Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay. Like to call the meeting to order, please. Um I'd like to make a motion to approve the uh February 2nd uh meeting minutes. Second. Carolyn seconds. Uh any comments on the meeting minutes? No comments heard. So all in favor to approve say I. I. Okay. Um Oh, Russ. Yes, you should authorize Julie to vote, right? She's an alternate. Julie, you're authorized to vote today.

Thank you. Um uh do we have any general public comments this morning? Anybody from the audience? We'll take specific topics later, but if there's any general comments, uh, co-chair's report, John, do you have any co-chair comments?

Uh, yeah, I have I I have one. We should we should technically note that that comments are only available at public the public hearings. So, if there are any comments on topics that are not public hearings, those should be made now. Right. We don't mean we don't have any comments. So, do you have any comments? You said you said I thought you said other comments would be allowed later. I I said on the topics on the hearings. Yes.

Yeah. But on the hearings, but we have some non-heering topics on the agenda. So, if anybody has comments about the the church sign, for example, I see what you're saying. Those should be made. Those should be made now at the public comment session. Correct. That's right. Not just not just the specific hearings. Yeah. The discussion doesn't mean open. It's it's a committee discussion. Got it. Got it. Still no comment. So I think we can proceed. John.

Yeah. Um, I just wanted to highlight the uh proposed House bill that was coming around u that we sent around House Bill 5508 would change some aspects of the governing statute for the HDC. And uh I think we should uh find out when comments are due and uh hopefully they're due after April and we can discuss these items at an April. Briefly for the for the record, the statute would change the public broadcast requirements um so that they are permanently available on the website. Um, it changes the appeal process so that appeals from uh what CFA applicants regard as adverse decisions no would no longer go to the superior court. They would go to the zoning board of appeals and we'd need to know from another statute what that procedure would involve. Um, the statute would exempt state and town-owned property from the requirements to obtain a C of A and in itstead requires a rather uh it's laid out and detailed, but it requires a specific consultation process, but um the the the HDC would no longer have a final say over town or state property. All these changes, if the bill is approved, would be approved would be

effective on October 1st.

Um, that's all I had. Okay. Uh yeah, I had one one note and that was that we submitted uh to the zoning commission comments at the last uh zoning hearing. They received those. There'll be a phase two uh to the zoning rewrite at which those comments will be taken up by the the zoning board uh at that point in time. Do do we know when phase two is when the meeting is?

I I I I think it was my understanding that they would be taking that up at the next the next meeting, but we should confirm that tonight. It'll be tonight. Yeah,

we should check We could check the agenda. I will be out of town tonight, so I don't know if anybody else could attend. Great. Um, we'll move on to public hearings and um, we're the 9:15 public hearing has been postponed. So, we'll move on to the public hearing 925 100 Lime Street. Um, is there anybody here from the um, Roger Tory Peterson? Would you like to come up? So, we have a C of A uh for your uh for your sign. Would you like to make any comments?

No. No, no. Okay. I don't have any. Um I think this is the second time we've met about this sign, so I think it was more that give making sure that we got the measurements and everything to everybody, right? Um yes. Um I did this this was one of the matters that I checked with the uh u Eric Knap, the zoning enforcement officer about and the question was

whether the sign was con considered a nonconforming use and it is since the sign doesn't didn't change. That does not mean that the fact it's a non-conforming use for zoning purposes means that it's automatically going to be approved by the HDC because the HDC applies its own standards and the the zoning issue.

Go ahead. No. And I just when you're when whenever you're ready, I have a comment on the on the merits. Right. I just want to be clear the of what the zoning issue is. It's the dimension of the sign. Is that correct? That the sign is the zoning requirement is 12 square feet. Now, I think 12 square feet applies to temporary signs. It's a I don't have the zoning rags in front of me, but it's a it's a smaller size sign for signs identifying property than the size of the

the current sign. So, but anyway, from from zoning's perspective, it's no problem because the larger sign was had been there for a long time. I mean, before it was a right RTP sign, it was a B and thistle sign. Right. It's 27 square feet just if if I'm taking this dimension off right here. So I think that's one of the questions. So John, you had another comment that you wanted to make about it. Yeah. the merits.

