Planning Commission / Landmarks Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening. I'm calling this meeting of the Fulton Planning Commission to order. Today is Wednesday, August 26, 2026. The time is 631. Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

Commissioner Fleener? Here. Commissioner Tudor? Here. Commissioner Wayne? Here. Vice Chair Dino? Here. Chair Valadez?

Here. Please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.

Ready, begin.

We will now take public comments on items not appearing on tonight's agenda, but within the commission's jurisdiction. Each speaker has three minutes. Please state your name and the city of residence for the record. Anyone in chambers? Doesn't seem like it. Do we have any public comments on Zoom?

Yes, just a moment. Jensen Hallstrom, please unmute.

Good evening. Can you hear me?

Yes.

All right. I just want to start off my comment by saying that I initially tried to call in just by dialing the phone number off of the agenda. And when I put in the meeting ID number, said meeting ID does not exist. So I went through the Zoom app, but I just wanted to let you guys know. I wanted to follow up my previous comment a couple months ago regarding a municipal ordinance detailing the minimum amount of shade cover expected for parking lots within Fullerton and that surface parking lots must feature trees that provide at least 50% canopy shade across the entire square footage of the parking lot after 15 years after installation. So this is a The code right here seems to be 15.21.055 design review. I don't know much about this ordinance myself, but something that's pretty clear is that most parking lots and really still a lot of areas throughout Fullerton have a deficit of shade. And a lot of new developments have utilized palm trees for their plantings along sidewalks, which is pretty clear is not providing the shade cover over sidewalks and pedestrian infrastructure that there should be. So I don't know. I feel like I would like for this commission to start considering the urban forest infrastructure in Fullerton when it comes to planning. And I don't think that's an element that is really sought out after or really given much interest to. So just want to see what could be done by this commission in regards to this specifically interested about this specific ordinance speak.

No more speakers.

Seeing no additional speakers, public comment is now closed. We will now move to the consent calendar. These items are considered routine and will be approved with one motion unless a commissioner or a member of the public requests that the item be pulled for discussion. Do any commissioners wish to pull the item, which is the minutes from August 12 planning commission meeting from the consent calendar?

Does any second Madam clerk, please call the roll Commissioner Fleener Yes Commissioner Tudor abstain Commissioner Wayne Vice chair Dino yes chair Valadez aye aye

Next is Commissioner's communication disclosure regarding tonight's agenda item. Commissioners, do you have any disclosures to report? To my left. None. To the right. None. Thank you. There's no regular business on tonight's meeting. I will now open the public hearing for item number two. This is a request for a conditional use permit for the operation of a year-round weekly farmer's market of the Fulton Crossroads Shopping Center located at 3334 Yorba Linda Boulevard. The recommended action is adoption of the resolution. Staff please present your report.

Good evening Chair Valadez and commissioners. My name is Benjamin Koff associate planner with the city. Tonight I'm presenting z o n 20 26 0 0 7 1 a request for conditional use permit for a farmers market at 3 3 3 4 Yorba Linda Boulevard. Next slide please. The applicant Mary Ann Senske of McGlynn Events Inc. is requesting approval of a conditional use permit to operate a year round weekly farmers market on the campus of the Fullerton Crossroads Shopping Center. The market is proposed to operate every Tuesday from 3 p.m. to 7 p.m. With property owner approval the applicant has currently been operating the market under a special event permit while the CUP has been processing. Next slide please. The project is located at 3334 Yorba Linda Boulevard, as mentioned, within the Fullerton Crossroads Shopping Center. The property is approximately 7.29 acres and is designated commercial under the general plan and zone GC general commercial. The farmer's market would operate within the existing shopping center and does not require any new development or construction. Next slide. For public outreach, the city mailed notices to property owners and occupants within a 300-foot radius of the site. Notices were also posted online and at city facilities and on the city's website, and the notice was published in the local paper as required. Importantly, during the temporary operation of the farmer's market, There have been no calls for service to the Fullerton Police Department related to market operations. Additionally no letters of support or opposition have been received from staff. Next slide please. This slide shows the proposed location of the farmers market within the existing parking lot. The market will be located in the front portion of the shopping center adjacent to Yorba Linda Boulevard. The market area will be separated from vehicular traffic with barricades while existing access to the shopping center will remain available. Customers and vendors will park in the existing parking area immediately south of the market. Next slide, please. The proposed use is a certified farmers market with agricultural stands. The market began operating under a special event permit on July 21st and is proposed to continue every Tuesday from the hours of 3pm to 7pm. Estimated attendance is approximately 200 people and the market will occupy approximately 28 parking spaces. There is no charge for admission and the market is open to the public. The market activities do not include the service of alcohol, live or amplified music, involve generators, temporary stages, or cooking with compressed gas or an open flame. Next slide, please. Based on staff's review, parking and circulation are adequate for the proposed use. The existing shopping center provides 1,014 parking spaces, so the approximately 28 spaces used by the market represent a relatively small portion of the available parking. Public Works Traffic Engineering previously reviewed the proposal under the special event permit and found it to be in compliance with city requirements. Staff does not anticipate adverse impacts to traffic, neighboring uses, or the surrounding commercial and residential uses. The project is also consistent with the Fullerton plan, including goal 14, which supports community health and well-being. Finally, the project qualifies for a categorical exemption under CEQA. Next slide, please. Based on the analysis presented in the staff report staff recommends approval of the conditional use permit. The recommended action is for the Planning Commission to adopt resolution number PC 2026 dash 12 approving the operation of a weekly year round farmers market at the Fullerton Crossroads Shopping Center located at 3334 Yorba Linda Boulevard. That concludes my presentation. I'm available to answer any questions. And the applicant is also here as well.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Would the applicant like to make a presentation or provide comments.

