Lee said that that struck a chord  was that we're not doing it for now. We're doing   it for years down the line and our former governor  we have will work years down the line. Whoever  

is the manager and whoever is the commission, you  know, it'll work. So, it has worked. Yeah. I think   we also need to look at all the details for like  when the uh ship is going to run ashore, you know,   like how do you correct it? you know, all of those  details really matter because when things due to   personality or whatever political issues people,  you know, are not agreeing with each other and   there's a process to kind of work it out, then we  need to make sure that those things are placed in   there. So, so one of the specifics in Ron, you  mentioned this was also who sets the agenda. You   said the one thing that kind of seemed a little  bit off was that the either the the mayor may   have any agenda authority. Well, if they do, they  can add something day of too. They can they can   put it to a vote to alter the agenda on meetings  individually. Individually. All commissioners have   that. So, I mean, I just want to be clear like  there's a section or agenda. It's additions,   deletions, modifications, and a commissioner or  the mayor could put something forward and then it   goes to a roll call vote to add it to the agenda.  But that's just in the rules of participation.   It's not a charter. Yeah. Um, hey guys, I got  to jump off. I do have one more thing. Um,   the other thing that was on my list is I've gotten  innumerable requests that we transition the mayor   two-year cycle to a mayor four-year cycle, four  year voting terms. They um, the information I've   received, all the feedback I've received is  that they are a fifth commissioner or they are   a separate commissioner. They don't get any extra  voting rights. Yeah, they get to lead the meeting.   um their election term should be just as long  as the re represented officials in each ward   for the commissioners. And I I I have some  thoughts about term limits and the number and  

aortionment that another time just in terms of the  structure. I got to go. I'll see y'all later. Hey, do we want to talk about that the four-year term  for mayor? Anything else about the mayor position?   I was thinking the same thing. It seemed a little  bit um duplicative to being hard on the mayor to   have to keep running every two two years and you  get to four year you can actually get some vision   going and the project. My thought about it is that  we move it to four but we establish term limits.   That would be my suggestion. All right, we'll  talk about that. What would the term limit be?   I want I I think a two term limit that the mayor  could serve for eight years at a time. Allow for   that rotation of power. Make sure that someone  doesn't stay in there for a decade or plus. Allow   new people to come in. Allow the power again to  cycle through uh to avoid any of that problem. So,   we're extending the time that they're that they're  allowed to be in there, but we're limiting it to   8 years. Are you just talking about the mayor  or all the commissioners? For just just for   the mayor or at least for now, I haven't. So the  mayor, the person who's the mayor could rotate off   mayor and become a regular commissioner. There  could Yes. Just just my my thought process,   if I may ask a question, Mr. Chairman, um the  only question I have with that is if the mayor   has no really additional authority, why would you  only limit that to the mayor? That's true. I mean,   but I I'd be will only to listen to a  term limit for commissioners as well,   just in terms of what we're talking about the  mayor. I think that it I think that helps to   avoid someone staying on the commission for  forever. I I have a comment if you care to   hear it. Um I think term limits I I don't I'm  not sure two terms is sufficient. It really  

takes them like two years just to figure  out what's going on. So they that really   only given them six years to actually serve. So  maybe three terms would be better. So, Nevin,   I'm going to pick on you since you have longevity.  Um, has that been an issue? Um, you know, I I do   know long ago we had mayors that serve for I think  Scott Clemens was mayor for a long, long time,   right? 30 years. Jerry. Jerry. Sorry. Jerry. And  then Rod Nikki was mayor 8 12 years, something   like that. Then we've had some very short tenure  mayors in there as well. And then I I I just don't   know the history of the commissioners. I don't  know. Have we had commissioners that have served   for decades or is that is this a solution looking  for a problem? Bill Raider served for 16 there is   um as far as the history yes I think Jerry  Clemens served for over 20 years. Um um and then   Greg Mayor Brecki served for 12 years or so. Um as  far as commissioners go, I know that Commissioner   Rder served 16 years 16 years. Uh, so I I don't  know if that's a problem or just shows they're   doing a good job and the voters wanted them to run  again. I you know I don't know but there has been   a history of some that have been in office quite a  while and then there's a history of some that were   there more than four years right now that had been  in office and got beat had been in office for 14   years 16 years and then and then somebody ran and  and all three of those defeated him ran unopposed   and the only time he was opposed was when he was  his very first election. Yeah. So he he never sh   faced a challenger on a re-election until his last  one. Clemens four. Yeah. Four of the five current   board members all defeated incumbents. So yeah,  I'm not bringing that point up JP to like argue  

