Lodgers' Tax Advisory Board - Regular Meeting

12:04, we'll call to order. Looks like we have approval of today's agenda. Were there any questions about the agenda that we have for today? None? We'll go ahead and do we need to do a roll call vote since some of us are online, or can we just do a yay or nay, Ellen?

If I unmuted myself. Let's go ahead and let's do roll call real quick and then, get to the motion side of the agenda.

Excellent. Can you go ahead and roll call for us?

Yes. So, Ellen Felton, staff liaison. Larissa Breen is here. She's a county attorney. You wanna speak for yourself over there? You can unmute yourself. And Sonia.

Hear me or no?

K. Yeah. I'm here.

And then we can go online and go through everybody who's online.

Kevin is here.

Great. And it looks like we have counselor Hand online as well. Alright. Perfect. So for, approval of today's agenda, Sonia? Yay, Renee? Yay. Kevin?

We don't really have a quorum to do anything, do we?

Three three is a quorum.

Three zero five

Oh, who is the third who is the third person who's here?

Sonia. She's in person at the

Oh, I see. Gotcha. Gotcha. I missed that. Yeah. It's it's okay.

Yeah. So so it would be a motion in a second that you're looking for.

Oh, sorry. Move to approve. Anyone? Anita first? Thanks, Ellen.

Yes. Second.

Was that a first or a second? I'm sorry.

I think we thought you were the first.

Okay. Perfect. Alright. Sorry. Sonia, yay, nay. I apologize.

Yes.

Great. Kevin

Yes.

And myself. Yes. Alright. Today's agenda is approved. Thank you. Review and approval of meeting minutes from our last meeting on July 15. Did anyone have any changes or amendments to those meeting minutes? Alright. Sounds like none. Can I get a motion to approve?

Approve.

K. We have a first from Sonia. Can I get a can I second?

Yes.

Alright. I'll second that motion. And can I get a yay or a nay from you, Kevin?

Yes.

Sonia? Yes. And a yes for myself as well. Meeting minutes from 07/15/2025 have been approved as presented. Next, public comment. Is there anyone with public comments in the room? Ellen?

There is not anybody here in person.

Okay. Great. Then we'll move on to our boards and commissions training. Larissa.

Right. Can everybody hear me okay? I'm up at the podium. I'm seeing next to Ellen anymore. So first of all, can everybody see the opening screen to the slide presentation?

This is we're gonna basically revert back to the nineties and do this PowerPoint version, But hopefully, try to keep it reading off the sides to a minimum. But it is kind of important that you be able to see and, like, follow along. So if at any time you can't see or you can't hear me, please don't hesitate to just jump in and let me know. I want to make sure that we have opportunities for you all, not only just to participate in the discussion about these items, but also to answer or for to ask any questions as we go through these things. Because I always think it's better to ask the questions in the moment when we're actively engaging in discussion on that topic, rather than waiting until the end when maybe the time has already passed.

And it's harder to kind of dig into what the question was. So just raise your hand, get my attention somehow, Ellen can flag me down. But the purpose of this training today was mostly to accomplish a few things at one time. As you all are aware, there is a Boards and Commissions manual or handbook that we make available to you all that provides kind of a high level explanation of all of the governing law related to boards and commissions and the work they do related to the procedures that the boards and commissions follow, as well as the individual purposes of boards, commissions, and additionally working groups and subcommittees. So that manual is extremely helpful to refer to if really you've got any questions with respect to what boards can and can't do.

You know, start there. And then if we need to get into more detail, that's what Ellen and I are here for. But I wanted to sort of grab a couple of items worth discussing, I think, from the Boards and Commission's manual, hopefully just to give everybody a little bit more confidence about how we move through these meetings, how we can maximize our time together, as well as hopefully get into some of the Open Meetings Act and some of the enabling legislation for our boards and commissions. Because I know sometimes when we have rotating members joining, lot of times some we, members may have the advantage of having had the open meetings training, others may not. And so hopefully today, you know, we can at least give you all enough to where going forward you feel kind of empowered, you know, to apply these concepts during these meetings.

Because you all are are discussing great things and, you know, have some great initiatives underway. And so my goal today is to help to, you know, allow you all to maximize this time and also to keep us within the bounds of what the code of ordinances allows. So without further ado, Ellen will bring us to our first slide. So in addition to the enabling legislation that is in the County Code of Ordinances, the New Mexico state statutes have also created legislation that basically gives birth to these lodgers tax advisory boards across the state. So this is something that, through the state statute, can be established in any state, and create a board that reflects the needs and sort of makeup of the community, a cross section of that community.

However, there are some basic guidelines that the state has codified. And then Los Alamos Code of Ordinances, in its own version, has mirrored. And essentially, you you all know all of this, which is that two members of the board are usually owners or operators of lodgings that are subject to the occupancy tax. So does anybody know on our board who those two members might be?

Dana and Sonia.

Yes. Alright. Perfect. Good. How about the two members who are owners or operators of industries located within the unincorporated area of the county that provide services or products to tourists?

Nobody feels super confident yet. That's okay. That means maybe we just can there's opportunity for us to sort of maybe get more familiar and and see who's actually making up our board as well as one member who's a resident of the county who represents the general public. And do we have one of those within our our board?

Kevin. Right. Kevin. Yep.

Exactly. Alright. And and, Kevin, you know, it's sort of like, we kind of get a bonus with you because we know that you have some some background and some knowledge about a lot of the things that other members of the board have. And so we have a very knowledgeable member of the public, and I think think that that is definitely an advantage. So essentially, the state statute, what advisory boards, or specifically the Lodgers Tax Advisory Board is intended to do, is to advise, you know, the the deciding body.

So in our case, the county council on how to spend money related to, you know, lodgers tax, essentially. And how to use that for the purposes of advertising, publicizing, and promoting tourist attractions and facilities, as well as making recommendations to counsel for the expenditure of those funds that are authorized under the lodgers tax. So essentially, you are, in some ways, a subject matter expert, or certainly a source of tremendous wealth of information, experience, research for our council. That's exactly what these boards and commissions are designed to do. Because counsel, they retain a lot of information.

