City Council - Regular Meeting

Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the twenty twenty five board training. Hi, Bill. Like, I I don't wanna have to use this today. So we are based on some comments, we've done this different ways. We've done it all in person. We've done it all virtual. And then we had some feedback last year that was requesting a change to perhaps having it in person again. So we have thank you for you all here today.

And we do have a number of people online, and I'm sure some who will be reviewing this recording at a later date who weren't able to attend either online or in person live. So for those of you who have not had the pleasure of sitting through one of these before, my name is Kelly Fernandez. I'm the City Attorney, and we are required to do this training of all of our board members annually because of a lawsuit that predates my firm's time representing the city of Venice, but it was a public records Sunshine Law lawsuit that is still the costliest, I believe, lawsuit on these issues. And as part of a settlement agreement, the city agreed to conduct an annual training of its board members. It used to be council members as well, but now state law changed a couple of years ago that requires every elected official to have four hours of training.

So they are exempted from having to attend this board training and know that yours will not be four hours long. I think generally we're done well within an hour, if not less. But for those of you who have been through this training many times, I apologize because the material doesn't really change. Our laws stay the same. We'll have some new examples to show you of people who have violated Sunshine Law and public records around the state, but otherwise the content is more or less the same.

I do find value. I do get the question almost every year, so I'll preemptively answer it of when can we stop doing this annual training. And my answer is never because, one, we're required to do it by settlement agreement. So I'd have to go back to the court and to the opposing party and request a modification of that settlement agreement, which I don't really want to do. And more importantly, I think there's value.

Even if you've heard this presentation for ten years, there's value in you hearing it for an eleventh year, a twelfth year, etcetera, just reinforcing these very important items of state law that every board member of any advisory board in the state must follow. So you are not unique. With that said, I am happy to answer questions at any point during this proceeding, either from the people virtually online. I believe they have their own mechanism of being able to, yep, raise your hand, ask a question, or verbally. I think we'll be able to hear you if you interrupt.

But otherwise my intention today is to start with the PowerPoint presentation which speaks to the generalities of what's required by Florida's Sunshine Law and Public Records Act. Then we will go through some examples of recent examples of violations that have occurred in other places in the state. And then we'll conclude with everyone's favorite quiz. So can you I can't see my PowerPoint. There we go.

What is government in the sunshine? The reason we have these laws and Florida does I won't say we're unique, but we do have a stronger transparency authorities in Florida versus other states. And that is established by not only our state laws but our Florida constitution. It enshrines the public's right to have full knowledge of the decision making process and what the decision makers are doing, both publicly and behind the scenes. So we have strong Public Records Act and strong Florida sunshine law.

We'll start with the sunshine law, and there's three basic requirements. Every meeting has to be open to the public. We have to provide reasonable notice of the meetings, and minutes have to be taken. So for the second two, reasonable notice and minutes of the meeting being taken, we rely on our wonderful clerk's office. They are responsible for doing any of the publications that you see in the newspaper, on our online, so that anyone who has an interest in the topic of your board is able to have knowledge of, first of all, where and when your meetings are, and then also what you might be discussing at that particular meeting.

So they're able to come and speak or just listen to your proceedings. Minutes is obviously a very important component of this too because for anyone who wasn't able to attend, they're able to have an understanding of what was accomplished or what wasn't accomplished, what might be taken up at a later date. And we also then have a record for years down the road to maintain knowledge of what that Board has done. Sunshine Law then applies to any gathering, whether it's official, like at a public meeting or informal out in the public, of two members or more of the same board. So again, that same board is the key.

If you're a member of the Police Pension Board, you're free to talk to City Council. If you're a member of the Planning Commission, you're free to talk to the Historic and Architectural Preservation Board. You're just unable to speak to someone on your same board about any matter now we're going move on to number three on which foreseeable action will be taken by your board. So that would be a voting item or something that you know is coming up or something that you have some level of belief will be coming up. So if it's past action, completely finished, your board is never going to take it up again, you can talk to each other about it once the matter is finished.

But if you have any inclination to believe that item is going to be may come, whatever you want to talk to another Board member about may come before your Board in the future, the only appropriate place, the only legally authorized place to discuss that with another board member is at a noticed meeting of your board. All your meetings have to be open to the public. So that means they're accessible, they're adequate as far as the space they can handle people to show up. You could not have your meeting at a private property where the public doesn't have a right to come to it. You have to have audible discussions.

