Public Works Committee - Regular Meeting

Sorry, I should have waited a sec. You're good. Um, first on the agenda is the review and approval of minutes of the June 9th meeting. Anyone have any comments, concerns? Otherwise, I'd entertain a motion. I move adoption. Second. Second. All in favor? I I opposed. Okay. Moving on to number three. discussion recommendations on the Sundex redevelopment public improvements. Take it away.

All right. Well, I will set the stage and kind of give a little bit of historic context about the process in general. And then we have a representative through Clark Deetsz that's helped and assisted the village with these public improvements. So, we'll have uh basically a sequence of different categories and topics that we'll be engaged with with the public works committee to go over those referral items. So, at the meeting on August 18th of this year, the village board reviewed the planned development district, the PDD petition for the Sendix Food Market. As part of that, like I said, uh Clark Deetsz alongside the village staff presented these proposed improvements during that August village board meeting. After that village board meeting, uh the village board made a referral to further investigate and address questions regarding the proposed public improvements to the public works committee for further discussion and potential recommendation back to the village board. So that's why we're here today with this topic. It should be noted and it's important to note that in addition to these specific referral items that we're going to be reviewing today that there were are there are other proposed public improvements as shown within the packet on exhibit A. So with that I believe that we should just go number by number have a discussion with the uh public works committee. If there's any additional questions beyond the presentation with CJ and myself, then we can have that and then hopefully get some consensus through the public works committee with each one of those uh one of the seven action items and referrals.

So with the first one, I'll just read it out loud so we're all on the same page with the first referral item. It was to review if a pedestrian meeting median on the intersection of Lake Drive and Bowmont Avenue can be incorporated into the design. A little bit of background into this has been a topic that uh public works committee has discussed in the past. So back on November 11th, this topic was uh an agenda and discussion item that was presented regarding Bulmont Avenue uh traffic study and recommendations. That traffic study included data collection, crash and near miss analysis, capacity analysis, existing conditions, alternatives, and conclusions with recommendations. During the November 18th village board meeting, there is a motion to move that uh study agenda and recommendations to a future public works committee meeting. So, a lot has happened since the previous referral back to public works committee and where we stand now. But uh with that previous uh November of 2024 study and the Sendix uh redevelopment, there was an additional traffic study that also was analyzed and incorporated and was complimentary to the 2024 study with that. So both of these studies have recommendations on the intersection of Bowont and Lake Drive to include right turn only movements on Bowmont to Lake Drive as well as other improved pedestrian crossings. So with that going back to the original question was if um a pedestrian median on the intersection of lake and bulmont can be incorporated. So part of the original site plan and uh public improvements did not show a median. So that was one of our uh tasks with the design team is to see from a uh the geometry, the width, uh traffic

patterns, the review of the previous analysis. Could this be added to the site plan with those recommendations? So, with that, uh, I'll give it over to CJ and we can pull up, uh, potentially exhibit A onto the screen so we can follow more with what that would look like with that proposed median and we can have a further discussion once everyone reviews that site plan. Good evening everybody. CJ Clark Deetsz here. Thank you.

Part of the design team. If you go to the straight right on that probably stay zoomed in like this, it'll help. and then maybe up a little bit at the intersection there. So, thank you Matt for setting the stage on this one. I think uh the question was Lake Drive north and south if a median can fit in with our proposed improvements as we had them about a month ago. Um the pavement width in that area, even with the ADA ramps and the bumpouts and all the stuff on the sides of the street, we still had enough room in the middle of the street to add some feature. Um, we show on the north side, which is north of Bowmont. Um, I call it a teardrop, but it's 6 foot wide at the ADA crossing to about a 4 foot wide at the at the end. It kind of tapers down very similar to what you would see on Lake Drive and day. Um, Lake just north, right? There's a couple other Lake Drive uh medians as such. So, we mirror dead style so Lake Drive could have its feel. We allowed for 11 to 12t driving lanes through there. you can fit it. On the south side, we decided to stay away from that um because of turning movements into Bulmont, whether it's trucking, box trucks, whatever the case may be for the Sendex use, as well as um Lake Drive, whether it backs up or doesn't back up from signals. Um didn't want to have a median constricting the area even more. So, we wanted to free up the intersection on this subs. Uh the north side also allows for a little bit better uh pedestrian crossing. You know, there's a safety zone between the two. um and in general gives the feel of Lake Drive to the north. There's a couple drawbacks to this. Um really it's one parking spot on each side is the drawback. So, as you can see by the um it's hard to see, but that white car on the top right of the screen there, um we could probably shift it a few feet and call it a day and it'd be good if we didn't have the median. If we put the

median in there, we have to push the line work. And basically, we need an 11 12 foot lane through there. So, as you can see the double yellows, how it triangles up to the top. We have to just push those lines off. So, then we start cutting the sides of the cars off. We'd have to basically lose a parking spot on each side of of Lake Drive, one on the northbound and one on the southbound side. And CJ, I I appreciate you said the feel of Lake Drive and that's very similar to the comment we heard uh with the village board in the past is there's other very similar medians on Lake Drive just to the north with Bell Day and Carile that this will if anyone's driven past the any of those intersections with the median will feel identical to that lake drive experience. So we tried to mirror that with the one that's now being proposed on the screen. CJ, would 12 feet be enough to accommodate both a vehicle uh on the north end of uh where the meeting is? There would it be enough to accommodate both a vehicle and a cyclist? I know there's a lot of cycling traffic there as well.

Uh well, they would have to share the space. Yeah, they would have to share the space. That's no difference than what you would see more down Silver Spring. On Lake Drive to the north, you don't have the bumps of the outside curbs, so you would still have like some parking lane feel with the bicyclist. In this scenario, because we are moving the curb line on the outsides of the roads, it will feel more restricted in that sense. Okay. So, they would have to share the space, but there is enough space. They would they would be Yeah, they'd be sharing. Well, it'd be a shared lane of traffic for the bulk. It wouldn't be side by side. It would have to take their turn. Exactly. Okay.

Exactly. Thank you for clarifying that. A couple questions. Um, so first, uh, is it's interesting that teardrop shape. Is there a point to having it so large? I mean, I understand the concept of pedestrian refuge. You you want to be able to stop in the middle or it's not like you're actually taking refuge, but um, why is it why is it so long? What what what does that do? And and and actually, can you talk about the yellow triangle as well behind it? Like what I get the yellow triangle. It's a visual way of hey there's a image coming up or a concrete coming up. But why is it as long as it is?

So that what you have seen here and it may go a little off the screen to the top there. It's a it's a copy and paste from your other intersections. So the aesthetic of this feel is what you would see north. So it could be shorter, it could be longer. Okay. So, let's I mean, aesthetics are great except I I guess at the point the only downside is the loss of parking, which is what it is. I I guess I I don't really mind that. I'm just um wondering why it's such a long piece of concrete. And I think the answer to that is it doesn't need to be. Doesn't need to be. It could just like how the where the number six is there on the bottom of that, you could just flip it and it would just be more of a circle and

if you did make it shorter, would you still lose parking? You would basically you'd pull it down. I forget the exact number, 25 or so feet. Those double yellows, those those lines that you were speaking of, you have to tell the driver that they have to move over, right?

So that's why that those double yellows are like that. It's a certain length because of the speed of the lake drive. So it does with how you have to the north, the length of it is appropriate. So we copied that. Um it would still be the same shift. And when what I mean by shift is if you're driving, you have to move over three feet, right? three feet on the north north side, three feet on the south side, right? So you'd have to move your car over three feet. That double yellow gives you that visual, tells you to move. Um, so it would still have to be the same length of double yellow. You would just it would be closer to the uh right cross. Would you lose the two car keys if you made the median small?

It would be um you would likely be able to save them. You would likely be able to save them. So what we're saying is I mean putting aside the concept that it's nice to have less parking close to a pedestrian crossing, right? All it is is aesthetics is what's stopping us from maintaining those two parking spots. Right. Right. That's right.

Okay. We we just heard what the comments were at the last village board specifically to match try to have like consistency was what we heard at the last village board meeting and try to match the lake drive and that's what we presented but if the desire of the public works committee is to narrow that by all means that's that's easy line work but we were just trying to follow the direction narrow it or shorten it shorten short correct shorten it understood I I I mean I don't know where that leaves us if we just say hey we don't care about us thetics. Let's save those two parking. Um I mean I I imagine the church would probably be really interested in that. Yeah. Um I would agree.

So that's a dis a discussion as long as we're still in kind of a commentary phase. I am interested in the comments that uh trustee Holler made about that uh this gap here and how indeed I I think that's one of the number one reasons why we didn't do this 7 months ago was we were concerned about bike traffic going south and really going north and needing to share that one space like there's cars coming up behind you. You need need to, you know, make that. So here's my question and that is we also have this bumpout. You know we're we're adding two things to that intersection now. We're adding a median and a bump out which maximizes safety. Sure, but at the same time also creates an issue for bicyclists, right? And so what would happen if you only did one of those things? Don't do a bumpout. So that then you would have bicyclists being able to go through that path. Is is that would that be possible? Is that accurate? Are we compromising pedestrian safety for bike safety? I guess do you have comments on that?

The last version of this that you saw didn't have the teardrop in the middle of it which gave you 15 foot lanes which gives you more space for bicyclists to go. So in short that answers you don't if you just take the median out and you just do the bumps it gives you 15 feet which would be an 11 foot lane and a 4ft bike lane theoretically speaking right so that that would check that for bike um if you kept the median and you didn't do the bumps you would have 16 17 feet to do the same version of things. The problem with the median is that it if you put the median in by itself, you're likely going to lose more parking because you have to diverge the driving lane into where the parking. So, if you do the bump out, it will likely create a more controlled space for where those pedestrian crossings are while still allowing for the parking to remain. If you start doing stuff in the middle of the road, you have to do more uh shifting of the lanes, the driving lane to be able to move them left and right. CJ, can you also speak about the benefits to bumpouts in regards to the parking? Like I was on a few calls that Tatty spoke about the sight lines, the uh if you're going north or going south and you see the curb line come in the parked car getting in and out of your car, having a bump out there, you are in more of a protected space just parking in your parks parking stall. So, um,

and also ability for the pedestrian when they go out, they can see past the parked cars and are able to see the oncoming traffic better with the bumped out bumpout as well. Yep. So, when you're standing there in that blue space trying to cross Lake Drive, you are standing five feet, I'll say, into the road, you're still in your sidewalk, but you're standing five feet closer to be able to see in this scenario up and down Lake Drive. How how wide is it right here? Um, that space right there. I had on the last throng. Let me see going 14. If I remember right, it was closer to 16 ft on each 15 or 16 feet.

So essentially, we've created a really short bottleneck right there. Can you show me again? I'm sorry. It was right. I mean teardrop. Yeah. Yeah. where the teardrop is. I mean, that is maybe a barefoot bottleneck essentially for cars and bikes, I would say, to to navigate through. Sure. Yep. I mean, I I I think the medium here we're throwing everything we can at it. I I think that we threw one too many things in there. I think that the teardrop might be the problem that we're, you know, we're creating a problem with the teardrop. I do. Yeah. Oh, well, I was just going to say I do worry about bikes and cars waiting for that space, but

Well, I was just going to say especially there. I think that intersection works in a lot of places. I don't know the number of cyclists that go up and down Lake Drive every day, but I would assume it's in the hundreds when the weather's decent. Yeah. And I know that bikes can take the lane and sometimes they have to, but that assumes that traffic is paying attention um and that people understand that bikes can take the lane. And I just I really worry about the amount of bike traffic we have there and not having some sort of dedicated lane. Yeah. Um and and six foot is the narrowest you would do an island, right? Um we've

Or was that four? It's six on the Oh, got it. Yep. In this scenario, yes. In this scenario, yes. You have enough. Yes. So you wouldn't consider a 4 foot all the way across all the way instead of a teardrop foot though. Yeah, I know. But I'm just That might be even like you need to make it so so narrow that everybody knows who's taking that lane and not oh the bicyclist can squeak by. You know, it's that it's that getting sideswiped.

It's that awkward when you get to like it's just enough wide enough for me. I I I think I would recommend taking out this teardrop, you know, I think that that balances all the possibilities. And I mean, and keep in mind what's interesting about this is um we we went through it at the village board meeting throwing out ideas, right? Hey, what about this? What about that? Let's ask these questions. And this isn't really a draft recommendation. It's more let's talk about some possibilities. So it's you know you you might have not have designed it this way right? Uh how I originally how we originally had it is

how you so what I first thought right so to put this in could fit but there is the the drawbacks that you guys are talking about that I'm glad you guys have said out loud. So are we recommending no teardrop

well let's we do have quite a bit of public here so I I'm curious to see apparently I have agreement on that. Um, so I'm curious to see what the public has to say. And what I'll do is as we go through each of the items, we will bring public comment up. So hold your comments if it's for a later item till we get to that item. We're going to focus on one thing at a time. And also because we have oh so many of them, if um someone has said something that you agree with, you can just come up and say, "I agree." Rather than, you know, restate unless you've got some new something new to add to it. I definitely want to hear from everybody, but just trying to be mindful of time. So, if anyone from the public

Do we want to finish? Can we finish? Oh, yes. Intersection. Yes, we're gonna finish this intersection and then we'll and then we'll move on to the next one. Okay. So, if is there any other comment on the meeting or is I can go to the section about the RRFB, the rectangular rapid flash and beacon that we could have as a I did have one question as well. So that the intersection the the pedestrian crosswalk that's to the south is that feeling as safe or I don't know why it just is striking me oddly. Yeah. No bump out no median. Well there is the tail end of the bump out there I guess. So

but I just feel like there's so many arrows turning into that. It just just curious to So are you talking right where the cursor is right there on the south side? They could get used to using the little pointer thing that is there another pointer over there. She's I got one. Well, I want to get him him one. Oh. Oh, there should be like There's your pointer. I'll get that one. What's the point here? Maybe the

So, this condition versus the condition of today. So, the condition of today, you're walking almost 48 feet across the road. Now, you're walking 38 feet across the road. So, we've narrowed it by 10 feet, five feet on each side. Um, short of putting a median in, short of extending the bumps further, which then caused an issue for the turning movements of that intersection. Um, this is kind of that optimal 5 foot each side bump before you start feeling even more narrow. Thank you. For the for the lake drive. Okay. Also, CJ, if you can comment how you see the sidewalks and how we've moved and shifted those to have a straighter crossing than what they were on an angle as well. Also, we're trying to also reconfigure where those crossing spots are to shorten it like you're saying by the five feet on each side. So, that's a change.

So, here's your existing crossing right here. You see it maybe right underneath there and right underneath there with the the lighter sidewalk with the stripes right here as you go across. We've that angled walking distance. The road might be 48t wide, but you're walking 52, 53, 54t wide as you go at an angle. Sure. So, what we've done is we've actually stepped these sidewalks so that you do cross perpendicular to the lane of traffic, which is is a very is a big improvement for the safety of the pedestrian as they walk across the road. If they do that as opposed to just like do this and do their own thing, but the intent is you're channeling them to where they're supposed to be.

