City Council - workshop

All right, friends, let's... We have... gathered today for a council workshop meeting. Subject will be smoke and vape shops. We are, I have called the meeting to order. This is a regular, well, it's not a regular schedule. It is a scheduled Greer City Council workshop called and convened this afternoon at 5.30. With that, I will call the meeting to order. And any opening remarks, Mr. Merriman, in regards to the workshop?

Mr. Mayor, Council, thank you for being here today. Mr. Booker had requested that we have some consideration, possibly of an ordinance. regulating or in some way addressing smoke and vape shops. The decision was made to come together in a workshop format to hear council, hear from council, and give staff an opportunity to kind of glean some direction before we went off and drafted an ordinance for council's consideration. More as an effort to fine tune what it is this council may or may not want to do in the form of an ordinance. So, Mr. Mayor, with that, I think that would be my opening discussion on what we're here to do. Staff is here to listen, maybe provide some technical feedback if any specific questions are asked. But it's as much for a listening opportunity for us as it would be a discussion opportunity for council.

With that, then I will. Ask Mr. Booker if he wants to make an opening statement or remarks, and we will move forward with the workshop.

Yeah, thank you, Mayor, and thank you, Council, for taking the time to be here. Basically, what I'm trying to do today is honestly gauge council's interest of us virtually closing the retail loophole for the smoke and vape shops. I sent some additional information to you all concerning That aspect, by no means am I trying to shut out smoking bait shops in Greer or shut them down. I just want to put some additional safeguards around how our community is shaped and how it looks. And so... That's really where I would like this discussion to go is just to gauge your feedback, hear some of your concerns, your questions, some of the constructive criticism potentially of what an ordinance could and could look like. I had throughout some options of first thing would be to classify smoke and vape shops as their own separate category. Right now, currently they're classified as general retail. Break that out like we do with alcohol and some of the other tattoo parlors and some of the other oriented businesses. And then second, I'd send a note to potentially provide a distance requirement between each shop. um currently uh after i sat down and looked at the the makeup of where our smoke and vape shops lie in the city um also sat down with staff and we looked at it together in some regards of uh i came up with a quarter mile number by no means does that have to be the number it could be more it could be less but by nature of if you look at 29 and some of the The areas where you have the prevalence of these shops, a quarter mile seemed to be where they were located from another. The whole goal for that would be to limit the situation in which you have a strip mall and let's say on one end you have a shop and then right in the same strip mall, you have like almost an Asheville type situation where you'll have three stores in the same location. So that was the motivation behind having the space requirement. Now that we have them here, at least curb their abilities to be more densely located one another. And then the last thing I had throughout there was And some of our overlay districts, and I don't know all of them by heart, I believe we've got five or six overlay districts such as like the downtown overlay district and some of the entryway corridors.

We would push that to the Board of Zoning Appeals for those shops to state their case by special exception.

If they wanna locate into what we would categorize as a high profile location, And by high profile, you know, we've gone through the process to call it a corridor or entryway overlay.

We see a need for it to have a closer look from a staffing standpoint and even from a citizen's perspective. And so...

I requested that maybe we could throw that into a special exception category that if you want to be there, state your case, let the Board of Zoning Appeals take a look at it, and then they would approve that location or not approve it. And so those are the three items that I threw out there. Like I said, by no means am I trying to run smoke and vape shops out of Greer or close them down. This is really just more of a safeguard so that we just don't have them popping up literally everywhere because right now there is a parent back door for them to take advantage of being classified as general retail.

So to expand on that, and I appreciate the information.

We certainly appreciate the heads-up, too, on the items that you just named. Just, I guess, as a personal question, is this – are you – Is this a personal issue in some regard to you? Are you working with an organization? Is this a council issue? I understand the regulations. What's behind those? That might help us frame this conversation as well, too.

