Parks, Recreation & Open Space Commission - Regular Meeting

here. Commissioner Kent here, Commissioner Trinkle here, and Chair Abbott here. As of right now, Brian Martin is absent.

Okay, very good. He often runs. All right, I'll read the land acknowledgement. Uh the city of Albany recognizes that we occupy the land originally protected by the Confederated villages of Lejon. Acknowledge the genocide that took place on these lands and must make strides to repay the moral debt that is owed to this indigenous people, specifically the Aloney tribe. We thank them for their contributions which have transformed our community and will continue to bring forth growth and unity. The city of Albany commits to sustaining ongoing relationships with the tribe and together build a better future for all that now make this their home. All right. And I see Commissioner Barton has arrived. So, he's no longer absent. Good.

I think we can move to the approval of the minutes. I don't know if there's a lot to be done on that. Approval of the minutes. I have a motion. I'm move to approve the minutes. All right. I second. Very good. Thank you. Okay. Commissioner Chan, yes. Commissioner Changf Frank, yes. Commissioner Kent, yes. Commissioner Martin, yes. Commissioner Trinkle, yes. And Chair Abbott, yes. Thank you. All right. And now it is time to open the meeting to public comment. This is for folks who uh have something to talk about that is not otherwise on the agenda. I see one in the audience. Is there anybody online?

Um, no hands raised online.

I believe we uh you have the floor. I when I said that, I didn't mean you Good evening, commission and and staff. I'm Peggy Mcuade, the current mayor of Albany, and I wanted to take a minute of your time tonight to personally say thank you to each of you for your service to our community. It's not always easy to prepare for all the work that you do and to attend these meetings once a month. The Parks, Recreation, and Open Space Commission is in a is a very in a very unique position as an advisory body. You have the opportunity to impact everyone in Albany from the smallest child through seniors. You encourage people to work together improving their neighborhood spaces through park cleanups. You recently guided the city through the street tree master plan, ensuring the health of our urban forest and equity in tree planting. You work on the urban forest management at Albany on Albany Hill, reducing wildfire risk while protecting wildlife habitat. You give us smiles and you make us feel good. So often recreation is an afterthought. It's nice, but we don't really need it. But we know better and we understand it is vital to the quality of life and to everyone's health, both mental and physical. So, I wish you all success as you continue your work to improve the quality of life in our community and thank you again for your service.

Thank you, Mayor McCuade. Any other comments? No. Still no one online. No one online. You will then No, we will close public comment and move on to uh no presentations. I guess item 51, the Thousand Oaks sidewalk reconstruction. Suspect we have a presentation. Sadly, tonight you have all the time you need, so knock yourself out.

All right, there we go. Good evening, commissioners. Thank you for having me today. I'm Allison Curo, CIP manager with the city of Almy's public works department. And today I want to talk about a project that we've received many requests for over the years. Um, but before I jump into kind of the the actual project, I kind of want to frame this discussion. Um, often when we come to this commission regarding sidewalk work, it's uh small changes, sometimes bigger when we have to do tree removals. Um, very rarely do cities that are built out as Albany have opportunities to do these this type of streetscape project where we're next to a park reimagining what a sidewalk looks like. Um, and so I want to kind of bring the the audience here um into that frame of mind when we're talking about this. We won't be going into great detail about the exact level of every sidewalk piece about which trees are happening where because we don't know yet. We're still in very early design. This is not even design. It's conceptual planning. Um we're trying to find an approach that best balances everybody's needs and wants um in the community both on the parks and open space commission, the transportation commission, the school district uh amongst all the other community groups that are out there. Uh, with that, I'm just going to jump into the presentation. So, the location of this project, it's located on Thousand Oaks Boulevard, uh, between Pomona and Carmel Avenue. Uh, the project limits are shown. So the kind of impetus of this project had also a lot to do with the incremental

improvements that have been done in this area over the last um period including early in the 2000s the Thousand Oaks Boulevard sidewalk was reconstructed uh in front of Albany High School or to the side of Albony High School. Uh there was an extension of the sidewalk on Carmel Avenue uh in the early 2000s. Um and then a recent extension as part of the dog park project. And so what that's created is a a gap, a a legitimate gap here where we have um pedestrian paths of access on all sides and a center path that does not meet ADA requirements. So this existing path is in poor condition. Um I understand there's some people in the neighborhood. Um it's impassible for anybody in a wheelchair. Um it's we aren't able to repair it any longer. This is in a condition where it's a full rebuild. Um the path condition has something to do with the roof upheaval we're seeing, but also just um age. It's just an aging path. Um and it's highly used for both um access to Memorial Park uh the public sports fields and school facilities in all directions. Um there were private prior maintenance attempts in 2007 um but they did not last and need still need work. Um other existing conditions the while it looks like a very wide right ofway um the fence is actually set back about 10 ft. Uh so the rideway itself is a 12- foot ride ofway as it exists. Um or sorry a 12- foot sidewalk within the rideway as currently exists. Um inside this area there's um a number