That's why we have microphones. If our board members were just sitting up here with no mics talking to each other informally and someone out there couldn't hear what was going on, that would be a violation of the Sunshine Law. All this, again, goes back to the right of people to be able to be present and to hear the discussions that are leading up to votes and decisions of your board or of any board. There are a few exceptions to the Sunshine Law. Those really have no bearing on the boards that you're sitting on.

They're just basically relevant to the elected officials, the City Council in our case. Labor negotiations and collective bargaining, those do not have to be held at a publicly notice meeting. Risk management issue discussions, discussions about our security systems and attorney client meetings for pending litigation only. So even I can't meet with you all at your boards or the City Council unless something is actually in litigation. If it's just we think something's going to be becoming litigation, I can only speak to the Board members either one on one individually or at a public meeting.

So it's very, very restrictive as far as what can happen both behind the scenes. The reason it's important for you all, even as advisory board members, to understand the Sunshine Law is because there are penalties associated with violations. And all of these have happened. We've seen examples of these throughout the state. You can be criminally prosecuted in severe instances of violation by up to a second degree misdemeanor.

There are noncriminal infractions, which would involve fines. Actions that happened violations of the Sunshine Law can cause whatever it was that violated the Sunshine Law to void that action. You have to redo it basically. So it costs a lot of time and effort as well for the local government when you have to rewind an action that was taken and redo it. And also, there is an opportunity for the opposing party to recover attorney's fees.

That's what we see a lot. That's why the City of Venice's own lawsuit was so costly is because of the attorney's fees that were owed, both for the city paying its own attorney's fees, but then paying the attorney's fees of the opposing party that ended up being found to be a valid action. And also in the worst cases, could have removal from office. So that was a real brief overview of the Sunshine Law. And I think just the key things I always want you to remember is do not talk to your fellow board members about items of board business or things you think will become items of board business, except when you're sitting up here during your actually held meetings.

So not discussions before the meeting, before that gavel is hit down, not discussions after the meeting, only if that issue is done done, never coming back before you again. It's very simple in a way, if you remember those things, only going talk to my fellow board members during a board meeting. You can socialize. You can be out in public together. You can be on other boards together.

Just do not talk about your board for the city's business unless you're sitting here at a meeting. If there's something you need to you know you want to tell your other board members, then that's an agenda item. If it's not scheduled, that's an agenda item you want to put on for one of your future meetings. Talk to the clerk's office. They're the ones who can assist you in getting that teed up so you can have that discussion.

If there's an article you read and you want to share it with your fellow board members, use your clerk's office. They can make sure that's funneled to the other board members in an appropriate manner so we won't have the possibility of creating a Sunshine Law violation. So it's a lot of emphasis on the clerk's office. I think they're a very key part in assisting you all in making sure we do not have any future Sunshine Law violations. Is there anything the clerk's office wants to add in today about the Sunshine Law before I move on to Public Records Act?

No. The one thing I would say is for the pension boards, don't do a lot for you as far as your minutes and your agendas, but we can still coordinate with the plan administrators who do those things because we do make sure those get posted. So please feel free to still reach out to us if you're on one of the pension boards.

Yes. That's a good point. So, yeah, pension our two pension boards are a little bit different as far as how they're operating. Still have to follow the sunshine law, but just the mechanics of the assistance is different. And you all can always contact me as well.

The only boards that the city attorney's office sits with is the Planning Commission and our Historic and Architectural Preservation Board, and because they have quasi judicial proceedings, and that's why those boards are covered by city attorney's office and not the others. As I briefly touched on, curing the Sunshine Law so if you have had a conversation, substantive conversation, with a fellow board member outside of a publicly noticed meeting. Hopefully, that was unintentional. And you realize after the fact that that's not something we shouldn't have had that conversation. My request is that you notify me, notify the clerk's office, because we can cure that violation before it becomes an issue perhaps down the road.

And the cure is simply to notice that discussion at one of your board meetings so then you can disclose, and whoever else had the discussion can disclose what was discussed privately and bring it out into the sunshine. And at that point, generally, that's enough to cure the violation. So the public records law is different. We're moving away from communications with your fellow board members to just communications in general. Public records law is, again, set up by both the Florida constitution and Florida statute.

So while public records law gets additional exceptions every year or exemptions, the actual law itself has not changed in a very, very long time. Basically what it boils down to is any document of any format that relates that you receive or you develop that relates to your board's business is a public record that must be retained in coordination with the clerk's office for records retention schedules that are established by the state. So again, it's any kind of material. It's an email. It's just generally speaking what a document could be.