No, I understand. But I imagine if you're walking down that sidewalk and you see the sidewalk straight ahead of you, the idea of jogging to the south to make the correct crossing there there will I suspect be a number of people who don't choose to do that a certain level of things where you can give the best intent and that's the intent okay um go ahead

okay so back to RRFBs so the same flashy things that you see around town on Lake Drive and Bell Lake Drive and Day by the public library where you push a button and it illuminates the flashing beacon we asked for the opinion uh from Tatty who developed Ed are uh traffic studies both for Sendix as well as the village and their comments are included as well as a graphic on the total crossing volume as part that part of the memo uh without going verbatim on Tatty's memo. They they stated that um there's certain criteria that they use to see if this would be um a solution as far as enhanced crossing with that RRFB using the traffic engineering operation safety manual. Uh part one key part is that uh they recommend a minimum of 300 ft away from a controlled crossing. uh considering the Q line of Silver Spring and Lake Drive. Um it meets that criteria, but it also felt too close still to that intersection. So that's just their opinion with that one based on all their traffic analysis and the Q lines and the offset from Marble Lake Drive and Silver Spring to have that RRFB on the median. Um, so now that there may not be a median, that might change a little bit of that discussion just as a a bookmark to that point. Not to say that you can't put one there. So, uh, another point to that specific uh, note is as Tatty mentions about the unlikeliness of WISOT would allow this on a connecting highway being Lake Drive. I did check with Mustafa, our village engineer through Clark Deon.

We we maintain Lake Drive. We would be able to put one there. So that I just want to clarify that. Addy needs to get on the same page.

Yeah. So I wanted to make sure I said that out loud that that's not completely true. We have them in other locations as I just mentioned. So I don't want that to take away from the discussion if it's warranted um based on their opinion. I'll say can we put in there? Yes, if that's the recommendation of the the public works committee and the village board. Um, so with that, there's a secondary just as we were talking about RFBS. I know we'll be talking about different areas within the exhibit, but there was more of a hard no for Hollywood and Silver Spring because it is less than 200 ft from the lake and Silver Spring uh signal, which I agree with that that seems pretty tight to be putting one of those in close proximity. But I do feel that it is a good dialogue for this committee to further engage if it makes sense to have one at that intersection. Um based on how close in proximity it is to that intersection just to note uh Devon or Devon depending on how you say it in Lidal. We just put that one in uh last year and that's about the same distance that you have to Port Washington. So again that 330 ft is distance for that one. different analysis, but just using that as a comparison.

Using that as comparison though, the one on Devon uh that has far less than 19 20 people per hour crossing. It's only during little league is when it's used. So, correct. You know, the other 300 days a year, it's you know, one person per hour if that it's peak flow for that one for sure, which which then why wouldn't you then use peak flow for this as well? So, I I agree. So, we're just sharing what the subject matter experts or engineers and traffic study, but I I think it should go beyond what's on paper here as far as it does it feel that that would be a necessity and what does the committee feel about that? Go ahead.

I was just going to say I also think these numbers aren't exactly correct because the intersection as it exists now is kind of hellish to cross and so I think a lot of people just don't do it. They either go all the way up down by Cody and cross or you know they'll wait go to the stoplight and cross. I think I think there are people avoiding that intersection. I think they'd be worried more worried about crossing at the stoplight than they would be there. That stoplight's pretty crazy, too. And would we put it it would be on both the north and the south? Our crosswalk.

Our original intention is if the committee had the desire to be on the north would be like more of that primary crossing with the median. But now if that's not the case, I think we would have to further look at it. I still would encourage because of just the distance from the intersection of Lake Marorrow, Silver Spring to encourage crossing if you do have that desire to the north, but I can see a world where we have all four corners because we we do that in other locations as well. So CJ, I don't know if you have an opinion on the four corners versus just the enhancement to the north. I personally think one crossing is probably what you all you would need. Do the north or the south? I would do likely I would do the north.

I'd likely do the north. And um if you have two rapid flashers back to back in an intersection, you have two people. It might muddy that waters of that intersection causing a causing a traffic issue, not now meaning people are backed up in the intersection, slowing down, backing up into Lake Drive, backing up Marboro, down to the south. So you got to kind of take that into consideration. I get that. But I'm also thinking more people will be crossing at the south. That's my gut feel. The there's business on, you know, southern. There's not business up above on the north.

And that is a wider intersection that we're considering to be less safe. It also would encourage people to jog and do the, you know, cross the appropriate. I mean, unfortunately, I have no data, but I I think it's south, too. And I but I wonder it'd be interesting to hear from some of these people because that north one is where you can get to St. Monica School and to Richard's. I mean, I know if you live a little bit up further, obviously you're going to cross it, right? Is that day? No, whatever that one is up there near Clo, whatever that street that runs this way. Is that Bell Street?

Yeah. Um, but the people that live in that block here, I know because I know when I used to take test to school in the morning and go to St. Monica's and come down Lake Drive because I live on the other end, lots of people stop there with their strollers and stuff to cross on the north side of on the north. Yes, I I agree. At certain times of the day, maybe the south would be, but there at pickup and drop off in the morning that part,

the northern part is so it it might be at different times like equal. I don't know. Yeah. I think I'll say one other thing about um volume. I'm sorry about um uh traffic backups and and that people are going to cross the street period. They're going to cross at Bumont. They're going to cross at Hollywood. Um I was talking to our chief of police and I mentioned this issue to him and he's like, "People are going to cross. Why don't we make it safer for them?" And I had difficulty in trying to combat that concept. Um the the concept that uh traffic is going to back up because pedestrians are crossing is kind of that's the point. Like that's why we put that there and now they can do it safely because guess what? Pedestrians have the right of way in a crosswalk. So they they might as well make it safe for them. And if traffic backs up, well that's a bummer for traffic, you know. And that that same logic goes for Hollywood as well. But we'll get to that in

Yeah. In a three hours. Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle. No, I Jim, I just say I would agree with the north. I think during especially during school time and I go both directions um to and from my house and especially during pickup and drop off time. The north end is it's the wild side. Maybe we make it diagonal. There we go. Um, do you have anything to add? So, if you hit that flashing light, can it do both north and south at once or I mean synchronized or Well, so the one on the one on KFax right now does that, doesn't it? Correct. It's on all four corners for F Kfax and Marorrow

and Marorrow. And the other Yes, they're all Bluetooth, so they all communicate no matter if you have two or four. It's wireless technology that communicates. So, if you push the button on one end, it'll have that rapid flashing on whatever other side you put them. Okay. I mean, so is that a potential answer to the problem or is there a concern about doing that? Uh, just what CJ brought up as far as just having that gap between the two and having But again, do we have it both ways within our community? Yes, we have it on all four corners. And then there's others that it's concentrated on one side uh by Cloody Park, for instance. That's one side of the crosswalk on Bell and Day. It's not all four corners.

Okay. So, what I'm hearing, and anybody correct me if I'm wrong, that we seem to be leaning towards eliminating the island and adding the the flashing the rapid flashing beacons. Yeah. Just to the north. Well, TBD.

Awesome to hear what people have to say. Can let me add one other thing that I sent an email like a month ago about this because I because of the data that we collected back in November whatever month we had another meeting where we talked about eliminating uh left turns and and so I'm I'm just going to read what I had written in that in five years there were 10 accidents um but zero of those crashes were turning left And so I I don't understand why we're eliminating left turns when there haven't been any accident. I mean, not that it's not a good idea, it's just it's it's interesting that we're picking on left turns when there hasn't been any problems with left turns. It's actually um people going straight are the the problem. Typically going, you know, this direction and getting hit by north or southbound traffic. Um, so c can you explain what's what are we doing here? Why are we stopping left turns if that's not really the issue? Oh, I'm looking at you then.

Yes. So, I did receive that email. I reached out to our chief of police on that just to review the accident data. What he came back with is that we now have 15 accidents since 2017. Oh, more. and he reviewed the accident reports. Straight on Bowmont across lake six. Left turn from Bowmont onto lake three. Left turn from lake onto Bulmont 3. And straight on lake and rear ended by a vehicle behind three. So you're getting a melody. Six more left turners. Okay, that makes more sense.

Also congestion, too. I mean, we talk about traffic back, but if someone during a busy time of day is trying to go left out of there, it's going to back up quite a ways. I mean, right's just going to be faster. It's going to be especially as we've narrowed it and there's no way to go around somebody turning left. It's going to be frustrating if you want to go left, but it'll be faster and there'll be less congestion. Works for me. One one last thing, just a quick question. Is this this yellow striping that's just paint, right? Paint. paint. We didn't want to put uh anything raised or any other concrete or anything um just because of the the roadway is narrower east and west. So, we wanted them to be able to at least utilize that that space.

Okay, I'm good. Good. Good. Okay.

Okay. Back to what I was saying earlier. If you have anything to share about this intersection in particular, please come on up to the front. Uh state your name and address as a part of the public record and share your thoughts. Hi. Uh, my name is Emily Fans Kray. I am a resident um at 5635 Northshore Drive. I live on the corner of Shore Drive in Bumont. Um, I've been a resident there for 5 years now. Um, I have a four-year-old daughter who attended community preschool at the church on the corner for the last two years. Um, and I've been in communication with Matt. So, Matt, it's great to meet you um, in person um, about this intersection for quite some time. Um, so I'm here today with um, five other Bowmont residents. Um, so there's six of us here total. we've taken, you know, the time away from our families because we think this is a really important issue and we want to to make sure that you guys all understand why this is such an important issue for us. Um, and they'll come up and state their name and hopefully say they agree with me. Um,

you just raise your hand. Yeah.

So, um, I'm glad that we're looking at this intersection with regards to the other intersections um that are very similar to it. So, Matt and I have had conversations. Lake View has parking restrictions. Carile has a median. Day has a median in lights. Bell has a median in lights. And for whatever reason, Bulmont has no had had no safety issues um or had no safety um parameters in place. So, one of the biggest issues with crossing from Bumont going east or west um on Bumont uh across Lake Drive is that the parking on Lake Drive for the businesses on the west side of Lake Drive. So, across the street from Sendex um they will park all the way to the crosswalk. For some reason, there's just no uh it's unlimited parking. There's no one-hour parking signs. There's no um parking stalls painted on the road. And so today, um, cars do, and they do, I would I'd welcome you to come and drive by and try to walk and cross that intersection, especially at 8:00 in the morning or 3:00 in the afternoon. Um, the busy times, you cannot see, um, beyond the parked cars. And the parked cars, uh, someone driving by can't see you. So, one thing I know Matt mentioned at the meeting, the board meeting that we had a couple m weeks ago, is that it was a comment I made. If I want to cross that intersection with my daughter in the stroller, I have to park my stroller on the curb, walk out into the road, check to make sure that there aren't any cars coming because I can't see beyond the parked cars, run back, unlock my stroller, and try to quickly run across the street in what I think is a free time to be able to cross the road. It's terrifying. Um, as my daughter gets older and as all the other children that get older on the street want to cross on on their own, I'm worried about this. So, I appreciate the bumpouts. I think getting an additional 5 ft will help. I'm still concerned that it looks like

in this drawing that there are parking spots directly up to the the um the bumpout. I am still concerned that even being parallel with the cars won't necessarily give you an advantage in sight lines as the pedestrian or or as a driver. Seeing a pedestrian behind a parked car. This is a very busy intersection. If you and it's and it's and it's dangerous because if you're trying to make the light, you're not looking at a pedestrian. You're trying to catch the the the the green before it turns yellow before it turns red. Um also, if you've just made it through that hellish intersection, you're focusing on trying to continue to to move, you know, north on Lake Drive. So, also now knowing that there's, you know, we can see that loading dock for Sendex is going to be on Bowmont. This is going to become an even busier intersection. Um, and so I do think that we need more than bumpouts. I think lights would be wonderful, but I also really was hoping to have the median. And I appreciate the concern about bikers um and that this is going to get tight. I think without the median, it's still going to be tight. I think the median is Kevin, you said it. where it's extreme safety. Why wouldn't we put in an extreme safety measure? Um, having to go to the north. I'd rather walk to the north and cross at a median than be able to cross at the south intersection, which would get me closer to the New Sendex and Argo and all of the other great things that we have on Silver Spring. I'm willing to go north and cross there as long as I have a median. Um,

so you normally would be south. Is that what you're uh if we could keep the median at the north, I'm willing to to go, you know, and cross north even if that today. So today now I today now I still go to the north to cross because crossing at the south is

is very dangerous because of the parked car issue. So there's like the fringe salon the there's a bu businesses there in Johnson Bank. Everyone parks on that side of Lake Drive on the west side of Lake Drive up to Bowmont. And like I said, for whatever reason, there's no parking restriction. There's no painted stalls. So, people will park all the way to the crosswalk. And I've called the non-emergency number asking if they can come around and they the the police have said, "We would like to. We literally just there's no there's no it's not against the law what people are doing. We know it creates a sight issue, but it's not against the law." And are you talking about the west side or the east side? I'm talking about the east side. East side.

East side. I'm sorry. That's what I thought. Yeah,

thank you. East side. Um, so the and and you know the parking losing the parking spots to have the bump out or the median at the north intersection. There's not a lot of parking there on a normal basis to begin with. And if we're gaining so many more parking spots on Bumont, I don't really see why we can be concerned about losing a parking, you know, parking spots. maybe we could by losing the parking spots gain additional space for the bikers to be able to have a have a lane to kind of share the road with us. Um I think that you know the other thing is the the being no no left or no right turns or right turn only. If if we have a mixed bag of accidents from being rear ended because somebody stopped for a pedestrian and nobody saw them stopping for the pedestrian and they got rear ended which I've seen happen twice um at trying to be the pedestrian crossing. I've seen it happen twice. Um, I think that if we could restrict it to no left turn instead of right turn only, that might also help with some of the backup and traffic if somebody does want to go back and forth um between those those um that intersection. But

so you're you would be in favor of people being able to drive straight down through especially because of living on Bowmont. If I want to get to Sendex right now, I do go straight. Um, it's just as dangerous to go straight as it is to go right because of the parking parked cars that completely block the intersection. I've had cars as I'm trying to turn right on Bowmont from going uh west on Bowmont to go north on Lake Drive. Even if I'm trying to turn right, so

yeah, like this. Um, I've had cars beep at me because they think I'm blowing the stop sign when I'm really just getting out as far as I possibly can to see behind the parked car to see if they're coming. Um, and that's a right turn. So, so you know, a right turn only is not a is a solution is not the solution. Um, it's restricting the parking and which could happen tomorrow. I'd love to just put up my own sign. I'll call Tapco and put my own sign up. No parking pass this point. Um, it it is interesting what you mentioned just about um painted squares which we have on Silver Spring. We don't have here. Well, and I'll say, you know, after working part-time at Highbrow for several years,

the people that park there are employees of Highbrow. Yep. Most of them. Because there is nowhere else for them to park. That's their problem. But so I think if if you restricted like that parking spot at the very end close to the the crosswalk, like if you like you stopped the parking and even if you put a sign no parking from here up, I don't know that that would totally help. Lake actually the lake the lake view the lake view and lake drive intersection has that. Yeah. Um and does that you think that helps or

I think it does. I think it helps at that intersection a lot. I don't know why we don't have that. I think it was I actually there's a very faded paint line that at some point maybe there was something there. It's just this intersection hasn't been looked at in a long time. Um, so if there's something like until this happens, if we could get, you know, painted stalls and a a tap co sign that says no parking from here over. My my biggest point about that is is they park there from 8 until it closes at 7. Like those women that work there, they get to work at 8 and they don't leave until 7 or 7:30. So their cars are there in that that spot all all day. Yeah. And and I I know that some of them drive very large

Yes, they do. SUVs because that's also what makes it hard to c to see past.

