Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

So, let's call to order the uh January 5th historic district commission meeting. Um I think we need to appoint one or two uh of the off Oh, no. You're you're commission now. So, it's one, two, three, four. So, I think we're good. Good. Right. All right. Um

Well, if if if there's not a fifth, we would name an alternate Oh, here's a fifth. There's [laughter] um so first off approval of the December 1st meeting me minutes. Do I have a a motion? Carolyn second. I'll second

and I'll try to take notes. since we don't have monthly days. Okay. Um any any discussion on the meeting minutes? All in favor of approving say I. I. I.

I wasn't here so abstaining. Yeah. Hey. Uh, public comment. Do we have any public comment? No public comment. Um, co-chair's report. Uh, John, do you want to do you have anything?

Yeah, just a couple uh quick matters. Um [clears throat] at the last meeting we discussed uh submitting a memo to zoning at the museum's request. Uh the memo outline the scope of HDC jurisdiction with respect to CFAs and uh we Russ and I have have done that. Um, we have, uh, as you know from past discussions, the help of Elena with what had been a long list of of, uh, of tasks because when Martha and I met with her, Elena's uh, table was pretty clear and it's now filled up. So we will have less time uh from her than we thought, but we still hope to get some some assistance particularly in developing uh an Excel websheet that allows easy access to information about past actions we have taken property by property. Um that's all I had.

Okay, thank you. Um I had one item and that is uh we have drafted a letter to the Griswalds concerning uh the followup for the the shipo work that we did when basically the uh when we supported the Grisswall Point Historic District and I think everybody has a copy of that letter. Basically, it's a continuation of in support of their effort to to save the 1750s uh house structure. Um, and with with with an addition uh with a removal of a 1954 edition uh that would be converted into a into a um kind of a kitchen area and support for the 1950 structure. Um, I'm going to send that out. If anybody has any comments or concerns, please let me know. Any thoughts. Okay. And I think that's it. So, um, public hearing on 52 Lime Street, the milit Military Memorial Markers. We have a representative from the Duck River Garden Club. We're a little bit early. So,

a little bit early. Yeah. She may not be coming to a 9:15, but we could still discuss it. We could disc Well, all right. You want to maybe we maybe we till we just for a few minutes. Should we perhaps set the scene for the discussion of the of the zoning regulations and then get into the meat of that later? I think that would be a great idea, John.

Yeah. I mean, as as you know from emails, uh zoning is having a hearing next Monday uh on their proposed new re regulations and they're they're pretty dense. I have uh been through them and and uh Russ has been through them and what what you saw circulated uh are some discussion points. There probably are others. One thing to think about is just procedurally how would we want to proceed? Do we want to write up something to submit to zoning before the meeting? Uh do we want to attend the meeting to be there to answer questions about what we've written up or to be to present a statement and if so who's going to attend? I think it's I think we first should discuss John maybe today. I think I think some of the comments here were things that that we might consider or we might need answered, but I think today we should discuss what if any comments would go directly to the the zoning commission and and noting that we've provided input before to the zoning commission uh on certain matters. I think we wanna I think we want to be very specific and constrained in our our comments, but I think we should um highlight any any items that um strengthen the historic uh aspect of the new zoning regulation. um but recognize that you know this is their uh this is their document we have

our document in regulation. Yeah, I think the first two and a half pages of that four-page thing that was circulated um highlight possible issues to raise with with them. And Russ is right, some of them may be a bit too particular and picky to to to raise. Um, I know that I I goofed on one of them, uh, which can be probably cut out, but um, anyway, that's Are we up to the starting time for for the hearing? Not yet.

Oh, we need to stretch this. Well, any maybe any initial thought if if if folks had a chance to look at this and without going into too much detail right now, but just quick impressions.

I thought the comments were excellent, Joan. I was so grateful that you did it and I didn't have to [laughter] uh and even if some of the points are small, I think it gives us an overall uh understanding of how we would look at the document. So I commend you for all the work that you did on that. It's very very helpful. So the the the question is the right one. How do we proceed? What do we present to the zoning commission and when and how? I mean, as I read through that your document, one way would be to go through their document, insert your suggested changes in red or something so that they could see it all laid out because this is dense. I mean, your your comments are excellent, but they're also dense. So, that would be one way to do it. Um, another way is to is the is there going to be a vote on Monday or is this just a discussion? because we want our concerns I think brought up in or reflected in the discussion on Monday, don't we?

I think this is the first public comment. Is that right, John?

I believe so. [clears throat] I I don't know how many other hearings or or whether there will be an extension of the hearing. It's conceivable that I I believe this is the only hearing that's been announced and hearings can be extended, but if they hear all the comments Monday, then this may be the one opportunity. Um I'm Carolyn, I I did not draft attempt to draft statutory language. I mean that really is an expert, you know, an exercise maybe maybe for David or or somebody who's really into the intricacies of land use law. So that's an open question. Certainly some of the points can be can be pinned down, but I I I for one would be a little reluctant to suggest exact language. Um I mean detailed. We might have we might have some phrases such as uh shouldn't you take a take a line from the POC and use it to replace what you've you've got? But um I I don't know. I uh

Yeah, I see the problem, John. I see the problem. Exactly. And and it is legal language, of course. So, but I just was trying to get the zoning commission members to move from to be able to understand where exactly in their document we would like to see changes. Maybe that can just be done in an accompanying letter. Um, the letter will be hard to write,

right? Some of some of the changes uh some of the items refer to specific places in the zoning regs where the issue arose. Right. So maybe the letter could be uh you know HDC's overview concerns the PCD as you mentioned and revising the language about historic structures in a couple of places. You mentioned that that could be strengthened or you know clarified and then there could be a second section of the letter that specifies particular changes that the HDC would recommend or request. Would that be the way to do it? Sure. I mean, that's a sounds like a good possibility.

I think the term I'd like to use the term comments instead of concerns. Uh just as a Sure. In other words, I think I think the preamble of like the first paragraph needs to state, you know, why we're making comments. Yes.

