Prison Committee - Regular Meeting

WE'RE GOING TO CALL THE MEETING TO ORDER.

AND THANK YOU FOR MAKING SURE THE HVAC IS WORKING PROPERLY HERE THIS MORNING, BECAUSE OUTSIDE IS KIND OF HOT. INSIDE WILL BE HOT ON THE TOPICS THAT WE'RE GOING TO COVER. SO WITH THAT, TAKE THE ROLL.

OKAY. THIS IS THE ROLL FOR THE WEDNESDAY, JULY 1, 2026 COMPREHENSIVE PLAN ADVISORY COMMITTEE. MEETING. WE'RE IN JULY. CAN'T BELIEVE THAT ALREADY, HALFWAY THROUGH THE YEAR. SO WE'RE GOING TO ROLL. LET'S GO. MAYOR DARCY.

HERE.

COUNCILMAN CARDINUS. HERE. MS. BOTTOMLEY SAID SHE'D BE ABSENT. MR. DORIS. HERE. MS. GRUENBERG. HERE. MS. HOWARD. HERE. MR. MARTIN SAID HE'D BE ABSENT. MR. O'HARA.

HERE.

MR. PARKER. MR. PRIOR. HERE. MR. RANDICH. HERE. MR. RICO.

HERE.

DR. RAUS SAID SHE MIGHT BE ABSENT. MS. WALKER, MR. STUNICH. HERE. CHAIRMAN WALSH.

HERE.

OKAY.

The first action on the agenda is the approval of the minutes. Do we have any motion to approve?

So moved.

Motion made. Second? Second. Any discussion? Comments? Hearing none, all in favor?

Aye.

Opposed? Same sign. Motion carries. There were no nays, so I'll let her present in the affirmative.

Great. Next is citizens to be heard on agenda items. Do not see any citizens present. So we can move on to old business, which we don't have any agenda items. Which brings us to new business. This is a discussion of Joe Minicozzi's presentation to the City of Joliet, which was the Understand the Growth of Joliet presentation. We had two presentations, actually three. delivered to the city on June 17th, so just a couple weeks ago. So what we wanted to do today was have a conversation about key findings that the committee felt were imparted to them and discussion of the recommendations that were outlined and then discuss next steps. So I can go up to the podium and plug in. And we could go to parts of the presentation, too, if people would find that helpful. I'm not able to do it from here, but we can do that. So at any point, I can go up there and plug into the system.

So the thought was to highlight Pair down from 225 slides or whatever.

Yes.

Some key and salient points that we need to look at. Yeah, I can pull it up. So... I think it'd be helpful to do that.

Yeah, okay.

While Jane's doing that, maybe I'll make a comment. I apologize again for not being at the last meeting, but I did watch the instant replay. And I would say compliments to all of you for a great discussion on the housing issue, because it's very critical to the future of the city that we get that subject right. And I thought It was really good to hear all the different perspectives and have our consultant help us kind of pull those things together. And we'll look forward to getting that recap from them as soon as they have that. Because it was quite extensive in terms of information and exchange. And I thought it would take them some time to do that. So hopefully at the next meeting we'll have that recap. and it will be good. And always on cue. Anyway, I just thought it was important to mention that, because I did watch it in its entirety, and I thought the discussion was really good. compliments to everyone in terms of the input you've provided and the exchange that occurred on that topic because it's so important to what we're about in terms of this whole plan developing.

You know, we're kind of on new business and I know the feds are working on a housing bill. I don't know if it's passed. But if that thing comes to fruition, we need to be so articulate on that we can grab every freaking dollar out of it because they're looking at an overall culture change of housing that needs big investment. You know, we're spending $55 billion on wars in other countries. What about us? And I think it's about time we find our place in some of this federal money to help bring back 154 year old community so something to really keep our eye on and know with articulation how we can tap into that well when it finally comes through because it's going to be a huge help and it's in all levels of housing so hopefully what do you think doug will get done um i think eventually it had a lot of support eventually well it passed both chambers and we're just

waiting on a signature from the White House if certain conditions are met. And hopefully Congress will overrule any resistance and we can get to work.

The art of the deal takes place once again at the federal level.

Pardon me.

Doesn't it become law after so much time whether he signs it or not?

Yes, but I do believe it does have to have congressional passage in order to overcome that delay, does it not?

WE'LL HAVE TO ASK THE SUPREME COURT. I MEAN, NEVER MIND. I'M SORRY. THAT WAS GOOD.

BACK TO THE MEETING. I MEAN, I KNOW THE HOUSE LEAD SPONSOR ON THAT LEGISLATION, AND I CAN CALL THEM AND SEE WHAT WE CAN GET BY WAY OF INFORMATION IN THAT REGARD. IT'S GOOD TO KNOW PEOPLE. IT'S FLAWED. OKAY.

So Dustin and I are going to go back and forth with this. So I have the presentation pulled up.

Really quick, show of hands, how many people have seen this already? Because that will inform how people go. OK. So I saw most of the people. That's a lot. So for the sake of this conversation, I'm going to run and look at our land use, because this is the Comprehensive Land Advisory Committee. And the purpose of this conversation is kind of like just replay ourselves with this pretty recent, not gonna go into it, not gonna hear me talk for 20, 30 minutes. We've all been very patient. But we'll see that land use portfolio. And one of the things that we saw in that presentation was the what next. One of those recommendations was to consider diversifying our land use portfolio. Just to remind ourselves what that current portfolio mix is and why that may be worth considering. And then really turn it over to this group for a conversation about what would make sense. Is that an idea that we kind of go around?

Is it not?

