Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

Good evening and welcome to this regular meeting of the planning board of the city of Birmingham, Wednesday, January 28th, 2026. Can we please call the role? Present. Robin Bo here. Jeff here. Costic. Daniel Sharer here. No voice here. Brian Williams present. Duncan Curry here. Miss Timberman.

All right. We are qu uh and uh for the record uh Mr. Curry is uh a voting member tonight. Perfect. Move forward to review and approval of the minutes to the meeting on December 10th of 2025. Mr. Chair. Yeah. Um, and I apologize for not catching this in the prior set, but um, the name of the firm we recommended is misspelled. The second name, it's Lavine. L A V I G ne. Yes. Not L E V I N E. And there's a number of places in the minutes where that's got spelled. Good catch.

Any other comments or corrections on the minutes from December 10th, Mr. B? Not the minutes, but the agenda. The agenda has a mistake address for today or for the Okay. Well, let's finish the minutes of I wasn't sure when to do it. Finish the minutes of last meeting. So, I'll move the approval of the uh minutes of December 10, 2025 is corrected. Support motion. Mr. Chair, support Mr. Williams. Any conversation at the board low? All those in favor? Any opposed?

Motion unanimous. Uh welcome everybody. Um happy new year for those I haven't seen. Uh tonight we've got uh several items on site plan reviews. There will be an opportunity for the public to participate uh at the appropriate times. I will call for public input. If you're present and you wish to speak, come forward to the microphones on either side. If you're at home watching on Zoom, you can use the raise your hand function at the center console and I will call on you. Uh and uh we'll go from there. Uh Mr. Dupi, any changes to the agenda? Uh, outside of Mr. Bole, you had a comment on the agenda.

Uh, just a I think the address for item J number two says it's 325 North Old Woodward District Lots phase 3. That should be somewhere on Eon. I would think so. Yes. And the change is that we did notice that. That is the versions that's on the website now. It just looks like it pulled the old uncorrected one. Okay. For this meeting. So proper notice was given. Oh yeah. Okay. Good. To the right address. Fair fair note. This is just you happen to pull out the old one. Okay. Fair enough. Any other changes to the agenda, Mr. Dew? No. Nope. Fantastic. So you will help us as we get to that item with the correct address if you would please.

Yeah, sure. Sure. Uh let's move forward then. Um, first item, we have a special land use permit and a site plan and design review for 600 North Old Woodward. Hybrid meeting. Um, I'm sorry, forgot to mention it's a hybrid meeting.

Yes, though we don't have any Well, I guess we do. It is a hybrid meeting and that we do have some site plan reviews as well as some study session items as we had agreed upon as a board and at the end of last year. Um, 600 North Old Ward. Now, the special land use permit and the site plan and design review are separate approvals. However, they're so intertwined that we listen to them at once. There will be two different uh conversations and two different motions if anything does move forward. Miss Blitzky, welcome.

Thanks. Um, yep. So, as uh Chair Klein just mentioned, um this is a site plan review and special land use permit application for 600 North Old Woodward for suites 101 and 203. um for a new pizzeria, Old World Pizzeria. And so I'm I'm going to be pretty brief. Uh the planning division views this as a super simple swap out basically of different types of food. Um the reason you're being presented this as a special land use permit application is simply literally because in the O2 zoning district, that's what we require. Um, so typically when you're seeing special land use permit applications, we're usually uh having on premise alcohol consumption. Uh, they are not. So there's no liquor sales for on premise or off-remise consumption. Um, it is simply a mostly takeout pizzeria operation and they're going to have a modest amount of seating. As you can see in the plans, it's four tables with four chairs and then four, you know, seat a bench along the wall that that could give you four seats there. Um, and so, uh, you may or may not know this is the the place of the former Cafe Suo spot. So, Cafe Suko was a, um, also a sitdown uh, basically like a juice bar kind of. They had food there, too. um they had more seating actually inside than this and they also didn't have um liquor consumption and they also operated under a special land use permit um when they when they were there. Um something that's not noted in the plans, but I just kind of anticipate questions about because I did say in the packet

there's no outdoor seats proposed at this time. Uh, you may wonder about the outdoor area that is there currently. Um, I'm sure the applicant can speak to that and they'll correct me if if I'm wrong. My understanding is that's actually uh common to the building. So, we're not expecting that to change as it's been, although I'm sure people will eat pizza there. Um, the other thing I anticipate uh you guys being interested in uh is just about the the trash takeout situation. Um, I asked the applicant and they did say that the lease provides for privileges at the shared dumpster on site in the back of the building. Um, and then other than that, everything else that we normally would cover, they are there are no changes. They're not proposing any changes to the exterior of the building at all at this time. Um and so with that, we are recommending approval with with no qualifications. Uh they meet they meet the standards.

Any questions, Mr. Chair? Um are we do we approve the signage? So I don't I don't remember seeing in this package there, you know, how their signage is going to work.

Yeah. So typically no. Um sometimes there is signage in in when you um get a spin to land use permit application sometimes signage is included and they have the opportunity to get that approved. We I would say 99% of the time whether they get signage approved or not end up doing later signage applications uh administratively and that's the typical way of doing signage. So, like I anticipate when they do propose signage, they're going to have to follow that normal process, which is administrative approval, application, and then permits. And with the special land use permit, do we have any jurisdiction over the interior?

Yes. So long as you base it on those requirements that I can pull up for you in article 7, they have to be based on those. So my my my question that I don't the the only thing I saw showing what the tables would be like potentially was on page 28 which isn't necessarily what they're planning on doing. Um but it uh it struck me that they look a little bit um what's the word? you know, vulnerable to overuse. They didn't look particularly sturdy. So, but I don't know if if that's what they're planning on doing.

They could probably speak a little more about that. Yeah, I didn't uh I didn't ask questions uh or get into that with the applicant. Okay. We can certainly ask them about it when they come up. Any other questions? Miss Blinsky. No. No. Uh the applicant is here. uh if they would like to come forward and perhaps give us a quick rundown of their proposal and uh they heard uh Mr. Shear's question maybe jump into that as well. If you could introduce yourself please and let us I'm Cyrus Garmmo. I'm the applicant for this project here. Wonderful.

So uh to your comment uh this is just a 3D rendering. That's not the tables that we'll be having in there or the chairs. Um it the 3D rendering was difficult to pull up for the actual table. So, it's going to be similar in color, more of a rectangular shape, and um just a sturdy chair on the other side. Well, I guess that's my one concern is I'm I mean, I'm not bothered by what the color is or anything like that. I just want to make sure that they're going to stand up to whatever normal use you would expect out of a absolutely this kind of thing. Yeah. So, okay. What sort of materials will they be? Um metal. Metal table will be metal. I think the chair will be um metal and wood combo. Okay.

I think for the record we do typically see those sort of things. Um but can you explain a little bit about the concept and is this is this a a chain of some sort or Yeah, just kind of help us. If you want I can flip through these slides. I don't know who has access to it, but I put something um little brief together just to kind of show where it started and where we're at. You can go to the actual beginning of it. Um,

there we go. So, Old World Pizzeria is um right now it's a make from scratch pizzeria. There's currently one location in the Sagena area of Michigan. Um, if you go to the next slide, we're teaming up with the chef. We want to bring this concept of um you know make from scratch dough, house recipes, a consistent guest experience and um make it a family-friendly destination for for these foods. And if you go through I think I have some images in there as um we can pass that. I think we already know the existing space um currently as it is. And then the next slide, next slide. There we go. That's the current location which we have revamped. Um, next slide. 20-in whole New York style pies. Um, next slide. You know, real fermented dough. Everything's 72 hours fermented. We try to stick to local Michigan um brands to support the community as well. So, that's kind of the preliminary. Then it leads into the plans which we kind of went over a little bit. Okay.

