Commissioner - Regular Meeting

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Open Agenda, a podcast created to help connect local residents with their government and give behind-the-scenes look at how things actually work here in Queen Anne's County. I'm Bruce Grove from QAC TV.

And I'm Beth Malaski, Public Information Manager for Queen Anne's County. Through this podcast, we hope to help residents better understand how county government operates, introduce you to the people doing the work, and talk about the issues that affect our community.

Today, we're joined by Amy Mordock, Director of Queen Anne's County Planning and Zoning, and Jody Schultz, a local business owner who has spent years developing multiple projects here in the county. Today, we're talking about development.

And we're excited to bring two different perspectives to the conversation. What does the county see? What does a developer see? Let's find out.

Yeah, time to jump in and get started. I consider this agenda open.

Lights on, mic check. What's happening with QAC Next? Go behind the scenes with Bruce and Beth. The conversation shaping the county's future.

This is the open agenda.

Welcome back to The Open Agenda. Today we have two special guests, and we're going to be talking about something that's near and dear to a lot of people in the community, because it's what they talk about the most, and that's development. And today we're going to talk about navigating development, and we thought it'd be cool to bring in two people from different sides of the coin. So first I'd like to introduce Amy Mordock, our Director of Planning, who is an awesome human being that I've known for a long time. I'm going to throw you under the bus of telling everyone that you're an actress and that we've done shows together. But there's a lot more to you. Amy, tell us a little bit about yourself. Introduce yourself.

So thank you for inviting me here today. I'm looking forward to having this conversation with you. My name is Amy Murdock. I've been the planning director here in Queen Anne's County for about six years. And I've been with the county for seven. I live on the shore. I live in Kent County and I've lived there since 1999. And I've been in the planning field for well over almost 20, I'm getting up to 25 years now. So time flies when you're having fun.

Yeah. How long have you been the director now for Queens County?

About five years.

Five years. Yeah. And then also joining us today, is a a very well-known person in our community a well-known family in our community it's jody schultz a former philadelphia eagle linebacker which you know you don't talk about that much i've noticed over the over the time getting to know you but you like talking about your restaurants and your entrepreneurship and the narrows and the amazing things you do but there's more to you also jody could you introduce yourself yeah i don't really like to talk about much but

I was born and raised on Ken Island. We were just talking about my family. We've been here for, I think, seven generations, my kids. I was fortunate enough to go to college. I was drafted by the Eagles, played five years in Philadelphia, sustained some pretty bad knee injuries, had to retire in 1988, 89, and retired. That's when I really had to come home and then really go to work. So I got back involved with our family restaurants down at Fisherman's Inn. And I started dabbling in real estate and development. I'd buy a lot. I'd subdivide it into two lots and such. So I started doing that probably in 88, 89 when I got back. And, you know, we've got the Fisherman's Inn and the Crab Deck, and we've got the Hyatt Place Hotel next door, the Dock House Restaurant. The Bowtel at Kenton Arrows was mine until, and two partners I had up until then. January, we sold that. I had mixed feelings about selling that, but my partners were ready to sell, so I just agreed to that and been doing development ever since. I feel like we've done some good projects, have a great relationship with Amy and the county, and we all strive for the same thing, and that's really to do good projects in Queen Anne's County. I mean, I'm local. I drive by this stuff every day, and I don't want to see a... a crappy project with my name on it. Do something that we're proud of. It's a legacy to everything that I've done and my family's done. So we really work hard for that. And it's great when you have relationships and can be honest about right up front about, you know, what the rules are. How do we navigate certain things? We disagree on some things. And at the end, we find common ground. And I think the projects that I've been involved with, particularly in Canton Air, are good projects. So that's my story.

I think we're going to learn a lot today about how it takes both sides of work together. And we're going to talk about the speed bumps sometimes that we have to go over. But I think the most important thing to take away, and I know, Jody, you'll agree with this, is if you want things to happen, you have to be involved. And that's why if you go to any planning commission meeting, besides the planning commissioners, Amy and Jody are probably the people at most of the meetings of anyone in our county. But we'll get to all that.

Yeah, and I mean, absolutely. You kind of covered it, Jody. That's why one of the reasons we asked you here is because you've been involved in so many significant projects and involved in the process. And you've worked alongside Amy on all of these projects. And so we just want you guys to kind of walk us through what that looks like and when somebody has an idea for a development.

And it's been a procession of planning directors. Before Amy, there was Mike and... I think Joe Stevens back in the day was a planning director. In the 80s? Oh, was he? I didn't know that. My dad was commissioner back then. He hired Joe Stevens.

Oh, wow.

But there's been a procession of planning directors that have all been really good. And you develop relationships with them. And we're all, I think, after the same thing. They want to see a good project. Yeah. You know, they just they're not here to deny projects or really go out of their way to to make sure you get yours approved. They're here to enforce the rules. Yeah. And at the end of the day, if this project is going to happen, you know, and their names attached to it. Like Mike, the previous planning director, he routinely comes through and he's like, man, this looks good. You know, like I was involved with this and that little thing there. I remember we talked about that little this and that. So, you know, it's a prideful thing, I think, for them as well to be attached with it on good projects.

Absolutely.

So when you begin a project, what does the planning process kind of look like from the developer's perspective?

I wrote something. I don't know. You know, for me, when I look at a project, it's, you know, it's kind of like a puzzle to me. You know, like I try to set the corners of what the project is. But like the Botel as an example, there was a lot of... There was a lot of me just going to the site because it was a derelict, really overgrown, derelict, crappy site when we looked at it. And spent probably six months really just looking at the site. I brought my skid loader down with my bush haul going in, and it took me a day to get to the shoreline because it was so overgrown. There was so much crap on the site. And then I would go by boat. as an example for the boat tail project. And I would go by boat there at nights and during the day and when it rained and when it was sunny and just to try to get a feel for the project. Where's the sun at certain times of the day? How do we want to lay things out? Here's the channel. It needed dredging. So I kind of become, I don't know, just consumed with a project when I really get involved with it. I mean, every aspect of it. Because you could ask my wife, like, I have a little note card by my bed and I wake up in the middle of the night and I think of something and I write it down. But it really starts kind of with that. And I feel like before I go and we engage and sign a contract on a property, in my mind, I'm already 75%. there. Like, I would have talked to the zoning office and, hey, I'm thinking about this off the record, you know, would you guys want to meet and talk about stuff? And they'll say, well, you know, you can't do this, or you might be able to do this, or you can do this. You know, and of course, I'm familiar with the zoning code. And I always jump to the what can't you do's.

Yeah, that's probably...

So I would say, let's talk about the what can't you do's, right? Like, If I wanted to put a gas station in Kettneros, it's not allowed.