That's fine. You're an advisory committee. That's why we're going to have the conversation. Sound good? Any objections? So I'm going to skip all the biographical stuff that Joe did such a good job because he's Joe and I'm not. Just remind ourselves that what we're talking about is land value per acre. This is how productive a parcel is from a tax perspective, from a revenue perspective for the city. And you're going to see some land values that are very intense, but they're also very large. So we're going to look at efficiency of revenue, productivity, or land value, right? So just to ground us in what we're doing, again, we're only talking about property tax and sales tax. We're gonna talk about Joliet. Joliet happens in Will and Kendall Counties. So like I said, we see some intense, this is just like a weather map, where it's purple and red, it's very intense value, right? When we look at land value per acre, it's a little less intense, and that's okay. This is that map, only with the revenues in three dimensions. This is this map with just Joliet. And this is a same map without all the other kind of things. Right? We're going to skip that. What's important to know about our land use portfolio is not all of it is revenue driven. And that's okay. And Willingham County, about 80% of the land is taxable, 20% exempt. That's not a judgment on the exempt. Great stuff happens on exempt properties. Schools, hospitals, cemeteries, parks. Stuff we need and stuff that helps make it through. And in Joliet, very similar, 80-20. What you'll notice is a little shade of yellow here that's not over here. I regret the Packers colors. Not my choice either as a Lions fan. But that 8% is intermodal. It's neither fish nor fowl. It's not exempt. It's not taxable. Those companies pay some calculation to the state. The state remits some portion of that calculation to the state. And in our downtown, remember that very tall purple spike? Pretty impressive when you consider only half of downtown is taxable. So, good for us. I'm going to skip through all of this. This is very detailed. I love it. I would love to talk to you about it. Not what we're doing here today. If you want to see it again, it's online. If you want me to talk to you about it, nothing would make me happier. You send me an email, give me a call. What we're going to talk about is zoning. This is a comprehensive plan advisory committee. So remember that's 78% taxable. Of that, 46% of our fair city is single-family residential, 30% is industrial, 10% is commercial, 7% is intermodal, 5% is multifamily, and 2% is . That's us. Here we are. And on the right, is how much value from a property tax and sales tax perspective that proportion produces. So single family takes up 46% of the space, produces 61% of the value. Commercial punches pretty much at its weight class. If you need it, it's great. 10% and 10%. Multifamily, a little bit more productive. 5% of the space, 7% of the value. Intermodal, we're going to gloss over that. We don't have too much we can do about that. Missing middle, punching way above its weight class. 2% of the land area, 5% of the value. And I would like to draw our eye to the large black box in the top right-hand corner. 30% of the land value. It produces 16% of the revenue from the property sales tax perspective. So when we think about our choices that we can make here with a comprehensive plan and what we have the opportunity to do with a future land use map or future regulations, that's kind of what I'd like us to think about is are these proportions what we think they ought to be based on their productivity and are they what they ought to be based on a subjective perspective like what do we like and what do we need and our opportunity is to balance what we like and what we need so that was a whole lot very very fast Mr. Randich Can you define for me what the missing middle means?

Absolutely.

I have a great picture. So missing middle is, there's a lot of different words for it, right? Density, medium density. It's basically anything that isn't a single family detached structure. In between that, where I live, where probably most people live right now, and a giant, well, not a giant, an apartment complex, right? So I don't live in a fourplex now. I did in the past, right? Just like a lot of people might have at some point in their life, or I would love to get to the point where I have a townhouse and not a yard and a pool, a lousy above-ground pool for those, it's more work. But yeah, Missing Middle, and Joy has a ton of it because it was developed pre-automobile, right? That's just how development occurred. forever until the advent of the post-war America and the boom of the automobile, even in the 20s and 30s with the interurbans, right? So, Julius blessed me with a lot of beautiful housing stock in a lot of beautiful neighborhoods. And it's like that because there's a variety of housing types, my opinion. Any other questions really quick? Since you've all seen this pretty much, I don't want to gloss over it, but I also don't want to dwell on things we've already heard. Do we feel like we're in a space where we might be willing to have a conversation about that Nandy's portfolio, just kind of like discussion?

Can you put that grid back up on, like industrial was 11,000 acres, but 30% to 16%? Absolutely. So what will our target be? Because we know we've got some revenue issues coming at this city over the next decade, aka health insurance. I'm not pulling punches anymore on some of the things that were done in past administrations. We have to find a way to fill a huge hole that this city did back in 2016, and it wakes me up every morning. So is the missing middle what's going to try and help fill that tank of expense? Because that is an expense, and there's no revenue coming in against it. So when we look at this, we've got to find the best place to create new revenue to fill that hole that's irreversible. Unless people get together and have a Real come to Jesus moment. We're asking the union leaders that it's time to sit down and talk about it because what was enacted, I'm not going to be quiet about it anymore. In 2016, we put together an insurance plan that $100 a month for the rest of your life. Well, this year we're $37 million short. When that thing is over in 2030, we're going to be $54 million short, but we can't stop it. Because the next decade is going to be a half a billion dollars to insure around 1,600 people. 150,000 people have to spend that money over a decision made in 2016. And I'm going to be much more articulate about it now because it's been under the radar. We finally got the last union contract done with 440 signed. Now it's time to talk about how do we fix a really bad decision. And one of the ways to do it is trying to mitigate some of it THE BEST TARGET WE CAN SHOOT AT TO BRING IN REVENUE FOR THIS CITY. SO I'M GOING TO BE REAL FRANK, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER, BUT THAT REALLY IS A CONCERN THAT WE SHOULD ALL BE AWARE OF. I'M NOT GOING TO KEEP IT UNDER THE RUG ANYMORE BECAUSE THE RESIDENTS OF THIS COMMUNITY NEED TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW THAT CAN'T BRING THE HORSE BACK IN THE BAR. WE GOT TO FIND A WAY TO FIX IT. WE GOT FOUR MORE YEARS. I'VE HAD PEOPLE ASK ME, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WHEN 2030 ROLLS AROUND? Are we going to have a $10,000 deductible? I said, I don't know. We got four years to try and turn this thing around. And we can't stop the retirees. They get it for the rest of their lives. Plan B, Medicare. The city covers it. I mean, it's like, I hate to be frank. I'll be frank for a few minutes and then tarry after that. But we need to find ways to fill this particular.