against you. I'm just trying to get a context for  things. Um there Jonathan and I have discussed   this a lot about term limits and we we look at you  know we look at Tallahassee a lot and see how term   limits have kind of hurt Tallahassee to a degree.  Um because you've got legislators now that say my   biggest challenge in Tallahassee is defeating  bad legislation from freshman senators or or   representatives. Um so there is that side of it.  Term limits do empower professional staff. Um you   know so it empower Jonathan and Jan and Nevin to  a degree because of that constant turnover. Um so   just those some consequences and I'm not I don't  believe I'm taking a position on this either way.   Um, but just like the election dates, like your  your elections are going to cost they're going   to cost the candidates more because you're  now you're you're buying advertisement in   a field where national and state elections are  happening too. So there's all those different   third and fourth order effects just to kind of  be aware of. I will say one of the things and   kind of going off on a different subject that  strikes me as odd just based on my community   association background is the the lack of notice  on an agenda. like all of my associations have to   post their agenda 48 hours in advance and there's  really no reasonable mechanism to post something   on the agenda or add something to the agenda at  the very last minute and I I guess Florida statute   doesn't have the same thing for municipalities we  can bring something up if the if there's a regular   meeting which there are twice twice a month you  don't you're not required by law to even have an   agenda is my is last time I looked at it that's  not the practice though and we have uh rules of   procedure that talk about the agenda formation  and then also on how to uh uh run a meeting.   If you have a special meeting, you have to give  notice not only of the meeting but of the topic   that will be discussed and potentially voted on  at the meeting. But as far as a regular meeting,  

that's why things can be added to the agenda right  there at the meeting and can be uh uh voted on.   I mean, I will say and I'm thinking out loud. I'm  not suggesting we do this, but it's I think it is   a very good constraint because the the principle  is that the person sees the agenda and decides if   they want to attend the meeting or not. They look  ahead, they see what's going to be on there. Oh,   they're not talking about my issue today. So,  off they go. Whereas, if there is no agenda or   there could be something add at the very beginning  of the meeting, how does a citizen know if it's   something that they want to participate in or not?  Agreed. So, just throwing that out there. Just   real quick, Attorney General Pins and Case Law  discussed the fact that if there are two regular   meetings that the citizen just needs to be there  if they want to know what's going on. That's their   discussion and not I'm not saying that's practical  or or in today's world where uh and remember   those are old old cases and old attorney general  opinions. I don't think that would hold me. Well,   before there was the internet and uh and and all  where you can check the agenda right before you   know the day before the meeting. But that's that's  the logic behind regular meetings versus a special need to at least give the appearance of this is  what we're going to do so people know whether   they want to take off or participate or  whatever arrangements they need to dish. Ron looks like the mouse on the wheels running  pretty hard. What you got? No, I'm I'm just   thinking about the the agendas. I I've been to  some city commission meetings and I only come when   there's something on there I want to talk about.  Yeah. But you don't know something to Jonathan   to run the city. I, you know, I have all faith in  Jonathan. So, it's just agenda items that I need   to talk about. I don't need to go unless there's  something that I want to talk about. Yeah. But the  