I was just thinking of gas station. It's not allowed.

And I would say, well, I really want to do a gas station.

Yeah.

And Jamie's goes, tough. And I go, well, how could I do a gas station? I'd have to get a text amendment. I'd have to do all this, this, and this. And then I would say, you know, the juice just ain't worth the squeeze, you know. Let's set that on the side. But here's some things you can or can't do. And I would verify what we can do and put them on the sideline and focus on what you might be able to do and what you can do, which is more of the easier stuff. But I got to know what you can do. I always try to get that out of the way first. No, this is a no. And forget about it. And I say, okay. Hit the delete button.

But I'd like to hear your thought process. And I know your thought process because you're transparent with it. But that's really valuable to me and to our staff because we know what a big investment development is. We know the land values. We know our role in ensuring that the real property values continue to ameliorate. So we know what it takes to move forward with an investment. And when there isn't a vision that has been thought out to the degree, I don't think everyone thinks their visions out to the degree that you do with night trips to the site and following the sun across. But that's really valuable that you're that intimately involved with the nature of the site and how you see the overall vision. Because a lot of people like to take small bites. And when you do that, sometimes you paint yourself into a corner, not to mix my metaphors. And you end up not being able to fully realize what you want to do. Or if you don't ask the questions about what you can and can't do, especially, then you come into the project with these unrealistic expectations. and that's where a lot of frustration grows with the zoning provisions and with staff and that feeling that staff isn't being helpful okay and um we can only be as helpful as the law will allow us. And we're pretty creative when we know that there's a path that you want to take, and there may be a bump in the road, whether it's a text amendment or... tweak on the use that you're trying to achieve that well if you did it this way you would be able to come in for you know a bonus standard if you're willing to put forward an amenity to get there so yeah that being involved early after you have a firm idea of what you want not to come in and sort of spitball a vision that isn't fully realized, and then we keep starting over, and that causes a lot of delay too. So I think you're sharing your thought process is helpful to people.

Yeah, and that's me. I mean, there's a lot of people that just have ass stuff. I mean, they'll look at a piece of property. I've looked at two or three in the last three or four years, and I'm not going to mention names or where they are, but There was a property on Kent Island that was fairly undeveloped, and I was looking at it, and another guy was looking at it, and he had come in and discussed with the county what he could do, and the county, per him, he said, well, the county said I could take all these trees down. And he had this big building set up in here and this and that, and now they're telling me I can't put the building up. I said... Just because they told you you could take the trees down, they didn't tell you you could put this building here, right? He goes, well, I just thought I could put the building here. I said, why would you want to take the trees down if you can't build on it?

That's just stupid.

But they just don't put two and two together, and they don't take the time to ask the questions and really research. And it's frustrating for these guys. These guys are busy.

Yeah.

You know, right? So they got, oh, Freddie's coming in again for the 10th time, and we're going to waste, they don't say it, but I know what they're thinking.

We're not thinking that.

We're not thinking that, Freddie. Do people typically come in before they've even gotten too deep into the process? I mean, it sounds like it would be a good idea to come in.

It's a really good idea. It happens most of the time, but there are times when we see people make major investments. on properties where they haven't asked the questions. And so you're getting to one of the key points is that there are so many dots to connect. And we understand that there's a huge bureaucratic process and that there are a lot of regulations that people don't think about. You know, like, where does forest conservation fit in? If you want to cut down a bunch of trees and put up a certain type of building, where does parking fit in? And there are just so many pieces of the puzzle that you have to fit onto a piece of property that, like I said before, you might make a huge error in a property purchase based on a presumption that you can do one thing, but there's a ripple effect. And the earlier we can be engaged to kind of bring up any red flags and to just educate about the full scope of all of the requirements that they'll have to face, the better. Because once you've spent the money on a piece of property, you've got that piece of property. And just because there may have been a use on that property 20 years ago doesn't mean that's the use you're going to be able to implement today. And that happens a lot.

We've been seeing that in planning and zoning a lot. That happens a lot. So you're saying we need a little bit more planning than just big dreams. So I think, Chris, we're going to have to do some more work before we build that giant new movie theater at the Narrows we were planning.

Right.

Do you remember what was your first project that you worked on in the county?

I was trying to think of that. I had bought some lots in Harborview, and I think the zoning in Harborview at the time was 8,000 square foot allowed per lot. And these lots were 15,000, 16,000 square feet. So I could buy the lot. At 16,000 square feet and divide it in half so you can get two lots. And I had done two or three of those in Harborview. And most of the lots in Harborview were smaller lots like that. And this is back in the early 90s. And so the community association was all up in arms. How can this be allowed? I said, I don't know. It's allowed. What do you want me to say? And they went through and changed... They made a change. I can't remember what it was. I think they had the zoning changed to then NC-15. It didn't allow that at that point. And that was my first reality of, you know, how... Yeah, this might be harder than I thought. Like, damn. Like, the zoning is what it is. Most of these lots are smaller lots. I just took a big lot and made it, you know...

Into smaller lots.

Into smaller lots like the neighboring lots are. And they had a... But there was a couple of small ones like that. And I think the first really big one I did, I say it was big at the time. To me, it was big. It was in Graysonville in Sawmilling. I bought a piece of property that was a couple acres. And I think we got seven lots out of it. And I thought, man, this is... Roger Weese at the time was a builder. And I wasn't really building. And... I had an agreement with him to build the houses, purchase a lot and build the houses. And then, you know, that's kind of how it started. Yeah. Kind of safe, you know, as before everybody was freaking out about any kind of development. And so it started out small like that.

And then Dock House is your most recent, correct?

Yeah. Probably the armored self-storage is my most recent one, but the dock house. The dock house was all part of the Botel campus, we always called it. It was the dock house, and I think we have another little... 3,000 square foot parcel there that we'll do something with one day.

So were there any lessons that you learned from that first residential to always, let's just say, the dock house that you could pass on to other developers besides just make sure you work together with planning and zoning?

I mean, it's just, I mean, you got to know, you got to know the deal. You got to know the rules. You got to know the people. I had bought a marina in Hampton, Virginia back in... 97, I think it was. And I thought, I'm going to go do some things in Hampton, Virginia. It was the worst mistake of my life because I didn't know anybody in Virginia. I didn't know people in the zoning office. I was totally out of place, and it was a horrible 10-year experience for me down there. So what I learned is you've got to stay in your comfort zone, and you've got to know the rules. Like, you'll see me at planning commission meetings, and people will ask me, do you have a project today? I'll say, no, I just come – Because you hear little things. You get to understand the members of planning commission, what's a hot topic for some of them, what some like, what some don't like. And even though the zoning... may differentiate, you know, you may have a member that likes, I don't know, oak trees or something. And so I'm going to stick some oak trees in there for, you know, just little stuff that just kind of helps.

