Committee on Health, Education, and Housing - Regular Meeting

There are many of our staff who go out in the community and sometimes the address that we receive is not often the correct address, which kind of delays us getting to the child to be able to make that particular assessment of the child and the situation. You definitely want to tell the centralized intake staff concerns about the child's immediate safety. And also include any person who is believed to be responsible for the abuse and neglect of the child. and the nature and extent and occurrence of the abuse and neglect. And try not to paraphrase or interpret any of the child's statements and provide as much objective information as possible. Phone number, email address of the reporting source is definitely helpful because we can always call the reporting source back if there's some information that we need to clarify and so having the reporting sources, name, phone number, contact information is definitely helpful from our perspective. What happens after a report is made to DCBS? After a report is made to us, You usually can get follow up information because every report that is made to centralized intake is either assigned a intake ID or a web ID and if the reporting source wants some follow up information, they can also call centralized intake and when they call centralized intake, they should provide the intake or web ID. And once a report is made to centralized intake, Usually the social service worker whom the person speaks to or the referral source speaks to, they usually have three hours to process the report and then they submit that particular report to their supervisor for review. But the supervisor also has three hours to review the information as well and then that particular supervisor in centralized intake will assign that report to a team. And so after the first report is made, if there is some additional information like the original report, a second incident can be assigned. And so if there are multiple reports, If an allegation is received within 15 working days of the original allegation and it's not the same program slash sub program or same allegations as the original, the social worker can add new information to the existing report as a second incident and there's only one second incident that can be attached to an intake. A third or fourth incident cannot be added However, case modification can.

If someone from DCBS calls for additional information,

one of our frontline social workers who are in direct service calls a referral source or calls an organization for additional information. Usually they are reaching out to get collateral information because the information that our collateral contacts provide, And so how can we be notified if the case does not get accepted or picked up or doesn't meet criteria? Um, we are bound by state law from uh, disclosing any confidential information about any case that we receive unless that person has a legitimate interest in the case itself. And so, but the, after the report has been made, the referral source, or any concerned citizen can always call centralized intake and take if that report has been accepted and who that report is assigned to and that particular social worker's supervisor. One of the things that commonly comes up as well is under the heading of what happens after the report is made is where does the social worker usually meet with the child after the report is made. Usually we like to meet with our children at school because the reason we like to meet with our children at school is because we can usually get a more believable story when the alleged perpetrator is not in the presence of the child.

a more reliable story.

If a case is open, does DCBS keep the referral source informed? We're bound by confidentiality. However, if the referral source is having ongoing contact, let's say with the frontline social worker, and they have some additional information that they would like to share, they can certainly always share that additional information with that particular social worker. And when a report is made, are DCBS social workers aware of previous reports on the same child or a student? And we may be aware, because we usually do what happens is when that report is made to centralized intake, we usually run case history on that particular child or children based upon the information that we have and even the parents as well to see if there are current cases or current referrals that are currently open, or if there is some history, whether that be CPS history, Adult Protective Services history, or even criminal history for that matter, because that helps us in our assessment of the family as a whole. After a report is made under that particular question, how can a referral source best support a child, They can best support a child by referring the child, if they have the means to do so, to perhaps a therapist to meet their behavioral mental health needs because child abuse is traumatic. And whenever we're involved with a family, sometimes it could cause a child to have a lot of questions. And so referring a child to a mental health professional is certainly something that can definitely help the child as that case. to assess child safety. Again, we will review the history, we'll consult with the supervisors, we'll initiate the report based on the initiation timeframe, we'll assess for safety, we'll utilize the evidence that is before us, and no two cases will be assessed the same because no two families are the same. The circumstances surrounding every family is unique and different. And so we approach each family based upon the allegations we have before us. And so if we're investigating allegations, what should someone expect afterwards? The social worker will usually initiate contact with the alleged victim because a referral is not initiated until face-to-face contact has been made with the alleged victim. And so we usually try to locate the alleged victim or victims usually at school, at home, or another location that may be identified on the referral. or a space to be able to meet with the child privately so that we can be able to make the child feel comfortable and allow the child to be able to disclose any information they may have about the allegations contained on the referral. And then afterwards, usually we advise all of our social workers to speak with the collaterals who may be able to provide additional information. And so usually referral sources wanna know how do they get in contact with someone or social worker in our agency who is working their case. And for general questions, there is the 1-800 number, the 1-800-372-2973 number. Also we advise CHFS listens and all of our social workers that work for DCBS are on global. And so like my email address is billy.jenkins at ky.gov. And so all of our social workers have that ky.gov email address. And CHFS Listens is very good about getting back with citizens who contact about who reach out for contact about a particular referral, a particular case. Or, you can also reach out to our service region administrators. We have two in Jefferson. Unlike the other regions, we have two service region administrators in Jefferson. We have Samantha Orther, who's over operations, and we have Chante West, who is over community. And... If someone desires again to know more about a report, I always advise calling centralized intake with that intake ID or that web ID. Centralized intake will usually be able to direct a concerned citizen or someone who has that web ID or intake ID to the social worker who was assigned to the case and the supervisor as well. However, if those two means don't work, because sometimes one of the chief concerns that we receive is that the wait time for centralized intake to speak to someone. And so someone can always again contact CHFS Listens or the 1-800 number that's on the screen. They are usually very timely in getting back with us to let us know that a citizen or a family member has a particular concern regarding a particular case. And so our agency is just one agency that has the responsibility of protecting children. However, child protection is a community. It definitely is. It's a community responsibility. It's a shared community responsibility. And again, we consider Louisville Metro as partners in that effort. And so child protection is a whole community's responsibility. Are there any

