Planning & Community Design Commission - Regular Meeting

and chairman yourself for November 6, 2025 to order. Madam Secretary, you please call the role. Certainly. Robert Jurgel present. Petri Paul is here. Jenna Nat, I think is is absent. Tim Spiel, present. Sam Wallock, present. Felicia Ford. Laura Raddale

present. Let it also be known that city council member Brian Lewis is in attendance as well as our staff liaison Carlos Tjo Alvette's uh director of planning community development department Dawn Dodie senior planner and I hear Jack's uh taking the night off right that is correct sir it it's his birthday today so we'll let him happy birthday to Jack tomorrow oh so he notes free [laughter] okay

in a All right, good. Good. Well, thanks everybody to for being in attendance. We appreciate it. Sometimes we have no people, nobody. Sometimes we have a full house. So, this is a a good a good balance. So, we appreciate that. Um, just so everybody knows who have who hasn't been here before, we follow the agenda, you know, um, uh, item by item. Um, we do have a time for public comments um, at the beginning. These are reserved for issues that are not on the agenda. If there's a public comment that's related to the agenda, there'll be a time within that agenda uh item and how we go through with uh the petitions. Um staff will go over their report um kind of discuss the findings, discuss any issues they have. Um then there'll be some time for question and answer between the commission members and staff. And then we typically bring on the petitioner. It's kind of help answer those questions, provide additional guidance or add additional background to it. Um, and then after that, then we take on public comments uh for those particular items. Okay. Anybody have any questions? All right. See none. That's good. That's good. We do have some special instructions for people that are online. Um, you know, you have to raise your hand to uh let us know if you have a question. It takes a little bit of time to bring you on the uh panel. Um, we do ask you to make sure that you uh unmute and turn off or turn on your video so that we can uh have that going on uh during the session. Um, it usually takes time. So, if you guys can be looking out for that to uh to make sure that's done, that would be great. Otherwise, it kind of puts the meeting on hold until we get that done. All right, Carlos, did I miss anything?

No, sir. All right. Very good. So, are there any public comments or announcements um you know tonight uh in the audience? I see nobody. Oh, I see one. Yeah, come on. Come on up. Is it related to an agenda item? No. Okay, perfect. That's exactly what we need. And we do ask you to state your name and address for the record. And I forgot to mention, we do limit public comments to be no more than three minutes. be respectful of everybody's time and to make sure everybody's opinions get heard. Absolutely. Great. [clears throat] Good evening everybody. My name is Larry. Uh please turn on your microphone as well.

Sorry about that. Knew I missed something. Now we're going. [laughter] Uh my name is Larry Norber. I live at two Stacy Drive. Uh and really everybody, I need some guidance tonight uh on an issue that we're facing in our neighborhood uh with a particular builder. Uh currently there are two new homes that are being built on Stacy. Um one uh uh and one in particular is at 12 Stacy. As you know on uh with two homes being built within about six doors of each other, there is considerable construction traffic on Stacy. And um uh we also have traffic barriers on Stacy because there is considerable foot traffic on Stacy and bicycle traffic on Stacy and um little kids traffic on Stacy. So we try and slow the traffic down to make sure that we stay safe. Um, one of the developers, uh, the Manland company is building a new home at Stacy and they have a pension for moving our traffic barriers and, uh, and and they need to, they got to get their equipment in and their workers in, but their pension is not to replace those barriers at the end of the day. And over the since about April, uh, I can go back to April in my emails, I have begged Mr. Manley to have his workers um straighten those barriers back out at the end of the day. And uh the response I get from Mr. Manlin is, "Oh, I'll tell my superintendent or are you sure it's us?" Now, I am sure it's them because I get comments from the neighbors and I have

video. So, I know it's Manland's workers that are moving these barriers and not replacing them. And this impacts the safety of our neighborhood. And it's my contention that putting these barriers back uh uh as they are part of what's impacting our neighborhood as a result of the construction needs to be monitored, needs to be in some way compelled or convinced to Mr. Manlin that he's got to put these back. And I get short shrift every time I speak with him. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, buddy. Howdy, dudy. See you later. Goodbye. Well, that doesn't do the safety of our neighborhood any good. And by the time somebody gets run over, it's too late. That's why we have our barriers. That's why they need to be replaced. And Manlin is not pulling his weight as a good neighbor or as an owner. And I need some guidance on how to get him moving in the right direction. Now, um, over the last couple of nights, guess what? After me threatening to come before PCDC, we haven't had any issues with the barriers, but it took an act of Congress to get it done. And I don't trust him. I don't believe that he is going to continue on. And like I said, I've got video and he poo poos it and I'm done with it. So, I need your help. I appreciate you hearing me out tonight. And I let him know in no uncertain terms that he was going to be on the radar, at least through this discussion of what has to be done, what might be done. But you guys need to know that he's not a good neighbor. He's not um a

builder with conscience, and we've asked him to put the barriers up. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Thanks [clears throat] for your comments. You bet. Carlos, can you reach out to Mr. Manlin? Yes. Just and they they had included me within the past couple of days on on those. So, good. Good. Just just to get some uh and kind of let your inspectors know maybe too if they're going over in that area. Yes. But it not to prolong the discussion, but we'll make them aware. And that's all we

All right. Um, I would advise to to contact the the actual owner of that uh lot because I believe it's that house has already been sold. Is that correct? So, you might want to do that, you know, as well. Um, I'm not sure if you have his contact information, but maybe uh Carlos can provide that. Okay. I'll let Mr. Banning know that I'll speak with the owner. Yeah. Good. All right. Thank you. Any other public comments? Seeing none in the audience, Carlos, you please check online. All right. So far, everybody that is online is regard in regards to one of the agenda items.

Okay. Good, good, good. Okay. So, we'll move on to old business. Uh item A 8950 Olive Crossing Carlos. Yes, sir.

All right. So, first I'm going to give a quick overview and then we do have the uh the the petitioner and their representatives here and then also the architect uh is online uh in there. So, um this was presented at our last meeting on October 16th. It's a four-story 128 room courtyard hotel. It's part of the Olive Crossing development which is a 14 acre six lot mixeduse development. um its use, its location and the overall building mass has been approved by the council. uh that was approved uh through the developers agreement uh when the development uh initiated I believe around uh 2018 and then through subsequent amendments through 2021 and then recently there's been some alterations uh in there but the the uh the use of allowing a hotel at lot 6 uh was authorized by the council through the developers agreement. Uh the council also allotted a specific height uh for the hotel and and a extended setback along the uh what's that southwest property line uh in there. So in this process what the commission is doing is what we call design review meaning the conceptual plan has been approved and here you're actually kind of now really working as an architectural review board uh and site plan review uh process and that's what's uh before you now. Uh we discussed it a little bit at the last meeting. The location is even further back where the from where the old office max used to be. It's at the far southern tip of the of the development. Um and it about I170 on one side. Uh the Stony Tower subdivision on the west and then to the north is the remainder port of the development. And then what you see here are the more recent elevations uh uh revised elevations which included some additional uh uh fiber cement panel on that first level. Uh at our last meeting, we talked about

the the the the hotel uh and how it was part of the the master development plan and kind of outlined the the location and it's reviewed through through the fire department to get proper access and why the thing is kind of why the hotel footprint is kind of oriented uh at that location. The commission talked about the uh the use of materials uh quite a bit at the the last meeting and you can see here the updated elevations on your left uh with the initial elevations on your right. Uh we were concerned about the amount of ephist. We went uh had quite a bit of discussion uh on materials and uh one part of the discussion included that at least at the first level uh be something other than uh the use of ephus and that's what's been submitted before you. Uh here we talked about a landscape plan. There was some uh comments uh from the neighboring properties regarding landscaping. Um they are required by code to install landscaping. This is uh an updated landscaping plan that the developer provided that has been put together. And the way our landscaping uh landscape plan works is that uh per linear frontage or by linear foot along a property, they have to hit a specific point system. Uh so you know all you see here you know the the number of points that are provided within this landscape plan comply with the city minimums and within your packet you can see the details of the uh the the type of plantings and then the schedule plantings here on the right hand side. Little hard to read on the uh the monitor but you do have copies of those uh in there. And then I urge everyone to uh to know that you can access those plans uh along with the public uh through the city's website. And that is simply when you're on the agenda. And of course those that uh me stop the share here to make sure that the public can see that.

When you're on the city's agenda, if you click the hyperlink that's been provided, it takes you straight to a dedicated web page regarding the Olive Crossing development. In that dedicated page, you have the update of the development as a whole. And then now here you have the updated plans and everything before you uh for the uh the courtyard by Marriott, which is lot six. Uh you have applicable references including the uh the developers agreement adopting ordinances that go back to uh as far back to 2018. And then you have the history information of the previous developments that have been on that site. So there's a lot of uh access a lot of data uh in there for the commission. you know, if you want to see the plans at a u at a glo closer detail, I urge you to kind of utilize the the website uh to access those and then you can uh you know uh zoom in, zoom out uh through through the process. Some of these plans are pretty large in size. Um but you'll get a lot more information than what you'll see in my in the slides, okay? Or in your 11 by 17 sheets of paper. So please take advantage of that. Uh that's where we're putting all the plan sets uh information. Eventually the reports will go on there too. All right. So I'm going to stop the share again and I'm going to go back to the PDF of the presentation. Bear with me one second for those that are online. So there is your revised landscape plan that was discussed at that last meeting. Uh we also talked about the elevations of the property. Um and there there was concerns from the neighboring properties uh to the west in Stony Towers uh whether the the the hotel was going to be mound and we tried to focus um that there is already an existing uh storm sewer system that's been installed and at this point is the top of the inlet that you see here. Uh, and you can see that the top of the wall, the bu the base of the wall is

actually about a foot and a half higher than the the the the flooring, the first floor of the hotel. And then you can see the inlet here that's already been installed. Um, you know, so all that water has to be directed in there. So, they're not mounting any higher. There was still some questions about that. And you can see here, here's the the buffer screen wall, the base of the wall at 591.5. And then you can see Jack Carwell kind of standing there on top of that inlet. And so all this mound that you see here is eventually going to be removed uh from the property grounds. Uh and there so uh we requested the developer to provide us a couple of revised cross-sections. Those have been uh provided. They're in your packets and uh they were they were accessible uh online. So you can see they did um uh six total cross-sections. uh they labeled them as uh a b cde e and f and each cross-section is uh noted here. The one I'm going to focus on primarily will be two. One is oops excuse me here you know the adjacent residential properties in the stony towers the 8ft wall this the council also authorized that they instead of having a 6ft wall that a minimum 8ft wall be placed uh in there uh in addition to that they expanded the the required buffer typically it would only be 10 ft uh their buffer is about 30 ft uh in there then you'll have the grading of the parking lot, the protrusions of like the outdoor pool, and then the building height uh of the hotel. It is a a four-story hotel. Uh they were authorized to go up to five stories. In this case, that's been modified to just four uh in there. But that kind of gives you an idea of that cross-section here between the residential properties

and uh and the hotel. And that's taken right here. You can see the pool, the outdoor patio, the property line, and the buffer wall, and then it just goes up to here. The house is further back down that way. The other one I'm going to show you is along the freeway, just so you can get an idea of the the the elevation of the freeway and the hotel. Uh, that's uh cross-section DD. And that would that be here. This is the surface area of I70. This is the surface area in front of the hotel and then this is a protrusion of the hotel there at the port. Yep. It's a lot of data and I I I know it's being introduced to the commission. Uh but urge you to kind of take a look at those. If there's any questions, uh feel free to call us or ask or there's any inquiries about making the data uh better, let me know. Uh we asked a developer for a pedestrian an updated pedestrian plan.

Can I ask you a quick question about that section? There was some discussion last time about uh some sort of potential need for a guard rail because the there was going to be a dip um I believe between 170 and the and the the hotel property.

Yes. and we'll get to I'll allow the developer to kind of explain that one cuz I let me bear with me here one second. Uh which cross-section that would be okay. Okay. Here's a surface area of I170 and each of these increments is one foot. Correct? Yeah. So look like there's an issue. It's vertical.

So yeah, if you're if you're looking between this is 580 and that's 590 each one of these. So you're looking at a drop of about two two to three feet. Okay. Okay. And then there's the surface area of the drive and then the grading as you get to uh the the base of the hotel. I'm going to go back here because you're kind of at the far back end of the hotel here. Mhm. So, we'll take a look at DD and this this piece right here. And that's the one that we took a look at uh just about earlier. And they're pretty much flushed. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

And then we'll take a look at AA, which is at the furthest north, just in case. And then you can see the surface area of the interstate drops about a foot and then comes back in. Any other other questions on those? No. Yeah.

Uh we asked a developer for an updated pedestrians plan. We're still reviewing this and we need to have a continued discussion with the developer. uh condition of the uh the developers agreement and the the uh PDD was to make sure that this was a uh a pedestrianoriented type of development uh in there and I think there's a couple of links that we'd like to see improved uh on those and we'll get uh we haven't had a chance to sit down with the developer but they are making the attempt to show how those links are interconnected within the site. Okay.

And those are the updates I have. Uh we also got today some additional information uh in there. Now bear with me. Yes, this should be visible to those that are online. Uh so we received the uh the lighting plant which is the developer allow the developer to kind of talk about that uh in there. So you you'll have uh the phototrics and talk about the fixtures. Uh and again those are governed by code. They are all required to be boxed down down light uh and avoid the spillage. uh uh upward uh and then controlled along the the the sides. They'll talk about that and how that is uh laid out. One of the newest things that more most community more communities are talking about. Uh but we've been working with the developer was to limit that blue hue and trying to get that that hue level a little bit down and we'll continue to work with them on uh on that. And in addition to that, uh there's some information regarding materials that uh the petitioner and their their team including the architect will talk about. Be glad to answer any specific questions. Oh, there was one more here. I had a note on the landscape plan. Um, and I believe that it has been addressed by the developer, but if uh they can talk a little bit about the the outdoor area because there was some comments about noise generation um in there and how that was being uh mitigated. Okay.