of trees um irregularly spaced. We have seven Monterey pines. Those are primarily uh on the southern side of that area within the within the um parcel. Inside the right of way, we see um cedars, gum trees, um Australian tea trees, and California peppers. Um, additionally, there are some large gas utility vaults on the eastern ends of this um, utility cabinets that dot the uh, frontage and there's no storm drains until we hit Pona Pomona. Um, existing conditions on the roadway are actually quite interesting. uh the varying well to to me as a civil engineer, maybe less so to others, but um the the street actually narrows next to the high school. So there's a 32 foot wide roadway at the high school side um and it widens out to 36 feet in the in the area of the actual project. And this is this will come there's some discussion about this later. So I just want to bring that up that it's not a consistent roadway width. Um, we have received complaints about the narrowed roadway between Pomona and Key Route. The existing condition on the sidewalk, it's three and a half to four and a half ft wide. 4 feet is the minimum by ADA requirements and 5 foot is our city standard. Um, 5T is what we also need in order to avoid having to have passing space every so often um for people um under ADA. Now, the connecting sidewalks are very different or and this is to be fair is not a not a sidewalk. It's a more like a park path, the existing um pathway. Um but the the formal sidewalks to either side uh range from a 12t wide sidewalk with tree wells in front of Albony High School and 5 foot wide curbside

sidewalks on the Carmel side. In both cases, um they the sidewalk is immediately adjacent to parking. So when we're looking at the design and conceptual planning for this project, we're trying to balance out the need to preserve trees or minimize impacts to trees, uh pedestrian circulation needs, the adjacent public facilities and infrastructure. um some of the things that outside of the the trees which are beautiful and we want to preserve as many as we can within kind of a reasonable outcome. Um the pedestrian circulation is important for park access, the school access and also the ball fields and sports. Um, additionally, we really want to make sure that whatever work we do here is durable and long lasting. With that, I'll jump into kind of a brief overview of the the details of the three alternatives that were posted. So, alternative one is essentially trying to keep the path in its existing condition. It's weaving between trees. Um but widening it to become a formal sidewalk, concrete sidewalk. Um while this type of meandering sidewalk is discouraged under ADA, it's not prohibited. Um and we would be looking at trying to straighten the path out because right now there's some very sharp turns on it. Um but it is more challenging for people who need mobility devices. Um go back to that. So you can see here I'm showing representing the where the path is located in space uh with this box in yellow. Alternative number two, we're looking at something that's more similar to what exists at the two connecting sidewalks.

Um what we show in the alternatives is a 12-oot sidewalk. Um that is to match what the Albany High School uh version is. that allows for tree wells on the curb side as well as a planting space uh behind the property line next to the fence. Um but it can be narrowed down to 5T. And so just a quick view of what it looks like. This is Albony High School and then Carmel. So, the last alternative, what I'm calling alternative 2-way because it really is an expansion of the second alternative rather than a fully new concept, is to look at balancing the width of the sidewalk, excuse me, uh the width of the sidewalk and looking at ways to gain a few extra feet. Um because this roadway is a little extra wide in this area. Extra wide, I say that that's actually not a very good way to put it. um it is wider than the constriction to the west. Um this wouldn't be restricting it down to 32 feet and that again that's where we're getting the complaints. We're looking at potentially a two-ft curb adjustment and what that does is it gives us just a little extra room so that we're getting further away from some of the the larger trees next to the fence line. Um, however, doing this option does require a more detailed communication with transportation commission and community um because it's a a wider change that impacts kind of more than just the sidewalk to or the curb to property line area. Um, it does moderately minimize the Sorry, that's that's not correct. Um, it minimizes reduction in infiltrated areas. Incorrect. it moderately increased the

amount of pvious area here because we would be moving some of the roadway into part of the sidewalk. Um, and it's similar in cost and scope to alternative to assuming a similar sidewalk width. Um, so with that, without getting into great detail on the plans themselves, I just want to go over some of the comparisons. Um, with alternative one, again, going back to how I started this meeting talking about this is looking to the future. We're looking at placemaking. um not a simple repair. If we keep to the existing condition, we're formalizing the less the more regular path and tree layouts. Um with alternative 2, it's the best for navigation by people with visual impairments or mobility devices. It keeps your path of travel the most straight. Um and alternative 2A would have some gentle curves. In terms of the trees, um, trying to still keep the path in its existing condition, we'd be very close to root flares on a lot of trees. Um, without going into detail design, it's hard to tell exactly what the impacts are. Um, but it also maintains irregular spacing and irregular planting spaces for future trees. alternative to a uh two is interesting because it allows for trees, more moderately sized trees on both sides of the path because you could potentially have tree wells and planting and trees uh against the fence. Uh so you could create a kind of a treelined walking path. Um but the tree wells would be small. There' be four foot by four foot planting spaces. um and overall would have less planting space um for trees. And then alternative 2A maintains the largest continuous permeable areas for tree planting. We would have the 10 ft from the property line to the fence plus an additional amount of room uh that varies depending