Questions?

Yes. I figured there would be questions.

Our first one, Councilman J.P. Leninger. He's anxious to ask a question.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you all for being here and the work that you do. My question is... What is the level of observed behavior that triggers being a mandated reporter? For example, if I see physical discipline in public, is that something that I need to report?

The reasonable or prudent standard is typically the standard that we all typically utilize and so any person normal rational person. If you, you know, I don't want to give specific examples because if someone is using physical discipline and if you are concerned about perhaps the way that physical discipline is being utilized and you suspect that that child based upon the way the physical discipline is being utilized, then by all means, um, call that information into the child abuse hotline or centralized intake. And at the same time, We also understand that using physical discipline is not necessarily something that is prohibited by state law. However, if you being a concerned citizen have concerns about the way in which physical discipline is being administered, by all means, again, contact centralized intake.

All right, thank you.

The next question is from Tammy Hawkins.

Thank you. Thank you for being here today. I have a couple of questions, and then if I need to get back in the queue, I will. The first thing I want to say is I really, really, really want to commend the Department of Child Care. I want to say that Christy Traxell is amazing. And you can let her know that Councilwoman Hawkins did state that. Their office really meets people where they're at. whether that's a person that's becoming a new director who can't facilitate the paperwork, if they need assistance, to be able to get that one-on-one help, even as a business owner sometimes, it can become challenging. And their office just has always been supportive. So I want to first start off with that. My next concern is, I'm gonna echo off my colleague just a little bit, to what is the severity if someone calls in? If someone calls in and say, hey, I seen a child getting pooped with a belt or whatever, but I mean, I just gotta say the stuff that people normally just don't say. You know, our youth has really gotten out of hand, right? And the minute that we allowed people to have the option to be able to call in and say that their child was getting abused or someone was getting abused was the minute that a lot of us lost control of being able to control our kids, right? These kids nowadays, they need a good old ass beating. Excuse my French. But that's what they need. And I just gotta say it, but now a lot of the community and a lot of people feel like that they cannot discipline their child because they'll get in trouble, right? So it's like, a blessing, and then it's like a curse, right? We tell people, where's your kids? Get your kids. But when you go as an adult or a parent, you got to put your hands on your kids. And then here come the departments saying, you can't do that. So have we gotten anywhere with being able to actually determine that we just need to beat these kids' ass to get their attention. Because if we don't, then we're going to lose our kids. And it's just as simple as that. If we don't start letting these kids know that we're the parents and we can discipline them, then eventually, because the minute that they feel like y'all there and y'all going to protect them, you know, we're going to have more kids in the system. And then we're going to have more parents that are discouraged to start to really discipline their kids. So at what level do you look at it? and just be like, nah, this wasn't bad. This is just a burn. Or there's no scale. Is there a structured scale? Is it, you know, let me go do an investigation? Like, what is the level? What is the level for that? I'm sorry.