And while [clears throat] you were talking, you said it was an outdoor pool, but it's an Oh, no indoor pool. There's an outdoor uh patio patio. There you go. That's what I thought. I just Sorry about that. Yes. No worries. Okay. Any questions or comments uh for Carlos? Okay, seeing none, if petitioner could come up, that'd be great. Remember to state your name and address for the record.

I state your name. Yes. Greg Yaw with 6 Heather Hill Lane. Uh and just before we get started, a uh uh Miss Jerry M. Jerry Kleinhoffner is on Zoom. She's going to be the architect of record. She's with BRP architects out of Springfield. Uh it's a 4-hour drive to get here and she just didn't have eight hours plus to turn around at night. And then with me in the audience is Jason Braidwood, one of my uh development partners. Uh so, Mr. Chairman, thank Did I give my address? I think I did. What? One second. I'm going to go ahead and bring Miss Yeah. bring bring Jerry in just so she's aware. I don't want her to feel left out.

So, Jerry, I'm going to promote you to panelists eventually when you speak. uh if you can uh outside of the the mic to also have your video on that's for security reasons.

Great. Okay. So, uh thank you for having us. Um we are back tonight. Uh and as Carlos said, we provided quite a bit of data given the timetable and thirdparty vendors. It didn't all come in as early as I would have liked. In fact, the lighting plan came in today, but we'll we'll get to that. So, my plan for tonight is to run through what I heard and what we changed and then feel free to take any questions, either interrupt me, we can take them at the end. There's things Jerry's going to cover uh that she's well more versed in as an architect than I am as just a simple developer. So, first we actually will start with landscaping. So, Carlos, if you want to pull that landscaping plan out.

So, I want to point out a couple of things on our landscaping plan. I challenged our landscape architect uh to make us a code compliant plan under Olivet's code and or at least as part of our I don't know if it's codewide or part of our agreement. We're given the the length of this thing allowed to request up to 20% variance in the number of plant points. We are requesting no variance. I want to point out a couple of things and address the big red I would say the elephant in the room but it's in big red font right on the screen. Um, so first off, I want to point out that the team has lined the entire west side, which already has an 8- foot fence with evergreens. Right? We heard the concerns of our neighbors. You can see in the elevations that the patio is below or at the same level as the neighbors, so sound does not jump a fence. At the same time, we want to be good neighbors. So, this is a fully compliant plan loaded with sound eating evergreens along the shared line. Number two, you will notice around the patio. Yes. So,

how tall will those be? Well, when they're planted, they'll be four, five, six feet. I I I can't tell you an exact number, but but the but how high will they be?

Will they grow? I'm guessing they'll grow to 8 to The ones I have at Price Crossing have grown up to about 10 11 feet. Um, you also see a wrap of planting around the outdoor patio. What is also drawn into the patio as an option I that we can do if you would like, it's really we're going to give it to the commission for discretion. Um, Steve Mitten, who's one of the architects on the team who couldn't be uh available tonight, um, concepted in a six-foot fence around the patio. Now, we can do that if you want given the 8-foot fence and the evergreens and that this is going to be a limited activity patio at a limited service hotel. I am of two minds. One has to do with security. One has to do with, you know, I'm just more like, yeah, I think it's a good idea. I'm not sure. We are fully willing if the commission wants a fence around the patio. It's not going to be live music and bands and lots. It's a limited service hotel patio. If you would feel better on behalf of the neighbors asking us to put in a 6ft fence around it, totally fine with that. That's what I got for land. So, but just the highlights of the landscape plan are no variance requested, fully compliant, loaded with plants. I thought that was important. Yes. I just wanted to ask a question. In other places where you've had the patios, does that just turn into a smoking lounge or I mean it seems like just

so generally well one I don't own another hotel yet. So this this is my first hotel because other Courtyard Marriotts a lot of the a lot of the properties have gone to smokefree. So it's smoke free the whole campus. Well the campus is not smoke I mean we I don't think we've gone smoke free on our campus. is I think there's people that smoke at our apartment building. Um we're just not seeing anymore. Jerry, do you have any input on that one?

I can help out with that. Um most of these limited service hotels now have a limited area where they'll allow people to smoke. So I would assume they're not going to let people out on this back courtyard here um smoking because it could bother other guests, right? So, um, there will have to be a station somewhere around the exterior where we do allow smoking for those likely probably on the southern end of the parking lot. I was just curious for, you know, the neighbors and whether that just becomes a big smoking, you know, lounge because it's not allowed in actually in there. So if the smoking can be closer to the highway [laughter] side might be

I think if you want to put in stipulate into our approval assuming you would hopefully approve this that the smoking area be designated to be on the highway side have no challenge with that at all. Thank you. No no problem at all. So Carlos talked a bit about the cross-sections one one if I can just for the clarification. So on the screening the screen wall right now within the current plan set it is just a it is defined just by flat work a patio with without any edge right and so if you look at the lands yeah it's probably a flat patio we'll put a fence around it if you'd like.

No well just wanted to make sure before asking for a fence to something that is already has a perimeter to it. So the perimeter is open and it's defined by the landscaping as as shown in the landscape plan right now. Uh so here you would have if you can come in from the building or from the two sides or it was transfer landscape right here. You see these double lines. Wasn't sure that was a knee wall or I believe I believe Steve's intent that on the floor plans is that being the sixoot screen wall. You're correct.

Okay. And then the question would be that if the commission does pursue a sixoot screen wall, it would be good to know what what what a material you're looking at or what what exactly are you looking at uh in there? So, okay. And I'm not saying that it's necessary. I'll leave that to the commission, but if you're going to require one, uh what is it going to be made out of? Right. Right. Okay. So, you guys will think about that one as we go further.

Yeah. Yeah. So on the cross-sections, um, couple things I want to point out, Carl, if you'll pull that up. So on the and really predominantly the highway side ones. As we traverse from A to D to F, the elevation of the highway actually changes. So Carlos, if you go over to zoom in on A real quick. We'll do so. One second.

Thanks. [gasps] There's actually a detail that was I don't think you caught when you were going over A, which is there's a wall there. So the highest point is the northern end. It declines. The road declines as it heads south. And so there's a few things are going to interplay. They're going to be hard to to show you because they're on multiple sheets, but I'll I'll refer to them and then we'll go take a look at them. So on the north end, the road is slightly higher. That's a little bit deceptive. I I find this to be off a little bit. I'm not sure this 100% right because there's a there's a knee wall that runs along 170. If you drive south, you'll see it. Barrier.

Yeah, it's a concrete bar concrete knee wall. So, in the areas where we're higher, we're sorry, where we're lower and there's a fence, I think we're okay. We're landscaping in between when we get to F. So, if you go over to F, Carlos, the last one, what you'll see there is we have our drive lane almost up against the property line and then there's a distance before you get to MODOT's fence and wall. What I'm thinking is we're going to run some sort of safety, you know, uh, aluminum fence along the side of the drive lane just so that no one thinks that it's a good idea to go across the drive lane. It's not meant to be there. As it relates to the we'll call it the no man's land between our property line and the fence that is public mode property. I can't give you an answer today what's going to happen there, but I have in the past gotten permission from MDOT to maintain their property. And I'll give you an example of that. As you turn the radius onto 170 from Olive in front of our detention basin, there's a hill there of grass. We're putting irrigation there and we're going to plant it. It's actually MDOT's property. They said just keep it cut. I just have to have that conversation with them about the hotel land. I don't expect an issue. I can't promise control of public property to you. I can tell you that it is in our best interest to Yeah. Keep going. There you go. It's that hill there in front of our basin. So, we're we're running landscaping irrigation to that area because I want the entrance to our city to look super awesome. So, actually using this, if you want to run south, Carlos, you'll see what I'm talking about. the elevation goes up.

So, what fence is that? Is are we looking That is MDOT's ch. So, you talking about the powder co Yeah, this chain that is mod's fence. Okay. That's a mo fence. Yeah, it's a it's a one of the And that's what we saw in your rendering in your elev. That's what's that's what's referenced in the elevation. That that fence runs all the way south along the highway. If you want to jump like go up the ramp and jump onto the highway. Buckle up.

Everybody got their seat belt on, right? Okay, we're getting on the highway. So, you see the wall there? That's the wall reference in all of the drawings. Concrete barrier. Now, as we get to the southern end where we are south of the power poles. And this is where I'm going to need you to think about this to sort of visualize this in your head. You see the power poles? That's the circle radius at the north end of our project at the north end of the hotel. That's the power line drop. So, as you can see, it goes we're higher at this point. And then as you move south, you get almost level and you see the guardrail barrier. So, in between our drive lane and that guardrail barrier is where I want to put a fence to keep people from getting to that guardrail. It's a safety issue for us as well.

I think that fence needs to be continued that's going through there. You can continue that fence all the way through, right? The chain link. Yeah, the chain link. Well, the chain link belongs to MDOT. So, so here and this is a design thing. If MDOT will run a chain link fence on their property, unless you want me to run chain link on our property. I mean, I'd rather you do something nicer. I just want something that a continuous right from so on the screen there. Yep. So from I'm thinking where that I guess it's probably a merge sign where the wall ends and the grades start to blend together right there. That's my primary area of concern is from there south. What happens from there north?

The elevation keeps rising and you've got that concrete wall barrier there. I'll drive down there. drive down. Okay. Any other cross-section elevation questions? Cool. Um, so we talked about the patio actually earlier in my earlier than I had on my list. Again, if you all desire that the patio be wrapped in a sixoot fence, we're fine doing that. And the material would be complimentary. might be some sort of vinyl that'll last and you know in a color that Jerry would decide because I don't do those things. What other options would you consider

for a sixoot fence around a patio? No, besides a six-foot fence just like a rail just landscape. Yeah.

I mean, we have it landscaped, you know. I guess what's the what's the concern? So therefore, what are we solving for, right? If the if the neighbors are concerned about seeing or hearing anything, I think a sight proof fence is probably the best solution, right? Wood look made out of vinyl, right? Or again, whatever Jerry picks. Um because with landscaping if stuff dies and there's gaps and right so it's it's I don't have as much of a concern because we have an 8-ft fence and the row of evergreens. But again, if that's what you all want us to do, we'll do it.

Right. So I I think given it's fence landscaping little bit of landscaping in another fence like I think we've wrapped bubble wrapped it and duct taped it again because I'm not we're not having outdoor concerts there. It's a small patio for the guests. Um but again your your discretion

would it be a patio that guests have access 247? Jerry, do you know anything about operating rules on patios at the hotels? Um, not necessarily. What's the specific question? If there hours, would we limit access, let's say, late at night to a patio outside? Um, I don't know that they do actually. I've never heard of that or seen any signs in the hotels we've done that limit it. Carlos, was that part of the development agreement? Did we have anything with ours or not that I'm aware of?

We don't I'll just point out we don't have limits to our courtyard at the hotel. I mean at the apartments. It's simp. You know, you think about it. We have 180 apartments and those residents all have balconies or some of them have ground flooror patios. Right.

We wouldn't clearly have a vents on the first floor at night. Right. Right. So, you know, if a guest wants to go sit outside and drink a beer at 11 o'clock at night, it's, you know, the hotel is their home. And as you can see, the proximity of our patios, and I haven't heard any complaints from our neighbors to the south on on the Clover Apartments. So, um, yeah, I don't know that we'd have rules. I think if someone was misbehaving, the management would be like, "Hey, cut it out." Right? Because the other guests would complain. They're more directly impacted. So, any other questions on that? All right. So, I'll Carlos mentioned the pedestrian plan. We can certainly talk about it, but if you'll pull it up, please. I just want to talk about what I labeled and why.

Bear with me one second here. Sure.

I didn't realize zoning director became also head of it. There you go. So, what I I just wanted to tell you what I manifested here in this drawing. And I didn't do it quite as well as Carlos's Sharpie. I actually used straight lines. Just having some fun. Um, so what I tried to show in this was blue is the ex is all existing pedestrian path that's currently built as of today, which includes the wraparound Aldi. You can see the little nub in the little uh in the center of Aldi shows the ramp that comes up from Olive. We've got a ramp on which is kind of hard to see with the gray on the right side of lot three uh that comes up from there. I labeled the yellow at grade crossings where the lots all connect where you actually have to cross one of our internal drives or in the case of if you're going west on Olive, you use the crosswalk to go west toward Price Crossing. The green is the spine that we're going to extend down to the hotel as part of the development, which gets from my perspective, it gets the pedestrians in our hotel up to the services in the development. For me, I don't believe that residents walking need to walk into the development and all the way south to the hotel and around the back of the hotel or even non-residents. It's the back of the hotel, especially at night, is not a place for people who aren't staying in the hotel. We don't want them on the grounds. There's no I don't believe there's a public benefit to have public access around a hotel, especially given it backs up to residential homes. So, we're planning on terminating pedestrian access at the north end of the hotel. Um, and that's a safety concern for us. So, I'm happy to talk to Carlos. And I labeled the other two lots future development. We're not quite there yet, but that's not part of

this approval. So, I didn't want to start guessing on the rest of lot five um as to what happened. But I just want to sort of explain what I'm showing and why and the difference between what you're looking at on the right and on the left. Also, I think needs to take into consideration the form and nature of the development changing. North of the hotel was planned to be a large office building. Due to the economy, that's not going to happen. Really don't have pedestrian sidewalks running through restaurants. We'll see what we can do as we build those. We may have a wraparound, but from the hotel standpoint, I think that's going to stop. And as you can see, as it relates to Aldi, for example, what was contemplated with the drive-thru versus the Aldi changed that plan. So, that's sort of where we are. But it does seem pretty obvious that you would want to have uh another leg going from the the northeast down to the south corner.