flip side would be you don't know if they're going  to add something, you know, which has happened   before, but you know. Yeah. Okay. Um I mean if  that's a concern, I mean one I'm assuming that   y'all could Mr. Chairman add in in you know in the  charter that you know after an agenda is published   it requires a supermajority of four fifth vote  to add anything so that you don't just have three   commissioners adding something at the last minute.  that could be if that's kind of a buffer you want   to put in there to I mean you wouldn't want to  completely tie their hands because there there   always are you know there always is the potential  for extraordinary circumstances to add something   to an agenda or it could be something getting  added that's benign um that's just a thought I   don't know if if what other you know charters are  out there that have that type of restriction we   could look at that we could also if uh we start  coming up with these fine-tuned questions you   know, send it to the um Dr. Lee again. He may have  a faster way of finding out what the I I did not   walk into this meeting wanting to discuss notices.  It just kind of resets the agenda and how that   works and whatever thinking through all the board  meetings that I've sat through. I mean, God, I   mean, maybe not thousands, but certainly hundreds.  And um I understand there's a dynamic nature of a   city and things come up at the last minute. But  on the other hand, like what really does come   up with 48 hours notice or 72 hours notice? like  there there's a degree of planning and foresight.   You're you're a massive city with 50,000 people  to a certain extent. It's like we have to balance   between uh making sure that there's enough  discretion for the commission to make decisions   that come up on the fly, but it's also like, you  know, your citizens have a right to see all the   sausages made. And I I 100% agree with you that  the attorney general opinion says it's incumbent   on the citizens to come to every meeting. I just  and they're way smarter than I am. It just seems   like that's not perhaps the best policy. But  anyways, I'm not I'm just I don't know. bring   something up. I don't know if I want and it's  odd because I work close enough to the where they  

usually have the meetings that if I'm listening  and something comes up, I have to go over there.   You know, it's um I wasn't planning to come to  this meeting. That's right. Yeah. Anyways, so now   just in terms of it seems like the board has an  agreement on just the general structure here. Is   that am I correct in that assessment about keeping  the president? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not hearing any any   check also just in terms of where we are the  beginning of what we're talking about today. I   just wanted to Yeah, I mean I I guess I am hearing  there might be some fine tuning but as far as a   dynamic shift to a strong mayor or commission  only system or something like that. No, there   doesn't seem anyite for that. Um I'm happy to keep  discussing. I told you guys we'd we'd wrap up at   11:30. So I'm not trying to rush anybody out.  Happy other comments. I think on the elections,   I'm just there pros and cons to to moving them  to get more participation, you know, but then   uh I think you you need to tread carefully on on  that. I' definitely support more participation. So, if I can suggest this for our next meeting,  let's think about are there any refinements or   details to the commission manager system that we'd  like to incorporate into the charter? Things like   who sets the agenda? I'll give some more thoughts  of whether I want to make an actual push for this   notice thing or not. Things like that. Uh, and  then number two would be the election structure.   We can actually debate the term limits and the  I don't know if there's any discussion about the   number of wards or that's in the next section. And  so JP I think you rounded off like three or four   things like a portionment term limit something  else too. What were they? My my main thinking is   and let me just explain this real quick. You know  we're kind of in an in between point. I'm looking   ahead to the next census and I'm looking ahead  to the next reortionment. I'm thinking about the  

growth of the city and what we're going to do in  the charter where we're going to set a number. I   was trying to come up with an idea of something  where this could become automatic to where we   instruct the commission on what that is going to  be cuz I know that sort of echoing what Brandon   said, everyone likes their representation and  the connection that they have. And if the city   continues to grow, it's going to dilute each of  the voter representation. But I think it's too   early to pull the trigger on adding an additional  ward right now because you know right I the   numbers I have roughly everyone has,200 voters  per ward right in trying to keep but having come   up with a system and maybe some assistance there  on some type of aortionment method right because   it's we're going to set the structure and the  commission will have to worry about that six seven   years from now because I I think I care more about  that aortionment and keeping our aortionment the   way we have now uh than sort of the particulars  about anything else. Do those do those numbers   sound right about 8,000? Um I can you can that's  population that's not by far but in 2022 you know   you had one with 8,400 w,800 roughly. I'd like  to get the information on on the actual voters,   the eligible voters and then also um who  is actually voting. I guess those are two   different questions. I you you have to form  the districts by population. You can't do it   by voting. Correct. I understand, but I'm still  would like that information. Yeah, I I agree   100% of the spirit of that. I think it's a very  challenging calculation to formulate that. I think   you can accomplish the same thing by mandating a  charter review every so many years also five years   10 years whatever I think you can solve that  same problem with that mechanism a little bit   cleaner right just I just want to be clear you're  you're required to reortion every 10 years right   after the census you have to do it within two  years of the census right but that's that's not  