Well, physical injury is, you know, leaving marks, bruises, welts. And so if a... parent or caretaker is using an object to discipline their child, whether that is a belt, an extension cord, a shoe, a switch, the likelihood of those objects leaving marks is high. And that's where the line is crossed. It's not prohibited to utilize corporal punishment. So a parent could theoretically swat their child on the rear end. And at the same time... At the same time, if that same parent picked up a belt and begins to utilize physical discipline on their child and that particular object leaves a mark, if that child, let's say, goes to school and shows a school professional that welt on their leg, that could trigger a report.

All right, thank you. And lastly, and I'm gonna,

Hand it over.

Okay, so then my last concern is, so, okay, I know you said that you all protect, you all are partners. My question is, in a sense, I beg to differ because when I first came on Metro Council, I know my colleague Barbara Shanklin probably can remember this, I wanna know what is going on with that are being placed in the basement of the L&M building. I heard about that. And when I heard about it, when I went to my colleagues, I was fresh on Metro Council. They were like, we don't mandate that. We don't govern them. And literally, it was someone that was in-house that had let that be known that there were kids being in the basement sleeping and how are we gonna discipline parents for mistreating their kids in a home or not having beds in a home and And if we're, like, y'all not policing yourselves, right? So who's policing to make sure that our kids, or have you all found somewhere to place those kids besides being in the basement if someone's not taking them? The way I got it was, and I mean, for me, let me be very clear. If it was happening, it was happening, right? If there's not a place, if there's not a place, if there's not a placement for a family to take these kids, what do we do with them? Instead of letting them stay in the basement, you know, how, you know, what do we do with them?

Um, Councilwoman Hawkins, I appreciate the work that you do in the community. Um, I must say that, um, children sleeping in the basement of the L&M building is a myth. Um, and the reason why I say it's a, it's a myth is, is even when There were issues around children having to temporarily stay in the L&M building. makeshift beds, cots.

So you said it was a myth, but then you said even if it was temporarily. So it was happening. Whether it was temporary or not, it was happening, right?

What I meant myth is myth by the basement. If you ever been to the L&M building, I wouldn't want to sleep in that basement. I don't think anybody's going to sleep in that basement. That's a little more like you wouldn't want. It's a very old building, lots of creepy things down there. When children were sleeping in the L&M building, and it's not a myth that they were sleeping in them, because they were. I mean, there have been times where we have had children sleeping in the L&M building, which we technically, we call it non-traditional placement. um at first when it first initially happened before we could really get a grasp on it we had the cots and we had it set up to where it wasn't the basement it was like in one of our visitation areas and so it wasn't like it was happening every day periodically we would have some some some youth who had some behavioral needs that you know caused some placement some reservation to to be able to wanna take them into their placement or their foster home. And so after we started really getting a grasp of what was going on, had some donations from some community partners, and we actually have beds. We have two spaces that are identified in the L&M building that are like bedrooms that we have opened up where children who have to temporarily be in those particular spaces can stay perhaps until we can work out a placement situation for them. And we also have a partnership with YMCA Safe Place. where we can also take our children over there as well, which will allow them access to to be able to, you know, have those accesses readily at hand and available. And so, I will say that, you know, As time has elapsed in regards to children having to stay in the L&M building, when those times are happening, it's not like it's happening every day. We have protocols in place to have staff, our own staff, that actually sit around the clock with those particular youth at the YMCA Safe Place to monitor, to fill out reports, and to let leadership know what's happening until we can work on a strategy to find a placement. Because some children have unique behavioral needs, mental health needs that need to be assessed. And sometimes, let's say a child who has unique behavioral and mental health needs, sometimes we may not have all that information at the time of removal. for some youth who have some unique mental health and behavioral needs. Sometimes it may take us a few hours, especially if it happens, if a removal happens at 3 a.m. in the morning.