Not necessarily. Why wouldn't you? Well, I mean, there's you're driving cars to restaurants. Yeah, but the hotel guests are going to want to walk to the restaurants or walk up there. I I just Well, that's a lot of sidewalk to not have to cross one street. Yeah, I'm talking about kind of up along here to wrap around. Then it becomes kind of a a loop, right? Again, maybe. And that's why I didn't draw it in as it relates to the hotel, right? I I can't commit to confine the development of the other lot until I know what exactly I'm doing with that other lot. No, I get that.

So, the answer is we might. But it it almost seems like that would be if you're going to put a sidewalk in, it'd almost be better to have it on that side versus the side that you currently have it on. Except that's where it's in in the development plan and approved to be. So it, as you can see, it already exists on the east side of Clover saying I'm just telling you what my thoughts are. 100%. Just because like you said, things change. Things change. Absolutely. Um, but you know, if you're a hotel guest, then you're going to be walking all the way kind of on the west side, all the way down, then have to cross over to the east. I I don't know.

Again, for the limited number of people that will actually use it. So, but that's I know Carlos wants to talk about I guess wants to have a meeting with me about this. So, we'll just as it relates to the hotel portion, this is our proposal. All right. Now, next thing up is the lighting plan. So, we received two lighting plans today. Um, and Jerry and I quickly analyzed them and I'll tell you the the difference between the two. The plan that I'm showing you has 15 20 foot tall fixtures. The al alternate plan was cheaper. It had 12 23 foot tall fixtures. We think it's better to go with the shorter fixture and more of them for a more even look and not have the fixtures be as high. What you can see on the plan if you squint really hard or blow it up really big is to show that the foot candle ratings that exist die before they cross the um before they get to the fence. So you're seeing readings, projected foot candle readings. And does everybody know what a foot candle is? So it's literally a candle that you can see at one it lights up one foot is the best it's been explained to me to light one foot area. So as you can see we're projected to have one 131 100s to 2100s of a candle at the property line which again will be shielded with the evergreens and the 8ft fence. Um that's at ground level is where those readings are projected to exist. Um I had some slight adjustments with the direction of one of the fixtures because at one point it was like 0.9 candles at one of the at one point along the fence

line. So from our perspective fewer fixtures was cheaper but they were taller. So, we thought, eh, so we went more fixtures at a lower height and again in compliance with the lighting code, which is we can't spill light onto uh the neighbors. And as you can also notice, the majority of all the um fixtures are on the east side of the hotel where the drive lane and the parking lot are. There's only three in proximity to our neighbors and they're turned at such an angle that the light will not cast into their yards. So again, trying to, you know, be fully compliant with the code, trying to make it as low to the ground as possible.

Sure, you're going to have some some lighting on the patio. So we're talking about ballards. Ballard, we're doing no wall packs. So there was some concern last time about whether any light on the building shining. The only light that'll come from the building is if somebody opens their curtains and the light is on, right? Um we will do some ground mounted ballards that'll be 3 to four feet tall. Again, well below the fence line. No big light cannons going up or anything like that. Just safety lighting.

Yeah. Any questions on lighting? Great. Now, I'm going to hand it over to Jerry because uh Jack had relayed that there were some questions about sustainability measures being used in the hotel and Jerry is much more an expert in that than I am. Thanks, Greg. Um, one of the hotel partner developers here, I've done several hotels for him in the last several years, and he is very big on sustainability. So, we've just been naturally putting several of these things into the hotels. Um, and actually, a lot of the uh energy code compliance requirements now require us to put a lot of this into the the hotels anyway. But I'll just go down a short list I made today and discuss with Greg about what we uh typically do. Um we'll have continuous insulation on the exterior of the building. Um you are allowed other options for that if you go through the U value path instead of the RV value path, but we typically do the continuous insulation on the outside to get better um energy efficiency in our exterior walls. Uh we also do high performance glass. Um we use lowflow faucets and uh plumbing fixtures with sensors. Uh we have um high energy efficient HVAC units. We do LED light fixtures. Uh we generally have occupancy sensors in the rooms. Um and we do have building automation system in the guest rooms which is required by Marriott but is above the energy code and building code requirements. This allows um the thermostat and sensors in the room to tell the system to kick back, you know, to 68 degrees when it's not occupied um when the occupants leave for the day or something. The the energy uh is saved by

um noticing that the room isn't occupied and save on the energy cost there. Uh we have lighting control systems. Um we do schedule control of temperatures. for instance, the fitness room. Unless somebody's in there, uh the temperature automatically goes down in those spaces that are not being used. Um and then we with materials in the building too, we do, you know, the low BOC paints and other things like that that are good for the environment also. So that's just kind of a short little list of things we typically do on the hotels.

Okay. Thank you. Um, do we wanna Do you I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. I got one more that you wanted to talk about. Yeah. One more thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, now let's let's go back, Carlos, to elevations. [snorts]

So, at the last meeting, you know, I heard some clear concern, especially about the first floor, um, which, as you can see in the before and the after, we've now run the fiber cement completely across the front, um, elevation, as well as extended that band over the top of the first floor so that it's breaking that mass up into um, a smaller chunk. Um, so Steve's done some work with, you know, again, just trying to to break that that mass up. Um, we didn't touch a whole lot on the other elevations because we're primarily focused on the face where the deficiencies were and where the largest mass was. Um, the new uh submitt has full details of the uh materials as well as the colors um and the panone numbers as requested. Um, and if you are interested, um, one of the things Jerry can talk about is what the Marriott prototype currently is and what we're doing. Um, Marriott is actually pushing for a monolith of materials. Um, it looks to be about 90% Ephus um, their current prototype. Um, so what we're doing is over and above. Marriott wants, like most franchises, they want everything to look as similar as it can to one another. So when you see one it looks like another. Um so we're actually going above and beyond the prototype level of fiber cement to begin with and then more so as um requested all by all of you. And um I think that concludes I think I think I covered everything that was brought to our attention at the last meeting and Jerry's on and I'm here and we're happy to answer any questions.

Okay. Uh, anybody have any questions uh for the petitioner at this time? None. I'm shocked. I'll grab a couple. [laughter] Go ahead. Um, I saw the pictures in in the in the in the brochure. Is this is this sighting on here? Is this the same sighting as what you Oh, you're talking about the the example images? Yes. Let me pull that up real quick. Get the right file open.

So, you're talking about Jackson, Michigan. Yeah. Or I can't really see it. Charlotte or Indianapolis looks like maybe the closest one of that. Yeah. So Charlotte, Jerry, correct me if I'm wrong. Charlotte looks like predominantly Ephus. Mhm. Um Jackson looks like it's Ephus. And then the where it says courtyard, as I zoom in, it looks like corrugated metal. Black painted corrugated metal. Yeah.

So that's brick over there. That's corugated. I agree. And each of these, the issue is each of these was built at a varying time. And so what Steve told us he was trying to represent for you all was, you know, if you look at the Indianapolis West one, there's a lot of masonry on that building. It also looks terrible. It's washed out and it's plain and it's it's [laughter] and I know that's a technical term. I don't know, Jerry, if you want to add something.

No, I my word for it is kind of bland. um muted and not really doesn't have any pop I don't think to it um just doesn't stand out and we were trying to be a little bit more closer to the typical prototype um which has those differentiating colors between the ephus and the fiber cement. Um that Jackson Michigan one is a really substantial contrast, right? The black and the white. Um I almost thought that black was maybe just a dark colored ephus. I'm not sure what it is. It's hard to tell from the picture, but um it it actually mimics the prototype a little bit better than the other two. Of course, you you all know that the prototype changes every few years. They upgrade the image and and so um the latest prototype that's out there right now. That's what we're trying to replicate. These are obviously a little older prototype um or Marriott courtyards. So, um, but the the Charlotte one down on the bottom, I think the reason Steve included that one is it kind of follows and also probably the Jackson one. What you all tried to suggest that we not take the Ephas down to the ground, that we break it up and um not have just such a plain facade. So, I think from that aspect it is successful. Um, I appreciate that you guys, you know, wrapped that that lower floor. Um, and I did just some Google things, you know, by searching new new Marriott Courtyards and just looking at pictures and I have to say what I saw the majority of them all had the first floor kind of wrapped. I think there was only like one or two that that didn't and it was kind of a mix. But I I am curious and I'm not an architect. I'm an

engineer. So, but it it does seem like the the east elevation, the left side just seems very uniform. And I'm not using the right term, but you know, like the the right side has a little bit more of a of a mix of kind of some dimension or, you know, some uh depth to it as well as kind of a mix of that kind of that second floor and then going up to the third floor on the right side. show. I I don't know if if that was, you know, doing something like that was considered at all for the, you know, the left side of that east elevation, similar to how it was shown in that uh that Charlotte one.

Yeah. Look, I I gave Steve the challenge and said, "You need to break the mass up. You need to cover the first floor." Um, and when you look at Marriott's prototype and you look at this, again, we we're trying to stay, we don't want to go to Marriott and say, "Oh, look what they approved." And Marriott says, "We're not going to let you build it." No, I get it. So, I mean, yeah. I mean, I appreciate it. Prepared to I'm not an architect either, but like again, this is this is our proposal is to is to build this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But did they look at anything else that was kind of similar to mixing it up? Steve couldn't be on today. So the architect who drew it couldn't isn't available today to family. Does Jerry No.

J did Jerry did you talk to Steve about what he did?

No, we just looked at it together briefly to be honest and I had looked um at the prototype drawings and I'm looking at them now too. And if you look at that um elevation on the prototype, it's um Steve's done more than the prototype definitely to help break that that whole wall up because I see what you're saying. You know, the the right side does have a little more dynamic um texture to it, the ins and then outs. But the fact of the matter is that whole left side there, all of those hotel rooms are all in a row, right? And unless you want to start adding cost by bumping extending rooms out and making them a little larger and everything, you're going to you have to do basically with materials. So, one thing is that vertical panel that has the little light strips on it over to the left there to break that up. Um

I like that on the left, the far left. Yeah. It just seems like a a very uniform block that that's it's it's the Marriott Courtyard. Look. Yeah. Yeah. That's straight off the prototype and it's at the stair tower in case you didn't realize it. I don't know if we've looked at the floor plans, but that is the stair tower there. So, yeah, makes sense. Well, I'm not sure if anybody else feels the same way. It was just a thought that I appreciate it. Yeah.

Um, also like in the Charlotte, it does look like there's some uh added like wood elements, you know, kind of on that lower level. Is anything like that being planned or anything um with a different material at the the main entrance being kind of you know well the port the portico is going to is different

yeah the portico share will have some metal similar to that Jackson Michigan um courtyard there just because we know we're going to have some steel structure that comes out there and we're going to cover it with some sheet metal um similar to this one also here. That little trellis over there, I don't think that's any longer in the prototype. Um seems kind of tagged on to me too there or tacked on. But the portico definitely will have some metal, sheet metal and and painted steel columns and everything.

Anything different with the walls around the entrance kind of to you know mark it as we're entering the because that is per prototype. It pretty much is just those same fiber cement panels right there at that entry. Yeah. Yeah. Again, Marriott prescribes what we, you know, they give you the guide book. I get it. I'm just surprised. Yep.

Yeah. And the one thing about this prototype different than some of the others I've worked on, um, they really are kind of minim minimalist materials here, right? um as few as possible. We do some of the other limited service hotels and they want you to use three, four, five different materials, but um this prototype here is really more minimal.

Chairman, can I ask just for clarification because it does seem uh in there. So I I would assume that what we're seeing here like I think there are nine windows here. There's a little bit more here. Uh, so when you're looking at that mass, it's kind of reversed here, but here you have the nine windows and then you have here an elevation that's a little longer. Is that what you're Yeah. referring to um Yeah.

Between this one's probably a smaller hotel with fewer guest rooms, I would say. Um, we have 128. That run might run 90 to 100 or something instead. Um, and our site's pretty long and narrow, so kind of lends itself to the longer stretch there. Nobody else has any thoughts on that or if you know they like the way it is, I'm I'm good. I don't feel strongly. I'm just throwing it out what I what I noticed.

All right. Any other questions or comments? Um, I just want to clarify we we won't see any of the HVAC units on the roof or anything. They're all inside the rooms or the big one will be So, the rooftop unit should be screened by the parapit. Um, and again, it's it's a limited amount of rooftop HVAC because all the rooms are individually conditioned, but you'll there'll be units for the central hallways, the pool area. So, Jerry, do you do you know what the rooftop equipment package count looks like on a hotel this size?

Yes, I do. and it's probably going to be about 8 feet tall. Um, these units keep getting bigger and bigger because the code is requiring more and more that we provide fresh air to these hotels. Um, so we probably will need to do some type of a screen wall up on the rooftop that matches or complements the exterior wall of the the hotel. Okay. Does that work for you? Yep. Absolutely. As long as you're screened. Yep. We'll screen them. Okay. Yeah, we will need to screen it. Every city is asking us to do that, so we're not surprised. Can we uh put that in as a condition? Yes, we can add that.