And even if that were not the case, the economic development in the surrounding areas is not being matched by the community development. building housing of all kinds at every price point is a key to solving that issue and missing middle housing. I know the build plan was not popular and I know why, but what was outstanding about it and that no one disagreed with is that we are in the midst of a nationwide, but of course we're focusing on Illinois and Joliet housing crisis and that that can be addressed through gentle increases in density that you will find only with missing middle housing.

I think that was my thought, too, is like that little square at the bottom of that group of numbers is probably where the revenue horse is running.

And there is room for that, for verticality, for infill development, and to improve already existing housing stock that could be brought back to productive use.

I think that's a great place to ask a question. Where does it make sense to do that, right? Because one of the things that I heard people when they talked about the build plan was it was too prescriptive. It's just like the tide just goes up. It's not strategic. I think what we have the opportunity to do here is find ways where it's strategic and it could be embraced and successful and everybody in this room could be enthusiastic about that. Because I think there are logical places where it does make a ton of sense to consider that, right?

Like around the gateway?

From a physical perspective and from a community health perspective. Does anybody have, like, as you drive around, where you think, when would that make sense?

The east and south side of Joliet.

Yep. Downtown. Gateway, south side, east side.

Yep.

dustin you're you're talking about infill development right now infill redevelopment yep i would say the riverfront both sides i think that's fair anywhere where you have the older housing stock around the downtown and you've done the etod plan that is and what you're doing with riverwalk the hud choice neighborhoods initiative is ripe for the plucking the serenity i'm a big believer that the city should try

and I know it's owned by the school districts, but the Bronk Road property owned by the high school and the Troy property on Essington and Glenwood, to me seem like those should be some sort of residential as opposed to school. And, you know, I know the schools own them. We should be able to figure out how we could collaborate with them to sort of pry some of that property away and maybe redevelop it. I think those are great info sites.

I have knocked on those doors, Steve, but they're not answering.

Well, and to Steve's point around the schools where Dr. Rouse has mentioned that there has been a lot of loss of enrollment because housing is inaccessible and unaffordable. that could help address some of those issues too.

One of the key points that I took away from the video, and I actually watched it twice, the presenter said that density generates more revenue. So if we know that density generates more revenue, That, I think, is what we need to look at. How do we create more denser neighborhoods? And the other thing is infrastructure is a liability. The more we annex out, the more we are putting stress onto an already overstressed system financially.

So you're saying suburban sprawl is not sustainable? I didn't say that.

I thought it was interesting, though, when we looked at all the pump stations we've inherited through all these developments, and all of a sudden now we've got to keep these motors running, and that's our maintenance cost. So developers come in, make a bunch of money, and okay, here you go. Keep this machine running for the next 50 years. Good luck. And I got the same point out of it. We've got so much infrastructure untapped in areas that we could continue to develop without going outside yet. You know, I think the Western sprawl was great when it was great, but I think we still have a lot of infill here. We need to and and you know, we're like ETO D where we got some investment to change some of the zoning programs, right?

That that's been hampering us as well Yes, so just in case not everybody knows what Mary Darcy is referring to is Jane and her team were able to secure funding through the RTA to implement that ETO D E to D kind of plan was just that as a plan as framework we like this everybody participated we all said yes and now we're actually going to operationalize that how do you actually achieve a lot of those a lot of us regulatory we can control we can control and that is what uh we're working through right now so yeah you're absolutely right there were regulatory barriers and those are being addressed so that's probably the first you've all heard of that but you know these are some of the inside things that you all need to know that we understand that

We can only build on this side. That's never going to work. But we're going to change some of those zoning codes so we can get a little more of that purple downtown or wherever, not just downtown.

Another question that I asked during the presentation was, the sprawl is there. The infrastructure is there. So how do we mitigate some of, or how do we help create denser development in those locations where there's urban sprawl, and we know that there's urban sprawl. And there are creative ways for us to still be able to create denser development even in those locations that the land is large, the houses are large, but still help kind of bring in more revenue for those existing developments.

So I think that's an interesting question. And one of the things that you might remember as a committee we brought to you were those study areas. Correct. What was that, three months ago? Yeah. One of those was on the West Side. This is what we heard through feedback from the public and people coming to the public engagement was, The people who live in that place don't necessarily like that it's just houses, right? So I guess I would be curious to hear all the voices in this room kind of weigh in on, well, if that's what we heard, let's just assume that's true. Let's also assume that this data is accurate. as a leadership group, as an advisory committee, what do you think is tolerable and what do you think is actionable with that opportunity? Because people said this is an opportunity for us that we want to look at. Here's some information that kind of validates potential solutions, right? So what does that look like? Does anybody have like a reaction or an idea?

Naperville just developed And it's right at, I think, Aurora Naperville. Six months ago, I was driving down that area. And I think it's, I can't remember what it's called. Block 59. So literally six months ago, I don't remember Block 59 being there. Maybe it was. But they did a great job of looking at the existing mall, developing around that, and then across the street, it's nothing but commercial. It's restaurants. So that community that they've developed, I mean, I'm sure it was in the works. I don't know how long it was in the works. But they did a great job of looking at existing infrastructure that was not being fully utilized. And not only did they bring in housing, but they also brought in a ton of opportunities for commercial, where that place, I've been there twice in the past month. And every time that I've gone, it's been jumping. It's all restaurants. On one side. Of the block 59? Block 59, but on the other side of the street is the mall. Yeah. And the apartments in the house. Yeah.