Any other questions we have? Just a question comment really more um just since you're new to Birmingham with this business. Um so you know I noticed in your uh photos from your your other operation that you have a lot of um signage and your windows and neon and that sort of thing. We have some pretty strict rules about that. So before you buy anything, you might want to check with the planning department um about that. We've had people that are new to us spend a lot of money on window decoration that wasn't permitted. So, we'll definitely stay in communication through the process. Thank

just a quick question about the outdoor space which is quite significant. It's, you know, it's right on the corner there, right beside the um the market when it comes in in May and runs through till October. What plans do you have for that and how much can you do regarding the coal use of the space by other tenants? Yeah, so uh speaking with the landlord, it's a common area for the building. So they plan to just I believe they had like couple chairs and tables out there.

Uh it's I think there were two tops. I believe that that's going to be the same thing over there, but it's not unique to our purpose. So whoever wants to walk by and sit there is free to do so. So that raises the question of who who maintains it, who puts the trash away and keeps it clean. The com the the landlord landlord does a great space. As a resident walking by there a lot, it's a great space.

Um underused to be dead blunt. Um it didn't have um umbrellas, so the tables, you know, in the summer got real hot. So if there's any leverage here, there little opportunity to to encourage the owner to work with him and work with you and other tenants on activating the space, I think would be a good thing. Uh particularly on a Sunday morning, if you could do a breakfast pizza on a Sunday morning, you could retire on that. I'll tell you. I'll uh I'll definitely uh I'll work on that. I'll get on top of that. Thank you. Any other questions for the applicant? All right. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you guys.

Uh to the public, we'll open up for the public. Is there anyone from the public who would care to comment on this particular presentation? Uh if you do, please come forward to either microphone, introduce yourself, and provide your brief comments. If you're online, again, if you wish to use the raise your hand function, I can call on you when when your time has come. That sounded ominous. Good evening,

sir. My name's Rob Kak. I live at 612 Brookside right across the parking lot. So I had a few questions and also a few concerns whether it be for this body or another body of the city. Um background uh we moved in in 2013. Noise has become a huge problem for anybody on Brookside, anybody on Park Street. We're on the corner of Brookside and Park. Um, we understood when we moved in that there was going to be some background noise from Woodward and Old Woodward, but things as and I'm sure you've already heard all these stories about uh I still call it Hunter because I grew up in Birmingham, but you know that it's turned into a racetrack. Any additional noise is a problem for us. It carries right over the parking lot. So with that background and just so you have an understanding the concerns um is there any idea of the hours for this establishment and I don't I didn't I didn't see it in the packet so I apologize if it's there.

Okay. Uh did you have any other comment and then we'll make sure we get them addressed. Yeah please finish up your comments and we'll Okay. So I had that we'll try and address them. So um ours. Yes.

And number one. Number two, uh is there going to be any additional lighting outside? It sounds like not, but I'd like to find that out. Um the third thing is just and you can educate me. This is not my area of law, but um I went through the uh article 7 section 7.36 and it sounds like it's just uh if I may just repetitive the usees consistent with the public health, safety, and welfare of the city. All I see is from the establishment that they've just repeated those words. I don't see anything that's descriptive of that. And as you can tell from where I'm going on this, I am concerned about the welfare, the welfare of the citizens that live right there, the noise and everything else. Traffic, uh, whether or not we're going to have parking lot six used more than it's normally at night. right now when they pick up the trash in any event it's often times at 6:00 in the morning. Did they have to pick up the trash more because of this establishment? Um the prior establishment was not open at night. I I'm pretty sure it closed in the afternoon. So those are those are concerns we have. We live with this every single day. Um a lot worse in the summer. And we're uh again a little more background and then I'll sit down. I grew up at 1800 East Lincoln, Birmingham, Michigan. and I had an MI phone number. That's how old I am. And we've we've owned, you know, five houses in Birmingham. I went to brother Rice, holy name, the whole shot. So, we're longtime citizens. We love it here. And we want to cooperate. We know business is important. But there's got to be a balance between business and what we put up with, if I can call it that, as residential. And again, we hear everything. Um, especially when Jud Hart comes through and cleans out the foliage. So, um, those are my questions and those are my concerns.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Anyone else from the public care to comment? If you're online, you can use the raise your hand function. I see no one standing up. I see no other comments. We'll bring it back to the board. So, Miss Blinsky, just real quickly, I did not see any additional lighting on the outside of the building. Is that your understanding of the site plan as well? Uh, yes. They haven't proposed any additional lighting. So, no changes to the outside is what you're telling me. Not in this proposal. Uh is this I believe your report identified it but this location is within what was referred to as the former parking assessment district. Correct. So therefore no property in this area is required to provide their own parking. Required to provide no parking. Okay. So

hours. Thank you. Uh is the applicant could you come forward and talk to us a little bit about your hours of operation? Uh and having heard the concerns of of a resident and a neighbor. Um, it's been our experience and you've got some other talented people in the room here that know this for sure that it's all about management of the of the facility and making sure that you're there for your neighbors and keeping things clean. And, you know, I heard you talk about the landlord will clean up the outside. Um, frankly, that's not good enough. Your your people will be cleaning up the outside as it relates to your store as far as I'm concerned. Could you talk a bit about your hours and how how you plan to interact with the the neighborhood?

Sure. So, um, we have, uh, prep time, which is not open to when customers can come in. That'll be before the hours of 11:00 a.m. Um, that's all indoors, all contained within the space that we're leasing. Normal business hours would open from 11:00 a.m. till about 10:00 p.m. Okay.

Um, in terms of outside lighting, we're not proposing any outside lights lighting, and we don't forecast to have any outside lighting. Um, outside of parking, um, you know, it's more of a slice shop as you can see. So, we would have a walkable community, but I don't anticipate anything more than what Birmingham already has to offer for a community. um outside of uh for evening hours, you know, you have we're we're anticipating to close on weekdays at 10:00 and we don't serve alcohol, so we're not going to be open till 2 in the morning or things like that. But on probably Fridays and Saturdays, we may be open till midnight. Okay.

But I don't anticipate to have, you know, people outside and things like that. It would be more graband go. And you've only got eight seats inside, correct? Correct. Okay. Thank you. Yep. All right, let's bring it back to the board. Any conversation at a board level? We've heard some concerns from the public, but also heard some answers from staff and from the applicant. Anybody wish to Miss Boyce, I'll make a motion. I guess I'll start with the special land use. Sure.

Uh let's see. Move to adopt the findings of the planning department in the report dated January 28th, 2026 related to the approval criteria outlined in article 7, section 7.36 of the zoning ordinance and recommend that the city commission approve the special land use permit application for 600 North Old Woodward suites 101 and 203 Old World Pizza. Motion, Miss Boyce, do we have a second? Second. Second, Mr. Curry. Conversation at the board level

to the public on the motion for the special land use permit. Any conversation on the motion itself? See no hands going up. So, we'll bring it back to the board. All those in favor? I. Any opposed? Motion unanimous. So, now we need a motion on the final site plan and design review.