I'm good. Yeah. Good. Anything else? Go ahead. Can we can we go back and talk about the patio just one second? Yeah. Um just I know that you had mentioned like a screen wall, so I just want to make sure But I'm clear. So the evergreen, there's already evergreens or a barrier there. So there's the 8ft fence on the property line. Yeah. So this is what So there's the the black dash line is the 8ft fence. We're going to plant an entire row of evergreens on our side of it, the entire length of the hotel.

There'll be more plantings surrounding the patio. And Steve has drawn in a 6 foot high screen wall like U-shaped screen around it. Um, if you all want it. Yes. So, I guess my only concern is if it's only U-shaped, then if somebody would walk past that dead end that they could get to the patio in theory. In theory.

Sure. And so that's also goes back to that safety issue that you mentioned that like I I can understand why you would not want a path around, but I also would not want somebody to be able to walk in, get on the patio, and be able to get into the hotel for the safety of the people staying at the hotel either. Well, the door out to the patio has to you have to have a key to open the door. People prop those open. I've been in I I've been in enough hotels.

We'll probably have a perimeter security camera system as well for security. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I when we go to build it, is a gate a great idea? It might actually be. Um, you know, I for me the key was trying to solve the challenge of the concerns of the neighbors as it related to sound. Um, if we need to wrap, you know, there's good and bad. If it's completely wrapped and you can't see what's going on inside, that's not great either. That is true.

You know, so there's a delicate balance there. And so, you know, our message is the concern I heard was from the neighbors about noise coming off the patio. And so, for that reason, we'll put up a fence. If the security part of it, I'm going to defer to our consultants when they build it as to what the best option is. I'm not personally I'm not so sure about a fence. I I don't really think personally I don't think a fence is necessarily needed. I think some plantings around it. Um, but I would also definitely like to see some kind of I guess like security measure um just so that that the doors can't be propped open or something like that.

Sure. Yeah. I mean that's that's a design element I'll have to talk to the team about. But yeah, I mean we'll have fences fences. We'll have a sign as you come south that says, you know, p uh hotel guests only. Will people violate that? Of course. People are people, right? Right. Well, yeah. They drove through my wet new sealer at Price Crossing and they drove through the ropes and drove on to wet sealer yesterday. That was fun.

Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. If you p if you go to the floor plan of the hotel on first floor. There we go. So, zoom in near the So, you can see the general manager's office shares a wall with the patio.

Um, and there's a straight shot. If you scroll up a little bit more, Carlos, there can see out from the reception at an angle all the way down through outside, too. So, again, we're not going to want any security issues. So, know that we're going to address it. I mean, just the Clover, for example, is a fully secure apartment building. Could someone walk down the drive lane, hop over a 5-ft fence, and end up in the patio area? They abs, if they want to, they're going to find a way, but we are going to deter. Again, it's not meant for the public. It's meant for the guests. But great question. Okay. Anybody else?

Sam? No. Okay. How do we feel about that fence? Do you guys want to talk about it now? Uh, everybody feel strongly about Anybody feel strongly about having it in or not? I do. Do you like it in? Yes, I'd like it in. Perfect. Perfect. I'd prefer it in. Not strongly, but I prefer. Okay. Say it. 51% like 49% down. I mean, just a little bit. I I think the point is well taken. We've got all kind of these other things happening here. So, I don't think it would be the end of the world if it's not there, but if it's being offered, I'll take it. Yeah,

I'm I'm at a 5050. I don't I think screening with landscaping is more than plenty. I would be shocked if anybody actually walked all the way down there just to get into that patio. Right. So, Right. I just I think it's overkill, honestly. Right. So, I think we Go ahead. Well, and I think I'm less concerned about the security because people are going to walk where they're going to walk. But at the end of the day, the neighbors have come, they've shown up, they've concerned about the noise. It's one extra barrier to protect the noise. It's easier to build it now than do it later. Yeah. It's kind of my view. So, we'll do a U and then if security requires us to maybe close it and gate it. We'll deal with that as an operational issue, but at a minimum, we'll build some form of U. There'll be landscaping around the outside of it as well.

Great. It's going to match the, you know, be tastefully done to match the I can assure you that Jerry will pick tasteful colors. One of the things I do want to note, and I do entrust that you would uh and Jerry too, that you know that it's not just a like vinyl fence that you'd see in a residential area. I think the commission has been pretty lenient on on the enforcement of some of the materials per code and I that's fine. Uh but and I know it would probably be called a vinyl fence, but I would hope that it's it kind pattern in material. It will complement the hotel. Yes, 100%. It's not going to look like, oh, it's it's, you know, a dogeared sixft fence from somebody's backyard. Exactly.

Not there's anything wrong with dog eared sixoot fences cuz I have one at my house. Um but yes, I get your point. Yeah, it'll be a prof it will aesthetically complement the look of the courtyard. We we don't want it to stand out and look cheap. Yeah, I can assure you Marriott will not let us do something that doesn't complement the building that they're pretty strict about that. So, yeah. Okay. Good. Good. All right. I think uh if there's no further questions or comments from commission members, I think we'll take on some public comments. Excellent. All right. Thank you very much. I'll be here.

Does anybody in the audience have any public comments related to this uh this agenda item? Seeing none in the audience, Carl, should you please uh check online? The only person online is uh regarding one of the petition items.

Okay, good. So, uh no other uh questions or comments. No other public comments. Um do we have any outstanding issues? Carlos, you said you wanted to discuss the the road the sidewalk issues. Yeah, I I I think that's still one of the things we want to discuss with the petitioner. Uh and they're again pushing for a more comprehensive pedestrian network within the site that's that's fully encompassing. We'll be glad to work with them uh in that process within the hotel site or the project. I think the development as a whole, which includes the hotel site, I think we, you know,

which again we're willing to do, but I I see those as separate. And I mean, or are you saying no moving forward on the hotel until we solve? No, I think that there's still opportunities for the city to continue to work with you. Yeah. Uh through that process uh in there and some of it is going to be dependent as we gotten a little closer. I was going to ask but be given the time you know cuz we're starting to see a little bit of of you know things that are going to come in in the future uh in here but I I think that network is going to get further developed you know uh and integrated with whatever happens with the uh the old lot 5. Absolutely.

Yeah. I just you know I'm just curious more from a standpoint of a potential recommendation of approval for the hotel. Is it a check? want to make sure that we're going in the right direction and then that then the hotel aspect of it is is is hammered out uh in there. I still just real quickly just uh from a from a view on what I believe is in the wording of the developers agreement and and then what we have here uh you know you have it but I think you still need to define more of that aspect of it. But again, Carlos, I don't intend to have public pedestrian access to a hotel. It's not like this is and and I I appreciate it, but we developed this that concept sort of in a vacuum seven years ago and that's where we need to talk because I disagree.

Okay. All right. Yeah. I mean, I I just I would rather hold off than talk about it now, okay, with you personally. All right. So, we'll have a meeting and I guess I'll see you guys again. All right. [laughter] Yes, ma'am. Member, when you come up to me, just to state your name and address for the record.

I'm Meg Hefner. I'm at 715 North Price. And just regarding the sidewalks and as someone who walks and someone who travels and stays in hotels, when I stay in hotel, I really want a way to walk to the restaurants and to the walking areas in the community where the hotel is staying in. So, I agree with what Carlos is saying that you really, I mean, not necessarily around the north end of the hotel, but up to it and to the other things in that area and to the, you know, the greenway and the other walking areas in the area. That's what some of the people staying in the hotel are going to want sidewalk access to the rest of the community as well. Kind of a loop around.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, it doesn't need to go around the north side of the hotel, but it needs to come up to the hotel and through the development would be as a user um would be my thoughts on that. Thank you for your comment. Appreciate it. Anybody else have any public comments now that we added one? So, thank you for that.

Okay. Seeing none. Okay. So, I think we'll uh table this and we'll move on. Let you have the time. just to make sure chairman I think is what I've heard from the commission not to commit but just because by the our next meeting would be November 20th. Uh but it it sounds like in in terms of the landscaping the the noise, the grading, the materials that the commission is pretty comfortable with with with the packet as we so far uh in there. Again, we're we're still looking at the lighting. We still want to talk about the pedestrian aspects of it uh in there. But that wouldn't be anything that would hold up, you know, the next round of action, but to make sure that we, you know, we've stated what we're looking for when lot five re, you know, gets developed in there. I'm hoping November 20th the commission would would be set or ready for some uh or to consider action. Yeah.

How long do we have to put on the fence on that? The the fence by the highway. Okay. Put the fence on by the highway. How long do we have to take an action, Carlos? Pardon? How long do we have? Uh, if we if action is not taken November 20th, uh, I need a a written extension from the developer. I think, uh, we have till the end of the month, but we won't have our next meeting till December. So, got it. That right? I would like to hear from the architect about that left side. [laughter] So, well, and that's where I'm trying to get if there's something specific. We still have one member that strongly about it, but I would just like to see what kind of thoughts he had about it just to get an architect's point of view on it

and for me just to to to figure it out. Is it the the mass the mass the the overall mass along that and it's length? Mhm. Okay. That's where correct. All right. Does that make sense? Yes. That's all uniform, you know, right there. So, but I'd love to hear from the architect what his, you know, thought process was. Hopefully, Yeah. Yeah. And that that's perfect. You know, it's one of those things I don't feel strongly about it, but I would like to just hear what he has to say about that. All right. All right. Good. Good. Okay. Thank you very much for uh the discussion, presentation, and everything you've done so far. So, good, good, good.

All right. So, we'll move on to my I can't find my agenda item. Oh, there we go. Okay. Thank you, Sam. We'll move on to new business. 7:15 North Bryce Road. Carlos, I'm going to go ahead and uh Miss Dodie is going to go through the uh the next items. All right.

Hi. Uh the item uh for you 715 North Price um is a uh site plan review for a fence on a legal non-conforming lot. The fence itself um is existing and it is over the uh fence requirement as it is uh with at 4t um and it connects to a six-foot fence. The idea um is to replace and improve that uh or you know basically replace it with you know updated materials and then uh which are but no other major changes otherwise and the portion of the fence that is uh 6 foot in height would remain as it is. Um the there is one additional request to require a 5 foot additional setback at where uh Villa meets at North Price to allow for uh better visibility from for traffic but otherwise um we do not have any issues. So, uh the fence as it is depicted here uh the improved uh I I uh the improved materials would be a black uh what is that?

Oh, diminish the house. Well, there we go. Um and you're welcome to uh come up to the uh yeah, come up to the podium and state your name and address, please. I'm Meg Hefner, 715 North Price. So, this is our fence. Thanks for clarifying that it's white because it wasn't on the record, you know. Well, it is in your It is in the packet. It says black and I figured I could clarify that here. Didn't need to reprint anything. Okay. While you're here, does anybody on the commission have any questions related

I have I have a couple of questions. Um, one, did you consider any other type of fence that maybe would look more appropriate for the farmhouse that it once was in terms of like a split rail fence or um something in wood rather than, you know, an aluminum fence? Um, is there a reason why you need to go to the five foot rather than the 4 foot? It It's 4 foot. I'm sorry. Four Oh, it is 4 foot. Yeah, it's 4 foot, which is the same height as the current fence. Okay. I'm misunderstood then. Yeah.

Um is there I mean I'm the practicality is I'm curious why the fence in the first place and that and so is it to keep pets in? Um because there's not fence across the front of the property. So it's a little confusing to me as to

it. Well, now we don't currently have have pets for that. Um, you can see there's also a little strip of the fence that comes over to the to the house there. So, um, so it would have an area that would be able to confine a a dog. Um, but the main thing is that we've always had a fence there and it's a it's a, you know, 300 foot stretch along the street and we don't want people just coming through our yard. um as it is the kids who uh who are waiting for the school bus at Price and Villa do cut across our front yard to get into Castle Ray and and that's okay and we're used to that and that's fine. That's you know that but if we have if that's open there people it just opens up the whole yard for people coming in because it's a really long stretch of yard. It's really inviting. there's that whole circle of Castle Ray on the other side of it. And so we we would have people and dogs and so it won't keep the deer out. Unfortunately, they ate all my tomatoes. But um and as as far as the materials, um we didn't want a a vinyl fence both because of the look and because that gets um the gets mildew and that kind of thing. And when we figured we didn't want the black aluminum that others because that just doesn't go with our white farmhouse. Um so we were going for something white and we wanted something that's going to be less maintenance than the wood which is why the um the the aluminum. Did you want to say I'm Peter Weedenbeck. Um just one other point as to why we want the fence there. As you can see from the photograph and what we have, we we've been in the house for 35 years. Uh the fence is a lot older than

that. It is rusting, deteriorated uh steel wire. Um but the reason I want the fence is because in the back part of it, right, we used to have kids regularly uh climbing over it. And that's part of why it's badly deteriorated. uh is is uh it hasn't been an issue as much in the last few years, but we don't have teenagers in the neighborhood at the moment. But that that it is that we we'd often have people uh jumping over or climbing over the back of the fence at the back of the lot. Gotcha. Gotcha. Great. Tim,

so if I'm Carlos, if I'm reading this right, three foot is the code for the front of the yard. That is correct. Okay. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. That's why they're they're here. That's why they're here. Yes. If if they would have came in with a three-foot fence and then we wouldn't require the they would be before the commission. It it's both the height and the setback that we don't want it set back as far as a front yard one would require because it's a long villa. The sidewalks on the other side of the street um doesn't need to be set back that far. How close is How close is this to your They're about 5 ft from the curb, I think. Okay.