An email, a note written on a piece of paper, a text, a social media post. As long as that's connected to official action of your board and is intended to perpetuate, communicate, or formalize knowledge. So we'll get into that a little bit further. Before I do, who can request these public records? Anybody for any reason.

So you. You can request any document that the city has for and you don't have to tell us why for any reason. You can actually request a whole bunch of documents. Now there might be a fee for that because the time and the effort it takes to collect responsive documents the city can charge for if it exceeds about fifteen, twenty minutes of time or effort. But just keep in mind that whatever you're producing, the public has a right to inspect.

And whatever you're receiving about your board, the public has a right to inspect. So social media, I do like to always specifically focus on this one because it's really an easy area to stumble into violations unintentionally. And, again, if you're posting let's just say you post something about your board. We have a meeting coming up, and we're gonna be talking about whatever item. That social media post, whether it's on you name it, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, you know, any of those types of things, is a public record.

Even though you've created on your own personal page that's about your board business, you've created it to perpetuate, formalize, or communicate information, So you have to retain not only that post, but if anybody responds to it, if anybody likes it, if anybody shares it. I mean, there's different ways of doing all this on social media, and I know not everybody uses social media, but it's important to cover, you have to figure out a way if you're going to do something like that, and it's not prohibited, then you can do that. You just need to be able to retain it. Because if somehow you delete it or someone else is able to delete it or it just gets lost in time, you've destroyed a public record. And destroying a public record or not having it to be able to give to someone who requests it, that's a violation of the public records law.

So how do you retain something like that? Well, you have to if you're going to do that, you have to figure out. I have to screenshot it. I have to print it. I have to do something that can ensure that this is always going to be here, and I'm going to turn it over to the clerk's office or whoever is your records custodian for your board to make sure it's in the public records.

So the easiest thing to do is not use social media, not comment, post, etcetera, on anything related to your board. Just know, too, even if it's not about your board, if you are sending out to an elected official, let's say, or to someone else on another board information, that's still a public record but not necessarily one that, you know, you're responsible for maintaining. So just be very careful with and, your advisory boards, you're not creating much public records anyway. You might be receiving a lot of public records. Now if you receive a letter here's another example.

If you receive an email unsolicited from a citizen directly to your personal email account about your board, That's a public record. You didn't ask for it, but now you've got it. It's about something your board is considering. You need to forward that to your city email account. Everyone the city who is on a board gets a city email account, use it.

Use it exclusively for your board business. If you have somebody that wants to communicate with you via email about your board business, make sure they're communicating to you through your city email account because that is managed by the city. They make sure all those emails are retained. You don't need to worry about it. If you get something sent to your personal email address about your city board business.

Just forward it to your city email account, and you don't have to worry about it being retained. Social media is just more difficult because the city is not involved in in your social media at all. So you need to maintain social to the extent you're using it to talk about your board business, you need to make sure you're maintaining it yourself. Any questions about public records? This is not about communications between you and another board member. This is just any communication from anybody or to anybody about your board business. If it generates a document, that's a public record that you have to maintain. Okay. Yes, sir.

Anything at all to do with them?

People on Zoom won't be able to hear you.

Oh, is it possible then for any text not to be a public record as, you know, it's if it has anything at all to do with you know like, even if you're changing the time of, say, a board meeting, we we gotta move from one to two because the meeting room is not available. And I get that from the plan administrator. Is that now is that a public record?

So thank that's a great question. So there is an exception to the Public Records Act for things that do not need to be retained if they're of a very temporary nature. So communications that would fall into that category are are things like meeting time changes. So if you get a text or an email or whatever about, oh, our meeting's gonna be at Tuesday instead of Wednesday, or it's gonna be at three instead of two, and that's sent to your personal email or your or your personal phone on a text. You don't need to retain that because it's temporary.

It's just talking about a time change. Now if there's a substance to it, like we're changing the meeting to 02:00 on Tuesday instead of 04:00 on Tuesday because we know there's gonna be 20 people coming in from the police department who wanna talk to us about that that, you know, there's substance to it. That is a text that would have to be retained. So if you're receiving that from your administrator, I mean, hopefully, they're retaining the text they've sent to you, but you would want to confirm so you don't have to worry about it. Yeah.

I'd say that's probably a gray area too where you it's more of a temporary. It's just, yes, a reminder. It's really when you start getting into, and it's a very small exception, so I don't want to, like, lump everything into the, oh, well, it's it's temporary. I don't need to take care of it. But the very common example of that is a meeting change time or something like that where it's just a or, hey. I'm meeting you at twelve today. Right? I mean, that kind of information is just temporary, just temporal. It loses its value for the future once that event has occurred. But, yes, so texts, otherwise, you don't our board members don't get like, our city council gets city issued phones.