They have to do plenty of research. They're having community members have conversations with them. And it's simply too much, I think, to be responsible for all of these kind of nuanced areas. And so that's where our boards and commissions come in, to be able to sort of take that off their plate and be able to make those recommendations to counsel, and counsel being able to rely upon those. So it's a very important job.

And the next slide, I think, will continue to develop that idea. So of course, under the County Code of Ordinances, language is very similar to what is in the state's version. We didn't reinvent the wheel with that. Kind of the same idea that we're going to provide citizen input to staff and council on the ways in which we can improve how our county uses lodgers tax funds. And that's really important distinction from the state version, because what we're talking about isn't just sort of a general how we can expend lodgers tax funds around the state of New Mexico.

It's based on our community's needs. This legislation allows us to do it for the purposes of Los Alamos County, that it doesn't have to be the state as a whole, that we're really just doing it on behalf of our community members. And also, in addition to advising, recommending things to counsel, reviewing and weighing in and sort of researching and becoming familiar with lodgers tax related matters that either may be submitted to counsel or being considered by counsel. And certainly, just like I said, as a subject matter expert, kind of staying ahead of you know, where the county is going or wants to go with respect to how we expend these funds. So next slide, please.

And here's what I think is probably, you know, as important, if not maybe more important, than serving as a subject matter expert. It's how serving on not just the lodgers tax advisory board, but boards and commissions generally, is a revered form of community service. It's so vital because all of you are, in addition to the expertise you bring to this board, you're also bringing a citizen perspective to one of the activities or interests of this government. This board is not something that's a third party to the county. It's not a contractor to the county.

This is actually a board that has been created under the umbrella of the Los Alamos County Code of Ordinances to serve this very particular purpose. And so when we have citizens filling those seats, we automatically can have some assurance that we are representing the needs, interests, and just sort of general attitudes of the community. Also, as some of you may have already experienced, just being a part of this board, or any commission, working group, subcommittee, it familiarizes you with your community. Because usually, as you have come to see, some part of your purpose, some part of your responsibilities is going to involve gathering and interpreting, figuring out what to do with data that perhaps other members of the community don't have access to. It also makes you maybe more aware than most people about what the needs of the county breaks down to into numbers, or see how it's reflected, again, in information that is brought to us through other experts in the field and individuals or businesses that we work with to further our purposes.

We may have come into this feeling like we know what the county needs and what this board wants to accomplish. But we really get to fine tune that with the access to the information and conversations that we get to have. So additionally, there's a lot of people like to I hate to command you the word, but a keyboard warrior. Somebody who likes to sit behind their screen and talks about all of the things that the county should do, or the government should do, or things that they wish that were different in the community. And, you know, you can always find somebody who's willing to drum up problems, people that are willing to talk about, you know, solutions that they think are so obvious.

You know, why haven't we undertaken them already? But the practical reality is that, we rely on boards and commissions because you all will learn, if you don't already know, the nuances of what makes maybe why certain solutions aren't practical for our community, maybe why solutions that seem obvious don't work. In other words, you get to not only identify the needs of the community, but you can identify solutions that actually work, because you have that informed opinion. And really, at the end of the year, or when it's time to make those reports to counsel, what we want to be able to show is that we have taken steps. We haven't just identified problems, but we have taken steps towards those solutions.

And that we know that they're road tested because we're the experts. We've talked about them. We've vetted them. We have the information. And so that we can go forward, if we have confidence, then we can advise the council that they should have confidence as well.

And also, it's just an opportunity to be part of these important decisions that our county council makes. Government, and certainly our county in particular, contains a lot of moving parts. Certainly, is sort of the deciding body that we think of as sort of the be all and end all. But a lot of what they're making decisions on, the information that they receive, is based on these boards, these commissions, and the conversations that you're having and, you know, the recommendations that are coming forward from those. So, through just those early stages of sitting on the board, and as you start to develop a work plan, and you take action on those work plans, and then you're able to advise counsel, I mean, these are all ways in which one person's idea catches on to a few people, catches on to a few more people, and leads to maybe a recommendation to counsel that they can then use.

So it's a very, very potent opportunity for our citizens to be able to make noticeable change in our government processes and the quality of life in our community. So next slide, please. Thanks. Now you all are very familiar with our work plan. And so it's dense.

It's overachieving document a lot of times. There's certainly many, many line items that sometimes you look at the plan and just wonder how you're going to hit them all. So I wanted to kind of just take a step back with this slide and sort of remind us all kind of what the purpose of that is. Because maybe if we sort of see what it's intended to accomplish, it's a little easier to see where our focuses be, or just to kind of assess the progress that we've made. So ideally, the work plan is going to address problems, challenges, and really that need that we talked about in the community, as identified both by council, but also by other departments, other boards and commissions, from community members.

That really, that vocalization of that need can come from any number of places. But it's pulling those all together in a place and saying, this is what we think kind of the sum total of the problems are. It also is goes back to what we talked about. Instead of having these vague ideas of how to solve the problem or coming up with ideas that are not realistic for our community, the work plan puts into code, if you will. It solidifies ways that we are going to measure success.

How we're going to determine if a solution is working. It's where we really, really take these lofty ideas of what we think should make something better and actually put them to the test and establish whether that's actually helping. And if so, like, how much progress are we making? How much or how little? You know, is the metric working?

Or is there a better way to track this information? And, you know, it also, in having the work plan and having it come from the brainstorming of the board or the commission in their conversations, taking it to counsel, what we're doing is making sure that everyone has alignment as far as what the board, the commission, the department is working on, and what council is hoping to accomplish. And if you think of all of the different boards and commissions that we have, sometimes one board might just have one piece of a problem and or an issue. And then perhaps maybe, like, the transportation board has the other side of that issue. So the idea is that we're not just only working to advise counsel of what's going on and how we're meeting their goals, but also how we're working with other boards, other commissions where needed in order to meet that need when it doesn't just fall on us and making sure that we're kind of attuned with what they're trying to accomplish as well.