I'll do it here. Okay. I will move to adopt the findings of the planning department in the report dated January 28th, 2026 related to the approval criteria outlined in article 7, section 7.27 of the zoning ordinance and recommend that the city commission approve the final site plan and design review application for 600 North Old Woodward suites 101 and 203 Old World Pizzeria. Motion, Miss Boyce, do we have a second? Support. support Mr. Williams conversation at a board level just um just would note that the um city does have a code enforcement department

and if the operation is too noisy or too messy in the back particularly or if there are problems with the trash I'd encourage you to speak both to the op the owner and to the people in the planning department the code enforcement department uh we have a pretty good track record of letting businesses to um you know modify their operations to avoid excessive notice and trash. And I'll just add on it goes to the management of the building as well. I mean you've got neighbors be good to them and they're going to be good to you. Um I can already see that you can have a Brookside coupon that work wonders. So, uh, with that, any, uh, conversation at the public level on the motion for the final site plan? Seeing none, we'll bring it back. All those in favor?

I. Any opposed? Motion unanimous. Good luck to you, sir. All right, let's move forward with our next item, which is an old friend. Uh, district loft phase three, which is somewhere on Eaton Street. 325 325 South Eaton Street. Ah, the address right here. Just be weird, you know. Just be weird. So, thanks. You ready to rock and roll? Please, sir. I'm good. M

so um first and foremost this is a repeat project. We last saw this in almost exactly four years ago in 2020 and 21 where you guys issued a final site plan approval with several conditions six or seven maybe eight all pretty standard conditions. It is still the same new four-story mixeduse building uh retail commercial first floor with a few uh residences and then residential all above. Generally speaking, it seems to me as it's been explained to me the way that I'll explain it to you is as almost as soon as they got that approval during that year, they put the whole thing on ice as as in nothing changed since you last saw it. We combed through there are some new things that we maybe should have spotted or discussed last time or maybe we changed our minds that we've called out here and then some things that have changed that are frankly outside of their control that we need to update as a part of this plan. I'll stop at those sections but just as a general theme know that for the most part everything's the same. The first thing that we need to know about, which was the same as the first go around, there are a couple of units that are um not as detailed as the others, the first floor units and a few on each floor. We need room layout so that we can fully determine the parking ratios, but based on our assumptions, everything works. Um, so it's I don't expect it to be an issue, but it's it'll be an approval condition just like it was in 2021. Dumpster still the same. They're going to use this dumpster here. If you can see my mouse, um that's existing and screened and um works just well for now. So, they're going to continue to use that. There's really no new parking lot as a part of this development, but everything else on the development is screened appropriately. They're going to have all their mechanical units screened, both the rooftop and those on the side. Um as usual, uh they don't quite have their transformer units picked out yet, but

they will. And when they do, we'll expect them to furnish those to us so we can confirm that all the screening is okay. Landscaping. Another thing um that's generally not required on commercial properties uh really anywhere, but especially in the MX, but as usual, it's nice to see uh plentiful landscaping on a site anyways, even though it's not required. We've run through the planting list. There's nothing on prohibited species list. Then as we move forward with the city, our sustainability goals, you might have noticed that we did mention it'd be cool if they transitioned um some or all of it to more native type species um based on the goals of our Birmingham green healthy climate plan. It is a suggestion. I have no sticks. Um I know the applicant does like to work with the city though, so we thought we'd throw it out. The biggest change here, as I alluded to earlier, is the streetscape. The theme here is that the plans as they submitted do show a sidewalk here back in 2021. We were needing to discuss easements and things, public uh access easements. Uh we have since learned that as a part of the eaten road redesign, that whole curb is bumping out five or six feet. So in speaking with engineering, that extra five or six feet allows us to accommodate all the public rightway amenities, sidewalk, green space, trees, lights on our property. I wanted to clarify that for those watching at home. You say bump out. I think it would be important to to state that whether Eaton is uh shrinking, whether the curb is going away from the building. Just help the public understand. I think I know what you mean.

I think it's just a lateral shift to west. If it may shrink a little bit, but it is not a road diet, if you will. Um there will not be bike lanes in that particular section, but the space between the property line for this project and the curb line of Eaton will expand. Will expand. Yes. Thank you. Yep. So, it's not reflect on these plans because as I mentioned, they've been on ice for four years, but it would be nice to reflect that change in these plans so that we're all on the same page with the Eden Road redesign.

All the elements they do show now, which we would expect and fully do, uh that they would continue those. They've got two benches out there, bike racks out there, four trees, which is enough. You'll notice in the department comments that the Department of Public Services would like to work with them on the species, but both ginkos. So, um that all works for us. And we note here that when it comes time to confirm that they uh selected the right streetscape elements, we'll do so in the permit process um like we usually do. And I usually use the word unfortunately when I talk about parking, but unfortunately parking is the most complicated section here. If I may just say after all the calculations you read through all the special MX stuff with the Florida area ratios, uh they're plenty fine. They have 20 more spaces than they need based on the uses they have on site. To give them credit, they've been designing this as a campus ever since they started. They've got a parking structure there. They've accommodated it from the beginning. So, we're not overly surprised that they're still 20 spaces over, but they are. So, all that to say, once we confirm the roof counts, we'll we'll iron out these numbers. We're very confident that they'll be just fine on parking.

Yes, Mr. Williams. Um, who's the applicant? You don't say. Kelly Development. And is that the same as four years ago? Yes. Okay. Yes. Same owners. Yeah. Okay. Same architects even. How about that? Well, I think we had senior the last time. Fair enough. You're improved. So, we do mention here because um maybe you wouldn't be surprised, but a lot of people are surprised that when they try to move a bunch of salons or restaurants in that it blows up the parking requirements. Yeah,

these guys have been around, but it's still worth saying there's only 20 spaces over and you can really mess that up real quick if you start doing restaurants and hair salons. So, publicly, they know that, we know that. We'll we'll we'll make it work. is stop just again for the public when you say they know we know it will make it work. I mean we they don't get to go they don't get to do a use that requires parking they don't have correct that's correct without any variances or right so so nobody should be concerned that we'll make it work means don't worry whatever they do is okay yeah we'll let them go 80 over just for fun no nothing like that that's Mr. Please not about that thank you Mr. Sure.

Thank you. Yes. Um, loading is one thing that I mentioned um, we changed our minds a bit on, I believe, based on 2021. You'll notice that they've got a loading space marked here in the north, uh, sorry, souththeast corner, and then up here by Big Rock. Um, I don't think we noticed in 2021 that there was also one here proposed here

in the parking spaces adjacent to the building. What I'm suggesting to you is what I think we would do well to do is to not require that one in parking spaces. If they use it, they use it. But I think the two that are on site currently that are working just fine that aren't full 24/7 are good enough to provide for this site. I think loading spaces is a broader conversation, but they're a little challenging anyways. and they've got um aside from that those two dedicated spaces, plenty of space on site. So, I'd like to avoid designating a loading area in the parking spaces. Um Mr. We just a quick question. I tend to agree with you. However, for the sake of of making sure that we're we're thorough on this, if if this had come forward as one development, would they be required under the ordinance just to um

I guess what where I'm going with this and is I want to make sure that this board has the the authority under the ordinance to say the two that are there are okay. And if we do, I want to make sure it's noted why we have that authority. And if we don't, I don't want to sit here and have this poor gentleman think he's got a site plan approval when he doesn't. Yes. So, generally speaking, I think I think uses in between 1 and 5,000 square feet just require one. Okay. So, that's why I think that that one got added is because they felt like they needed to add it based on that requirement.