I just want to say that the transition from Placentia to Fullerton has been amazing. We have been in Placentia for 14 years. We essentially got kicked out. They're building a Dutch Brothers over there. They gave us 42 days to move and your staff has been amazing. Everybody has been very helpful We fall under the Department of Agriculture. So we are federally regulated So there's a lot of moving parts and I just want to thank you for your time.

I Appreciate it. Thank you very much. I Will now open the public comment portion of this hearing they'll take public comments from chambers Seeing none any public comments on zoom regarding item number two

Hello? Can you hear me? Hello?

You can speak if you want. Oops, now he's muted.

Hi, can you guys hear me now?

Yes.

Hi, all right. I just wanted to say... that I'm interested in this farmers market here generally supportive of something like this, which is really great for the community. I did want to mention with seeing that aerial photo of the parking lot, this is kind of what I was alluding to earlier that many commercial parking lots in Fullerton have inadequate shade coverage. And I do want to say that something like a farmer's market is usually something that could be much more enjoyable when there is shade. And this is exactly why I would like for some of these things to be considered in that municipal code that I was trying to reference before is 15.17.040. And apparently, is a 50% shading rule to open parking areas under general site development standards. And that's a 5-0, 50% shade cover for parking lots 15 years after they have been constructed. with the landscaping installed. So I just wanted to mention that in this case, I think a farmer's market would be much more enjoyable if these property managers were actually managing their trees to the point where they are providing 50% shade cover over the parking lot, shading a lot of parking stalls, preventing issues with heat illness. Obviously, we're experiencing heat waves. And so I think that this is something very important that I just wanted to continue to just hopefully inspire this commission to take some interest in. Thank you.

No more speakers.

Thank you. I see no more speakers. Commissioners, any questions for staff or the applicant on this item?

I have a comment. I was going to question why you were going to have it on Tuesdays, because it conflicted with the Placentia one. But now I know why you're doing that. And I can tell you, I have been to the Placentia one a couple of times, and I love it. I really like that farmer's market.

That's right.

I mean, I have a comment as well. Yeah, at first I was like, oh, the location is kind of interesting, I guess, because I'm just used to the ones here in downtown. But it's nice to know that there will be a different part of Fullerton that will also have access now to fresh produce and things like that, because everybody deserves access to locally grown fruits and vegetables. Yeah, I like going to weekly things. I like that it's every single Tuesday, especially year-round. I know that our Thursday night market is seasonal. I believe it runs April through October. So to have a year-round night farmer's market would be nice.

So I did have a little clarification clarification questions. So what happened in Placentia.

Was it just the building of the Dutch brothers.

Please step into the.

Yeah so we were in their town center adjacent to your Belinda almost where we are proposing between Mr. Dees and Bank of America. And Newmark Merrill, which is the new owner of that property, wrote a lease to Dutch Brothers, and they wanted immediate access to it. So I think it was just a financial thing.

So is there any indication that once Dutch Brothers is built, that they would want you back?

We asked. Trust me, we tried. That parking lot is so small. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with Dutch Brothers, but it's a little bit crazy. And so they don't have any extra parking, and... This parking lot across the way just has ample parking, so it just worked out better.