Additionally, you know, it kind of helps to just in terms of resource assignment, the work plan gives us an idea of how much legwork might be involved, how much research might need to be done, you know, what how much harder Ellen's job is going to get over the course of time. But really, you know, it it's also just and we want to be able to serve you in in every way that we can. And so the work plan gives us an idea of how the kind of support you all will need, and how we can make that available to you. And of course, when you all put together a work plan, it is you know, you all agreeing to work together on this. It's something a shared document you have created and, creates a sense of unity and sort of, you know, alignment just within our own board as far as what we want to accomplish.

So next slide, please. Now we're getting into more of the open meeting conversation. And so what I thought would be helpful is is sort of looking at the state statute that underlies all open meeting legislation around the state. And I think every county has some version of this, and I'll go into that more on the next slide. But the the heart of open meeting the Open Meeting Act, open meetings regulations, is that we have a government that is premised on being representative.

That we want people, when they vote, when they take a stand, when they support some initiative, when they are participating in government, we would prefer that they be informed. We would prefer that they know the context of these the decisions they're asked to make. And we believe that people can only benefit the government, the community can only benefit more when the information that people have access to is the best possible. And so what that means is that the actions of the government, the conversations that they're having, the things that are going on daily here in this building that affect our community, that we would distill down to the official acts of our employees, of these officers, of the elected officials, to the appointed officials. Everything that these individuals are doing should be available, at least, to the electorate so that they can make decisions based on the best possible information.

It benefits everybody, but it also gives confidence to the public that we have nothing to hide, that we are transparent, that what we're doing is above reproach. And so it really protects both sides of the issue the public as well as the members of the government. So next slide. So Los Alamos County Council, every year, adopts a resolution that sets forth the requirements for what is going to constitute notice for the purpose of Los Alamos County. It may be similar from year to year, but every year, counsel will decide basically what the requirements for notice will be, that every board, commission, county council, decision making body, all agencies that are subject to the Open Meetings Act, the rules they will have to follow.

And this occurs annually. So it wouldn't be much help for you to look at the resolution from 2022 or 2023. Because that, although it may not have changed significantly, is an out of date document, technically. What you should be working off of is resolution twenty five zero one, which is the one that was established for this year. And, you know, it will only be good through the end of this year.

So every year, even though the Open Meetings Act legislation as far as state is concerned, the ideas, principles behind it stay the same. The actual specific rules about what constitutes notice, what is mailing notice, publication notice, what kind of notice has to be provided for emergency meetings, for special meetings. That all gets out by way of this resolution that sort of lets those boundaries be set and modified every year as needed. So next slide. And so we've kind of delved into this issue of rolling forums lately.

In some of the conversations we've had about how we set agendas and how we're able to sort of accomplish accomplish business or make sure that we are on track for our meetings in between meetings without inadvertently stepping on this rolling quorum rule. And so the concept of a rolling quorum is essentially that when members that would constitute a quorum. So for the purposes of this board, we have three people, perhaps at least, are engaging in any discussion of public business. So anything that would normally need to be on an agenda or discussed in a meeting outside of public access, where it is not open to the public. So specifically what we're talking about is email chains where the entire board is CC'd on it.

Or, you know, you happen to meet for coffee or something, maybe at Starbucks, and you're with one other member of the board and two others walk in, and before you know it, you know, you're standing there with a solid quorum of the lodgers tax advisory board. And to the extent you even touch on anything that relates to this board's work, you're in danger of violating this rule against rolling quorums. So the rolling quorum definition really requires that there be a discussion of public business. So like I said, something that would normally be placed on an agenda, which might be proposing actions that are going to be taken on a particular agenda item. Or it might be whether to support or not support another board member's idea that they vocalized in the last meeting.

However, I think that where it can get really insidious and nitpicky is even something with agenda setting. Because if one person, you know, to the entire Lodger Stack tax advisory board group email puts out of nowhere, well, I've noticed that if this issue is really important in our community or I wanna delve into this part of this issue more, that is yes. You know, I it is legitimate for a board member to offer up an idea for the agenda. However, depending on how you couch it, it could be inadvertently putting this issue ahead of issues that have already been raised, that have been discussed in perhaps in the last meeting, we said that on the next agenda we were going to talk about X, Y, and Z. And then we have this email from a member saying, I think that this needs to be a priority.

Well, they've sort of inadvertently shifted the priorities, or what we've told the public the priorities are going to be, just by recommending when an agenda item appears. So the conversation about whether something should be put on an agenda, why it's important, Those sorts of things, you know, you can always step back and say, it's not business. We're just talking about, you know, what what line items we wanna see on the agenda. However, you know, it could affect what we've represented to be the priorities and the steps that we are going to take on upcoming meetings and, you know, components of the work plan in the future. So all of this is to say that, you know, really, where possible, if you want to communicate having something added and we'll cover this in a later slide but if you want to communicate with the chair about seeing something put on the agenda, something about scheduling, something like that, Communicate with the chair directly and include Ellen cc'd on that email.

Because you and the chair, he was a board member and the chair, that's not enough to constitute a quorum. Ellen is our staff liaison. She does not, for the purposes of a rolling quorum, count towards our majority. Obviously, we have five members, and it would have to be three actual voting members to create a rolling quorum. So we're protected from that.

Additionally, the member who has the idea is able to generate that idea, and then the chair, as the chair is perfectly allowed to do in setting the agenda, can take that into consideration. So like I said, it's very, very common for Ellen to email the board specifically when she's sharing information, or the upcoming agenda, things like that. However, when we have members starting to respond or have discussions on that group email, we are always kind of at least brushing against the possibility of creating rolling forum issues. So like I said, communicate with the chair directly, include Ellen on that, and they will ensure that we take the appropriate action based on what we can and can't do. So next slide, please.

