Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Mic's on my gardener shows up. Okay, look at that.

All right. Good evening, everyone. Uh, welcome to the November meeting of the Oakline Zoning Commission this evening. We have at the table we have our council attorney Matt Willis. We have Mary Gardner Copela, an alternate. We have um Mr. Michael Fogliano when alternate the short timer alternate we have full-time member Denise Savage Joe Mary Joe Nosel full-time our secretary Jane Marsh Michael Peter Barnes alternate and myself Paul Orzel so welcome all to the meeting now that I have welcomed you all to the meeting our first item on the agenda to seat Mary for Mike do it now or when we well yeah theoretically just do it all right Okay. You are now a voting member. Adam, Mr. Miller was not here and it's time of the rotation for you.

Okay. So, if any voting conversations, whatever, you're you're in. Understood. Thank you. Okay. All right. Now that everyone's comfortable, um the zoning commission will be going into executive session. Um, I don't know how long that executive session will be, but regardless of the fact, I'm going to have to ask everyone that just the zoning commission take the room. You're inviting attorney Willis? No, I'm inviting attorney Willis. So, I'm going to ask everyone to please leave the room.

It will continue after Okay, I will

motion then that we come out of executive session uh at 7:15 p.m. There were no notes taken or no no notes taken or decisions made or decisions made. So move second. So moved by Jade Bar, seconded by Mary Joe. All in favor? Thanks. Okay. All right. We're out of executive session. Anybody like it?

We have great for Oh, said he'd come down. If you guys want questions, well, probably be helpful if you want to. Do you have said you would need to call? I have I don't have his number handy. Do you have his number handy? Okay.

860. Mhm. 662 1339. Okay. you're popular,

you know, haven't used this for a while, so catch us up with this one. Stop by.

Okay. You you know I norally just want to call him to Dave Ro so that Dave Rober is on his way here. He said give him 20 minutes. Okay. Okay. Because I know you had questions of him last time and he was not present. So I will make sure he's present this time. Okay. Okay. All right. So, do we want to You want to start your public hearing now and he'll show up when he shows up. Okay. All right. All right. The next item on the agenda then is a public hearing for 40 Mccertie Road and I will pass it over to Madam Secretary. Oh, didn't I read all that stuff?

You did. However, because they didn't send notice to the neighbors, the hearing was defective and we had to basically start again from scratch, unfortunately. So, I I apologize, but back here. So, zoning commission of the town of old lime will hold a public hearing at a regular meeting. Now, this still has the old information on it. Um, that's true. We we we have republished. I can assure you we have republished all. So I should change the date when I'm reading it. Yes. Why don't you give it for tonight's date? Yeah. That has been it has been republished.

Uh regular meeting on uh Monday, November 10th at 6:30 p.m. Old Lime, Connecticut to consider and hear comments on the following case number 25-340 McCertie Road special permit application to modify original application old Lime Country Club applicant. At this hearing, interested parties may be heard and written communications received. Copies of the application are in the land use office, 52 Lime Street, Old Lime, Connecticut, dated at Old Lime, Connecticut this 30th day of whatever it was 2025.

Okay. So, and we have exhibits. A is the application. B are the plans. B emails from Matt Blazer dated 8275. Exhibit D, Richard M. Hosley resume. Exhibit E, legal ad. Exhibit F, certification of decision granted by Old Lime Zoning Commission, recorded 61325. Exhibit G, agenda. Agenda Oldline zoning commission 10142.5 exhibit H legal ad in the exhibit I certificate of mailings. Okay. Thank you.

All right. So before I ask the applicants to come up um long question here. Is there any member of the general public that is at this meeting that for this hearing, this public hearing that was not here for last month's meeting and is here specifically to hear the application for the uh country club modifications. Okay. So there are no additional uh members of the public here. Is there anyone in the audience today that would care to make a comment on this application once I open it up to public hearing? Okay. No that way. Okay. So then I will ask the applicants um to once again provide us this time with a very brief um overview of exactly what this special application permit is for.

Please come up. We need to catch you on identify yourselves and

um good evening everybody. My name is uh Matthew Blazer with Newfield Construction Group. We are the construction manager for the Old Line Country Club project at 40 Curry Road in uh what we're looking for is the ability to modify the original application to allow for blasting. Um as we presented previously on micro blasting micro blasting will be designed uh to protect the most the closest structure adjacent to where we're blasting. An example of that would be if we were if we're blasting at the country club is designed by engineers to not impact the country club. So, anything away from that as you get farther, you're uh isn't is not in direct um danger of blasting the uh micro blasting that we reviewed last time. Um I just want to read a couple hinted slides, please.

The explanation of blasting. Why is blasting necessary? Control blasting is used daily throughout the world. It is the most cost-effective method available for breaking rock which helps lower the cost to homeowners, taxpayers, businesses and contractors. Rock excavation by blasting takes a fraction of the time required by conventional earthmoving equipment reducing the time required for construction and disturbance to you. In most cases, it is impossible to excavate without blasting. So, what we're trying to avoid here for the neighbors and for the community is blasting is is a very quick application. Um there's three whistles that are blown before we blast. We do seismograph tests uh and we track the readings of everything around us. Um and it's a quick boom, very soft. If we're doing removing the rock by using a machine which is called hole ramming, it becomes very loud and invasive and takes a lot of time and can disturb the surrounding area with noise pollution. Um what is involved? Blasting is designed to remove rock only where engineers uh specifications required it. The pre-based class plan will establish procedures to maintain vibration limits below the damage thresholds of adjacent structures. The first step is to drill a pattern of cylindrical holes which are loaded with explosives and crushed stone. The holes are connected to delays which cause each hole to go off milliseconds apart. Consequently, a large blast can be reduced to a series of small blasts. Heavy blasting mats are seen and can be placed over the holes to keep debris down. Like I uh previously said, three long whistles are blown prior to each blast. The way that it was described to me that made me understand it was like a preferated piece of paper. When you drill the holes, get blast in there, pull it away, it comes off, and then we can remove the the stone with an excavator. Uh the blast design during blast operations attentions must be given to heave excavation limits relative to overfraracturing ground control rock air

blast and vibration as well as fragmentation. I have the actual distances in here as well. They let you know how far the country club's blasting is to the the closest neighbors. Try and give that as well. These are the examples that we went through last time. You should keep a copy of that presentation in the sounding office because it's very informative and I can forward you the actual digital copy of the telephone.

Okay, got it. The um the country club itself where we'll be blasting for the addition is 165 ft to the cemetery that's along John Kate Hill Road. It is 356 ft to the closest neighbor uh from the country club distance. There is also additional blasting up at the parking lot area which is adjacent to Johnny Kill Road. And the neighbors um up in that area are 470 ft and 4447 ft away from the blasting area. So they're quite a distance away from where we're actually performing this work.

Blasting uh how blasting may affect your house. The proximity of existing structures is considered when designing blast. Most of the explosive energy will be consumed by rock fracture or will be reduced by destructive interference. Lower levels of energy will continue to travel as seismic and sound waves. Energy allowed to travel along the work site is wasted energy and causes one to feel vibrations. Uncontrollable factors such as geology and weather make it impossible to avoid excess vibration and noise. Although the vibrations come from constructing blastings will be perceptible, the vibrations will not be sufficient to vanish structures or building materials as verified verified by seismic seismic and we do have a blast plan guidelines that we follow follow that was presented as well last time. So this will be included in your presentation for everybody to go through. I believe you know one of the things that we we mentioned when we get ready to blast we'll send out letters again to the neighbors so they're aware it's going to happen. So if somebody has a dog that is distracted, concerned about blasting or in a children outside plan they can bring inside if they're so choose.

How how long before you begin blasting will you notify the neighbors? I would say a week and do a week. A week prior. Are you going to go out with some sort of a notification uh prior to that indicating that there will be blasting? We can do that. Yeah. Same same way as how we notify the neighbors of this meeting this evening. on that same mailing list, but that notification did not indicate that this application was for blasting. No, it didn't. It did. Right. So, so the concern I have is can the neighbors be brought up to speed now to let them know this is happening and approximately when they can expect?

Yeah, we can send that out. And and the process that you just indicated as to how it'll the guidelines. The guidelines. Yep. Okay. Will the neighbors have uh access either by default or as an optin to seismic monitoring and pre and post surveys? The the results will have from the seismic graph test. Will they have access to it? Is that what you're asking? Yeah. and and and and pre and post surveys if if um if that's indicated

for distance for their actual homes surveys. Um I'd have to get back to you on that one. I don't know off the top of my head. I know for all the areas around here we have we have a budget for that. Um if it includes their homes, I'd have to double check. But can I clarify? What do you mean by survey? What are you looking for with this? What kind of survey?