I can tell you, we had the chance to do the same thing with our Sears property as they did up there. And the previous administration blew them out. 1,000 units on 17 acres. And they did that on 14 acres up there. I know the guy that owned the property.

Well, could that project idea be revived?

Well, at that point, the money was in the threes. The cost of building was probably 30% less. And I've talked to them, and it doesn't pencil right now, unless there's subsidies. So if this federal thing gets put together, I think we might be able to utilize, if it ever happens. There's probably criteria, but things like that, could that happen? Just like anything else, when costs get too high, then you'd have to raise the rent so it would almost be too much. But, you know, those are things that I wish we would have done then. That was a complete miss.

And I had to keep talking. Keep talking. One other thing is, from what we've seen, at no point should we ever change residential zoning to industrial zoning. Never. It doesn't pencil.

So let's pick up on the zoning thing because we have a whole range of zoning and some of the zoning has been there forever. Sure. And we need, you're in the process of reviewing all of those now because that zoning is critical to be used by a developer of any size, whether it's on a small scale or larger scale.

when do we think the zoning thing will be in a position to use that to leverage it as a development tool so i think it depends on where you are thinking about doing that right so if you are thinking about doing that in what we've defined as a community the downtown that etod area we're in process of changing the zoning regulations right now right If that's chosen to be adopted by council, that becomes effective immediately, right? When we're talking about some of these other character areas, like Ridge Road Corridor or Cass Street on the east side, that's going to come... after the comprehensive plan, and then there's gonna be another process that's just as participatory and considered about, just like we're doing the zoning code for the ETOD, like the overlay district, we're gonna have to do the same thing for the entire community. to operationalize the vision that this community has adopted right because the comprehensive plan is a vision it's a direction and then we have to do it the work of doing will take some time as well so in the interim like what happens in that interactive right like we've got this great idea we've got this urgency here's an opportunity but you can't do it by right well the good news is stuff's been happening this whole time in Joliet since we, our last comprehensive plan in the 60s, right? Well, it didn't stop certainly, right? We've grown 100%. So we can continue to do things. There's developments, there's variations of use, there's special exams. There is a way to get things done that we can accomplish creative ideas, right? So to the mayor's point, that Louis Joliet Mall redevelopment didn't happen, we would have found a way to make it happen from a regulatory perspective. Absolutely. Things can happen. Things are happening all the time. It's what we choose to attend to and recruit and facilitate, I think, is that interim period's opportunity. That is a challenge for a person who wants to spend a few million dollars, right? They want to know they can do it just by writing. There's a lot of risk with time and approvals. So that's also an opportunity for a council to come together and say, I don't want to get over my skis and tell a council what to do. It's really a city manager and a council decision. But there's ways you can signal to the market that this is our intention. This is what we want to do. This is what we want, right? so i would say we don't have to we don't have to succumb to analysis paralysis we don't have to say i'm going to make uh perfectly enemy of the good we can we can do stuff in between the zoning code revision and now we've been doing stuff for 60 years and we can just do better stuff so if there were a developer that had let's say 40 acres somewhere in those zones those four target areas that we've talked about

they could meet with you and potentially work something out.

Absolutely. For sure. after Ms. Walker, Mr. Cornelius has been exceedingly patient. Go ahead.

I just had a question about the zoning for the ETOD. So once the zoning for the ETOD is approved, is there a way for us to kind of look at that, see that it might be something that can transfer over to the overall zoning plan? Is that something that generally happens or no?

We're getting kind of technical, Jane. Do you have an opinion? I would say just as a layperson, yeah, there's going to be principles that are copy and pasteable, but I would also caution that you just control A, control C, control B, the whole thing. because that ETOD zoning overlay district will be the result of the steering committee of a plan that was adopted by a wide variety of stakeholders and is contextually appropriate, right? What we don't want, well, what I would suggest we consider not doing is doing exactly what the BUILD Act did, is saying, you shall do this whether you like it or not, right? I think we want to find a coalition of success. But that's just me personally. Jamie, do you want to say anything additional?

Okay. I thought.

Councilor Cardenas?

Your turn. I think the biggest challenge for us is to put, you know, in perspective for people what our goals are, right? When we look at our current budget as a city of Joliet, how much of it comes from property taxes, how much comes from, like, sales tax revenue and whatnot. So the answer, when we talk about rezoning and more density, I feel like sometimes we gotta be careful that we're not just saying we just need apartments everywhere, because that's what's gonna solve the problem. That's not what we're saying. It's gotta be a mixed use of commercial and residential, and therefore, if we look at our current budget today, where when you look at those spikes, that's a mixed use of residential and commercial, right? And we're doing, you know, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, our current budget, the majority of it comes from our mixed use and residential in our downtown or urban areas. But that's only, I think in that one screen you showed, it was like, what, 12, 15% of our total development, right? So if we did more of that which would go into like the missing middle that makes use development so it doesn't mean we just need thousands of apartments all over the place we need something like that block 59 where we can do some development where it's maybe it's commercial on the bottom residential on top we can do like what they call it i think he mentioned like uh one way of doing it like to be created like almost like we have our downtown area we're going to say that uh Rock Run right now, it's kind of like that, it's a little main street, right? Because it's got 500 apartments, it's got commercial. So where else throughout the city of Joliet can we potentially do like another, you know, main street? So maybe like you said, the mall is a prime example of a place where you add apartments, there's already commercial, that could be a huge spike. our downtown obviously it's a you know it's a no-brainer it's already there how do we reinvest back into that part so i think that conversation of the idea is to find where we can do more mixed use because it's not just our budget in joliet is not totaled by property taxes it's sales taxes people visiting our communities people coming so you hear a lot of negativity about why are we investing so much in downtown why are we spending on the realtor why are we spending on this that we're not spending we're investing in areas that generate the majority of our budget for the city to operate. So when we talk about these gaps and things that we have currently, the best way they're going to fill those is to make Joliet attractive enough to create more development, to create more people to visit, because it's not just on the backs of the property tax owners. And then we don't have to sit there and raise property taxes if we can encourage more people to visit us and be here.

that's a question on the Cullinan property I know the 500 apartment unit is there are there more housing types planned for that area do you know more housing types could they change

We go to them and say, would you consider this? Who knows? I think anything is possible if it pencils and it makes people money, right? Like, that's also, you know, make sure the people who are going to do this get a fair shake as well. But as it is right now, that document doesn't contemplate anything other than what's there.