And since she's lost, her fortune's gained, apparently.

I'm telling you, a lot of people, when we first found out, they were like, we'll take you, because it is cities, or it's like a Christmas tree, you know what I mean? You drop a street, and you're in Fullerton, then you're in Brea, then you're in, so it kind of touches, so it is kind of nice. I know at the Farmer's Market, there's that one on Thursday night. I love that one, because the concert's, We like to hang out there, but you do have another market on Wednesday morning. So you have another one. So that's a morning one. So this is just amplify it. So most people, like you're saying no placenta, but I don't know that a lot of people different between like what city it's in. It's just a farmer's market. That's on Tuesday from three to seven. It's been around for, you know, 14 years.

Yeah. From what, from what I noticed, I mean, having Having lived on that side of town for 40 years, it's across one street, you're in Placentia. Across another street, you're in Fullerton. Across another street, you're in Brea. I understand the geography because literally just one street over and it's Placentia versus Fullerton.

Trust me, Placentia did everything they could to try to find a new location for us. Unfortunately, Placentia is very small and they don't have what we needed. I don't have anything negative to say. It just didn't work out.

Knowing that shopping center are there any effects on your farmers market Knowing that that that the Union Bank building is under construction know that you Or it hasn't been finished yet When you say Union Bank, is that where the new Dunkin Donuts is? Yeah.

Okay, so that's already open and Okay, so they're both there's a I believe there's a restaurant next door and a Dunkin Donuts and both of them are open I've met them The guy comes down and gets tamales on Tuesday. So it's been a good little cross The only thing is that the Joanne's that left I believe that they have a temporary pop-up there a spirit Halloween And so that's like a temporary thing, but the parking lot is just so large that Yeah, something calls us here.

I That other building, is there, I guess that's now Dunkin' Donuts.

So Kohl's, and then the next larger one is Daiso, I believe.

Right.

Daiso, and then what used to be Joanne's, which is now a pop-up, will be a pop-up at Spirit. And then Ralph's. And then the little shops in between. Right. And by the way, we have ample shade, just so you know. We set it up particularly that way because we were looking for the trees, because it is hot, as Haiti's. So we have a lot of trees. So the way we picked that parking lot, we looked for shade. So we do, the way the farmers sit up, the back of them have shade because of the way the sun sets. And then the vendors on the other side, there's like six planners that provide more shade than we had on the other side, just to let you know. So where we're set up, we can't complain. I'm not going to complain about the shade. It's better than we had.

Thank you for the clarification. You're welcome. That's it for me, Mr. Chair.

Just something quick comes. I'm sorry. You're ready to sit down, but thank you for considering full of sure It's great that it complements up the other farmers markets.

Just a quick question on how you protect pedestrians you have We just run them over We don't have any issues on that way so we barricade the two ends where the entrances are and then so we it's set up that we can't use the first two or three parking and Spaces up to the parking lot. So we barricade them with cones. We have do not enter We have signs that says no turnaround. We've put everything there to barricade. So It's kind of funny because the majority of people are parking towards Auto zone I think because it's easier but when Chase Bank closes at 5 then people kind of transition over there. So it's like from 3 to 5 we have most of Chase Bank and Ralph's and then The whole parking lot about 5 o'clock just opens up. I haven't had any issues.

Then the other question would be just for restrooms, I guess. We use Ralph's.

Ralph's signed off for us.

And you have a sign or something like that?

We don't because we legally, under the Department of Health, we don't have to provide restaurants for the general public because we don't have any sit-down restaurants. We don't offer – everything at our farmer's market is to-go. So because we don't offer seating and we don't have any takeout food, we don't have – like the tamale guy, everything's wrapped to-go. He's the only thing there that would be considered food. And so we don't really have – you can't get a plate of food. There's nowhere to go. We don't offer that. We're not like a restaurant. We don't have food trucks or anything like that. So Ralph signed off on the restroom for us. We legally have to have a restroom within 200 feet of the front door, so it actually worked out perfect. And that's how we got our health permit.

Great. That's good to hear. One last question?

Trust me, we're there every day getting ice, water. All the vendors are over there.

So component question. Knowing that you're moving across the street, then have any of the other events that were originally in that parking lot wanted to move across the street as well? Like the cars like the car show you know about the car show.