I question got on that one. Is is there does a board member other than the chair have any ability to ensure that an item that will be placed on the agenda?

They can't override the chair. No. So as we you just happen to have timed that question perfectly because the chair usually will cons the chair consults with the staff liaison to set the agenda. That being said, a board member can always request to have an item placed on the agenda. However, that would need to occur in the if the board member, was really insistent upon it and wasn't just confident, like, well, I'm just going to email the chair.

I'm going to see if she's willing to add that to the agenda. If that if they think that it needs a more aggressive approach, then I would say you would need to wait till the next meeting. Because what would have to happen is, you would make that request, and it would be up to the rest of your board members to either decide to not take any action, to not put that on an agenda, to modify that request or modify how it would be added to an agenda, or to the other members can ask for more information or sort of fine tune that request. So an individual member cannot mandate that something were override the chair. However, if they use the forum that is a meeting with their other board members to sort of feel out the idea why it's important, you know, kind of garner some support and provide additional information, then it would be reasonable, if not obvious, for the chair to then put that on the agenda, because you have the support of your other members.

But other than that, an individual member cannot override what the chair and the staff liaison set to be the agenda. No.

No. I didn't ask if they could override. I just asked if they have any right to place an item on the agenda.

No. No. That's that's They have no

so they have no right. The on the chair is the only member who has any right to put something on the agenda.

Well, it's not about right. It's about who has the authority with the

Has any authority or well, right. Why is right not the correct term? I mean

Because you're not entitled to that. This is these are legislation that has been established solely for the purposes of effectuating the role of the board or the commission. This isn't about exercising any entitlement or privilege on behalf of any of the individual members. The board, the business the board is focused on, is what is the priority of the community. And one person cannot unilaterally assert that that is something that is deserving of agenda time, without rightly then having to have support from other board members.

Because remember, this board does not act in its individual parts. It can only act and truly move things forward as a unified board. So that includes seeing things set on the agenda.

So the exception seems to be if you're the board chair or the staff liaison.

Exception in the sense that I the the chair, you know, the reason they have to consult with the staff liaison is the staff liaison is also mindful of the work plan. They're sort of helping to keep consideration of the other, you know, parts considerations that go along with setting the agenda. So, you you know, the chair isn't deciding every meeting what goes on for the next meeting. It's working with the staff to take, you know, well, what was said in the last meeting? You know, what what do you have as sort of the key subjects that the rest of the board wants to set.

And they really collaborate based on the feedback that they have gotten, as well as any other outside considerations that they may have. So the pressing nature of getting an action done for the work plan, or maybe there's an upcoming update to counsel that they need to keep their eye on. And so the need to prepare for that debrief or counsel may trump another item. And so they're just better equipped to sort of keep an eye on all things. And then, of course, we wouldn't get anything done without a chair, because they're finally there has to be somebody who's entrusted to sort of take the lead with that.

So it's not necessarily a satisfying answer. And I know it's something that particularly very, very active boards really struggle with. But a good chair, as we will talk about, is mindful of the ideas and contributions of other members. And so hopefully, these ideas that you're if somebody feels really strongly about, the chair is going to give plenty of airtime in a meeting and an opportunity to be supported. K. Next line.

I think counselor Hand has a question or something. Yes. Counselor Hand.

Hi. I'm sorry to interrupt. I, I know I'm not part of this training. I'm I'm just the liaison, but I did have a question about the previous slide. Sure.

Yeah. So if you could, so you're talking about rolling quorums, and I think this is a subject that is, confusing to a lot of people. And the fact that you have, that it's so you say the act's requirement for open public meeting applies to any discussion of public business among a quorum of a public body's members. And so when you're saying any discussion, my question is, is that any discussion of public business related to what is on an upcoming agenda either through like, if it was council, it would be, like, the tickler where you have, like, three weeks of items that are, identified that there will be decisions made on those items, and you don't want to have, you know, a quorum, talking about it prior to a vote. Right?

But Right. What if it's not on an agenda? What if it's it's just another subject that has come up, you know, for discussion, but but it isn't on any agenda? You know? How how do you address this very broad statement of any discussion? Because it seems like people could get in a lot of trouble if they were called out saying, wait a minute. You've got a rolling quorum on such and such an issue.

Sure. Yeah. And and you're right. Like, the the and this language is actually taken out of the advisory opinion that is issued from the attorney general with respect to the Open Meetings Act. I guess I would not advocate that it's necessarily the clearest, most satisfying definition.

But there are a couple of ways. And I think if we kind of break it down to everything that has to be present for there to be a rolling quorum. Of course, it has to be discussion of public business. So that means that even if you have a quorum of people, if you're talking about the upcoming baseball game that people are going to be watching that weekend, having a quorum is not a problem, because you're not discussing public business. Another way that this shows how kind of not how difficult it is to create a rolling quorum, but how it's actually getting to that point is would require some effort, Is if you have two members, perhaps, of like a five member board could be discussing public business, but we don't have a quorum of those.

So what I would say is if somebody feels or a member of council like yourself, counselor Hand, or a member of the board or commission feels really strongly about something that is not yet identified on an agenda, you know, we're not only talking about, well, do we give it this much time, do we give it this much time, or do we have it before this, or how do we implement it, then the safest course of action for that member would be to either take it directly to the chair, or to make sure that in discussing that item, that they're just being mindful of the fact that they need to do so in less than a quorum. There are different ways of having that conversation that may be effective without needing to have a majority of that public body present. This is only saying that when you have you're at that quorum requirement, you do have to be mindful that you are not discussing public business. And like I said, scheduling gets really dicey. Because if it's really just truly scheduling, how much time we're devoting to this, does it go before this, does this go after this, we put it on the next agenda.