Cesar, your point, that whole sector called Ridge Road between Caton Farm in Black is a zone that we heard during the public hearings and meetings that we had that people wanted retail there and other things. So the mixed use is critically important because accessibility to whatever it is that's important to you is the number one thing that's important to you. Can I get there when I need to get there? And I don't want to drive two miles. I want to drive more. I mean, it might sound crazy, but that accessibility to services to take care of your household needs, if you will, whether that's an apartment, townhome, condo, or single-family home, you still want access to supermarkets, drugstores, other types of grocery stores, et cetera, that generate that additional revenue. So I think that that is something that we've been talking about and need to build.

Because I think to that point, if you think about that Ridge Road, you've got that big piece of land that, you know, is is our automatic answer we need a walmart target a home depot and all these big box which i don't think it is right can that turn into more like you said that block 59 or the you know seven bridges over off in uh woodridge where it's you know there's apartments or so it becomes more of its own main street per se right on there but people have to be open to that mixed use development of commercial and residential mixed in there in an area that's just primarily single family, right? But if you propose that, will people oppose it because they say we don't want apartments over here or town homes, but yet the answer to there is not gonna be a big Walmart because when we look at our per acre capital, that's not gonna give you the revenue you need. the density of mixed use commercial and that might be a prime spot for that which is going to be something different but i think people would learn to appreciate it when you can go maybe there's an eye doctor they're a dentist you know and whatnot all within that small space right wasn't wasn't there some pushback on building some apartments it doesn't matter what community no matter how you paint it that's why i said i think it's important to paint it more than just we're going to put apartments on ridge road It needs to be put like we're going to build a main street on Ridge Road, which is going to consist of this, which can potentially generate this.

And you're still going to get the pushback. Anytime conversations around density In any community, there is always pushback, and that is why, A, the education and the advocacy and talking as you've been reaching out to the public and getting their input to continue planting the seeds that this kind of development is what is necessary to sustain this city, to keep it moving into the future. And then for our elected officials to have the intestinal fortitude to tell their residents that this is what needs to happen in order to grow. And I'm sure that that's difficult, but that's what needs to happen because just because you think you don't want it doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do.

But if you build on Ridge Road, if you do mixed use, if you do condos and you do apartments, you automatically are going to attract those individuals who are coming out of college, who are looking to own something. So I do think that mixed use, but not just like we said, not just looking at apartments, but looking at condominiums. Condominiums are smaller apartments, but people own them. And there are some individuals who just want to own a smaller piece of property when they... Get out of college.

Once again, the argument is always all typologies, every price point, so that we can fit the needs of every kind of person. Absolutely. And that's where, again, educating the public on you think you don't want this, you think you hate it, but all the things that you think are going to happen aren't going to happen. It's going to be OK. This is what we need to do.

So how do we get a zoning approved, and then once the zoning is approved, how do we get our city council to then align with what the needs are for the future?

Get somebody with some fortitude.

And just enough fortitude. Consistent advocacy.

We do have a new perspective. I ran for mayor because I really got tired of the old perspective. I was upset when they didn't do that unit at the Sears property. And I didn't think I was going to win the election, but I brought some ideas. I thought, well, if I don't win, at least here's something that I can hang my hat on. But we need change in this community. We need to follow the future, and we need to go from east to west. We need to look at Briggs Street, that area. I mean, we have sections of the city that we have to look at individually. We've got a lot of blank canvas out off Briggs Street. And we need volume of people to get stores and things we need there too. So 15 miles long, I mean east and west, we've got what would consummate typically four communities in the length of one. But we have to look at it constructively. I brought some in here 15 years ago to build apartments out near Wedgwood Golf Course. Totally blew them out of the water. I said, just give them a soft note. They rode them out of here like they were dirt. And that's when I realized we really didn't have a lot of forward thinking.

Yeah.

I don't mean to be critical, but I just have to point out what frustrated me to the level where I wanted to try and get into a public service position.

And that same thing happened at Theodore in 59. Oh, yeah. Just in the last 18 months. And I can tell you, because I live near there, people were talking about, you know, it's going to devalue our property. It's going to put people that are going to be looking in your bedroom windows from these apartment buildings. And it's like... Don't flatter yourself. The idea of the value of my property, how will it be impacted by the development that we're talking about? I think we're talking about a plan that tries to lift all ships.

We've seen property values fall anywhere though.

I'm not really sure that we're seeing plummeting property values anywhere in this area I Understand that but that's one of the big arguments was on that property and that same developer built one on Weber Road behind the Mercedes-Benz dealership and they are really nice

Missed opportunity. Absolutely.

You know, I think the mayor talked about this and I've read about this over the years. Going back 30 years, right now we have all the new development over the past, what, 30 years has gone far west. All the single-family housing and with that, all the services that were required associated with that, whether it's roads, whether it's water service, whether it's firemen, police, new substations, that gets expensive. If we push for small infill development, I don't think you're going to get the pushback from the population. But I do think with the large multifamily complexes, because there has been a bad perception of that, we're going to get that pushback.