on whether there's constrictions um that we need to work into. Um, and it relocates the sidewalks away from some of the root flares, especially from the Monterey Pines, which are creating most of the upheaval. Um, lastly, for access, we're looking at wider sidewalks for school zones if we're looking at the alternative. That's typically one of the the goals of these types of access projects is looking at what the local needs are, especially with um activities that happen at the high school where you might have a lot of people released at one time. However, the school access is at limited hours and that may not, you know, balancing that out may not be the highest of priorities. And lastly with 2A in terms of access, um there's potential minor traffic calming benefits by reducing street widths. And this one we'll talk about a bit more in transportation commission. Um but there's um with narrowing of streets, there is psychological demonstrated psychological changes where you tend to slow down a little bit more. And we see that next to the high school where you see people slow down as you're approaching the high school block and then speed up as they get out of it. Um I didn't really talk about in this presentation, but some of the access improvements that we're looking at include improving some of the crossings at uh Ramona and potentially Pimona depending on where we stop the project. Um lastly, in terms of infrastructure, street lighting has been a major focus of a lot of the community and the location of the trees currently greatly interfere with um visibility along that that path. Um there's some very densely canopied trees that are planted and we're weaving between them. Um with alternative two, uh over time the tree

wells, the location of the trees around tree wells may interfere with some lighting, but this is also a street where we have street lights that have um double lighting. So it spans a little further in across the sidewalk. So I'm putting that as a may depending on the size of the canopy and the street tree selected. The last option would not include street trees planted along the the curb. And so that one's very unlikely to interfere with sidewalk lighting over time. Um so trying to keep to high level considerations here. Um that ends that ends most of this presentation. Um I have copied these considerations here. So while we're talking about it, I also have a copy of the three different alternatives that we can take a look at. Our recommendation um in the for this meeting was to provide comments and recommend that we proceed with alternative 2A. However, you do not need to make that recommendation. I won't be I won't be uh upset by this. Um we really do want to have kind of this open conversation and make sure that uh we we're balancing kind of the desires um from a parks wreck and open space commission. You don't want to talk more because plenty of time. You don't want to talk.

All right. All right. We'll take it back to uh commission questions. Any questions? I think you laid it out very clearly. So on option 2A, you mentioned that the curb would be moved into the street a little bit and that still is still listed as the moderate expense. That seems like a big um but maybe it's simpler than I thought. There's no interference with the drainage or

we don't believe so. Um and in terms of the expense, the reason why it's a moderate expense is in terms of we would not have this 12oot sidewalk width with that option the way it's laid out here. So it's a five-ft sidewalk which is less costly. Alternative two already requires that we rebuild the curb and gutter in order to do the work. And so that's kind of it's an expansion with a slight decrease in sidewalk width compared to as compared to alternative two. So it is the more alternative two is the most costly simply because the amount of concrete we'd be doing and and likely probably more tree removals as well. Um but alternative then sorry that's alternative two where we're matching the um school district and uh Carmel Street um aesthetics uh approach. Um again back to 2A we would be trying to narrow that um sidewalk width a little bit more. So the cost would be less likely less than alternative two but still more than alternative one. 2A. You don't move the curb.

We do. 2A would be moving the curb. Yeah. Okay. But we would have to rebuild the curb for alternative two as well. Um, so this hasn't gone through traffic. Um, I forget the name of the that commission, transportation commission yet, right? Okay. I'm just curious about the width of the street. Is this would it be like um the average would by with after alternative 2A if that was implemented would this the width of the street be more typical of what we see in Albany or smaller larger than you know average Albany street?

So it would be larger than the average residential north south street which is about 30 feet um but it would be smaller than the average east west street um in Albany which are generally our collectors. This street is unusual in Albany. won't it's it doesn't continue all the way to San Pablo Avenue. So, it serves less as a collector and more as a a local access to the street and for general approach uh general access to residential homes. Yeah. And then um when it I'm sorry I can't remember I actually live very close to there but once you cross Carmel going towards Berkeley the streets with the same is the same right? It doesn't narrow at all does it?

I'm not sure about Berkeley. Some of the streets in this area do narrow significantly once you enter Berkeley. Um, thinking specifically of um, Washington, but um, I don't believe the street is any narrower than what's here within Albany along the rest of that corridor because it does feel like a very wide street or and especially without the houses on both sides, right? It almost makes it even wider because there's no clutter, you know? Anyway, so okay, thank you. That was my main question. Um, questions, Brian?

Uh, yeah, I had a few. Um, one was, uh, I don't know if there's a way to do this with an ADA treatment, but is there a way to do like you see at some national or state parks like a like an elevated just a few inches walkway that goes over all the roots? Anything is feasible. Um, I would say in terms of our maintenance, and that's actually highly maintenance intensive, um, would would start rotting. We would have a different type of repair program needed for a small section of, um, sidewalk. Um, it's also prone to becoming changing how the kind of tactile surface is.

Sometimes wood can get really slippery, especially in the rain, um, depending on what kind of treatments on it. Um, so it would just be an it would be not a standard sidewalk. That is that is to say it's not feasible. We have we just haven't looked at that and I from a maintenance and operations it would not be something I would particularly want to recommend at this point.