Question. Sorry. Based on what we heard last time, there will be sort of real time monitoring of vibrations and such distances. I don't know if it's specific to houses. I don't think it is, but at certain locations, there are real time monitoring. That information will be translated instantly to Dave Rober showing up shortly. He can talk to you about that. Uh, I don't know if it's also available instantaneously to neighbors, but my understanding is those reports are public information and can be voyed to to so people can see it. And our seismograph will keep track of all the vibration in the area when we're blasting and those reports will be available to everybody.

And our minutes from last month, we have a pre-construction survey will be given to the old lime conduit club and the owners of the adjacent structures like a questionnaire a survey. Is that what you independ well and seismic graphs where was that on a pre-blast survey will be given to the local and state fire marshall which we just said I don't know we didn't get a we didn't get a copy and I know um Denise yeah I know that so I'm trying to clarify what kind of survey specifically you're seeking blast survey is usually done by the blasting company and what they're doing is they're trying to determine existing conditions first looking at the geology

they just want to make sure that if there's already a crack in the foundation that they're not held responsible for it. So they do a pre-blast survey. So they do go to the houses, anything within an area that might have Yeah. within I mean they're going to be looking at a certain they're going to be looking at what they described as critical areas. So they're going to decide within the blast sites how much blast they need, what are the critical areas that they need to protect and outside of that. So whether they look at foundations that are 400 or 500 feet away, they may not. If it was something that was in that critical area, that's where they're probably going to do the same. I guess that's the seismograph report, right? So they determine if that blast was really strong outside of that footprint, right? That's that's what they're looking at.

And again, I seem to recall testifying last night, they do some pre-blast, smaller blast as well, and then they see and then they see how far that goes out. We would for our pre-blast surveys, you know, for just for the country club, for example, they would want it done on their pool just for where we're blasting. They would want them done. need to do it at the at the graveyard because there is a wall that's outside the graveyard pre-blast survey there. When you get up to the houses that are that are 400 feet away with, you know, they're kind of outside of your blast radius at that point. Eric, do you have um our approval from last time? It's in the minutes from last meeting.

So, all the stuff is in the minutes. Yeah, if the specific conditions of approval were specifically written right into the minutes, you would have them. And I have extra copies of the minutes if you'd like more extra or James Fox.

Other questions from anyone on the commission? I'll take that as a note. Okay. And again, I did request Mr. Ober show up. So, if you want to wait a couple minutes and for him to show up, I get to call him back now and say, "Turn around and go back the other way." Well, yeah. No, we don't want that. Have a seat.

Thank you. So then I will open it up the public hearing even though I think I know the answer to this one. Um is there anyone in the audience um in the room that um would like to comment or make a comment on this application? I can wait for 10 minutes. Well, what we can also do is essentially table this for now, move to the coastal site plan application, then come back to this real. So, I'm assuming there's no one here uh for that.

So, we will then table I'll take a motion that we tabled this um application until we hear from our fire marshal who was on roof. So moved by uh Denise Savage for um a motion to table. Second. Second. Second by Jane Marsh. All in favor? I

I abstain and denied. Okay. All right. Next item. Postal site plan 10 and 12 10 and 12-1 West End Drive. But I guess you don't have anything on this. Um, we should have it as a coastal site plan yet. This is an act this is an active application. Okay. It can't be acted upon tonight because we just sent it over to Deep for their comments. They had 35 days to get back to us. Okay.

So, even though it's a site plan, doesn't require public hearing, it does theoretically come in as a as a um site plan application. So, we we should introduce it tonight as a as an active application. Thanks. So this is file. These are the applications. I'm going to hand them hand them out.

There's only I think three full sets of the application here. So let me bring a set down here for people to look at and copy another set of plans down there. No, you're the new doctor. Yes. Thank you very much. Nice to meet you.

All right. Good evening. Thank you. My name is Tim.

My name is Tim Dearfo uh with DACA. Um if you had do before you in the past, um I am the new face uh new owner of DACA uh re as of recent. And uh so I just want to introduce myself. We have an office in my original office um original company Sound Engineering Associates is in Fairfield. We have our Mystic office that remains open and staffed. So I am traveling back and forth on a regular basis. So uh nice to meet you all and I will just briefly go through this. This application is a replacement of an existing wall um on the beach in Hawksness uh beach neighborhood on the Thorland on the on the south side. Um the um with with some minor modifications. Um what's currently on site is an uh a Gabian style wall and a Gabian wall. if if you're not familiar with that is a wire cage filled with stone. You may have seen these along a highway.

Okay. And uh se some years ago less than 10 years ago I believe um the Gabian wall was installed approved and installed at this location uh primarily because uh this area um is very susceptible. its location along the beach, its location uh relative, it's immediately adjacent to a timber groin, it's susceptible to periodic erosion and accretion of sand is a very dynamic area. Sand comes and goes. Uh so there's two houses in particular that this that the existing gabian wall protects and it protects the the dwellings from the foundations from being undermined uh should a storm or natural beach erosion occur. Okay. So what had happened is these wall the existing gave walls are not very old. uh they're not meant for marine exposure. These structures, they do not last long. They're all they are a wire uh wire me wire cage and they deteriorate quickly in the saltwater environment. So, uh they were installed unfortunately and they are starting to open up. So, The proposal here is to replace these walls essentially in kind and I'll explain the two minor modifications essentially in kind with a more durable concrete. And the way we're going to do this and the reason one of the reasons why they use the Gabian wall is actually very practical is that you're able to build these offsite and set them and and you can set them in the wet. You don't have to worry about dewatering. there's not a lot of sight disturbance and as a

result. So they're they're very practical um but not in this case. So what we've come up with is a very similar situation where we're going to use concrete but we're going to use pre-cast concrete. So, we're going uh on the second page there's a there's actually a section through that shows you can see the um existing condition versus the proposed condition. And what we're going to do is we're going to have pre-cast concrete block serve as the footings. And then the contract will have the option to use pre-cast stems, wall stem, or cast in place. The pre-cast pudding is the key because that sets you at grade, levels you off, and gets you essentially out of the water. So, the construction other than that, the geometry is essentially the wall height doesn't change.

What's there now, the top of the wall is at elevation six existing the top of the proposed walls, elevation six existing proposed. So, none none of that changes. the the real work is the excavation, removal of the cages and replacement of and and and prepping the site to put the put the wall back in, replacement wall back in. Um the two minor modifications is um one of the homeowners requested that we incorporate some steps into the wall so when when the beach does lose some sand he has easy access onto the beach. Um so we've incorporated that. The second modification is uh an additional 10 ft of wall added to the entire structure and that is if you can see if I may borrow this you can see right here the wall stops a little short of the property line stop about 10 ft short of the property line. So this this homeowner here like to extend it right up to the property owner. Um essentially other than that they're the same structure. Uh they perform the same function. Uh however this will be durable uh and will last. Um so I'm open for questions if you have any.

Well will the steps offer a place for the water to go? It wasn't there. So the top of the steps are going to be at the top of same as the top of the wall. So the and if there is any water can can ride up the steps. It won't go any further than the top than the top of the steps. So it will be because what will happen is in order to make these steps you have to the wall has to actually turn in, right? And then the steps come up. So you're still at elevation six those three sides. So it it's it's a little bit So the steps built outside of the wall like in addition to the wall like they're built into it. Okay. little pocket little pocket into the wall.

So I I coincidentally I walk this site not the whole shoreline there looking for arrowheads like on a regular basis. So I'm always staring at those specifically. Which ones are you talking about? Right. And there's times I see them where they're fully exposed. There's times I see them where they're covered with sand. And most recently they were like extremely exposed due to the storm that we had gotten that accumulated dirt on the other side. Right. So they were looking very exposed as of last week when I was hunting. And um but my question is is how far deep is the new wall? You're saying it's the same. So it's a little bit deeper because I hope it is because the way I'm seeing the scouring is is that it that the wall is going to undermine pretty quickly. Right. Right. From based on the drawings based on the drawings from the old from the old permit.

Um it we're we're showing it relatively to scale here. I don't necessarily have an elevation here, but it looks like it's about elevation. Let's just it it looks like it's about elevation between one and two and we're setting this we're setting this down at elevation minus one another two feet further. Okay. So we are we did take that into consideration to go deeper. Is that enough? Cuz like it's well stairs that are washed out right the concrete foundations.