So, so but they're not This is a non-conforming fence currently, and we're going to allow a non another non-conforming prove a nice why they're here. Yes. We we've been Yeah, it's been uh that one was grandfathered in 60 years ago. Is there a standard for approving non-conforming in our code? because to me if it's it it should meet almost the standard for a variance and I don't see anything unusual about this property that would suggest that a variance would be

it is a very good question and our code specifically addresses that uh when the uh regulations regarding fencing were adopted that chapter was specifically made independently and the process for what I'll call a variation as opposed to a variance was given to the commission because it is an aesthetic consideration If the comm if the council would have not provided the variation process through the commission, you are correct. It would have had to gone to the zoning board of appeal and it would be based on conditions of the property and hardship. But the council through its consideration is really looking at this as more a streetscape and an aesthetic aspect of it. And therefore grants the commission the ability to grant some uh to to consider this because you have more flexibility than the zoning board does. So, is there a reason this fence can't be three feet instead of four feet?

Because kids will just hop right over if it's three feet spikes it. There are neighbors that have three-foot fence and I see them all the time and and that would not It also wouldn't look right. Just from an aesthetic point of view, a three-foot fence would not look good. And and it doesn't The aluminum ones don't come in that size. It It wouldn't It We wouldn't be able to do that. I'm personally okay with it. I think it looks nice. I think it's going to be a nice I'd like to see the material. I mean, we've been told it was black. It's now going to be white. I'd like to see the material before I

Well, that's why you have the the drawing there. Um there was a picture up of a I just saw something that went by that was like, oh, that's almost the same thing. But well, anyway, that's it's that it's white. It's a picket style. They call it a sphere point. Um I don't have the they didn't that was as much of a a photograph as they could give us. But I you know I I sort of spent actually literally years looking at fences that I see around town and what do I like and what do I think would look appropriate for our farmhouse. And this is this is what we came up with. Honestly, some of the other things that you suggested would be a lot cheaper. This is a $15,000 fence. Yeah. This is um would be similar to this, but as you could see on the other thing, it's got the the spear point, so it has sort of a look. It's not a wooden picket fence, but it's got that sort of a look. You can see through it more, which for the corner visibility is better, too. Yeah, very well similar to that. It's It's not going to have the double row at the top, just a single row and just going up to a spear point rather than that fancy thing. It's a farmhouse. We want it to look relatively simple.

Go down. That one right there is the closest one. One of those outdoor metal things. Okay. Any further discussion or questions? Are people still concerned about the material selection? Yes. I would only note that the suggested motion would need to change it from uh black to white. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, do do you want to further discuss the

I just I I I need further discussion. There's I don't think it's an appropriate style. I don't think it's an appropriate color and I I think it should be three foot and I don't I don't think that this should we should be varying from our zoning code on this. It should be placed within the setback that it's supposed to be. So, I don't think there's anything that can be said that's going to change my mind. my mind that's everybody's on their own. How does everybody else feel, you know, before we Is there anything that we need to further discuss before we call this uh motion? I I'm sorry. No, go ahead.

I was just thinking about the the setback. Um you do we have an issue with the setback? We're requesting um additional setback at the corner. Um so it is approximately five feet from the corn or from the road at the moment. So it that it would meet or I

currently the current fence ends beyond the stop sign. Where we would have this end is is before the stop sign and before the um where the cars pull up to to see what's going on on V on Price Road there. supposed behind it. Yeah, I think it I think it ends up behind it. Pro is the same

at the white bar. They're going to continue up here and then look up and down. So, we want to make sure that you know right now you you can see through there. uh but want to improve that visibility for so you want it moved further beyond where she says it's going to be at we we had discussion that the so right now what you have on your your plan it it shows it up to this post here and I'm going to assume like this is the last post yeah we're just going to do it about halfway aligning it with the perfect that's what's already been agreed to correct

I understand Sorry. Okay. Anybody want to further discuss things before we set a motion? I I mean, I guess I'll just say for the record, I'm I'm leaning more towards Petri's position. Um, okay. On it. I'm not totally convinced. Um, Petri has a number of issues. So, which are you? [laughter] All of them. I I think I think Petri So maybe I won't restate it other than to say Petri and I are generally in agreement.

Okay. Okay. Well, why don't we do this? Why don't we while everybody's getting a chance to think about it, let's just see if we have any public comments related to this agenda item and then we'll might have some more further discussion. Um you can go ahead and sit down. Uh appreciate it. Um so is there are there any public comments related to this agenda item? Okay, seeing none in the audience, Carlos, will you uh please check online? Uh, no. The only person online is uh for one of the agenda, a different agenda item. Okay, great. All right. So, um,

so chairman, I'm going to note a couple of things in in there because in the discussions with them, I mean, it it it would be in the city's best interest to get this fence replaced. Uh, but there's nothing in the code that I have authority to tell them it has to be removed. it's grandfathered and it's been there and you can look at the various Google streetscapes of how it's been there uh in there and they're looking to replace it with the same height. Not saying that that's okay uh in there uh as you look at compatibility and design. I mean essentially this is what they're trying to make it look like uh in there. We took a look at it and we've met uh at the site um and you know they're aware of like the past approvals and they saw the the videos you know we told them to talk about the videos and what the commission has authorized closer to the road. Uh this is a a good example uh of one in which now this this fence got removed and it's up here

uh in there and you know they're they're willing to make theirs you know opaque and comply with with those aspects. The fence ordinance has been really difficult to pin down to what is acceptable for the commission. Now the commission members change and and go you know and there but uh we did have it on our worklist because I I think you know uh for staff it it is getting difficult to give direction to petitioners because when we think something's not going to work it works and when we think something is going to work it seems like there's obstacles to it uh in there. Uh I think again I'll stress this is an old fence. It's det it's deteriorating that it would be in the city's best interest to get it removed. Now whether it gets replaced in kind or not uh you know I I you know I I think it's seen it best its best days long ago uh in there and the petitioner's been cooperative to work with us to to consider these different scenarios uh and and set back some there are parts that are going to stay you know I'll be honest uh uh in there you know there this is not being removed or or changed uh they have other fencing uh down on on the other side uh in there. So overall, the character isn't going to be much different uh in terms of its placement uh in there. Now, do they have to substantiate a hardship? It's a very good question. And so, but the process of the hardship is not like if you're at the zoning board of appeals. It's given the council specifically gave that task to the commission because it's really aesthetically does it enhance or is it compatible with the community and the community's values and that's for you guys to judge.

Carlos has a question. Do you speak at all as to how that three-foot number was reached? Is that codified somewhere? Is that something It is the Yes. by by the code. If if if somebody was putting up a fence here, you know, where they had no fence, if it's be between the street and the house, it should be no more than 36 in. And any uh justification you're aware of aesthetically for that 3-foot cut off? Oh, why we got to that point? I'm asking you to speculate a little bit maybe, but I I don't know. Is the question about how did we get to the three? How was

why three instead of four? Yeah. Yeah. And I that I couldn't answer you. And maybe it's half because the the tallest fence that we would allow in residential properties is 6 feet. So maybe the thought was okay, half of that can go in the front, you know, half a height can go in the front yard. Do we typically not on other buildings? It seems like the the side fence has to cannot start until the building front.

That is correct. So are but we're going to you're asking for us to approve all the way to price. Why can't it just stop at the at the house like any other property? Like why wouldn't it stop right at the front facade and just be open? I realize that they have issues with kids cutting through, but everybody has those issues that lives on a corner. Mhm.

There's not a sidewalk on that side of the street as pointed out by the petitioner. So, I don't even know why we're cons even considering moving allowing a fence beyond the house toward price. I don't One is because they can and two is what they're here before the commission is can they do it a foot higher than the Okay. So, we do allow then a fence to go from the front of the property line all the way to the back of Yes. And if I misunderstood, is that true on anybody's property? That is correct. Okay. And misunderstood.

And Petri, I agree we should look at that. I I that was the first thing that I looked at was during that code section because I don't agree. I don't I agree we should not allow that. But quoting that's what I was going to ask Carlos according to him though that per the code they're allowed. It's just the question, are they allowed to have a three-foot or four foot instead of a three-foot fence is my understanding of this. Um, my other thing is across the street from this house, it looks like there's a little white fence too as well that we just saw a little picture of. Yes. I'll go let me get to it right here. How tall is that fence?

That's 36 in. Go ahead. So, I used to live on a very unique property as well here in Alvette. Um, my side front yard was 220 ft. And I inquired about a fence and I was told I had to put a row iron fence and I could not go more than three foot high. And at the time, I had a golden retriever that could jump a three-foot fence. and was told it was that way. Nothing I could do about it. So, I totally understand that. Um, and you know, since then I've moved and I have a fence and all those kinds of things. I don't necessarily have there's a fence there. It look to me it's replacing a fence that's already there to make it look nicer and to improve the looks. And if you stop the fence to be make better visibility at the corner, I think that's helpful. One, if you stop it way back at the house, you're going to have not just kids cutting through, you're going to have bikes cutting through. you're going to have everything cutting through that corner. Um, so I I can see why they would want to keep a fence up as far as possible. And at three foot, some dogs could jump it easily. Um,

so I I I don't see the big like it's already a 4ft fence. I think improving the looks of it is well worth the the extra foot and height, I guess. Yeah.

All right. Any other further discussion on this item? Okay. Seeing none, do I hear a motion? I think we might as well I think we've talked this out. I think we might as well put put our votes in. Um, unless you would like to further discuss anything. It's okay if you don't. I'm just giving you the option. Very good. Thank you. Okay. Do I hear a motion? I'll make a motion.

Good. Good. A motion to approve a petition for a site plan review to authorize an ornamental fence variation to install a 4 foot white ornamental aluminum fence along Villa Avenue as presented in the memorandum from the Department of Community Development dated November 6, 2025, subject to any staff conditions noted therein. Motion's been made by Laura Ragdale. Do I hear a second? Second. And seconded. Carla, you please call the vote. Okay. Commissioner Ragdell, approve. Commissioner Spiegelass, approve. Commissioner Ford, Commissioner Powell, deny. Commissioner Wallock, denied. Commissioner Durgel, approved.

And the motion passes 4 to2. All right. Thank you. I appreciate it. Um, wasn't expecting that myself, but uh I guess we got some work to do on the fence the fence uh standard. So I think uh we'll be encouraged to kind of hash that out. So all right, appreciate everybody's discussion and everything. So let's move on to the next agenda item. Petri, do you mind if I borrow this? Sure. Go ahead. All right, we'll move on to item B, which is 9658 Lola sorry. La Hoya drop. All right. Who's taking this?

Oh, that would be me.

All right. And uh yes, this is uh a residential addition on a lot that is legal nonconforming. It is deficient in area and in depth. This is before you um for uh the for site plan review um because it is required based upon that and the size of the addition uh exceeds the allowed uh or what we can do administratively. It does not exceed our ability. It simply exceeds our administrative ability to approve it without your consent. So we are looking for um your review to consent to this addition. Uh we do have a few things that are uh that we would require uh and that would be uh storm water management and a revised boundary survey survey. Uh as far as the storm water management concerns go, uh there are rain barrels that are proposed. Uh and we would want to, you know, make sure that that uh meets the I'm sorry, we just have to ensure that it meets that criteria upon building permit. So otherwise uh the revised boundary survey uh should indicate the correct setbacks uh specifically in the side and rear yard but otherwise it is um you know there aren't any you know major concerns. It is a

frontfacing garage I believe which is generally not encouraged under our uh uh sorry but yeah but it is simply a it's a front-facing garage but there's really no uh or it's just simply where it was previously. Okay. Or where they are parking. Correct. Sorry. This is Yeah. You're doing just fine. Yeah. you're doing just fine. Any issues with building materials or things like that that was that we went through your review?

Not that had been noted in um you know in here although uh the materials are specified uh and were consistent with the rest of the household. Good. Okay. Great. Go ahead. I'm just curious when we look at carport to a garage, do we count the square footage of the carport and subtract that from the garage or is it No, we're tearing down the carport and the garage like I guess I'm just curious because there there was an existing structure there. It's not been closed, but how does that work? Does the garage count completely and you don't count the carport? Sorry.

It's a good question. Unfortunately, because the carport comes down prior to that placement, I have to count it as new. That that that footprint is new. And we looked at it and to see if we could justify it within code of that opportunity. And and as Don noted, I mean, this is just a little over 50 square feet beyond the threshold that that administratively we would have had uh in there. And the petition has been patient to work with us uh uh on this process that we kind of, you know, explained as we went through uh in there. But that being said too, it it's still beholden of the commission to to look at it from from its design principles and and and take a look at that. And one thing I'll note just for for Miss Dodie on on that. I mean, so it is a front entry garage. The guidelines don't discourage front entry garages, but they don't want a front entry garage that protrudes in front of the house uh in there. And in this nature, it's flush flushed with that elevation. So I think she was right, but I just wanted to stress that. I appreciate that. That's good. Any Go ahead, Tim.

I just have a question. I think that's great, but so the rain barrels, just out of curiosity, would that count as a retention area? Correct. Because of the the threshold uh for doing a engineered detention area is 1,200 square ft. So, anything between 4 any any improvement that's between 4 and 800 square f feet, they have to do something. and we refer to the MSD um examples that they have on their their site and what rain barrels, rain gardens, and mulch areas are are acceptable. Is great. I think it's great.

Petitioner, the petitioners are here. Um Mr. Misho, um if you would like to approach and you have anything to say. Well, I don't know if questions or comments from staff. You're still on the line. [laughter] Does anybody have any further qual? Just just to clarify, so the materials are going to match the existing edge of the house. It's going to be the same masonry on the bottom and the same siding above it. That might be a question for the petitioner. Maybe the petitioner could Oh. Uh, but please state your name and address.