So the car show has always kind of wanted to tag on with us. Unfortunately that parking lot's never been big enough but I believe there are car shows on either Mondays or Wednesdays and it's large but it's not anything that I have to do with because perform properties which is a mass conglomerate management company now like they own massive properties. It would be a separate entity. My permit with them has nothing to do with like a car show. They'd have to go separately through them. So it's nothing I can tag onto my permit. Department of Ag wouldn't allow me to do it anyways.

Right, no, I understand that. Because I know that, what's it, Placentia National Night Out has also been done in that space as well.

Yeah, I hated that event, just so you know. Because we had to move, and they took all our parking, and then our customers. So we do service 30% of what I consider the elderly. And so it's important for me to provide parking for them, that they can carry eggs and oranges and not have to truck across the parking lot. So that particular event took a lot of our parking and so our seniors weren't able to get food. And so that was an issue for me because we actually had to have a drop off or we were doing deliveries or drive throughs. We were trying to sustain that because we again we do service about 30 percent of the elderly community because they like to just come get like three peaches six eggs a half a loaf of bread like they like to come every week. It's like an outing for them and it's important for them to feel like you know So that's an event I wouldn't want to partner with.

And essentially you're getting more space across the street?

So much more space. And the parking is so much easier because we actually have five rows that parallel attach to the market. So there's accessible parking. We have about, I would say, close to the market. Within 100 feet, we probably have like 8 ADA spots. So it really helps a lot.

Thank you. You're welcome.

I just one question and this will go to staff afterwards. Has the city offered any advertising for your event at all.

We don't normally do that because again we are federally regulated with the Department of Agriculture so we have our own funding for that. Newmark Merrill next door has been very nice. I have a banner over there that I finally had to redo the banner and just put in bold letters. It says the farmer's market moved across the street, you know, in the Ralph Shopping Center to make us Plains Day. So they're letting me keep that up for 90 days. So we haven't really. And it's right on Yerba Linda Boulevard. So we're getting so many more people that are like, we didn't know we had a farmer's market. And it's like, because we just moved here. But most of the people that were from the Placentia market have moved with us. Customers.

Excellent. Well, best of luck. The question I guess would be for staff is there any I guess that would be more of a public parks and rec possibility of advertising that or Or the economic development. I don't know where you would recommend.

Yeah, we'd have to talk well our Pio So we do publish Stuff on the was a channel 3 or whatever So that's something we could probably put in a rotation. I'd have to talk to city manager's office if we could do that and

Perfect well, thank you very much Seeing no more no more questions for staff for the applicant. Are we done with questions? Yes Okay, the public hearing is not closed the Commission now will discuss this issue Any final comments?

My only concern would have been parking and it sounds like that's not a problem at all. So I Thoroughly enjoyed the one the one in Placentia. So I expect this will be just as good as

Ditto. Perfect. I think we're all supportive of it. Is there a motion?

Motion to approve.

Second. Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

Commissioner Fleener? Yes. Commissioner Tudor? Yes. Commissioner Wayne? Aye. Vice Chair Dino?

Yes.

Chair Valadez?

Aye. The motion passes. We will now move to, congratulations, we will now move to commission and staff communications.

Sir so just as a Follow-up to our City Council meeting on the 18th of August We had a very full agenda, but it was a great meeting got a lot accomplished One was a request for a sequel consultant for a project that we're working on that was approved our economic development manager Mr. Wirtz did an update on economic development activities and we also presented the response to the oc grand jury which was related to the housing crisis all cities in orange county were tasked to provide a response to a list of questions about housing issues and it was due by um it was just after that meeting on the 18th um we also Presented a housing development opportunities presentation, which? Was a result of staff obtaining a reap grant of about three hundred thousand dollars we were Working in conjunction with place works and my attendance to present that actual report to you at our next meeting to show you the outcomes of that that process And then lastly, we had the old spaghetti factory lease, which was due for an update. I know there's a lot of discussion about it, but the lease rate is still below market average. And I know there was a lot of consternation about us raising it, but it's still, like I said, below market. So that is all. For the next meeting on the 9th of September, Like I said, I was going to do a presentation on the REAP 2.0 grant about the housing opportunity site, and we can talk about it. It'll just be a receive and file action. No decision has to be made. And then council, the first meeting in September is canceled. That is all.

Thank you. Any other questions from the commissioners?

I have a question a couple of questions. I've got a question about where we stand on some of the housing where there was going to be affordable housing. I know one was point common. Have we had any progress on some of our affordable housing approvals.