Okay. Um, other question is has anyone looked at the health of the existing trees to know if any of them are on their last legs and would need to be removed soon anyway? So, I did speak to John Hawkridge, our forester. Uh, some of the cyprus are not looking in great condition. Um, they're they were mature and overmature for some of them. Um, so there's probably a need to look at these trees generally for some maintenance and also planting to to get ahead of having to remove them at some point in the future. Um, but it's I don't have exact information about each tree. Mhm. Um and then is it so to clarify the impacts of to trees and the different scenarios. Um so first for number scenario one is it correct to say that number one uh basically avoids the trunks of every tree as it meanders through but uh it might get really close to those trunks which might involve very severe uh root pruning which might uh require removing trees. I would say we would be going through some trunks as well in order to widen the path to five feet and meet our current standards.

Okay. Um I'm looking at the street on a street view thing. I'd see there are some trees that are right on the curb and then several most are set back a little ways, but there's I believe four trees near curb near the curb. Um some of those trees are causing curb damage and causing some local ponding along the gutter. Mhm. Um, one of the advantages of relocating the curb out is we're giving those trees a little more space if we can preserve them.

If we can preserve them. Okay. And then for number two, uh, is it correct to say that it's it's going for this really wide sidewalk sidewalk that's like what's at the school and with tree wells and maybe like a 12 foot wide sidewalk I think you said maybe or and so that would require removing all the trees and then just planting in the tree wells with new trees. So that option is assuming a 12 foot wide sidewalk area, 8 foot wide continuous continuous path with 4 foot tree wells. So 12T um so we're still not getting to a 12oot sidewalk.

Neither is the school. When I say a 12oot sidewalk, that's the that's the curb to back of walk, not not the actual constricted. Okay, understood. So, but that would but number two would require removing every tree. Is that correct to say that would likely remove all the trees if we were to go with that specific plan? What I what I wanted to I didn't get into this in great detail, but this is was intended to be a range of options. Mhm.

So, there's ways to intersperse things. There's ways to make small minor changes around certain places. But going back to kind of the initial conversation around this being a placemaking, this is a kind of unusual situation where we're not both we're not just doing simple repairs, but also we have to look at kind of long-term. This is a an alignment that's likely to be around not just through the life of these trees. They might this alignment might exist past the lifespan of these

some of these trees. And then is is it correct to say for 2A that that's the one that tries to get more real estate by building into the street and it's is that the one that has no tree wells because you're just trying to get enough sidewalk to avoid most of the trees that are there already. Is that the idea?

That's generally the idea. Um, we would try to preserve trees and maximize how much space there is south of the south of the path um or the sidewalk. Um, it gives the most continuous space um because again we have both the remainder of the ride ofway. We have the 10-ft set back to the fence and then the fence itself is still within a you know past the fence it's still within a field and roots can still grow out there. So it really gives some of probably the other than a actual park some of the widest planting areas you can get next to a roadway. Oh, so that are between the sidewalk and the and the ball field or something. Yeah, it would be fully remain fully open. Yeah. Future planting.

Okay. And so for uh it sounds like I think you're saying all three scenarios would pretty much take out all the require removal of the four trees that are at the curb. There's room to potentially move around some of them, but I do scenario one under scenario one and under scenario 2 a

we have a small a narrower sidewalk. Um, but we also want to balance that with some of the considerations that we're seeing with some of the trees have outgrown their space and they are causing roadway damage and we don't have drainage here and so and it's a pretty flat street. So, some of what we would normally do which is bulb outs um on a street like this may not be feasible um we've done some of those pass through bulb outs and they've worked but this is this may not be the street that we can do that either. Mhm. Um what I understand of the the trees causing damage, they are um likely to continue to they're they're not trees that are appropriate for street trees.

They wouldn't be planted at this time. And then um last question uh is I think you said PE you the city's gotten some complaints about the 32 foot portion of the roadway. Um, and it's my understanding that the the vast majority of the streets in Albany are 30 feet, give or take. So, um, uh, it seems to me that does it does it seem that does the city see 30 feet as being kind of a a limit on the narrowness of the street?

We wouldn't go beyond below 30 feet without good reason. um and we don't often rebuild streets so and change their widths um along entire corridors. So um what I would say is generally we're we need at least 10 foot driving lanes and if we want to preserve parking we include another seven feet on either side. Um so at that point you're at 34 feet. That's what we're proposing here is a 34 foot wide. Um a lot of our 30 foot uh ride ofways um you end up, you know, pulling into a driveway,

somebody passes and you continue on. It does create natural traffic calming as a side benefit. Um but we wouldn't want to do that on a kind of semicoltor that we're seeing here, especially not one as busy as uh a street next to a park. Okay. Thanks. I'd emphasize traffic calming is not the same as driver calling situation. that that might be why we're getting complaints of opposite. Any other questions? Yeah, please. Um I had a question on the design consideration slide because it said um one of the goals was to maintain drainage, but I don't think there's a lot of drainage. Currently, whenever it rains, there's a lot of puddling.