I understand.

It takes time to be able to get all the information.

I appreciate your honesty with that and I appreciate you all working with those kids. I know it could be challenging. You know, even for that, because for them to be able to place into a home, you don't really know what levels they are at as of yet in order for a family to be able to say, yeah, we'll take them, or yeah, we won't. So now I just have a better level of understanding, and I appreciate that.

Thank you.

And whatever we can do as far as to help, whatever it looks like, just let me know. I'd like to meet with you to see how we can help you all fill that gap right there.

Yes, and we certainly would receive all the help to help us meet the needs of families and children in this community. And I would also say that our service region administrators, they would gladly let any of our staff take a tour, any of your staff take a tour of the sleeping areas that we place children in temporarily until a more stable placement can be found.

All right, thank you. Our chair, Barbara Shanklin, would like to ask a question. Barbara?

Okay, thank you. You're welcome. As I was sitting here listening, I thought about exactly what Councilwoman Hawkins was talking about because I know that that did happen and it really bothered the both of us. We looked into it, but the thing that bothered me is when you take a child away from his home and he And he's not with Mama no more, even though Mama might whoop him or do something wrong. It's even more scary for him when he's with a person that he doesn't know in a place where he doesn't know where he is and he doesn't see anybody that he knows. And I mean, you explained it well, but it's still something that bothers me. And the fact that if you find out that mom or somebody is mistreating a child and then you take it. So I was going to ask, where do you put him? But, you know, I do know that you they do use L&M. But how long do they stay there? Do they stay just a day until they find somewhere else to go? Are we that full of foster parents? I mean, at the place where it's so many children that you don't have a place to put them in in a foster home, how long is it in between the time that they leave mom until they find a safe place to stay?

It varies. The time length will vary depending on the child and the child's behavioral needs. When a removal is done, we usually make a reasonable effort, a reasonable effort to try to look for other relatives before consideration is even given to placing a child in a non-traditional placement. I mean, we're asking mom about maternal relatives. We're asking mom if dad is involved. We're asking about paternal relatives as well. is a placement of last result. I mean, it's like we've done everything we can. We've got RNC recruitment and certification looking for a placement. They're looking for placements. We've ruled out relative placements. And so we're basically... you know, we're in a holding pattern. And sometimes that holding pattern or the length of time will vary based upon the needs of the child, the age of the child. And so that could be sometimes 24 hours. Sometimes it could be, you know, less than 24 hours. Sometimes it could be, you know, 48 hours. Sometimes it could be 72 hours. It just depends on the needs of the child.

Well, why not take them to Children of the Innocents where there's other children there and they can see other kids, but the idea that they're sitting in a a place where it's a desk, it just bothers me. It just bothers me. Maybe at the Children of the Innocents, you can take them there and leave them for a few hours or something. They'll see other children, but in an empty building. I won't say empty, but nobody's there at night. It's creepy. It's quiet. Only one other person. All you see is desks and all that type stuff. Maybe think about taking them there. I know they don't always, the hospital's not always for the children's hospital and keep them overnight or something like that. It's just scary for a child. He's already taken from his mom and then put them in a building. office building at that. I just can't imagine how a child would feel. So I'm just throwing out. I'm not taking the children of the innocent. I may be at the hospital and keep them up at night.

Yes, we utilize HOTI, Home of the Innocents. We utilize them, but they have an acceptance criteria that they go through and they match up the child's behaviors with their with their acceptance criteria. The space that we have at the L&M building, although it's not in a house, it is a bedroom. It's one of our conference rooms or two of our conference rooms that have been converted into bedrooms. So in those particular spaces, there's a bed, there is a television, there's a dresser, there's a refrigerator, And so we try to make it as child-friendly as we can in those spaces in the L&M building. And then at the YMCA Safe Place, usually that's... They try to make that space as comfortable as possible for the child. And usually we have staff and we have our security staff. There's usually round the clock updates about how the child is progressing. And so that's usually how that happens when a child has to be in a non-traditional placement.