I have not worked with any organization. The organization has approached me about this issue. This has been offhanded comments I've made to my wife and just riding around the district. And, you know, you see one pop up and you notice all the rope lighting and the next thing you know, another one pops up and then you start to grit your teeth and see, oh, there's another one there. And then it got to a point where now I guess they're running out of marketing ideas where you have. a hair store slash smoke and vape shop together. And so it seemed to be no end to what is going on. I've visited, I've never been in a smoke and vape shop until I started going down this road. And so I started looking at some of the areas to see what exactly is in here. The items they sell are very concerning for me, especially in a district that If you look at it from a historical standpoint, it has been one to abuse drugs and things of that nature. Especially at one point, if you were going into Sunnyside community, you had drug dealings happening in the middle of the road. And if you go into these shops, you'll see they've got your pipes, they've got your rolling paper. In addition to, you know, your smoke and vape supplies. And so when I first thought about these shops, I assumed, because I used to work at a gas station, you know, you had a wall of tobacco and maybe a couple other items. It is nowhere near that when you go into these stores. It is... I would say classified, if you've ever been to Spencer's in the mall, I would put it almost like a Spencer-esque smoke and vape spin to it. So almost catch your eye and almost embarrassing in some ways with some of the items that they have in there. So this is totally motivated personally, especially with having the level of shops in my district and how there's a potential for them to pump these items drug paraphernalia items in addition to the smoke and vape supplies into my location. So it's strictly community optics and what I feel is being a good steward as a councilman over District 2.

So just for general information before we dive too deeply in, Could we possibly have someone from planning give us sort of the 10,000-foot view of regulations that we currently have in regards to smoke and vape shops and any information regarding signage and that thing? It might help shape our conversation. I know you're both looking at each other.

Six one half does another.

Well, I think for framing the conversation, it would be interesting to us because quite honestly, I,

I don't know that much about it.

I think there's a couple of issues at stake here in terms of the conversation as we move along. So not very detailed, but at least give us some information that may be relevant to the conversation that we'll have during this workshop.

Absolutely appreciate this. Mr. Mayor, I'll have Ms. Cotty talk about our current regulations, and then I'll talk about kind of where we see potentially some parameters around this work if Council so decides to go that way. So I'll let Ashley start and talk about current regulations. I'll talk about what future potential ones we could propose.

Thank you.

sure so currently um as mr booker stated um we do not have a separate use um so in article 4.2 of the unified development ordinance we have a table of permitted uses um that might be single family detached that might be retail that might be manufacturing um so right now we do not have a specific separate call out for smoke and vape and they would just be considered retail um so they are allowed by right in many districts, just because they are just general retail. We do have call outs for alcohol sales. We do have call outs for tattoo. We do have call outs for sexually oriented businesses. Otherwise, most things are captured in the general retail. We also break out bar, brew pub, distillery, things related to alcohol. We do have specific definitions for and identify which districts they'd be allowed in. So again, right now they are just like any other general retail store. That could be like a grocery store. That could be a gas station, so any of those. And then the only other regulation we would have is all of our sign regulations. I will say that we do have window signage requirements, a limit on how much you can have your, I think it's either 50 or 30, I'll have to double check, but how much of your windows can be covered by signage.

We did in the barber,

TOBACCO VAPE SHOP WHEN WE WERE REVIEWING THEIR SIGNS, THEY DID HAVE WAY TOO MUCH WINDOW SIGNAGE AND HAD TO TAKE OFF ABOUT HALF OF IT. SO WE DO HAVE REGULATIONS RELATED TO HOW MUCH WINDOW SIGNAGE. WE HAVE REGULATIONS RELATED TO HOW MUCH BUILDING SIGNAGE, FREE STANDING SIGNAGE. FLUORESCENT LIGHTING IS NOT ALLOWED, AND THE ROPE LIGHTING IS GENERALLY NOT ALLOWED. SO WE DO FEEL LIKE SOME OF THE CURRENT SIGNAGE-RELATED AESTHETIC ISSUES COULD BE SOLVED WITH COMMUNITY COMPLIANCE. THAT'S OUR KIND OF WHAT WE USED TO CALL CODE ENFORCEMENT. SO GOING OUT AND ENFORCING THE UDO, BECAUSE A LOT OF THEM DO HAVE SIGNAGE THAT'S TECHNICALLY NOT ALLOWED. That's really it. Can you think of anything else that would for existing that would be about it? So turn it back to Alex for future.