Um, so, you know, just the four things really here is that lights would be great. A median at the north end would be great. I I get it why Sundex doesn't want to have one on the south. They need their trucks to be able to get through. Fine. But having a median at the north would really be like the extreme version of safety. Why wouldn't we be extremely safe in a city where everyone walks and bikes? Um, restricting parking just one or two spots back, especially since we're getting so many more spots, I think would also help with with safety. And then finally, just, you know, maybe a restriction on no left turn, not right turn only, would still kind of get you, you know, where we're at today.

Is there any time limit on that that new parking they're going to have on Bulmont or is that going to be good question that diagonal parking is that all day? They can park all day there. hasn't hasn't been decided. Oh, okay. So, eventually there will be an update to the parking map that will be brought forward after all of this is finalized and that's when the official action will take. And do we send letters to those businesses like Fringe and Highbrow and Johnson Bank and stuff like that about the park? Not about the bumpouts and stuff, but like when if we take away parking just so they would know to sort of think for themselves. I mean,

it's directly in front of me though, aren't they? Right in front of the little house that High Brown Fringe is in, there are two meters and then there's the house there with the driveway and then from the driveway to the edge of Bowmont, it's parking. No restrictions. There's no meters or anything there. So, it's like a loophole. They can park there for hours. They can also park over, but here's the thing. They can also park over on Bowmont right now near the church. But here's why they don't. They're afraid to cross the street. Do they ever take a right and go

they do go right and they do park on B they do park but the employees don't park there first of all because they're some of the first people there in the morning I also think they are aware of the fact that those are people's houses and I don't think they necessarily want to park in front of somebody's house all day but that's Lake Drive so it's they're literally parking in front of well except for that house whose driveway but I think they feel like they're parking in front of businesses they try to park on the other side where there aren't me you know at the one end so on Lake Drive there are some meters in front of like Synix where the office used to be and then there's a big spot where there aren't any meters. They also try to park over there. I mean, they're trying to be They're not trying to be bad citizens of Whitefish Bay, but they do have to have somewhere to park all day. So,

it's one hour parking on Bowmont to the east. Oh, is it? Okay. It is. It does have a sign as one hour. Okay. CJ, that could be changed. Uh, not to reinvent the wheel, but I know if you go on Lake Drive closer to UWM and Milwaukee, the bike paths carve through the bumpouts in a few locations. Is that something that would be possible here to accommodate both? I know we we might be at risk of just cramming too much into this one space, but is that something that would be

Anything's possible, right? But with saying that, what I what I hear is you're losing the parking stalls because you have not just one stall. You're losing parking to be able to get that bike to the curb like to where the existing curb is. You have to bring them to that spot. Okay. So that that concrete or that median is off in the kind of where that Yeah. You you're going to lose parking and a lot of it. Okay. How much would you have to lose north of the intersection?

Likely. Well, we don't have the picture of what the next thing up to the north is, but that first driveway up to the north for that first home on the east side, you lose at least the parking up to that point. You lose parking likely across um most of the church on the south side depending on where you're putting your bike lanes and the interconnectivity of like the bike lane where it is today versus on the other side of that. You're going to have to, you know, Sure. And just to bring up by the church on that western the northwest side that's drop off and pick up where we have ADA parking for that church. So that would be at risk of and that that was important to the church that they said that's their main drop off pickup for elderly people to go to the congre at the sidewalk.

Yeah. Right there. That's where the ADA is. Y So you're start if you to your point you're starting to affect more than just Yep. Yep. Thank you very much. Anyone else on this intersection?

I know confus you guys change seats. Rick Davyy uh 5662 North Council Place right off of Bowmont as well. Um, as I look at that picture, I know that, um, SUNX has said they're going to try to minimize the amount of tractor trailers. Um, as you pulled up on Google the width of a bike last meeting for a median. I did that with a tractor trailer and they're like 70 to 80 feet long. Can that make that turn without impacting north south traffic? The we looked at the truck turning movements of what the sendex case scenario would be. Um coming like this. Yes. Coming

No, I mean coming out of the loading dock. Yes. Like this. Yes. They could they come in like this. They back up. They do their thing. Oh, I thought the loading dock was where the hatch marks were over there. Right here. That's for smaller vehicles, not not that's the ones like the bread trucks are waiting truck or not even a truck like vans things like that and that's our understanding also with that minimize or re eliminating the left turn um you're pushing everything north up to Lake View and the sight lines from council to Lake View are not good for traffic coming east. Um, so you may want to get out and

get a Starbucks coffee and walk in that corner. Wait, traffic coming east on Lake View. On Lake View, North on Council. Okay. Um, not good at all. And if you're adding Wait, I forgot what the study said. The number of cars going is a T. It's a T. Yeah. And then to turn left onto Lake Drive is also challenging as we speak now, let alone if you're eliminating that left on Lake View, you're saying. Yeah.

Yeah. That I mean, you're right that every every action we take has an opposite reaction somewhere else. You're pushing traffic, especially those who want to go north, they've got to do it somehow. And I mean with luck they take a left out of they get onto Silver Spring and take a left at the light going north on Lake. I mean that's the safest way because it'll be controlled. But you're not wrong. And are those those new angled parking are they actually like perpendicular with the sidewalk or are they angled?

So those are angled. So they're they're going you come in westbound come in westbound. You can park in, back out, and go like this. Same coming from going eastbound. You park in, you back out, and go like that. So, it's So, if you're going east to park, you're going to have to turn right no matter what. Once you park your car, if you're parking, if you're on Bounty Angled, if you're on an angle and try to back so you go west on Bow Mount, that might feel a little challenging. Not to mention taking a lot of Oh, if you wanted to park on the other side of the street, what what do you No. you back out of a spot that you're heading east. You back out, you have to continue to go east. Okay?

Then you have to go south and you have to go around and you have to go up to where the church is and deal with that in Richards and all that if you want to go north. Yeah. So, it's just um that's why I didn't know if those were straight in or if they are angled. Okay. I believe that's 17 stalls that are going eastbound directions. CJ, I can't squint. Um, but you have actually the seven right here that would be most critically impacted for that exact point. Yeah, these uh 13 over here, they can potentially go through Sendex parking lot if they're using Sendex to make their way back over to um council that way too.

Not that I want more traffic on council, but if they go further west, then you have the church and the amount of kids being dropped off there several times a day. And then you go north up to Richards, it gets equally as tough at certain times of day. So reconsider the uh changing the idea of not being able to turn left off of Bulmont and Lake Drive might be worthwhile. Just a thought. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This is a complicated area. So complicated. And part of that is because there are two schools that are so close in addition to the businesses. Well, the church and

Well, right. I mean, in the community preschool, but it's like and it's being utilized at the same time, you know, 8:00 a.m. 3 p.m. And yeah, just one thing I'd say before you go, and that is that this is there's a lot of difficulties on all four corners of all of this. And it's all going to get a lot better regardless of any choices we make. It's going to get incredibly much better. And we're now trying to, you know, pick the most optimal of the most better. But sorry.

Hi. Thanks. Uh, my name is Kimberly Tims. I live at 746 East Bulmont and I've lived there for almost 27 years. So, I've had kids go to Richards. I go to Sundex practically every day. And I've had kids go to community preschool. And I realize how difficult that intersection is. Um, I'm the one who sent you all a video. Did anybody see that video that I sent? Um, so I sent a video. Can I go over there? Sure. Okay. So, I sent a video coming from Bowmont Avenue in my car and I sent you my sight line. Anybody see that? Yes, I did see it.

Okay. So, the problem with any turn on Bowmont Avenue is these cars. Even turning right. I don't know. You should all look at the video because when you come out here, you have to inch, inch, inch, inch, inch all the way out here. Therefore, your car, it doesn't matter if you have these bumpouts or not. You are impeding those kids that are coming down on their bikes. You're impeding pedestrians coming out here because you have to bump out so far into the road to get past these

this sight line. So, it doesn't matter if you have this bumpout. The pedestrians can see, but we still can't see anybody even just trying to make a right turn. And that's what I was trying to show you in that video, just trying to make a right turn. You have to bump so far out in the road because of these cars. And I don't know that just eliminating one will do it. I understand that people at H Highbrow need to park there, but at what expense? Also, there's public parking, you know, right past Sendex, a public huge public parking lot if it's safer now for them to cross. safest for any p any car and pedestrians because now cars are coming out and blocking like you have to literally block like the the sidewalk coming down here with your car in order to see whether you're making a right turn, left turn or straight turn. I mean not straight turn if you're going straight. These are the huge problem with safety for everybody. So on record, these are the biggest problem. Doesn't matter if you make this median up here and turn right, you still have to go out into traffic and block everybody.

Thank you. I guess my response is a couple things that first I mean you're right. Let's just be right. I think what what is going to be mitigating is first of all there's a bump out here. So there's one car less. Mhm. To start with. Um and then secondly, because there's a bump out, you will be able you'll your car will be protected what four more feet, five more feet as you inch out further. So what you don't like right now, you'll have an extra 5T to get to that point of not liking being out in the middle. Like you'll still be blocking the crosswalk. I get it. I'm just saying that all those kids that are coming down. This design is definitely gonna make your problem

40% better. Like I I don't I don't know what% is. It doesn't matter if you're making only a right turn. That's still the problem. Yeah. Doesn't matter if it's right, left, or straight. These cars Oh, sorry. These cars are the back our screen. You'll be in Shorewood before you know it. So anyway, if you haven't, you should watch that video that I sent in November. Could you resend it? Yeah, I sure. I haven't. Do you guys want to watch it? Yes, via email. I'll actually resend it later. I send it, too. Well, I think you sent it originally to me. I did send Yeah, I did see it. So, we could I could find it and resend it. Okay. In conclusion,

question for you, though. So, you alluded to even if you're not turning left. So, do you have thoughts about the left turn, the right turn only? Um, I it's a dangerous intersection to try to cross anyway. I don't think right turn only solves the problem. I would love to still be able to go across the street to Sundex. I walk there a lot, but sometimes I have to get cat litter when I'm not walking with all that. But, um, so I think generally you're not in favor of right turn. I am not in favor of right turn only because that doesn't fix the problem. Okay. Okay. I I guess I try to keep reminding everybody that we're not going to solve every problem.

We're going to make everything, you know, 50% better and it's it's going to be 50% better. But such a simple solution, no parking right here. If it's they have a safe place to park somewhere else, eliminate this parking. Yeah. And that's my question. So, where do like the Sendex employees park? Ted, do they park in your parking lot? Is that where they park? Like your employees like on the not where the customers park obviously, but down back or something? the meter. Okay. And that public parking that's down there near, you know, where Fitzies is, the new parking structure that we built attached to it, is that just I feel like I've seen signs. Is that only for two hours that you can park? 10 hour parkour. 10 hour. Okay. I couldn't remember. Okay.

Yeah. And that structure further to the west is 10 hour. Okay. And to the right. I think as long as we offer people whether it's H Highbrow or Fringe or Synix or whoever I mean that's just I know other people that have worked in other places along there like at the Aurora parking the Aurora whatever that is right I a family member worked in there and finding parking for the long shifts was hard as well. So, I think we just have to as a community be aware that these people are working in our community. They also need somewhere to park. And it's terrible to have to have them pay, you know, 500. I mean, they can, but like it's nice to have some options that are more affordable as well as

and it's one thing to walk that in September. Yes, it is another very different in January. Well, and when it's dark in January, too. Not that this is not a safe community. I'm not saying that. But it's still it's unpleasant when it's negative 20, right? So I I would not lay I would not be in favor of eliminating all those spots. But I I agree with you. I think it I mean, as I said, having worked there, it's not great for anybody that you know, taking my daughter to school, I saw Molly trying to cross the street with her kids. I know it's not great. Next time you buy cat litter, Ted would be happy to take it home. see her all the time.

I funded this edition. The new Yeah, they have an island.

We're not done having fun here. No, go ahead. You want to interrupt us? Yeah.

Thank you. My name is Megan Hull. I live at 806 East Bumont. I live on the north side of Bumont nearshore. Um I am in favor of and I think we all are of the bumpouts and how tight it is actually with that 12 ft because my issue with the intersection is when I'm crossing someone stops for me but then someone behind them tries to go around and this stops them from doing that. Um, and I like also the angled crosswalk on the southbound because it also happens there going north, cars heading north. It happens on the north side of the intersection with cars heading south. And it's because you're focused on the light. You're focused on, oh, well, you're turning right. And then in the morning or in the afternoon or in the evening when cars do back up there, it becomes they kind of make themselves a little bit of a second lane. Um,

and that is the most dangerous of all because I cross that intersection several times a day. I have a child at Community. I have a child at St. Monica's. We have a child at Mathnasium. We're always crossing there. I know, and I'm an adult to look. So, I go out into the intersection and I have to look to see if someone is coming around them. And I've had several people lay on their horns to stop traffic or to turn their car to stop someone from going around. So, I'm very passionate about how tight it is there and I think we all are. So, you're in favor of the bumpout and the island? Absolutely. Keeping in mind, you're

right. I forgot about seeing I've seen cars I don't too stop and then other people go around them too and I'm thinking I don't even know what do they go around to the curb side or to the right like the curbside they're going to be stopped from doing that it's more the I'm just I'm still talking about the the the median

like I think the median is a great refuge because there there it is such a busy intersection and then and I think the bumpouts are great. I think the bumpouts would help a lot. I think the bumpouts would probably be close to solving the problem. I think it the flashing light is necessary. No one wants to hit you. Their life would be ruined, right? Not only yours, but theirs. It's they're focused on other things. And um as a child or someone that doesn't cross there frequently, you don't know to look around and see if another car is coming. Um and that's why I think it's necessary. And it doesn't matter to me if it's north or south. I personally think the north is safer to cross to begin with just because of the parking on Lake Drive there in front of um the businesses. Um and now with the trucks turning in, I think that would be the best the better choice for the median and the flashing lights. But I definitely think the bumpouts would help a ton flashing lights and median. Why not make it extreme?

And where are you on the left hand? The right turn only. Um, I would say the right turn only is very prohibitive. We do go I do go straight a lot through that intersection. There's times it's two there's two opposites to that. It's either no one's there or everyone's there. And at times when you hit it when no one's there, it's really easy to go straight. Thank you. Thank you.

Anyone else? I'll add my two cents for it. I'm Tom Pence and I live right on the corner of Shore and Bowmont and we have kids at St. Monica and the worst part of my day is when they leave on their bike in the morning across that street towards school because I'm so afraid of the of the people coming around. They I've told them so many times, watch both lanes there and and people will come, you know, even if somebody stops for you, there'll be someone flying past on the right side or bikes on that side. And people do it all the time. So, I was really hoping for the median honestly because then our kids can go halfway. They can see what's coming from one way, get there, and be much safer than seeing the other way. Right now, they have to go across the whole thing. And even flashing lights, which are also wonderful, uh still leave that long gauntlet you have to go across there. So a median would be much safer for the kids to get there and then continue the second half of it.