That's the part I like about watching the planning commission meetings is that a lot of times staff will explain it to the planning commission members or just to the people that are watching. And, you know, some of that stuff can be a little confusing, but when they kind of break it down and explain how it applies to the project and what it means, that's,

It's like TDRs. You don't hear anything about TDRs anymore. That was a hot button back in the day. And once in a while, you'll see a TDR or something come in, and then it's like, what's a TDR?

What is a TDR?

Well, so transfer. Transfer. Transfer of development rights was a way of gaining density and intensifying development in a growth area and pulling those rights from the countryside. So now that when the septic bill went in place where there was a prohibition on major subdivision in the countryside, So we can no longer process a major subdivision in the countryside beyond a seven lot mining subdivision. So that sort of diffused that entire program because you can't pool enough density to make a transfer of those development rights valuable. So we don't see them anymore. And we do have some of them on the books. and their legacy to an older program.

Because me growing up around here, there was neighborhoods everywhere, and none of us were on town water and sewer. We all had septic systems, but you don't see those. You're right. You don't see those big neighborhoods anymore.

Thank you for reminding me to clarify. Those subdivisions that are limited to seven, that's the max that... A subdivision can serve on well and septic. So everything has to be connected to public sewer. That's a major project, which does feed into smart growth initiatives. So it does make sense, but it does limit, seriously limit rural communities.

Which is a lot of what's over here. Right. Yeah. It's unfortunate because it was really a good mechanism to consolidate. And your soils have to be right anyway for that to happen. But they really took a lot of the value of a farmer's value of his land when they did that. It was a hideous thing to do. And all these people that are yapping about how good it was, all live in these farm field subdivisions.

I mean, that's where I grew up. I grew up in Recovery, and it was a farm that had been developed into a neighborhood.

I mean, it's a good mix of both. But now you have to be on, you know. And we all had septic.

We weren't on, you know, we didn't have water and sewer service.

But it just raped the value of a farmer's land because if he had good soils and he wanted to do some lots, he had that ability. Or he could sell his development rights to someone who was going to do that, preserve his land. Because once you sell your development rights, you can't develop your farm. There was thousands of acres preserved like that.

Yep. Well, and we kind of talked about like the beginning when somebody first comes into the office and talks to you. Hopefully they come in before they've made a big investment.

Well, now they will because they've listened to the podcast. Yes, yes. They should.

Well, and the other thing that I notice when I go to the meetings and things like that, that it's not just your staff that's involved in the process. So what are some of the other departments that get involved and are part of this whole process?

So there are the usual suspects who are involved in almost every project. And that, of course, is the planning and zoning staff. It's often the Department of Public Works staff. And that Department of Public Works encompasses a lot of different engineers who review for roads, for stormwater management. There's a sediment control review that happens through the Soil Conservation District. There's water and wastewater. So we work very closely with our colleagues in DPW. Environmental health is often involved. Oh, from the health department. Yeah, so the health department is involved if there's a well and septic aspect to the project, but also if it's a commercial operation where there's food service or public restrooms and things along those lines where various staff members of environmental health need to be at the table Depending on where a project is cited, we can be working with State Highway as well as our county roads counterparts. MDE can be involved through a lot of aspects of a review. I won't speak in acronyms. Maryland Department of the Environment and State Highway Administration, when I said SHA. But there are times when there's a project where our finance department may need to be engaged or the Canton Air's Development Foundation or the airport manager at the Bay Bridge Airport. So our 911 addressing has to be pulled in. So that's why kind of coming in early and we know who to pull in, who to pull to the table is really dependent upon... what kind of development a property owner wants to pursue.

So when someone actually comes in, does it get, like, sectioned off to one person planning to kind of run that project? Like, does Rob Gunther sit on one project and he takes it to everyone? Yeah.

Yep, we do. So we have five planners on staff. Three of those planners manage all development review, and Rob Gunther oversees that. And we also have Steve Johnson and Doug Summers. And they... share the workload and cover those projects. And we do act a lot like a clearinghouse. It's a good point. Well, we do. We're kind of managing a project, but also making sure that all those connections are being made. And I need to also mention our long-range planners. Stephanie Jones heads up that division. We have Mary Ellen Gray on staff as well. And they'll look at aspects of development review as well. But yes, the development review planners will try to make sure that all of the agencies are engaged, getting their comments in on time, because we have clocks that set once a project is officially submitted. And we all have, I think as planners, we all have varying degrees of OCD and do not like to miss deadlines because we have advertising requirements and we have legal standards that we have to maintain. So we're very on top of that clearinghouse aspect of what we do in addition to the actual project review for all the zoning requirements.

And you talk about how the whole county almost has to come together for the most part to really make something happen. But how much of the process is driven by county regulations and how much is by state or federal? Because there could be some hiccups there, right?

There are hiccups there. So our local zoning is, you know, is empowered. and required through the annotated code land use article and that outlines the fact that every local jurisdiction has to the commissioners have to appoint a board of appeals a planning commission we have to have a comprehensive plan and there are rules for how we have to update that plan and how all of the other county regulations and policy documents have to be in sync with that comprehensive plan. So if it's the water and sewer plan, if it's the solid waste management plan, if it's the roads manual, and then of course our land use ordinance that all is guided by that comprehensive plan. So the land use article then addresses how that consistency has to work and then what has to be in our local zoning. Our zoning really sets uses by district. So what is a permitted use? What is a conditional use? And what are the design standards? And what are the bulk standards, which is how tall can a building be? What are the setbacks? How much area can you take up with what's called floor area and impervious surface? So what does the bulk of that property look like? How big can those buildings be? How close can they be to the property lines? And what should they look like so that the character of the community is consistent with what the community told us that it wants? And so that's all very real. However, that's where our authority sits. And how we do that and aspects of what that review looks like is largely based at this point in our state by what state regulations limit us to do and often tell us to do at this point, because there have been so many pieces of preemptive legislation that even some of our uses are dictated by the state. And a really good recent example is the whole evolution of medical cannabis and recreational cannabis. Local jurisdictions wanted to regulate how that was going to look in their communities. And over several legislative sessions, we were told we couldn't do that. So there have been impacts to how the state sees land use in our local codes. But to go back to your original question, things like floodplain management is set at the federal level and then at the state level. We have a lot of floodplain, which makes our county very attractive and also very challenging, our proximity to the water and local impacts to where we're seeing higher tides. So there's a lot of complication that comes with floodplain management.

We did a whole episode on that. I was going to say we did.

We totally credited. Also, we talked about how important planning and zoning was when we look at some of our more historical neighborhoods before we had planning and zoning and the issues that we have on the island specifically with flooding.