Uh, yes. Daryus Micho at 19658 La Hoya. Um, yes. The garage, proposed garage will be master sighting and the same materials that already exist. Like I said, it's a single carport. Trying to just do a twocar garage and uh for safety for you know the hail damage storms protect our cars and the safety of my wife, kids and family. Yeah. But there's it is sighting or the materials are sighting. It's not a mix of bricks and siding. Correct. Oh, there is brick. Oh, there you can see it better. Yes. Brick at the bottom then side on our match the existing. Okay, perfect.

Good, good, good. Thank you. Thank you. Say, uh, is there anything you want to add, you know, to to this um, right now? Walk us through anything. Uh, no. I mean, pretty uh, straightforward. Just a basic two-car garage. Nothing special. Yeah. Just going to keep it the same and uh, hopefully it works out. Yeah. Very good. Saybody, while you're here, does anybody have any uh questions or comments for the petition? All right. I have a question. Go ahead. Um because I live over there and there's another house where they did the roof, but they did like a little bit up. Are you going to go still flush with the addition?

Yes, definitely. Uh flush with it. Match it. Yeah. All the way across. Okay. Okay. Okay. Any other questions for the petitioner? All right. Seeing none. Appreciate it. Thank you. At this time, we'll see if there's anybody in the audience that has any public comments related to this agenda item. I see none in the audience. And Carlos, this uh the person that's online is for another agenda item. Is that right? All right. Yes, sir. All right. That being said, is there any further discussion? Hearing none. Do I hear uh suggest do I hear a motion? I'll make a motion.

Go ahead. Okay. Uh motion to approve a petition for site plan concept storm water management and community design review for a 556.5 foot residential garage edition at 9658 La Hoya Drive as presented in the memorandum from the department of uh community development dated November 6, 2025 subject to any staff conditions noted therein. Motion's been made by Sam Wal. Do I hear a second? Second and seconded by Laura Ragsdale. Carlos, you please call the vote. approve. Commissioner Ragdale, approve. Approve.

Commissioner Spiegel Glass, sorry. Approve. All right. Commissioner Ford, approved. Commissioner Powell, approved. Commissioner Wallock, approved. And Commissioner Dgo, approved. Okay. So, the motion is passed six to zero. The next step in in the process is to continue the permit review uh in there. and then uh I'll talk to the inspectors tomorrow and then try to get you an idea of of the time frame. Okay, appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, we'll move on to the next uh item. Uh number C, 13 Crosswinds Drive. Don, are you handling this? Yes, sir. All right. It's the Dawn show tonight. [laughter]

You're doing great. So I think that um or I may have made a mistake earlier but uh this 13 crosswinds um is a legal non-conforming lot. It is deficient in depth and area. Uh this is a new single family home which always come before PCDC. So there's no you know administrative approval for that. Uh there have been a number of concerns about this property. Uh and as far as the flip my notes over uh with the there are a number of things to finalize. We received a new set of plans yesterday that have not been incorporated into this uh presentation whatsoever. Uh we have not had time to review those and it's not listed among the final plan submissions that it would have to be uh consistent with or that our approval would have to be consistent with. Uh but that is I think that's something we can do administratively. things uh that we would need uh to pay attention to most closely would be the final, you know, to finalize the site plan um and the storm water plan with our storm water consultant to have, you know, that fully reviewed. the tree protection and replacement as far as the most recent uh present or most recent plans which are the October 13th uh we required some you know or we

requested some additional information on the trees uh as far as the seven replacement trees that they are proposing. We do not have the species uh the new plans. I do not know if that contains that information. Uh there is one tree in the front yard that is deemed uh good to fair. Uh however, it is a pin oak. Nope. No. I'm sorry. It is simply I think I'm getting the two confused or I'm getting it confused with the next proposal. My bad.

That's right.

So this one we still have an issue with the tree uh replacement. It is not the that we sorry now that I now that I know that I have uh confused I've got to rewrite my um brain cells. So uh two replacement trees would be required by code um if they uh because they are proposing to keep three uh or protect three trees. So uh as far as but they are deficient still in one tree. The new plans may account for this. I cannot as as I've said cannot attest to it.

Cannot attest to the new plans. So uh have you looked at the new plans at all just to see what anything major changes if any of these things have been checked off? No. Okay. uh as far as uh and you know we've obviously we we've listed it all out but the uh proposed the storm water management is is key to this uh it runs uh 13 crosswinds I believe that towards the north which I'm not very familiar but it's a um

well it doesn't sound like we're going to be able to do much action on this tonight, right? But I still think it would be worthwhile while we have, you know, if the petitioner is here if he could come up and maybe kind of go over briefly as to what the changes are. Well, I'm going to spend five minutes just to see what changes are done to the plans to see if he's addressed any of these concerns that have been expressed. Is the petitioner here? Okay. Oh, I'm sorry. Um, the petitioner is online. Um, and Carlos is doing his IT magic, which

he would put most, um, IT managers to share. [laughter] Good. So, maybe we could just briefly hear from him that he could kind of go over what's what the new plan said has, if it's addressed any of these issues, um, and, uh, then we'll kind of table it for the next meeting. Okay. All right. Harry, um, you want to try speaking? Yes. Uh, can you hear me? Yes. Um, name and address?

Yes. My name is Harry Freeman. I live at 14 Woodacre Road. Um, I am the builder and basically I guess my question is is we met with Carlos and your storm water engineer out at the site. The plan that we resubmitted uh earlier this week or yesterday was basically a revision of the site plan to talk about and implementing what we all talked about at the site. Um we're not changing any of the house or any of that. And they added the additional tree needed which we are going to meet the tree prevention. you know, your ordinance, whatever is removed has to be replaced, which we have no issues with. Um, so I mean there's really no I guess my my comment is is we met with them and we basically implemented what they wanted for the rear to have the where the current storm water in the back of that yard is a current storm water concrete basin that's all broken up and the new engineering plans showing a swale to keep the water in the same direction that it is today. Um, we're not really changing it. Uh, we're just kind of cleaning it up, but we met with um, and I I guess Carlos, you can speak for the conversation we were there. Uh, that plan is everything that we spoke about

with your engineer. So that chairman, if I can go ahead and address that on there. So yes, uh, Mr. Freeman's correct. We we did meet with uh uh Mr. Freeman along with an adjoining property owner uh to the back to talk about this channel that they have uh that runs in the rear of the property. It's one of these MSD lines where you have, you know, built infrastructure and then it stops and the pipe just lets the rusts go uh in there and then it kind of feeds it its way southward uh in there. So the the plan set that you you have here, it looks like Mr. Carwell noted this was the the plan we got yesterday. I think Mr. Freeman's right. You know, we do have this from yesterday. Uh I think Jack put in here what we're looking for within the conditions of the approval. And there you can see the storm water detention pit is now in the front yard. It got moved from the rear in here. And then they're actually going to connect to the MSD main. So all that roof runoff will go into a detention pit. Once the detention pit gets full, it'll actually release into the MSD system u in there. So,

is that allowed? Yes, correct. It is. It's a a nice aspect. Um there before MSD did not allow it. The uh engineer that uh Mr. Freeman is working for um has done that before with a couple of other uh developers in in our area uh and has managed to get those uh set. What MSD doesn't want is the the downspouts to directly go into the main line, but if you can hold it for a while, like you in a detention pit, then you can release it into the main line. So that way when the storm passes, it's not overwhelmed because you're kind of holding off some of it. Correct. So anyway, long story short, so yes,

I Mr. Freeman's correct. I think in the conditions it's noted what what staff needs, but we got this yesterday uh in there and apparently I mean they they did turn it around quickly after we met on the 8th. Uh but we didn't get a copy of it till yesterday. Has the stormwater consultant reviewed this yet? Not the finalized plan, but it incorporates what the stormwater consultant talked about and he was there. Correct. Mhm. Okay. Now, we would still in those conditions want to send it back just to make sure or verify it to take a look at that. And I think uh Mr. Carwell and and Sto have the conditions listed on the staff report if it was considered. Okay. Okay. Well,

and then there is a How comfortable do you feel with uh potentially, you know, moving on? They've been very cooperative in this one because in this case, one of the conditions is that the city's requesting that the petitioner provide a drainage easement

on that property because we we we're aware of how MSD has this set up and the issue. and we don't have issues, but the conditions that are along here that go further down to the south, if you bear with me, I'm going to pull up a a Google map in there. And while we don't have a solution because we're developing on a lot bylop basis, uh when we talk about our storm water master plan, uh hopefully within the next couple of months, um we're looking to be a little bit more proactive and at least obtain, uh an easement. Uh so if we ever get in a position uh with MSD for financing or improvements uh we we would have secured you know what's necessary on the property. So bear with me one second here. And you can see this is the outline. And then back here is, you know, it it opens and then there's a concrete like a ravine that you can see runs here. It runs here and then drains down to our neighbors to the south.

Are there any issues with that to the neighbor on the south? as long as we're cognizant of how much improvements and volume we're adding to it. So given that our code requires that they have to have this detention pit, the answer is no. Right now, as people add driveways, pools, patios in there, they're they're add, you know, that that it is my belief because you have another petitioner here uh that backs up to this that's on here for a different problem that that inlet picks up everything all the way up to old bottom uh and and Dealman, right? So,

yeah, I got it. I got it. So, long story short, I think m Miss Dod's correct, but I think within the staff report, we have the conditions outlined uh for consideration about getting a final site improvement plan to allow the consultants final review, the drainage easement, and the final tree protection and replacement plan. Okay, correct. Uh there was uh one one item I think Mr. Carsville kind of noted and I think this is what Miss Dod's alluding to. Uh bear with me one second here because it was kind of it was on the it it was on the rear of the plan where the architect called out the wrong size door.

Yeah. And it's good for the commission to be aware uh in in here. But and I kudos to uh to Don and Jack for catching catching that. So if you look at the building footprint and here it is right here and you're going to look at the first floor there. Here's the garage. And then here's the the the the k the uh the mud room and washroom and then the kitchen area. They're actually creating this not it like it's not a it's a unenclosed or enclosed covered porch area. So the wall actually extends all the way up to here and then you have a an exterior wall that runs here and runs here and then kind of jags here. But this is all open. So when you look at that elevation in the back What you see these windows here are actually way or somewhere back here. Uh so you actually have a like an interior elevation here and an interior elevation here.

Aren't those three windows part of the kitchen? Yeah, I I think you were down here. Bear with me one second. here. I think that's part of the kitchen cuz I don't think they he's got uh windows on that back end.

Yeah. So, the these are the three window kitchens, but this back wall here, you have a wall here, and you have the wall here. And this side here looks like this cuz they're going to have a like a fire, a metal firebox here. And you can see this right here. So, you would actually be inside this area here. And then on this side here, you would see this side and you would have doors to go into behind these windows uh in there. What's that?

Well, basically, it's a it's a slider door that's on the inside of a covered porch leading into the kitchen that the architect called out the wrong size door, which is being corrected, which would be more, I think, since you can't see it from the exterior. Um, it's it's being corrected as of as soon as we got the notes back from you all. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean he had it as a five foot door. You can't walk through a five foot door. Right. Right. Right. Right. Okay. All right. All right. Good. Is there I I thought I saw something about a garage issue.

It's the design principal. Yeah, the front entry garage. It's not prohibited. It's not even necessarily uh discouraged, right? So, um there are a great many front-facing judges. I just wanted to make sure I understood that. So, okay. All right. Does anybody have any questions or comments uh to the petitioner? Okay. Seeing none. Um um I guess we need to take some public comments on this, but I I guarantee you we have nobody out in the audience that's going to want I got one neighbor

and we already got the the ex the panelist uh on there. So I think we'll move on with that. Um so if there's no further discussion, uh do I hear a motion? Before we do, not to prolong this, but is any we haven't talked about the aesthetics of the house at all. I assume everybody's okay with it. I'll also note in your report as a request from the commission members, you have the three previous homes that were developed by this developer. So, just FYI, is that all siding or is that masonry or stone on the bottom? I

It's a first floor is uh all masonry. Then you have some uh siding and then some uh hardy board shingles uh up on the gables. Thank you. And what was the concern that you had with the three previous homes, Carlos? No. Uh the commission had requested that we provide uh like past history of homes that have been submitted by by a petitioner. Yeah. Yeah. So we're not getting too much sameness. Right. Right. Right. Sure. Okay. I don't see that.

It'll be in the in the written report component. Uh but staff didn't have any um notes on elevation articulation or any you know grouping of uh or excessive materials, you know. I I don't necessarily either. I just thought I should bring it up before we I appreciate that. Thank you. That's great for completion. That's great. So, do I hear do I now hear emotion, Sam?

I don't have my thing up. Uh yeah, I'd like to make a motion. Uh motion to approve a petition for a site plan, community design, and concept storm water management review for a new single family home at 13 Crosswinds Drive as presented in the memorandum from the Department of Planning and Community Development dated November 6th, 2025 subject to any staff conditions noted therein. Motion's been made by Sam Wik here. Seconded second and seconded by Tim Spiegel glass. Carlos, you please call the vote. Commissioner Ragndale, approve. Commissioner Spiegel, approve. Commissioner Ford, Commissioner Powell, approved. Commissioner Wallock, approved. Commissioner Joel,

approved. And the motion passes unanimously. The next step is uh submitting those revisions and then applying for the building permit. Very, good. Not approved. Thank you very much, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Now, we'll move on to item D 95 5D. 9 9552 Old Bonham Road. Appreciate your patience, guys, waiting for this. So, yeah, exactly. Uh, is this Carlos or Don? It would be me again. Don. All right.