Okay. And feelings about the right turn only. Um so truthfully, when I go through there now, uh taking the kids to school, sometimes I turn right anyway because it's so dangerous to go across all the way. So, I turn right and then turn left on Lake View where I also used to live or go up another street and turn left. Um, just because it's safer than going across and uh I just don't I can't see when I c, you know, because of the cars blocking I can't see there. So, the right turn is okay with me. You're agnostic on that.

I wondered if you could uh do the right turn only at certain times of the day instead of all day. uh to the point about there are many times you there's no one there and you can go right across. It's really at peak periods when you can't. Okay. Thank you. Just for the record, there is no left turn from 7 to 9:00 a.m. from Bowmont going uh east. Sorry. No, from lake going south on Lake to left on during Oh, okay. So, I'm looking at the This is what I'm So, maybe I got that. Can't skip the light.

Can't skip the light. Yep, you're right. I'm looking at it from kind of the wrong angle here. That's a Sorry, that's okay. Hi, I'm Kelly Quadra. I'm at 5650 Northshore Drive. Um, I am in favor of the bumpouts. I'm in favor of the median and I'm in favor of the lights. I do think that we've all taken a right going north on Lake at Silver Spring and there's like a feeling of like freess that people get from going around that corner and it's like whoa I I just got past the light and like I'm on my way to work and that is why that intersection is that added danger is there is people are in a hurry. They're not just here for the community. It is also a commute to work. So also please take that into consideration.

Thank you. Thank you. especially while they're working on 43. Yep.

Hi, I'm Andrea Long and I live at 5655 Shore Drive. I'm on the I'm right across from Emily and Kelly. I'm on the corner of Shore and Bowmont. Um I don't have kids with me at home, but we certainly uh use Bumont all the time to go into the village. I also like to go at night to, you know, go to Moxy's and whatnot. So, I'm in favor of everything in that. the lit crosswalk, the bumpouts for sure. I like to drive straight across. You know, we all have our own traffic patterns because we live breathe the traffic and we kind of know. So, depending upon the hour, I'll all go straight through Lake View in order to cross because it's safer crossing that across at Bulmont and certain times. Mhm.

Um, you know, I I think that it right now we've had a bit of a lull because we lake has been closed at school route.

So, we have had more courage to cross the streets at this time. And I know when I was communicating with Matt um in the fall, you know, I understood the idea of temporary measures. I just didn't know when the temporary measures were going to be put in place because at this point nothing's been put in place and for how long and when do we turn it to permanent. So, you know, that's something else I'd like to consider. You know, what are the phases and kind of what is temporary so we don't go, you know, and kind of like what is going to be the permanent solution. Okay. And I have no problem with left. I don't really generally turn left. I go to um uh Silver Springs and Shore to go through the intersection to go straight across. You know, there's so there's so many different traffic patterns that we've all figured out.

Thank you. Anyone else? One quick one.

My name is Aaron Zeg, 933 East Silvin, and I have a kid at Richards. He's not biking to school yet. But the thought I have is just curiosity about because kids don't follow, you know, on the right going north and the the correct pattern. So it's real easy as a person. It sounds like the bumpouts are going to help this. So if that's true, I'm in support of that. But just curious about the consideration that kids are coming south from the east side of Lake Drive and it's real easy as a person coming from Bowmont or you know either direction going right it's real easy you're looking left for your car coming this way

and you're going right so everybody we've all done it but you like slide forward without really looking to your right while kids are flying you know at 8 a.m. and 3 p.m. uh and they're just not aware enough, you know, as is like their nature. So, just wanted to state that as a concern and it seems like maybe this pumpout is is addressing that and if there's any other ways to address that either, I have no idea what the options are, but just Thank you. Anyone else?

Okay, so revisiting with committee members. Um, anyone's thoughts changed? I've kind of become more pro median myself. I've become a little more pro median and I keep thinking about Edgewood um, and how they have a shared bike road lane there and it works pretty well. I think everyone hates it. Um, but it does seem to work. It seems to do what it is intended for and at least for part of it. Maybe we could do something like that just with road sign. It's just I still worry someone's going to get popped on a bike. But

someone did make a comment though too about bikes potentially popping pedestrians as they zip around cars as well. So the shared lane kind of avoids that too. Yeah. I mean I that could certainly happen. I just see that as less of a risk than a car. But No, for sure. For sure. But just any way that you can sneak around to stop car on anything. Um terror one one point in the pedestrian bicycle study is recommendation for sheros and that might be something that we can put on both sides just to be indicators for vehicles that you're merging ahead. I've heard that term before. I like it.

Sherrow. So those are road markings that we can do to kind of indicate that you're going to be sharing the road with a bicycle. So that could be just a small little gesture as you're trying to bottleneck and narrow down that was mentioned in our bike and pet study. Yeah. Um, I'm I guess we've changed our minds to being pro median. I think everybody's, you know, interested in maximum safety there. Um, uh, pro lights on the north side. Uh, I I I guess I've heard enough that I think we should ditch the left turn only concept. I'm surprised.

I'm surprised at it, too, because it's it it definitely adds some excitement to the to the intersection. Um, the one thing I although are you proposing 86ing the right turn only to make it right and straight? Are you what are you proposing it you could do whatever you want or are you proposing just restricting the left turn as opposed to making it right only? I don't know. Um, keep in mind that we can always add something like that easily later. So we can feel it, see how it's working, review,

hear back from the community and the residents as far as that. So that would be an easy thing with pavement markings and a couple signs to do right turn only later if that's the desire of the community. So we could eliminate essentially the yellow. Correct.

And I wonder too about we're already losing the one parking spot. What if we once we do that we see how that goes or take two and then decide if we want to do all of them? You know, I don't know if because I'm not good at judging space and how big things are. And I I feel like now like only three cars can really fit from the person's driveway to the edge, but it might be four, but I feel like it's only like three. So, if you lose one, there might only be two spots there anyway. I mean, I don't know. I think it's You can actually see in the Mhm. Yeah. But I don't think Yeah. Well, those are Well, first of all, nobody does that great of a park job. Let's be honest. So I think free is probably

But are you talking about include? No. Yeah. I just think it's tight. Yeah. People squeeze themselves. They do. Yeah. And they're not because I'm a master at parallel parking. So I can tell you that's like my only gift I have. You right there. Yes. But I just wonder if you lo if you lost one if maybe because people aren't even that great at Parkers or don't want to that it might get to where you only have two cars anyway. But I wonder if we just try the one and then if that the people don't feel like that's enough or maybe take instead of one take one and a half so that literally there's only I mean I don't know I don't know if we want to eliminate all the heat so we can we can deal with I don't know if we want to eliminate all parking right out of the sheet.

I don't think we do because I do think that I mean unless Six is interested in having those people use their parking lots. Um yeah my guess is we need to maintain some parking over there. So, one last thing, and this is kind of for CJ. Um, uh, Aaron mentioned kids and and how they're coming this way, and I'm what what was the rationale for this little offset here? Because it's not offset today. So, the angle of today crossing the road like this, straight,

we're trying to make it per perpendicular across so it's the shortest lane, the shortest walking distance across live traffic. So, if we were to angle it, this 12 feet would turn to 13 or 14 and it would be at an angle today. So, it's safer to cross. I know. I just I I feel like people are going to walk straight across. You know what I mean? On the south. They're not going to jog to the right to the north. That's how I feel about the south as well. What do you think of that? Would you jo the people in the audience who live there? Are you are you jogging to the north? Well, if we're putting the if we're putting the rapid flashing beacon though up at the square, you know, up there, you're trying to hopefully gonna encourage people to go to cross where they're supposed to.

If you want a safer cross and you're going to choose to cross where they went. Yeah. And if you train the kids early on that this is where we cross, you push the button. I mean, it it Yes. Because kids do what we tell them to. My children do. I don't know about yours, CJ. um south of so in front of the old Sendex, you know, Great Harvest spread, that stuff. Um what what is the parking situation going to be there? So that's such a wonky right now. Wait, what? In front of the Sendix Corporate. So up a little bit right here. Old breadth. The old breadmith. Sorry, I'm old my age.

Um across from Fringe. What is that? What's happening with parking there? Because our lines right now, when you look at that intersection, we've got this funky line. The, you know, Lake Drive goes straight, but the curb comes along with this. Will we maintain those parking spots or what's the So, there's a couple options that we're going to talk about in one of these next discussion points. Uh, in this scenario, we're maintaining the existing number of parking spots to match the existing number of parking spots. Okay. When we talk about that southbound Lake Drive in the queue for through left and right turn only, that's when we'll have a discussion about the parking on that western side. I think it might be the next bullet point on our list.

We're getting there. We're still on number one. Okay. So, for number one, making sure I have consensus. We want the median. We want the bumpouts. We want we're good with eliminating at least one parking spot on the east side of Lake Drive flashing. We want the rap wrapped flashing beacons, but we're going for the ultimate and we are for the time being pausing the not eliminating the Yep. We are not requiring it to be right turn only. Yeah. But we'll keep our eyes after we Yeah. Yeah.

Sound good? So all movements you can do left. Do all movements for now. All right, only an hour and a half later. Item two. Okay, item two, review the feasibility to allow a dedicated right turn lane on South Lake Drive. That was a good cue for this topic. Yeah,

to the south of Bumont Avenue. So, just as we had on exhibit A uh to start off with, we can point that out. Um, so this is also part of the recommendations from the original 2024 Bulmont traffic study uh that was presented to the public works committee to remove those in order to allow for additional turn movements onto uh from Bowmont onto Lake Drive and also that through traffic southbound prior to approaching the intersection. So with that, CJ, if you just want to show your exhibit based on the recommendations uh that we'll talk about today. So, we just talked about the existing conditions. Seven parking spots on the the west side of the road, which is right here. Um, two over here on the east side by the meter. And then four more. Um, Yep. right here. Right. So, as an option, we were talking about queuing and the turning movements into the intersection down here. We looked at designated right turn lane, designated through lane, and a designated left turn lane. as you enter the intersection of Marboro. Okay, with that being said, the width of the space down here at this intersection is wide enough where you can get 11 11 12 some combination of 11 to 12t lanes while still maintaining 16 to 18 ft um northbound. Um that would what that means today if you stand out there this double yellow lines would be a little bit closer to the east side. You have to move the yellow lines over to allow for the three cars to be queued up. Boom boom boom going in the southbound direction. Um, basically what this maneuver does will require two lanes of traffic coming into this intersection here, which will eliminate the parking stalls along Sendex, which

is seventh parking stalls. Um, as you enter the intersection of Bulmont, you're making your way south. You'll be meandering your way the side and decide at this point if you're going to turn left, get in this lane, or going to have straight or a right turning movement here. You're going to make your way to here. and you're going to decide if you're going to go straight or you're going to turn right down Silver Spring. So, it creates a change in the traffic movement, not so much down here, but up in this area here, Bulmont to um kind of this alley um with improved striping, shifting the double yellows. The drawbacks of that again is you lose your seven parking stalls um along the uh west side of Lake Drive. And I guess one thing to add, CJ, when we looked at the actual data from the traffic report, a majority of vehicles are making that left turn movement, 333 making a left versus 141 going straight and 71 with a right turn. So, it kind of puts in perspective with a majority of people are going lake drive to lake drive based on that uh turn movement and having a longer queue of that lefthand turn lane and allowing for that and identified and marked hopefully will help out with the people that are in queue for the straight and the right turn to shift that over. So that very well would be helpful because even as CJ were and I were following up at this discussion looking at Google Maps, you could see that the vehicle queue and kind of the confusion based on the width of the road that there was just a hodgepodge of people turning left, right, and just purgatory in between. So this helps identify and clearly mark those lanes.

And to further further that point, too, thanks for saying it that way. Um, we're this is one lane of traffic today going southbound with seven cars parked right here. What we're basically doing is we're taking those seven parking stalls and we're turning into a live lane of traffic so that there's double double the space to queue. So you can queue in two lanes instead of one lane closer to the intersection.

I know I keep on bringing up cyclists, but that would also take away a cyclist ability. I mean, essentially at Bulma, a cyclist would have to take the lane and stay in the lane, which is fine, but it's gonna slow people down to 10 to 12 miles an hour tops and frustrate people and Well, as opposed to now though, you can stay over on the side until the very end. Yeah. Until you get to lake. Just I mean, it's kind of a protected paint line. Yeah. It's like a larger parking area that is used likely probably for more than just

Yeah. I mean, this would just mean that cyclists would fully integrate with traffic and they can do that, but it just is something we should be aware of. I can't remember how this got on the list. Was there a point to it other than Trusty Saunders? The Tatty report originally recommended a dedicated right turn lane for queuing reasons. And so I think that's why it got brought up. I'm not excited about this. And I think you can, you know, it's all paint, right? Mhm.

And so we could keep it the same. And if someday we said, you know, you could incrementally lose a parking spot, right? That would add one unit to the queue going right. So I'm I don't know. I'm well do talking more about taking the ones on the east side. I mean they do worry about we do have businesses over there that don't have access they well and don't have parking for their business. They have no part. That's what I mean. They don't have they don't have ready access to parking um even for customers, right?

Um and I know that, you know, with Sendex extending the building, I know that people sneak in and park over at Sendex even though they're not supposed to, and then they run in to buy a gallon of milk, but that becomes a whole lot harder to do when the building is there. Yeah. Um, so I would be more hesitant personally to eliminate that opportunity for people to frequent those businesses easily. Personally, yeah. Does this also make the crosswalk down on the corner of Lake and Silver Spring? Would that make that crosswalk longer or would it just

No, keep that now. That's already Sure. It would be the existing condition. Yeah. So that I mean all it does really is extend that lane there. Extend that lane almost. Yeah. I'm not personally super excited about it. Anyone anyone want to I kind of like it actually. I think that's really going to um create a much better traffic flow at that intersection. uh especially and it's like it was mentioned right now the traffic's a little lower because of all the work up there but once that gets back to normal it can back up like three blocks you know right now and um that's true this I think that's going to help

people can get pretty even though there's only 71 people turning right people can that are turning right there can get pretty aggressive with trying to go around the people that they know are all turning left because it does back up I mean I've been trying to pull out of those parking spots before and think I've got a way to go and suddenly somebody's decided they're going to go around and go through the parking if there's, you know, because they can see there's some nobody in the parking up a little bit further. Not even to turn right. So, but I also don't think it's great to eliminate all the parking either. I don't But you will have parking now up on Bulmont. Bulmont. Yeah. So, and that's not just around the corner. True. Yeah. That is true. True.

But I also think the bike thing is a situation as well. Well, the bike thing and then the other thing that happens is it does speed up the traffic. You know, the traffic is moving a lot more quickly, which if you're in a car, you're happy about, but if you're a pedestrian by the intersection or the bike, boy, how close are they? And do we have uh I do want to note just because there's been a lot of comments about all the parking on Bulma. Right now, our numbers in the block surrounding Sundex, including the Sundex lot, is we're at a negative four. So, there is a net loss of parking compared to existing conditions. So, I just I not that that necessarily would impact this decision, but

it becomes we are going to lose four total. Yep. We started with negative I'm going to keep track as we go. We started with -3 and then I added in we lost one spot. Yep. And so, if you took out those then you'd be at -1. So again, not necess that's not the only consideration, but I just want everybody to be on the same page for that. To Kevin's point, this is all just paint, right? So this is something we could more or less leave the same and then at a future point adjust if we decided it was review the existing roadway and what can I fit in the existing roadway with? So yes, CJ, I believe what you've proposed up there is actually curb line changes, correct?