And our floodplain management crew, you know, John Kling is our floodplain manager, and he's one of the engineers at DPW. And, you know, Lee Edgar, who heads up the engineers. I mean, we work really closely together, and they do a wonderful job. And we are often trying to come up to speed with historic development and make sure that current development is meeting and exceeding standards so that the next generation doesn't look back at us and say, what did you do? But yeah, so beyond, you know, stormwater management is... 100% regulated by the state. Even our water and sewer plant, which is locally operated, is completely dictated through EPA total maximum daily load limitations and the MDE license that is issued to the county. So in most ways, and even now with housing standards, A lot of what we do is we implement our code, but we implement our code and development review largely through the lens of state initiatives.

So this wasn't on our docket, so I'm going to throw you a curveball. We just heard how the weight falls from state and federal. Does any of that happen for you as a developer?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So what hardships do you face that way?

Oh, don't ask.

Okay. Is that a whole other podcast?

It is.

We'll circle back.

That'll be the after show. Trying to keep my language to an acceptable level. You know, the critical area is anything within 1,000 feet of tidal waters, pretty much. And then there's three designations of critical area. RCA, resource conservation area, which is pretty much green if it's... You can't touch. You're allowed but one lot in 20 acres if you can. And there's a bunch of rules for that. LDA is limited development area. You're allowed... It's a 15% impervious cover, I think. A lot of coverage. Yeah, it's better.

So more limited than this? Yeah.

And then IDA is intensely developed area. So the Kenton Arrows, as an example, is IDA. Okay. So it pretty much allows 100% impervious cover, and it's more friendly because I think when the powers-to-be implemented into critical area regs in, what, 88?

In the mid-'80s, the legislation began.

Yeah, yeah. And they said, well, these heavily developed areas, Baltimore, Harbor and all that, and there's a ton of places where there's development right on the water. We've got to be somewhat friendly because most of it's existing, and we've got to allow some stuff.

And balance tourism. Yeah, I mean, we're... And you're right, that's what they did. The original mapping took into account, well, okay, what's existing?

Right.

And how are we going to basically create legal nonconformity under the new law? So all those waterfront communities that you see, you know, downtown Baltimore, Annapolis, the Narrows, those all got IDA designations, and there was... There was a threshold for a lot size and how much it was already developed. And it got that intense development category. But with that category does come additional environmental requirements because there is a... water quality improvement plan, which is called the 10% rule, that you have to go 10% above what you would have treated under a traditional plan. So to get that complete coverage of a lot, you still have to rein that in through engineering and address your engineering. So it's not a total... carte blanche, but I didn't mean to interrupt you.

No, you're way smarter. I know just enough to know where the holes are, you know, where the potholes are. So Kenton Air is IDA. And a lot of this stuff, when people complain about it, you know, when they're doing a development in the critical area, and what I said, critical areas is within 1,000 feet of the water. And that covers... A lot of Kent Island, you know, it's a quarter mile almost from the water. So it covers a lot. So when people say, oh, you know, I went through and met all the county rigs and now they want this. I said, well, you're in the critical area. Did you not know that? I mean, you can see the water from your lot. I mean, you know, you're, oh, I didn't know that. And it's all part of understanding and knowing. kind of the deal before you go in. You just can't assume these things. And the state, and I know there's a lot of frustration at times on the county level with the state rules. And I'm not saying who does or doesn't or what they do or don't, but there's a lot of, I think, And, you know, because one size doesn't fit all. What's good in Queen Anne's County might not be good in Anne Arundel County or Wicomico or Dorchester or Somerset. But those critical area laws are all statewide, and you all got to – everybody's got to play by the same rules. So there's a lot of frustration with the critical area if you want – to upgrade your property from, you know, LDA to IDA. There's a process to go through it through the critical area commission. And, I mean, it's not for the faint of heart to do that, but there are processes. The county's great to support it if they support a project. Fortunately, everything I've done in Kent Marrows has been already the IDA critical area designation.

It all fits within.

You kind of, you know, like, damn. Yeah. We don't even have to open that door because we – now, there's some elevation and there's some floodplain things, and LIMWA is a line, a designation of a line that's – Limited wave action. Limited wave action, LIMWA they call it. So if you're – What does that mean? No. You want to take that?

We're in the weeds of learning about playing and zoning out.

There's all these rules, as my point is, there's all these rules that you really don't know about until they hit you in the face. And people might not be aware of this Limwa line that cuts through a lot of the south side of the Kenton Harris property because of the long southern fetch. The state has said, oh, you're going to get, if you're on this, these are my words, if you're on this side of the line, you're going to get hammered in a flood. But you move two inches on the other side of the line and you're going to be fine. That's how ridiculous I think some of this stuff is. But there's just a host of these rules. And most of it gets back to having, when you asked me, what's important is having a good engineer.

Yeah.

You've got to put a good team together. And I feel like the team that I've put together over the years with our engineering, our legal, and everybody that knows me and knows how crazy I am about knowing stuff and our submittals have to be right. And when we submit something, I don't want to see the staff report come back and say, repeat comment. Like we told you this last time. And I say, I'm not paying you to not address that. Why is that spelled wrong? It's just these little things that they take time because they have to address all this. And I know that when they see a crappy report come in or a development or a resubmittal, they go, oh.

Not again.

I'm sticking this at the bottom and I'm going to get to it. I want mine on top because they know it's been.

We don't put.

Just to be clear. And you keep. I mean, one thing that keeps coming up is to make sure you're educated and you understand the rules before you even start the process and to start early before you even have really invest, you know, to really get to get to know everything. But you're so knowledgeable. How did you learn about all this stuff? Are there resources available? How does someone get educated on all these things?

Well, you go to the planning commission meetings, read. I mean, all this stuff's online, and you've got to be in the game. I mean, I've got a sports background, so everything when I talk about— projects and stuff, and we meet, even with, when we're at the crab deck or fishermen's and talk, I'm always relating to sports. Like, you're either on the first team, and if you're screwing up, you're gonna go sit on the bench for a while. You may get traded. You know what I mean? Time out, let's huddle up. You know, there's the goal line. And everybody understands what those things mean. But I think it's just you just got to – when you're doing something, you got to know what you're doing. It doesn't matter what it is. You know what I mean? Like if you want to be a mechanic, you got to be a – like learn how to be a mechanic. Or if you want to be a plumber, learn how to be a good plumber. Or if you want to be a ball player, learn how to be a – you know, learn the rules. And it just took a lot of time. I remember the first kind of – eye-opening experience I had was when I was working with an engineer and I was working on a project and I'd say, we've got to get this in. Why haven't you submitted this? And I'd get all these reasons why and I'd say, well, we missed the submittal deadline. And I'd go... what the hell is that? Submittal deadline. And I could tell he didn't want to tell me because he was using that as an excuse.