That's why we're focusing on the missing metal again.

So on large. Yeah. And further, I would say some of the people I know that became teachers down here, that moved in from the suburbs, that were, I would say, I won't say upper middle class, but they were definitely higher than average middle class, they were incentivized by the city 30 years ago. So wouldn't it be cheaper to incentivize people within a certain area of Joliet, whether it's the area up to I-55 and all the way to Briggs Street, to build those two-unit or three-unit buildings? and or to live there, and you bring that level of wages and income and wealth to the community, and it really doesn't cost the city, it's a lot cheaper to, in my mind, it would be cheaper to incentivize that than to incentivize the new large developments.

I couldn't agree more, but I have a question for Jane. When we did that public meeting and we had the Legacy Neighborhoods Group, how did they respond to suggestions of infill development?

That particular group at that particular night, at that particular moment, mixed. So not wildly supportive. So I do think that we will still have objections.

It still will be a hurdle to clear. I agree with you a thousand percent, but the only pushback I have on what you said is that People will still resist.

I was in that legacy movement, and I understand how a Kappa went from, I passed papers up and down Buell Avenue where every single family had been chopped up into a three unit on a 500 block, and now it's back to a single family. The values, drive up Buell Avenue from the 500 block up, it's beautiful. It didn't look like that 40 years ago. It is really nice. And those people have invested a fortune in their neighborhood. Now, on the periphery of that, you look along Center Street, you look along Hickory Street, I think there's a lot of support for it. a rebuilding of those vacant lots, not into a 12 unit, but maybe into a three unit.

But that would be part of what the Choice Neighborhoods, that's I think what they're trying to do is bring in mixed typologies at different price points from, you know, affordable and subsidized housing to market rate. And I think that's like the goal of that project is to break down warehousing people and bring in more integrated communities, which is, I think, what you're suggesting.

That's a fair suggestion, Ms. Gruenberg, but for very specific locations. Choices looking at specifically the housing side of Harrods Place for everyone.

But that's the mentality that they're applying to this.

Fair. That is accurate. I just wanted to make sure that as people hear that, they don't think that it's going to bleed out. that process is exactly right. De-densification, but contextually appropriate. Fair point.

I do want to jump in real quick. Damon raises an interesting point that I've been kind of circling, and that is All of this, everything we do, every idealized zoning map is subject to demand, right? And we just don't know what that demand profile is ultimately going to look like in a year from now, two years from now. None of this is instant, right? I think you will clean up some zoning, get some interest, identify some parcels. You can do some things short term, but medium term, long term, The idea of an incentive, I will just say this, I think flexibility matters, and you touched on this a little bit. We've been doing stuff, right? It's not going to be perfect. It needs to be sort of based in demand, but I think it's important to understand. The market is ultimately going to inform what can and can't work in these spaces. And I just hope we have a mechanism for revisiting or, at minimum, an openness going forward. And I know the tools exist, but the mayor is talking about we've got a new mindset. We're going to do this. That's valuable. That's really good. And I think it really helps. But it is... it won't be immediate and we won't know exactly how they're going to respond until we get a chance to do that.

So we have right now in progress a housing market study that talks about this kind of demand, what's the absorption rate, and the preliminary results of that show that if you build it, there's a demand for it, right? And you can get very granular in Little County, the project area of choice, and Juliet generally. And at what price point, at what demand. Demand at all price points is very high. So... You're right, that could change. And if it does, when it does, we have to adapt, right? We have to have a little bit of flexibility. But I think at this moment, I think if we're swinging from the fences, we've got a better than average chance of making contact. Yeah, I think so.

So, Doug, what is the market saying we need right now?

So we just finished our countywide housing study, and they forecast a need for 32,000 units over the next 10 years, a significant portion of which is current demand that's not being met. It is broad-based. I mean, yes, multifamily. You know, Joliet's not unique in having held off on building that for decades, so that's I want to say 80% of the current backlog. It's a big number. But I think we need a lot of units of all types across the county. It didn't dive specifically into Joliet, so I can't say which portion that is.

But there was a high demand for one-bedroom apartments, which...

There was, and it's a function of demand shifts overall. The market in general kind of moved that direction over the last couple decades. I won't waste everybody's time speculating as to why, but it did. And so the real... short-term demand is there. That said, it's impermanent. I do worry about cyclical development, and I worry, to the Mayor's point, on the Sears project. That was a very busy cycle for those kinds of things, and we missed that cycle. The investment parameters have changed, right? But it doesn't mean that new opportunities won't emerge in that space. It's just you need to be better prepared to capture them.

Doug, was that report...

of that demand that's necessary was it geographically located or just in general so they divided the county into i want to say a half dozen different sections trying to capture some of the more local but as a general rule i've spent most of my time talking about it county-wide right but will county is an interesting place we have a lot of different markets within will county of course

You know, I just want to comment. I think, was that the breakfast, the eye-opener breakfast? I talked about it at the eye-opener. And I thought it was a really nice study. And what I took out of that is, on this, and I don't know if I can share that with the board here. What can an early professional afford in Will County? And if you look at it, and they refer to it as a brand new registered nurse looking for a zero to one bedroom, like you were saying, the one bedroom units, with amenities close to Chicago, annual income $72,000, target rental $1,600 to $1,800. But on the map of Willow County, by and far the biggest, by far the biggest cluster of affordability for that nurse is in Joliet. And I just wanted to, everybody talks about Joliet is not affordable, but for the low, the I won't say high paying professional position. People are moving here because it is so affordable.

If there is something available though, and the lack of inventory continues to be the biggest issue with the housing crisis is the lack of inventory. That's what drives up the prices, right? or a factor of driving up the prices. My point is, Joliet is by far the most affordable multi-family housing here than most other places.