That the intersection of Bulmont. Along Lake. Along Lake is uh removing and replacing the curb in the same spot. So that would be Oh, in the same spot. Removing and replacing same spot. Okay. So, do we have to remove and replace it at this point or can we leave it right now? The markings you're referring to? Well, if we're talking about remove and replace right now, is there any reason? Oh, I guess there's no reason. The proposed is to remove and replace the curbing, the sidewalk, all that would be part of the development.

Yeah. So you're you're exactly right. Like what I with staff, what we've really been driving towards is highcost mistakes, right? So anytime we're moving curb or we're putting concrete down in places, we really want to be looking at those things. Anywhere where there's paint, we can change it next month. If they open and there's issues, we're seeing problems, we whatever. We can repaint and make adjustments. Given the fact that we're making all these other changes up on that intersection on Bulmont, I'd be more in favor of waiting, but I'd be in favor of Well, I don't I don't love this to begin with, but I'd be in favor of waiting and maybe re-evaluating after.

Uh any other comments from the committee? Otherwise, I'll open it up and see if we have comments from the audience. It's going twice. Okay. So, we don't quite have total consensus, but I'll go along with it. Okay. Okay. We have I wasn't trying to strongarm you into consensus. Just um Okay. Moving on to number three.

All right. Number three, Bowmont parking. Review the current number of parking spots on Bowmont between Lake Drive and Council Place. and what is the proposed number of angled parking spots? So, there's a couple factors into this and we'll go through as much detail as possible and maybe it's just best for me to state what I stated in the memo. And the parking counts which compare existing condition to pro proposed which is the di diagonal and parallel parking scenarios is included in exhibit C which we'll pull up. The existing conditions prior to the redevelopment currently allow for 20 parallel parking stalls. Based on the Sendix redevelopment plans, the the Bow Mount parallel parking would be reduced to 17 parallel parking stalls to accommodate the new entrance semi-truck movements and loading zones. The proposed diagonal parking as part of the uh public improvements would allow for 33 parking stalls. Therefore, the proposed diagonal parking would add 16 additional stalls in that uh at an approximate 50% increase of parking capacity on Bowmont. So, you'll see those exhibits also within um our memo. So, the it goes into the cost benefit analysis with that. So the engineer's estimate of construction cost for the diagonal parking is approximately 270,750 for the asphalt parking which amounts to a cost of about a little over $8,000 per diagonal parking stall. If choosing permeable pavers, which I feel was the overall direction desire of the last meeting, the parking cost is estimated. I made a error on this. Um, I didn't include the contingency, so it should read 405,750, which amounts to a cost of 12,295 it would come to for the diagonal parking. So, I I didn't have the 15%, so

I want to make sure it was apples to apples. I just want to clear that up in my memo. So, basically, if you're doing asphalt, $8,200. If you do permeable pavers, it'd be $12,295. expensive, but where I guess um I'm curious about permeable pavers and what the efficacy is forund $150,000 to put in permeable pavers. Like how many gallons of water are we

um saving going into the storm system? Um I I was mentioning this with Kelsey this afternoon and one of the things I had didn't know was we're adding inlets to the storm sewer. So like we're already we're improving the the gallons per minute or whatever you want to call it in terms of getting water off of Bowmont. And so permeable pavers, what does that how how many more gallons does that give us? 10 15 I mean the when you've got rain it's a slow seep through pavers so I'm not sure that that is effective use ofund 150 grand I think I mean that's a significant amount for for that area and another alternative is we can do an alternative when we go through design and if we get MMSD competitive funding we upgrade at the cost of MMSD but then our base decision ision maybe of the committee is asphalt. So it might be a nice upgrade. We can go through that process. The application I think is towards the end of the year for GIPP funding. So we have time to build out the full entire design with permeable pavers but have a backup plan that if for whatever reason competitive funding falls short, we have that plan for asphalt. Okay. So, at $150,000, might might that I mean, then I'm thinking way out of the box here, but I'm thinking about um the retention space that is below the softball d behind the high school that when that was put in, there's retention space, water retention space underneath that. I don't know what the cost would be, but if we are pulling back curb and we've got all this space, is there any world in which we could build in some retention capacity underneath there as

opposed to just the permeable pavers?

Keep in mind, Sendix as part of their uh submitt included storm water management on those sheets and uh it's going to be a dramatic improvement as far as what they're going to have from their internal property. So this would be only for the Bowmont Avenue side. So we could look into what that means, but it's again a costbenefit analysis. Once you start to have these, you know, you're digging deeper, you're adding reservoirs, all that stuff, it's probably going to be more expensive, I would assume, CJ, than permeable pavers where you do additional excavation, back fill with some gravel and have that slow release. for sure it would be more but I'm just again thinking costbenefit analysis and what's you know the amount of water we actually could retain there

it and MMSD does their competitive funding based on gallons captured so I think that's going to have to be part of our algorithm when we do our submitt is based on how we have our sheet flow within Bowmont most likely from council to Lake Drive how much are you able to collect within that square footage and that's going to determine how competitive our funding is and then from there the cost your cost per gallon and if you add more it's going to probably reduce the likelihood of us getting that that uh grant. So it's it's one of those deals of how much do we want to ask versus how many more people are going to be asking especially with the thousand-year flood competitive fun. Sure. Sure.

Yeah. I just didn't want to miss an opportunity question I have about asphalt and patent. So what if when you pave things if either you drilled some holes, you know, where so as water comes down eventually it can go in there quickly and get in the earth. I know that may not work with the expanding and that's why I have my one question but also like if where the parking is at some point like at the edge near the curb what if there was like even you know again this is what I don't know enough about asphalt a space between the curb and the asphalt that was dirt or rock or open or whatever where the water as it came could run down and go in that way and not even go into the storm sewer just go into the Earth. I mean, I don't know. I just know again having my basement flooded again for the, you know, first it was the hundredy year and now it's the thousand year. Like, I mean, we put too much asphalt as we all know. So, it is there, are there ways when you need to have asphalt? Are there things you can do to create the water to be able to go somewhere other than just sitting on the asphalt and eventually running into somebody's basement? Maybe Synic's basement or, you know, some other business around there. That's the idea of what the permeable pavers would be,

right? I know, but that's expensive. So, I'm wondering if something as simple as like not having the pavement connect all the way to the curb and leaving some space, does that make the pavement deteriorate quicker over time or that maybe that's a question for you. I don't know. The freezing thaw, so the design of a roadway in Wisconsin, the freezing thaw is the reason why it fails. Yeah. Yeah. So, drilling holes in it. Um, when you do a permeable pa system, it's engineered with different materials underneath to be able to allow the the water to find its way slowly and then eventually into a storm sewer. Yeah. So, it's not sitting in the stone. It sits in the stone. That's when you get the that's when you get your potholes,

right? Yeah. That's what I was afraid of. And that's if you remember the station 84, John Edelbeck um had put in porous asphalt. So kind of the same idea with the holes is it just has larger voids. So if you pour a gallon of water, you will not see that gallon of water. It'll go straight down. So permeable pavers, porous asphalt, same, you know, type of processes. You want a slowrelease filtration system in order to prevent it from even getting into your your storm sewer system. That's like a last ditch thing that would be entered that versus just penetrating the ground.

And below the uh surface, there's always more. So even in the port uh permeable pavement where it's just asphalt going into the ground, there's still something underneath it where it eventually hits a a drain or something to your storm sewer. It doesn't just sit that there. CJ, can you walk through the existing inlets versus what you're proposing? Uh yeah, I think that's helpful. I can do my best. So we looked at um Well, here we'll go now.

I don't have the utility one with me today. Um but I know um specifically this intersection there's a couple inlets there. We'd look to add um there's a storm sewer. It's not shown. It's but it it's a storm sewer that runs east and west down Bulmont here. Um we would look to put an inlet likely on one of these corners here.

Um because we are anticipating that this road will be crowned and then it's the new place for the water to go is going to be that new curb line which is closer to the sidewalk now. Um, so we would have to put um something somewhere on kind of this area over here. Um, with the new storm, if you go a little bit to the right, I think I could probably click from here. I just don't know how to. Um, Sendex team, there's a manhole right here.

Sendex team is doing their storm water uh connections straight into this manhole. Um, still, you know, need to be reviewed, but they've they're doing their engineering on it for us to review as on the village side. Um, they're connecting in there. We would likely probably put an inlet or two somewhere in here so that we can collect midblock version of it. Um and then the same thing over here on this on this corner. So that's the whole south gap. Left half the same thing. You're counting the road. You're going to have to do something on just the inverse. You're going to have to add a couple in up here. Um if you did permeable pavers, we would put permeable pavers in the parking areas

and we would find our way with a drain system so that it might not look like an inlet. might be a little smaller for cleaning for Matt and his crews to clean, but it would be a little bit different design, but there would still be some infrastructure in the parking areas regardless for permeable. Then the intersection to the east, right? Um with these curb bumps here, um any inlet that you see today on these existing curbs back in here will have to be relocated into the new curb line. Um Matt and I have been in discussions looking to strategically place them around the ADA ramps so that they're not in the the way and keeping water off the ADA as well as um doubling them up in a in a strategic way to keep the flooding of that intersection so that it gets into the storm circulator. So I don't have that shown here, but you can imagine

that concept. And how many inlets exist currently? It's a great question. I I can probably pull up the utility GIS, but I think the answer It's gonna be more in significant sounds. We don't have the numbers. It's gonna be more. The intent is there will be more inland. I think there's not many if any. That sounds to Kevin's question. Um ballpark um volume of water that permeable pavers would collect versus asph.

The general idea of a permeable pa system is the first half inch of rainfall. So the first half inch of water that it hits, it collects. Um, now that's not a/ inch in 5 minutes. It's a/ inch over a normal rainfall event, not your thousand-year storm you just saw. So, the idea is that that permeable paper system, the stone underneath it will collect and hold all in the volume of the stone to your point of like, you know, can we just that's what it's doing underneath the ground. So, it's that thick to hold the water. So, in this last maybe five minutes worth of it, it would be all of seconds maybe with how intense it was. But yeah, I mean the idea is it's the first half inch and then it would take into the inlets and as you strategically place those highs and lows in the road.

Is this generally pitched? Um the road do we know? Is it generally pitched east to west, west to east? Um this road this road does not have any storm sewer in the middle of the block. So it's pitched to the intersections. Yeah. Um so it's pitched away to the intersections. So, I don't know if it's all east or all west, but it's going to the intersections. Okay. And and how does that connect with west of council? Below mount west of council. How do these two segments work together?

These two segments actually work independently of each other, separately of each other because um this this section right here, I think the storm sewer is all going east. Lake Michigan, right? All going east. It's the downstream version of it. So it's it's it's it's in line, sure, but it's it's separate from completely separate. Yeah. Like the water the water drop that hits council is going to this here, but the water drop that hits 50 ft west of council, there's its own inlets over that way. And inlets over there, you go a little west. Yeah, there's a couple inlets just to the west of our purview of this improvement left, but I think you can see it on there curve over there there. I think there's just at the intersection. just at the

intersection. Intersection. I'm pretty sure just the south. Okay. So, I think you can see them. Yeah, you can see right there. Oh, yep. Okay. Maybe right there, but there's just on the west side. So, we would improve the east side because that's where we're touching. Okay. Thank you. That's where it's kind of separate. I'm I'm guessing there's something counterintuitive about the concept that we're in this plan. Um we are removing parkway like 12 feet or so 14 ft 14 ft on one side I think 16 on another somewhere in there which is grass and absorbs right but at the same time we're increasing the holding capacity of the road

if you were to do a permeable paper system well let's not even don't even worry about that just the concept that I remember back in 2010 lines design your system to, you know, hopefully work really well with a 10 and 20 and 100year um flood policy by removing water from everywhere. But you realize that you can hold water in streets. And so to a certain extent, we're we're probably getting better at holding water in the street than we were with the parkway. Am I is that is that accurate, you think? I mean, there's a there, you know, from from lake to console.

I was just going to say we're getting all new curbs there, though, right? Yeah. 6 in. Correct. It's just we're we're adding we're adding more swimming pool with drains. That only works if we've got good strong curbs. I mean, the the minute your curbs start to degrade, you lose holding capacity. And that's why I'm asking we're getting all new curb there. Yeah, the intent the intent is you're getting all new curb and the as part of our initial design that that new curb is where the water's going to. So that's where that's where it's going to live. All the pink would be the new curb curb. Yeah. And I'm guessing is it is it mil right? I mean is it um asphalt right now? Yeah.

And are we putting in asphalt again or are we putting in concrete? Will will the roadway go be decreased in the future? uh like as you mill and overlay things you increase the depth to the curb or you reduce the depth rather over time and so now it'll be 6 in curbs. I wonder what it is right today infrastructure in there. Are we not getting a whole new once you start to disturb everything in that area including a new water man. So I was think about that trench. It'll be we we're deciding between mill and overlay, but also the semitr traffic and the turn movements that's going to really do damage over a total replacement. It's it's a rec it's essentially reconstruction. It's a reconstruction. So

So the point is we were even thinking concrete would be longstanding as far as recommended replacement in that section of Bowmont from lake to council. Right. Six inch curbs for a longer time. Correct. As I look at it, I think I don't I don't I think it's six inches right now. So, it's not like we're gaining, you know, an inch or two. The the roadway today is not do not believe overlaid over the curb like you have in other areas. It's your normal curb. Yep. Off memory. So, I think that so so like guess the question here is question is are we increasing the holding capacity of that block?

Well, the question is are okay. The question is, is it worth I start with the perviewable play. Well, I guess the first question is diagonal parking versus parallel parking. True. There's lots of questions there. So, that would be the first question. Parallel parking, diagonal parking. Thoughts? Diagonal parking. Diagonal diagonal parking. Yeah, easy call. All right. Second question. with the diagonal parking. Um, per pvious, is it worth the bang for the buck for the No, I don't think so. Based upon what he said about the I mean, because I am now hyper concerned about the amount of concrete we put down as compared to water and

because I think we're going to we're going to get thousand-year floods in the next five years again. But I I think what you've said about all of that makes sense. And I think we're I don't think the permeable is going to make it any better than what we just said we did. So I don't think that's slightly better, but not Well, yes. But I don't think it's enough for 15. It's a green infrastructure thing. That's that you know, MMSD pays for it. We're fine. Exactly. To to Matt's point, you know, we do it as an alternative. And if we can get Mmsd for it. Well, I'd rather MMSD fix my neighborhood. unfortunately. Okay. Um, is there another question that we need to answer on this? I just have another point of Thank you.

Um, so there's a member of Oh, I know. I'm definitely going to

Oh, yeah. I just wanted to I guess tee it up. So, we've been working staff CJ Matt and I met with Christ Church on site. Um, talked about kind of some of their comments about the overall um site design. We were able through conversation. um there's not as much of a need for the ADA stalls on the north side because they actually utilize lake um for drop offs and that provides better ADA accessibility into their church versus through the parallel parking. So, we were able to save the tree that was originally proposed to be removed on the northeast side. I don't have a laser pointer, but you get the idea. There you go. So, we were able to save that tree and maintain the same number of parking stalls um by making that modification. The other request to the church, which um I'm sure he'll speak to shortly, is to try to save the tree on the northwest side. In doing so, that would lose two spots. Um so, we've exchanged emails, but just knowing that parking is very tight around the site. Um staff didn't want to make that decision.