The the the comment is I I find that although the sign uh is is identical in dimensions to what it's the same sign that had been uh posted on the taller posts, I find that it looks very much different when it's down at the eye level of drivers. And my in my personal opinion, it's uh it's really not compatible with the look of the the the the property. Um I know is it Alicia who's here? I I can't

She's off camera. Um I I believe Alicia, you mentioned that cameras. [laughter] Sorry, John. I'm literally at the table. She's She's at the table, Jess. The camera's turned. No, I I hear the I hear the disembodied voice. [laughter] Yeah. [clears throat] Um, no, I believe Alicia, you said that there were uh plans to have a a different sign.

Yeah. But it it doesn't necessarily mean we'd want to shrink the size. What I will say though is I I agree with you, John. It's much more visible now that it's lower to the ground, right? I think people have commented like, "Oh, we see your sign. We know where to go in now." I thought, "Well, that's a good thing." Um, and it doesn't block any traffic. We asked about that to I don't know who. I can't remember because it's the entrance zone. It's not the exit side. Um, we do plan to change the sign a little bit when we renovate to get one a little more like the old lime in, which I'm assuming is also out of uh I haven't measured that one.

It's the probably the It's huge. It's like the bean thistle sign. That's what this was modeled after was the same size.

I think the old [clears throat] lime sign is smaller. Anyway, you you should check with zoning and look at our sign guidelines about what is a permissible maximum sign um size sign. My question is whether something could be done on the s on the sooner side rather than on the later side to to to modify to come up with a new sign. I mean, I can see about that, but honestly, probably not just because of the expense of it and once we do it because we have to run electrical back out there to make sure that the posts are electrified again because we had that all shut off as it was I said it was a safety issue. Um, and we're going through a rebranding at Ottabon to check our colors. So, it won't be immediate. It will be probably 12 to 18 months, though. the uh if if you're if the another issue is if you're planning to run electricity out there, I assume it's for lighting and and both the HDC and zoning have have uh guidelines or regulations applicable to to lighting.

Correct. And there is lighting already there, but we cut it off because when the sign was falling, we didn't want to put the money into digging up and figuring out where the trench and everything was. Was that up lighting or down lighting? Down. It was on top of the sign. Facing down. But we're I mean, we are a part of Lights Out Connecticut for migratory birds and all the insects and everything. So, we actually don't put a lot of lights on. There's a lot of people. You guys are really dark sky. I know. Yeah, I figured I figured like our lights on on the porch sometimes and it kills people. It's it's a big conversation at the office.

I figured you would be sensitive to it, but there once you start looking at zoning rigs, there are eyes and tees that need to be dotted and crossed. Yes. Can John is it possible to we have a CFA before us. Is it possible to approve a CFA that has a temporary time frame like a like I think well I think we could could do that and and and should do do that again

if if zoning had said this is a a nonconform a change that makes it non-conforming. Uh I'd have trouble approving it. I don't think we should approve things that zoning disallows. But um I I just I just would urge again that that um plans for a replacement beminent be [clears throat]

uh brought in fashioned as as soon as is is reasonably possible. And uh again that we're we're happy to to discuss discuss things ahead of time if if if you get to a point where you have just tentative ideas. Um I have a question. Just a question. Alicia, [clears throat] are you considering when you do a new sign, you said you were interested in making it similar to the O min sign. Are you considering a post and arm instead of the framing that you now have?

I haven't gotten that far. Really, what I meant was like the the look of it, how it's more 3D, it's a little wood. It's it's not going to be a plastic sign, obviously. Uhhuh. This one's metal, but Uhhuh. So, you might consider it. It would be more in keeping with the rest of the signage potent depending district if you could consider that possibility. Yeah, without a doubt. [clears throat] So, um

I our standard our standard length of time for uh granting a CFA is is a a a year, but I I would say we should put in there uh attach a a an understanding that this is not a permanent sign. Yeah, I would I would suggest that that we say that this is a one-year time frame on the approval of the of this sign.