You have more of the density here. But I mean, I think, what does that say? 238 listings the whole year, county-wide, that fit into that parameter. And I want to say six of them were built since 2015, something like that.

And Doug, how many 18 to 35-year-olds is Will County bleeding every year? Because there is not...

I want to say the number was 893. It's somewhere between, it's 20 to 34-year-olds.

So we're losing that age group because even though Juliet may have more and more affordable access to that type of housing across the board in Will County, we're failing. So failing as in an F? Failing as in we're losing our young professionals. We're losing the young people because there's nowhere for them to be.

It's not unusual in suburban environments for that to be the case, right? Young people tend to migrate toward the urban center. The challenge of the last six years has been rates are up nobody's listing their homes home sales are down people are aging in place the homes aren't turning over so these kids that used to leave for a while come back have fewer opportunities to come back there are just fewer homes on market for them to do that and it's It's one of the things that's most concerning to me, demographically, right now. It's not an easy problem to fix. Inventory helps. At some point, it's inventory of everything. We also need semi-affordable ranch homes for seniors to move out of their big homes into and open up those opportunities. It's not a simple fix.

So one of the things that we talked about, I think it was at our last meeting, is over the past 10 to 20 years, we haven't had any senior development in our area. That's critical because we have more people who are aging and they don't have a place to go. And we weren't just talking about affordable or affordability. Any kind. We were just talking about any type of senior development. We haven't had any senior development in the past 20 years, specifically in Joliet. And I don't know if that number is also the same in Will County.

We've seen some other communities build their products, but really 20 years, Joliet?

I think we said 10 to 20. I mean, I can't think of one. that's been developed in the past 20 years. And so in the missing middle, whatever we're looking at for zoning, I don't want us to think that if we include three units in that missing middle that we're including the missing middle. The missing middle doesn't include up to three units. It can be larger units to create that density. So I want to make sure that we are understanding that that missing middle, it had a variety of different housing types.

Bless you. Thanks.

You know, when I drive down Rainier Avenue, I look at something that was well thought out. Banana Joe's is one of the ones at the high density, big dollar. Across from the church, you got a couple of three or four units together, nice little brick units. You got scattered in there two units and three units and single family, and that's a great mix. I understand that what happened from... That huge growth out west was, you know, the fire was burning, so keep pouring gas on single family. There were townhomes built in there. The missing ingredient was rental properties. I mean, that's really where we have the biggest hole out there. They did a good job of mixing some stuff, but there's so much sprawl of single family. We did miss So now we've got to rethink that and everything we do we don't want to get caught in that Whatever is fire is burning today. It's the only thing we're going to do which Doug said it's cyclical building, but we know right now that missing middle is very important Terry it wasn't missed I was there

The city council at that time had no flavor for it. They had no flavor for apartments. And a lot of it, I think, because they had the mindset that not in my neighborhood. But they didn't miss it. They avoided it. And we're paying for it today.

You're right. So we're at an hour. I do want to show you one thing. What parts of the community were good at that? And how did they define good? Well, it was a green map, and you would probably, in Europe, use the grain to make money. And they defined not great, hazardous even, as having some melanin and you made your money with your hands and your back. So we can take this map, this was a real map, this was a policy that was adopted, Just like we're doing here. We're talking about creating houses. The policy of adopting an act. We can lay that over our insurance city. Here's where all those parcels are, right? And here's where all the single family houses still exist. So where do we put our railroads? Where do we put our highway interchanges? Where do we put our factories? Where do we put everything that's kind of gnarly?

In the rail line area.

We can see that. And that policy of saying, this is good, this is what we want, this is not, this is what we want, works. I mean, this is the value per acre right now. In the year of our work, 2026, 24. I just think it's important to remember that what we're doing can have profound effects. This was a bad policy, and it worked. Just imagine the persisting and lasting value and effect of good policy in what we're talking about doing here. It's a tremendous opportunity if we act with a purpose of clarity and the convictions to actually follow through on what I'm hearing you want to do. Because it can work. It does work. So I think that's a good place for me to stop talking. Jane, do you have any closing thoughts on this particular portion of the meeting?

Well, no, I guess not. But before we close, I will run through how we're using this information right now.

I think that's good.

so everyone should have received a notice that states that the presentation was available on our city's comprehensive plan website so just a reminder um presentation is you can watch it. You can watch Joe Minicozzi deliver his presentation if you haven't done so. I encourage you to do that. Then you can also download the slides here. We did email all 1,000 people that are on the city's comprehensive plan listserv. So that email went out via Francisco and then our comprehensive plan email address. Neighborhood leaders of the organizations of The neighborhood councils also received notice saying this presentation was up as well as Planning Commission, Zoning Board, Historic Preservation Commission, and then the Conference of Planning Advisory. And then also city staff also have been notified that this presentation was available and utilizing our city staff as a project champion. So that is here. We also, relating to what we talked about today, we have put under community input opportunities a revised summary of the community workshop number two that took place in February. So here again is where we have the information about the the four different character areas. So we've combined PDFs that we previously had here on hand and made it a little bit more easier for people to look at. So that information is there as well. Topic area workshops also have been, just a summary of that, have been updated. And then at some point in the near future, we'll move the Urban 3 Understand the growth of July information under reports and findings so that's where it will then live once It is not the hottest and latest item that is on the main page here Any questions or suggestions for improvement from an administrative perspective So on urban 3 I think it's great that they're available so like 265 pages on that

urban three presentation is there a way to distill it down to some of the salient points that we've been trying to focus on like the presentation that you just did so that rather than suggesting somebody go look for it in that 265 pages here's a 25 page summary of key things that we're looking at it isn't all comprehensive because there are other supporting things but It's good that it's there. I would raise a question as to how many people will really look at it as opposed to click, click, click, click, and try to rapid fire it.