He didn't know you had done your research.

Well, I did it then because I got on there, Googled, and there was a whole submittal deadline. So if you want to get on planning commission or if you have a project that you're going to submit first time, and I got a project and we got it all ready, and there's a – for stack, stack is –

The Staff Technical Advisory Committee. That's that group of partners that I mentioned. So that's before it ever hits the Planning Commission. Yes. Way before. That's where you're knocking out all of those things of like that, okay, you definitely can't do that. That's your technical review where it's between the developer and staff. The public is invited. All of our meetings are open, but it's not a public meeting.

They can't make comments.

Yeah, they're not commenting. This is really the technical meeting. It's a working meeting. Yeah, to help the developer. to make sure that they understand all the regs, how they're fitting together, where the mistakes are, where the project is really hitting the mark. It's like, oh, this is really great. Don't change this. So yeah, those technical meetings are really important. And when, as Jody mentioned, when staff like I said there's a clock that ticks when those projects come in and all of the county agencies and state agencies who are involved in that project review they take a lot of time and submit those comments and then we meet to talk about the comments so that we're not costing the developer extra time and money because we want it to move forward to the next phase as soon as possible Despite any thoughts to the contrary, we do try to expedite everything that we can. And it really is dependent upon reacting positively to those comments and reacting to them. So if we have to continually, when the next submittal comes in, look at that project compared to the last review and say, oh, he didn't address 10 of the 20 comments that we made.

For the third time.

For the third time.

I think Jody may have seen this before. Yeah.

But it is a problem because our staff is available. So once the comments go out and the meeting is held, If the consultants have follow-up questions, if they disagree, we're going to answer those questions because we're civil servants. We're all planning professionals, and we really have a great staff who really loves what they do, but we all live here. We all live on the shore. We all live in the community, and we're all vested in the success of the projects, and we take our roles as civil servants first. very seriously. It's an ethos that we all share. So, yeah, we don't want to see repeat comments.

Well, what I like to do is, like I say, this project, I want to be at the Planning Commission for approval At the December Planning Commission meeting, as an example.

And then you've got to work backwards.

And then I work backwards. Because to get at the December Planning Commission meeting, my 25-day submittal's got to be in, because the Planning Commission meets the second Thursday of every month. So 25 days prior to that is the 25-day submittal for the Planning Commission. So I mark that on my calendar. And then I'm going to go through some, depending on if I need preliminary or final approval. And then you back it up to stacks. And I have the dates. Here's a stack. So I'm starting in maybe March or February. So prior to me knowing that, back years ago, my engineers, some of them at the time, were, you know, I said, how did we miss, why am I waiting another month? Because you didn't cross the tier.

Not everyone does that. And even when you do that, you're not always successful because you miss a submittal or things don't go as planned.

I don't know. I'm pretty anal about that.

I know you're on top of your staff.

People that don't know that, they go, well, you know, we missed a submittal. And I'm like, oh, well, we'll get on there next month. Well, to me, it's unacceptable.

But usually people don't do that. Usually someone has an idea in mind, like I'm going to be on the December agenda, but I submitted in October. And so then they get very frustrated. It's like, well, you're keeping me from the planning commission meeting. And I've got all these investors, and I said, well, you need to look at the timeline, and we're going to do it as quickly as possible, but you have to have a realistic expectation because there are legal requirements because due notice is very important because we're talking a lot about... how do we facilitate the development process for the developer? But a part of the development process is public input to make sure that we're transparent, that we're being consistent with the comprehensive plan. So a very important part of the process is that planning commission is meant to make sure everything is compliant, but it's also to hear public input if there is an issue that hasn't been addressed that's a more localized issue that the developer may not know about. Hopefully they do, because they've talked to the community before they started. But if not, and if there's a safety issue, if there's an issue with one of the roads that is more anecdotal than is something that is documented through the roads department, through our dpw or through state highway that's where the the democratic process takes us and it's a it's a key part of the process so we're beholden to the projects and the economic development attached to this projects but we're also dedicated to the property values of everyone around those projects too you know the comments i hate to hear like when we started the hotel like oh god you know who'd you pay off

To get that, I'm like, what? Like, I'm in 12 years. That was a 12-year project. They don't understand the process of, like... 12 years. I said, I had hair and parents when I started that project. And I had neither when we put a shovel in the ground. So it just... And I said, if I'm paying people off, how much? Like, it'd be a whole lot easier to pay somebody off. Than to go through all of this. It just don't work like that because there's no one person. There's no king that you can pay off and say, we're going to... It just doesn't work like that.

There isn't. But I've heard about this. I've heard about this.

I've heard about them.

Well, let's talk about the hotel.

Yeah.

Talk about projects. Can you tell us about the Hyatt Hotel?

Well, it's probably 15, 16 years ago from today that I started that project. And we had went through an approval process, and I had a hotel approved. I think the first one took me about six years to get approved. And then we were having trouble with, you know, there was no money available for hospitality at the time. My dad had passed, was getting sick, and we were trying to do some things internally and was affecting how we were going to set things up. And the hotel just wasn't working the way we had designed it. So we went back and redesigned everything about it. We went from 90 rooms to 120 rooms, reduced our ballroom a little bit, had a much better footprint. And actually, I had two projects approved for that site. At the end of the day, I don't think there's ever been two projects approved for the same site.

Oh, wow.

It wasn't intentional.

But not a hotel.

Any project.

But I mean, it wasn't going to be a hotel.

It was going to be a hotel, yeah. But different. But a different, smaller hotel, bigger ballrooms, and we just didn't see... We had ground-level parking, and that was presenting a problem. The cost for ground-level parking, having to elevate the whole structure, was just insane. So we just went back and kind of started over from scratch. But at the end of the day... And I remember Chris Drummond at a planning commission meeting when we were going for our approval said, you know, this is going to be two projects approved for the same site. And I said, well, there's nothing legal about that, is it? And he's like, you know, Chris was very, very smart. We really miss him as a planning commission attorney. And he's like, no, no, it's just highly unusual. I don't think we've ever had two projects of this magnitude approved for one site. So you could really do either one. But you've got to pick one, you know. But it was very challenging with a lot of the things we had mentioned before, that limo line, the critical area, the elevations, how we had to build the structure and the foundation. One had to be separate from the other. I mean, it really doesn't make sense when you dive into the nitty-gritty of the foundation wall had to be separate from the main wall of the hotel in case the storm of the world came through and knocked down one wall, it wouldn't knock the whole hotel down. That's kind of how these rules, I think, are implemented. It doesn't make sense. We had to have breakaway concrete. I mean, it was just ridiculous considering we just had one of the worst floods ever with Isabel. Yeah. And all we did was just kind of flooded the parking lot. They really didn't have any major, I mean, we're not Key West, you know, we're not on the coast of, of, uh, Florida. And, um, anyway, um, but it was a 12 year project and it was, it was, uh, I don't think anybody thought I'd ever get to the point where it would be open. Um, But it was just challenging financially. Some of the zoning, not really zoning challenges, but some of the critical area stuff we had to do. But, you know, and my dad passed away, you know, right before we got started. And that kind of threw a whirlwind in us as a family. And, you know, some of my siblings weren't really a fan of being involved with the hotel. So I had to regroup on that. I brought in another partner. And, you know, right now it's successful. It's a great amenity to Kenton Arrows. It brings, you know, people here. But, you know, we had to hear all the crap. You know, somebody, oh, you're blocking the view of the water when I drive by. You know, and all that.