So we did spend some time looking into what other jurisdictions in South Carolina are doing. Just we want to make sure that we. Learn from what our peers have done. The standard has been about a thousand foot buffer for those cities that chose to regulate it between sensitive uses, as they say. So that might be schools, daycares, other child care establishments. Columbia, Forest Acres, West Columbia, and Irmo all have a smoke and vape regulation and ordinance. West Columbia takes it a little further than just the 1,000-foot buffer. They also require that 50% of the signage on the windows has a disclaimer notification that you might fail a drug test if you purchase items from the store. So there's varying levels of degrees how different cities have approached it. The most common things have been to identify it, as Mr. Booker said, as a use, a standalone use. When we're able to define something, we're able to monitor and regulate it a little bit more, a little better. The second thing is the buffer. The third thing is having it allowed in certain districts. We would look at commercial corridor and manufacturing and logistics of the potential two districts to allow it in. The least common is to do it by special exception. There is one community in South Carolina that does it that way. If it's by special exception, that means the Board of Zoning Appeals needs to regulate it. They get a set of performance conditions that they have to look at before they approve the smoke and vape shop. I agree with Ms. Cottey on the existing regulations. Also, our biggest non-compliance right now is signs and just UDO enforcement of it. So that's something that we've already kind of started. We have an officer dedicated to that to start looking at that. But in terms of what other jurisdictions are doing, there's not a lot of communities doing something in South Carolina just for have existing regulations around this.

Four is open for discussion. Thank you all. We appreciate it.

Got a follow-up question with some of the research I've done. Do you feel, you know, when we implemented the UDO, I guess, what was it, 2020, 2019, when we actually started just the talks of it?

It was in 2021, actually, I believe, when we started and engaged the, yeah.

Well, that was when it was funded. Were there any preliminary discussion before that, years prior? To the UDO? Yeah.

Well, before, we really didn't have a UDO before that. So, yeah, I mean, before that, it was just zoning. Yeah, okay.

Well, I guess my thing is, you know, we know when the farm bill came into South Carolina, I think it was 2018 or so, and then South Carolina accepted it as part of law, I think 2019, 2020, somewhere in that range. I'M JUST CURIOUS, ARE WE JUST NOW CATCHING UP WHERE WE'RE IMPLEMENTING THE UDL? SMOKE AND VAPE SHOPS WASN'T AS HUGE AS IT IS NOW. AND SO, YOU KNOW, DO WE FEEL OR DO YOU ALL THINK THERE'S SOME TYPE OF DELAY THERE THAT COULD BE PROCESSING THERE WHERE YOU'RE JUST CATCHING UP TO THE TIMES OR DO YOU JUST THINK IT'S NOT REALLY AN ISSUE?

I'm not sure. I don't want to speculate, but it does make sense. We have seen more.

There was a discussion at the time. I think we did. We didn't know what the impact was. We didn't know how it would grow or where it would be. So I think there was a hesitation. There was some discussion.

So just for comparison, liquor stores, vape shops, how do they look from a planning and zoning perspective?

Could you elaborate on the question?

What regulations do we have on the liquor stores?

none other than they are called out separately and where they'd be, which districts they'd be allowed in. And then we do refer to state law.

What are we, you and I have spoken about it and I guess the first question I would have is how do you define a smoke slash vape shop? Or is there a definition of a smoke slash vape shop?

So Columbia does it by percentage of Floor space, right? Yeah.

There's what's called an IAC code for business licensing that's used, and it's defined by floor space. And so...

How much, do you know what the percentage is that they say has to be, so I'm assuming that there's a category and it says, okay, if you're gonna have so much tobacco product, it can only take up X amount of space, retail space, is that right?

Yes, we can look into that state law and come back to y'all with that answer.

Okay. Is the motivation, because I've heard you say a couple things. One, you've heard from educators and I know my son is a teacher and he talks about some of the stuff that kids and even adults wind up with at school. Is that the main motivation or is it just how it looks on the outside or? Yeah, I think it's a combination of all of it.