Uh and it requests that um that within that year a new proposed sign be brought before the the commission. Does that sound That sounds fair. Um are there any other comments? Because I can make that motion. Okay. So, are there any are there any comments from the from the audience? You should ask Russ.

Right. Any comments from the the audience? Having heard no comments, I'll make a motion to approve the CFA um as presented for a temporary time period of one year uh with the request that a the new permanent sign um CFA application happen within that one-year period. And could we add because I think it would it would um be consistent with the rest of the HD. Could we add that we would request that they consider a post in arm structure rather than the than the existing structure or is that just understood?

I think we take that up at the time they they present the new C. We have a second. We have a second. Second. All in favor say I. I. I. Motion approves. Ter have a good week. Alicia sign the application because I think this one's not signed. Yeah. Can I use your sign? the one you like.

Great. Thank you. All right. Thanks everybody. Take care. All right. Uh next up is uh 52 Lime Street Military Memorial Markers. Anybody here that wants to speak to the uh markers? Maria. Hi. Oh, she's on. Mary Ellen, she's on the screen. [clears throat] All right. Hi, Mary Ellen. Hi. I'm sorry I couldn't join you in person today. Our schedule drastically changed overnight and so I'm just again always grateful that we have this Zoom option. So, yay. Um, good morning everyone.

Good morning. Um, I'm actually very grateful that your meeting was postponed a week also for timing reasons for this project. So, um, maybe it'll work out today. I have a good feeling. Um, so I think Martha sent you guys, um, all the, um, sort of information. Yep.

Just a little bit. Um, you should have the markers and you should also have some some images um of what the markers would look like on stone. Unfortunately, I never got the chance to really kind of create something for you to look at visually that would um uh that incorporates the actual town hall. Um, I think today was like the first day I drove by the old lime sign and the snow was melted around it. Um, so I I think if you just quickly look down, um, I just kind of want to bring you guys down to the bottom of the page, uh, the last the bottom two pictures with the old lime sign and then the flag pole sign. So, um, or picture rather. So, these are the two sort of areas I think that we would be honing in on for these for these signs. Um, the markers. Um, I wanted to draw your attention to the flag pole and that little plaque that's affixed to it. It's sort of in the center.

Yes. So, our you froze up for you froze up for a minute. So, could you repeat the last uh 20 seconds or so?

Sure. Sorry. I I thought it was in a pretty good spot. Um so yeah, I wanted to draw your attention to that particular sign that's mounted to the flag pole that is just about the size of the markers. Uh just to give you a visual. Um, so our thinking is that, you know, kind of depending on what you guys think, um, is that one, if we wanted to not have it seem redundant, which I know has been, um, one of the issues, I don't know if we could incorporate these two particular signs right into that memorial. They could actually be affixed right to the flag pole. Um, and it would look, I don't know, very symmetrical with what's existing there. So that's just an option. Um, and then, you know, we could also think about the idea of incorporating them elsewhere in that same area, but affixed to a stone if the flag pole option isn't likable. Alternatively, I think what we'd really love to have um is them. If you look at the old line picture, uh the signage, the old line sign picture, that is our site and the Duck River Garden Club site. And if we could have the signs on either side or some some way set up symmetrical and they would be mounted to either granite or stone. Um, I think that's what the border select men decided is they definitely don't like the brick. And I agree, these are just examples of of what they look like. Um, and the stone was mostly favored. Um, so we would we would get we would get uh some examples of of that if um [clears throat] if that's kind of the way we wanted to go with it. So we're those are kind of the two places that we're thinking for these. Um, so you guys have an idea what the the sign size

is based on the flag pole. you can see what they would look like if they were mounted to stone or to a rock. Um, and then if you go to the top, um, you have the specific at the top of the document, you have the specific measurements, um, for each one of them. So, I feel like that's kind of where we're at with them. Um, and I'm happy to answer questions or ideas um, about them.

So, just to help, hang on, John. Just to help so we understand since we don't have a drawing the exact placement. So, I'll take both scenarios. Are you suggesting that in the in the in the flag pole scenario that you would have two plaques above the current plaque that's there or or Yeah. So, it doesn't have to be above. It could be below. I mean, I don't know. Um, I'd have to sort of look at the flag pole a little bit more. It was just a thought. It was just sort of a an idea.