We things have just kind of stagnated a little bit. We have two projects that finished plan check but they've not moved forward to construction because of the economics of the projects. They're just they're just sitting there smaller projects 25 unit projects. They're just not progressing. I guess it doesn't pencil for the developer. Well, as you're aware, the street lights project now called Atlas Fullerton is under construction. So that has a housing affordability component of I think it's 10%. But yeah, that's pretty much it. OK.

A totally unrelated question. Thinking about the comment from Jensen, I'd like to ask, I know that this is the planning commission, so I'm not sure what we can actually do about trees. other than hopefully encouraging or asking developers to put trees in when they develop. If there's something else, I'd be interested in knowing what else we can do. And also, I'm wondering, even though we're planning commission, is there a way we can get an update on what's happening with the trees? I know, what, a couple years ago, I think they came out with a new tree plan, and I'm wondering how that's going.

You know, I actually totally agree with Mr. Hallstrom. It's always a fight. I'll just give you an example. When I worked in the city of La Habra, the director at that city had us planters going out to each property and looking to see if the trees were still present. So we spent a lot of time looking at the approved plans for each center or shopping district. And then we would follow up with letters to the owner saying, hey, these trees are supposed to be there. You need to replant them. and we would get a lot of pushback because the shop owners say, well, you're now blocking the view to my sign. And it was a huge effort, but we got a lot of trees replanted, but then if you don't keep on top of those shop owners, A year later, they'll rip those trees out if you're not watching them. So it's very labor intensive. You have to like, you know, actually go and look at these sites and then pull up the approved plans and double check. So, um, yeah, I, I love trees too, but it's always a fight with some of the, the shop owners. They just don't like their signs blocked from view and, you know, just one of those things, you know? Yeah.

On that same question, if I can piggyback on that, is that something that, if that's municipal code, is that something code enforcement would be involved in?

It could be, yeah. We would have to, I mean, some of these centers are, they might predate the landscaping ordinance. So those are grandfathered, so those are a little bit harder to address. But the ones that were approved with a certain amount of trees that are supposed to be on the site, yeah, that's something we could do. But like I said, it's labor intensive. It's It's a planner going through all the records, finding the approved plans, and then getting the code enforcement guy out to cite the owner. So there's some time it takes to do this.

Going through the code and just trying to understand the context of things and making sure you understand them right, Is this something that you would say, at least from where you're standing right now, do you believe this to be, his perspective would be correct, this is something that's supposed to be happening, and just for whatever reason it's not, or?

It's just the level of staffing we have. We're able to maintain our service where we're getting plan checks done on time and the different processes, but to add new processes might affect other things that we do.

Well, that wasn't meant to be like an accusation. It was more, is he understanding it correctly? And is that something that was added

Recently and we just didn't or it's old and we forgot about it or yeah, honestly I don't know the history behind that but I I do I do know that on more recent projects that was Exhibit that was provided it showed the trees being planted and then ten years later what the tree coverage should be and So I've seen those exhibits, and it's part of the record. But I don't know how far back this ordinance goes. It might be 10 years ago. I'm not sure. It might be longer.

What other members of the commission think it's worthy of having a brief staff report on it and making sure we understand it?

I would love to know where we're going with trees I'm concerned about especially South Fullerton where there's not nearly as many trees as we have up here in the up where I live at least in the northern area of the city and it does make a huge difference in the temperature. So I know that we're strapped both financially and with people but I'm wondering what what you see that we can do to start making progress on that.

Yeah, just for clarification, the Planning Department, we have control over the private properties. Everything in the public right-of-way, that's public works, so we're out of that realm. But yeah, he's right and Mr. Hollister is right. There's a certain amount of shading that's supposed to be present for most of these properties. So yeah.

I mean, would it be possible for us to get a report as far as it's in the purview of the Planning Commission?

I'm sorry, say it again.

Would it be possible to get a report like Commissioner Wayne had requested? Basically, just what's in the purview of the Planning Commission when it comes to trees and shade?

Yeah.

I know that would be general plan or not.

I'm trying to figure out how we can do this.

Because I'd be in favor of that, too.

Just even a discussion of the code. I'm kind of fascinated by the fact that you're supposed to, after a certain number of years, have a certain percentage of coverage. And then I'm wondering as well, I don't know if you could enforce that, or do you have cities enforce that in the past? It seems like it would be pretty difficult because, again, how do you analyze that percentage coverage?