Yeah. It becomes a there becomes a pract there becomes a practical limit between the cost and the you know at what you're actually building you know and and at some point you're are you really building up you know we want to stay we're a little bit into the wet even at minus one so dewatering are you having to get a cop to do that right now the site is um to survey yeah it's it's outside the jurisdiction jurisdiction so So here we are. If we have to go and get a cop at some point for this workbench. Well, you're still getting the coastal site plan review from deep anyway. So exactly. I don't it's the same. Well, it's it's different. But I understand

we may have to go through that approval process, but I'm not really I'm hoping that we don't. Um and uh but if we do, we will. Yeah. Well, I mean it's you have grounds to, but it's it's a cop. It's not new structures still. and we've already got a we've already got a Connecticut D permit for it. Correct. So, we don't see a problem uh with replacing it. So, I would really just call this aside from the two modifications I mentioned a really replacement in kind with a more durable construction. So, so I have a my knowledge level of hydraulics is minimal at the best. And uh so there's gonna be a sixoot wall and in a velocity wave

that hits in theory a velocity wave could hit and then spray up. Yes. If a velocity wave is coming in at the sixoot level or 5 foot level let's say aren't those stairs going to have a direct channel up to bring direct water? They could. But just keep in mind that that's when you are talking about what's happening at elevation six. It's not a it's not a significant event enough for when waves are happening at that low elevation because we are in a ve um you are yeah that's we are in a VE I don't recall off top my head yes but it's it's my guess is I think it's 11 or 12 something like that it's a V12 okay so it's a V12 here so

this whole neighborhood is underwater during that event okay but even smaller events might as well take it's like the high tide king tide that was like Yes. So, but that that can can e can easily can easily happen. Okay. Um the the site is relatively flat. Um there are areas you this is really uh a bit of a the either side of the property neither of them have these walls, right?

So, we don't we don't Yeah. We don't see the water really impacting anything that comes up through that small area impact which is also the same reason why I don't think extending the wall 10 ft is really going to make a difference to any really anything out there. So, can you just explain then again why you're going with the solid concrete versus I mean I know you said the marine there's many there's many there's many materials there's many materials we can use right

so the gabian walls are clearly not marine structure um and so you can use we can use stone we can use concrete use timber Um we do steel. Yeah. Right. Each one is a different kind of structure. Each one has its own um kind of design associated with it. Right. So I'm a structural engineer by my practice. Uh the concrete was chosen. It's a low-lying structure, but it is going to be the least costly installation.

And the ability for us to be able to cast the footings in blocks either offsite or in the yard make make it very practical because it becomes very much like the cages that they use. So they they cast the blocks with key with keyholes. They pick them up, drop them in, and then they can put up formwork at a little higher elevation and stay out of the tide. So it becomes a very practical solution. That's that's essentially why we chose that. Okay. Performance-wise, it's not going to perform any different than the new Gavian wall did because there is that when that white gave wall was installed new, it is essentially a solid okay structure.

Yeah. It does not really offer it. It's it's loose stone inside a cage, but it doesn't offer the kind of went wave absorption that a an armored shoreline would offer. Okay. No, that's fair. So, it's it's a pack they're packed stones in the cage. They they behave like a solid structure. So, and the stones are leaking out of that structure. They are. They are. And and the concern is, you know, cleaning up all the you know, more that come out of it. It's just a mess to clean up those stones. The idea is going to be, you know, how making sure that the we we we capture all of those.

I thought, again, I am not a structural engineer, but I thought the reason for a gabian wall was to actually allow the pressure from the water to uh go through. Well, that's it does. It does, but that's in a different sense. Okay. So, so what it does is a a gabian structure is a permeable structure. So, if you're using it, let's say not in a marine environment, you're using it on a regular upland environment and you have rain, you have groundwater and you have, it will not allow hydrostatic pressure to build up behind it. So, if you have a retaining wall, it's holding the land. So, a regular retaining wall would see you. Yes. You don't. So you don't have to worry about that in a gabian wall because water passes right through.

Yeah. But passes right through in a hydrostatic condition. When a wave is hitting it, it's some water is going to pass obviously pass through it. But it's so good theory. It doesn't in in this particular location. It's not been it's not doing what it's not absorbing the wave energy. It does not do that. All right. So this is in all sense an erosion control structure. as it has been previously authorized. So, um it the idea is for it to hold the material behind it. Uh and we're just trying to replace it as in kind as possible in a in a more practical way. So, looking at that, you'll actually see those on

the difference from the from the landside and from storm water. Yes. How's the the less permeable concrete wall going to affect? So, we're in a beach we're in a beach environment. So there's beach sand in front of the wall. There's also beach sand all behind the wall. All the houses are in beach. So any water that is in the upland side of there is going to drain out immediately. There's really not. Yeah. There's really not a conditions. It's going to be the most permeable medium we're running into here. So I don't see it as an issue. And the footings are blocks. They're individual blocks. They're never going to be, you know, we're gonna put them together, but they're not.

There's going to be joints in between them, and those joints are going to allow water to pass through. So, for example, in that sense, yeah, Eric, I just out of curiosity, is there any scenario in which a situation like this, we would want to seek input from our colleagues on the flood and erosion board? Flood and erosion board. Um, I hadn't considered that. We certainly could. Um, again, we're sending this to deep because it's a mandatory before we send it to the engineer for that. I I had not considered that. We have to come back next month anyway. So if you'd like me to send it over to flood erosion control

and and I know that they're not going to necessarily, you know, they're not going to override anything that deep is saying, but also just for their general awareness as they're looking at a lot of these issues along the entire coastline. Okay. I I think it could be informative. I'm happy to send it along to them. I had not considered that. I'm happy to to do that between now and next meeting. Eric, I just have a question about the extension of the wall. Are there any uh sideyard setbacks we need to be concerned about? Given the height of the wall, it doesn't reach the the structural requirement for our purposes there. So, I think we're okay with that. But I'll double check to make sure that we're not double check on that. Um if it's less than

the height I'm not as concern I'm I'm thinking more, you know, it's height and width, but it's a sideyard setback for stroke. Okay, let me look look at that. We have specific rules for retaining walls that are slightly different. So, I'll go check retaining wall versus what our setback requirements are. Yeah, because that's one thing. You know, a lot of times when you put a retaining wall aside of someone else's property, all of a sudden their property is just there. So, does anything land uh go into the water associated with this project? Same thing. Yeah. No, no. We Well, we're excavating. Yeah.

So, the work the work includes the last page shows a site um site utilization plan. So stop where our stockpile area is, where our excavation area is. Um they have to keep their work out of the water jurisdiction unless they get a deep permit. Yeah. Yeah. We So we're we we actually designed this when we had the survey done and we saw that the the close jurisdiction line was was way out. We said let's design this so we stay all of the equipment, materials, the silk fence, everything stays landward of the CJL. We just don't want to cross that line, which is good because it makes it exclusively in your jurisdiction.

So that's what we do. So this this shows that we're doing we're having a stockpile in their in their front yard over here by the road and they're going to be in accessing in between the two dwellings. Um and there is one other item that I need to address um which may be something you might you folks will consider. Uh this wall to existing extends into the neighboring property currently at number 14. It was authorized like that. It's built like that now. Uh we're going to replace it like that. The that's this owner uh Tim Devivo has uh h has is providing a letter of support for this. He has no problem with it. He believes that he believes that omitting this would be a mistake.

Okay. Because it would create a channel, right? That ties back into the retirement. It goes right into it goes right into the jetty. Right into the jetty here. It needs to do that. Okay. Except you've now said something trigger something on my end. Actually, fine. That's why I said it because if it does, it does. amend your application to include that property because can we have can we simply have a letter authorizing them to perform the work on this property that's great however the application itself needs to include that number okay

because that number is one of the properties affected by this work so I'm okay with the letter support that's great but you also physically need to amend the application to include all three properties where the work is being conducted fair absolutely happy to do that. Okay, that's not that's not a problem. Okay, not a big deal. But I just again to be technically complete application, you need to include every property that is and again the letter from him indicates he's signing the application because you need him to signing the application that

we're great. Well, that's why I brought it up. I wanted to make sure we didn't we didn't uh miss miss that because I knew that that could be a touch a touchy issue. Um, but those are all those are essentially all the issues. And um I have do you have any more questions? I guess I guess I'll be here next month this is helpful because it's good to take the time to go through it. So yeah for us yes I that exactly so I really really appreciate Eric's ability to get us on the agenda. So thank you because this was a very short um request and you were able to to do that. So thank you very much.

I I will admit I have not had a chance to do a detailed review of it. just came in early last week and I was out sick Thursday, Friday, but I wanted to get to start the D clock rolling. So, they'll need all 35 of those days. Yes, they will. Again, so that's they will they will. So, again, the goal is to have their review for December 8th meeting. Okay. Can I Yeah. Can I just ask a question of process only because some towns are a lot of I work in a lot of towns. Don't I don't know what the process is here. Um, if the connect comes back and says they want us to file a coop, can you issue an approval conditionally?

I I believe we can. Yeah. At that point, because they're totally separate jurisdictions at that point in time. So, we handle our jurisdiction. We'll tell you go get, you know, and whether we say it or not, you still need to do it. Yeah. So, I think I don't know that we're conditioning it based on the co there. You're going to need to do it anyway. So it's a we'll act on our piece, we'll act on their piece. Okay. And until you have both pieces together, you're not doing All right. Yes. You won't need our in order to get deeper. No, no, but you'll need that. All right. Good night. Thank you. Thank you. Like that the pieces, right? This was once said here.