So, uh 9552 Old Bottom. Uh, it is a new single family home which comes in front of PCDC no matter what. Uh it is a conforming lot uh as far it meets the uh width uh and depth and area that are necessary for a single uh family residential lot in this city. our main uh I guess concerns and issues um although fairly mild in this one uh are the tree replacement. And for this one, this is where I was where my mind was with the tree replacement. Uh there is only one tree that is listed on the property as to be in fair condition. Uh but and it is an oak tree, but it is a pin oak tree which is known to be problematic and um I know that it's actually specified within the documentation, but it's prone to a specific specific disease uh that causes blight. And um it would be helpful for staff to get clarification from the commission as to what um you know are there certain types of trees that we are not looking to protect necessarily. Uh and maybe that is a sign from uh invasive, you know, species that are identified to be invasive like honeysuckle and and or uh honeyloust, things like that. But uh for a tree that is not invasive but is you know not exactly you know the best kind of tree

and it is in fair condition you know is that tree you know worth protecting or is it something that we would rather see removed and replaced. Uh so that is kind of the uh discussion here. Uh there is also an excess rightway uh that is um pictured right there. Perfect. uh that right of way we would like to see the petitioner acquire um and record uh and uh in order to consolidate I I don't believe that we know the the full history of how that right of way came to be excess uh you know or what its genesis is um

so there's no owner to it that's correct that is correct

for grips freeland. No, that is not what we're saying and and the petitioner um appears like he's approached that one. Uh the other is or not issue but thing of note is that uh they're proposing a double driveway apron. So there would be a U-shaped driveway uh in front of the property uh to and which would be not exactly unique. Uh there are several you know uh residential bu you know houses that have double aprons. Um but it would be something to consider uh especially on such a busy road as old bottom. That way they don't have to back into

well you know um is are the excessive with excessive aprons is does that create I mean you're talking about a single family residential so and not like a multif family you know so you're not talking about like an increased traffic necessarily but the more aprons there are you know from a planning standpoint purely the more aprons there are the more incident uh or more likely or higher uh likeliness of incident of a you know a person who's walking coming in contact with a car because they're using the apron. However, this is a single family residential building and we would hope that they would be cognizant pulling out of the driveway. Is that you something I can guarantee? No. However, you did make, you know, the uh a a good point that uh the double apron might enable them to pull forward instead of backward, which is also safer for pedestrians.

The other side of that though is you could have a a little turning radius. You don't have your mic on. I retract. [laughter] Come on. It's okay. Go ahead. No. No. The other part of it is instead of having a turning radius and having two cuts is there's actually a turn a little turning lane in that too as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. So,

well, I think there's two there's two other points. One is there's plenty of us that have just a plain old driveway into Oban. I mean, if you just are patient, you can get out on Oban with no problem. That's the first thing. Second thing is we just heard about water runoff. The more pavement we have, the more we're going to have runoff and it's going to affect downstream folks. And I disagree that this road is so busy that you have to have a circular drive. I realize that we're putting up a McMansion.

That's not something that was actually stated by the petitioner. I am simply stating the what you know some of the value is to I understand so I just want I understand what you're saying I'm just saying I think it's it's contrary to you know our whole discussion about storm water and I I don't think it's a fair statement to say that old bottom is such a busy road that you need to have a circular drive not I don't have one I get out just fine never had income come close to

and we don't have um an issue with the total with the lot coverage. Um they are under the uh they they are under their limit for lot coverage. Um did you say something about the western elevation the articulation? Yes, there is a um like a a monolith uh as it were uh uh 28 undisturbed feet of sighting along that west elevation. So, it would be something that you know we may or may not see as a design flaw.

Okay. All right. Anything else? Any questions or comments for Don? question and maybe it's for the petitioner is um the tree you asked about the pinn oak and I think that's a much longer conversation potentially but if it is the the fact that it's going to be removed because it's a pinnoke or just because it's in the way of the driveway. It's not proposed to be removed. It it isn't it isn't here. Oh. Oh, it is proposed to be I apologize. I misread and I guess I wasn't I didn't think it was but it's not just because it's a pinnoke. It's probably because the location I assume

they're they're in review. Let's see. In reviewing this, a petitioner applied for a demolition permit about a month ago and it was something that they hope to discuss with the commission. It may be for another night. Uh but we were concerned about issuing the demolition permit because the tree was identified as fair uh in there. Typically sometimes these go through the commission first before demos are applied for and therefore the commission is making those decisions. But here that decision was put onto staff and we were concerned uh taking on that since the ordinance was new. Developers been patient with us in there. But we looked at this tree, these two trees cuz in the they in in an aerial view they look great, but when you go in there, uh this one has several deadlands. The arborists, and I'm not questioning the the the arborist, they're they identified it as in poor condition. This one was in fair condition, but when you look at it and you can see all the goals all over. In addition to that, there is a gas line that runs right here already. And you have a driveway. They're not going to keep this driveway, nor are we going to let them keep this driveway after building a house here uh in there. I am more concerned about the resident five years from now and the impact of trying to save a tree that we we don't believe is going to make it uh in there. uh however there's not an opportunity to you know given that the the ordinance is is new and again I think when you look at the an area or if you don't know all the the things behind the tree and its placement it it really makes you question what you know what did we just adopt if they have to take those two down uh in there but they're they're bad the report indicates this is in poor condition it does have some dead limbs this one is full of

galls and there's utility infrastructures that run underneath and then the driveway disruption is, you know, whether they even kept that driveway or not is going to impact the the longevity of that tree uh in there and we just want to make sure that the commission's aware. I think it's it would be in the city's best interest to get it removed. Uh Po drops those pointy balls, right? Yeah. What is that one? Like they're like little acorns. A sweet cup. Okay. Okay. Obviously, I don't know my trees. [laughter] Yeah, I know. I've had them. Yeah.

So, okay. That being said, so of the the number of trees on the side, you have the the the arborist report. uh the developer is willing to replace all the trees uh plus one because of the size of the lot uh in there and we have the the conditions in what those trees have to be replaced um in there and I think uh they have not stipulated um unless there are more recent plans that uh what the replacement uh trees would be. So that would be something that we would require. Okay. And uh and we do want them to choose off of the native species list from the Missouri Department of Conservation. They have to. It's not a question.

They have to. Yes. Okay. Good. Any more questions right now? Otherwise, let's bring the petitioner to see if we can kind of get through some of these. Who from the audience would like to come up? Remember to state your name and address for the record. addresses or uh we have if they start coming up then we'll ask them. No, I have a four. Oh, you have four? Yeah. In all of it. Yeah. Your primary. Thank you. 650. Okay. Drive. My name is Solage. So, what's the questions? Um well, there was

three about the tree. We have a replacement plan. Actually, it's supposed to be on a file already, right? So, we have all replacement plan. You want to keep the tree? I'm fine. It's going to be on your side in five years to replace it. I think that was my misunderstanding about the pen oak being kept. Uh but the replacement trees need to be off of uh need to be provided uh from the Missouri Department of Conservation. So the replacement trees the species need to be specified. Oh, is everything specified? What kind of tree? Everything says it replacement tree. To the best of my knowledge that's the one thing we don't know what 1 2 3 4 5 6 you see it you could just go up

will be yet right here and what type there is a say canopy tree canopy canopy tree but the the code requires that they be uh called out like you see this eastern red butt or ash uh but there's a certain selection that you have to pick from uh that's accessible uh through the Missouri Department of Conservation So,

okay. Um, there are some questions about that uh western elevation, about the articulation. Um, and is there anything we could do to kind of break up the the mess with that? Remember, state your name and address for the right. Pavanchuk, address 101 South Brent Avenue. Um, what can we do to break up that mass? Yeah. Um, I'm not sure what the desire came to make it all brick, but we made it all brick. So, another alternative would be to add to bring the side material to that side.

Yeah, the brick's good. I mean, I It's nice that it's all brick. Um otherwise it would be to introduce sort of but well with the no other windows or we don't remember that if it's Can you go up and see what kind of room is that? That's a master bedroom there. Master bedroom on the left. Right. Mhm. We have a windows on the back from master bedroom. Yeah. I don't want to put the windows on the side because I'm going to look on my neighbor. Yeah. Side right generally, you know, side windows side side windows. I'm going to my I'm very sure my neighbors not want to miss his house. You could do elevated windows. True. You know, clear story windows.

Some high windows. Yeah. Player story or I've even seen people kind of put like a like a small roof line, you know, you know, kind of wrap it around between some brick coursing. Is that what you is that what you're Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

I I'd like to see something. I mean, honestly, I'm not in love with the design of this home, particularly that um wall right there, that straight up and down wall compared to the houses on either side. To me, this house doesn't really look like it fits within the character of those two. So, uh, I don't know what exactly that is, but, um, I'd like to see something a little bit more aesthetically pleasing in in the character of the other houses surrounding it. But you you look on a house across the street, it's exact same.

Well, I don't like that either. I'm talking about this house, though. A house if it's just too many house in Albano look exactly like that on a street. Yeah. Yeah, I I can understand that. But Most of the houses, they're kind of a budget h homes that were built in the 70s during a housing boom. They're fairly there's not a lot of articulation there. They're small scale and that's kind of why they look kind of houses that built there are larger. So therefore, they're kind of similar in a sense to what was done before. Just will there be any with the side of the house that the you know uh

it's a formal move. So well that the that the side won't be just flat. It will have some protrusions or I think that the mentioning was like for that almost like a fake roof line or you know I'm thinking of something just something. Yeah. So, I was trying to think if that was if this picture is just not capturing that kind of, you know, 3D element that may break that up

where it doesn't look so bad on a 3D versus 2D. Is there anything like that or is there anything you can add? Yes, we Yes, we can can add some extra brick work. We can potentially add some windows. Um those will be the moves. I'm not sure what you mean by a fake roof line. Oh uh like an eve, you know, like an overhang or something like that. Oh, just an extended overhang. Exactly. Just connect the two there. Think. I see. Yeah, I think that would help actually. Yeah, because they're in line basically.

Okay. Um, okay. Then was there concern about the the the two the driveway adding the extra apron? Um, I personally think it's fine. I know you don't, but but um, have you guys had any thoughts about that yourselves based on some of the comments uh, that were uh, made here tonight? driver. No, I think I think it is advantageous for that really. It's kind of medium busy road, but no, just it's really busy in 8:00 when the school day and 2:30. So, it's a traffic stay up to the even pass to the house.

Yeah. For the school, the school. What you think about delivery truck? Amazon, FedEx all the time. I'm driving there every day because I'm living that's the street, right? If it's Amazon, drop the truck. It's 40 foot from the street to the house. How long time it take for the Amazon unload the material and come back and everybody stay behind it. Yeah. What about in the morning and a school day, right?

It's not only what about the emergency like emergency truck or fire truck. There is no way. So people can is only one way and one one line one way and one line back. People even cannot move anywhere. Let the emergency truck going through right here is what they like circle driveway. I think it's good solution to kids just everybody safe. Right. Plus there is a sidewalk. How many kids on ebike going through sidewalk right now in the school day? Is it right? I have no idea. That's a good question. So many people so many kids on the ebike

from the after school they going home in the summer. I mean like when the warm outside so many people so many kids they driving so fast on the sidewalk. Yeah. If it's people just pull back from the traffic. Yeah. They cannot see right. It is a problem. Right. Busy streets. There's definitely a lot of them on and a lot of this my neighbor has like it's only what I I tend to agree you know with that approach myself. So

then And you know some in regards to the other concerns uh like the storm water uh that the the driveway extension that the up component of it uh if there you know limiting it to 10 ft I guess if it truly serves just as an exit or uh in there uh looking at permeable materials or in lie of hard you or having the concrete where some water can uh or stay through or looking at other options to that. Yeah. Um I mean we are complying with the impervious calculations. Right. Right. I think we're under

but I don't think we calculate the driveway. Correct. We don't. We don't. So no. No. So that that's not factored in. So kind of seeing if there's any other best practices or things like that that could help mitigate her, you know, control to balance out, you know, I think the need for the the loop, but see if there's anything else that could be done. Rain garden. Well, the civil engineer is not I think we can I know how wide is that driver right now. You have a 14 on the left side. I don't know what the 10 right. You got a 12 foot wide.

12 wide. I'm just throwing that as an option. You know what I mean? But hopefully you see what ideas and it may be something right here instead of these coming up around this way that they kind of just hold up internally. Say that again, Carlos. What What are you suggesting? that uh within the space, you know, that the the driveway kind of be redirected to drain in here. And there's some type of rain garden in here. There's a really good uh project.

Okay. Right here. Where the petitioner kind of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. drives the water into there. And there's another one just down the block, too. I think this is it.

And these streetscapes are a little bit older, but they're they're worth looking at. You can see how they they you know, for that excess asphalt, you know, they have this totally fine. What's that? It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Go. It's not not any problem. Okay. Fantastic. I don't see any problem. I would like to do it. What's that? I I would like to move it. It's fine. That's fine. [laughter] All right, that sounds good. So again, the the the principal goal is to get these arrows here reverse to go back in here. Yeah, we can do this. Very good. All right. Any other further questions or comments for the petitioner?