If it's truly just timing and scheduling, I think an argument could very, very reliably be made that says that's not public business. However, I think just any time that you are in a quorum, I think you do want to be a little bit more measured and a little bit more, I guess, conservative about how you would define public business. But certainly, if you have less than a quorum, I think that that's, that is your safety there. So, like I said, it's really only a problem if you've got that quorum, you know, if you've that quorum as present, and you're discussing anything that's even on the line of when something should be scheduled. Because it's really easy to go from, well, that might be taking putting too many items on this agenda, we might need to move that one over to this one, or this one's going to take longer than we thought, can really easily get into, well, my interpretation of what was said in this meeting is that this is really important to this group.

But I think it's actually more so it's easy for it to sort of evolve into a discussion about what is worthy of agenda time and what isn't. But if that's not a risk, then I think that you can toe that line very carefully, you know, if you're just mindful of, you know, whether you're you're starting to get into more substantive issues.

If I can ask another follow-up question. So so, basically, the, you know, the rolling quorum really becomes the issue if the the body, the, you know, board commission, council, whatever, actually holds a vote on something and it passes, that somebody could claim that there was a rolling quorum before the vote. And so it it's it becomes moot? Or can you explain really what what happens to Sure. You know, to have somebody, you know, accuse you of a rolling quorum or, you know, what what's really the, the issue with this rolling quorum?

You know, why why are we avoiding it, and, you know, what what is the, I don't know, the the

penalty The doing. Outcome we're trying to avoid. Right. Sure. That makes that your question makes perfect sense. So what is how does this sort of naturally play out in a way that becomes problematic? What would that look like?

Right.

So,

you know, let's say that a party had come in and made a presentation to counsel about getting support for a particular project, getting a vote, or really advocating for something. Where we might see that is, if counsel is perhaps considering a recommendation from the Planning and Zoning Commission, and perhaps the commission had made the decision to not approve the application, you know, it comes before counsel, you know, if the applicant is savvy enough or aggressive enough about pursuing what they want, they could make an IPRA request and look at all of the email communications. And if they're savvy enough, would be looking for any conversation like, well, it looked like at this point, the council agreed that they weren't going to put it on this agenda because they didn't think it was important. And so they could all it would take is something like that for them to glom onto, like, well, it wasn't a priority for counsel. They'd already made their mind up, and so therefore their decision must be invalid.

Because from these emails, we can see where they talked about putting it as a lesser important item on a different agenda. It would be very easy for somebody to take some emails from an IPR request, put together that some decision that did not favor them had been made unfairly, and then they would appeal the decision, either from counsel or from the Board or Commission. And then we would be in the position of defending that it wasn't a rolling quorum, that the decision stands, that it's valid, or alternatively, that the decision would be flawed in that there was a rolling quorum, the applicant did not have due process and have a fair opportunity to present because of this rolling quorum, and as a result, the decision is invalid. So it would take them not liking a decision, and then they would basically work backward and somehow demonstrate that a rolling quorum had existed. So the less fodder that we give them through emails and phone calls, or anything that can be replicated, the less we do that, the better chance we have of, if somebody doesn't like the decision, being able to poke holes in it.

Thank you very much. That is great to have that additional information or clarification about how rolling quorums work.

Sure. Yeah. And a lot of people wonder, like, so what does this what does this look like when it goes wrong? And, basically, it's just, you know, we would have to be put to the task of defending a decision. And it could be a decision that we fought really hard for, that there was a lot of contention on both sides, and it took a lot of process and review.

And it's really unfortunate when a lot of resources get devoted to something like that. And then we can't easily defend where we were coming from just because we weren't mindful to just sneaky rules like this that sometimes just when we're all trying to get things done, it can be easier at other times more times than others to remember this. So but, yes, always happy to keep answering questions on this one because it is a tough one. Right. If you think of something later on or I don't know if anybody else has questions. Now would be a great time to chime in on rolling quorums.

I'd just like to ask if this situation like, let's say that they actually were there there was proof that there was some sort of a rolling quorum and that the, decision that was made, on a particular topic, was invalid. So it basically, it it didn't pass then.

Mhmm.

Are there any, chances for lawsuits or, you know, any kind of legal action when something like that happens.

Certainly. Because we're not just, you know, looking at somebody. So there's a procedural error, of course, which is that this person made a case. The decision was flawed. We reached the wrong outcome. Just on, like, a a level of principle, there would be sort of the not symbolic, but sort of just procedural. We followed this process. This is where there was an error was. Therefore, the outcome is invalid. And then there may or may not be the applicant may or may not have to, you know, resubmit an application, or we might have to go back and redo something.

However, to the extent that that person has perhaps sustained legal fees they wouldn't have normally had, they their business was detrimentally or, you know, had some detriment to it through hearing this process out, they could absolutely assert damages as a result of this procedural error. And granted, their chances of prevailing will be better if the review falls in their favor, that the decision is invalidated. But even if it hasn't been, they can always say, like, well, because the county wasn't transparent in what they were doing and they didn't take due caution with respect to open meetings, now I have all of these damages. My business has taken a hit. I can't afford that.

And they probably would, I would think, make a take a stab at recovering through litigation, in addition to getting the procedural judgment. Thank you so much. I appreciate you expanding on things. You're so welcome. Those are great questions.

So thank you for asking them. And so, Ellen, I think if we go touched on so now we're gonna kinda talk about running an efficient meeting and just sort of really getting the most out of our time together, as I say when we have 38 left. I think the rest of this stuff should be pretty common sense. But just some things to kind of bring to the forefront is that Robert's Rules of Order, which is an enormous book that if you ever have any desire to read, we'll be happy to point you in the direction of, really comes down to a couple of key concepts. And it's the idea that everyone on a board has the right to participate in the discussion if they wish.

The chair is not the only person who is allowed to talk. The co chair is not the second person who is allowed to talk. Everybody has equal right to express an opinion, to ask a question, to develop an idea. Additionally, everyone has the right to know what is going on at all times. So if you do not understand a piece of information, if you are not entirely sure what the issues that are up for discussion are, ask for clarification.