Right. and and we need to collectively understand why we're making comments uh and and express it not in more more in a supportive role versus a concern role. Um and what do we as a commission think are the most important aspects that need to be communicated to the zoning commission about the new zoning regulation? I mean what and and I think John is kind of in and from my perspective it's it's basically um as I said you know strengthening the aspects about the historic district and I I don't see that as a concern. It's more of a a supportive um role unless unless we have a specific concern. Do you have any specific concerns? Well, the other the other general issue is our kind of our perennial one. The the historic district is a is a is is allzzed residential and particularly with regard to signs but some other issues as well. Um there are a lot of things that are not allowed under the zoning rags in residential districts that now exist. multiple signs on property, size of signs. Um I I view that as uh those as nonconforming uses, but from I can envision any number of scenarios where it could be awkward in the sense that we think something is sensible, but we can't override zoning. Um, so in some places it may be that there is the opportunity to ask for clarification in a way that allows us to do what we

think is sensible in the in the historic district. I know I'm being vague and and cryptic, but um one issue arguably comes up today with the with the Otabon sign. It's it's a it's a change from from what's what's there or what was there. um if it had reproduced in height and and size what was there, I guess I'm willing to say it's a continuation of a non-conforming use. But um

well, you you raised a good you you raised a good point about alignment. In other words, there are I I looked at some other towns and there are cases where the zoning actually has a historic district is is one of the district that was one of the zoning uh area. So, we're not like that. In other words, we're as John mentioned, the historic district is in a residential zone. It's not a separate um u historic zoning. So, and and and in those cases, the the zoning body actually kind of governs the historic district. Um, in our situation, I I'm not sure we're going to get total uh alignment. We should strive for it, but I think we give up some authority if if we um if we were never never mind. I see what I mean.

Well, we don't we don't give up authority, Russ, in the sense that we can always be tougher than the zoning rags, right? But I you know, you you have businesses in the historic district that are turn treated differently than businesses in a commercial district. And that's probably appropriate, but I'm just saying some of the we we'll see is I mean the the folks from Ottabon here at this point, right? Oh, all right. Good.

I mean, if they're if they're ready to if the if the other folks aren't here and it's time to start, we could start start with start with them. I mean, that's just a question I had. Yeah, let's let's let's do that and then let's come back to this. Can we make a mask? Yeah, please. Yeah. And do you have a CFA? There we go. I do. How are you? Sorry, that didn't go very far. So, here's the funny story about this sign. Yeah.

Same sign, same posts. Nothing changed except for if you had ever driven by it and you saw it leaning, then with the rain and the snow, it was leaning more and more. And we have bus stop there for the kids that come to our programs after school. And I asked her handyman, "Can you go look at it?" Because we had all the rain and then we had the snow. So I think it was like the first second week of December, he touched it and it was about to fall. So it was like falling slashfell over and it had been rotted. So I said just cut it because we're going to do a whole renovation as you know of the main building which will then will be coming back obviously for different thoughts. But we just cut off the rotted wood, cleaned it, he powerwashed it, and then just put it back up because we wanted to have our sign there. Nothing. The the wood didn't change. The sign didn't change. No, literally nothing changed.

The size and the height changed. The height changed. The size didn't change. The height. The height because the rotted wood because we didn't want to have to put money after money cuz it's actually expensive. To be honest with you, I was shocked at how expensive wood can be. And in fact, it was lowered. Correct. It was lowered cuz we chopped off the rotted wood. The bottom. Yeah. All right. Um, what what what is what's the size of that sign?

I would have to measure it, but it's probably four feet by five feet, three feet by five feet. Same sign that's been there. It's not a new sign. I I understand that the the concern that I expressed perhaps rather cryptically in the general discussion about zoning rigs is is that's a sign that this is just my reading as a non-speist of the zoning rags. It's a sign that's too large for residential districts. And because it was exactly the same as the sign that was there before, except for obviously identifying the occupant, we could treat it, I think, as a nonconforming use or a continuation of a nonconforming use. But my concern is, and this this is a really a zoning concern more than an HDC concern, is is that once you change any aspect of the sign, which is includes location or height, you know, you are changing a non-conforming use and any changes to a non-conforming use need to be approved by zoning. The difficulty is zoning says when you have a sign in a residential district that identifies the occupant of a property, you can have a maximum two foot square foot sign unless you get a permit. Well, but if you get a permit, the maximum size is square 12 square feet. a a secondary concern is it

it looks

very different from a sign up high on a on a on a pole. It it it to some eyes may look um incompatible with or just too big in a way that the sign that's way up high doesn't look because what when you see the the sign that's there now it it it sort of the size really jumps out at you or jumped out at me in a way that one up high did not. Well, it is temporary like I said because we will be renovating the entire building and we will be putting in a new sign as we go through the renovations. So temporary in the sense of

the timeline for I was going to say temporary in the sense it's going to take at least 12 to 18 months because we we have to go to zoning we have to go to HTC we got to get product all that stuff is there funding is it possible for the um assign to be go in earlier on the timeline than the rest of the the renovation

potentially but it depends on what's you know are we going to have people driving in and out is that going to affect it is there going to be any staging that has to go up there. I mean, I don't think that's going to happen, but I mean, yes. Um, but we kind of wanted to put the sign in as like, okay, now we're open again, you know, as a woohoo, we're here. So, it was safety that we had to pull it down, though, because it was going to It was And it had electrical on it, too, right?

Which we've shut off now. Um, do we I guess at this point I mean we we have it was an approved uh CFA back and and and this is a subsequent change. It's a continuation um with with I guess this would be a new CFA for the entire sign. So, I guess we would need a motion um relative to the CFA at this point. I know. I didn't see that C. Oh, you haven't seen it.

No, we just we haven't we first day back. Sorry. Martha said we could bring it in. Let's pass it around. to it. Makes me happy though people saw it. I mean technically I guess we would need a uh for a property of a we would need a drawing of the sign dimensions dimensions and so forth. Well, jeez, that CFA is strictly for the shortened sign with no lights.

Correct. It Well, it has a It had a solar We have two solar ones on there now for when we have parties and such. But, in other words, it's this it's the original structure, but that's all that's seeking, right? Well, it's it's it's approval of the sign as as with or without the solar lights. Well, we can pull those if there that's an issue. We just Well, but it had lights. It did. It had lights. Yeah, it had low. It had ground lights and lights on the top and and I remember it was leaning, you know, for quite some time. So, yeah, it's now

and then when it started really leaning, I got nervous. And and this goes to your point, John, about where our regulation and zoning are two separate regulations and may not always align, but we can't we can't approve things that would violate the zoning regulations. Zoning. We can be tougher than the zoning regulations, but we can't be weaker than the zoning. Weaker than the zoning. Right. Right. That's true. So two feet, is that what you said were taken off?