That's it. When I say maintain drainage here, we don't have a storm drain, an underground storm drain system. And so what I mean by that is that we have to make sure that water continue to go through the gutter in a way that doesn't make the puddles worse. Ideally, we would get rid of the puddles as part of this project, but um actually we would we would be designing to get rid of the localized puddles that you're seeing along that block. Um but the reason for the puddles is actually the tree roots have been pushing up gutter. Okay.

Can I ask a question? Um, so when you make it like two feet further, is it going to be the same like length as the Omni High School one or like if you like straight or does it go out? It would actually be straight. So let me uh go back to this slide here. Um, so I didn't really cover this in great detail, so I'm glad you asked. Um, this yellow line here is the existing curb at the driveway between uh the school and the ball field. uh the curve line actually extends outwards um southwards and so what we would be doing is taking that south curve line and continuing it um but not adjusting the north curve line where it also does something similar.

All right, see no more questions. We'll open for public comment. Anybody uh online raising their hand? No hands online. All right, is there anybody observing online or No, sorry. I that okay we'll uh take bring it back for discussion and really you're looking for feedback and some direction very early you know you can't really say what trees might be removed or not because we it's much too early for that but what do we think

I just had a couple um that's a really good question I still I'm looking at the street view I still totally I don't I can't quite wrap my head around how it's still a straight line but I trust you but uh Um, one thing I'd say in terms I I think I appreciate the alternative 2A and the staff thought that went into that as really nice creative solution and I feel like it's in line with a lot of other sort of kind of taking back, you know, the streets and giving more to the public to by so I I really like that trend. Um, I do think it would be great in terms of um pitching this is to talk about aesthetic benefit, right? I don't I don't know that that's really included there, but I do think like larger sidewalk and you know more sort of space to walk and bigger tree wells is like an aesthetic benefit and a quality of life in of itself. So I just want to say that I think that would be nice to include in there because in the sort of flowchart that you have. Um but I'd also say that I appreciate the the um the emphasis on trying to keep the trees. I would say that those trees there, some of them are mature, but they are not large canopy. They're actually kind of spindly, you know, and so I think that there's a way when, you know, we had the street tree management plan. I'm sorry, is that's the name of it, right? I always get that wrong. And there was that whole analysis of the canopy. And so that's an example. Those are several examples of three big mature trees with a very little canopy. Like you not even much shade. So I would just say that as we think about planting there and if we get this opportunity to plant trees that it would be great to you know especially when we need to replace them replace them with trees that are going to have the full canopy. But um so I guess my point is that I don't see even if some of these trees have to be removed some of them I don't think provide the some of the benefits

that we hope that they would because of the small shade um availability of those canopies. So, so thank you. That's those are just some comments I wanted to make. I don't have anything would next feedback.

Um I wanted to say thank you to the city for tackling this. It's been a real um you know problem for the city for many years and uh just sort of shocking when you're used to such nice sidewalks and you come across this and it's like wow. and uh you know some kids are on it every day and all sorts of other folks uh and it you know definitely presents challenges with the trees and the roots and and and all of that. So I think we all appreciate the degree of difficulty here. Um, I would say I agree with Commissioner Chang Frank that um that uh the you know getting this right um for the long time like you said lasting hopefully many years beyond the these trees do um could require you know a complete redo of the trees or or or or many of them and uh that um I think that could serve the community um going forward as as far as one versus two versus 2A. Yeah, I think I I would therefore avoid the weaving path of one and uh uh and then um I think you said two is kind of paving the whole area except for tree wells. Is that right? two would be paving something similar to Albany High School, but we still have an additional 10 feet of um imperous area plant potential planter area behind the sidewalk between the sidewalk 12ft sidewalk and a um and the fence that will exist because that's within the park property. We're not planning to do the sidewalk going into the park property under any of these um kind of range of ideas that we've presented tonight. Oh,

okay. So, two would still be a really wide or how many feet wide? Um two would be a 12t wide, 8 foot pass continuous passing area. Um plus that still allows 10 feet of grass basically or planting area beyond that. Okay. So, the fence is kind of 20 something feet from the curb approximately 20 about 22 feet. Okay. Um, so yeah, that seems that seems like that could be uh a good way to go. 2A is the idea that it avoids hitting the the line of more established trees closer to the fence.

It would be pro providing the largest continuous planting area for future trees. Um, so it would be the 10 feet that we that's within the property plus an additional anywhere from 10 5 to 10 additional feet. Okay. So there's already and two would provide a 10-ft planting area. Correct. Which is already bigger than any tree wall we have anywhere.

Okay. Um, so yeah, that would be my inclination would be to go for two. two two that doesn't mess with the street at all. It be cheaper for the city, I think. Uh, and less impact on traffic flows and whatever else. Um, unless there's some I can't I mean, is there a benefit to making the curb straight and making it a consistent 32 feet or whatever all the way down or 34 feet?