Well, you're supposed to be watching the road, aren't you, when you're driving?

But it's all these things that people think they have a right to have. You know, like you're putting up this big hotel. I mean, what about the jobs we're going to provide? A hundred people we employ. The hotel tax. And all these associated taxes, people coming here, they're going to your shop, they're buying stuff, they're going other places to eat. And it's bringing these people to Queen Anne's County, you know, spend their money and then they go home. It's, you know, it's been, I think, very successful.

But I want to talk about that height and talk about the Waterfront Village Center. The WVC district is specific to the Kent Narrows. And so the Kent Narrows zoning is really directly connected to the fact that there's a special taxing district that supports economic development and tourism in the Narrows. So as a result... The Kent Narrows is one of the only spots in the county. Well, it is the only spot in the county where there are these bonus standards. And to Jody's point, nothing is hidden. So when people do complain about height and about blocking views, That review is baked into the public process where there is a bonus provision to get more floor area, so to have a bigger project, and to have a taller project with more bulk if you meet certain bonus provisions. And so that is a part of an option within the village district, and Jody takes full advantage of it because he knows what the standards are.

Sure.

But like I said, it is a transparent process. And the Planning Commission has to vote on bonuses. And bonuses come through amenities that are provided for the economic development purposes of the community through that special taxing district. So if a developer, like with Jody's, with a hotel project, and he asked for an additional floor area, and he asked for a height increase, To get those bonuses approved, he had to pro-offer something to the Planning Commission, and that also had to be reviewed by the Kent Narrows Development Foundation. And so what he ended up having to do was providing amenities for the public, which included, and I'll list them, extending the Cross Island Trail with additional links, including lighting and trails and a boardwalk. had to add benches and trash receptacles along the boardwalk, but he also had to make a monetary contribution that would be designated for open space improvements to public land. And that contribution was nearly $38,000. So it's not a payoff. All of these amenities are meant to function in exactly the way the WVC purpose was meant to function in connection with that special taxing district. So to get the size of a project where it is such a big economic engine there's a trade-off because you have to provide some commensurate amenities for the community that will make sure that there are pedestrian connections through the development and additional amenities.

So I guess as a developer, you get to be out there, you get to see it. Do a lot of people take advantage of it?

Well... These amenities she's talking about, I mean, they are in the code. My personal opinion is the amenity is the hotel. There's over $100,000 a year we pay in room tax. We provide jobs and all this stuff. I think some of that stuff, and it's in the code, and we play by the rules, but I just think it's extra noise that is not really necessary. So I don't agree with that because I think you're getting enough – um enough out of it you know just for the project itself sure but you know improving the trails that helps everybody you know i mean i didn't have a lot of heartache with it because again i knew it was a requirement yeah so i can't i'm not gonna bitch about it because i'm i know it's in the deal deals like that's the thing it's 10 yards to a first down so it's in the code you have to do it yeah i'm not gonna complain about it because it is what it is but You know, the other thing we had the ability to do in Kenton Arrows is there's the ability to share floor area from other parcels. So we had some other parcels down there that we weren't using all the floor area. So if you have common ownership or... It's part of a unified development. You can take the floor. Like I've got a project here and I've got 10,000 square feet of floor that I don't need. I can pick that up and put it on the hotel. Oh, wow.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, I've never heard of that. WVC is the only, I think it's the only one. At the time, I wasn't 100% aware of that. And I don't know if it was Rob or somebody in the zoning office said, you know, you can fear your floor area. I said, right, right.

How did I miss that?

I don't know how I missed that, but okay, tell me about that. And he told me, and it was like, that's, that's, and it makes sense because, you know, in general, you're allowed to use so much floor area. And if you don't use it, you should be able, but. Any development that you do is always the deciding factor on what size building you can do and the uses is always determined by parking. Always.

Especially in the Narrows.

Rarely do you exceed your floor area. Rarely. Unless you're doing a hotel, a big building that's tall and everything's jammed into one. I think the hotel was 83,000 square feet or something like that. Four floors. But most developments, if you look at them, don't come near to using their allowable floor area. It's the parking that always gets you. And we make sure we have enough parking. We've got a ton of parking that we need. A lot of places don't, unfortunately. But parking's a big thing. Because if people can't park and go in your business, You know, why have your business? And there's a lot of Kenton errors that has some problems with parking. I think the commissioners over the years have talked about a parking garage and trying to improve that. I know it's been a line item in the budget for years. Hopefully they'll acknowledge that. And the immense amount of money and jobs and, you know, Kenton errors, you know, brings to the county. We need some help with parking and connecting some of the trails internally there. You know, as an example, if you're leaving the Jetty or Bridges area and you want to walk to the Best Western or anywhere else, there's no clear path to that. You're kind of taking your life in your hands, especially late at night when a lot of those travelers are in that area. There's still some improvements we need to hopefully have done. But, you know, there's state roads through there, so... You know, I don't know how much the county has a lot of say on the state roads. And with traffic, everybody thinks we're going to fix traffic. You know, well, good luck. It's a state road. Yeah. You know, and all they're doing is cut money that they're sending for state projects. Yeah.

The lesson that we learn every time we do one of these is that we need to do a second episode because there's so much that we didn't have a chance to cover.

Because we didn't even talk about the Botel.

Yeah, we didn't. There's a lot of stuff. I do want to say, at least if we can just for a quick 30 seconds or a minute talk about the Botel because it feels like a disservice to people that are listening that I bet you they expected us to bring it up. So could you talk to us about the Botel project? The hardships or maybe not the hardships of that project.