If we have like a CEP for a property or some kind of major site plan review or specific plan that we can tie enforcement to, that's easier to get that done, but sometimes not so much. The big push we had probably about 10 years ago statewide was the adoption of the model I'm trying to remember the acronym Low like low water use landscaping and so all the cities had to adopt this and well, oh, that's what we call it and and It talked about, you know, using less turf, using more native plants, using more mulch, that type of thing. And so that was kind of the big push. Trees kind of falls in there too, but some of the stuff was at the discretion of the cities and some things was mandated by the state.

Was that necessarily part of it? Sorry, was that necessarily part of the last general plan or kind of how did that?

Know it was kind of after the general plan update. I Can't remember what year it was. I remember I was going to the water quality district every every week to attend these meetings So I worked on the the model water ordinance for the city of La Habra at that time but every city would like I said was required to adopt it and

Would you maybe if we can spend some time looking at it just briefly and and and maybe mr. Hallstrom could come by and he might he would like to give a presentation as well I feel like there's some similarity with that and and the noise ordinance from Year and a half ago or whatever that was where it's like we we have something on the code that

You know makes make sense it sounds good, but maybe it's not enforceable for some reason is there some way this could be adopt or adapted to make it enforceable or. A 50% people are going to lose their minds and they're not going to follow it, but if we if we adapt the code to something else, then maybe they'll comply with that that. That's kind of what I'd be looking at. Is the interpretation totally right? And then if it's unenforceable, what are some ideas about how we could have an enforceable code?

Yeah, I mean, it's all about priorities. You know, the city council sometimes sets a priority of what they want to have done. Like, for instance, maybe a couple years ago, they were kind of pounding us for getting plan checks done within 14 days, and now we do it. So but you know then other things kind of fall to the wayside a little bit. You know it's just we don't have a huge staff anymore. You know as you're aware with the budget that was just adopted we lost a planner position. So we're down a person. So it just makes it a little tougher to get some things done.

I mean you just mentioned it. What do you think I guess. With being down a planner, how do you kind of make up for that in terms of code enforcement and plan check across the board in your department?

Well, there's certain things that we have to do that the state says we have to do. We can't negotiate, like for instance, public records requests like we have a certain timeline we have to get those done and we're just getting bombarded with those so that's sucking up a lot of staff time and then there's other things that are not as critical and so they kind of they fall later you know later on so it's just it's managing the different priorities and you know there's some things that are you know higher priority than others

So my next question to that is, when it came to Placeworks and the grant and the determining of properties, I know we're going to be talking this a little bit more next month, but my question is, shouldn't it have been the other way around? It should have come to Planning Commission first before the council versus how it went Like, was it the grant or was it the fact that we just had to respond quickly?

We had to respond quickly. We were up against a very short time limit. We did hold a public workshop for the church properties, so we were able to get that in there. But, yeah, it was, in the Army we call it short flash to bang time, but we had to move quickly. Otherwise, we would have lost that money.

My so we can talk about more next month, but so my understanding is that it's not it's only identifying Properties that can be used. It's not necessarily Don't be any to any into a specific plan.

No, it's just demonstrating different sites The the main priority was to look at city-owned properties. So we looked at the SoCo parking lot the parking lot over off of a Chapman the other um train station parking lot and so we we looked at city properties first and then we threw in a couple church properties and other private properties to show hey this is what could happen here but you know i don't want to i don't want to tell you everything today i want to save some some of that stuff for the next time when we talk about it wait so chris when you talk about properties that

we have some that are in plan check, some that could be eligible, but it's just not mathing. Is that kind of what I'm hearing you say? During some of the affordable developments that have been in the pipeline just aren't mathing?

Yeah, you know, when a developer comes in, they do their own analysis. They do their performance. They figure out what it's going to cost to build something. The time of process could take six months. It could take a year, you know, depending on the level of environmental review or other things. And in that span of time, things might become more expensive, like the cost of steel, for instance. So for one of the projects that I'm aware of, they're using I-beam steel supports inside the building, and now it's too expensive to build it. So they're performing change because of different economic issues with the tariffs and other things that are going on. So it made sense at one time. A year later, it doesn't make sense. And then the project just never gets built. It's just kind of the reality of development.

And then final question. What's the status of Harbor and Hermosa?

No updates.

All right. That's it for me.

Well, Mr. Schaefer, I'm excited to hear your report at our next meeting. And then maybe as commissioners, we can look a little bit into the canopy and we'll bring up the subject again then. So seeing there's no further business and everybody's done with questions, this meeting is adjourned.