I think there there's enough room in the ordinance. I don't have in front of me so I can't quote it to consider one of those other two as the one for that site. And that's what I'm saying to you publicly and that's what I believe. Um if if we really wanted to, I bet you uh the team would just move it move it back here and call it good. Um and if they need to load there, they will. So um for those reasons, I'm very comfortable keeping the two designated and as they are and that it conforms to the ordinance. Correct. Okay. But I'm happy to talk about it further should anybody else have any questions.

Thank you. Vehicular circulation is another minor update that I wanted to uh provide to you here that I will ask when they come up the applicant to describe a little further. As it is today, they've installed what's called a crash gate somewhere in this area. I would paraphrase it as uh with the influx of traffic from the new restaurant, it's become a little unsafe back there for the residents with a frankly kind of a steady stream of cars coming through there. So they've now added a crash gate which crash gate meaning emergency vehicles can access it and all that stuff. It's just um through traffic could not get through from Villa to Eaton. From what I understand, they would be proposing to keep that crash gate. So that's what I would like and I've mentioned here that you might like to ask them a little bit more about. Um there is no zoning ordinance saying you can't have a crash gate. We are concerned with circulation though and safety. So

yeah Mr. I couldn't find this on the plans. Where are you referring to? So it is not on the plans which is what I mentioned here. Um as I just another thing this this was just thrown on ice. So no updates have been made to it today in this area here with my hand ish right guys somewhere in there is a little bit to the low. I can't see it. Still can't. Oh, it's over here. Oh, right there. Okay. So, it's right before you get to the parking structure. Yeah. Look to your right, Robin. What is that? Right there. Yeah. Yeah.

So, they have a good reason for it um for their own property and they'll they'll let you know why. But the rear of that building, that circulation area is supposed to be for the residents. So, they're encouraging restaurant um patrons to come in this way and then the garage that way um this way. Sorry if you didn't see it right away. Pedestrian circulation and actually that's all staying the same. There's plenty of sidewalks throughout the site and sidewalks between the buildings. This great new little plaza here. Um that's currently just a mix of parking and other hard surface.

No lighting's changing either. Uh, another kind of unique part of our zoning ordinance, if you will, is that we do require minimum illumination levels in parking and through areas of 0.2 foot candles. Their phototric plans show zeros in some areas. So, they're going to have to up their lighting game in those areas. Um, it's a safety thing. Um, that's another carryover from 2021. I did go through some of the departmental reports. um the engineering department being the most uh full they are of course they've they contemplated this being a thing and most of those comments aside from South Eaton from engineering will likely be handled underground with no effect to the site the end result that that being everything else was about the same design review um still brick stone metal concept it's going to match their existing buildings it's a it's a carryover so All very high quality. The glazing all meets the requirements exceeds in some cases and um everything at the ground floor is pedestrian scale like we hope for in the MX district. There is one thing I believe no yes the 12T. We just want to verify that they meet the minimum ceiling heights. With that we do recommend approval again um with six conditions this time based on the discussions we've had today. And I'll kick it back to you. The applicant of course is here and ready to answer any questions. I'll pull up anything you need me to pull up.

Okay. Thanks. Any questions? Uh Mr. Dwi, other than what we've already peppered him with, Mr. Chair, the uh 2021 engineering report had a number of conditions. Were they incorporated in these new plans or are they still, assuming they're still applicable, are they still conditions that will fall under the conform to the requirements of all city departments? It's more so the latter, but they did change a little bit. I want to make sure you know that they changed, but um Melissa felt good about most of them and incorporated them, but the plans have not been changed to reflect it. Okay. See the applicant is here. If you'd like to come forward and introduce yourself and briefly walk us through the project again real quickly.

Okay. Thank you. Good evening. Alex Sroi, Soki Architecture. I'm here also this evening with John Kelly who is the uh owner and builder of the project. Um I just want to emphasize that this is the same team. Uh we've been working on this uh campus for over 20 years actually and this is we're all very excited about this piece because it is really the final piece of the uh the campus to completed here. Um Nick is uh exactly correct that this is essentially the same uh application you saw and approved previously. Um what I'd like to do if it's okay with everyone is just touch on some of the changes that Nick brought up and uh sort of address our our thoughts on those. So, uh really in my mind the biggest change uh is the shift of the curb uh with the eaten road construction. And so the um curb is going to move west five or six feet and we're going to have some additional uh space in front of our building. Uh now that we don't need the um streetscape elements and sidewalk directly up against our building, we plan to use that for more landscaping and green space. So, um, more impervious surface. Um,

more pvious. Pervious, sorry. Yes. Pervious. We're reducing the impervious. There you go.

Um, and then Nick also mentioned the, um, uh, crash gate that was installed um, you know, within the last year or so as a result of Big Rock opening and we were trying to, uh, control traffic through there. Uh we are not proposing that that is maintained as part of this new plan. It's not shown. And we think by the moves we're making in terms of um uh narrowing the service drive in the back and and and uh changing the the orientation of the service drive and with the addition of this building, we can control uh the traffic. Um

great. And so we're we're we're not proposing that's part of of the plan at this time. Good. Um, happy to, you know, I there's obviously the the different departmental comments. Of course, we'll comply with those. Um, happy to talk about some of the plant species. We're open to um those suggestions and of course um thank you for the consideration. Happy to answer any other questions you might have. Mr. Williams, so if you're eliminating the crash gate, what was the reason for it? You had traffic going in there and why do you think it's not going to continue? I mean, you got people showing up at the restaurant and know where the hell they're going. No, it's true. Well, the And it's not mandatory valet. That's true. It's not a mandatory valet.

No, I'm I mean, I guess I I have to say I'm concerned about residents sitting in that area, having a cup of coffee, and have a car come right in on top of them. I mean, that's a safety issue, it seems to me. So, I don't know what steps you're taking to prevent the cars from coming into that space. Uh, I'm gonna have John Kelly answer that who is very familiar with that current operations. Before we do that, can you just clarify because I want to make sure we're all on the same page as the public at home. The there is a vehicular drive between the parking structure and these other three buildings. Correct. Yes. There is a vehicular access drive. Yes.

So, no one is going to be sitting out in the middle of that having coffee. Oh, yeah. Um, somebody but but cars are allowed back there. Correct. Okay. Right now. That's correct. Yeah. And you're not changing that. Correct. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure we were all clear. This is not a pedestrian plaza in the entire area back there. But but the concern is why did you put the crash gate up to begin with? What? Okay. But a good question. You know, I could counter the concern is how did it get up there without anybody talking about traffic implications to villa. So, it's not on their plan. They're not proposing it. I I'm

I'm actually would rather them work with engineering on that to determine if something was needed. Then I just I'm concerned about the safety issue. I I feel I I get you, Mr. Jeffers. Are those U brown things, Alex? Are those uh speed tables? Yeah, they're Well, they're actually uh brick pavers. So So not raised though. Yes, they are. They are raised. That's correct. All right. Oh, good. Good. So you got four of those. So you got Yeah. Okay, that's true. One, two, you know, 25 miles an hour that takes out a Lamborghini's transmission. Yeah, that's a concern. Okay. Did you want to hear more from Mr. Kelly on the operations? Yeah.

Mr. Kelly, if you could come forward, please address the issue of safety in the area, I guess. Mr. Williams, you'd like me to address that right now? Yeah.

Okay. I'm John Kelly. Kelly Billing is actually not the applicant. that the applicant is the entity owner of the building which is uh Birmingham Lofts but I'm happy to answer it. I'd like to give you a little background before I answer the full question. So we have our business there. We manage the property there. A couple of my children actually live there. So safety is very important to me as well. The vehicular traffic that circumnavigates the site right now is actually very minor. The residents in the two buildings have what's very unique in town uh parking underneath the buildings. Is that is that basically access from the east?