I don't know the exact I I didn't measure it. What I It was the same. The original structure there was the one from the B and thistle. So that's how old this is. We just put our sign, which we did get approval for. Saw all the specs and everything before we ordered it. But then because it's old. So we just

and white rotted apparently. I didn't look at it myself. So we just wanted to make sure that we still had our sign up and do it as economically done as possible. John, you were saying that we could potentially approve this CFA as a continuing use of a prior existing sign. And then I guess the issue is does the difference in height make it close enough to be able to do that or do we just send her on? Well, I guess my my view would be that it is it is different because you have a different height and therefore a different look from uh approaching motorists. But I don't know. I mean this is in a sense one of these it one of the questions I that is on that sheet when we consider the proposed zoning regulations is is uh or one of the points notes the issue of non-conforming use and and and the point that when a non-conforming use changes um the new use has to be conforming which would suggest a smaller a smaller sign. Uh assuming this one is more than 12 square ft. U I I suppose the only answer can come from from from zoning. Uh the only definitive answer if we're willing to um say okay if zoning if this is okay with this under the zoning rags and it's okay with us. The the other question I had David is is

just to reiterate that if it's a new sign and we I mean we have to approve it. It just looks different to me because of the of the the low low height. And that's that's just my personal view, right? I'm just trying to

I just don't know how we do we send how do we send her out of here today saying go get uh what what becomes of this CFA today and do we ask her to go get uh permission for or permit from zoning and then come back to us? Well, one thing we could do is continue the hearing until next month. And we asked Nerk Knap, "What's the story? Is this a a continuation of a non-conforming a non-conforming use?" Yeah,

that sounds like a good idea because we haven't had we haven't faced this before. I mean, you made a change. I'm glad to be the first. [laughter] you made a change in design without coming to us to, you know, to approve it. We understand it was for safety reasons and whatever, but nevertheless, it's now a CVA after the fact. But this is good to know though, too, because I didn't realize the height was going to be any change in any good though. That's good.

Yeah, that's a change in structure. So perhaps John's uh last suggestion is an appropriate one that we continue the hearing and check in with Eric Knap and uh perhaps ask Alicia to come back with a more specific um set of dimensions and description of the of the current change and and and I guess what's think what's in my mind is you're thinking that this is not the final right so this but but the problem is as a commissioner he approve a temporary sign. Right. Right. Our approval is for a permanent sign. It's a permanent. Yeah. So, we would have to approve this as a permanent sign. Yeah.

No, no, no. We I'm sorry. We can approve a temporary sign. In fact, we And time frame. Our statute our statute does not distinguish between

our statute does not distinguish between temporary and permanent signs. uh the fact that this may be up for 18 to 24 months would would stretch beyond any possible limit for separate temporary signs as found in the zoning. So even if we did have a separate standard, I think we would we would need to approve it for for that time period for for the for the temporary period. Okay. But we still want to uh as Carolyn suggested, we go with your recommendation that we continue this hearing. We follow up with Eric Knap uh and let her come back next month. So, we're not

Yeah, David. I mean, that's that's kind of the the only solution I can think of where we get a a decision on this question that we're we're comfortable with. I I just don't want to get in the business of approving things that would violate zoning regulations. I I agree. So, and do we need a motion to continue? Yeah, I think we need a motion. Do do we need a motion to continue, John, or I would I would say yeah, just to put it on the record that that we voted to continue the the hearing. When when was this CFA was dated when? Just recently.

Today. Today. Ah, okay. Then we have plenty of time. Then we [laughter] have time to Well, we just got back. Yeah. Yeah. So, can let's do that. Um and and I think part of the motion should have a request for um for [snorts] a draw for a drawing um of the the chain so that we have a the new height. Yeah. New dimensions. Yeah. So, can we get a motion? Or she could just Couldn't she just take a picture and specify what the what the dimensions are? Yeah. Well, I think I think we should have the dimension on it. I think we should have the dimension of the sign. Oh, yeah. I'll put the

because that's what's in question, right? The dimension of the sign, not the dimension. The dimension of the height of the the height and well actually the sign itself. So we have an idea. Is it more I can do the sign too. Yeah. I mean that sign has been approved. Yes. 12 the different structure height changed. So moved. Well well I need a motion. You stated it. Oh, well, I I need a motion from from somebody.

John, can you make it? Um, I' I'd say that the the we we move that the uh hearing on this matter be continued um with the request that uh the uh the applicant come in with uh specific uh a drawing with showing specific um dimensions of the sign itself. uh dimensions of the posts and um height off the ground or a photo

there. I mean there is another another zoning limit and I I don't I doubt the sign as currently constituted would run a foul of it. But no sign can be more than 10 feet above the top of No sign can be more than 10 feet above the ground level. That's another zoning rag. So again, on the tall posts, you probably were above 10 feet, but again, yeah, definitely. I'm regarding that as as as nonconforming. Do we have a second? Second.

All right. All in favor of continuation um with specific dimension of the sign uh and height of the sign provided uh for the continuation of of the sign and of the of the posts sign and post. Yeah. And and the height. All in favor? I motion carries. All right. Thank you. And just a quick followup, who is going to follow up with Eric now regarding conforming continued uses or nonconforming continued use?

I I mean, I'm happy to to email him. David, you got a background in this area of law if you I mean, could I run it by you first to to Yeah. Will you Will you email me? [clears throat] Let me remind me to do that. and then I can do it today and I'll get it started. [clears throat] Let let me let me let me come up with some language and you can just you can look at it and see if you think it's it's properly captures the the con the the issue. Okay. All right. All right. It may not be today, David. It may not be today. It may be tomorrow. But

that's fine. But before the next meeting, I guess.

Yeah. All right. Um, I guess we should go to the public hearing on 52 Lime Street there. No one's here. Um, but let's go ahead and review it, right? Um, there is a CFA for the installation. Let's see here. I have served you guys.