Personally, I'm in favor of grass and trees. Me, too. And the and the church once. So, I'll I'll actually Do you want to speak? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. You come on up. Sorry. I don't have a laptop to bring to bring it up as well. So, I I printed some um and we're speaking about and of course I've got the drink and I've also included the electrical book is red. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

And I I I do want to say that um well, I'm I'm here on behalf of Christ Church uh 56565 North Lake Drive. Um and we have enjoyed a long and and successful relationship with Sendix and we support SUIX redevelopment plan. Uh we're in favor of the redevelopment plan. Um and we're in favor of the planned public um improvements on Bulmont uh that the village uh has shown and and planned. uh on on C CJ site plan. You probably had discussions as as mentioned um about uh the proposed um parking changes. We support the angle parking.

Uh we think the angle parking will provide additional parking not only for Senics but but for the church as well and we're in favor of that. Um we appreciate the time spent by Miss Bear Roy and Mr. in uh listening to our input and and and we appreciate the responsiveness to to to that. um when when reviewing um the plan as as Pat Mc mentioned you there's currently a tree that'll be on the right side of the parking on the north side of there's the tree to the left that um is sort of across from the drive of the tree then exit from Senics as it'll be redeveloped there's also an electrical box that's on the other side of the mine I just did um

that's a large electrical Should [Music] be another. Sorry. We're trying to find the Oh, here. Sure. Take this one. Okay. I I don't know that thing. Hit this uh middle there. There you go. Electrical box that's marked in red for you. That's the trees that's sitting in where it is. Now, that one thing. So, not the X that you There's an X already there. Yeah. No, not the X. The tree is sort of to the right of it. Yep. What is the What is the X? It's a street light. That's a street light. Thank you.

It's a little black and simple, but Yeah.

So, the the tree that we're talking about, it's a a mature specimen tree. Um it it's it's um it's easily seen when you drive on Bulmont that the church val values those trees. It it cares for them as part of its landscaping and its uh community stewardship. Um after discussion with Miss Maroy and Mr. accounts. We understand that saving that tree would cost uh a one angle spot, maybe even maybe two um which are directly across from the uh entrance and and exit from the redeveloped Sendex. But um we think that that saving that tree really is worth it given the benefits that that would result from it. Um because not only does that tree um as a mature healthy tree in the community now, but frankly those two spots that we're talking about, they're directly across from the entrance and exit uh drive from Sendix. And frankly, we think that losing that space or even both of them would actually benefit community safety because you no longer have the the cars backing into the traffic coming in and going out of the drive. Um, also that tree is important to the church because it it screens and protects the electrical box which is just across the sidewalk from it. Um, there is a a short knee wall that is sort of depicted, but that knee wall is not going to stop an SUV. Um, and so we like that tree there because it protects that electrical box. Um, and and that's important to the church. Um and so you know the it's it's while the green space is important um it also serves a functional purpose and and so it it's important to us if we can preserve it. Finally preserving that tree on the left side it frames that angle park because

you're going to have a tree on the right side. Now you preserve the tree on the left side and it really frames that angle park quite nicely. Um, the village of Whitefish Bay is a a bird city of Wisconsin member that that speaks to the fact that the village is that preserving the green space and the village's conservation efforts are are important and um we would like the village to consider making this one additional change. We recognize it'll mean the loss of a parking space or or maybe two, but that it preserves a healthy mature tree. It protects our electrical box and it re it enhances public safety by not having those cars backing into the traffic coming in and going out of u centics.

Yeah, I'm much more fan. Thank you. You're right. Um I'll just go down the line. I think this is the one good to me. It sounds good to me. My only question would be as we start to pave even as losing the two spots. You know, one of the things that I've seen happen in my neighborhood is as you start digging and stuff, you end up damaging the trees and the trees die anyway. So, I guess I would that would be my for both of them on either end if there's not enough space. And I you know, I know you don't know that right now because nobody's done any digging. We don't know where the roots are and things like that. But

I don't know that answer, but I do know that um any construction activities next to the root system, it's always the chance that although we may say we're going to save that tree that you may I mean maybe talking to Matt to replace it in the future with the new one if it doesn't I'm in favor of I'm still in favor. Absolutely. But I think we need to be realistic that that y might be a reality. Yeah. I mean I was uh you know Yes. I'm glad I'm glad the church came to speak because I was concerned about uh your church losing two parking stalls directly in front of um your congregation. And if you want to keep the tree, I'm all for that. Kevin, that

Okay. Well, I believe we're unanimous on that.

Okay. Uh that being said, um do we have any other members of the public who would like to speak on this segment? Aaron Z again 933 Silvin and I'm just uh by my count and friend's count are we losing 15 mature trees in that area is that number and we're gaining 15 spots. So to me it seems like one for one trade old mature tree canopy cover um you know the village character piece even home values along that spot with like you know putting in younger arborvite or whatever there's going to be se seven of those and seven of other shade trees that they're putting in that are going to be much more immature. Um, for me, you know, if I was making the choice myself, I wouldn't still would not choose that.

So, not just as a long-term play for the village and, you know, thinking global driven situation. So, I hope we don't just purely think of parking as the metric for everything even though I know that translates obviously to dollars, but there are other metrics as well in play. So, Thank you. For the record, it's not It's never easy for me to cut down a tree. No, me either. For

the record, it's nine trees and it looks like two of them are, let's call it, yeah, two of them are immature. They're within 6 in just to say. So, seven relatively mature trees. You looking on the east side or the west side? Both. or north or south side. O, did were you ready to did you have a comment?

Hi, my name is Sher Johnston. I live at 450 East Bowmont. Um, I have a question. Those of us who live at 450, we're wondering if you are considering going one block west with your storm sewer and whatever because we lost 17 cars in the flood and in 2018 we lost cars and in 2010 it was flooded and we don't have any storms that were drains on our side of the street at all. So,

yeah, go ahead. So as I think it's important to know where our footprint is for the proposed Sendix redevelopment with the four corners and between Lake Bowmont Council and Silver Spring and that was part of the the TID and making sure that our focused efforts is what public improvements are necessary based on the development and that's the lens that we went through this exercise. And of course since then a thousand-year storm happened and we have to be extremely conscientious being village staff our engineers with Clarks to also look at the flooding. So we are not ignoring uh any of our residents as far as the impact the financial impact your garage as far as the storm damage. That's something in the packet that we've included some information uh that's going to be talked about at our next uh village board meeting as far as our capital improvement project outlook to further engage with residents, look at the data, and look at next steps as far as mitigation to flooding, sanitary sewer backups, and all that fun stuff. But we have to have that fine line of separation of TID improvements based on redevelopment versus having scope creep into other areas that are significant and very important to our residents. But if we we have to draw that line based on the redevelopment this I reached out to the residents of Lacassa. We are trying to facilitate an on-site meeting with myself the buildings director. So, uh, Irv, we're going to be, uh, going back and forth trying to get a meeting date in the next week or so to start to listen, engage more with the residents based on the impact of Lacassa slightly to the west. And I think that's important for us as village staff to continue these types of dialogues. But as far as the redevelopment, it is not our goal to go further on Bulmont to the

west of council because we have to be very specific legally and functionally from what is in our TID redevelopment if that makes sense. It's only one block. I hear you. But but do know Yeah. that we're not done looking at the impact of the flood and we're not done looking for ways to mitigate going forward in the future. More and more expensive every time this happens for sure. Understood. Any other public comments? Any other public comment on

Okay. Okay. So, I think otherwise we have consensus on these number four. Yes.

All right. Number four. Review the of the proposed median on Silver Spring Drive and Hollywood Avenue. Specifically, if it can be split similar to the medians on Lake/Day and Lake and Bell and also evaluate if the median can be widened to match Berkeley and Silver Spring or Lenon. So, there's a couple subcategories with this one. So, in regards to the median split, uh I reached out to Tatty just like the last couple just to engage with them uh with our traffic engineers and they gave a response with that within the memo and I don't know all the

capital N O. Yeah, got it. So yes, it was definitely not recommend point allowing a westbound to southbound left turn movement at Hollywood or northbound to westbound left turns as the maximum Q traffic back up on Silver Spring eastbound from Lake Drive signals is 340 ft with average cues of 185 during peak hours. And since Hollywood is 170 feet west of Lake Drive, Hollywood would be blocked thereby not allowing for westbound to southbound left turn movement causing backups westbound. Of course, that's happening today. I don't I don't think it causes any backups. Yeah, I mean it's happening today. So yeah, I mean there there's

you can turn left on you can turn left now. Keep in mind I I think with the median there and further restricting that and the new signal at council there's a couple different things that will be changing and as well as increasing traffic for the Sendix property. So I think all those are variables that were put into account of what's happening now versus what it will look like. You know what there'll be less traffic because you don't have that exit and entrance on Hollywood. You are correct about that. There would be less traffic probably. It's just how much we would consider.

I don't see why you want to not allow a left turn. My opinion, it doesn't it doesn't back up traffic. Well, I'm the one who asked for the split, so I'm with you. What's that? I said I'm the one who thought of the split. Oh, yeah. The split is to have two refuge be able to have two refugees so that you could continue to make that turn either and and do you recall there there was an individual who came to the microphone and he gave a good reason for for allowing people to take lefts and I it may have had to do with pushing traffic to diversity. Yeah. Yes. I can't remember the exact point other than it's going to push traffic to diversity.

Yeah. But it was a yeah it's a better point than that. In in the memo they do answer that as far as what that impact to diversity would be and it would add about 20 to 30 additional vehicles during those peak hours uh which amounts to an additional vehicle of uh every two to three minutes which is considered negligible based on the study unless you live on diversity. Right. Well or and let's face it living in Hollywood now not being able to take lefts is challenging.

And I I think one other point just to consider for the committee is what does that left turn movement mean for pedestrian safety when you're navigating turn movements versus just your through movements? Because the more that you add those movements with the island there, it's just one more navigation on on a busy Silver Spring that's pretty close in proximity to two different traffic signals as well. Although I mean to play devil's advocate, it's also essentially a midblock crossing across the street. I mean they're not you're not going to a corner. You're going straight mid block. So should we be encouraging that crossing anyway?

The reality is that's going to happen. You have one of your big busiest restaurants and your busiest store on the entire corridor. Like there that that crossing is going to happen. another consideration for staff um when we were discussing this because actually originally it was proposed as a split or maybe just one median I can't remember but it didn't block Hollywood and one discussion point internally was the cohesion of the Silver Spring district um wanting it to to look and feel like a cohesive corridor yep matching the spot um by Fox Bay by diversity so that that's other something else I want to bring up because that is important Right. This is an opportunity to build a business district um that you you know has a presence about it.

I love this. I mean that's my least favorite intersection in the whole village is when you're at Stone Creek and you're either trying to go to Sendex or just crossing anywhere over there is just a nightmare. And so I like it as is. No left turn lanes. Block it off. Make it look like the other section. I think it at least for me I like what is proposed. Well, I like the islands, you know, and that's a great idea because it is busy now. It's more busy than ever, but I still think a split one would be nicer where you can make that left turn.

The difference aesthetically just to visualize it is that a split will be concrete that whereas the median as designed has landscaping elements. Um, so I would say this is more decorative, more experiential for someone visiting the corridor, whereas the split will truly just be markings and pavement. Think of in front of the Fox Bay plantings and stuff. Okay. Yeah. No, I if it's aesthetically nicer, then I kind of side with that. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. I was just gonna say, did you give numbers about how many people turn left off of Hollywood? 20 to 30 per hour. 20 to 30 turn left.

Off of Hollywood really people. There was a lot of data collected and it was part of the presentation by Tatty with our pedestrian bike bicycle safety study that they actually set cameras up for all those different traffic movements. So these numbers are are pretty real and that was done away from turning left there. I turn left there all the time and this will stop me from doing it. It's good. I hope so. How about you just absolutely can you just promise not to do it then everybody else can then there would be 29 cars. Uh Kevin,

I'm um I think the aesthetic part is nice. Um, yeah, I I'm I'm good with a not split um median. Uh, one of the things we did ask about was the increase in the medium from 6 to 8 ft. Um, can we talk about that? Yep. Uh, it was done. Super.

We did we did widen it from 6 to 8 feet. Um the length of it uh we looked at and the totality of the length across the intersection um keeping it where we're at um will not impact any more parking cars, parked cars. So if you start extending it, that starts happening. So we kept the length, but we did widen it 60. No, I was one of the people who uh proposed widening it to begin with. But what is the other median uh over by uh the bay in the Argo? Is that right? I knew that 3 weeks ago when we were talking about this, we mirrored it just under eight. Matt and I have measured it many times on Google Maps. Okay. It's very close to So, this would be similar. Okay. Question. And for the width,

not that the length is a little longer to the west. Um there's less parking in some of the situations over there, but Okay, perfect. And can we make sure we have electricity to that median? Is there anyone in the public who wants to speak to this? So, we do not have consensus, but we I'm outvoted. So, okay. Uh, moving on to number six. The five. Oh, I thought that. Yeah, you're right. Five. Sorry.

All right. Identify if the new proposed parking spots on eastbound Silver Spring adjacent to Winkys will not impact right turn movements onto Marorrow Drive. So I think there's an exhibit. I think it's just the overall actually I think I was right will not impact return. Will that not? Yeah. Uh so what did we decide? CJ, you want to give a quick finding the overview will not impact right turn movements.

So the discussion of these uh these three parking spots right here. Um what we did is we added a line here and added a little line there. How it actually feels in the end. We'll figure it out. But the general idea is that this is where the edge line would be for your parked stalls. Um this bumpout is not there today. So we would put that in shifting this by I think four feet. Five feet right here. Um so when you shift that five feet you create this kind of no man's land which then turns into

um so the the real ask is what happens as you navigate into this intersection. Well this existing curb line these double yellows you still have carrying through this whole space here 11 to 12 feet and this widens back to the existing condition today. So the existing condition is still being met when you get to that crosswalk as you approach the intersection. It's just navigating this median, these parked cars, this double yellows here, which you have an 11 foot lane all the way through here until you get to here. You're back to the existing. So it does not affect any of your right turning movements, your through movements, or your straight movings as you would drive it today. You should be able to have one car waiting to turn left and somebody should be able to sneak around and turn right. depending if it's semi-truck traffic or compact car

small it's how you would drive it today I I hate to go back 45 seconds but we we had a long conversation about medians and bumpouts and bicycle traffic and we this is the exact same geometry the same talking about um to the west too so it's the it's the whole silver spring corridor you're doing this bumps and medians as you go through So you are going to have these pinch points uh that improve the pedestrian traffic but limit the lane width for something other than a car.