I understand. And also, I've been over to the Safe Place, and it's mostly older children over there. I've been over there a lot of times when I work in a different job. And it's mostly older children. I'm speaking, I guess, about younger kids. So I wish that you guys would try to find a place that, even though it's a bed, a TV, and all of that, they have to feel like they're alone. So, but I won't criticize. I just have a concern about it when it comes to children. So, thank you. And thank you for coming. I appreciate you being there. I've learned a lot sitting here listening. I've learned a lot, but I still have a lot of concerns when you take their child away from mom. It's bad enough that they're taken away from something that they're comfortable with and putting them in a place where, you know, it's so uncomfortable for a kid. And when I speak, I'm speaking of younger kids, not the older ones, but younger kids. Okay?

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. I forgot to mention that Marilyn Parker came in and she's wanting to ask a question. It's all yours, Marilyn.

Yes. Along that the vein of what we're talking about, placing kids, do you have a system where you try to place the child with another family member first?

Yes, yes. I mean, before removal is even taken in consideration, usually there is what we call a consultation. So let's say a social worker goes out to a residence and they see that condition. another service region administrator associate or clinical associate to discuss what's going on, what are they seeing, and usually the questions that are asked, are there any relatives that are willing to take the child? Can you speak with the parent to ask the parent Can the child go stay with an aunt, an uncle, a cousin? And even we look at fictive kin, individuals who may not be related by blood, but they're still considered family. And so if those individuals are willing to open up their home and let us go in and do a safety check and review, then we certainly will take those individuals into consideration for placement.

Okay. Are you all the agency that someone would report if a child was being solicited on social media or the internet? Is it your agency that someone would call, like a parent would call, or friend, or is it LMPD?

I would say both and. I mean, it depends on what you mean by solicited, if it's definitely a situation. And it depends on who they're being solicited by. But certainly, I would say both and. that that adult has if they're in a caretaking role or non-caretaking role. If they're in a caretaking role, by all means, yes, it could be someone, it would be something that would come to our attention.

So it would be you all, but if it was like stranger danger, it would be LNPD?

LNPD, Kentucky State Police.

Yes. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. JP, you're up. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanna say, speaking as a parent, that there are many times that people react out of fear for their child's safety and their continued well-being, and sometimes, frankly, out of anger about the behavior of children, but they're, in generations, of study, there has not been one report that found positive results, excuse me, of physical discipline on the outcomes for children. Not one. And that instead, We should absolutely be focusing on what works rather than what might satisfy those fears or feelings of anger in a moment. Again, I'm wholly sympathetic. I have children. Sometimes I'm worried. And at the same time, when I was a child, there were times that I was physically disciplined. My grandmother, who was the sweetest woman who ever walked the face of the earth, sometimes used a forsythia switch. But I do believe in my heart that with all the information that we have today, my grandmother would have done something different. And I think it is important that we remember if our desire is for positive outcomes for children, that there is, again, And people have looked, people have had an ideological commitment to the idea that physical discipline was positive in children's lives and tried to perform studies that showed that and have never been able to in generations. And I think it's important that we work always with the best interest of children at heart when we consider these things. Thank you.

Thank you. You know, I'm old. Like Barbara. In my lifetime, I don't really know that I remember any kids being abused as a kid. Although when I was a kid, most moms didn't work. Although the kids' moms that did work, they always came over to our house. My mom always had brownies and cookies or something, and we'd watch Roy Rogers or something on TV. it breaks my heart to think how many people, is there a lot of abuse? I guess men do more abuse than women would, I guess. And I think, when I was a kid, I didn't know that people did things sexually to kids. I mean, I was naive.

In the... In the packets that I provided, there is one of our, some data, there's some data, everybody who likes the data. As far as intakes in Jefferson, Jefferson region, from 6-1-2025 to 5-31-2026, Um, as far as intakes are concerned, which excludes APS and APS as adult protective services, there have been 24,440 referrals or reports that have been called into a centralized intake.