I read it. I read it online but I don't

uh this is submitted by the first selectman for the request uh by the duck river garden club to install two military memorial markers uh at town hall um as part of the blue star memorial highway program. One marker would represent armed service members who are serving serve or plan to serve and represented by a blue star and one marker would represent those who died in combat making the ultimate sacrifice. Um, the marker height is 7 foot 6 in with a octagon pole that's made of aluminum um that is 3T into the ground. The plaque, each plaque is 30 12 by 46 inch wide and both placed approximately 20 ft um from the street. And I think there's a map showing the location right here in front of town hall. And there's an image of the uh of the I guess the blue star sign. So,

so the sign they're going to be placed on either side of this spruce tree. Is that is that what they're proposing? That's what they're proposing with red, white, and blue flowers planted around them. They say that's negotiable, right? I think where is the flag pole and the memorial monument that's there now in relation to the south? It should be right in front. Oh, that's where the Okay. Yeah. So, that this is this is removed. So, that's here and that's there. So, they're they're quite similar in location. There is a uh there is a stone. There is. Memorial.

Yes. Very appropriate. And right. And would these be behind that? No, that will stay there. And these two would be on other side of the spruce tree. Got it. Yeah. as I understand it. Can we should we start out with a discussion with first question would be why [clears throat] there's a lot of rhetoric about there's a lot of wording about how the sign is appropriate to the purpose of the town hall although that purpose is never described. this that point is stated a couple of times but there is already an appropriate marker

um commemorating people who have served and died and I don't and these blue star highway signs were initially intended for the highway right for highways that's where for highways not for town centers so it seems to me a bit [clears throat] uh to to replicate what's already here to have even one let alone have two I think the scale of the signs enlarge. Yes, the scale would really dominate the whole

section in a way that that the town hall has already been um as already an appropriate marker. So, I'm not clear about why these additional signs are needed at this particular location to on one property. Yes. I mean thinking maybe Paul's road or somewhere else since it's a highway sign. Yes. Well, I think or even on the blue star. I mean what used to be the blue star on the highway. Perhaps it either exit or something like that if they really they're not just highway. I I remember reading that. Yeah.

They're they're in parks. They're they're sponsored by the garden garden clubs. But originally they were on the Oh, that may be correct. Yes, as far as I know. As far as I remember. I mean, I've seen them on highways. I remember when they went up on the highway. Yeah, there are there are pictures of of uh the signs I think from Sabbrook. Do you know where in Sabbrook those are? Across from the Cape, John. Yeah, across from And there's only one, I think. So, they're not on their town hall property, which is next to the Cape, right? Correct. Across the street. Yes.

It's still town property. Yeah, that's right. They do, just as a note, they do recommend that the historic district could go to Sabbrook to to view the signs, right? If but they provided us with a with a photograph,

right? We have a photograph. But if if folks felt like they would like to visit and and see see one firsthand that that's possible. But but to my earlier point, the one in Sabbrook doesn't replicate a pre another sign at that site. Whereas here we already have a granite marker and I realize one signifies um veterans

one who who have served or will serve the other but that's that's still an overlapping rate. I think the gold star is is this a service memorial? Yes, it says I I I read it quickly, but I think it says those who have served right and died. It does. I I just read it quickly. No, no, I know the gold star does, but does the the current memorial the current memorial says that. So, I just want to make sure it's overlapping on Do you want me to check just for sure take a picture?

Yeah. My concern is that Pete Exus get gets wind of this if we deny it and we all are blackfled or something like that. So, [laughter] well, let me ask this question. Is there there were a couple of other sites that they were considering in town. Is it

is what I'm This a lot of clutter. We talk about clutter. What what I'm hearing objection to the overlap uh and the the cluttering of that area. Is there another location in town that would be or in the district because we have perview over the district? North Green was right the Selain area that was one that was initially mentioned to us but that's that's not the the North Green is not in the district. It's not in the district. Right. That's right. Well, then they don't need a city. They don't need They just need the T. They just need town approval.

I got to say I that just seems very cluttered out there. I agree. I mean, that's a nice little corner the way it is. Do you have the text? I do.

In honor of the men and women who gave their lives in order to maintain peace for all mankind. Very nice. But it's not just those who who served. I you can tell from what I'm about to say that I have zoning rigs on my mind. Um [laughter] you there are one of two ways that this passes zoning. One is

if if we if we were to put this this here, one is that it's exempt. Certain the following signs are exempt under the current and proposed new zoning regulations if it is required or authorized under state or federal law or by the town of old lime. examples being traffic and directional signs. So the question is I don't I don't know for sure what was done at the zoning meeting where the garden club presented this, but I don't know whether the town actually authorized this sign or just sort of heard it and said, "Oh, that's a good idea." I know Martha signed the CFA application

represents the town to me,

but yeah, but I I maybe I'm being too picky. I don't know. If I were looking for authority akin to a statute, I would look for a more definitive approval by the the the the town. Um but anyway, if it is exempt, it's exempt for purposes of zoning. The second is that I see it as large enough. It's under 12 feet but over two square feet that it would need a permit if if it's not exempt. It seems to me there there are three direct a couple three a couple directions we could go based on discussion. One is simply to vote to deny it and thank the people and suggest they looked for an alternative location. The second is to again continue the hearing, request more information about why um the signs are particularly appropriate for town hall. citing at the town hall given the existence of of of a sign already and also asking for clarification about whether uh this is considered approved under the zoning regulations or requires a permit from zoning.

Don, I just quickly went through the last few zoning meeting minutes and there's no mention of this. No, it wouldn't be a zoning meeting uh minutes. It would be a board of selectmen. They took it to the board of selectmen. Oh, okay. All right. I thought you said they went to zoning first. Okay. No, I'm If I did, I misspoke. They they talked to board of selectmen. They to the best of my knowledge, they have not gone to zoning.

I think zoning's on your brain, John. [laughter] But but if the board of if the board of selectmen approved it, I guess I would have to say, "All right, it's it's exempt as uh a sign that's authorized by the town of Old Lime, but it doesn't meet the criteria of the other signs that you said were exempt."

It does. It's not authorized by state law. It's not authorized by federal law. The third or is by the town of old lime. It doesn't say or by a town of old lime ordinance. So, how does a town of old lime give its approval for for actions or things to be built? I would argue it's it's by a a vote of the board of selectmen. Right. And a motion carried three to zero. Did you hear that, John? The the motion carried three to zero. Yep. December 8th is when they went. The motion for the sign. What? But what does it say?

Uh it just says Mary Ellen presented on behalf of the garden club. U the idea to have these markers in place for the America 250. Uh I'll select expressed support. Misha asked if there would be any utilities that would obstruct the markers. Tree Commission and HDC will need to be consulted. Motion by Lampost to approve and purchase the sign. Second by Mishel. After brief discussion, Lampost made an amendment amendment to the motion to authorize Martha to sign the application um that would be submitted to HDC. Okay. So, I guess I'd say it's exempt because the town has approved it. Correct.