The Bowtel project, my partner, my initial partner, Rob Marsh, and I, we talked about the need for a Bowtel type of project. And Rob was adamant about it. I was on board with it. And Rob said, you got to find us some property. And I immediately knew it's at what we call the Cadwell property. Mr. Cadwell owned that property back in the day. And I said, it's at Cadwell property. He goes, what? And it was overgrown. It was one of those properties that if you rode by on the highway, you just saw a bunch of frag and scrub trees and crap. And you didn't really notice what it was, but it was just that property beside the boat ramp. And I said, that's it. And he said, what? And I took him on my boat. We rode around. He goes, oh, this property sucks. And I said, just look at this. We're going to redo the shoreline. It had filled in the channel at Pining Arrows. We're going to dredge this out, reestablish the shoreline. And, you know, we're going to put a restaurant out here. We're going to put the boat tail here. And he's like, all right, let's do it.

We're going to get a text amendment.

Oh, for the boat tail?

Yeah, for the Rathaminium.

Yeah.

Wasn't it a conditional use at the time? You made it one.

I made it a conditional use.

Yeah, through the process.

Because, you know, there was a boattail approved for that property, which we didn't know years ago, like 20 or 30 years prior to that.

And they just never built it.

They just never built it. I don't know whether he got a final approval for it, but we found the old records where he had kind of where the boat ramp is now.

Okay.

That was the lift area. Wow. And it was shocking when we uncovered some of these old documents. Anyway, we made it a conditional use, which was easier. Then we had to go through the conditional use process, which we did. And God, it was so much back then. And Mr. Cadwell... I think at the time they had a 34-unit townhouse project approved on that site that nobody liked. Everybody hated it. And he couldn't get anyone to partner up with him or buy it because, you know, the things we had heard was the noise of traffic on the road. They didn't want the residential units there and everything. Anyway, I had negotiated with Mr. Cadwell for a year or more. And at that point, even before then, I was 75% sure we were going to be able to do what we wanted to do, maybe 80% sure, because we had met with the county and they were on board with it. And all these, other than getting the permits from MDE, the dredging permits and all these fill permits and stuff we had to get, I just felt like we were going to be able to get it done, partly because it was such a crappy piece of property that needed to be... developed and cleaned up and it needed to establish the channel for piney narrows and things we were doing to clean the channel up we just felt like it was it was going to be good so mr cadwell was a little tough to negotiate with and finally we had sent him a contract and i called him on a friday like at four o'clock and i said mr cadwell and it was all this music in the background I said, Mr. Cadwell, he said, you know, hey, Jody, what's up? I said, we sent you a contract for the property. Just wondering where you are with that. You know, you feeling good enough to let us sign it and we're going to give them a non-refundable deposit, which I think he thought... He was going to be able to, and he says, no way these guys are going to get this thing approved. He said, you know what? Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. I said, where are you? He was at happy hour. I said, all right. So I hung up. I called Rob and I said, Mr. Cadwell agreed to it, but he's at happy hour. And I got to call him Monday and make sure he remembers. I called him Friday. So I called him Monday, and he said, yeah, Jody, I know. I'm going to sign it, and I'll send it overnight back to you. And he did, and then we started the process. But it was... It was probably a two-year process, maybe longer, and then a year to build. And we had the whole thing approved originally, one big building. And then Rob and I said, you know what, because there had been no boat tail in the area, and we were a little unsure how successful it was going to be. And I said, let's just do half of it. Let's build half. We'll go back and get approval for doing half of it. And let's just see. If it doesn't work, it's only half a screw-up. It's not a whole screw-up. And we've still got the rest of the property to do something with. The property is certainly worth what we paid for it. So we built half, and we filled it up pretty quick. And then we thought, did we just get all the low-hanging fruit? You know what I mean? Did we fill it up quick just because the demand was there for that? Now we've got to say, do we're going to have to do the other half? That was the more gut-wrenching part. And so we did, we redesigned the other half because we wanted to make it more of a campus. So we added the commercial units on the other side. That's the part I like.

I mean, the rack ammonium is really neat. Yeah. But what I like about this project is the mixed-use component. And not just that it's a mixed-use project, but that it's really successful.

Yeah.

Because we so often hear, well, commercial isn't working, retail isn't working. Well, it seems to work if you make it an attractive amenity altogether, which is a part of, I think, where that full campus view comes into play.

It's kind of funny because we, and I want to ask you about this, but we talked about maybe the hardship blowback you might get from community because they talk about the view when they're crossing the narrows. But what I was telling you before we even started was we just took the drone out and we're taking photos and videos. And when you see the dock house and the boat tail right on the water with all the stores beneath, it looks beautiful from the water view. It's amazing looking. But back to the hardship question, was the boat tail the biggest blowback you ever got?

Everything's a blowback, it seems like at times. And it's different blowbacks, you know, like you're taking the view or you're developing this piece of property that shouldn't be developed. And the community there was against, some of the Piney and Aries people were against it. that. And I said, you know, it's like making sausage. It ain't pretty. Wait till it's done. Wait till everything's done. It's a plan here. You know, I said, at the end of the day, you're going to be coming over here in the ship store and you're going to be buying your beer. You're going to be going to that restaurant whenever we get it done. And you're going to be eating at the restaurant. You can walk. You're going to be able to take your little golf cart. You know, we'll let you have access to the gate if you want. And just think about how nice that's going to be. And you're worrying about you know you can't even see the building from you some of these people can't even see the building from their boat the channel is going to be dredged you're going to have a nice channel through here and you might be able to you might want to put a smaller boat that you have right in it so we were very specific about the commercial like i wanted a spa there because kenton airs really doesn't have a spa so we got swan cove down there and i said i want an ice cream shop because everybody likes ice cream right i went there the other day yeah Yeah. So we got sugar doodles in there. And then I said, I want a gift shop. I want people to be able to buy local stuff. Because at the hotel, people are always asking, where can I go buy a T-shirt? Where can I buy a mug? Where can I buy something? So we've got Ken Island Jewelry and their gift shop there next to it. And then we had a realtor. We let them come in because we felt like the traffic that they would bring in. And then there was a bridal shop in there, which I didn't know whether... how that was going to work out. But it's worked out well because the girls that come in and buy a bridal dress, well, the game's different now. Like when my wife went bridal dress shopping, the girls went.

Yeah.

Like I ain't going. You all go. Now the guys and the girls go. So the guys will go over to the dock house. and sit at the bar and the girls will go do the dress thing. And then when they're done, they'll go over to the dock house and join the guys. And that's been a good relationship that we have with them, you know, that was really unexpected.

um and that's the nerdy planning place making that we like to see happen i mean that's the puzzle came together that's the whole point of mixed use development and that's you know with projects like that and you get to see well this is why there's planning this is why these steps are in place is you want people to have walkable experiences and localized experiences

Well, we've come to the end of our journey. Usually we like to spend some time having a little bit of fun. So I just want to allow me and Beth one question each. And I have mine. And then I'll let you fire away, Beth. Is that cool?

Okay.