Because chances are, if you're unsure of what is going on, what the issues are, what is before the board, any members of the public or the audience that are present probably also do, has been my experience. So, everybody has the right to be aware of what is happening and feel like they're part of the process, they haven't just been bypassed or kind of run over. Additionally very, very basic one, but only one item can be discussed at a time there's a reason we sort of go down the agenda in kind of line item order. And that's mostly just so that the record can be really, really clear, or the minutes can be very clear about what we decided with regard to which item at each time. Because we can't do the, well, let's come back to this, let's go on to the next thing, because then it gets really hard to keep a clean record about what was decided as to each item.

So next slide, please. So what does that translate to in the meeting? So, you know, we're we're having one of our regular meetings. We've got a few items on the agenda, and we wanna put Robert's rules into action. So what this would look like is, if you are unclear of whether something you're allowed to consider something, or if you should be discussing something, what you can do and this may come up in the form of maybe you're presented with new data.

Perhaps a board member recommends something be included as an exhibit that has been brought in during the meeting. Any time that you're unsure, like, you know, while we're we're discussing this issue, and if I understand correctly, it sounds like, you know, we are stuck on this idea, and these two board members agree with this concept, and we have the rest disagree. You know, sometimes it can be a really good way of just sort of slowing down and sort of regrouping in in a discussion. It's just, okay. So we need to pause.

Let's make sure that we're all discussing the same idea. You know, we are talking with respect to this agenda item, and it seems like we're stuck on this issue. When in doubt, think out loud. Put it on the record. Make it in the minutes.

And certainly, if you're reviewing or talking about a document that you want to be in the record of those meetings, identifying it in terms of the title. I'm looking at this document with this page number. And if you were having a discussion that and you had some data to support your argument, this would be really, really important, because we would want to be able to know what you're referring to if you bring in some outside information. And then we can also, like I said, make it part of the record so anybody reviewing that meeting can know what we were speaking about. So the second part of it or second part of this is, you know, we often not very often, because we don't do quasi judicial stuff much as part of this board.

But there may be situations where we have to follow a certain approval procedure, or there may be some kind of special meeting or emergency meeting that may call for us to have to follow a certain process. And it's completely understandable. I mean, figuring out how to run one of these meetings on its own, just a regular meeting, is difficult enough just to kind of keep track of do we do a roll call vote, or what happens now. Certainly, we're doing something special or procedurally different, this is where I can be really helpful. If you don't really know how a meeting is supposed to look for a certain agenda item, I'm happy to assist you in helping to prepare a script so that the record can be clean, and so that the chair, or whoever is tasked with running that agenda item, or participating in it, feels comfortable following the process and making sure that our record is sound.

Also, certainly when we only have the short time together, where possible, trying to keep time spent on routine items like approval of the minutes, approval of the agenda as short as possible. You know, there we do want a clean record, and it's absolutely important that the minutes reflect the content and the outcome of the meetings. However, should we be applying the level of scrutiny to that such that it's hindering our preparation on other agenda items or our discussion on agenda items? You know, we're eating our own time there. And so unless you have something really substantive to object, you know, the call for, you know, a move a motion to approve the minutes, and then a second shouldn't be like pulling teeth.

I know it's hard because we don't often have everybody present. But unless there's some reason you're holding back, then keep it moving and be that person to speak up. And, you know, this is kind of more for the chair or the vice chair. But, you know, don't hesitate to call for a break, or, you know, if the discussion has gone off the rails a bit. You know, say, I'm now requiring that individual remarks by board members be kept to two minutes at a time, and before anybody gets to speak again, we make sure that anybody who hasn't spoken, we hear from them.

You know, the chair has that ability to sort of gatekeep the meeting when it fails to be productive anymore. You don't have to entertain the discussion ad infinitum at a certain point. You can just start imposing some reasonable limitations. So next slide, please. Which brings us to motions, which are topics for discussion, the things we're deciding, the things we're being asked to take action on, or the approval or lack of approval of a certain course of action.

Any member can introduce emotion when something is on the table. So, if we there's the question is approval of, let's say, the minutes or the agenda, any person, or any member of the board can make the motion to approve it. However, in order for it to pass, a second has to be considered. What happens when there is not a second, is that the motion essentially dies. And it has to be disposed of in some means by the end of the meeting.

It's either got to be passed, we got a first or we got a motion, we got a second on the motion. It failed, maybe perhaps because we couldn't get a second on the motion. Tabled, meaning that it's been definitely moved to another date and time in which it will be taken up again, referred to a different committee for consideration, or postponed. But there has to be something about the motion. We don't just get to abandon it and go, well, we're going to go on to the next thing and see if we can come back and see if there's a second.

You know, we want to get in the habit of disposing of things as we get to them. And so this goes back to sort of saying, this is why, you know, when nobody moves for a second, you know, the clock is ticking before we assume that that motion has been defeated. And so now we've got to figure out how we're going to rewrite the minutes or redo the agenda so that it gets that approval, when really, maybe the only issue was, like, nobody wanted to be the one to speak up and say, I second that motion. So certainly on bigger considerations to approve certain action items, you know, to support or not support certain initiatives. You know, a motion may be a little bit more controversial.

But either way, anybody can can any member of the board can make that motion to approve and second. It doesn't just require the chair or vice chair's approval. Next slide, please. These are just some common motions that, you know, I will email this presentation out so that you can have access to this, because I think there's some stuff that is easier just to kind of go back and review. But this is just an example of how you can kind of move through the meeting, and how motions sort of look and are sort of used as ways to move through the agenda.

So introducing an item. So that would be, you know, when the chair calls for approval of something, that's your opportunity to make that motion, or that second. You don't have to wait until, you know, you've got the, like, nonverbal approval of your board members to move to table a motion. Anybody can make that request. Worst case, that you wouldn't get support on that, and your request would be denied or defeated by the group.

But anybody can make that request. Some other motions that are sort of good to be aware of, and some that I think may be applicable for the future, is this request for more study. If you as an individual are reviewing information that has been presented, and it's you really don't feel like you understand it enough to make a decision. There is nothing wrong with either reviewing it to the referring it to the staff to sort of refine that information, give you more information, or to request for an opportunity to table the action item to a later meeting and allow for further review. We want you all to be making decisions based on being informed, just like the public.