Yeah. And then and then on the the second scenario at the old lime sign, are are you suggesting that there would be one on either side of the old lime sign or maybe you could describe your envision placement relative to that so that we understand your vision. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it would really just I think it would really come down to actually like being out there and and standing there and and and saying, "Okay, this will work. This wouldn't work." um and what looks the best. Right? So, I'm thinking that would they would either they would be um forward of the sign, right? So, you have the post. You can see that post uh like first and foremost and maybe that would be like the center line and there would be a stone on each side or maybe they would be where the blue is and they would just be on the center uh they would be on either side of the sign but like centered if that if that makes any sense. I understand. Right. Yeah. Thank you. Would that would that be Yep.

Go ahead. Would that be within the confines of the garden that's surrounds the OMI sign?

I think that would be the idea. Um, you know, that would be the idea. And again, I think we're happy to brainstorm specifically where they'll go in front of town hall if if they're approved. Like there's definitely wiggle room for placement. It's just a matter again, it's always the ordering. Like if we can just get them ordered knowing they're going to go in front of town hall, we we can come back to you and and say this is specifically where we want to go. This is exactly where they want. Are you good with this or not? If not, we can change it around. Does that help?

Yes, if that helps. I have a question about the size. Your um the photographs that you submitted show the uh flush mounted flush with the ground mounted plaques in two sizes as as far as I can see from the um pictures unless the photographs are a distortion but the gold star the upper one on the photographs that you've given us looks more square and I don't know if the dimensions are the same but but that this is going to be you know sort of large. It's 11 and a4 tall by this would be what? 8 and 8 would be 16. So this is 21. So it would be something like this size if I'm right.

That's a fairly large plaque. And then if you have a cement surround or a granite surround, it enlarges it even more. But maybe I'm off on the on I was trying to figure out. I agree with you. size of the location. They I agree with you. They do look distorted. They look really big. And um so I think the last time I was there, I had a a piece of paper. I don't know if you remembered. It was just a blank piece of paper. It was

that's about the size that they are. Um and and for reference, that sign that's on the flag pole that's mounted to the flag pole, it's just about that size. Well, I I think it's the flag pole sign is 22 by 8. So, the flag pole sign is narrower. In other words, um unless I measured it wrong, but it's something like that. Maybe it's 22 by 10. It's wider than what they're suggesting. But the flag pole, maybe it's wrong. I would want to measure that again. I I would like to measure that again. Yeah. The dimensions of the ex existing flag pole sign.

I didn't specifically measure that uh sign. I basically what I did is I had that paper and that was really just sort of a visual of about what this this sign was about. I think maybe it was 3 in taller roughly, but when we stuck it up to that sign, it was roughly about the same size. It wasn't uh a lot larger. Um so yeah, that's just sort of the reference idea, but I do agree with you. They do look very big when they're on those markers, but they're really not that large.

So, so just to be clear, technical dimension is 11 and a4 by 20. Is that is that's what I'm reading here. Yeah. Is that Yeah. Is that okay? Yeah. And if you So again, like if you took um a legal piece of paper, I guess, and added on a couple inches on each end, it's sort of I think it would be about this size if you you know, just using the pages that I have. Um so it would be it's a little longer, but yeah, longer. So eight and a half and 8 and a half is 17 and this is 21. So it would be 4 in. That's about it. Approximately this size. So we can visualize Yeah. Yeah. Right here in front of us.

Yeah. That's I think that's pretty close. Yeah, I think it is. So, both for the ground placement in the ground. So, I'm not clear if you would want perhaps to consider having them parallel to the existing historic sign if you if you use if you if if that is the the designated location or whether you would want them parallel to the street. Would they be vertical? Because they are quite large even for that side. they would fit.