You don't get city issued phones. So texting is another one where, for any reason, you're getting texts about anything related to your board that aren't just about meeting times, screenshot it, make sure you retain it, and submit it to your clerk or records custodian. So then you can delete the message. You can move on with your life, and you don't have to and the good thing too, and let me explain that further. So one of the reasons why we like everything going back to the clerk's office, whether it's on your personal device or not, you know, if it accidentally comes to you and you send it to the clerk's office because then when we have a records request, they could do their searches, and they don't need to involve you.

So if they know we have all the documents, so if someone asks for all the communications between person A and person B and your person A, the clerk's office will just go through all the documents they have, the emails, anything you've sent them already, and they can fulfill the records request without having to go to you and saying, Hey, do you have any text? Do you have anything on your personal devices that we need to know about? I mean, that's as we'll see when we talk about examples, the issues that come up are because of mostly texting still, texting communications between to two people. Now, yes, I'm sliding into Sunshine Law a little bit, but or just public records that, oh, that I someone has a you have to have a knowledge. For someone to really get into it and get a subpoena, for instance, to get your cell phone, your private cell phone, there has to be some basis for why they think there's information, there's records that exist that you haven't turned over.

So let's say whoever you were texting with might have supplied some text to show, like, hey, there's texts that were happening, but lo and behold, you never supplied us any. So having that ability to retain those things prevents you from potentially having to turn over a personal device. One, don't do it in the first place. Don't text with another board member. Or if you're texting at all about board business, even with a member of the public or an applicant or whoever comes before you, retain it.

Try to avoid it. If you don't, retain it. Questions on that? Okay. So just like the sunshine law, there are criminal penalties and noncriminal infractions that are possible if you have a violation of the Public Records Act. So of course, which category a violation falls into depends on its severity. But I don't think I have it in this presentation anymore, but you know, you don't want to be the mugshot that ends up in the newspaper. Does that happen with advisory board members a lot? No. It doesn't.

And we appreciate your work and that you're subjecting yourself to these possibilities, but it can happen. And and we have some examples of nonelected boards where that's happening that we'll even discuss today. So be very cognizant of these requirements. So this I started sharing after the opinion came out in 2023. So I think it did a really good job.

And so those of you who have been in this presentation before have seen this already. This judge in Indian River County at the 4th District Court Of Appeal, he felt so concerned about what he'd been seeing as far as sunshine laws being violated that he wrote this lengthy concurring opinion in this case of Gilliams versus State. And this is one of those cases where I used to pull the mugshots because you have the people with their nice elected official photo, and then I put right next to it on the next page their mugshot of when they got arrested for pretty blatant sunshine law violations. And I thought the the judge did a a really great job of ringing the bell of alarm and just saying, you know, everyone needs to we have these laws. They need to be appreciated.

Because if you if you don't, you're gonna be the person with the mugshot who now has potential criminal penalties against them. And as he pointed out, it doesn't matter whether you're elected or appointed. It applies to you. These laws apply to you all equally. There's no difference for there's no leniency for an appointed official versus an elected official.

And I'm not going to read through all of these, but I think he laid out these are directly from his opinion. He laid out just some key points that everyone should take a look at, and I'll make sure this PowerPoint gets uploaded into our agenda materials if it isn't already. We've covered a lot. Two or more fellow officials. As he points out, there's rarely any purpose for a private meeting between two or more government officials who are subject to the Sunshine Law.

A lot of newspaper articles I read, how did they start? They started by someone seeing two people who they knew were on the same elected body or advisory board chatting in situation, maybe not necessarily just like at a party or something, but in a restaurant or somewhere right before or right after a meeting, and something leads them to believe that, you know, this doesn't look right. Something and then there's a seems like it'd be a confluence of opinion when the vote comes up in a meeting. So they're the little nuggets that lead up to belief that there's a Sunshine Law violation and then off we're going having to engage in legal time and effort to defend these meetings. So just be very careful of the actions you're doing and how those might be perceived by those around you when you're talking to another fellow board member.

As I discussed number three, it's meetings that happen informally in the hallway. Those could be Sunshine Law violations. The only time you're talking to your fellow board members about board business is when you're sitting up here and the meeting is happening. Not before the meeting, not after the meeting, not in the hallway during a break. All those would be sunshine law violations if you're discussing board business.