That's my one. That's two or three. I'm not sure. That's existing as I say. So, let's go back and put this crap the way it was that makes more sense. It's 14. You have a little I think on his Okay. So, here we go. This is going to go back with that. Okay. So, now we're going to resume the public hearings. I believe it's commercial available here.

Yes, we ready to sir. Well, yeah. Do you guys have anything to say? We're not resuming the public hearing. Okay. Mr. Fire Marshall, sir. Good evening. Good evening. Well, all right. How can I help you?

We um we're here um with an application from the country club, it's it's an application that we're supplementing because in the initial application to do the modifications, it said provided that there was no blasting. Um so the application now is to come back because there has to be some control of micro blasting. that occurs in certain areas of the site. I think part of it was the parking lot.

There's three areas I guess that have to be done. So, um we just want to I think the commission just wants your insight as to how you end up controlling the blasting on this project or where your where your expertise and where does your jurisdiction come in. All right. First off, uh, everything you've seen on TV about blasting and blowing up rock, throw it away because it's all theatrics. What they have up there, if you've ever been to the country club, that's a very tall pile of rock. I believe it's granite or another seriously hard material. When they applied their original uh permit, there was a possibility of small areas of rock being have to be excavated for in the parking area for the expansion of the building. Consequently, after that and during that time when they applied for their original approval, they did not feel that they had to um do blasting at that time because they thought it was a small amount. And correct me if I'm wrong.

Okay. Uh Matt Glazer from I believe what Newfield. Yes. Um consequently it finds out that there's a larger amount of rock that has to be removed uh to accomplish the permit the application that you already approved and putting on the addition. the understand that you had a conversation with uh one of the Connecticut blasters from Connecticut explosives came in and gave you a somewhat of a presentation on how micro blasting works. Yes. A good presentation.

Okay. Uh basically on my side I can tell you how the permitting process goes. Not everybody can buy, transport or use uh explosive materials in the state of Connecticut. It's very highly regulated. It's regulated at the state level and it's again regulated at the federal level. When a blaster gets involved in a construction project to minimize or reduce the density of rock for whatever reason on a site, they do a lot of pre blast uh operations such as one taking a look at the topography, figuring out the geology area of it, finding out what the conse the uh materials are, And then they determine with the s with the uh architect and the construction managers on what areas that they need to they would like to have broken up for a lack of a better word. At that point in time they go back they have a site application or a site map that they have a geolog a geographical area what they want to do. They also have the information on how deep the uh contractor wants to go with uh removing rock and then they do mathematical calculation to determine how many holes or how many drill holes are going to be needed to break this up so it's manageable. They also go and calculate out the load capacities or the load capabilities of different types of explosive materials and they determine the best explosive material that they want to work with to accomplish this task. And then they do additional calculations on determining what the timing would be between. Say they

drilled 12 holes in an area the size of this table and they wanted to go down eight feet. This is all hypothetical but it's an example. So they calculate how many holes they have to drill, how far they're apart, what angle they're at, which way do they want to frack the rock. Um, and then doing all that mathematical calculation, they're able to determine which material they're going to use that'll give them the quote unquote best bang for the buck or the most cost effective way. And then they apply for a permit. Now, no blasting in the state of Connecticut go on without local fire marshals approval. And the state statutes and the requirements at state level require that nobody can transport, use, transport or purchase explosive materials without a federal and a state license. State statutes and state requirements state that on any property on any structure uh anything within a 300 ft area between of the blasting location any butters or adjacent property owners they have to be formally notified.

How many feet was that? 300. 300. So and we also Give me a second. What was the the closest the butter? There's over 300. They're all over. They're all over 300. They're all over 300. That's correct. Okay. So, looking at that, they're not uh bound by the requirements to notify in a butter because they're outside just there. 56. Okay.

Okay. They also when I issue a blasting permit, I verify their license. I verify their insurance. I verify their uh vehicle that they're transporting materials with. They give me a accurate count of how many blasting how many blasting caps and how many uh pounds of material that they're going to be using. I can request and look at a blasting pattern to see how many holes what the holes what the ho what the depth and the angles of the holes are and review that. I require them to have seismic monitoring at the edge of the blasting site and again at the property line because that will give you a realistic soundwave trans uh transition from the point of detonation to the farthest part parcel or far farthest decision de uh distance of the property before it jumps into a either a town land or a another private property. Um and then I get uh I issue them the permit. We issue the permit for 30 days only. They do it in 30-day cycles. Uh trying to expedite these blasting contractors are instate. They usually come in when they apply for a permit uh give them the permit and then they usually come in with a drill rig or an auger drill to start punching holes in the rock to start preparing their patterns. But everything that before they get the permit issued, everything is basically on paper. There's no real activities other than possibly bringing in their equipment and staging their equipment beforehand. Once they get the permit, then they're able to drill, order the material, deliver the material, and shoot the material. And on the day of the shoot, I will let me know when they're doing it. I will come out sometimes depending upon the proximity or the uh size of the

blasts uh I'll come out and witness the first shot or two. And what I'm looking for is finding making sure that they have licensed personnel on the scene working the explosives at the time. Making sure that the registration of their vehicle is still current since issuing the permit. making sure that uh adjacent or uh seismic monitoring is set up at the blast site at that 300 foot or the adjacent or the end of the property line and they go from there. One of the the biggest advantage of doing explos controlled explosive demolition like this on blasting is those of your constituents whoever, if you know live down in the Mile Creek area during the month of August, they had the pleasure of listening to a hydraulic hammer eight hours a day, five days a week for five weeks at the middle school at the mile creek school because the contractor decided there to break it up with a hammer versus doing explosives down there. The advantage of doing blasting, especially on a project like this where it is a very large granite knob up there, uh it's quick, it's very efficient, it's a minimal disruption to everybody around and it keeps a project going on a more even keel. With the Mile Creek project on that was down there, that hammer was there eight hours a day listening to it. And I know the neighbors my phone was blowing up too literally with how long is this going to happen.

So question. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I mean that was the what the main reason we we really appreciate you coming out because last last meeting at that point um we had been informed that you hadn't weighed in on so

I forgot all about that. I was invited to it. uh going with Eric, it's like, you know, we work on this stuff every day when it comes through. I just forgot about putting it on my calendar that night. But I would looking at this, you know, I'm not trying to weigh a decision or give you an opinion. My professional opinion alone is they're using skilled contractors. They're following by the license. Their safety is any contractor, blasting contractor they use, they haven't contract, they haven't signed with anybody yet pending this approval. Uh the four blasters in the state of Connecticut are all highly qualified to do this work. Does it concern you that nobody from the public

huh is here? No. So you'll get those phone calls then later. That's the thing. It's done. There's still going to be drilling. The drilling is a lot quieter than, you know, putting a Yeah. 70 ton machine up there with a hydraulic hammer, pounding eight hours a day, letting it echo down everywhere everywhere in here.

Uh, my personal question is going with Eric is trying to figure out how we got here in the first place. And I think it was more of a concern of of the commission saying, you know, trying to go with the whatifs, but there's there's planning and procedures in place to permit this project. I have no problem doing my the responsibilities that I have. So, in closing on this, if you don't have any other questions, I strongly recommend that you uh give me the opportunity to continue and we'll report back if you'd like. Uh, in regards to the planning, I can feed Eric information on the planning or I can come back here and let you know what the results were.

Well, that was one of the conditions of approval last time if I recall. Basically, whatever reports you get, you transmit to me so I can show them to the commission after you get them. Basically, I get a copy of the permit.

And one of the great things about blasters, they're very highly insured. And in the unlikely event that an adjacent property does get hypothetically damaged in the beginning before it uh the blasters do like I said earlier when the blasters within 300 ft of the work to adjacent property they are required to notify the abutters here we're outside it one of the things you may I would I'm going to suggest because of the concerns of everybody here is to have them go out and do a uh pre-blast survey or at least reach out. They've already

even if the property's 700 ft away, it's like, "Hey, um from XYZ lasting, we're going to be doing work up here. Would you like your house inspected prior to our work?" Whatever. Yep. Good. Thank you, sir. You're welcome, sir. appreciate anything for Oh, before any any questions from the applicants of Okay, good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your time.

All right, then. Does the commission have any more questions? Anyone? Anything? Okay. Then I will uh ask for a motion that we close the public hearing for the um So moved. So moved. Okay. Is there a second? Second. Second. I got two. I couldn't get it fast enough. All right. We'll give it to Mary Gardner. So, uh, for there was a motion to close the public hearing by Denise Savage and seconded by Mary, um, whatever. There's too many there's too many like

I'm watching you try and figure it out over here. Just I know exactly. Uh, all in favor opposed abstain. All right, the public hearing is closed. So then we will go into the next agenda item which is does he got a regular meeting? Do we have to that's the next agenda item. Okay. I'm running this show my friend not you. I just I the agenda.