It used to be having a liquor store at the corner was the thing not to have, and now it seems unshifted to other issues. Of course, I don't like the aesthetics of it. Right now, like I said, we have tons of enforcement issues concerning signage that they're not abiding by. I don't know if we need to have more teeth with that side where there is a penalty associated with not complying. But then also, you can talk to many educators. You can talk to, I'm sure, police departments and things like that that will tell you the issues they face with these shops. I know last week, actually a week after school started, I saw that... news outlet ran that vaping incidents had a huge spike after just the first week of school. Inside the school, they've got monitoring systems and things for that. Vape supplies, you have to be 21 and older. And so if you're under that age and you have access to these things, if they can't even conform to regulation with signage, which I think is the easiest thing to do. I mean, what else are they not enforcing with regulation? Is age requirement not a big deal for them? Every time I've been in a smoke shop, I've never been asked to pull out a card to see how old I am. Of course, I haven't purchased anything yet. So I haven't tested the theory.

Yeah.

We had a situation here in Greer where I was notified of a location that was It was told to me they were giving away free margarita slushies. And so I reported it to our police staff, and they actually had to send sled in there to confirm what was going on with that situation. And so it's almost like the Wild Wild West with some of these stores.

It's whatever with rules, and...

I guess if they get caught, I don't know what the penalties are if they get caught. And go back to the point she said with liquor regulations. We've got a whole state law surrounding liquor and alcohol. Well, smoke and vape shops, I mean, you can hardly have quality assurance. I mean, I could pick up one pack of THC products, and it could be conforming, and the next pack behind it, it could be non-conforming. And, you know, the way they've changed all the regulations for me to even find a place to test this stuff. I mean, there's like a three year backlog. And so, you know, we'll never get tested because there's no one able to test it in general. And so it's really just a culmination of a lot of things. Feedback from the community, feedback from educators, just everyone has some pain point with these shops, with how they're currently structured.

Okay, so I'm trying to think about how we can do something. One, law enforcement. We don't have to change anything at that point. If they're selling the underage, then that needs to be something that our PD is concentrating on. As far as zoning goes, I got you. There's two stores that we've spoken about that's in the same strip mall. One is a CBD shop, and the other is, I guess, a page store. You don't have to look at the titles. You just look at them, and they're side by side. You can tell. which one looks like more of a, okay, we do things right, and the other one is, yeah, come on in, we'll see what we can do for you. So I think we can do something there, and then we can do something with law enforcement, which, and to be quite honest, it's the issue with underage, that's... being underage that's not it's just a different product now when I was in school the drinking age was 18 and I was telling you before we started there were places around town you knew where you could go that they weren't going to check any kind of IDs smoke I never heard of one of them and then you know at the time tobacco wasn't I know Mr. Farmer sitting out there in the audience, he remembers the Hardee's located right across from the old high school. They had a cigarette vending machine in there. I think that might be the two best ways to approach this. I think kids vaping and doing all this other stuff, they're going to do what's out there. There's always going to be that happening, I believe. But I think enforcement is, that's the, we have a few tools now where we don't have to change anything. We could just first start using the tools we have available and pushing that and pushing it hard.

I tend to agree with you, Mr. Arrowood. I think, Mr. Booker, what you're saying, I totally agree with. I think it's commendable, especially, you know, what you're talking about with your district. I think, like you said, I think I heard three things. The aesthetics, you know, just from like signage and other things being a problem. The public health issues specifically, whether you're an adult, whether your child, like it's not a great idea, you know, smoking cigarettes, vape, et cetera. Then also, like you said, the potential issues you know, dual use for illegal drugs as well. You know, some of the paraphernalia. I would say I am hesitant always to add on regulation, add on, you know,

extra bureaucracy you know on private businesses i think the for me when i think of you know when the comparison is made to alcohol you know for me i think alcohol is different because that that is a product that when consumed it potentially is a danger to my neighbors around me if it's consumed in an irresponsible way whereas if i smoke cigarettes it's not a great idea

you know, for my own health, but it's my own health, my own choice that way, too.

So I think that's the difference when I think in that regard.