And he hits on the fact that, yes, you could have your private records. It's happened here in the city of Venice. I hate to say more than once where private phone records, private text messages can be subpoenaed. Now does that mean everybody gets to see all your private messages right away? No, it doesn't.

But even I mean, I would be uncomfortable knowing someone has my data that's not me, even if I know it's going to be gone through in an appropriate way and not made public. When in doubt, leave. If you think there's something wrong with the conversation you're having, stop the conversation and walk away. It's not worth the risk. And so here, the infamous City of Venice case, 2009, where the City of Venice incurred over $2,000,000 in fees and costs and for our Sunshine Law and public records violations.

So that's where we we don't want to go again. It's not an example. You know, we're the example around the state for where you don't want to be and where we will never go again. That's why we have these trainings. So Kelly Michaels isn't here. I'll ask turn to my clerks again. Say, is there anything about public records?

No. I have nothing to add. Just, again, use your clerk's office if you have a question about what to do with a document or an email or something. We're going to encourage you to either give a copy to us or use your city email. And one note too, I'll add to Kelly's comments. If you have personal notes, those aren't public records until you share them with somebody. So if you are just taking notes during a meeting to help jog your memory, that type of thing, those aren't public records. But as soon as you show them to someone else or hand them to someone else or someone else sees them, then they become a public record. So just if you wanna keep those for your own purposes, just do that.

Yes. Thank you. Very good point. And before I switch over to the quiz questions, I'm just gonna run through some of the articles that we included in the agenda. And, again, this is what we do. And hi, Carla Armstrong in the back. She's new to my office. She helped pull the articles this year, so you will all probably be seeing her at various points. But so thank you to her. But every year, we just look through we Google.

Basically, Google search Public Records Act violations, Sunshine Law violations. Every year, it's very easy to find examples from around the state of just within that past twenty twelve months of examples of violations. So, you know, until I find until there's a year where I can't find an article, I'm gonna say that means these are valuable trainings because, yes, I don't represent all those other cities and counties and advisory boards, but it just shows that it's still a focus. And we have a very active individual, Michael Barfield, in our region who, many cases, have originated from his efforts to uphold you can look at it different ways, but I'll say uphold the validity of Public Records Act and Sunshine Law. And he's very successful.

So he's behind, I think, every lawsuit we've ever had in the city of Venice in public records and Sunshine Law. And so you know he's involved, there might be something there to it. And so we have people watching Venice, Northport, Sarasota, our entire region, and making sure that we are following the requirements of the Sunshine Law and Public Records Act. So we have just a couple articles. I'll just run through them quickly.

I think we have a question.

Oh, yes.

It's the nature of our board is sometimes between meetings, need to speak to people like attorneys, actuaries, and so forth. Is that a public record when we speak on the phone?

Thank you. Great. You always ask great questions. I appreciate it. So very good point. So I wanna make that clear that when you are a board member, you are free to communicate with anybody else besides a fellow board member. So let's just make sure that's clear. An attorney, a city clerk's office, a member of the public, etcetera. When you have a telephone call so now we'll switch into the Public Records Act. So assuming you're not talking to a fellow board member, you're talking to your administrator, you're talking to an officer, you're talking to whomever, and you're having a phone call, that's not a record.

I mean, you don't need to make a notes of your phone call. You don't need to record your phone call. So that is not that's not a public record. Now you someone calling you or you calling someone about board business if you had a a phone log, you know, like your cell phone carrier, let's say, creates that, someone could ask for that and see if you called this person or this person called you. That would be a public record.

But the actual phone call itself, you know, the content of it, unless you're recording it, is not a public record. So, you know, if you wanna communicate with your basically anybody, not a fellow board member, but, you know, anybody, it's always best to to take a phone call, to do it via phone because then you're not capturing it might be a sensitive conversation. It just might not be something that you necessarily want perpetuated as a a public record. So other than the call itself having taken place at this time between these two people, if it's on a list that your cell phone carrier can provide, it's there's nothing about that that's a public record. So pick up the phone.

It's a new modern thing. Okay. The first article that was in the and please go look at these if you haven't had an opportunity to. They're very short articles. This was one involving the Jacksonville Utility Authority.

It's a follow-up really from last year where I included a bunch of articles about what was happening there. So the long and short of this is now they've concluded the investigation. I went to the state attorney's office in that part of the state, and there was no Sunshine Law violation. And the communications in this case, why there was no Sunshine Law violation, is that it revolved around a completed action. So apparently these members of this JEA authority were discussing a prior CEO's resignation.