Okay. So thank you. Oh sh Oh we got to go back this one. Okay. The regular meetings. All right. So, is there any discussion on the application uh brought before the commission from the um country club? Again, you still have the three conditions from last time as I recall. Right. I was going to I was going to I think Denise has them up, right? Okay. So then I will take a motion entertain a motion to

approve the application as with conditions as noted in from the October 10th meeting which which there were three conditions when October when 14th. October 14th to which there were three conditions and I believe now we're adding an additional or are we set with those three? Can you repeat them? Yeah, let's repeat that. But I don't think there's additional one, but I think we're I think

All right, let's let's do it this way. I will take a motion then to um approve the application for the country club as conditions as we did last month with the three conditions which we let's just read them out so everybody's aware of what those conditions are.

Yeah, the three conditions are um the first one limit micro blasting to three areas shown on the plan. The second one is the micro blasting guidelines as completed be submitted to the zoning officer uh prior to blasting taking place and three the blasting seismic monitoring reports will be added to the file uh file post blasting. Okay. Is and I'll make and I'll make a motion to approve with those conditions. Did we did we want to put then the pre-ervey piece in there? No, they're outside of it. They're going to I believe they're going to do that as a courtesy as a courtesy, but we don't have to put it as a condition.

Legally, they're outside of the uh the boundary. Okay. I just wanted to make sure Yeah, I understood where it landed. So then there's a motion then to approve with those three conditions. He's made the motion. He has made the motion. Is there any discussion? Second. Yeah. Oh, second first. Oh, very second. Second by Mary Joe Nos. Mr. Chair, if I may, that you're in discussion again. Uh, one, you're limit remember it's a construction site. You're limiting them to what did you just say? Three

three. You said the three locations shown on the map that they've given us. Okay. So in the event in the event that they stay within those parameters and they find out after explo uh doing the activities and excavation they have to go farther. Do they have to come back again? It's an it's the area where we know they're blasting. It's not I mean it's about like we have to take the bedrock out here. So how they how they have to take that out. So it's more a geographic location. So they're but their application is for three areas and three areas only. Correct. So if they have to move to a fourth area or if it expands beyond the area shown on the map. Yeah.

I would say it's coming back at least to me for a determination whether this is a minor modification or whether this is significant change. Yes. If it's a minor modification, I'm not going to send them back here for a new approval. If it turns out that they need to blast a whole new section of rock, then I probably am going to send them back here at that point in time because as long as they continue to do their activities with that they're defined areas. Defined areas. Yes. Yeah. That's they they've drawn basically circles on the map saying we're working on these three areas.

As long as they're within those three areas that they're good to go. And I would say if there's any hiccups like oh boy then they come back to Eric and Eric makes the determination whether it's minor or major. I continue to work with Eric. Yes please. Sure it is. I urge you to support. Okay. Thank you. So we have a motion. We have a second. Is there any additional discussion? Okay. Then all in favor of the motion as presented I I

opposed abstain. Okay. Then the application um as re-reviewed is approved 500. Thank you.

Back. Okay. We have the next item is to receive and set the public hearing for special permit and coastal site plan 96 Lime Street. Renovation and expansion of the Creable Gallery and Associated Site improvements. Florence Griswald Museum is applicant. Could we have one of the sets down? I'm about to have you go through the entire thing. At least I wanted you to see what I have multiple copies of upstairs. So, okay. Okay. Huge plans. New office.

So, uh I'm Pete Steer, the interim director for the museum. This is N Murphy, uh who works with Udens, who's our architect. And so, this is an expansion that the museum has been considering for several years. Um, finally coming to the point where we have drawings and some money and the opportunity to sort of take advantage of a opportunity to grow the the business um and sort of in enhance the campus in a way that sort of matches the stature of the museum. Okay. Okay. Again, I don't know how much you'd want to hear tonight. want to hear anything. We want to get a quick synopsis or are we ready to

wait till next month if we set it for next month? I wouldn't mind a quick synopsis. Can we do a quick synopsis? We can do a quick synopsis. I know you've already been here for a while this evening, but we can keep it brief just to five minutes or less. That would be wonderful. Um, so I might just cliff notes, please.

One page of the plan. Uh, let's see if I can find Um I know you probably can't see it down at the end of the table, but the um if you're familiar with the Florence Grisswald um museum property there, it's a collection of buildings and there's nine buildings in total on the grounds. Kind of the flagship building is the Florence Grisswald's house right on Lime Street. Um, our work is focused on the Crebel Gallery, which is the newest building on the property, built around 2001. Um, and we're planning to expand the Creable Gallery building um by around 5,000 square feet. Um, and that's primarily gallery space. There's also an education center um to kind of expand the programming opportunities at the museum and a new entrance into that existing building. Um what we're really trying to do kind of holistically on the site is make the landscape uh kind of the primary um uh part of the visitor experience more than any of the buildings specifically. Um historically this property was kind of a source for painters that were boarding at the Florence Grizzwald House um where they would go out and paint um at the turn of the century. Um, so we want the landscape to be kind of very prominent in the visitor experience. Right now, when you arrive on the site, there's a giant asphalt driveway that brings you in and really chops up the property and and the landscape is really secondary. Um, so we propose in it's a two-phase project. Um, but they'll be those phases will be built hopefully back to back in short order, but in phase one adding a new entry drive. Um, so most visitors when they arrive on Lime Street can quickly get to parking without having to circulate deeper into the property.

That's setting us up for phase two where we eliminate this driveway entirely and this entire central part of the landscape becomes pedestrian only. Um, and we we reinvent the the entry to this building. But phase one is relocating that road and building an addition on the west side or kind of the river side of the existing building which is all gallery space and an education center. Um well that's where you're eliminating all the impervious with the road and just adding

Yeah. So all of this goes away and because this is just a much shorter distance um there's a net reduction in imperous surface at kind of the full completion of the project. um which makes storm water, you know, easier to manage overall. Um in in phase two, all the traffic at this point is rerouted directly into the parking lot. We do have to reconfigure the lots to add certain number of spaces um and and and make sure there's enough handicap parking in this main lot. the existing driveway gets transformed into something more like a farm lane that's not meant for everyday vehicular traffic but can serve um emergency vehicles. Um but it would be um you know two kind of cobbled um kind of drive aisles um the planted section in between um and it's it's meant to be pedestrian only outside of kind of emergency vehicle access and there's a gate um at that point to restrict traffic. Um so then this whole central area becomes um pedestrian area. Um there's new plantings, native plantings, walkways, stone walls that start to articulate the edges of that. Um and then in phase two, we add a new front entrance onto the Creable building. And that front entrance, if you know that building now, it's down a series of stairs or kind of a long ramp from parking. We're going to bring it up so that it's level um with kind of the larger landscape. You're not going down into a depression. Um, so it's much easier to access from parking and easier to integrate kind of indooroutdoor experience. Um, and that's really the theme throughout the project is kind of knitting the indoor outdoor the experience of being in the building

linking to views to the landscape and things like that. So that's I'm probably over time. Um, which is a couple other things that we're we're doing. We met with the historic district commission this morning. um they their jurisdiction is actually quite minor. It's really just kind of this section of the site. Um you know, a portion of the new driveway. Um but we're seeking, you know, a certificate of appropriateness from them. Um we've also submitted the same application to the Gateway Conservation Commission. Um because they have kind of purview of this given its um adjacency to the river, Lieutenant River. Um and we're going to meet with them on uh I think it's December 6th is their next meeting. So those are in motion um you know in addition to coming back here next month. So happy to answer questions but that's

I just have one if you if you have this kind of arrangement how does fire trucks and stuff like that get to your building? Yep. So so this is trafficable by the fire truck. This is something we've talked to um fire chief about.

Um and then in terms of exiting out, there's this section of probably maybe shows better on a landscape drawing. Um I had one. Well, it's actually quite faint, but there's a section of space here that is reinforced turf is what it's called. Um here it is. That's 24 feet wide to accommodate the radius of the truck and get it out back into the paved asphalt area. Um that's basically a buildup of um like well draining um stabilized soil so that it can support the way to firetruck. Um so the fire truck can access the widths and the radi are all um accommodated here. It's a good question though because if if um fire equipment needed back access to the back of the building, it doesn't show in this particular drawing, but there's a gate that brings them down to the connect.

I was going to say I thought they had access in the back, too. That's existing. That's exist. That's existing. Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah. So, you know, effectively when this is all built there, the you'll have the same amount of access that you currently have just in a you know, it just it's more looks and feels, right? Yeah. Right. What's the current size of the building?

So, the current um there's actually two kind of conjoined buildings. Uh there is this a building called the Marshfield House which is where Cafe Flow is if you've um ever been there. And and there's the Creable Building um which are one combined building around 12,000 square feet currently. Um maybe it's around that right. Yeah. think um we're adding a kind of a net uh um ad of 5,000 about 17,000 square feet. Thanks. And more than half of that is new gallery space, which is

um there's a lot of collection that's sequestered away in a storage room um and some of it offsite and so it'd be nice to have more opportunities to show that to the public. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Look forward to talking more in a month. Yes. I'm sure if there's anything that we need to provide in the meantime, Eric will reach out to us. Yes, he will. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. So, I will take a motion that we set the public hearing for the um renovation and expansion of the Creable Gallery for the month of December. December 8th. 8th. Is there a motion? So moved.