All right, I think we're good. Thank you. I'll ask if there's any public comments. Seeing none out there. And do we have anybody online? We have nobody online. All right. Good. Good. Any further discussion? Okay. Do I hear a motion? Sam's not going to give a motion. I can tell. Do we need to wait for that side wall to be fixed though to see it? Oh, use your see what it are we going to see any

proposals for how to handle that side of the uh oh I mean we could work with the petitioner on the elevation articulation and things like that if you um Ole we we can only have comments up at the but you and you you're welcome to come back out. I'll I'll clarify that the petitioner just agreed that he would be willing to add windows and do some other articulation on the side that would be reviewed with staff. Does that sound appropriate? You okay with that, Carlos?

Yes. Or the commission would like to take action that also a stipulation that we show you the revision when it comes back, you know, before the permit's issued. Sure. that that would be great. They seem to be very willing to work with us, you know, with everything. So, I'm okay with that. How how comfortable does everybody else feel? Okay. Okay. Good. Good. That being said, do I hear a motion? I see a motion on the screen if anybody would like to make it to move this along, especially that it's 9:30 already.

All right. I guess I'll do it. Uh motion to approve a petition for a site plan community design and concept stormwater management review for a new single family home at 9552 Old Bottom Road as presented in the memorandum from the department of planning community development date November 6, 2025 subject to any staff conditions noted therein. Moer motion's been made by the our stellar motion giver Sam. I'd like to amend my motion by saying in addition to the staff conditions um also the condition that the further articulation on the side of the building we discussed is reviewed by staff and presented to uh the commission

as well as the addition for the uh rain garden in the front with the driveway sloping in. Yes. Was there any other things that we went over and discussed? I don't believe so. So I think that would you accept that amendment? Yes. All right. Motion's been made by Sam Wallik. Uh, do I hear a second? Second. And seconded by Tim Spiegelass. Carlo, should you please call the vote? Commissioner Ragsdale, approve. Commissioner Spiegelass, approve. Commissioner Ford. Commissioner Powell, deny. Commissioner Wallock, approved. Commissioner Jurgel, approved. The motion passes 5 to six. Five to one, excuse me.

All right. Good, good, good. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Sorry for the long wait. Okay, we'll move on then to uh other business. Uh number A, rooftop solar panel installations. Chairman, I'm going to jump if it's okay to be seven Lisa Drive because I do have a representative here. Absolutely.

Uh in there. And basically, we're just bringing this to the commission's attention. These were the the below are the approved uh building plans uh that that the commission approved back in June of 2025. uh they had the property sold and the owner wanted some modifications. They're adding more more masonry. Uh we just wanted to inform the commission um regarding to that and just bring it to the intent was to bring it to the intention they they uh have brought samples if the commission would like to see uh in there and they've done some modifications but overall this furthers the the you know our goal of trying to get more masonry on the on the structures. I think it looks good. I agree.

Yeah. I' I'd love to see the sample since you've waited so patiently. Little show and tell. Yeah. Yes.

Anyways, this is Alex Martin uh with Muel. See if this is stand up here. Grant Cre. There you go. Yes. I'm Alex Barlme with McKelby [clears throat] Homes. We're the the developer for the project. Um, as Carlos stated, we originally submitted this. We were specking the house. Yeah. And literally, I think the the day before we got the permit, we sold it. Um, the homeowner was looking to make changes,

be a little bit more appealing to what they were looking for in the house. So, um, as we're looking at there, we have Peter Gray architectural shingles. Um, this is the stone that's presented there. That's mostly uh on the right side of the house and then a little bit on the second floor windows there. Um, and then there's brick that is mostly along the front of the garage as well as the front of the house near the front door. So, and then rest of it is hardy board siding in uh cobblestone. Good. Good.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And those materials look nice, I think, at least. I don't want to speak for everybody else, but Good. Good. Thank you very much. Carlos, you got what you needed? Yes, sir. All right. Good. Good. Thank you very much for bringing that in. Sorry for the the wait. Okay. So, then we'll move on or move back to rooftop solar panel installations. 800 North Price. Correct. We're just informing the commission that 800 North North Price has applied for a building permit to install solar panels. They will be facing eastward at the rear of the property. They're all on one plane so they meet the criteria for uh for staff to to initiate the the permit review. Uh but we always bring these to the commission's attention.

Good, good, good. Appreciate. Looks great. I'm glad for the additional solar power. Okay. So then we have data centers.

Real quickly, uh there's a definition for data centers under the NICS about what they do. I think everybody's kind of heard about data centers recently. uh we were asked to take a look at our code and what what are what what are permiss permissible and what isn't. Uh there is some concerns that have been expressed regarding data centers for all for various reasons but they're not allowed in our commercial districts. Uh but in our light industrial districts because we use a 2007 uh classification system they can fall under warehousing. They can also fall under uh computer and data processing and service centers. both of them by right, meaning that if there's an existing building, they can just apply for their permits and occupancy and start operations. Um, given that there are concerns about their utility usage, noises, economic impact, air quality, electronic waste and disposal, water quality impact, lighting, security, um, you know, we were asked to kind of look into that and see if we should put some regulations in place to control them. I don't think we're in in any case trying to prohibit them. Uh they're appropriate in in certain areas and there are concerns when they're located in other areas and the best way to control that is through a special permit process that gives the commission the ability to to consider something on a site by-sight basis uh in there. I will note you know Charter Spectrum has a major facility here in ette we are the core of all the internet that goes through Charter and Spectrum uh in here and that's called a a net a network operating center [snorts] uh which is different from a data processing center uh but they kind of almost fall under the same umbrella. We're not trying to address n the network operations because though you know um a data center uses network operations for like for the traffic to get distributed. So it's it's a completely different type of thing. Uh charter has been here for for ages um in there and

operated in in our industrial park uh in there and we I don't believe we want to impact or or create any non-conforming uh typical use. So that's one of the concerns. So our recommendation is to develop a definition for data centers limited to the light industrial districts as a special permit use only. Given that as a special permit, we can look at conditions of requiring a a setback for residential properties, require noise mitigation plan, set minimum land area standards, require additional screening above and beyond the code, and and set up some type of building performance standards. So, we'll get that drafted and we just wanted to bring that to the commission's attention.

I think that's great. What about utility usage? Do we have any control over that or the potential impacts if something like that moved in how that impacts the rest of our

as a municipality? I don't believe we do uh something we can inquire with the uh in that because utilities are controlled are through the are controlled by the state through the public utilities commission and the public utilities commission can make uh uh I don't want to say exceptions but carve out ways and means to facilitate those techies like they do for aluminum plants and all that. when we have a like somebody that's a really utility a big eater of utilities I mean it's great for the city because we have a utility tax however the state has intervened in in in many of these and if we we're not in that receipt then yes it's a loss on for the city uh and I think that's what a lot of these communities are expressing while there may be uh utility um like they eat up a lot of utility uh but the way the process and the market's been working is like they don't get taxed the same way as you would for running your your heater or air conditioning at home uh in there. So,

gotcha. Don't know that specifically answers what you're asking, but that's why we have the concern is utility uh in there on the sustainability side, you know, creating more energy, especially if it's fossil fuels, carbon type of fuels, that is a global concern or a larger concern in there and that's the other thing that they've been looking at. I don't know if we would be in a position to require some type of utility like how to control or regulate the utility usage of a building. I don't know either, but it's just something to think about, you know, to look at.

I think that might be in in the long run to see what some of our neighbors are doing uh in there. A lot of these standards are, you know, the city of St. Louis kind of set a precedent uh and in there and I think we're starting to see more communities starting to draft up different scenarios and we can maybe that we can come back and add more to it but I think not having anything right now kind of puts us in a position of maybe require a little bit that they have to use more sustainable energy sources you know correct part of it or at least percentage you know all right well I think this is moving in the right direction so that's good all right we'll move on uh 2024 for comprehensive plan. I'm assuming we are going to defer that.

We're going to go really quickly through it. Sorry, but this is and this is the the thing about you know, you know, I'm going to put my two cents in because we are primarily a plan commission, but somewhere community design was added to that. So, you do architectural review. So, you know, 80 85% of everything we do is dealing with residential improvements and we barely get the plan. Here's our plan. This is what we have you here for. So, we're going to go this through this real quick. The council talked about we there was some discussion at the ca at the commission. They asked a what with the you know asked commissioner Lewis or Councilman Lewis to go talk to the council and asked what are the council's direction regarding where we want to go in implementing of the plan. They had that discussion Tuesday night. Uh Mr. Lewis was out of town uh but he he was informed of of uh of some of the information that they talked about. Overall, the the council saw three goals that they really kind of pushed above, you know, um and there I think there's about eight or nine goals in in the comprehensive plan. One is about strategic redevelopment and growth. The other one is about strengthening environmental sustainability and and third was diverse diversity and housing uh in there. Now, within each of those goals, there's these different type of actions. Their focus on those actions about strategic redevelopment and growth was primarily about enhancing the design quality and consistency along the Olive Boulevard. Um you know really focusing on chapter 428 and the Olive Boulevard master plan. Uh secondly was to continue those streetscape enhancements as it relates to connectivity throughout the city to our pedestrian and bicycle networks and essentially really make the the spaces you know uh pedestrian friendly and attractive uh in there. These kind of both go hand in hand uh in there. It was interesting on the selection of those two when you're talking about redevelopment and growth.

Um, goal I was about strengthening environmental sustainability, which we something like we just kind of talked about, but the council was their their their focus was more about removing barriers to solar panel installation. Similar right now, I have to bring these to you for your, you know, for for for consent to establish outdoor light lighting regulations uh in there and then to continue to implement and improve storm water oversight and regulations. Uh and then diversity and housing. In terms of diversity and housing is for to look at adjusting our zoning regulations to allow subdividing of larger lots into smaller lots to expand opportunities for smaller homes and then create new regula new regulations to manage the size and impact on how some of these new homes uh have on on the area and also these major developments u in there. So, I'm gonna go to Mr. feeling on that is we had all voted and kind of said what are the things these are actually the three I put in there which is I'm glad to see that you know there um I I did want to call out and we're not going to get to now so I'm going to ask maybe we can make it an agenda item at the beginning of the next meeting but still want to hear from this committee commission what do you want to take back whether it's accessory structures whether it's things like that that you want advice or you want the council's permiss you know consensus or advice on what laws would you like to see changed what guidance would you like so I'm still we we need to go reciprocally back but these were the council's views of these were things we think PCDC should be looking at or kind of focusing on what our view is

right so do you have any discussions about the accessory structures no because I I wanted to make sure are those the topics you guys want to have and I' I've mentioned it but I will need to get them on in a a speaking topic for the future thing but my ask of all of you is maybe think through it and maybe in the next meeting we can have it is just a few 10-minute conversation to say what are the main topics that you think council needs to take up, you know, accessory structures definitely is one I would say, but you know, our trees and other our I'm I'm just, you know, our those kind of things. So, okay. Okay. Got to belabor it tonight with the homework to think through it, but maybe Carlos, I don't know if we can put it early on just

Yeah. And that might be something too if the commission would be considered either we set a time that the normal meeting starts at 8 or we look at having a work session between 6:30 to 7:30 and then start the meeting. Uh I know everybody it's hard uh and there uh but applications are coming in. I I think I have uh two new homes and and in addition, we have the hotel and then we also have another special permit that that has submitted a petition for our meeting on the 20th. Gotcha. Okay. Okay. Well, how's everybody feel about coming in early? Little resistance,

you know, and I get it. No, I I um I just I do think we need to get it on a priority, you know, and hopefully we can get it on a you know, an agenda item, but and I'm fine like in in our agendas that the first 30 minutes is going to consist of a discussion amongst the commission regarding implementation. And I think we just time boxed ourselves to say we're only going to spend 20 30 minutes on we got to go. And I think it's good for the public to to hear what what is our what is our vision and what what are we doing? Yeah. No, I I get that. Okay. Well, we could do that.

But just remember, we are this is kind of the we've sequentially had some very long meetings and that does take a toll on everybody. Okay. So, um let's let's try to be mindful. If if we can delay it a month, you know, so we can get through some of these things, that'd be great. I think we can. Yeah. Good. Good. Okay. All right. Is this something that we could have something to read through and think about in the interim? That would be helpful to to facilitate this.

And the these council uh uh thoughts we just received and we're I just put them down in I got them in in an email and I put them down in a uh in in this and I'll get that sent out to everyone in there. Okay.

All right. So, we'll move on to reports there. Yes. Uh not much uh in here. We do have a busy meeting coming up. Our next meeting is November 20th. Uh in there it's going to be uh uh the US Bank facility that is on Olive Boulevard has been vacated for since last year. Uh in there we have a per permit uh for Mercy uh to use that facility as a pharmaceutical um uh facility for distribution and and and all that. Pharmaceut pharmaceutical ambulatory care facility uh in there they'll bring about 125 people. Uh it is permitted in it's zone light industrial and it's permitted in in the light industrial district and we'll have that discussion

um in there. uh council has its next uh meeting on November 18th. We have on their agenda the public hearing for easy storage and their restaurant facility and then uh there's an outline of the uh the next schedule of dates u and all that and I'll move it over to Councilman Lewis. Not much report. We had the harvest festival um which was you know a good hit and uh people seem to enjoy it quite a bit and chili cookoff on Halloween for everyone which is fun to attend. Nice. But um otherwise, you know, thank you. Two, three hour meetings in a row is uh Yes. It's not aimed at continue.

I think we It was a good interesting discussion. It was Yeah. So that's good. And hopefully we'll can hash out some of these other things that I think are appropriate for us. I'll add I mean having been on the council for like five commission for five years before, it was it's rare to have votes that weren't always unanous. I think that's good healthy debate. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. That being said, any other further discussion? Seeing none, we'll adjourn at 9:48. Oh, we can bring those to the next. Oh, sorry about that, guys. I'm