But I would, you know, some of the main concerns, it sounds like they're potentially enforcement issues of existing regulations just not being followed. I would be totally on board with us, you know, leaning into that, both on the law enforcement side as well as the you know, community code enforcement piece as well. Yeah, so all that said, I think your points are well made, Mr. Irwin.

On the community enforcement side, what is the, you know, we know they're not complying. Is there a reason that they are not complying and what are the ramifications for not complying?

Yes, thank you. Council may remember back at budget time, you may not, you'll have a lot on your plate. We asked for another compliance officer to help focus on UDO enforcement, and this would be part of that bucket of work. One of these things is science, as Ms. Cotty mentioned. We have some issues with the window signage, with the lighting of the signage. We have some issues with some of them, as you know, using food trucks and other things that are not regulated appropriately. You know, they're supposed to go back to a commissary at night, and we had one that wasn't doing that. And it really just takes a staff lift, so... If we got direction from Council Which when we adopted the budget, you know, that was kind of the first step I feel like direction from Council to start some of that compliance And if we hear even more solidly tonight than enforcement's the right approach we can hit it even harder And really bring those existing 13 sites into compliance from a static perspective I think that's the way to start because I

I think if you apply economic principles to it, if you take that retailer and those products somehow so you can exist. Well, then there's going to be retailers that's going to make that room for those products. I mean, I know that there's convenience stores now, very prominent ones, that sell a lot of that same paraphernalia. Food trucks, people coming and vending seafood out of the parking lot, that kind of thing. and so um yeah i i think it's uh two steps um one is with the making them look good and then the other is is is law enforcement and the teeth that we have is the business license eventually if they just don't comply correct or what what other

Yeah, I mean we have the whole purview of property maintenance enforcement so we can issue notices of violation. We can, if we get to it, we can lien the property. We can abate the property ourselves. Business license I think requires council approval to revoke, but that's a further step we could take. But there are enforcement mechanisms already in our bucket of tools.

And selling to underage, I mean, that's a criminal, literally a criminal issue, correct?

Correct. Do we enforce that in any way right now, like through rear PD?

We enforce it, yes, sir. Yeah, we have the ability to enforce that.

Okay, and have we done any of that? I don't know if they're called like a sting operation or something where you send somebody that's underage to try to buy something?

To my knowledge, the police department has not done that actively, no, sir. Okay.

Well, I personally don't like them. But also, I don't smoke and vape. But there's a lot of people that do. So, I mean, at the end of the day, I don't find it correct to legislate on, I guess, the morality of the issue. But we also want to protect the way the city looks. So I see both sides. But I think that's to Mr. Hopper's and Mr. Arrowood's points. I mean, we already have code enforcement for signage. And I mean... And at the end of the day, I mean, students that are – if my dad found out I was vaping when I was in high school, I would have found out the hard way why it was bad. So I don't think getting in between – I mean, we're not moral police. We're not parents like that.

I don't know. Yeah, there are limitations on what we can affect in something like this.

Yeah, I personally don't like them, but I also see it as just a free market issue, right?

I think that was Greenville County that had already seized like 1,500 vape things. Do we know, are they working through law enforcement to trace back where those... were obtained. Do you have any idea about that? I'm unaware of that.

Is that, like, obtained from, like, a school or something? Well, yeah, they took them.

People came to school with them, and they confiscated them, and I think that's a pretty big penalty for them when they're caught with that.

They also laid a story.

Yeah, bringing THC to school.

It seems to me, though, that what they need to be doing is using whatever information they gather from those people and work backwards to find out where they're getting it. And that's where your problem is.

Yeah, you're right. And now, you said THC, and so did Mr. Booker. A lot of these vapes, there's a lot of adults who vape, and they don't have THC. It's just a flavored nicotine. And the kids like the nicotine because it's a big high like that. I almost like drinking 10 cups of coffee in one sip. shot. And so on the morality side, if a child has a parent that vapes, the parent's not going to really be that, it's not that big of a deal. Unless, you know, they're breaking the law by using illegal drugs. I don't think parents are like that. It's kind of the same thing as You know, back when I was in high school, you know, kids had packs of cigarettes in their pocket and at lunchtime they'd go out at the the traffic circle and smoke or chew tobacco or whatever, along with the teachers and the principal. So, yeah, I think in law enforcement and code enforcement, that's the route. Mr. Booker, I'd say, I don't know.