Crown has approved. They just approved. They just approved. signs. They didn't they didn't specify the right and recommission too they said would be consulted. We still have the ACC still has jurisdiction but they have any zoning concerns they have weighed is what it sounds like to me in terms of the size of the sign. Right. I mean, the fact that it's a I mean, even if zoning says it's approved and it's approved only for installation at the town hall, um I well, I don't know. I'd have to go back and read our

This is the perfect case that I was describing earlier that there's going to be situations where we have a different jurisdiction than zoning. And in this case, um, we have a jurisdiction. So, aren't we looking at what is it that we want to do as the HDC? What do we think is in the best interest of the historic district? And then the separate question is whether whatever we say that gets overridden by the authorization by the town. But aren't they two separate questions? What do we want to do as the agency? Do we feel like I mean I always go back is do we feel like the the proposed structure in this case is in keeping with the historic character of the district? Yes.

To me that's our overriding. I I agree. Yes. So that's the question that we have to answer for ourselves. I just noticed something. So my I mean several things we've considered in the past with signs on the town green is the notion of clutter that there are we don't the town perfect examples it's not appropriate to have too many signs in any one location regardless of their the nobility of their intent. It's about the the landscape.

So perhaps we would want to consider John gave us mentioned three options. the first option which is the HTC does not approve because there's already an appropriate sign on this property which commemorates the you know whoever the fallen soldiers and the HTC recommends that the garden club find a different location outside of the historic I don't want them then to go to S lane though [laughter] um because but even so like the cemetery or something was that ever did they ever consider the duck cemetery. They if they've they seem to have considered it, but they haven't approached the Duck River Cemetery.

But the Hall Road or a highway road is very visible trying to beautify, trying to, you know, pull it in as a town road rather than a state highway. I would think that that would be, you know, it would be with the flowers and all of that. I think that would be much more appropriate. So, for example, as you get off the highway coming to town, there's that big marker and the garden club has a sign next to it that So, perhaps that location would be a fitting one because it's near the highway. It's, you know,

156 or something like that. Well, I guess um we have we have the option of making a motion to approve or deny or we have an option for a continuation uh of the meeting. Um and I would need a motion. What? Right. What are we going to do if we continue? Clarify whether the town has or whether Zoning [clears throat] has approved it by date of Martha's signature or it passes.

To me, that's not a question. I think if if the if this the if the board of selectment unanimous unanimously approved it then the town is okay and and and from my perspective the town has authorized it and and would like to see it in this location. I suggest that the town and zoning may both be looking to the HTC for for guidance on this. I they are concerning with

worst case worst case is if if we say no it's not appropriate in this location and suggest they look at a another location they can come back and complain and make a case in person ask you know refile a certificate with additional arguments Okay. But any for those of us who may who may object, myself included, if the issue is just the clutter, right? Yeah. And over and redundancy.

Yeah. Right. And again, is it appropriate in supporting the his character of the historic district? I think fair question, right? To deny it, I think is appropriate. But what is appropriate that I didn't to deny it? I think is appropriate. Appropriate to deny it. So, we need a motion.

I'll make the motion to deny the Duck River Garden Club proposal to install Gold Star Blue Star memorial markers in the front of town hall. I think we have to include a a reason. Oh, we don't have to, but I think we should include right citing um the current redundancy of the message of memorial markers that I mean when was that one installed? I mean, that one's probably been here 50 years or something. And can we mention clutter too because

right in accordance with our sign our new sign policies regarding multiple signs on particular properties. the proliferation. That's a good word, our favorite word. And and and also that that the signs may be out of proportion to um to if you all think so, out of proportion to um the the the the site, the current site. Yes. But I I think David's got an excellent point. It's it's it's always wise to state reasons, especially if there's a a denial.

And do we want to mention in addition that the original intent of the blue star signs was to place them beside a highway and that there are other locations in town that would coincide with that with that um what goal? Is that part of the motion? [clears throat] I asking if we should include that as part of the the statement of reason the explanation statement. Yeah.

Okay. Do we have a second? Second. discussion.

I think we've had it. You You all keep freezing. So I I don't know if you can hear. I second. I'm just leaving room for further discussion. legis u a vote to Yeah. Are you going to read the motion?

Yeah. that the motion is um in the question of the Memorial Town Markers um in front of town hall um to deny the application um due to the redundancy of the memorial of the proposed signs with the existing memorial marker and in accordance with the precedent of reducing the prol proliferation of signs on a single property and just trying to get my notes here. Uh and the original intent of the um signs is placement on highway

blue star memorial signs. Blue blue star memorial signs. Yeah. Is it that's just our understanding? That's not it. No, these are not memorial highway signs. Yeah, these are different. Different. If you read the signs you went, you would see that these are very different and from the existing and also Mary is not here. She evidently was not notified that we were going to be put this on the agenda today or she would have been here so she could have explained it in more detail. So it was on the published agenda told her. Let's continue.

Reply to something normally was for other people are told they're on the agenda. It's hard to know when things are happening. We we had understood that she requested that we act at our next meeting when she appeared in December. It's true. Yes. And we agreed that we would act at our next meeting. So, well, let's let us withdraw the motion and continue this and let her make her presentation because we we've also and I don't want to put in there our misunderstanding of what

correct um we can proceed with the vote or if somebody would like to request to withdraw the motion and have a continuation and review of this at the February meeting. I think procedure I think procedurally the person who made the motion needs to agree to withdraw it. Um I don't see how it's

different than what we have seen around in our the CFA. We were given pictures from Old Sabbrook which looks like most of the blue star signs that we've seen. So are you saying that this is that it's different than what is presented in the CFA?