So if you feel like you need it, speak up, because there may be other members who feel the same way. And of course, if the meeting just kind of devolves into absolute chaos, and we're so far off the subject that we don't really know what the subject is anymore. Anybody can call for what we refer to as a point of order, which is basically we go back to the chair, and the chair is you know, it's kind of like a way of saying, we've gotten off task, like, you know, chair, I we're deferring to you to sort of get back on course. And then it would be up to the chair to then kind of go back like we talked about and say, okay, well, I'm now imposing time limits on individual remarks, or I'm going to close this discussion at this time. But it essentially puts the ball back in the chair's court to sort of get things back under control again.

Okay. And next slide, please. Which brings us to voting. As you all know, this is very, I think, straightforward. Each regular member has one vote. No proxy voting is allowed. You have to be present to win. And of course, Ellen and I do not have a vote, so we rely on the five of you to keep things moving, because we can't do anything about that. You are sort of what keeps our pace, and keeps our initiatives on track. This sort of goes into conflict of interest territory, but you cannot vote on any policy in which you may have a financial interest.

And, you know, we'll usually call for that, you know, before we start hearing a matter, you know, just if anybody, before we have discussion about it has any sort of personal or financial interest in any of the parties that are identified, in any of the entities and the material. But if you have a personal stake in it, you must abstain from the vote. That's just basic code of conduct. And the same thing applies to every other member of every board, and it's usually taken up before they'll start the hearing or talking about an issue. So, of course, this is fairly straightforward.

Votes are only taken on issues that have been discussed. We have identified what the action up for decision is. We've had the discussion on it, and there has been a motion and there has been a second. The chair can't say, Well, nobody seems to be speaking up for a motion or a second, so let's just get to a vote then. You don't get there unless you've had the motion and it's been seconded.

Whatever the motion may be. It may be to not approve it, not accept it, it may be to approve or move forward with a certain course of action. Whatever the motion is doesn't really matter, but it has to have a second to then go to a vote. And then, of course, as we do, all votes are conducted by a roll call vote, by a voice or a show of hands, simply because we have a we want people to be able to see and hear and know what your position is. And we don't do written votes because, obviously, that doesn't make any sense when we're a public.

We have the public openness to consider the availability to the public. And of course, we all know the affirmative vote of the majority is required in order for a motion to carry. So if there are any questions on voting or up to this point on motions, now I think would be a great time to chime in on that if you have any questions.

I have a question, but I'm I'm not on the board. So

Oh, that's fine. No. Anybody can ask a question, even Ellen. But Ellen Ellen's keeping us on track, so she doesn't have questions.

I I just want to make a comment about the second item there where it says a member cannot vote on the outcome of any policy in which he or she has a financial interest. So because some policies are very broad for the community Mhmm. You may you know, a particular council member or board member may benefit from a vote on something that affects the community. And my understanding talking with legal in a little more depth is that, you know, there are some caveats to this. And sometimes because this statement, this very simple statement, is put out there to the public, that there often becomes misunderstandings if it appears that somebody may have a financial interest in a decision even though it's a much broader public policy.

Yes. Yes. And you you raised a really important caveat that and I think the reason that this is so this is stated so generally here, is because you can get into a lot of nuance with this. Because we have a whole separate training on code of conduct that is sort of centered around this conflict of interest idea, because it is more nuanced than that. There's actually a very specific definition of what constitutes a financial interest.

And there has to be certain considerations that really, the person acted or took an official act putting their private interests ahead of the public good. But in actuality, the private benefit may be completely incidental. It just your own benefit to something, or you having good fortune is the result of a policy decision that benefits the public, you shouldn't be penalized for that. Because it's certainly just you're incidentally receiving the benefit, just like any other community member, and your benefit is not so disproportionately you know, considerable, or really anything that you had any control over just kind of is the way that it is, you can't be faulted for that. And, you know, there are also situations where and we've seen it on like planning and zoning where, you know, people will think that they have, you know, like, oh, well, I've worked with that person before, I don't have any current business with them.

You know, I they're a good friend of mine, so I don't know if that's really necessarily a benefit, or you know, I guess we could do business in the future. Like, there are different ways that this the discussion around conflict of interest can be very challenging. But the good news is, is if that ever presents, if there's ever a situation where you're unsure, what will happen is, you know, you'll introduce it and raise it during the course of a meeting. And the other board members, you know, after kind of hearing you talk through, you know, what your concern is, you know, will weigh in on whether, they would like you to vote, or think it's best that you abstain. If you, of course, choose to abstain on your own, nobody's going to talk you into it.

But simply benefiting from something that's going to also benefit most of the public, that would not be fair. And that would just be so overly broad that it would probably pick up any members of the board, as well as a lot of members of the community and the organization. So it does get more fine tuned. If we are presented with a conflict of interest issue, I can assure you we will vet it out, we'll have a discussion, we'll open the code, we'll take a look at it and really look at it from all angles. But this is just sort of kind of like a heads up, and it's not just financial interest, really, If you have something in a private capacity that could affect how you vote, you would want to raise that anyway, just so that, again, we're protecting our decisions and we're protecting the work that we do.

So thank you for that question, because it is very nuanced, and it's helpful to be aware of the code of conduct. And the manual does cover conflict of interest, as well. So that's another area, too, where you can look for more information. Okay, next slide. So this is more, you know, as part of the open meetings, and we don't think we've had a lot of public participation, but just basic questions that the public may be looking at.

I won't go through all of these, but take a look at some of them. And just be aware that when we have these public meetings, they understand very little, a lot of times, of the process and the reasoning for why we do what we do. So if there are ways that we can sort of acknowledge their participation, their attendance, you know, and really just I think if we really make an effort to represent the board well to the public, it gives them a great deal of confidence. And they will be more likely to support what we're trying to do, and just continue to allow us to do good work if they have that confidence. So just think about some of these things.