Okay. Second. Second by Mary Joe Nos. The motion was made by Mary Gardner Copala. All in favor? I opposed and abstained. Okay. Next month it is. Thank you gentlemen. Have a good night. You as well. I think they set for a reason. Okay. Approval of minutes. the October 14th regular meeting and the October 20th special meeting. Motion to motion to approve both by Mary Joe. Is there a second? Second.

Second by Denise. Any discussion? No discussion. All in favor? Opposed? Abstain. Approval of both the minutes for October 14th and the 20th are approved. 500 public comment. Eric, you want to Yeah. This one here?

Yeah. Originally, I reh received an email from Mark Debbolt uh who wanted to come in and talk about the affordable housing uh potential for those two locations. He has since indicated he did not want to come to us tonight. He wanted to first start with the affordable housing commission um and then come to us at some point later when he had more definitive answers as to, you know, what he he was doing there. Um, you did receive a letter from the neighbors. You did receive a response email from Mr. Debolt, but there is no application pending and no possibility of an application in the immediate future. So, we're going to just put that aside for tonight. Okay. Okay.

Um, there's no sort of CEO comments in here, so I'm just going to interject briefly. There was another person that came in just today had asked to be put on the agenda. Um, I talked it over with the chair in light of the fact that I thought Mr. Deba was going forward in light of our otherwise very full agenda. Um I indicated she would be coming forward probably next month. Um 230 Shore Road is sort of a business park there that is pretty much empty at the moment. Um woman has come forward who's indicated she wants to go in there. Unfortunately her use does not meet our regulations at the moment. um she runs a forprofit private school and if you look at your regulations that you're limiting private schools simply to ones that are nonprofit um or governmental um so not allowed in that location. So she would like to sort of come and say this is what I do. It's for profit. It doesn't meet your regs. What are your thoughts about potentially changing the regs at some point to accommodate me?

Um the other piece was medical use offices she wanted to do as well. Well, no. I mean, okay. The the things that she does are she has a school for um autistic or otherwise sort of challenged special ed kids. Okay. And then she also does prechool type evaluations for kids who aren't in school yet. So, it wouldn't be a doctor's office per se, but it would be sort of evaluation for kids who are not yet tied to the same use.

Tied to the same use. Um, but again, she indicated she is not a 501c3. She does this for profit. Um, and again, your rig specifically prohibit that use in the C30 zone. At least it's not the the the you the rag specifically says it has to be a nonprofit use. So, she wanted to come in and talk to you about that. Um, and again given timing, I just said probably not tonight, but she has indicated she's willing to come back in December for that. What does that do for us if we can't approve it because it's not part of the regulations?

Well, there are sort of two different options. Um, one is you're in the process of amending your regs and some point you can say as part of the next round where we'll consider this as part of it. She can always ask for a reggg change right now. She can file an application for a rag change. she could take it up. Um, theoretically, she could ask the ZBA for a use variance. However, use variances are pretty much prohibited under our reg. So, I can't really see that there would be a reason to grant a variance for that use. Um, it's not like the building has no other viable uses. So, um, realistically, either through your own review of your own regulations or through her seeking to amend the regulations, um, she would have to do some sort of text change. But again, she didn't want to start down that road until she had a sense from you that you would be receptive to hearing that sort of application.

So, would the members of the commission like to hear um what the proposed plan would be or open to discussion here? I don't want to bring her in if it's a if it's a non-starter. Well, I guess how is it defined as a school? Let me read you with the Rex when in doubt for the next. Let's read the Rex. Oh, depending on shift because you're going to read the R.

Uhuh. Okay. Um, so the the requirement is philanthropic, educational, recreation, or religious non-residential use by a dy organized nonprofit entity or governmental unit. right now presently in the C30 that that is C30 right now. So we allow it now just but only for nonprofit only for nonprofit which a nonprofit is really just nonprofit.

Okay. So again what she is saying is I am not a nonprofit but this is what I do. Would you consider amending the regs to allow me to do it there? But again she doesn't want to start the process unless she thinks that this is something you guys would be would entertain. Right. So that's my question is would we like to hear from her and consider possibly or

I mean the fact that that's a retail building that's now completely empty because Simpson Healthcare moved out of there. You we're not batting really well over there in retail space for occupancy, right? Like there's a lot of vacant buildings already over there. So, I think that we should seriously consider the ability of a of removing the nonprofit status out of the regulation. I don't know what we have to lose, but I also don't know what we have to gain. Well, again, it's a special permit use. So, even if you were to allow it theoretically, um, you still have to then determine that this is the right use for this location. So, you're not, this wouldn't be an automatic approval if you allowed it. It was just simply offer her the opportunity to come in with an application

under the regulation amendment. Yeah. Were you to remove the nonprofit requirement all again all it would do would be to make her eligible to apply for the special permit. Eric, I I don't know if it's something you can answer, but do we understand what the historical reasoning was behind setting this up so that it was or I should say Jane for having for for explicitly saying it has to be nonprofit or or government? I mean, was just this type of educational institution not envisioned at the time or

Definitely not envisioned um at the time. the expansion of the concept of um nonprofits to where they are now where they look pretty indistinguishable from for profits was not anticipated. That's a good point of it as well. Okay. And at that point you had a lot of these sort of shady trade schools that were operating like ITC whatever you get a lot of these things that were out there. I think there was a sense that you didn't want those sorts of trade schools setting up here for profit and then scamming people. But it but it's you know the the former sort of understanding about nonprofits were that they had a certain other standing in your the social fabric,

right? And that they would be um safer. It wasn't a tax haven. Yeah. It was a safer thing that they weren't going to do anything they could conceive of to try to make money, right? Um and so they were a safer thing to allow in in a um commercial zone. I I think also one of the things were the pre particularly with the preschool um you know we and daycare we didn't we always thought we schools were always said they were for education but you know preschools and daycare which you know a lot of times operate the same thing they'll do a daycare and do the preschool there those are a lot of those are operating as for profit now you know and we never anticipated having that that real need

it sounds like this might be something that we would potentially to be reconsidering in the regulation reh point there's there's been a lot of fraud with or there will have you know with with for profits

but what he's saying is that it would still be a special permit so they'd still have to come in front of us and we could evaluate them because it is now forprofit you can't use the fact that you're uncertain about a for-profit enterprise as the reason to turn them down. So 230 shore falls within the shoreline gateway and the shoreline gateway committee has sent out a survey and is actively working on what what they would like to see happen in that whole district. So whatever we do, I think we should include them in the discussion because they're that's in their

but this would open and to this sort of um enterprise in any place in the C30. It would change your entire C30 zone townwide. So, which the C30 zone is pretty narrow as it sits. Well, but again, Hall's Road is also C3. C30S. Yes. The differences between C30 and C30s are pretty insignificant. So, I mean, you can limit it just to C30 for sure. Yeah. Um, but you know, again, there are there's C30 a little bit on Route One. Um, there are sort of places around town it does pop up. Um, but no, you don't have huge amounts of C30 throughout the town.

It's been reduced significant, especially with old lime seafood going out that now the garden place is gone. So, those have been absorbed by residential properties. So, we just lost 15 acres there. I mean, I think there are some challenges. We need to be cautious, but I think not hearing it because, you know, like I said, I think particularly in the preschool sector, you see that a lot and there's such a need for preschool and um daycare. And this may be something where I can go back to Francisco Gomes and say, can you give me suggestions for appropriate language of how to incorporate this where you we would avoid some of these risks that people are worried about?