Um, so it wouldn't be consistent 32. It'd be 34. So, it would go from a 32 next to the street and widen out to 34. Um, and the main reason is it tends to slow down traffic. This is a pretty heavily um kind of pedestrianus area. Um, lots of school kids getting dropped off. Um, so it just slows down traffic a little bit. To be fair though, during school drop off, um, there's likely less speed. Um, where you see it maybe the most beneficial is actually going to be when there's no cars parked during off hours. It just narrows the

narrows the street. Yeah, it seems to me that would be a minor benefit and just two is simpler and and does the job to me. That would be my recommendation.

Um I just think I I like analysis is very good. Agree with city's selection of 2A for reasons mentioned. I think it's we have very few places we can put big trees here. We don't have the overhead utilities planting next to huge ballpark which irrigation I mean great place to max and if it costs very little more to just foot and a half more so it out I'm concerned though that there might be some hidden costs like the couple lights there that I think are probably a foot and a half in off the curb so they'd have to be moved to or they're going to be in the middle of the is the um the uh let me grab that um concept plan layout. Again, this is concept plan. Um it it might end up being 5 feet 12 feet as we're discussing right now. And there's any number of iterations in between. Um but it's more of a a range again.

Yeah. Realize it's just a concept, but just some things. Yeah. So that funny utility down there. What's box? That's a a gas regulator. Um, could all of those boxes be undergrounded? It would I don't believe so. Not not easily and without great heartache. um principle um for

so here's here's kind of the ideas around the tree wells and these are a little sharp but um essentially what's shown oh it's not shown popping up interesting try again we go um so we would be maintaining a five foot path around um the street lights by curving is the idea. Um I do want to point out there's this this is a survey marking. It is not oriented in the right direction. The street lights actually um head out over the over the roadway and over this um the sidewalk. So it's actually at 90 degrees to what it's shown in the plans.

Guess that's okay. I'm just worried about people on their phone walking down the sidewalk. It's I have a clarifying question. You go back to that table again with the three alternatives because um Commissioner Martin was saying something about how it's two is the most ex is the cheapest, but I thought was the most expensive. So, which one I guess middle one is the highest expected cost? What's the 2A? 2A is somewhere in the middle. Um because it's being proposed as a five foot versus a 12oot sidewalk and there's no tree wells. Okay. So it's in between one and two, right? Okay. But going back to alternative two, there's a way to do alternative two that's not a 12oot sidewalk as well.

Oh, I see. Okay. That's how to reduce the cost there. Okay. So for 2A, you'd have to I think change the some of the roaded, the gutter and and and all that. And that ends up being and then fill that space with whatever building out the the curb a few feet. So that's cheaper than just laying a few extra feet of width of sidewalk.

So, alternative to the reason why that's not just the width of the sidewalk that is expensive, it's also because we would have to rebuild the curb and that's because of the vertical grading because of the amount of kind of up and down there. But we may, if we're trying to preserve some of the trees that are further out um within the the ball field, sorry, between the back of sidewalk and the fence, we would be ramping up and down and we have to tie that into the curb and gutter in a way that's reasonable. Um so with the amount of up and down we would have potentially um the way the kind of initial estimates were was it's probably best to just take care of the curb and gutter at the same time. Um we haven't done detailed design to be able to really flesh that out but in a range this is likely to be the most expensive option at the high end and somewhere moderate on the low end whereas alternative 2A is likely to be on the lower end of that but at a certain point it being ends up being the same functionally for the same project sorry functionally the same project in terms of costs in terms of complexity with coordination it's it is more for two I I would say that I I way is um it does maximize space in a way that significantly more than provides and will large tree um and they're already impinging. So use that and more options for large canopy tree time comes. Um, and my understanding is that apart from the 12 or the the the width of the side, it's really losing the tree wells is what allows 2A to be that and push out push out. That's what really allows it to be more.

That's exactly correct. That's why I call it an alternative 2A versus a third alternative. It's it's the same concept just pulling it in a little bit more and right taking advantage of some roadway width. So, is that correct to say two has tree wells and it has the big trees by the fence? Keeps those or some of them anyway, but uh 2A has no tree wells, but it's further away from the the fence. Yes.

Okay. And and it's how so the right of way that we're talking when you said removing all the trees, that's in the right of way. you we're never talking about removing all the trees, even the ones right next near the fence, right? Those are school or park property or whatever. So, it's hard to it's hard to It's hard to say for sure, of course, because without kind of starting to see some of the root structure and getting into grading, it's it's hard for me to say with certainty what's going to happen. Um, but that's part of why hearing these comments so that we kind of have a design it helps us make design decisions. um to understand what the priorities are.

Okay. Well, well, hearing some of that discussion, I think has me leaning a little more towards 2A since it it gets rid of the tree wells, which I I think are really less needed given that you have this 10 feet or whatever it is beyond the sidewalk, between the sidewalk and the fence, or even more than that if it's only a five- foot sidewalk and you move two of it into the street or something. Um, so yeah, so that would make me lean more towards 2A that just keep the sidewalk near the curb and then have this huge planting area uh between the sidewalk and the fence and then you I then don't have any uh tree wells. That sounds the better option to me currently. I mean when I was walking my dog through here is is kind of like a park. And so I think that um obviously one preserves that to some degree, but I also think TOA does because there's enough space there. You could get off the trail and and beyond, you know, go through the woods trees and then poop and go home, which is what you always do. But not me, but I would pick it up. But I I think that's very nice. I think that's real adds. It's basically a small part.