What I was saying is it's not a star memorial highway sign. Someone said it should normally be a hybrid because I just heard that comment made that it's not a hybrid gold star memorial sign and a gold star and actually we are honored that that would fall into the categories to qualify for vote. very historically, Reverend, especially with the 250th anniversary coming up. And um for those historians who have actually done the work, they realize um how lucky we would be to have these um as her pictures because it's an honor to have them. So they Dr. Berg had offered to buy them because there was a cost associated with that. about $5,000 for sign. No, 600 total, I think, for both signs. But they have they knew that the prices would be going up uh January 1st every year. January 1st they go up. Um so they wanted to um get an order in. They asked the board of selecting did a very nice presentation of the board of selection and we unanimously agreed that this was an honor and in honor of the 250th we should accept these signs and um spent some time outside trying it was snowing at the time but we uh put them back as far as we could. who did not want to um take away from the tree or the landscape and um also make sure that they learn safety. There still would have to be a call before you did

before they did any type of things um add in the public courts but um so were there relative to the because I can't tell exactly from the drawing but relative to the sploo street how far back are they are they in front of the sploo street there's a match but there is a map but I it's just going in front of this I couldn't exactly see it says 20 ft back from the site they're in front of they're in front of the they're in hard. One would be set for seven from the walkway that leads to the side door. The other one would be set 15 ft from the curb of the driveway leading to the parking lot.

That's still staggered. They're exactly the same. Both 20 ft back on the sidewalk, but equidistant with the tree in the center. So you're walking here from the walkway. It's 47 in off of the walkway. So it offers safety walk can't hit it or anything like that. And then from the curb we went back and tried to make it equidistant from so that the same on the tree. So it's landscaping wise.

Martha, one of the discussion points was the redundancy of the language of these signs with the memorial. that's permanently there now. Is was there any discussion or concern about that? [clears throat] You think that the memorial that there has any variation as the blue and the gold star?

It covers the the meaning of the two. Well, I think it comes from a different I I'm not sure the history of who placed this memorial here, but I know that um it's an honor to be able to accepted together who start my conversations. So, if you like information, I strongly suggest you wait and talk to Mary. They purchase signs And you told them that can you issue an executive order

just to override does not recommend acceptance of the request. And what does the town do? Well, not exactly sure what we would do, but we felt that this was an honor and that to have a nonprofit offer to purchase them for the channel so that it would be noted so that they would be up by the 250th anniversary. We thought that this was we I I don't think the commission thinks it's I think the commission agrees that it's an honor. I think that the what I'm hearing is the question is the location. Yeah.

Right. and the proliferation of signs on one property. We worked very hard with our regulations to make sure that there's not five signs on one property in the district. We've already have multiple signs. That's been a big issue that we've been working on. So to decrease historic mark which is right in front of the other side. Right. Right. But there's this other there's multiple signs on property whatever it is. That's what we're trying to work on. So, it has nothing to do with it being anti- gold star or blue star whatsoever. Well, I think she post I'll invite John and Jim to come so that we can all have a conversation.

No, I just read we just read the meeting minutes so we know all discussed it. Yes. That's so I'm not sure where we would go from here. Who who made the motion to Yeah. And you second? No. Oh, it's second. Yeah.

So, if Don had said that if we uh passed the motion which is on the table that then the Dr. Larden Club could come back with a a a request for that included more information or whatever. So that would be that was I think what my understanding of what we were or we could have a continuation for the hearing or or or the Duck River Garden Club could suggest an alternate placement in town such as on the north northtown green. [clears throat]

I I do I do think that um just as a matter of of uh of uh wanting to make sure we're making a decision with all available information and arguments in front of us that that uh rather than denying it and saying, "Well, you can come back and reapply," that we simply continue the motion for uh continue the hearing for a month and and let the the main proponent come in and and and make her case.

I agree. I mean, I understand if people are dead set against having it at the town hall, that's not going to make any difference. But I I I kind of think that we should uh try to try to hear all the all the arguments to to do that. We would have to um recall the current motion and we would have to make a motion of continuation just like we did on the last. Right. Well, what's it? No. What's the What's the We Yes, we would have to We haven't voted yet, but but there is a motion before the before the chair right now.

Yes, that either has to be voted on or with with withdrawn. And if it's withdrawn, we could then vote to continue the hearing for month. Assuming assuming that the CFA application was was signed so that 65 days don't expire before the the next meeting. Let's see. 12 18 128. Yeah. Martha, can you tell me other areas that the Duck River Garden Club considered in town? There was four. Yeah, they came in and made a presentation to us that there were four areas. Yeah.

But were there other were there ones that they actually went and visited and ruled out? Well, they came through me to set up once we we decided select felt that district was our first choice because of the fact that we could actually read and then the other town uh down at the other end of this district. you'd have to get out of your car to get down and that and we also thought that you'd had enough um traffic incident there. um that that would not be the safest place nor the most historic place to put them. And so we determined that this would be our first priority where what happened and are there other options? So, the town hall, the north green, what what else could what other appropriate what other locations would you consider appropriate for these 250th markers? Because if it weren't for the 250th, we wouldn't be doing this, right? So, it's a way of I think that we would I think that they still would come before us to ask if they put them on deck that they wanted to pay them. They wanted to do this for us and that they need to hang around them. They were the chairman. They're not here to make another garden. They're not supposed to require them. They might put some bulbs around or something that would not require a lot of maintenance because their group is also experiencing a downturn volunteers, people who just can't handle all the gardens at the lottery. So, I don't know. I'd have to have further conversations with Jim and John um as to what other places, but this was our we went through and Mary um And this is

what we felt was the most appropriate place to mark a historic recognition. Do we do [clears throat] do we know whether other signs like this have been pl where they have been placed? Have they regularly been placed at at town halls or as in Sabbrook, have they just pl been placed along elsewhere along a a a street? Uh or along the highways?

Well, I could go on to their website and determine that. You can say, do you have all the placed in other cities and towns? So, I would have to do some research on that, John. But I know Sabbrooks is across the street from the town hall and I believe it was like I'm not sure exactly where it was there. In fact, I have a meeting with Carl Bar now and I'll ask you why it was placed there. So, um that's town property. It was the site of the former police station. It's now a parking lot across the street from town hall. Across Main Street from the town hall.

Yes. I'll um Ted is there. I'll go check it out, but I will ask him why it was placed there. The reasoning. Okay. So, again, I I I think at this point, um if if we would like to have a continuation, I would we would have to request that the current motion is withdrawn or we would have to proceed with the current motion. And I think since Deb, since you offered the motion, it would be your request to withdraw. [clears throat] I'll make the request to withdraw.