Yeah. Is daycare permitted use right now in the C30 or um Well, I don't think it is. Let's see. and medical. So if she came if she came in to us, it would be to just present her business plan. I mean, what would we be hearing? For right now, because it's not permitted by the reg. Yeah. She would I'm not sure give you a business plan, but she would give you sort of nature of what she does. Yeah. Because she does this elsewhere apparently. would be looking to open up a branch here in our town and she would say,

"Look, if you think this is a beneficial thing for your town, would you consider a an amendment to your regulations to allow it in this zone?" She would then have to go away and file an amendment to the regs to do that. But again, she doesn't want to have to go through that process unless she has a sense that you are potentially going to go with it. Yeah. I'm trying to understand what we would be evaluating when she's in front of us. Well, she could do two things, right, Eric? If I'm not mistaken, she could simultaneously file both applications at the same time, the regulation amendment and the site plan approval at the same time, right? She could, but again,

this person's interest is in in her business, right? Not necessarily looking out after the the rest of the C30s. The challenge is I don't mean that negatively. is just trying to understand the challenge is obviously obvious she cares about her business. Your your job is the zoning regulations generally. So you would have to weigh whether you think that changing the regulations generally is a good idea, a bad idea, whatever. And again, all of the issues that you're already talking about regarding,

you know, fraudulent use or whatever else versus daycare, all all of those things. Um, and it may be again that you may be just able to more narrowly tailor a definition for her kind of use without more broadly opening the door to forprofit schools generally. Okay. So, we may want to look at listening to what she's saying and then say, would this definition work for your combination of uses? and then go back and say, "Well, we don't want to allow for-profit schools generally, but for this particular subset, we would be willing to consider it." And then however, you know, yes,

like a behavioral thing, right? Like it's doing behavioral activities. Yeah. Well, again, I'm not going to try and tell you all of what she's This is why we want to have potentially have her in to describe it to you. Um, I'm not going to be the best person to describe you what what she is or is doing, but I'm sort of giving you just quickly though, you did mention, you know, um, that also she was possibly, you know, doing some type of therapy work or whatever and that would be allowed. Don't we have medical office? That's we do. Yes. But the because she has the the the school piece of the puzzle, the school is part of it. Yeah, that one piece is kind of allowed, but the other piece Yeah. And that's I just want to make sure it's like we're it's only the school

the therapy piece by itself would be okay. But she's sort of leading with the school because that's going to be essentially a five day a week, six hour a day, whatever that piece of the puzzle is. Um and then the therapy piece is sort of as needed appointment basis or whatever else. So I think the the more predominant primary use would be the school type use with this other use again being ancillary to the the primary use. Would would this school fall under all the other requirements that you know the fire code and all of that would Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So she'd have to do some major or there would have to be some major work.

I presume so. And we can talk to the to Dave about what that would look like. Yeah. I mean building there doesn't mean it would be no out pretty extensively, right? But but again, that's sort of putting the cart before the horse in the sense that

we're talking about a reggg change. And so the reg change again applies townwide to all C30. But again, at that point, when you come in with a special permit application for this particular location, we can ask for all the other things that you would be asking for for that location. Much like when you went for the pediatrician's office on Route One, you asked for that sort of information regarding the elevator and all the other things and where the parking is going to be and all all those things you got for the pediatrician who was going in on Route One. Could she go has she got it?

Um I think I've got Yeah, I did get the the building application came through zoning for me to sign off on. So yeah, it has gone through. So is changing the regulations across town the the in all C30 the only regulatory path for this understanding that variance is unlike vanishingly unlikely do an overlay

you know I mean the if you can't get a use variance which I don't think she can then the only other way to go in is to amend your regs or to tell her to find some other location in town where this potentially could be done but in looking through your regs every time you talk about school you limit school to nonprofit. You don't have a for-profit school built into any of your other zones. So again, for this type of use to be allowed in town, you would need to amend your zone zoning regulations in some way, shape, or form. Do we have a definition of of um schools versus learning centers? I don't think we do, but that may be the

Can I ask so um in terms of timelines, if we um again, I I don't want to say optics per se, but this idea if we do a oneoff zoning rewrite for one particular case as we're going through this whole process, like does that open the door to other pain points for us? And I only say that because I mean conceptually, personally, I love this idea. I know I I have direct experience with these types of schools and they can be just such an amazing resource for families in the community. So, I'm inclined to say, "Oh, let's do what we can to support a business like this." At the same time, the timing of it is just seems unfortunate for her.

Yeah, I agree. However, there's a difference between a commission proposed text amendment and an application received by a member of the public. We can we we can always receive applications from the public. No, we can receive it, but if we decide if we receive it, we've got to decide on it. Sure. But I you can't rationally say I'm sorry, we're not. We can't make any decisions while we're doing the rewrite. I mean, we haven't put a moratorum on applications. I know. I just wanted to pull that thread. So, that makes

But you can be honest with her. You can say, "Look, your timing is not great. Would you mind coming back in six months when we've adopted the you you can certainly as a matter of honesty, you can say, "Look, we're really busy with the re rig rewrite right now. This is not a great time for you to come in." That's a fair thing for you to say, but you can't stop her from filing the application. Anybody can come in and file an application for any change on any stop her from filing it. I wasn't sure the flip of that what what we how it does impact what we are and are not able to do. shouldn't do as well.

Rank changes are always a legislative decision. You have the highest possible level of discretion. And again, if you want to tell her, look, the optics of doing this for you right now are not great. Would you mind waiting a few months, you're perfectly free to tell her that. There's nothing wrong with telling her that. Um, but it's still filed. Yeah. But legally, if she comes in the next day and says, "Tough luck. Here's my application." You're kind of at that point stuck dealing with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Um now mind you, you can still turn it down for no reason at all. I mean ultimately you have complete control over your rigs. If you want to just say screw you lady, no reg change. That's okay. So it's sort of in her interest to play along with whatever timeline you have for her. But I can't tell her no application. We're busy. We don't have any defined time frame when that is actually going to be a completed. Well, that's my concern. It's I wouldn't be inclined to say, "Well, we're in the process doing the rewrite because there's so many unknowns. We have a plan, you know, but we all know what happens." And I think she probably has the lease opportunity that Correct. Go away,

right? And she might be looking in at other properties in other towns. Well, I'm sure she is. We can't match them up. I mean, unfortunately, that's right. And if there's no narrower scope approach Yeah. Then well again the narrower scope is probably to define what she does sufficiently tightly that you're not going to get broad categories of people trying to fit through that the keyhole and that's where Francisco and again that's probably where we can work with gongs on saying if we're looking at doing this do you have language where other towns have done this and what does that look like even her own legal counsel has that ability yeah I'm not sure she has legal counsel If she does if she Yeah, correct.

But yeah, I mean ultimately again it has to be I mean the whole thing of 82 under general statutes is it must be uniform across all you know across the zone. So we can't limit it in size to this particular location but we can limit it in definition that we narrow the scope of what fits through that hole to be relatively small so not everybody can get through it. Have a meeting Wednesday, don't we? Do we have a meeting Wednesday with him? Francisco, uh, we have a meeting. Yeah. That Yes. after tomorrow. Yes. So, we can probably ask him that. Yeah, we can.

And then we can report back on what he says if we can get something back at the special meeting. Yeah. How's that sound? Sure. That'd be amazing. Um, so we can certainly talk to Gomes about it on Wednesday. Okay. So Kevin Fox Wednesday that doesn't I mean are we so I guess yes we'll happy we can listen we'd be happy to listen to her. Okay I think is that is that Mary room right here? Yeah just be just be upfront with what we're up against. Yeah just but that's exactly the case.

Oh yeah I think she's I have not promised her anything. All I'm going to tell her is look, we'll listen to what you got to say and we'll try and figure out what if any interest we have to to address it and accommodate it. Not that matters. Did she indicate whether she want to take the entire building, a part of the building, one room of the building? Is it like No, my understanding is she's taking she she would be interesting in taking if not the entire building, the majority of the building at least. This is again between the combination of the school and the therapy, something that takes up a fair a fair amount of space. Yeah, this is not a one room operation. This is a fairly sizable operation. So when she does the therapy, does that

go into her school or is that a separate I'm going to have you ask question. I I I I don't I don't want to try and tell you too much because I really This is all based on a fivem minute phone call and an email. So okay, I I I don't I don't feel like I can represent her properly. I think that's why we need to get her in here to ask those questions of her. Yeah, she's she's more than I guess we'd like to hear what she has to say, but right now there's, you know, okay, and that's that's fair enough. And again, it maybe you hear you're like, "Oh, no. This isn't what we want at all." So, I mean, that's that's perfectly valid.

But the question is, is it worth her coming in and talking? And that the answer seems to be yes. We'd like to hear from her. That's it. I mean, we're good with that. Yes. All right. Okay. All right. I would suggest you invite uh let Michaela know that that this is going to happen on the chair of the shoring. Yeah, she might want to be here at the next meeting. Just Melissa. I know a bakery is like on everybody's like dream list for some reason. I know one person that wants to do that bakery.

What's that? I I know somebody that wants to take the V. So, I I had an Airbnb guest who wants to open a bakery in the building there and there's already a kitchen that's already approved in there. Hopefully, they're able to make it happen. I thought that would be reassuring for the gateway people because they've been talking about bakeries over there. That's what I'm saying. Yes. Well, my understanding is this woman does not have a lease. She may never have a lease. Correct. You know, it may be that the bakery comes in and that that can go in tomorrow and no one cares and it's fine. So look, again, this is all sort of hypothetical. No, I was just joking because the bakery always shows up and it's like random weird specials.

No, I mean I know when we were talking a couple days ago with the people who just bought the stop and shut the uh Big Y Big Y Center there. Yes. Potentially getting a bakery in there is things to do. So So that did sell, right? So it has been sold the closing. No, no. The closing is supposed to happen the last week of November or the first week of December. So, we'll wait. So, it is not Do you know what's buying it or who's buying it? Is it like a huge corporate company or is it It is a an investment firm out of Fairfield County that owns a bunch of real estate up and down New England pretty much. And Montana. Uh, Big Y in Montana.