It is access directly from the east where Nick is waving his hand. Yeah. The traffic that enters the site and and views the beautiful fountain that we have there is mostly traffic to visit my office and also Oenheimer's guests. Yes. The reason I put up the gate, I refer to it as a green gate, not a crash gate because it's very green.

Uh because um what was two reasons? one was I'm in a neverending uh evolution of controlling the delivery trucks

of Amazon and GrubHub and everything else. And the second was the overwhelming success that Big Rock is enjoying and people navigating themselves to Big Rock. We don't have any difficulties with speed because anybody uh in their right mind who enters the campus understands it's a very low uh uh passage campus. There's pedestrian walkways. There's a via between the two buildings. We have lots of walking people. It's ciruitous, you know. So, so there's no speed, but we wanted to control access. The first was the delivery trucks not exiting to impede the business and the second was uh people trying to find big rock. Okay. So we feel that's the reason in the background we feel with this design and and Mr. Jafaris. There's uh correctly indicated what I don't like to call rumble strips, but traffic slow strips. That'll help. Uh, frankly, if I could get rid of the road, I would, but I need it for fire access. So, we have to have the So, we've throttled it around with with Alex's, you know, beautiful design and the rumble strips and the access to the garage. We feel we can manage your concern and my concern.

Okay. Mr. Chair, so I guess I'd like you to take a couple steps back and help me understand the site better than I understand it now. So you have a 262 space deck. The residents come in off Villa on the east. Who's using the deck? The restaurant. the commercial uses and the new residents of the new building. Okay. And they drive, pardon me, they all of those three groups drive into the deck where it's no clear.

The restaurant, although is not mandated for valet, the valet are the only ones allowed to use the deck. Currently we have uh South Park managed out front. The new residence in the new apartment building that we hope to build where the reserve is will have passes to enter the dock. But where this is what I'm the entrance to the deck will not change. Well, I mean where is it? Okay. Where is it? That's what I'm trying to get across.

Right there. If you pull up the new plan, I can show you next pull up the new plan. Okay. So, they'll they will be coming in off e well presumably off Eden. They'll they'll largely be coming in off of Eden. And so, they'll come in and lost my orientation, but they'll go kind of in front of in back, whatever you call it, of the new building to get access. Yeah. Yes. Correct. They're going to come in off of Eaton and move very slowly because it's a very tight area. They're going to turn very slowly and they're going to go into the parking garage, right?

Okay. And then they come out just a little bit toward the railroad tracks there. No, in and out. It's the same the same place. Okay. Same place. Um it's about 5 miles an hour. And there um let's see there's signage for the confuse that takes them directly out to uh Eaton or are they free to kind of wander through around that fountain?

Well, good question. They're free to turn out of the garage as this plan indicates left or right, but left is a lot more difficult than right. And if you think about the uses, the commercial use folks will be leaving as the bar patrons and the restaurant patrons are arriving. So there's a there's an offset, but our expectation of the human behavior of the traffic will be that they will leave this way.

Yeah. I I can only tell you that as a very occasional I've been to the restaurant once, I found parking extremely confusing and I felt like I was forced to use the valet. Now, I'm not complaining necessarily. I'm just telling you that, you know, as a firsttime person coming in and I assume if I was coming in to see the commercial businesses, I'd have the same confusion. So, I found it confusing. I'm not sure that it's anything we have uh to fix, but you may want to think about that. Thank you,

Mr. Bo. Um uh comment um a praise and then a couple of questions. I love the graphic you've put together, Alex. It's fantastic. Gives information and in front of me is the plan and the numbers. But in there there are a couple of numbers that threw me for a loop. Phase three building 50 units total 47 one building units times 1500 square ft suggests that suggests to the reader that we are building units. You're building 47 units of 1500 square ft. In reality, you're you've brought to bear on us 47 units which are very much smaller because what you've done is you've incorporated the circulation, the the passages, storage space and the like. So the reader the reader is thinking that we're getting 1500 square foot units. The units I don't know what the average is but a lot of them are 69200. Yeah. Yeah. Is the typical unit, one bedroom.

So, yeah, I'm not being overly clear. I'm just saying it it's a little bit confusing to read it. Can you point us to where you're reading, please? Yeah. Okay. So, we're on the right. Right there. Phase 3 building equals 50 units total. Colon 47 one-bedroom units times 1500 square ft equals 70,500 square ft. That ain't right. You know what? Um, truthfully, it must have been that that's a good point. It must have been a carryover. Yeah. Um, the units are smaller. Okay. But anyway, that was simply a pre a prelude to a conversation that I want to make. You said that nothing's changed in four years. Correct.

Uh, I'd suggest that the housing market has changed in four years. And that's what I wanted to talk about. This is your building and it's fantastic. And I love the area. I love walking around the back there. People look at me, what are you doing here? But I'm looking around cuz it's so such a nice area. But these are small units. 692 ft, gentlemen, is real small.

Could you explain to us, John, why why you've gone in that direction and why you're offering really just these single units? They're almost like a studio almost, but you have a separate bedroom, but there's only three two-bedroom units in the whole block. That's the best question of the year. It's only been 28 days, Robin. Don't get excited. Bars low. Wow. Great business question. Great insightful business question.

Uh, and here's the answer. Um, we studied the market beforehand. We've studied the market since. We want to deliver to the market affordable. Now, let's not run with that concept. It's Birmingham and you require such as it is. Uh we have two examples that we've built before. One that's been sold as condos, but the Eden building next door is 1,500 and 2200 ft, which is probably where those numbers came from.

And those units um are lovely. I built them and they're wonderfully designed and they're full all the time. Um, and they cost five, six, seven, eight, and $10,000 a month to rent. So, my young children have no opportunity to exercise that. My friends, young children, the people that, you know, graduate and work in their early jobs have no hope of of of renting those or being in town. So, this is the answer to that question.

And the second part of that's the answer to that formula. And the second part of that is is we think that demand is still available to be serviced. Follow up again. These are for sale. No, no, no. This is for rent. These are rentals. Oh, these are rentals. These are rentals. I thought they were condo. Oh, I'm sorry. No, sir. Rentals. Take all my questions back. Apologies. Big apologies. and nearly had a heart attack over here as we've spent the last 87 years on the master plan talking about affordable housing small units and here Mr. boil is let's say why are you giving us small units about to throw my water cup at you too I you totally threw me for a loop with that cuz I thought

you handled it well thank you I you're not the only one that's been thrown for a loop I was I I have struggled with this for the most of the day stating at these plans and driving around and I think you were doing things in Costa Rica we don't know about you couldn't sell these sir let's not sell no frankly good you It's it's built it's designed that's exactly what we want. It's designed

I mean you know let's be honest with each other right it's designed in a manner that you really couldn't convert it. I mean you you'd have to go through some pain to convert it whereas the other two buildings that we designed again masterfully done were readily convertible are readily convertible for sale twobedroom two bath 1500 ft and that's what we've done. Yeah. Truth. Yeah. So, are you happy with that answer?

Yeah. I I'm much happier now that I learned that there can I take one minute of uh of of your time. So, I did a little bit of research and I The question was, how many units below 800 square feet have been sold in Birmingham in the past year and a half? 14, believe it or not. 14. Some of them were tiny houses, but mainly it's uh Birmingham Place on on on Woodward. So, I I I defeated myself earlier on this morning when I realized actually there are small units in Birmingham that are available for sale. So, so that's why I built up this question because I thought, "Oh my god, they're going to bring 40 how many? 47 700 square foot units to the market, but you're not. You're renting them." So, I I I back off. Thank you for that.