So that didn't involve board action. The resignation was complete. So to the extent they were having multiple people at the same board were communicating outside of a public meeting about this resignation, there was no violation because there was no foreseeable action to be taken by the board. So that's a good example of when you can communicate to a fellow board member. If something is done, never going to come back before your board, never going to come to your board, you can talk to a fellow board member about it.

This is also a follow-up, I think, from an article I had in the materials last year where there was a we'll call him an activist, someone who typically asks for a lot of public records. This is also in the Jacksonville area. He was one of the first the law changed, I don't know, two, three years ago now. So if it was for an improper purpose, a public records request, the city, county, government entity could try to get their attorney's fees for having to file a lawsuit or pursue the person who was asking for the records in the first place. So unfortunately, there are circumstances where people abuse their ability to request public records, and they just put out lots and lots of requests and take up tons of time by the local government, even if they're willing to pay for it, and look for opportunities to see where, oh, they didn't provide me something, which is possible.

I mean, there's tons of records. It's hard to go through an email and find exactly the email that you're asking for sometimes. But in this case, the court determined that, yes, this individual, the requester of the public records, had to pay the attorney's fees because there was not a legal justification for his public records lawsuit. So he was $134,000 he had to pay in legal fees to the agency. So that's a good thing, in my eyes, for global governments because a lot of times this was one way.

You could get the fees from us. We can't get fees from you. Now it's it's more equitable. So if you're abusing the right to ask for public records, we have a mechanism to recoup our attorney's fees. And, hopefully, then that would mean we'll have fewer instances of people abusing the public records request option.

There's another case from Holmes County, so it's up in the Northern part of Florida. Sunshine Law violation was alleged between board members. This was a I think this is an advisory board, actually, where the allegation was that one of the board members they were gonna be appointing some people to a board or committee. So one of the board members talked to another board member, gave them a list of people they should talk to that they would potentially appoint, and that became became an issue, communications outside of a publicly noticed meeting. It was investigated and determined that well, one of the individuals resigned.

One of the board members resigned, and that terminated the investigation as far as that person was concerned. The other one apparently went through a trial proceeding. And and while he was found guilty, the judge did not levy any punishment because he felt like the the violation was so de minimis. It's like, yes. It was a violation. You shouldn't have done this, but there's no penalty other than you having to have gone through this process. Let's see. We have a St. John's Airport Board article. Here we have a situation where these board members were apparently meeting and privately discussing changes to airport policies.

And then it must have gotten real intense while they were doing the investigation because one of them was also accused of witness tampering and was arrested for that. Needless to say, all three Board members resigned. And I think at that point, I'm not sure it's being investigated anymore, but another example, I mean, that's pretty blatant if they were conducting private meetings about what clearly would be a board business of airport policies. If you're on a airport board. Don't do it. That's what that article says to me again. They should have all known that that was a no no. And you're going to everyone thinks they can be secretive enough. Their communications will never be found out. People find out.

It happens. We have another one with the Jacksonville. A lot of cases over in the Northeast Part of Florida. I'm not sure what's what's going on over there. Jacksonville City Council, they've had another controversy as well.

Sunshine Law violation, text messaging, and this is also another case where it was investigated by the state attorney's office and was found not to be a violation. So a little bit of a change of tide. A lot of these, once they get to the State Attorney's Office, I feel like they do find a violation. In this case, they were discussing what was being discussed was some it sounds like a convoluted process that they have there where the chair of the board can can tell another board member to, hey. Look into this and come back to us, you know, come back to the body about whether we should adopt a particular piece of legislation about whatever the issue is.

And so that was the allegation is that it wasn't substantive enough, this communication from one board member to another, for it to be a Sunshine Law violation because they didn't just continue to communicate back and forth about this potential piece of legislation that they might bring back to the full board. It was more of a task assigned, and then that person didn't communicate any findings or information back to the requester. So therefore, while, yes, they had a communication, and, yes, it was something that was gonna foreseeably come before them, it wasn't ripe enough for there to be a violation. And finally, there's a local lawsuit that was against New College of Florida over a violation of public records law, again, spearheaded by Michael Barfield, who keeps his eyeballs on all of us in this region. And he was awarded a $125,000 in attorney's fees after two years of wrangling over a lawsuit about whether text messages on personal devices had been sent, received, retained, etcetera.