You've done a lot of thinking and work on this subject. I know, you know, I'm older than you. I'm younger than some. but I'm talking about being in parties and this and that. I remember going to Pizza Inn when I was little, same thing, right? The vending machine, that thing. But even just during my lifetime, like cigarette smoking rates have plummeted for a variety of reasons. I think education being one of those, I think, I don't know, maybe that's something that we could collaborate and come up with. from an education standpoint as well, if that'd be of interest.

I guess I'm trying to put myself in y'all's shoes to understand where you're coming from. Smoking vape shops is, like I said, of interest to me, but why do we see it fit to have separate categories for liquor, for tattoo parlors, for any other category that we pull out if it's You know, if it's not really a moral issue, I'm just trying to understand the other side of the argument that you all are coming from, where we allow certain other areas to have additional restrictions, but this one doesn't quite justify that level.

Well, we're not discussing those items at the moment.

Well, I think Mark put his finger on that, or maybe it was the mayor talking about the How severe alcohol can affect other people? I think this is you're only harming yourself with this vaping tattoos. I was against redoing them, so don't... I'm not in that bad of a situation. I would have been against it, too. I don't see the tattoo thing. You're only hurting yourself. We didn't regulate that either. But you're only hurting yourself when you get a tattoo. But I think the alcohol is a much... I mean, it destroys so many things if it's not controlled. You know, you see it firsthand. Not so much vaping. That's just a health issue. And I think probably legislatively it's going to have to be done through the state if you really want to get a handle on it. And I don't really know where they stand on that.

I mean, to your point, there's not a lot of regulation, quality testing, et cetera. So you're right. I just don't know that that is our role, our lane to regulate that, right? And yes, the alcohol for me, very distinct difference is I've used alcohol. I can kill somebody an hour from now. I smoke packed cigarettes. I've hurt myself and I've hurt my own health. Right, exactly.

Don't forget, we still have the THC and gummies and all that other stuff sold in these stores. So there is an aspect that does affect others.

Yeah, that's what I'll look. I got a long list here, but a lot of the product does have THC in it. So you could be stoned and have a very similar effect to being drunk. There is a little bit of overlap. First thing, almost every convenience store, as we said, has some of these same products. So it's going to be hard to figure out where we stop. And I went to four today. Never been to one, so I'm out. But I went to four. All four of them did have way too much lighting. So all four of them, and they're all either right on Wakehampton or just all Wakehampton.

So probably everyone in the city is going to say about the same way, too much lighting.

But y'all are on that, so we're good. I did object to the retail loophole. I mean, they're just following the laws. They're not a loophole. It's just that's how they're coded. And three of the ones I went in today look basically the same. So I'm not sure. Maybe somebody owns multiple. or everyone who set up the second and third went, I didn't know what he was doing, and just followed. They sell cigarettes, cigars, plenty of gummies, plenty of various stuff. Some of it would have to be used for non-legal purposes, but I don't know that we have any authority there.

And they've got to be making a killing.

Now, the ones that won't will go away because competition will drive some out. I guess I want the enforcement mechanisms done, and then we can talk about it. I'm with most of them. It's hard for me to want to regulate free enterprise. I mean, it's just... I'm not saying you couldn't get me on board.

I'm just saying it's not my first... Choice. Mr. Booker, you made a good point about the THC. Correct me if I'm seeing wrong.

So I just looked up and as of actually August 25th of this year, the South Carolina law has moved to a 21 plus age restriction for consumable hemp and cannabinoid products. So again, for me, that is a enforcement. There is an existing standard there.

existing legislation that just needs to be enforced in my mind all all four of the ones i went in you know they had i'd they had we id they had signs they had i don't know how enforcing they were but they certainly were pushing the concept well i didn't buy anything but i probably would have got by

Well, like I said, this was a discussion just to gauge y'all's interest, and I think it's pretty clear where some folks stand on it. You know where I stand. I know where y'all stand. We'll see how things shape up.