Yeah. that point, which I don't think you get with two. I think two you get a sidewalk. Going back to aesthetics, it would be more of a kind of a bull boulevard feel versus a park feel.

I have a quick question about alternative one. Like would there be need would there need to be like sizable like removal of trees? Like specifically, I think there's like a um a pine on like very close to the Pomona that has like giant roots um that are definitely like at least like 4 inches tall or something. So, uh I was just wondering like would that need to be removed cuz I don't know, alternative one doesn't really seem very favorable. Um so there would be tree removals likely in all of these. Yeah, but like

various ones. This one would be on the uh south side I guess of the path, right? Um, so there would likely be both tree removals and tree trim, like root trimming. And then some of those when they get more aggressive, we could we either based on uh feedback from John Hawkridge, the our city forester um may we think it may survive and some of them we don't we think it if it we think it might survive, we sometimes leave it with some significant root trimming and see how it does. Um it is a risk to the city to to try to preserve some of these trees near paths um because we have to keep an eye on it.

Okay. It's a balancing act. But yes, you're right. There there would be tree removals in in that case as well and and potentially similar number depending on how those tree root flares actually look in reality. Okay. Well, yeah, I don't really support alternative one. I think. But um um I have a question. So why is um alternative 2 better for visual impairment than alternative 2 a?

Oh um so this is alternative two here. um alternative to what it does is it kind of creates more of a standard sidewalk configuration um where the path of travel doesn't have to uh deviate from a straight path at all um throughout the entire uh sidewalk area. Um so you would be coming in here and once you get past this first tree well in the what we call the furniture zone or the furnishing zone um essentially at that point you have a straight way So, is 2A not straight?

2A would not be for fully straight. We would be waving around some utilities um that would otherwise be in a furnishing zone. So, for example, over here, let's see if I can get in over here. There's um some street lights, signs. Um there's a a little box here. This is a water meter and a irrigation box. um it's a vertical, it's like two feet tall. Um you could essentially continue on straight through that area. But in alternative 2A for that same location, we would have to kind of adjust the path around it. So here's that same meter box. We would be bringing the path next to the curb and a widening out here where there's an entrance to the ball field. and we would naturally be seeing more people anyways. Um, but there would in order to avoid constrictions here, you would have to there's a a person would have to kind of deviate from their straight path to get around.

And then students, youth are a are legally allowed to ride bicycles on sidewalks. So something like that would be like a hazard in the middle of the sidewalk and would need to be marked and padded and whatever else, wouldn't it? Or something.

Um, we I wouldn't say that's a kind of a requirement anywhere that's high enough that it's visible. This is not a something that's not visible. we generally don't have the same um traffic safety requirements on a sidewalk where it's expected to be a pedestrian zone that we have in a roadway. Um so we we don't pad every vertical box around the city in a sidewalk just because students can ride bikes on it. There's some next to FDA, but is that where the bike path is? Correct. So that's a that's a bike facility. It's considered vehicular traffic. Okay.

To a great degree and expect to be riding much faster on a dedicated back bikeway. Um but that's a that's something we would be looking at in detailed design to see if there's any need for it. Again, this is supposed to be a pedestrian zone that children are allowed to ride safely on. Advantage that it would slow that traffic potentially. Yeah. But also, if it's dark though, you don't want to have that surprise people. I would just say they're boxes like that all over the sidewalks. They're not It's not unusual.

Well, there's some that are like up to here, like the telecommunications, but something that's knee high, that's that's going to be a little different. Um, other comments. I I I hope we've given you some feedback. Um, we like trees. We like space for trees.

Okay. Well, a few words. All right. Very good. Thank you very much. I hope you got what you needed. So, what is your recommendation? Oh, do we recommendation? Oh, that we uh Oh, it's actually an item. Okay. Recommendation. Uh, do we feel comfortable recommending pursuit of a is that? Yeah. I have a motion for 2A. Sure. One. Okay. So, move to recommend 2A. Second. Okay. Commissioner Chan. Yes. Commissioner Chang Frank. Yes. Commissioner Kent. Yes. Commissioner Martin. Yes. Commissioner Trinkle. Yes. And Cheer Abbott? Yes,

thank you very much and thanks for your work and and I know a lot of work goes into something creating like two-way thinking outside your box or out of your lane or something. I'm not sure works there, but it's good and thanks to the city for tackling this tricky problem. I'm a little disappointed because I always wanted that to be our test area for sidewalk surface because there's a natural need for it. All right, very good. Uh, all right. 52 uh election of officers commission will nominate and elect chair and vice chair 2026. So I think um we do chair first and folks can nominate themselves or be nominated. Y

I think it's and I believe once somebody's name is said they can't say no. Is that right? That's that's what I remember. That's what they told me. What? Who's our vice chair? Is that right? Are you the vice? I don't I don't even know. Is it on the I think you've been at almost all the pretty much all the meetings, haven't you? Me? Yeah. I don't think it um the one I would have missed. We were uh Yeah, I think you Yeah, it doesn't say on our list. Well, anyway, it doesn't it doesn't mean that you automatically bump up. I served last year. I'm sure it's not me.