I would would say Lake Drive, at least to me, Lake Drive is different because that is such a corridor for cycling. Silver Spring, you'll occasionally get people going up and down Silver Spring, but Kevin, I think it was your son who mentioned that typically they don't take busy roads, they'll take a side road. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Feel like anytime I see bikes on Silver Spring, it's little kids on the sidewalk with their parents. I mean, it's not bike or bikers. Okay. Does does making the median six feet I'm sorry, 8t instead of six make it more difficult for if there I mean

so what what what I did not say just to allude to this these bumps were six feet here and here and here last time. We are only doing five feet now. So, we stole a foot out of these curb lines on the north and south side to bump at eight feet. So, that's So, we played the curb line game to get more foot footage in the We need 11 ft for the through. Yeah. So, that is the same. Gotcha. Sorry to cut you off. I just No, no, no. Yeah, we're getting to that point of the meeting where we're all kind of fuzzy. Yeah. At least I am. Okay. Number six. Silver Spring and Diversity proposed bumpout. Should there be a proposed design change to prevent illegal parking in front of Mathnasium?

Just to go back because I misspoke. Um the median over by Fox Bay, I looked at my notes and measured it. It's actually 9 ft. So it' be one foot smaller. Okay. But you you penciled everything you could. That was the width you could get. Make the curbs thinner.

All right. With number six. Yeah, we did look at that and we did modifications based on the Silver Spring Council diversity intersection because we we felt that that was a very good point. We've met with the owners of Mathnasium last year even based on their concerns with drop off pickup. Unfortunately, parents making the bad choice for their own children with drop off and pickup which creates hazardous conditions for everyone involved with that area. So, the improvements are made that CJ will go more in depth with is enhanced bumpouts on that south side of the intersection of Silver Spring and Diversity to limit the illegal parking opportunities for vehicles to drop their kids off at Mathnasium on that southwest corner. And by doing so, it it gives an opportunity for creativity of additional bicycle parking, which

Yeah. So we actually were kind of internally working on this a while ago even before Sendix about different ways that we can allow for bicycle parking either in street with preventing that or with this public improvement still having protect protected with the curb bumpout and still doing something that looks pretty darn cool for allowing for bicycle parking where kids don't have to strap it to a tree, a bench or anything else that they can find. Um so this is a little bit more of an attractive concept. Where you going? I was gonna say, can you point out what what is the illegal where's the illegal spot? It's Oh, go ahead, CJ. You got it

there. That's a good zoom out. So, um, this existing curb line goes like this today. Goes like this today. Got it. Okay. Um, the first parked car south is right here. The existing crosswalk you can see on the kind of little bit lighter is right here. So, there's a no man zone right here where people kind of park in right just by the south crosswalk to the back of the this car. It's a yellow painted curb. They park right there. That's the first spot. Second spot, is you can see pretty clearly where the existing pavement markings are for the park stalls here. Then the existing crosswalk is way out here. So, there's a good distance right here that cars just kind of make their space

and drop off and pick up.

So, this space right here and this space right here. Um, I've seen photos passed from Matt to me and from from people saying that they park in these two spaces. With this improvement, um, we're looking at taking this curb line, bringing it up around, filling this void, and bringing it back down. That could be bike parking, that could be whatever you want to do in this area. Um, multiple different options, but bike parking is is a good is a good solution here. also where these crosswalks are on all four corners. Um looking to take them out of the the radius and putting them in the flat spot so that you're crossing again not on the radius, not on the curve, but at more of the narrowest point the crossing just what we were talking about over on Lake Drive, trying to shorten the crossings. This bump will give you five more feet closer. Plus, it'll also take you out of the the angle and shortening that distance across. You can see that these crosswalks are actually moving a little bit further every single direction. um which eats up in this way positively with that no man zone where people are not supposed to be parking.

So will there be room for a car turning left for a car to go through? So like there'll be a car here that's going into Sendex and a car here that wants to continue along Silver Spring. Will there be passing distance in that groove? So you're 21 ft. You have 14 and nine give or take. Your 21 23 feet 22 23 feet that you have today, you are at 14. Yep. I'm just saying there's gonna be a lot of left turns there. Like a whole lot. And we're going to I mean, if there's a stop light there, right, then people are going to be sitting right.

I believe it's what what the comment was is with the left turn arrow onto council. Is that a Is that going to help with that traffic movement on Silver Spring going northbound onto council? So, uh, Taddyy reviewed this intersection and had this intersection reviewed, um, as uh, one lane of traffic doing three different movements through there. Um, that's how they reviewed this intersection and they found no issue with that. They did find that you need to have a designated right turn lane and designated right turn lane um, for the improvement of Sendex going north. Um but they they with this signal and this movement having one lane doing three movements was Tatty's okay

that traffic. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I thought where they wanted a left turn arrow just like it's on Santa Monica and Silver Spring. That Yeah. Um, that's really the only way because if if there's left turners without a left arrow, you're that's going to back up because there's going to be a significant left turning population like me. I'll be turning left there.

Um, okay. So I I I guess the reason I pointed that out was simply the concept that while we are fixing one problem here with illegal parkers and narrowing the distance, we're kind of creating another problem where people turning left are potentially blocking people going straight through. So let me ask Oh, go ahead. I was just going to say that was never a two-lane road anyways, was it? You're not really supposed to cut around people. People weren't taking lefts like this.

No, but that's what they did up here at Hollywood. So, you know, at Hollywood up here where you would turn into Synics before or is not exactly at H. People could sort of go around them because they could almost get into turn a little bit into Hollywood and get in there. So, you're probably going to have people turning left down here. I wonder if instead of doing the bump out, which I'm not necessarily opposed to, but is that a parking spot in front of it that we would lose like where you got the word curb, is that a parking spot? Right now, it's not a parking spot, but people are treating it. Treating it like one. Well, I wonder if we made that next parking spot at certain times of day, which I'm going to guess are after school and in the evening, if that wasn't like

It already is, I think, a drop off spot. It is. It says drop off. Oh, so other people are just Oh, okay. Well, that you know, if mathnesium was here, they'd probably say we have customers that need to, you know, that but fit 10 pounds of whatever in a five point sack. There's another issue. No, please. I mean, we don't have a mic, but people that are stopping to pick up are going to go somewhere. Where are they going to go? They're going to go to university, right? Yeah. And then they're going to turn around in one of the I live right there. Yeah.

I I've seen you're going to solve one problem, not another. By the way, I think the BS are complete because they I think that's really the focus is the pedestrian travel not necessarily.

So, are you have you heard of something in particular? Yeah. Okay. Because I'm wondering if as people get used to this, if instead of if there's no turn left there, maybe they'll turn at Santa Monica where there is a left turn and sorry for the people that live on Bumont, but go up and go down Bowmont and maybe park, you know, in one of these angle parkings or come into Synex from this direction, you know. So you'll there won't be so much left turn here. They'll left turn up here and come to Synex from the other way and the people coming from here will have a turn lane and turn you know you just sort of redirect over habits will just kind of I wonder I don't know I don't know if I'm misunderstanding so that's

oh that's right as you're going east on silver at this intersection it's going to be there is going to be a left yes be able to turn left but but what happens when the right turns and people still want to turn left and then people or people want to go straight and they're stuck behind a a left turner. Right. That's what I'm trying to say. Are there two lanes? Is that what you're saying? [Music] But it's only one lane. It's only one lane. So if

if someone waiting to turn left, you're stuck through three or four lanes. They'll take a right and then they'll turn around in your yard, go north. Yeah, you But Ted, you aren't misremembering, CJ. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a proposal from Tatty to have a dedicated left turn and a straight through, but the issue is that then we lose the parking in front of those businesses and we've been working very hard to not disturb other businesses. Yeah, so then we had Tatty reanalyze it.

But I just you you aren't misremembering that was one of the scenarios. I mean, if people want to go places with no obstruction whatsoever, then they should just get on the freeway. Like, you should No one is going down Silver Spring and not expecting to have to stop or to watch out for pedestrians. Like, that is and that's why I think they'll figure out as time goes, they'll realize the flow of the traffic and they'll know at certain times a day like I don't want to I mean, like I try to avoid Cumberland School at certain times of the day because I don't want to, you know, and I think it'll be the same way. Bill to say, "Oh, it's whatever time everybody's getting off work. I think I'll turn here at Santa Monica and go down Bowmont instead of maybe getting stuck or whatever." I mean,

well, I think a lot of our through traffic is going to end up going one block south. What is that? Like, it's uh what street is that? It's a Birch. Birch. Birch, which is already pretty busy. Yeah. But I agree. I like the idea of creating this as a nice business district. I mean, that is what we want downtown Whitefish Bay to be. So, if you're going to drive through it, you're going to be facing waiting to do things because it's a business district. It's not a freeway. What was that one gentleman quoted at the last meeting that any place worth living will or any place worth a dam will have uh traffic and parking problems. Just y

this is just super random, but um occasionally there are bus detours and they go down birch. Yep. Where do they turn? Anybody know? Do they they turn on? They turn at San Where do they come out? Where do they where do they do they get to they get to Mara? Right. Yeah. Then they go down Marorrow. Yeah. I just They don't come up Hollywood by any chance, do they? Because they wouldn't be able to make that turn. Oh, okay. All right. Never mind. said Birch and I there's there is it is not infrequent where you see buses going down Birch because of something on Silver Spring.

Uh okay. So do we have any help from the public? The question how far north is the Senate's entrance from this intersection turn left? Would there be a backup? It was all the way to the alley. Oh, I see what you're saying. You're saying it. Will there be a backup? If you're going westbound, might that Well, in terms of if you're in this plane to turn left and you turn left, is there going to be a backup with cars entering L? I think there's like seven car lengths, eight car links. It goes all the way to here.

Yeah, but your your stop sign's over here. Everything else is turning. So, the the traffic movement is going to be quick. I I think it's it'll be fine. Um, yeah. But before we go on though, I'll let me just put put in a plug that the picture of the bicycle parking station example that I think you're thinking of putting. Yeah, that guy. You're putting that on diversity or you were you putting that on uh the southwest corner of diversity with the real estate that we're trying to create there on that. Yep. Okay. I like that. It's gorgeous. But it's this picture is in the street and you're not putting it in the street. You're putting it on the curb.

This would be in the curb because we're allowing for that additional safety measure. And I mean this is specifically designed for street. I mean, it's gorgeous and it's probably not what we would end up with because I don't think we have the real estate in that corner. You have you have five feet of real estate plus a little bit of that uh brick paper space that's behind the curb. So, you do have some real estate there. This is don't quote me on exact numbers, but this was close to 20 ft long. So, this is this is close to, you know, 12 13 feet give or take. It's it was it was a number worth some space. Great example, though. Anyone else? Yes. You didn't ask for anything about the three public.

Oh, come on up then. I I apologize. Which Brookers the three spots? Yep. Uh Jason Davis 5159 Elcart. The three spots there. What about possibly moving the bus stop the Winky side to that side? It would move the bus stop closer to the send next door, making easier people traveling back and forth there. It would make making the right turn into Winkies, not having to go around bus. Hold on. Let can you move the map firstly? So, we know what we're talking about. So, you're talking about these three right where the number three is. Make that the MCTS bus stop and then along the side of Winkies on Marlboro. They can there will be no bus to maneuver around to get into the winkkey's lot

and people going lots of the traffic is going from the sendex to that stop it would be that much closer. What would that do to the traffic? I mean every time it pulls in and out of the bus stop. I'm missing something. Where's the bus stop now? The bus stop is around Marl, right? And so you want to move it to where? Right where the number three is in those three spots. the proposed parking on Silver Springs and so lose those three spots and make them into into a bus stop at the bus stop. So what's the benefit of that?

Easier shorter travel time to and from the store and easier access for vehicles into the Winky's lot turning off Marlboro where the bus pulls right up to the driveway. You're either stuck behind waiting or people making the illegal turn in front of it which they're not supposed to. Although they can go down to the second entrance. They can, but they don't. I walk that way every day. No one ever drives to the second one. They turn to the first one when they can. Yeah. Thank just an idea. I want to suggest one coming from the south. I always use the second one. I don't That's interesting. What would that do?

I don't know as far as the distance between the Hollywood intersection and where the bumpouts are. Is that enough turn movement for a bus to fit in and back out? I think we'd have to consider MCTS and get their professional opinion if those three parking spots are enough to especially with that median now on Hollywood. That's a lot of navigating for an MCTS bus. And I would hate to suggest something without their professional perspective on that. Speaking of buses, not to add another thing to our um discussion this evening, but I know there was talk about not having the bus stop on the corner of diversity and um council.

Yeah, council and Silver Spring. Not having that be an afterthought and kind of Well, that's number six. You guys are great at segueing. We are. We're really good at Hey, am I Thank you for number six. Got to flip your page, I think. Uh review. Yeah. There you go. How about you? No, I'm sorry. Number seven. We're around to seven. Number seven. Sorry. New existing bus stop on West Silver Spring to the east of council.

All right. So, we uh CJ, thank you for reaching out to MCTS and he had a really good dialogue with a lot of their members to evaluate options for enhancing that bus stop on Council Place in Silver Spring. Um, fascinating enough they do a really good job with their data collection because they need the transactions, the monetary stuff really point to who uses the ridership not only with totals but uh who's using it for arrivals or who's departing per se. And basically long story short is an average of two people per day are waiting for a bus on that intersection. So, it's more so about departing and using the Silver Spring District from either employees, workers, visitors, you name it. But no one except for two people on average are waiting. So we do believe that there's still an importance to create like something there and we had that dialogue but MCTS is putting a lot of their financial backing to the numbers game and this area would be one that they would not financially support that this would be part of our development if we tr chose to do something as far as a shelter and we would have to really work with Sundix because it's limited space there but based on the data and what it's telling us it's not a lot of wait time by a lot of people. So, we proposed a bench in order to add that. I think there's a lot of just normal traffic flow from pedestrians in that area. Uh it's just a high peak area. So, someone wants to sit a coffee on that corner, a great place to use or for someone that's actually waiting for the bus. But the data didn't prove out as far as putting a shelter because not a lot of people would be using it at the end of the day. We

also make sure it's it has some lighting. I know there are street lights around there. It's a busy corner, but you just don't want people to have to sit on a dark bench.

Any other works for me? Okay. Anyone from the public want to comment on the bus stop? All right. Moving on to Oh, wow. Kill. Great. So, wow. Yeah. All right. We got them. Do we need recommendations? I think we're good. You're making copious notes. I've been keeping a lot of notes. You don't make us go back through. No, I didn't know if we needed or whatever for any of that. Um I um I I've been keeping good notes, but I think a motion just to forward this to the village board as discussed. You like to make that motion? I'll make that motion. Do you need me to say it again or can I just say Okay. I would like to second that. Second it. Sure.

Yeah, I'll second it. All in favor? Hi. Hi. Hi. Okay. Are we good? We're good. I just want to thank CJ and Matt who have been working around the clock and the Sendix team as well who have continued to be incredibly collaborative. So, thank you to everyone and the members of the public who came out and the public and Maxine too and Maxine always Maxine. And speaking of, she'll be taking the next item. All right. Thanks, CJ. Awesome. We're fun.

So, I don't want to steal any thunder from Maxine, so I will let you Maxine kind of just ceue things up and all your hard work on this next agenda item.

Um, well, thank you, Matt. So, there's two items for Cahill Square Park improvements. The first one is an um ADA accessible sidewalk that connects the new playground equipment area to the bathrooms and the tennis court to the warming house area. So, we've noticed that a lot of people that use the park are um walking, pushing strollers, and riding bikes through the segment of Cahill that's kind of like west of the tennis courts. Um but that's not ADA accessible. And um that is one of the goals of the corp is to improve ADA accessibility. So that was sidewalk. And then if you can scroll down, can I ask you a question about the sidewalk? So I also know that in the midst of that there is a very large catch basin that feeds part of the retention basin and the So how will the sidewalk work with that? So, it it's going to have a 2% slope down to the east. Um, so then it would drain down um to that area.