That's sick. That's sick. That's terrible. Um, well, I appreciate you all coming here. Uh, When my kids were little, my wife at one time wanted to work. I said, no, no, no, no. We need you here. I can't do all you do. And a mom is really important. And I look back when I was a kid, my mom was home and Man, keeping you confident that you're okay, even though kids make fun of you or whatever. And I hate to think that other kids didn't have the opportunity. Although looking back, Louisville Transit was the bus line. My sister worked downtown at Fisher Hobby Shop right by the Orange Bar. And I remember on a Saturday getting on a bus me and the next door neighbor, eight years old, riding a bus down to 4th Street from Churchill Downs. And my daughters used to babysit when they were 11 years old. Now you can't. I mean, but they were responsible. And my dad used to plow a field with a team of horses eight years old. He'd talk about, you know, training of horses and teach them to plow a field at eight years old. And now that we call child abuse, I guess. I don't know. But he was responsible. And it's nice to have people learn how to do things because that's one of the things that really bothers me. I taught vocational education for 28 years. And I tell everybody, if you go to school and you get out and you can't get a job, school didn't really help you. Everybody's supposed to work. And it'd be nice to have people find something they like to do. So you all are helping out kids. I don't know anything that's more important. If I was in the school system, if I was going to pay the teacher the highest wage, it'd be elementary teachers. I mean, they're the ones that truly have reached it. When a kid's vulnerable to feelings and having somebody comfort them. I mean, I was so blessed to have elementary teachers that were so great. And I probably was a problem. I know I was a problem. I had ADD and everything. They had a hard time probably holding on to me. But they were great. And I had a super childhood. So that's what we want, every kid to have a good childhood. And you all watching out, as Barbara was talking about, kid not having somebody to lean on when when they're really scared to death I mean I used to tell people when I taught high school kids as if you don't know what it is to be 16 years old you don't need to be here you got to understand what some of the kids are experiences as you're trying to educate them and help them out same way you know if you're in the child helping you got to remember what it was to be a child and the feelings you had and the comfort you had when somebody just put their arm around you and say hugged you a little bit i mean i remember some people when i was a kid it hugged me at different they didn't think it was a big deal boy at me at different times it really was big And so I really appreciate you all coming today, and I appreciate what you've... I hope we can figure out how we can help you all better, make more people aware, because I think most people, if they are aware, they'll do better. Yes. So, Billy, anything you want to say anymore?

Thank you for allowing us to be here. And, you know, we, you know... are available to, if you all would like to see some of our non-traditional spaces that we have in the L&M building, by all means. Definitely we consider Louisville Metro as partners, and especially because we have staff in each of the neighborhood places, and so, Again, as I stated earlier, any time those particular neighborhood places can be supported physically through their funding, especially with DCBS and additional funding to help those neighborhood place sites, then that means that families win, the community wins, because families can access the resources that they need within the communities in which they reside. I don't know if my colleagues, they may have,

Anything to say? Dennis, you got anything? Or Hunter?

Can you hear me now, okay. Hi everyone, thank you for giving us this time today. My name's Hunter and I'm a supervisor at the L and M building downtown in the recruitment certification department. And our team really focuses on our recruitment efforts for foster and adoptive families. So I really appreciate all the questions about what we're doing in the community to help these kids with their placements, because it's really a big need at this time to find those safe and stable homes for our kids while they're removed from their families, especially their relatives as well. We have a really big support program for our kinship care families, so I appreciate you all. wanting to help with those efforts. I did provide a sheet with all the information that you all could pass out of how to become a foster parent with DCVS and my contact as well as Dennis's is on there. So feel free to email us and reach out and we're happy to come talk to you all more in detail about that process. But we're happy to partner with you all as well.

Hunter, are you all working with Southeast Christian by any chance?

Yeah, we have several community partners that we try to increase our recruitment efforts with, so they are somebody that we try to partner with as much as possible.

Because I hear it a lot at church, you know, talking about fostering, you know, taking it on. I even think Kyle did a sermon talking about fostering. Okay, that's good. Appreciate it. All right, well, thanks a lot. Thank you.