Yeah, I think um ideally we probably want them in a place where if you were just walking by you'd be able to visually see them and read them without really having to like go over there. Um so uh so on either side of the sign but facing towards the sidewalk. Does that help? So so since yeah since the ground has slope to it, in other words, it's a it's a mound. If you did a if you did the sign on I'm I'm looking at the two concrete examples, which is nice because it's very clean and and simple. If if you place if you place that on the ground which has slope,

I think you would be able to see the the signs. Yeah. With with that angle. Even if they placed perpendicular to the street. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Facing the street. So So you could read them from the sidewalk, which is what I think the intent is. Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. Do the signs come in a small Do the signs come in a smaller dimensions? No, unfortunately. This is the smallest size. Um, and I they're much smaller than the original proposal. So, which was the uh the highway marker. So, this is the smallest that we can get them.

Oh, this is not the same size as the highway marker. No, these are much smaller. Yeah.

And what would the um Marilyn, what would the elevation be? I How would you How are you envisioning? Are you envisioning a granite surround or or a cement surround the way the witness stones have? The witness stones are 4x4 in with a 3-in surround I think. So they the whole entire structure is um is 10 approximately 10 by 10. So significantly smaller. But I am experienced with placing these in the ground and installing them and they have to go on a concrete block and so on. So I just wondered how you would envision that happening and would you use granite?

Um so we don't know yet. We we definitely like the stone. We haven't really gotten that far in our planning yet. Um and I'm just curious, did you were you the one who placed the witness stones by any chance? Yes.

Okay. So those we when we were at this you know, we did see them and and they were they were they were like flush with the ground almost, right? And so, um, like we almost stepped on them [laughter] and I think that the grass was a little tall. So, I don't think they would be like that flush to the ground. Um, I do envision them to have some sort of a a slope to them so that they're not just directly set into the ground because I do think that would look a little strange with the mounting. Um, I think that they would be at an angle where you can read them and see them. And I do think that having them on granite or some sort of a stone, probably not concrete cuz I feel like it's not as as aesthetic, um, with a very minimal frame is kind of what we're looking at. Very simple. Um, because they they draw their own attention with the blue and the gold coloring. Um, so I I I wish that I could tell you exactly what we had planned out, but I think we just sort of got to the point where we know that's kind of where we want to place them. This is sort of the idea. Um, and I I guess that's what we envision. So that's as much as I can tell you.

So Marian, let me ask a question. If Yeah. If it were to be a I agree, not a concrete, but a stone that's about two to four inches in thickness. Okay. And then that and the and the plaque is placed on top of that and then it's on the slope ground that would have vision to the uh to the um sidewalk and uh it's not being covered by plants.

Yeah. and and and then it creates and I'm looking at the image the middle image on the right side and I don't know if that's concrete or stone but it appears more stone than the top image which is clearly concrete the lighter but if it were something like that is that

yeah that's exactly what we're envisioning and I have to be honest with you I'm not very wellversed in like stone own uh like in how this all works. Like we would obviously take the time to have somebody come out and and help us with getting this together, but I don't know um I don't know how to to do this. So, this is very new with the the mounting of the stone. Um but yes, that's ex that's what we would be leaning towards as far as what it would look like is exactly that image. Maybe even if we could shave off a little less. I don't know. Um or even if we could shave off a little less on the bottom. Um you know, we would we would do it

right less around if you will. John, you have comment?

Yeah. Um I'm having trouble picturing the look of stones if they're placed near the old lime sign. that uh setup looks looks very natural to me as it is. Which leads me to believe or suggest or ask whether uh the stone if at that location should be a natural stone. One of one of your pictures had a plaque shown on a natural stone. The other site with the flag pole has granite and it might seem inongruous to have natural stone there. So it could be that the type of stone depends on the on the um on the location.

Yeah, I think um as far as the stone goes, this isn't really something that we've um really hashed out just yet. and only because um we would probably try to find somebody to work with. We we have to look at the pricing of what these cost. Like again, we're paying for it all. Um we're hoping that maybe we can find somebody local who will give us like a discounted price. Um and or even maybe somebody that might donate it. Um and obviously we wouldn't put something there that looks hideous, right? We would want something natural, something that looks nice. It is our site. We take a lot of great pride in what it looks like. So, it would be um I think counterproductive for us to put something there that just didn't sit right. We want it to look great. So, um we just really haven't picked out a specific stone yet. We just haven't gotten that far.