We will not be touching that. There's enough existing width that we can fit a sidewalk and keep that honeycomb uh detention basin to collect storm water. So, it'll actually help as far as storm water collection based on it. So, this will be to the east of the honeycomb. It will be scroll down to the map. There it is. It's kind of hard to see on that one. Yeah. Honeycomb's about right here. Yeah. So, it'll be to the west of that. Okay. This is running along this fence line. It's one and a half ft off the fence and then so the water would drain and then go down into the

Will you still be able to see over the fence? I know it's kind of neat to be able to see the baseball games when they're happening from that area. Um, yes. Okay. It would be so the fence kind of is on like concrete post. Um so then it would be level with that. Okay. Perfect.

And that was one of the as we went through the Kill reimagining process. That was something I think that the village board overall had a universal agreement with is that we need to do a better job of that interconnectivity from one feature to another that it's very modular right now. this pathway for whatever it's worth, especially with parents to take their little ones to the bathroom, for instance. Um, I think we need to do a better job of telling people that the bathrooms are open. So, I think now that we have a pathway, there would be also a sign I would recommend to with an arrow that says bathrooms open and then little ones don't have to use random bushes all over the place that this would be a great pathway.

Exactly. So, this really does help and it does not have an adverse impact on our future tennis court improvements when the time comes. So, this this is just a nice little add-on now that we're done with the playground enhancements to continue those ADA improvements within our corp and create that interconnectivity within the park. Yeah, it's really hazardous to walk in between there right now. Yeah, it's like a gullying angle as you go. Y

Thank you. Sorry. And for the village board members, I just want to mention because it was talked about as part of the CIP, we're planning to use the borrowed funds from 2025, but then we'll be including it in the CIP that is being discussed at the next village board meeting. So essentially, we're like using advanced money in order to be able to get this done quickly. And it's a benefit that we're using 2025 bid unit cost from our sidewalk contractor and they've already given us a quote. Maxine has already reviewed and evaluated this and I guess you can confirm that they have the availability to do it this year. Correct? Yes. Item two.

Um and then so the second improvement was that um existing concrete slab that used to house the chiller for um the ice rink on um Cahill. We um so this is a rendering of a sun shade that would go over that existing slab because that slab now is used for picnic tables as like a rest area for people that are using the new playground equipment. Um so this would be similar to um the sh the sun the sun's shades at Council Commons. So

is so I'm looking at the square that's underneath that. Is that is that something that's raised off the ground or is that It's very conceptual. That does not actually exist. I think it's I believe it's just line work for their CAD drawing. Okay. Yeah. I was just trying cuz I was like I don't want people tripping on stuff to get into it. Okay. The only thing that you'll see is the poles.

Will it be anchored on the ground all the way around like that? It'll actually flush mount on the concrete itself because there's so many different obstructions that Maxine and I talked about with like there's the transformer with a lot of electricity over to the west and then you have the tennis courts that are to the north and there's no wiggle room. So it makes sense from like the columns that would just be a anchored flush mount. We don't have we we avoid any utility obstructions by digging. Could we plant a handful of trees now so by the time we have to replace it, the trees will be mature enough to just provide the shade in the future? Well,

wherever they fit. Yes. I'm looking at Yeah, if you scroll a lot of space, there's not a lot of space for who knows. I would wonder about potentially some taller. So, scroll back up to the Dang it. I'm thinking of all the children who are going to clothesline themselves on those lines coming down. Could we potentially put a couple shrubs or something around those go to the to the um to the shade sail?

Yeah, to the sail. So where those are coming down on the side um potentially like arborita or something so that it's so kids aren't running into them. Um where so like where those four things are coming down that are holding the sail up posts. The posts. Yeah. Somehow making you know putting a bush there or putting something there so that kids don't trip on them because they're not always Yeah. The ones on the north are pretty well protected. The ones on the Yeah. The ones along the the fence line probably are fine, but the ones on the south side if we could just put something around them. Yeah. make them more. Mhm.

I don't think you'd be able to put another tree. I think you might be able to squeak one in. Just barely, but there's so much there's a lot of canopy right around that. So, anyways, um any chance there could be an electrical outlet? There's a huge electrical transformer there. So, so we can look into that. I'm not saying no, but it it's it's a cost to step down a three-phase system to like outlets like your 20 amps uh plug in. Well, imagine foon lighting like we have at console commons. We can look

I mean I know that changes a lot of stuff but it is it's having electricity near a picnic area is I'm just always thinking about that. Yeah. But but the but I would say what's different about that is you have fancy lighting next to spotlights that are already it kind of takes away from the ambiance of the tennis courts you're referring to a little Yeah I mean the tennis tennis court ambiance no no I'm saying you've got the tennis courts lights so it's really bright so it it's already very bright there at night um whether adding and I'm thinking ambient lighting is going to be beneficial

my one kid's already aged out of playgrounds at the age 11. So, majority of your playground users are probably going to be there there during the daylight hours from a lighting perspective. And having some uh fest tunes there, it would look really cool, but I don't know who would be really optimizing that. Do we need to provide mood lighting for the teenagers who hang out there at night? And the the answer, so what's funny about this is that Sam Sam and I were talking about this exact thing. And then I said, "Well, eventually Tara is going to talk about the children would be up to no good because and I I checked that off my bang court."

Um I will just quick quick say that the um the the tennis court lighting is one court to the north. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it is. But it's bright. I mean, it really is bright over there at night. Power's not a bad idea. Even if it's lighting yourself. Yeah, if it's not possible, I mean, yeah, it'd be nice to be able to plug something in. I can look at what we have existing. Matt, let me ask this question. Is there anything opportunistic about doing electrical at this with this project? I would say much unless we would do a festune, but again, I don't think that that's universal. What

meaning? Is there a reason is it better from a project management standpoint to do the electrical now or to do it at another time as a separate project? Independent because you'd be bringing in different contractors. Well, this is just a material order from a vendor anyway. Our staff's installing it. So, yes, it would be separate. Yeah. So, I think we could put it on a project list, but we're just trying to keep things streamlined. Well, it's only 8:15 at night. We should probably talk about this more. We got We got to pick colors. Oh, yeah. We do have to pick colors. I have one in mind. Sub. All right. What's your color that you have in mind? Or the blue dukes, right? One of the blue dukes. Yep. It's the playground. Well, it's like light blue and orange. Like a teal orange and

teal and then like that color blue and then orange. Okay. So, we were trying to intentionally match the the blue color for the playground purposes, but I like the blue dukes as well. And it'll match our sun shade sales over at the council common. It's not that you're going to see them directly, but just from consistency. Does this aquatic blue look more like that blue in real life? Cuz this looks more navy to me. Um I kind of thought I looked like that. It does. Okay. That's I was just looking at the Okay. Works for me. Did they send you samples? No, I would do that. Yeah. Make sure you have the samples. Yeah. Cuz if we didn't do black, I think I might just go with like desert sand.

Yeah. you know, just some kind of like neutral color that's not if it does if it Yeah. If the blue is that looks more navy. Yeah. But if the blue isn't the bluey one, I would go I wouldn't bring in some more colors like red and yellow. Give you the ultimate responsibility of taking those fabric samples over there and making a decision. The only other thing I talk about is just the color fading over the years. Um, you know, if we know if it does or not and like desert sand might not fade so much, then blue the blue. Pretty sure it's not going to be cherry red. Um, I heard that the blue actually holds up well. They kind of like steered away from like the red and like orang-ish colors. Um,

you need a motion for this. Lighter blue. Yes, we would. Go for it. Uh, I make a motion to um recommend the village board uh to approve the Cahill ADA sidewalk and playground shade in the total of 41,725 based on the memo in whatever color blue Maxine thinks is right. We'll call it Maxine blue. I'll second. All in favor? I I Okay. Wow. start. All right. Well, good work. We have Thank you, Max.

Yes. Thank you very much, Maxine. Um, so we have a lot of updates. Do is do you I mean, I don't think we necessarily need to go through them all, but the question is, have people read through, especially the red do we have specific questions about anything? I do think that probably touch on the dry tension basin as far as well just just to reiterate

that we're not moving forward with the proposed uh project due to information that we received from previous uh DPW staff that during construction activities of the original dry detention basin, it was discovered that groundwater naturally seeps into that basin. So a change order that was not really documented that we had in current times identified that there's a 12 plus in layer of gravel that acts as a French drain from west to east and pushes that groundwater to where we have our existing ponding issues. So by attaching a new 12in storm drain internally will not benefit from groundwater. Basically it's it's outside of the system. So we we recommend as far as staff to pause on that and really transition to a maintenance plan for that entire area based on what the original design intent was and that was grass area and a dry detention basin. So we this winter will be going out with you know hand tools, brush saws. Really we have to focus on the inlet and the outlet from just making sure that that storm sewer system it's clear. we have eyes on it. We want to limit debris from accumulating where it would have that negative impact if we do have another thousand-year storm. So, our staff already inspected that after our storm event. Everything worked as intended. We want to keep it that way. So, from a maintenance side of things, that's the most important thing is to keep those inlets and outlets clear, but also making sure that this was supposed to be a recreational feature, right? So, we don't want to keep on increasing

some of that. That is correct. That's our intent is to really squeeze those margins as much as possible. And it is true that you may be bringing forward in a future date some equipment, some change of equipment that we might need. Yeah, I think we're going to try our backs at first and see how well that works. But if we find that it's too swampy, marshy, unsafe for staff to get in there to do and perform maintenance, then yes, that might be another item that we bring in the future or maybe even a future CIP. Okay. In theory, doing it in January, it's hopefully. I do know in the past equipment and people have been stuck have gotten stuck in it even, right? I'm hoping that in January it freezes. It It was in the winter. No. What do you know?

And it doesn't fully It never does fully freeze. So, my kid that sleds in there in January, it comes back wet still, but it's better conditions than July just there. Certainly. Um Um and then the flood event. I mean obviously you are still collecting data. We are still highly encouraging people. Are they still able to make reports but that would be you know the most when you make a report that's where we get the best data and so we can focus. So that is obviously something that's continuing.

When do you think we'll have a recap meeting in the public works? You know what I mean? where we have you're going to do some formal work on meeting together on afteraction and future plans. Do do you have a guess what month we'll talk about that at this meeting? Yeah, that's a really good question. I would say give us at least a couple months. We're still meeting with residents. We have with neighbor ones. So, I would say a minimum of a couple months as we start to keep on getting that stuff filtered in

January. Yeah. With within the CIP. I think that's going to give staff more direction and hopefully approval to do more investigating on all of our previous studies that have already been done from the 2010 storms. Let's dust off those plans. Let's look at all of our GIS data, the data from the last storm. So, that's all within the CIP. And that's going to be really the segue to start to really look at what historically was done, what worked well, what is still on that list, and where our area of focus is based on what people have given us as far as their their basement backup information. So I think it'll be very linear that way and it'll be part of the process of our CIP, but that doesn't mean that it won't be like anformational recap meeting to your point that we'll have more of a robust conversation about the FEMA the what what we did internally at DW.

Yeah, we probably don't need to discuss all the ins and outs of it. I just want to like have the public know that in two to three months we're going to have a meeting that goes through all of this. Well, and and I also think it's important that we recognize that yes, we have a CIP. However, if in this process we discover something that is separate from the the CIP, we deviate, which is exactly what happened to our last CIP. Yep. Yep. Yep. Big Bay. Um when do you think that'll be wrapped up? I went there today. They removed the rip wrap from the hillside where the temporary bypass went down. So, as far as restoration activities, that is done. The trees and everything.

The trees and everything. Uh, Milwaukee County said we can't plant trees until after October 1st. Oh, well that's pretty soon. It from a maintenance standpoint and you have better, more favorable climate conditions for trees, for growing everything else. So, they just don't have the staff to water 42 trees. So, they want to extend that. We can't. So, we won't be putting grass in until we get the trees done in that section. Incorrect. It's tough to put sod in and then drive over with track skin steers and plant a tree. We put sod in in mid October or late October. That seems like the wrong time. Oh, you can plant sod dormant in sod. All right.

Yeah. So, hire him to put the sod in. I planted sod in perfect conditions and it died immediately. You're fired. You have skunks. Um, all right. Me too. Bike and pet safety. We all may take. Okay. Anyone else have a a project or anything that you're wants on that um on that wetlands again where you're going to do maintenance? We had some pretty vocal um public people here speaking on that in the past. Are they going to be happy with this? I wonder. I I know there's nothing you can do about it. I mean, we have to maintain it.

Yeah. I mean, so I mean, I think we'll end up having I think we've got cattails for the foreseeable future. So, yeah. And I would hate to have vocal people when our storm water detention basin doesn't work, right? But I I rather focus on those efforts of the fine because I would hate to have a room full of people when it doesn't perform. Um, moving on to Library Park. Yes. Um, I think we're starting to plant that next month, aren't we?

Not I I'm trying to push, same thing as Milwaukee County. I want to push for dormcy planting for Library Park because there's so many trees. I don't want to be in in a position to water. So, I would say November, December is when we're planting. Yep. Just wanted to It wasn't a Yeah. Mhm. Just wanted to have it on the mental calendar. That's hard doing that. And we already received bids. The bids were accepted. So, it's part of our project for this year. And I got to say, I love the final page, the map of the homes. Um Well, and the the reason I asked about the because I know that there are people who are not reported on here. Oh, sure.

And so that's why I want to make sure that people are still able to report. Yeah. I mean, it's just fascinating to to how the cluster in 2010 was so dramatically obvious. Yep. And now the clustering is you really got to focus on it. There's obviously areas. And this is a combined one. We asked uh from the GIS to have separate maps. We could see patterns from a sanitary versus storm versus both. So, it'll be interesting. We keep on diving in there where the area focus needs to be. how people determined whether they had sanitary only or sanitarious. It does seem like we need to like interview people who

I I feel like everything that's sanitary is sanitary and storm because that's what causes it to back up is storm. Yeah, you are you are correct. Yeah, it's more is there sanitary. Yeah. And I guess it's how dirty was it? Yeah. Dirtier than But Oh, and I can say in my neighborhood. What was yours? It was bad. You mean what was it? In my house, it was mostly just storm water, but I put in a backflow pre. Where did it come from? Come up through your It came up through Well, so it started when it first started, it was coming up through, you know, my house was built in 1932, so the there's some cracks in the concrete floor. It started coming up through there. But what the adjuster and the insurance people determined is that my sump pumps finally failed because they just couldn't keep up.

Yeah. Um and so I didn't get as much. I mean, last time I had a lot more, so I just had about this much. And when it all went down, it was clear that it was like grass and dirt, but there was no like But it wasn't coming from your drain. No. Okay. That's it wasn't the sewer, but I think the reason it wasn't because if you look at this map, there are some people in my neighborhood that were Yep. I think the backflow preenter helped in the house that I put in too for sure. But it was Yeah. Also think the fact that we've got that nice little park there on the corner now helped too. A little extra green space. Uh I am looking for a motion tojourn. Do second.

Second. Wow. Longest day.