Okay. The motion as stated in order to continue the public hearing. So, you're making a motion to continue the public hearing. Yeah. Do we have a second to continue it? Do you second? Ed seconds. Okay. All in favor of continuation. I

I I would also suggest that that um at the next meeting the presenter be requested to [clears throat] provide um more information about other possible thoughts and give the commission a sense of how how common this is to appear at at at town halls where perhaps there's already another another memorial existing a memorial.

All right. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Um let's see on uh one other Can I

Go ahead. Go ahead. um regarding the motion and for the um I mean the meeting minutes for December when that did go to the board of selectmen they said they were consulting us and the tree commission. Now remember when we did the install down the road regarding the roots of the tree and all of that. So that is something else that we should be taking into consideration. I don't know when it's going to the tree commission, but they're talking two signs that are going to be around this tree. So, I would think that that would be something else that we would want their input.

Yeah. Why don't we put that in put that in the in the minutes that that uh we we would like information about the status of that request and the potential impact of sign installation on tree roots uh for existing trees. I mean commission that's right that that was a serious issue on the southtown green. Yes. Tree commission meets the third Thursday of every month and I don't know if it's on the agenda. Is it our understanding that these posts are set in concrete?

Sure they would. It just said 3 ft into the ground. It didn't say. I don't think. Yeah. But I think it's our understanding. Yeah. Typically that's how it's done. Well, they're big heavy signs. Yes. They they would have to secure them. The concrete would disrupt more of the root system than just the post two of them. Yeah.

All right. Um let's see. We're a little behind [clears throat] now. Um we've been covering the zoning zoning regulations as we go, but um maybe we take a few more moments to go through the zoning regulation because that's coming up on the Well, so we needed to

Yeah. continue that. Okay. U Martha Martha's uh secretary's report since she's not here will not be presented in person will she'll just submit that to be included in the minutes. So that that item doesn't need discussion that item on the agenda. I don't I don't think

correct. So um let's let's continue with the zoning regulation discussion. Uh starting out with there is a meeting on the 12th. Are there any materials that we would like to submit to the zoning commission prior to that time? And the third question is do we want to represent and will somebody represent us at the zoning commission on the 12th? I think those are the three uh fundamental questions. Maybe we start with the easy one first, the last one. Um should we should we publicly um make a a statement on the 12th or should we submit something in writing

or both? Or both. Any any thoughts on that? And let's answer that question first. Well, ideally ideally I think we have to have a presence there. Um, and and do we want to submit something in writing and then have somebody present that? And that's been done before. Yes.

But do we feel like that that would be necessary for this or or just a statement in writing to the commission? I I like I like ha the idea of having something submitted to the zoning before just because that way you can can really pin down the the phrasings that you want to that we want to use. Um, I don't I don't know in in these hearings whether the zoning commission will simply receive statements or whether they will engage in a in a conversation. Um well well

if we if we do present something in writing then I think the any any oral statement could be very very brief just maybe highlighting the main the main themes in the overarching themes in in the particular points we make in a written statement.

Right. Um, in the past I I've submitted uh presented to the zoning commission on behalf of the historic district commission and basically read a very brief statement that we that we crafted. So I guess the question is um if we have a more detailed response, we would also need if we're going to make an oral presentation uh maybe a summary statement of that or we just provide a detailed response and again it's it's whether or not we feel like it's do I guess to submit to the zoning commission do we have to make a statement at the meeting and and for the submission? I don't think so. I think we could just submit in writing [snorts] and that would be sufficient.

Would it be stronger if if we do both to have a just as you said a summary a summary statement at the meeting at the zoning meeting in addition or as a followup to a more detailed it it it makes a stronger point and I guess I'm questioning whether or not we need to actually make a stronger point at this point in time. In other words, we we've made strong points with very real issues. Yes.

And I'm not sure this this rises to that we need to make a strong public uh point here. I from from my perception it's mainly comment on the on the regulation and that we reserve our our gunpowder so so to speak uh when when there's a more serious issue facing the historic district commission that needs to be brought to the zoning commission. My only uh response to that, Russ, would be that the um a stronger recognition or acknowledgement of the role of the historic district commission or the importance of the historic district in the zoning rags might be important going forward whether it's for the train or as John mentioned whether it's for the train or for other reasons.

That would be a reason. Right. If if if we feel that um we need to drive home that point and have it in the meeting minutes of the zoning commission relative to the train and things like that, then that would be a very valid reason to make the oral argument as well as the written submission.

Everything is difficult this morning, right? Nobody has a clear-cut answer on any of these issues. Well, I I I mean, I agree with with with Carolyn. I think it's stronger and I I think the the I I do think some of the points that would be made in writing are are significant and they could be highlighted and they could be done very very quickly and in you know no more than a page of oral comments that that really highlight and then just refer for refer zoning to to the written statement for more detailed uh suggestions.

Okay. So, what I'm hearing is that we should have a summary oral statement that's the preamble of the more formal more detailed statement. So, unless we feel that that would be harmful, you know, I think that we we should go ahead with it. But I'm not that, you know, I I don't want to make that call. But if it's if it doesn't work against our interest, for example, we're expending too much gunpowder. Now, as you said, um if there's not a reason not to provide a summary statement, then I think we should go forward with it. The meeting is the 12th, right? That's a week away. Yes. So, we And who is going to prepare the [clears throat] statement? John,

that was my next question. Who's preparing and then who's presenting? Unfortunately, I'm going to be out of town. Uh, I'm gonna be in Atlanta at a business meeting. So, I can't do it this time. So, I don't feel I'm the best person to do it because I'm not versed enough in zoning regulations. So, if there were to be questions, I don't think I'm the best person to answer them. Um, John, you're not going to be here. He froze. Yeah, I think John's not back. So, Um, so [clears throat] you want me to do it? I can if if you would. Yeah. Um, I can do that.

Okay. Monday night the 12th. We keep talking about the 12th. It's on the 12th. So, David will present a summary on the 12th. All right. So, but who's going to I I am not volunteering to to draft it to draft. I mean, I can I I'll certainly have some input, but the original right initial comments. [clears throat] Well, let's let's talk about what should be what are the and and is John back? John's back. So,

you guys you all keep you all keep freezing. So I when I do this it's like you're frozen. I can't hear anything. Well, you were frozen too, John. So So to update, John is uh David is going to offer the summary uh oral presentation on the 12th. Good. But we're but we're talking about who's drafting the uh proposal and what needs to be in that draft. both the summary and the detail.