And if we ever have members of the public attend, then we will look forward to engaging some of these ideas. So next slide, please. And as far as working groups and subcommittees, they are not interchangeable. That's mostly what I wanted to sort of touch on with this. You know, working groups can be a really effective way of gathering information or research for maybe a piece of an issue that the Board is considering, or a specific idea, or if there's just a task that is not likely to be accomplished during the course of a meeting.

You know, chair of any board can designate a working group. It's got to be, of course, under the quorum. So usually it's going to be like two members, or it might be like a member plus maybe an advisor or some kind of expert in that area who can assist. There's no limitation on the advisors or experts that can participate, but it's going to be less than a quorum or two people or less from this board. And then they can sort of run with that issue and sort of keep the rest of the group updated as far as what they find from that.

If they make a recommendation to the Board based on their information that they find, it's not binding. It's not a decision by any means. It's merely a recommendation that the rest of the Board can choose to accept or not. A subcommittee, however, has to be created by counsel, and it's very, very finite. Of course, it's on a particular subject or a project, and it has a very definite term.

You know, it will continue for one year unless council elects to extend that term for a year. And again, their role is to advise sort of the board or council on an issue that needs a little more refinement or work. And so we've, in this group, of course, think come up with a few working groups to tackle some of the finer points of some of our work plan. And so if you're wondering what the regulations around that might be, this slide hopefully answers those questions. So next slide.

And this is another piece that will, I think, be more helpful when I can print out and provide you with the slides, but it's basically the catch all, trying to get ahead of the questions that you may have that you might think are too small to raise. And that there's no such thing, because this way of speaking, of interacting with one another, is completely unnatural. There is nothing second nature about it. And as you've probably seen, like, even as attorneys and like staff, like, sometimes we struggle to kind of figure out how to forge forward or what the next right step is. And so that's why we have the, you know, boards and commissions manual.

You know, I obviously am happy to sit down and like, look through portions of the code and to the extent that that makes a difference. But really, a lot of times, it's just knowing, you know, what options are available to you. And so on these last two slides, I've just kind of put a couple of things that I thought might be helpful for you, particularly to some of you who don't speak up a

whole

lot. Because I think that we when we start hearing from everyone regularly, and we're having good discussion and people are bringing ideas, then that to me tell would tell me that, you know, we're really doing some good work and that we're utilizing this board to that its absolute potential. So all of you bring something to this to this table, to this group. So if you ever have any questions about how you can participate better, participate more, If there is something as a group that I can assist with and give you more information about in my role, I'm happy to do so. I think we've got a really, really good team here.

We've got a wonderful staff liaison. We have everything we need for success. And so if there's anything else I can provide you in this outside of this presentation, please please use me. And so I'll I'll take any additional questions or comments at this time that I might have missed. Alright. I'll take that as, it's okay to move on then. Thanks, everyone.

Thank you, Laura. So that was great. I appreciate it. I learned a lot. That was fun. Any other announcements or board communications from anyone? I don't have anything from Jen. So seeing none, Ellen, are we able to move on to next meeting future agenda items?

Yes.

Okay. Great. Is this where we can propose future agenda items?

Yes.

Okay. Great. Are there any agenda items that anyone would like to propose for the next meeting?

I I wouldn't mind if if the things that I've already proposed as agenda items would be considered being brought into future meetings.

Okay. And I've a number I have you list those off so we have them for the minutes?

I I've made a number of those requests to Jen, but they but, you know, that's why I was curious whether we have any way if if something doesn't run the gauntlet of of Jen and Ellen to get something on the agenda earlier. But the all of those things, I think, are things that we should be considering. You know, things like how could we better utilize the data sources and systems we have to better understand visitor and tourism expenditures. That that would be an example of one of those. But I I certainly could work up work up a list.

I I didn't know that that was desired because usually, I I've I'm kind of becoming accustomed to them not really going anywhere.

And I'll I'm happy to just jump in on this real quick because I this is a perfect, I think, application of what we were just talking about in this discussion. But so, Kevin, what would make sense is if you took that list and if you sent it to the chair already and that hasn't received response or you sent it to Ellen, you know, and the chair, you know, you could certainly send it to another member of the board. You would just have to be mindful that you're not creating a quorum. So so as long as you're keeping it under three members, you know, you can communicate with your other board members so long as you aren't creating a quorum. I would still recommend that you just keep a mind to whether what you're discussing constitutes public business because if somebody were to make an IPRA request of these communications, you know, they would pull everything, not just the ones where there's a quorum.

And so you would just not wanna have anything communicated that that looks like public business. So if you're mindful of the quorum requirement, then you feel comfortable sending it to another member for consideration or discussion. That would be okay.

I'm just talking about things that would be useful on the agenda. We're you know, I'm I'm in my ninth month on this board, and the only thing we've recommendation we've made to council so far was on what our work plan should be. And so I'm interested in agenda items that actually get to performing our work plan at some point in time, which I I don't know that we've had any in nine months. So it's so it's a little bit concerning to me.

Alright. Any other potential future agenda items that anyone would like to bring up?

I can mention that I am planning at the next meeting to go through more of the items from the tourism strategic plan and their status. So that will definitely take up a decent chunk of our our next meeting.

Well, based based on that, you know, this I this hasn't been this is actually a good addition to the agenda, actually, having a place to talk about future agenda items. So one of the things I'll commit to do is to, regather and send a list of of of requested future agenda items to Jen and to Ellen with hopes that the they there they would be put on the agenda next time if need be to discuss making them agenda items and or whether any other board members care about the same things.

Great. That'd be perfect. Thanks, Kevin. Looks like that next meeting will be October 21 in the same place we're all sitting now. I'm assuming at the same time, twelve to 01:30. And if that changes, Ellen will keep us updated. Do I need a motion to adjourn, or can we

No. You can just call it.

Alright. We're calling it 01/23 adjourned. Thanks.