And and frankly, you know, because of the size, the location, the amenity, and the and the rental rate that we'll be able to provide to the public, we think we're going to knock it out of the park. Cool. I do. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions for the applicant? No. No. I'll just say that that was an excellent answer and it's exactly what I wanted to hear. This is what this this board has been working on for years is to try and find not everything. try and find the appropriate places for exactly this type of product. We think this place you're gonna go gang busters as far as I'm concerned and we've got property in the triangle district that you start looking at. Well, but that's another discussion. Thank you.

Well, I know because we helped start that. Thank you. Um to the public, is there anyone from the public that would care to comment on um the proposal? I'm not the public. I'm an intern, but I just wanted to know what you anticipate the wrap being, you know. We'll we'll have to get to that when we get when we get ready to market them. It's a little early for that. Um, you know, we're watching commodities go up and down, so we think we're timing the construction at the right at the right place. But we got to as you get close it's about nine months out then you zero in on that because that's

hurry up because that building that's proposed for woodwork if you studied the area you know will be on the more affordable side of things and Victor did is doing that. All right. Anyone else from the public here to comment? Is anyone on Zoom? You can use the raise your hand functions. I don't see any hands going up. All right. We'll bring it back to the board. um board. I think we've had a kind of a conversation during the questions. So, I don't know if anybody has anything else they'd wish to add, concerns they wish to express, motions they wish to make. Miss Boyce, she beat you, too. I beat you too at tight, Ryan. Okay. It's all right. Or Dan

taking over.

Um All right. Here we go. I will move to adopt the findings of the planning department in the report dated January 28th, 2026 related to the approval criteria outlined in article 7, section 7.27 of the zoning ordinance and approve the final site plan and design review application for 325 South Eaton Street subject to the following conditions. uh one that the applicant must work with the city to update their plans based on the new proposed design of Eaten Road and adjust their plans if necessary. Two that the applicant must submit complete floor plans indicating the number of bedrooms for all units in order to verify the minimum lot area per unit requirement is met. Three, the applicant must submit a revised phototric plan indicating proper illuminance illuminance levels for the circulation area and connecting the phase 3 building to the parking structure. Four, the applicant must indicate the first floor height of 12 ft measured from the finished floor to finished ceiling and submitted building plans. Five, the applicant must provide dimensions of the electronic transformers to verify that they are properly screened. And six, the applicant must comply with the requests of all city departments.

Motion, Miss Boyce, do we have a second support? Support, Mr. Chair. Conversation at the board to the public one last time. Anybody from the public care to comment on the motion? Comment on the motion to approve? I see no hands going up. We'll bring it back to the board. All those in favor? I. Any opposed? Motion unanimous. Congratulations. Good uh good luck to you. We hope to see you in the ground soon. Thank you.

Four years later. All right. Um get it built. Let's move forward. Um study session. Did you have any updates for us on the zoning ordinance project? Mr. Dupi, only the things you all already know that the city commission voted unanimous unanimously to select Hy Lavine to enter into the contract. The things that have happened that was on the 12th of January. We're um just getting all the contracts and legal stuff sorted out. They just this week got a copy of their contract which they needed to start their processes. So, we'll know very quickly when and what we're starting on. So,

I know we've got a meeting coming up in February. We're not going to rush it, but that would be the target should we be ready. Other than that, moving forward, we'll be a pretty regular agenda. Okay.

I'd just like to quickly say, you know, I was recused for this process. I wasn't just off, you know, vacationing. I was recused. However, um everything that I've I've looked into and saw how you handle it, Mr. uh Mr. Vice Chair, Mr. Williams did an excellent job. Uh Mr. Dewe and Leah's staff, everybody fantastic job in this whole process and the board. I think you did an excellent job in cutting to the to the to the quick here and putting together a a great selection. So, I I give you all a lot of credit for that. Um 70 at the commission on something we recommend is not always the case when it comes to consultants. So, uh well done. Um and I would just simply say, as I've said to you, Mr. Dwee, uh let's get this right. you know, the public will certainly have rightful concerns about moving forward on such a big project. So, let's make sure we get our ducks in a row that we're starting off on the right foot, right communication, that we're we're being open and transparent and not rushing this just to say we got it started on, you know, on February X, what have you.

Y Mr. Williams.

Yeah. I I think uh I simply say from our standpoint that the best part of the process I thought was that all of the planning board members got to express their views really all the way through and and I called on people to express their views. I I didn't nobody got a nobody got a pass uh because it was that important. Secondly, I I I think that one of the key features of Husale Lavine is the public participation aspect. That was important to the commission. Uh it certainly is important to us. It was important to the city. And the one thing I would say is that I asked Nick and he delivered and that is to get the city administration to put their input into the selection process and he did. And so we're in sync starting. I think the biggest challenge to me going forward is how do you get the public engaged in a zoning change? I mean it's it we have a hard enough time on a lot of issues and that is potentially to a lot of people pretty boring stuff even though there until until they want to build something then it's not so boring and I think Janelle understands better than any of us frankly uh the importance of clarity of language and uh in in dealing with it. So that'll be our challenge. getting the public involved. I think they're pretty ambitious. Jose Olivine is pretty ambitious in this, but it's going to require us to really dig in. That's the most and to me that's the most important thing.

Yeah. Yep. All right. Good job. Let's move forward. You had a pre-application discussion. I do not see an applicant, but um which is a little awkward. Um, and it's going to be your appetite whether or not you want to provide me the feedback and I just relay it, which I'm pretty comfortable doing or if you'd rather wait. Um, I can ask them to come back next time. Feedback. I mean, I' I've got feedback. If you're prepared, I'm prepared. So, let's do the damn thing. Um, but let's at least talk about we maybe don't have to go soup to nuts, but we can. Yeah. Yeah. Go.

Yeah. Great. And this is recorded, so I can share this with them. Uh, no problem. It's simple. Uh, TUDA was moved forward by the city commission in October, technically November, to pursue a beastro license. You remember them back August or so? I think I said they wanted to be in the streets in front of They heard loud and clear from the commission that they also think the platform is not happening. Correct. So, um, they're cranking it up. They're going to plan to bump the storefront back to provide their outdoor dining. Now, they did also add a little bit of two two tubs out on the sidewalk as well, which I already relayed to them that that's going to be a challenge.

I think the the only reason they want that out there is is Philip, the owner of TUDA, just wants that visibility. So, he thinks being out in the sidewalk, but I I've relate to them that that's going to be the challenging part. Everything else, technically speaking, looks pretty good. So before they cool dive take the deep dive and submit the $4,000 love app and come here for their reviews, they just wanted some feedback from you based on um the plans they submitted here which are quite good, quite detailed. What you thought, any concerns, um any red flags, green flags, two, you know, not all bad and and that's that. Fantastic. All right, who wants to start? We'll start here when Miss Boyce moved out.