And Montana. Gonna sell boots and big hats. That's funny. So yeah, nothing on on the 19 Halls Road Plaza. Any anyone ever come into the discuss anything about that plaza recently? Not recently. Last I've heard of that is about six months ago at this point in time. So I the plaza is not not official yet. It's the the the big Y center. Again, the closing is theoretically theoretically but is that that entire all the way? It's it's 90 that goes all the way down. Yeah. 16 acres bank to post office. The post office owns its own separate. Yeah, the post office is the only post,

right? That's federal land. Excuse me. Yeah. Right. But to the post office line. And for better or worse, most of the stores in there have monthto-month leases. So, that's unfortunate. We'll see what we end up with. See what happens once they pass that. There's no zoning pass legislation. I will say from what we have heard that the pharmacy there is not going to be there for ever. Won't be there won't be there in the spring is what I heard. Yeah. I mean they've been closing up every day

less and less and less Florida. There was pharmacy buildings all you know they don't you know Walgreens as a company does not seem to be doing well and this location does not seem to be doing well. That's unfortunate. So yeah, apparently come February, March, the Walgreens is likely to be going away. So that's too bad for people. I don't use Yeah. So apparently the pharmacy piece of it is already closed on weekends, which is not ideal for I mean, yeah, there's only one particularly if you are a seasonal community like ours and people are here on the weekend and they have emergency need. It's so annoying. I always have to go to a different pharmacy because that place sucks.

Insurance more to come on that. I am sure you probably will be seeing things from them as to things that they're considering doing. Um so it lot lots more to hear on that one. But again, the closing on that is end of this month, first month, the first week of of December if it gets slid out. You know, they can't put in a gas station. They cannot put in a gas station. only they are. What's the change? The baker. What's the place? The coffee place from Oh, Ashon. Ashon. Ashon. Yeah, they're looking at getting Ashelon in there. Oh, okay. It's going to be a disaster. Pharmacy space. No, no. One of those one of the spaces in there. Yeah.

Rumor has it there's a lot of places that won't be there. They just saw the writing on the wall and they're just That's what rumor is. I mean I don't I have no specific all commercial sounds pretty specific change for this town. It it is a lot of change for this. Yes. And again on Wednesday off the coming from my own particular talking about the big way. Yeah. This this is now sort of a Jewish family coming into a town that say we have to meet. We still have the restrictions on the deeds down there. You understand? One of the things one of the things that I heard and we was a

their calling card is to design their they're they're into taking over failing strip malls and their design card is to do a canvas of the town and rebuild to support the town. That's a good I heard that they're not looking to support I95. I mean they they are telling us that their favorite store in that entire center is Berber. So they're looking to sort of get more of those sorts of What about the wine? They want they want to expand the wine. We're on recording stuff.

Grand wine and spirits. Curious. They want Mary Gardner asked about they want to expand the liquor store. Yes. They want to what? Expand the liquor store. Oh yeah, of course. I mean, the liquor is always going to be anywhere. Sorry. I don't need a liquor world. I'm on my 156. Yeah. Oh, like a Okay, let's let's continue so we can go. Are we done? Um, no. Yeah. Commission members review of training hours. Eric, nice job.

Again, I have been having a lot of people sending in their training to me. So, I've been adding that to um the spreadsheet as people have been sending that in. Um theoretically, again, at the end of this year, I have to res give a copy of that spreadsheet to the first select woman. Um at the moment, there's nothing for her to do with it, but I have to report. Would you send it out to us so we just make sure that what we reported you? I'm happy to do that. Just, you know, because I I know I sent you some anyone any of us really down like I think it'll be good if we just well like yep Eric that's what I submitted to you just in case I thought I don't have a chance today to add all the ones you gave me those are still not on the spreadsheet yet added well that's well that's the thing I wanted to make sure my

absolutely your yours should be on there if they're not we'll add them in Michael just sent me a long list this morning and because I was out sick Thursday and Friday I spent all day frantically catching up on things so yours will be added Wednesday post Is my clock reset on the 18th? Yes. Yes. Uh 12:01 a.m. on the 18th. Yeah. So, I haven't until 59 on December 29th. I'd get four more hours in. No, we can count this other what you've already done this year will count towards that that credits there. So, anybody really low or what do we need again? Maybe

you need Okay, theoretically, after you've done your first one over a 2-year period, you need four hours. Of the four hours, one hour has to be on affordable housing and one hour has to be on freedom information. Okay, I will again send the list out. Everyone can see what's on the list and see what they need and go from there. Does the um event you sent out event uh meeting you sent out for the 12th or the 14th 14th is will that count towards training if anyone Yes, it will. Okay. Okay. Yeah. The clear training does the the foyer, right? Yeah. Yeah. Clear clear has foyer built into it if you take that particular Yeah. I went to one of the Did you go to the town base? Yeah.

Yeah. I think that counts too. Yeah. You would say I No, I Well, I didn't this year. I did the I had before but okay but again it's supposed to after you do the first year it's a two-year period thereafter so you know again for people who have been on the commission and previously done their four hours in the first year at that point you get two years be you know after that to to do the next four hour sessions okay so that's where we are with that I mean I know it's like I had to do four year every year when I was working I know I wish I could put some of my security training from my other job into that because it goes into it a lot more depth than the foyer clear training.

Oh, I don't even have to be doing any of it. No, now you tell me this. I'm just kidding. Super powerled. Actually, I did. I found the clear training really helpful. I took notes. Okay. But I really thought I had to do it all. I feel like Mary Joe told me. I probably did. I probably did. It was for a good cause. Yeah. No, it was it was the affordable housing one in particular was very enlightening. Don Poland is a engaging speaker. He's got a lot of He's got a lot of depth of knowledge. Yeah. He might be worth bringing it in as we're going into phase two. That's not That's not a bad idea. I've seen him I've seen his act a couple times at just to level set at the regional housing

because there were some things on it that I was surprised at that I had misconceptions. Only thing I will say about Don Poland is he's had eye surgery. a motion to return. Not yet. He's had eye surgery, so I'm not sure how publicly available he is to be. Okay, let's get it. I agree. All right. What do you have? I'm coming over for like the last macaroni. Nice motion to turn at some point here. Is that not yet? Okay. So, I um I wish Mike Miller was uh here tonight um so that we could thank him for um a job well done with us for five years. Yeah,

he's a great great guy. Um great insight. He he kind of kept us focused every now and then and pulled us back in. So, formally on the record, I'd like to thank him very much for his contribution to the commission. Going to miss him. Me, too. Um, however, that said, I would like to welcome a little bit prematurely, but I would like to welcome U. Mr. Filliano as a full-time member. Um, congratulations, sir, once again. Look forward to working with you. Um, great credentials that you're bringing to the commission as well. Um, went to Jane. What's that?

James reelection. Yeah. And you're I'm sorry. That's right. Oh, that's right. First term doesn't even start for another year. That's right. You have to like six more years. It's like running for the last time you were in this this role. The last time it could have been your last meeting. Yeah. The last. But you see, I know that I get a certificate at year 50. So, and what year is 46? This I'm 46 now. So, Oh, you get a certificate. I'm going to get a certificate. Is there a compens cash compensation or No, the last time for 25 years I got a cake. So I just want you all to know you're putting us on notice. We can start passing the hat.

I think at that point you get a flag in town hall something something a cake you know everybody just has the bench. We'll rename the meeting room the Jane Marsh meeting room. Well at this point she's probably been in the meeting room more than any other person. We have to contribute money, don't we? And and yes, and congratulations. Welcome again to another round. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Um but I would like to just you're going to get this letter tomorrow. Um it'll be sent out by Craig and um it was sent to us to me this evening. Fellow commission members, I would like to congratulate Jane and Mike and wish them the best. Jane's experience is so vital to the commission and Mike brings a broad array of land use knowledge especially with his background chairing affordable housing. It was an honor and privilege working with all of you. We all do this because we love our town. Olime is very fortunate to have such a solid group of citizens on zoning to work on the rewrite. And then he said a few things about me and he says my best wishes for all of you. Mike. So, I think this will be going out. Craig will send it out tomorrow.

Very nice. Just wanted you guys to know that he'll invite us to this wedding. Wait, what? He just jumped out a plane this weekend. Again this weekend? Yeah, he's down to Europe. You know, he jumped out. Yeah, Normandy. Normandy? Yeah, cuz his Was it his father or his grandfather? I'm not sure, but I know that he was s his father. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, he was just jumping this weekend again. Father. Yeah. So, um, next meeting is Monday 17th. It'll be here. Eric says it'll be up in the mezzanine conference room. Says right on the agenda. Well, that's what it says right there, too. Yeah, that's right. 6:30.

6:30 to 9. And then our next regular meeting is December 8th, 6:30 here. That being said, thank you everyone. I'll take a motion to adjurnn. So move. So moved. Second by um Denise. All in favor? I 94 everybody. Thanksgiving.