what I'm saying I'm talking about adding seats or  right that that would be up to the I agree but um   from from my perspective is how are you going to  get that number to reortion to the next district   because the only concrete information you have is  from the which is every 10 years other than the   voters which is you're representing you the sense  is representing population not voters. So there's   some discussion this year from the governor about  trying to force a like a cycle yeah midterm or   midcycle census. So well that could impact the  challenge with just adding one ward is that it   creates an even number and then you got to kind  of figure out that dynamic of how do you square   that circle the mayor could lose his voting oh  could you have to answer that question I mean   you know do they have to do that like a not super  majority do they do they have the ultimate say   can they break ties but you have to solve for that  problem too well and what we I think Robert tools   of order having grown up Presbyterian basically  you what you could do in the if you had six,   the mayor being number six is he or she only votes  to force a tie or break a tie. Those only force a   tie which kills the motion or to break a tie. What  I think what I heard in this discussion if you'd   like us to look is is any other city tried to  think into the future that if a certain threshold   is reached that a new district is formed.  Yes. Is that what we're talking about? So,   we'll look and see if anybody has uh tried to do  that prospectively in the charter. I think it'd be   difficult to do. I'm not saying it's impossible to  do, but we can look and see if that's been done. Three other things. Ignorant question. Other  than the census, how do you figure out who  

lives in the city and who doesn't? That's the  big we get a we get a population estimate from   the state of Florida every year for like how they  how they um split up the um state shared revenues   and that kind and those kind of things. Um  so they the I think it's the department of   economic out of where they is that guesses  from them. Well, that's what it used to be,   but it's something different now. But there  it's one of the uh state agencies that that   um make the estimates for the entire state. And  in the back of my mind is as the city grows,   it's going to be in North Panama City by land  by land anyway, you know. And so whenever that   trigger comes, and I agree with JP, there ought  to need to be an mechanism to pull that trigger   in the charter. I don't know. It's it going  to be hard to do but um because basically I'm   thinking Congress before the Reinforcement  Act of 1929. That's that's what my thinking other than that you have a charter  review connected to the census or   you do it that would be the other way to do it. Okay. See what else? I think we that's a  good amount of stuff to focus on. So just   to put a bow on this. Um we'll come in with  the next meeting on discussions over refining   the existing system whether we need to make any  clarification to city manager role, mayor role,   anything like that. But but overall there's  no appetite to change the commission manager   structure. also uh a more detailed discussion  on the actual election procedures. Do we want   to consider putting when the election should be  in the charter uh how runoffs procedures works?  

Is it a majority plurality? Things like that and  then also a degree of consideration as to how we   want to address future growth in the city, the  expansion of wards, things like that. Is there   anything else? And we're not, as Ron told in one  of the meetings, it's it's a bit of a of a living   document until we present it to the commission. Is  there anything else that we want to be prepared to   be discussed? I think if you tackle the rest  of article 2, we'll be here a lot cuz that's   all those things. Yeah. Well, I mean, the hope  would be at the next meeting, it's going to go   straight into debate or discussion. Yes. Right.  I mean, there's not I don't And maybe we get So,   okay. So, then that's the next point. Just  to be clear with staff, what information do   we need from them from them to help make this  discussion more productive in a couple weeks? Well, we'll look at the question of perspective.  Okay. As far as just trying to do a quick review   of other charters and then Cecil, did  you have Nina working on you? Nina was   going to um Yeah. And I actually I I  see where I sent Jonathan the numbers,   but I have the our voter our reports are just  active voters, so they're not going to really   line up for census. Yeah. Um, but currently I  can give you the numbers by Ward if if that's   what you're want. Yes. And participation in  the last election by Ward. I can definitely   I think you already sent active voters or  what voted two or how what just people that   are actively registered. Okay. I I do know your  numbers are accurate though. She could probably   verify wards two and four are much smaller  voter-wise than ws one and three. Correct.   Yeah. So W one we're sitting at 6537. W two is  49.65. Um, W three is 7430 and W 4 is $49.95.