I think that's a fair suggestion. I think it's a good suggestion. And I think it's our intellectual property now. And we have every right to chop that up. It's how we see fit. And I'd be happy to take a crack at making that a more accessible document for sure.

I'll also add that we have been provided with a draft. They have a report. taking the information, just we haven't been able to look at it yet. It was password protected as of maybe an hour ago. So I have not, Dustin and I have not downloaded it and reviewed it, then there might be some comments back to the consultants. But yes, the final report will be available for the committee to look at in the public.

And so when you look at the three-dimensional footprint and say, here are areas that we're looking at, here are our four target areas, If we are successful, is there a way to put some of that three-dimensional perspective on it? You know? Because that will tell people we're moving in the right direction with these things.

I think that we could probably reverse engineer the graphics portion maybe. I mean, we have a relationship with them. They might be willing to do that. Just, hey, could you adjust this to show...

more intense use because if we put the missing middle in some of those four targeted areas what is the potential impact there if we yeah from a certain degree of success that would be a powerful because I think people will see it as a blank you know a flat piece of

instead of just one purple spire in the middle.

Right. That's a great idea. Show them that we're trying to diversify.

Lift.

I think Joe would do that. If we said, hey, what if we do this, this, and this here, can you tell us what the dynamic would look like?

The benefit to him would be that would be something that he could showcase to other audiences, like, Here's a before and after.

Here are examples of what you can do if you do this. He might pay us for that idea.

Right. One of my takeaways from his presentation was, all right, Juliet, you're in trouble, but you're in good company. Communities all over the United States have tried different things and have discovered over time what's sustainable and what's not. But there is a path to victory here. It was not doom and gloom. It was just like, all right, well, now we know better.

Joliet is like any other community. It's got its really great points, and it's got some challenges. And the challenges are the area that we're focusing on now to make those great as well.

Surmountable challenges.

any other questions comments i just want to comment on folks you have to believe that maybe there is an opportunity because there has been senior housing built in joliet they're building something right now over on brig street the housing authority has built i think two seniors veteran housing i thought that was better no that's their senior housing they're off briggs uh they put in i think 15 or 20 units and they're building more off briggs that would be uh uh south of Route 6. There is new senior housing. They built there in 65 and over, and they're expanding it now.

Okay. I stand corrected.

So it may be an opportunity for us to partner.

There's not very many units for an aging population, so must have more. But good to hear.

Other questions, comments?

Hearing none. I think one thing I want to point out is we look at trajectory there's still 41,000 young folks in this community under the age of 19. That's the most important vision that we have to focus on is helping them stay here. along with the seniors, because when we move a senior out, we got a younger person to move in. But I was amazed when I saw that when I was running for the position. I'm like, wait a minute, a third of our community is under 19 years old? That's huge. So we have a really, really young population that that's a goldmine for us to maintain. Just got to make sure we keep them in mind as well. I mean, little guys like me, I'll find a place to live someday.

Push you out on your ice floe.

But we do need, I look at that little development at Fidey and Nessington Road with all those little three plexes. Great little, you know, 20 acres got 80 people living there. It's kind of cool. And I think we need to look at more of those opportunities. Gentleman City.

Sorry about that, Jim. I didn't mean it. Oh, no. I was trying to get my distance between you. Not there yet.

Don't let the old man in, Jim. Clearly.

Any other questions, comments? Thanks for the input. It's very helpful to have all of the different perspectives. And with that, is there anyone in the public that would like to comment?

Can I make one comment under staff reports before you move on? Sure. Okay. So just a reminder, this is where we are. This is on the screen with the comprehensive planning process. So we are in phase four. We are two-thirds done. We are wrapping up phase four. So what that means is that our consultant firm, right now, they are working on the draft comprehensive plan. So taking information from... all the workshops that have been completed, input from the committee, input from the public. They have looked at the Urban 3 presentation. So they are preparing the draft comprehensive plan. We, being city staff, does expect a draft to be delivered to us within the next two weeks, we'll say. And so staff will then do an internal review, send any comments back to the consultant firm, and they will work on those comments and we are hoping to have the draft available for the committee for the August Comprehensive Plan Advisory Committee meeting, but that may not happen and it may get pushed in September. We just want to make sure everything's done right and thoughtful. So that's what's coming forward. And then with that there will be a final public workshop, or we call it open house, that will take place either in September or October of this year, so that date will be to be determined based on people's availability, including the consultant staff. Any questions about what's coming down the pipe? Okay. So that's it for staff reports.

Great, thank you. thanks for all the work that Dustin and others have done on this because I don't know how you keep it all straight but we appreciate the effort in that regard because it's it's very helpful to see all the different aspects of what we need to think about as we put this plan together to retain those 41,000 under the age of

Any other questions comments from anybody I just wanted to throw it out there that on July 15th the chamber is going to have the Secretary of Transportation present at our luncheon So if you're not receiving our emails and you'd like to attend, just reach out.

Secretary of Transportation for the U.S. or Illinois?

Illinois, sorry. Gia?

Biagi. Biagi. Gia Biagi.

Will she talk about the bridges? We'll see.

We'll be prepared. don't get stuck behind a bridge they were recently assistant secretaries recently out here we took him on a tour of Joliet and all the pain points etc

Good.

Because we have their attention.

July 13th.

15th. 15th. 15th. Where's that at? You know, I think it's at Clarion, but...

It is at Clarion.

We got a table already there, but we should get more. Okay.

Any public comments?

MOTION TO ADJOURN.

MOTION TO ADJOURN. IS THERE A SECOND? THERE IS A SECOND. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR, SIGNIFY BY AYE. AYE. CLOSE, SAME SIGN. MOTION CARRIES. WE STAND ADJOURNED. THANK YOU.