All right, I have a few notes. First of all, really cool. I think they came up with a great plan. Sweet. Like it. Um I personally have no concerns with um them having some dining on the sidewalk. We I know we don't always agree on this here, but um but since I went there first, there are a couple things that I noticed in the section drawing, if you want to pull that up, that were not well described. I don't know what they are exactly. And uh they'll probably need to sorry let me just find it here. Where'd it go? Furnishing zone. Um they're asking

the first thing is I'll start from the street moving forward. Are you on page 72? Is that what you mean by section drawings? 72. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Like the Yeah. On the top of that page. Yeah. Top right. So, make sure we know what this uh this uh sorry, what's this thing called? This little like canopy thing is that Yes.

is like a folding umbrella thing presumably. That is how do they call it? A folding canopy. It's it's called out as you see it on the street right there. Just let's make sure we know what that is. Um Oh, it's like a butterfly canopy like Elie's. Yeah, I think so. But it looks real little. It's retractable or it comes out. So, anyway, just I mean, you know, as far as Okay. What it is and how low it is and how far it spans. Okay. So, you want to see it? What are you? No, please go ahead. I apologize.

Okay. Um, okay. Then the next thing I want to point out in the section is there is oh this one here the section on the left these new sliding safety glass panels potentially. You can see them in plan as well. And they're from the from the round four tops in the sort of Mhm. um corridor, I guess.

So, what are these? How are these working? Uh are they they can't possibly be motion activated or anything like that? They're going to be chairs right up against them. What are they? What's the plan?

Okay. Um, add to this then back to the section again. There appear to be some weather protection recessed blinds that come down, which I'm pretty sure I'm not going to like because I think what they'll do is they come down and they close the storefront and it's an an opaque storefront. I mean, these these tables are already covered. They're underneath the store. There's no I mean unless you get a driving rain that's blowing in sideways. I mean when and I don't expect patrons will be out there in that. I'm with you 100% on that first.

Yeah. So let's lose those because all that's going to do is just block them off from the street. Agree. Okay. I just have a couple more. Um, I'm concerned about the movable planters that are proposed to rest on the new stone cap wall that kind of arches around. You can see it in plan best, I think. Yeah. These here. Yeah. And I think it looks cool, but I think they need a more fixed solution because we know any movable planters end up being moved. And so, somebody's going to back up their chair into that rosemary. Maybe it's going to be on the ground or I don't know or you know just something like that. So are you afraid of them fall knocking off and falling onto the sidewalk? I am.

Okay. I'm afraid of that. And and then even if they don't fall off and get broken, they often get moved around and displaced and they don't look like they did when they were put in front of us. Dies and they take it out. I love the greenery. It looks cool, you know, but just let's How are they going to be stuck? Concept is cool. Yeah, the herb concept super cool. Well, how are they going to how are they going to be there? Um Okay.

And um Okay. And then the dining the the the three four tops and the three top that are on the left and right in the new proposed within the building. Um it's really packed in here. So, um I'm not the server, so I guess I don't care so much. But what I want to be sure doesn't happen because There's a couple restaurants around here that happens at all the time is the servers end up serving from the sidewalk. Yep.

And because they can't get through these tight tables either. So they walk through and around and then they're blocking the sidewalks and then you can't get through if you're just walking down the sidewalk. So it just becomes really congested. So I I think I'm not going to design it for them, but I think maybe those three tops need to go so that they can spread out the three four tops more appropriately or something. I agree with you 100%. Okay. So um that's all those are my things that I noticed that I think we need a little more explanation. Um fantastic. That was a good list. Okay. Thank you,

Mr. Bole. Quick question. Uh you Nick, did they explain why they wanted the sidewalk tables? There are so few of them. What I mean they've they're adding they've got a lot of space. Space is not their issue. Yeah. What are they is this to advertise to sort of promote what they've got? And I actually think it maybe takes away from this wonderful idea they've got for building a sort of a indooroutdoor lobby with tables which I think is super cool. But I I I don't see the purpose on the on the sidewalk.

It is just visibility. He he thinks that and that was part of the reason why he wanted the platform is just to draw eyes and draw attention to the activity over there which he feels he also wants coming from the sidewalk. And that's my version, my retelling of what I've been told. So Okay. Okay, please feel free to ask him if if it should come. Fair enough. Just turn it. Anything else? Read it. Go ahead. So, I'll jump in. Uh I think Miss Boyce had some great points. Um I don't understand the need or nor do I really want those uh safety walls. Uh and there's certainly not going to be be any curtains or or eyes and glass or anything like that.

If they're having outdoor seating, this is outdoor seating. And they've got the benefit of it's got a roof. Yeah, just like Dick Oda's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. I love it. Her other points are very well taken. I think they should be looked at with the exception of the the two tops or I guess this plan shows four tops, whatever. The tables on the actual street have got to go. She's so

This is precisely what I fought and fought and thought about when we were doing outdoor dining. There's a 5-ft space and this boys picked up on it. You're going to have a waiter leaning over those herbs into the three top they can't get to and another waiter in the sidewalk leaning over to those two tops to serve them. And someone with a a wheelchair or someone pushing a stroller or just an old person like me walking down the street is going to have nowhere to go. It's only a 5t space. So no, they don't get them. As far as I'm concerned, the rest of the project is super cool.

We didn't we don't want them in the furnishing zone, period. We don't want them on both sides like this constricting things the way they are. So I just to me that's an absolute dead stop not voting for personal. That's just my personal take. Okay. Yeah. Everything else I love about it notwithstanding those couple comments that I agree with Miss Poison on. Great. Any other comments over Mr. Chair? Yeah. I mean, I I echo I'm very troubled by the sidewalk tables. And I just point out that if I'm reading this right, there's a canvas awning that stretches half of the five foot. So, by the time you add the visual restriction of the awning, Yep. which was a problem we had in North Old Woodward,

right? And you have this. And it also looks like there's no retention on the inside of the the two tops. So, they're going to move into the sidewalk. Uh, it it's just for me I I cannot imagine, you know, anything that would any change that would cause me to say that's okay. Yeah. Mr. Jefferson.

Um, along with weighing in on a couple different things. Um, to me, I've never, if I had to add up all the time I've had to wait for a waiter or, you know, got caught in a traffic jam behind somebody at townhouse who had to go from the kitchen to going around to deliver 100% of their food. It it it's not a big deal. So, those don't bother me. That's why I live here. I I kind of like it when you get a little bit, you know, and you kind of you get to see people. Oh, you know, somebody slows down for a second or whatever. It's not a big deal. We don't have a problem with that. I mean, if we're discussing that at that level, then that's pretty good, right? That's pretty minor stuff. So, personally, if they if they think that's important to them, I think it's so little. Um I I don't have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with having the tables in there if they served over to the side. You know, when you try to we try to legislate this to death sometimes, like on the these loading loading docks, almost every single restaurant uses the center lane no matter what we do. So, you know, we can try to do it, but I I think it would work fine and uh if it helps them. So, anyway, but I do agree. We got to really be careful on anything that comes down those eight tables. are covered. They're outside. They got some defined areas, but there's nothing that comes down. And I thought we had when we did the outdoor dining, we had something with wind brakes and heights and all that, right? So, anyhow, yeah, I would I that's don't even get on the slope to make it slippery.

Yep. For what's worth, the city commission uh I think generally is uncomfortable with the sidewalk seats as well. Uh they didn't see this though as an important caveat, but it sounds like frankly you guys are pretty split. So um they they'll they'll come with what they think they want and need and then we'll talk about it. Yeah. This is just for feedback, right? Right. Y uh anyone from the public care to comment? If you're from the public and wish to comment, if you're at home, you use the raise your hand function. Anybody that was not left, we will bring it back to the board.

All right. I think you you've heard some opinions. Yep, that was helpful. All right. Um, moving on. Project updates list is getting smaller which I suppose is good. There any questions? Um so we need to change in the uh suggested agenda if we're going to have two study sessions in February when we get to it. Yeah. So before that I see something on here. Meeting times and new agenda software.