Um, or was it Hillary? Was it Hillary? I don't know. Commissioner Sardinius. I don't know. I don't know. I think we'd know something like that. All right. Um, who is not continuing? Yeah, it could be. Hillary resign. I've seen not a lot of enthusiasm. Anybody? Yeah. I was hoping Julie would step up. It's going to be a no. That now it's going to be a no. I I know. I know. Attendance has been an issue for you. Yeah. Yeah. Going on. Yeah. And you can re reup if you Right. I mean others can reup even if they fine. I mean if that's if nobody else wants to do it, I'm fine doing it. But I also like giving other people opportunities.

We've all done it. So it's fine if ready to go to college later. We all have lives. Well, you and you're in college right now, right? No, I'm a junior. You're a junior. Oh, okay. You'll be around. Oh, hey. Oh, we're not going to pressure anything, but but the door is open if if you're interested. Yeah, I think I'm good. All right. Um, I nominate Chair Abbott to re reup I second. I All right. Uh, Commissioner Chan, yes. Commissioner Chang Frank, yes. Commissioner Kent, yes. Commissioner Martin, yes. Commissioner Trinkle,

yes. And Chair Abbott. Okay. Chair Abbott is Chair Abbott. Okay. And for a vice president, chair, vice chair, vice chair. Can you nominate Can you nominate the uh the vacant chair? Do we have somebody? I don't I don't think so. No. Mayor's here and that's her position. She'll work. It's hard to find. I got a couple. I should email her some s. Anyone want to nominate themselves for vice chair?

Not very I don't miss often. Say that. Um, I will nominate myself for vice chair. All right. Thank you. Anyone second that? I second. All right. Commissioner Chan, yes. Commissioner Changrint, yes. Commissioner Kent, yes. Commissioner Martin, yes. Commissioner Trinkle, yes. And Chair Abbott, yes. All right. Vice Chair Brian Martin. Okay. Okay. One,

this one I went to withdraw as No. All right. Uh, subcommittee updates. We do not currently have any subcommittees, I don't think. Uh, announcements. Any announcements from the city? I have no announcements. No announcements. Do I have any announcements? Any announcements? We We do have an announcement. We have an announcement. Okay. Actually, why don't Well, I I

I could do it. Um, make sure I get all the details. So, we're planning a um projects expo um planning projects expo um like community community meeting. It would be the 22nd um information is going to come out in this week's news um e-news. Uh we're looking at two two different things. The ATP, so there's going to be some uh consultants and our staff on hand as well as the watershed management plan. And for the wershed management plan, we're looking for feedback and where there are issues um within the city of flooding, especially now that it's all fresh in everyone's mind and your socks are still wet and whatnot. Um uh so that's going to happen at the community center. Um keep up for what is it? 7 o'clock. 7 o'clock. Um and that's going to be the community center. Look out for details and e-news and the websites and so forth. So, where do we ask people not to send the e-news on a Friday afternoon? That's like the worst time to send something like that out.

Folks know that, right? I think I've mentioned this before. I know you're not the ones to talk to, but you're the only ones here. All right. Um, January 22nd. January 22. Okay. Yeah. It I believe this will take place to will happen in place of the transportation commission. Okay, that's the that's the proposal. Um, this was this was primarily focused on the ATP initially, but then we looked at um uh bootstrapping the um the the watershed management plan, similar to what we did about a year ago. Just want to make a quick correction.

It's uh it is January 22nd, but it looks like it's going to be 5:30 to 7:30. So, I don't want you to miss it. Yes, correct. Where is it taking place? Community center. Community center. I can announce that there will be an Lunar New Year celebration this year. We weren't sure because the location kind of went away, but we it will be a church on the corner, so that's good. Not quite sure the date yet, but it uh usually it's around Super Bowl Sunday at a church. It won't be Sunday, but yeah. All right, moving on then. I think we can adjourn this meeting. We can begin next Friday with our new leadership team.

I did I do have just announcements thoughts on um yeah so um we will so there's a couple things in the mix but we will um have an update on Prop 68 projects and if I can get my act together do something on uh park maintenance. Okay. Um, but there's potentially some other things, but uh, Prop 68 will be the main event. Very interesting. Look forward to that. Um, oh, and then I think I saw in a city council meeting that the the funding was approved, I think, for uh, volleyball uh, sightings.

Yes. So, it is so it's a um, sort of a a supplement to the parks master plan um, looking at sighting of of volleyball as well as other things just so we get a broader cons community input. um that will be run through our um this commission. Uh we've signed the contract and um we haven't kicked it off yet. So um once that schedule's established, we'll let you know and that's going to be run obviously run through here. Okay, that's on the on the horizon. Okay, great. Great. We'll again adjourn the meeting. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Okay, bye.