I think there's been a number of valid points made this evening. I think this— This idea that there is certainly enforcement that can be stepped up in some regard.

I, for one, am not a fan of the signage or the overuse of the signage. That's pretty easy to cure.

Some of the other things are fairly easy. I think to the point about free enterprise, I am... hesitant about how we try to enforce that. I get the idea that there are different kinds of categories of businesses and we have debated that long and hard over the last 20 years on sexually oriented businesses, on tattoo parlors, on piercing places, on now vape and smoke shops and gummies and all that kind of stuff. I think one of the things that we do have to understand is that Wade Hampton, you probably have as much of Wade Hampton in your district as anybody does, probably more. And that seems to me to be the most likely or prevalent place that they're going to locate. So it does likely affect your district more than any other. But even if there's one or two in the other districts, I see where that – can be a problem. I think Jay's approach, which he sort of framed a little bit earlier, is let's enforce what we've got. And then go from there. I think we've heard tonight that this might be a bigger fish even than we can fry. And this may be something that the state needs to address as well, too. So I think there are lots of options in that regard. And I think the conversation has been good. And I think y'all have got a pretty good handle at this point on where we can go ahead and start taking some positive steps to address some of these issues. And we can go from there. Does that seem appropriate?

Yeah, I mean, as long as we're on the board with enforcement, that's been the biggest challenge is allocating time and resources to it. If you all are on board with it, I'd love to enforce and see where we are in six to eight months.

Just like anything else, if we tell them to go enforce that, that means somebody's not enforcing something else.

Well, enforcement is a directive in some regards from this group, but there's also a tradeoff as well, too. You know, do we want to... Take police off the streets to, you know, enforce, you know, looking for people that are buying underage or that sort of thing. You heard... today that, you know, there are some issues that we can address with, you know, with additional people. So that becomes a budgeting question in some regard as we move forward.

Here's a suggestion that we could pass along to the PD, and I don't know that it works in this situation, but we, as Sidney Greer, are a part of it. And they've hit some big home runs on some stuff. That might be worth us asking them if – because there may be something that's underlying that we don't even know about. It's even a bigger deal.

How many strictly vape smoke shops do we have in the city limits?

13, my sense.

Really?

So I went to – I think it was –

And I was actually talking about if they're putting their codes of enforcement people on it, then they're not doing something else. They can only be in one place at a time.

And that's kind of, you know, to that point, you know, enforcement has been the challenge here where, like you said, you're taking staff from somewhere else. And in my head, I said, well, The easiest way to enforce or have compliance is just have restrictions in place and then you put it in place and you almost don't have to worry about it because it's there. You're just doing enforcements on occasion. But if we don't want to restrict free market enterprises. I understand that. So, um, as long as we're on board with some level of enforcement, which has been the challenge, um, and I'm not something I even from PD's perspective, even from, it's just from planning perspective, uh, because you have to go to these folks, right? You know, it's, it's a process and it's not just the smoke and vape shops. It's not quite as others as well. But, um, I've said my piece. I appreciate y'all listening.

I think it was a good point made earlier. Um, this is just one piece of the puzzle because I know that we have, um, people selling food out of their homes. We've got people that, you know, um, we've got unlicensed food trucks. We've got, you know, this is, this is a growing town with a lot of opportunities. And so, um, You know, we just got to figure out how we're going to address that with the resources that we have at this point. I know we get a monthly report of activity. How about y'all make a note to get back with us, let's say, 60 days from now and – Give us a little update on where we are. How about that?

On both sides, law enforcement and compliance, for sure. But if there's anything that... The community compliance, absolutely.

Any law enforcement activity or anything like that, I'll make sure that Chief Hamby includes that may affect this. So we will make sure that both the law enforcement side and the community compliance side are reflected. Yeah, you know, if nothing else...

I think that from a law enforcement standpoint and from a code standpoint, just a visit to say we've had this conversation would go a long way. Okay. Any other thoughts or comments before I close the workshop? That concludes our workshop for this evening. We'll gather here in about another 10 or 15 minutes for our regular meeting.