All right, Jody. If you could only eat at one place at the Narrows, where would it be? Oh, if I could eat at one place.

God. Oh, man. You didn't, I didn't get that. Oh, that wasn't on the paper, no.

Oh, you know the answer. It's, no, that's not on the narrative. I was going to say, it's Chick-fil-A.

Chick-fil-A. I don't know. If it's crabs, it's the crab deck. If it's prime rib, it's Fisherman's Inn. What do I like at the dock house? The burgers at the dock house are phenomenal. The drinks are great.

Brussels sprouts. Brussels sprouts, yeah.

And Big Al's got great crab cakes down there. So it depends on really what I'm in the mood for. But, I mean, I go to all the places. I go to Bridges. I like bridges. I go to the Narrows. I go to the Jetty, not as much as I used to. But I don't know whether I have a – I really don't like to go to my places down there because – and my wife hates it when we go there because I never get away. Like, we'll be sitting there, and she goes, no work. No work.

Right.

And I'm sitting there, you know, and I see a customer over here that's looking around for their waitress, or I see a bunch of crap on the floor over here.

So you can't even enjoy your own time.

I can't. Or somebody, typically somebody will come up and want to talk about stuff, you know, the hotel or, you know, what's going on with this and that, which I don't mind it. But my wife, she's like, that was fun. You know, that was fun. I said, well, we got to go. You know, maybe we'll go to Chick-fil-A next time. Yeah. Or car mines or somewhere, you know.

You dodged that one good. I won't ask you the same question, Amy, because we're not allowed to say our favorites about anything in the county. But, Beth, do you have a good question?

So neither one of you sound like you have any spare time at all. So each one of you, if you do have any spare time, what's something that you like to do, not development-related, not work-related, that you like to do for fun in your spare time?

In my spare time, I'm out running, biking, swimming when I can. And my husband and I are also, well, we're both avid cyclists, so we do most of this stuff together. But we also are big Trekkies, so we watch a lot of Star Trek. And I'm an avid reader. And for as long as I've worked in the planning field, I've stopped reading books. more technical books, so I spend a lot of my time reading fantasy novels just to clear my head of regulatory stuff.

If it's a vampire or anything like that, I mean, that's totally my, it's got to be total fantasy.

I do a lot of flying with dragons myself.

I'm blown away right now. I know Chris is in the booth screaming in his head, you didn't even say anything about horror.

I am a horror film junkie. I admit it.

What did you say it was? Horror films. She loves horror films. I do.

I love horror films. And like with your wife being frustrated, I say to my husband, oh, this is coming out. No, not another one. Enough is enough.

He's not as much of a fan as you are.

He likes some of them, but I'll watch just about all of them. I'll find something good about all of them.

I don't want to have the crap scared out of me.

It's complete diversion from the reality of what you do every day.

It's a different horror. It's a different horror.

Sometimes you just have to... Sometimes you just have to sit back in the Overlook Hotel for a couple hours.

I mean, my hobby is work, and I hate to say that, but what I do like, I like to boat. I don't like to fish because that's like working. But I love to boat, and hunting is probably my big thing, waterfowl hunting. We only get a few months of that. That and really anything with my kids, I try to. Of course, they're at an age now they're doing their own thing. It's harder to corral them up. I have four boys, and it's harder to get them together. You know, my wife and I, we try to go places in the boat. And again, you know, she's like, well, we're going to Chesapeake Beach or wherever, you know. She goes, why are we going to Chesapeake Beach? Did they build something new there? Like she's like, is this going to be work or really fun? You're scouting, aren't you? It's always work. You just can't help it. You go in a restaurant and you see something like whatever. And that's pretty cool. That's good. Why are they doing that? Yeah. Maybe there's a new building or something, especially on the waterfront. This is a cool area.

You want to check it out and see what they did? Yeah.

Fisherman's Inn, we'll be there in a few years. We'll be there 100 years. Oh, my gosh. That's awesome. Yeah. 1930, my grandfather started Fisherman's Inn on the same property.

How long has the train been there?

The train, well, it's a new train in there now. We just redid the train. So the train's been in there since, I don't know, my dad would go to Florida in the off season and we would all hold our breath. Like he's going to come back, like he's going to see something.

With an idea.

So he did what you do now. So he came back and he goes, we're going to put a train up on a ceiling. And we're like, what? Like a train? He goes, yeah, this, whatever gauge train it is, we're going to put a train up on a ceiling. And us three, my brothers, we were like, let's just don't say nothing for a couple weeks. Maybe he'll forget about it. Every week he's like, where's this goddamn train? We've got to do this train. Where's this train? And we put it up and it's become a... a staple of Fisherman's Inn, and people would just get frustrated. When that train's not running, and we took it down because we just redid the whole dining room, new booze carpet, the whole dining room, and we replaced the train because it had been up there for so long. People were just...

They were upset. Angry.

They weren't upset. They were angry. Like, we're not coming back until the train's back up.

I remember late 80s, early 90s, I was a little kid and going there for the first time and seeing the train. And, like, that stuck with me. Yeah.

I mean, I was a little kid, but I'll always remember that. Yeah, yeah.

It's a cool little thing. It's crazy. Who would have known when your dad was, when you were probably like, that's crazy. I remember. It worked out.

Because we, like, because he'd come back and we'd have a meeting and he'd be like. You're like, all right, what do you got? And they go, train.

What? Oh, my gosh.

Where are you going to put it? On the ceiling. Train on the ceiling. Obviously. Okay. Is it going to bring food, too?

Well, guys, I can't thank you both enough for coming in, spending some time with us. It's great to hear different perspectives, both sides of the coin, when it comes to development in Quance County. We know it's important to everyone that's listening what's going on in the county. So it was just a good time sitting down, talking with you for a little bit. And if you want to watch any videos, if you want to get any updates, you can always go on social media. I know that all of Jody's things are on social media. But there's also videos that we've made in the past. We visit the hotel. We visit all the restaurants. Now we just have to visit the hotel. I don't think we've done that one yet. And then we'll collect the whole set from you.

Yeah.

So we'll come out and do that. But you can watch those videos. Check those out. You can watch all of our development videos that we got to make with Amy and a lot of her staff if you go to our YouTube page and on Facebook and learn a little bit more about all the things we talked about, whether it be subdivisions or stormwater. We've made videos on all of that. So you can check that out if you want to learn more about development in Queens County. I want to give a thank you to Chris in our booth today who did all of our tech, who sat back and listened to his head almost explode when Amy forgot to mention horror. And I want to give a big thank you to Beth, who put together all of our questions and was our producer for today. She does a great job organizing all of our – getting you guys sitting down and organizing everything. I want to thank you for your time for listening. And I guess since that's the end, I'm going to consider this episode of The Open Agenda closed.

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