So, you know, text messaging here in the city of Venice, I think we had our own experience with that. You know, we've tried to get very tight about it. It's easy to send a text message, especially when you all have your personal devices. You don't have Citi issued phones. Just try not to do it about your Citi business unless it's a temporal message, so something about a meeting. And if you do, screenshot it, save it. Those are the the k the not the cases, but the articles we have for this year. Take a look at them if you haven't already either. Short and give you some real world examples. And now we'll do the quiz.

Yeah. So we'll just take them line question by question this year. Are you do you want am I clicking, or are you clicking? Okay. So we're starting with Sunshine Law. The first question, after a board meeting, can two board members discuss an agenda item from that meeting? I gave you three options. Yes, no, and maybe. I alright. Click forward.

Yep. Yep. It's a maybe. So why is it maybe? Can you discuss an agenda item from a meeting that's done? Well, if that agenda item is never gonna come back before you so I'm looking at my planning commission members because that when I say because they have quasi judicial things, and they might go on to council. They might get appealed. So I say that can come back before you, so please don't discuss your anything quasi judicial until, like, six months down the road, and we know it's done. So if it's done, item is done, done, done, forking it, never coming back, yes, you can discuss it. But unless you have that confidence that it's done, done, done, don't have a discussion about it.

Be careful because, you you know, you never know. And some of you have a very limited agenda, so your items more or less keep coming back before you, maybe in a different format, but the same thing. Questions about that? All right. Two board members attend the same non city meeting that is relevant to their board work, but only one publicly speaks.

Has there been a Sunshine Law violation? And we haven't talked about this too much, but my seasoned members will probably know that the answer is Amanda, you can click. No. So if you're, yeah, out in the public and and one of your board members is speaking and you're just sitting there quietly listening and you don't comment, you don't ask a question, that's not a violation. Now I think some attorneys who are really strict about the Sunshine Law would feel uncomfortable about that.

I don't. Long as you might be taking in information and hearing from another board member, but if you're not communicating back, to me, that is not the spirit of a Sunshine Law violation. Now I will say if you and another board member are just standing outside and you just stand there and listen to the board member and the board member speaks to you, that's a little bit different. I think that's the context matters. That's starting to get a little questionable in my eyes.

So this is really speaking of a more formalized engagement where you're an attendee at an event. But don't think that means, yeah, you can go and meet up on Aisle 3 at Publix and let the other board member talk to you and you just smile while they speak to you and you're okay. Because someone's probably on Aisle 4, you know, listening and they might be named Michael Barfield. Don't know. Okay. Three, should two board members jointly visit the site of a project coming before their board at the next meeting? And the key word there is should. Should two members jointly visit the site of a project? Yep. No.

And why? Again, appearances. Even if you don't speak, even if you just drove together and you get out and you walk around and check things out, Appearances. Appearances matter. The opportunity for you all to want to discuss that thing that's going to be coming before your board when you're alone looking at it is too great. So don't put yourself in that situation. Don't don't jointly check something out that might be coming before you. Okay. We can move on to the next question. This is an over here, which is not a fundamental requirement of the Sunshine Law.

Amanda, you can go ahead and click. So it's D. So the first three are right off my slide. Fundamental requirements, open to the public, reasonable notice, minutes taken. Notice of each item to be discussed, that's what you want to do. You want to make sure that the public has knowledge of what's coming up on the agenda, but it's technically not a fundamental requirement of the Sunshine Law. Okay? K. So as I said before, you're allowed to talk to a staff member when you're a member of a board. So can a staff member act as an intermediary to relay a board member's position to another board member?

I heard a b, and that is the correct answer. So you can't you can't directly speak to another board member about something coming before your board. You can't indirectly speak to another board member about something coming before your board. So therefore, know, if you have a, let's say, a briefing, like each board member has a briefing with someone, a staff member, about upcoming agenda items. Okay.

That's okay. Totally fine. One on one conversations. But that staff member can't say, Oh, well, your fellow board member thinks this, or, you know, I think another board member might do this, so or you can't tell them transmit information similarly. So no sharing of board member positions or thoughts can happen even through a third party.

And sometimes you'll get this, depending on the board you're on, you might get a member of the public who said, Well, talked to that's where your hand should go up right away if they're going to start telling you what another board member thinks or a conversation they've had with that fellow board member. You don't want to hear it. The only time it's appropriate to hear opinions is up here at the dais. Okay. Not a penalty for violating the Sunshine Law. Hopefully, we all know at this point it is d. Everything can be a penalty. Just the stress of having you know, can you end up in a lawsuit where you absolutely did nothing wrong? Yes. You can.