And yes, to your point, there's now annexation  over in the west part of W 3 and the north part   of W 4 is really the only real growth. There's not  a ton of property to be developed in Panama City   proper. Not to say there's not any. So yes, the  overwhelming majority of the growth in our city   um will be in Panama City North, which as of  today will have a great effect on W three,   which is I think why you've seen that growth.  It's a thousand ahead of even the second largest   which is W one at 6,500. And it's double the  land mass of the original Panama City. So I   mean it's it's like Alaska on a map, you  know, not not to scale not to scale. Okay. Um, maybe not a question for today. I  guess overall from a policy standpoint,   is there an appetite for the city to continue to  just annex anybody who's interested in being part   of the city in that direction? Do we know? Is  that is that a commission discussion? They have   to approve it. Well, I I'll give you just real  quick. To annex, you have to be able to provide   urban services and you have to be cont uh  contiguous contiguous contiguous. Thank you,   Ronos. Uh you have to be contiguous. You can't  create an enclave or a pocket. Anyway, so there   are some standards under the under the law on how  you annex provided it meets those standards. Our   current board has not shied away from annexing  anybody who wants to come in. Okay. All right.   Any other directives for staff or other officials  that they can help us with the next meeting? All right. So, we'll be back on what is  it? October 25th, 6th. Uh 23rd. 23rd. I  

I I did want to highlight and I don't know if  anything's changed with Miss Smith, but her and   I are actually both out November 20th. Is that  still the same for you, ma'am? So, and that's   kind of the week before Thanksgiving. Um, given  the big jump from November 20th to January 22nd,   I was just going to see if the board would be  willing to consider moving that middle meeting   to December 4th. Um, and not be the week before  or after Thanksgiving. Just a thought. That sounds   Yeah. I mean, y'all can certainly proceed, but I  don't know if I mean, Mr. Jones can, you know, but   I just think take minutes. They can take minutes.  So, or or again, just move the November 20th to   December 4th and then that kind of that does put  the meeting, you know, um in between October 3rd   and January 4th, maybe a little bit, you know,  maybe a little bit more in the middle, but because   you don't have anything planned in December right  now. That's just a thought. So, what would the   Thursday be? It would be December 4th. Yeah. So,  you're suggesting moving the 20th, November 20th   to December 4th. Yeah. And I apologize. We should  have looked at our calendars as well cuz we we   knew at the last meeting that her and I both were  going to be unavailable that week. JP, are you   good with that? Yep. Let me double check the main  conference. That's fine. Okay, let's go with May. Yeah. Ron, are you good with that? Um, I  can be. I'm not going to ask you. No,   y'all y'all can do it without me,  but we'll Yeah. Um, but honestly,   like no flight to I'd rather have you there than  staff there, frankly. So, we've already got And   then the only other question is I don't know  if y'all want to stick with starting at noon   with lunch at 11:30 or do you like the morning  time? I the days we have it I can't be yours  

very much. Okay. I'm I'm going to already miss  some court in the afternoon. It is purely a call. I'm okay. I'll do some rearranging. Okay.  All right. Well, let's move our meeting   from November 20th to the same time on  December 4th. And anything else before   we adjourn? I think y'all voted on that last  time on the about the adurement meeting or Oh,   on the meeting. Yeah. No, no, y'all voting  to establish the date. I move to change the   meeting date 4th. Okay. Second. All  right. All in favor? Any opposed? No.   All right. There we go. So, that's approved.  Anything else before the next uh before we again staff? Thank you guys for preparing  the legal city things. I think I seriously   I honestly like I didn't have crazy high  hopes. I you know it was kind of interesting   to see what they had to say but for it was  very very helpful. It really really was. Um   and then I appreciate you guys as a board  kind of getting educated on this stuff and   reaching out to people. So far so good.  All right. I think Ron moved to ajourn.