Well, let me reiterate a point I made before. You know, this is a massive document. I went through it quickly. I'm not in this area of law. Um, so I I'm really reluctant to to in a written statement um suggest definitive language. I I may have I may have [clears throat] missed some things. And um when I tried to scan for particular terms, um my my computer only scanned up through page 94. It pretended the rest of the document wasn't there.

[clears throat] So after page 94, it's really based on my my quick quick reading. Um, and it would be helpful if if somebody is able.

One one one thought I had is what if we created a summary statement of the comments. um but then request more time to the zoning commission to follow through with a document that has a more detailed response. In other words, to have that follow the meeting and not be the detail.

I've missed I've missed you probably missed what I said. I've missed the entire discussion after after hearing that David was willing to to uh present. What what I was suggesting, John, is is there is there an option to present a summary uh orally and written, but that's short before for the 12th, but then request that we follow that we will be following up with a more detailed um document to the commission so that we

Well, I don't I don't know how that if that works. If they close a hearing, if they say, "Okay, we've got the comments. We we have a timetable. We're closing the hearings." They will not accept written statements. Right. Do we think they'll actually close the hearing? We don't know, but we I think John's right. In case they do, we have to submit. We have to submit. Okay. Right.

I I mean, I'll try again. I'm I'm willing to write up the detailed more detailed thing based on on what I have here. But um I I do this with with a request for help in scanning the main document. When I tried to scan it for the word historic, it only let me scan up to page 94. and uh with the understanding that I I I I am not comfortable suggesting detailed [clears throat and cough] wordings for them to use. I think that crafting of wordings is left best to an attorney who is versed in land use law. And um but but we can at some point just highlight highlight issues that that are important to comment on.

Yeah. It it seems to me that less is more here. Uh in other words, like a bullet point of here are the should be good. Yeah. Here are our concerns that that that we try not to draft a very lengthy Right. [clears throat] I think that's great. So, a summary overview and then a list of bullet points of the most important things that John has highlighted in lay person's language. Exactly. Not attempting to be legal. Yes. Right. I think that would be great. So, John, could you do that? and and I can assist John. Um I I missed that. I again missed I again missed the whole discussion.

John, could you just provide a list of bullet points in lay person's language for the ideas that we would like to have considered uh as as in a final document when whenever that document occurs. So, we have a summary of our major concerns and why we're commenting and then a list of bullet points of the most important topics or ideas that we would like to see added and that's all I I so maybe 10 bullets or fewer again you cut you cut out I heard I'm supposed to provide I'll text you John I'll text you. Yeah. Okay. But could could

I think John will do it. Let's just move on. Is it is there time for the commission to flip through this and give some guidance as to what points you think are worth and what what points are so trivial that we ought not get involved with them based on what John has already submitted here. Yeah. I I as I said

in other words I I suggested 10 point possible points to make to the commission. One of them is is un [laughter] one of them can be ignored because I I it really relates to something that's not applicable in a commercial district. And that's that's point eight. And I kind of freestanding sign.

Yeah. I didn't phrase I didn't phrase it well really. It's really a the concern there is really with the limit zoning limitations on the numbers of signs in residential districts and um if they're if they want to limit the number of signs I I don't I'm not sure that that's our our purview. Um good. Well, we can just leave that out and and focus as Russ said at the beginning of the discussion on those things that are most important to us as the HDC.

Do we know can some do we know can somebody figure out whether we are in any part uh any part of the historic district is in any of the three um overlay zones? Yeah. Isn't the whole town in the flood plane zone? Do we need to address that, Joan? I don't I don't think we need to address that. I don't think we need to address that. I think that's getting into the weeds and we could just highlight our our recommendations.

But but the point is the point is if we are there's a provision in in the gateway zone that refers to historic structures. Maybe maybe we don't maybe that's covered under point two. Wait a sec. What do we know if we were in the gateway already? I think there may be some overlap with Lieutenant River. Right. Right. Right. But yeah. Oh no.

I think there's some overlap. I I just think we need to wrap this up. We we're we're not really making any forward motion here, right? So, I suggest that um that John draw up a list of 10 bullet points that he thinks are the most important and then circulate them to us and I'll send him a text right after the meeting to clarify to to clarify that or Russ you can do that. I'll do that. Yeah. And that we then move on and the only thing David is going to present. That's great. And the document that John will the draft that John will I think it needs to be like a total like a two-page document at the most. I agree. Okay. At the most I would say

I would say in condensed fashion the fir the first uh the two points two three and four should be included. Um let's hear that. We can probably omit five, but it would be good to know if we're in the historic the gateway. I'll check that down. Yeah. Um Ross, I don't know if you have time to look at language about illumination if we if there is a general one sentence point to be made. I will. Political signs is one that I thought we might should discuss.

Right. Right. Quickly. What's the concern with political signs? I I suggest we may want to leave that out. It's just it's just a thorny thing and it raises a new set of issues. I think we don't bring that. I don't think we include Yeah, it's been quiet. So, seven's out. Yeah. Eight. You don't even want to raise political signs. Okay. No, I don't think so this time, John. No. [laughter] Eight is eight is out. um

if you're knows for certain that we could uh pursue a wayfairing sign under some other mechanism. The current zoning regulations provide for one like a a a multi- a multi- uh entity sign to eliminate the clutter at the end of the I95 ramp.

Wouldn't would wouldn't that come before us before us as a CFA wayfairing sign? I believe so. I think we should minimize. Yeah. But I I I I don't know whether zoning could could also approve approve it. Well, we we'll take we'll take a look at nine. I'm sorry. Well, we'll we'll we'll take a look at nine and consider that. Yeah. So, John, we're going to wrap up because you're breaking up and I think we've got a pretty good

handle on it at this point. Um, do we have any new and ongoing business? Russ, I just wanted to ask about the um the how we want to move forward in not now of course, but in the future on the demolition sign. So, I sent you and Julie, I think, uh, a draft of, you know, just to get it started, that discussion started. So, I'd like you just to keep that in mind and let me know if you want me to do anything further on that. That would be great. I also found I I found some examples of other uh historic district good examples for for demolition because we want to move on to demolition early in the new year as soon as we get the zoning behind us.

We were gonna have more important than realtor science actually. Right. I agree. Right. It's much more important. So at the next meeting, let's plan to have a uh detailed discussion of the demolition. Yeah. Okay, great. Um motion to adjurnn. So moved. Second. Second. Um all in favor. Caroline.