But, you know, those hopefully will go very quickly, very short cases when it's clear that there was no violation. It's, you know, the hazy gray areas are the blatant areas that are just not worth the stress and the time and the fees. And this I think it's the last question on Sunshine Law. Can two board members text each other about the substance of an agenda item during a board meeting? I hope hope yes.

Hope we all got no. Actually, that was one of the newspaper articles. The communication was right during a meeting. People see you holding your phone and seeing another board member holding their phone at the same time, they might get appearances. Okay. Public records. Switching over. Public records. If your friend comments on your social media about an upcoming agenda item, what should you do? So this is your personal social media.

Maybe you've said something about your upcoming agenda item. Maybe you haven't. Maybe they're out of the blue saying, boy, I hope you don't vote yes on that item you have coming before you at your next meeting. Please preserve it. Don't delete it. Someone saw it besides you two. They're gonna know it's not there now. Don't respond to it. You're well, you can respond. If you wanna respond to it, been you can just say, hey. This is my private page. Please, if you have a comment, send it to my email, my city email address. That's okay. Don't don't do nothing. Make sure you because it could get deleted.

Take a screenshot. Send it to your city email. You're done. You can delete it then. Thank you, Tony. We just covered this one. Notes you take during a meeting and you do not share with anyone are a public record that must be preserved. True or false? False. Yes.

Feel free to take your notes. Now if you're the kind of individual who's been on the board for ten years and you take copious notes on your agenda items and you put them in a binder and stick them on a shelf, that might start becoming a public record because now you're preserving them. You're they have some value to you besides that. But if you just take notes on your agenda items and and eventually discard it within a time frame of, you know, a couple months, then haven't shared it with anybody, you're you're fine. So feel free to to take notes.

K. Remember, we're and this is public records question. You send an email to a fellow board member regarding an upcoming agenda item, but the board member doesn't reply. Is that email you sent a public record? Yes.

Not a Sunshine Law violation, but it is a public record. It's close to being a Sunshine Law violation because you might have kind of either I don't know if it's a friendly email or an unfriendly email, but the other person might want to respond, and then you have a public record I mean, a Sunshine Law violation. But the act of just the email, it's a public record. You may use your private email address to send and receive emails related to the business of your board. Yes.

We would say don't do it. Brightline, don't do it. So use your city email address for anything that you want to send or receive related to your board. Alright. Under an hour. That's always my goal. So I'm happy to answer any questions now anyone online or in person might have about anything we've talked about. Otherwise and I know we have a question, but, otherwise, again, feel free to reach out to me or the clerk's office at any time. Yes?

Yes. I have a question about boards. Not I mean, say I'm on board a and then somebody else is on some other board for the city. Alright? And they will meet me in the store, and they wanna talk about what's going on in my board, are they in violation?

No. So if you're on separate boards

Separate board. Yeah.

Then you can talk to that person anytime, anywhere about anything, and there's no violations.

And so but they wanna talk about the board, what's going on in the board.

Yes. You're fine. As long as that person is not on your board, you can talk to them.

So you're talking about so, actually, what you're saying, the violation is when you're dealing with those on that board, on the same board that you're on.

Correct. So the people when you're sitting up here Right. Those people, when you look left and right, those are the ones you're not talking to except when you're up here about board business. If they're different board, different day, different time, different topics, you can talk to them at any time about their board, your board, another board, you're free to do that.

Okay. Thank you.

You're welcome. Yes. And so it is it's tricky. But now if you're sending each other emails, then it's the the emails are a public record, but you can do that too. But yes. So it's the communications is just between the board members of your board. So you can talk to anybody else. They can another board member from a different board can give you input, advice, requests, that's okay, assuming you're not dealing with a quasi judicial, which is a different thing, different day. Anything else?

Kelly, if I could just make a comment to everybody. If you don't know how to access your city email or you haven't done so for a while, contact the clerk's office or the IT help desk. I know a lot of you don't have regular business or as frequent business, and we hear from people that they have issues accessing your city email. The best thing to do is to access that regularly, which you should be doing to make sure there's no communication. So just make a point of checking your city email regularly.

If you get booted out or forgotten your password, you can't do the forgot password option. Contact the IT help desk or contact the clerk's office, and we'll get you in contact with them. But it is important to remain active on that city email while you're on the board.

And I know I can say the city appreciates your voluntary service on these boards and that you came today and that you are listening. So again, thank you, and hopefully we don't ever have to worry about any of you violating this or accidentally or intentionally. And for those of you who are continuing with your board service, we'll see you again next year. Class dismissed.