Yes. I need to have a quick conversation with you all about two things. First, meeting times, which I think is just a simple question. You may know that the city commission moved to bump their meeting times up to 7. They just felt like they were getting a little late and they thought that little shift might help. Um, but they're going to like midnight a lot, right? Not anymore, but definitely definitely. But they go much later than us.

Yes. Typically, yes. Uh, I thought it might be worthwhile cuz just generally speaking, way up here, consistent meeting times with the city sounds better than 7:30 here, 7:15 there. Any interest at all about shifting to seven. Not going to hold you to anything. Or maybe I'll pose the question tonight and you think about it. I wouldn't change it until next year. Anyways, the print the printed calendars are printed. It's not going to change till January 2027. I just wanted to ask you while I was thinking about it, uh, it just feels good. But I I'd like to try to line up all my boards at the same time if possible. Doesn't matter to me. If there was any big heartache, I would just abandon it. But I don't care. I don't care.

You care? I don't care. I don't care. Half of us have been coming for like 20 years at 7:30 though, so expect I know this is going to be difficult. Half an hour late every meeting. You know, in all seriousness, as we just one devil's advocate question as we we move forward, uh Janelle, you just raised a point. Um many of us have been on this board 15 20 more years. Why you're looking at me? I count myself. I've been here 15. So, um 22 22.

I I don't mean to to, you know, to be overly uh looking ahead. However, there's going to be a time in the next couple of years here where there's going to be some turnover. Um, some of which will potentially require, you know, what we have, we must have a building owner, we must have an architect, we must have an engineer, I think, what have you. Is moving this to 7:00 going to make it more difficult for professionals who may wish to to volunteer? I can tell you that if I was in the thick of working, Yeah. Seven o'clock would have given me pause about actually getting here, seeing my family, having some food, and every minute counts. I don't know. Um, so I just I throw that out. I I We started We were downtown.

Yeah. Good. Good. I was still downtown. All fair. It was just a question. Something to think about. I don't know. If we if we have time, we can consider it. But I just was in Wayne. Lots of time. Yeah, I was downtown as well. Okay. Okay. Good. Good feedback.

Yeah. Now the new agenda software the city commission has fully transitioned. It's a civic plus program. They build we buil they build all their agendas in this new software generate all the packets in this new software. There will be there's a public side there's a internal side and there will be a board and committee side. We're all going to have to transition at some point. I wanted to tell you that I plan to do that by June. We're not being forced to rush it and I don't plan to force you to rush it. It'll be a little bit of a change at first, but once you get used to it, so easy. The idea is to we already go digital, but the uh city commission used to have a lot of printed packets. A lot of the comments were about note takingaking. This program has great note takingaking. you can like well you know some of us

so I wanted to warn you that that's going to be coming I'll we'll prep we'll prep accordingly but does it have a good interface for like I always do mine on a tablet and then write on in Adobe does this to have that kind of capability or is it more of a PCbased or I would expect it to but I don't know that I can answer you with confidence because I haven't tried it might be interesting to give us a little you know presentation or rundown at some point tutorial they can make the clerks Yeah, you know, you've never met the clerks here. So, all right. I'd also, if you're asking us to take notes in there, I'd also be curious a rundown on what that means for open meetings and foil. Is that public? Sure. Notes become public information. You can't write your mean things about me in the margin. No doodles. Dirty pictures.

That's okay. Yeah. So, that's coming. Danger. Nick. Did I lose it? I didn't get an email from you telling us that the agenda was available. That's because I forgot to send it. Got it. Yep. It was a busy Friday and Saturday. I was here Saturday as well. Sure. That was it. That was it on that. Okay. All right. Uh agendas for the upcoming meetings. Uh right now they don't have anything on them uh outside of more updates for the zoning project. Uh Nick, do you think you're going to have any site plans? I do not. And and if I may um put on my forward thinking hat, honestly, right now, if you ask me today, I'd lean cancel February 11th. Okay. It just doesn't feel like enough time. We'd have a week, right?

Yeah. So, it's it's too soon. The second meeting though is site plans, right? It'd be sight plans, but just, you know, we could cancel that, too, and start in March. So, I wouldn't. It just depends on how Well, why don't why don't we do this? Why don't if the board's amendable, why don't we go ahead and make um if you're amendable, a motion that um the February 28th meeting uh 25th 25th 25th, pardon me. Um change the rules of procedure to allow it to be a hybrid meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Great. That that way we've got flexibility. I'll make the motion that February 25th be a hybrid meeting to include both site plan and study session.

Motion, Mr. Williams. Do we have a second? Second. Send him his boys conversation. All those in favor? I. Any opposed? Excellent. I don't I don't see any reason that why we would meet on February 11th. As of right now, I don't either. Me either. And like I said to you, let's let's not just cancel meetings to cancel them. But at the same token, we're we've got nothing to discuss. Let's not waste anybody's time or yeah, you know, rile up the public for no reason. And it's worth mentioning, I forgot to mention the spring has a bunch of holidays through. So the first meeting in March, we actually don't have because it's holy. So So I think I think the second February meeting or the only February meeting, yeah, is we got to get going on the zone.

Yeah, we'll target that. That's in some fashion. And you know, I don't know if they need to fly in for it. Maybe they could participate by Zoom. Yeah, we'll see. Um, so just for record keeping, you're saying March 11th is not a meeting. Oh, I might have I'm getting you guys confused. I apologize. Never mind. That's the historic district commission that's canceled. I'm sorry. I was going to say. Okay. One of those meetings is canceled a little, but March we meet both. Yes. The 11th and the 25th. I don't think we have any. It's April that gets real messy. April is different. Yeah. Okay. April the sunsh. All right. Well, Mr. I think we're going to say we're going to cancel the February 11th meeting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh and then we'll move on from there and make a decision as we move forward. Right. Okay. So, is that official? Yes. If it's canled would be it' be just Could we vote sight plans anyway? Just stay. Did we vote on your motion? I'm losing my memory here. No, we did the motion. You approved it. You voted. All right. Good. My recollection is how do I vote? Uh, anything else? Yes. Although the action list you see in there is still labeled 2025 and all the same. I do need to start getting the 2026 action list together for our annual reporting that's due at the end of March.

I know what we've got going on. The big zoning ordinance project again way up here. I don't need to know which project. Do you intend to ask us to do anything alongside the zoning ordinance work that we're doing? I'm making this up, so this is not what I mean. But do you want to do the Woodward safety and beautifification plan alongside it or anything else or should we just concentrate on the zoning ordinance and maybe the random thing that gets directed to us? Yes. I think we concentrate on zoning. Does the board agree? Yes. Okay. Because there are going to be offshoots to this that we don't anticipate that might require us to kind of get into parking or get into this or get into that and that could be an extra meeting that we just didn't anticipate. So, yes. Just kidding.

No, I'm not going to hear you. We are working on master plan things at other boards. So, it's not like the master plan's just going to gather dust for a year. But that sounds like music to my ears. That's what I was hoping. So, that's what I'll plan and it's just an action list. Things can change, but Okay. What I would suggest is is anything that those other boards are doing master plan related. You know, it would not be a bad idea to keep just this board every now and again up to date on what what they're working on. Not that we have to be involved, but can you can you can you give us February what the essence of the historic plan that was approved? That's a great idea. I'd love to get I'd like to furnish you a copy in general. It's um just getting So we see it finishing touches and that that's a great idea. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Anything else? Nope. Meeting adjourned.