We're open to suggestions though. Like and that's kind of what and that's kind of what I'm saying is that um you know this is sort of what the idea is that piece of stone that you saw like that's kind of what we want it to look like. And so if you can just think okay that's kind of what it's going to be look like kind of look like. Um and then we would come back to you and say what do you think about this stone if we get it approved. Okay great. What do you think about this stone? What do you think about that? Which one do you like better? Which one is more aesthetic to the public? Um and we wouldn't just say we're doing this and that's it. We would definitely come to you and and get your opinions. You know, what do you think? So, it's sort of a work in progress. Yes.

One part of the process is if we approve a CFA, we have to give parameters. So, it that's why we need to kind of have this discussion. We can't leave it so open. We have to we we do have to narrow it down. Now, there's there's a limit to that and we can we can discuss that. Uh Martha had a comment. Yeah, get her hands up. So

I think that uh we're overshooting this a little bit. I think that I applaud the Doug River Garden Pub for saying that they would like to take these two markers. They decreased the size. The biggest point here is that are you willing to work with them on the placement and the design of it? They're just trying really and truly to say that if you will work with them on placement and design later, they just want to get this ordered because it takes four months and that's and if you say no, we're not going to even invite in bite the fact that it could go here on the town hall grounds, then they're going to order the larger ones that for the road and they're going to go somewhere in town that you don't have authority over. That's what the board of select meant. We envision a more natural stone like John did. That was what we said. We did not want the brick. We don't really we hate concrete. We don't think that's appropriate for here, but we thought more of a natural stone sort of more to the um the picture in the middle on the left hand side was what we had thought. We thought more of a 45 degree angle and we thought either the ground garden where the sign is now or perhaps over by the tree here on the grounds because it's on the memorial town side of the memorial side of the building. We didn't get into the specifics. Basically, they're really and truly saying, do you give us permission to buy the signs and we'll work on placement later. If you say you don't want an 11 by20 sign here on the grounds, two of them, we won't she won't order that size. That's really where we are today. I know that a lot of this was given to you, but they don't have those specifics because they've got four months to work on that while the signs are being made. You don't want them here, fine. We'll move on and we'll go to another

place. Well, thank you. I I don't think I think what we're trying to do here is to review the CFA and and and vote on it and just trying to decide what parameters would actually go on a CFA approval that we would vote on. So, right. And so, the parameters would be you can order them, but we that's not that's not our purview of telling somebody if they can order something or not. our perview is to review the CFA that's been submitted and then vote upon the CFA and and that's what we're trying to do. So, but I think there's too many question marks in in what she's been deciding deciding talking about today. There's still too many ifs.

Well, I I don't know. I mean, I I think we the commission hasn't really discussed it yet. We've we've we've heard we've heard from from from you, but I think we should deliberate a bit more here.

Yeah. I I think if you were just to sort of if you wanted the the parameters specifically, I think whatever the minimal margin margin would be to have it mounted to stone, whether that's like 2 in on around like that would just be the addition 2 in to the to the byway marker. So, um, you know, I again, I'm not I don't know how this works specifically, but I'm thinking like 2 in is a pretty reasonable, um, you know, back background. So, plaque would be 13.25 by 22 wide, I think, if you wanted to like get actual measurements. Like that would be the total.

Yeah. Well, it would be a two it would be a two inch. Are you using a 2 inch perimeter? So it would be twice that. It would be 11 + 4 would be 15.25. Correct. If you're wanting a two inch band. Yeah. Two inch band. So two inches all around. Right. Right. Right. Right. So that would be that would be a 15.25 by um 24 total. and and recognizing that the the sign is is the 11 11 and a quarter by 20 and then you've got a a 2 in stone band around that that would be set uh in the garden area.

25 would 25. Did I say 25? Oh, no. I'm wondering if I'm wondering if

I'm wondering if today we could approve a C of A or vote on a C of A specifying the size of the side, specifying which of the two spotted locations we would we would consider, specifying the margins of the stone around the side and and and uh leave, you know, and then add the stipulation that they return for uh the town returns for uh approval of the the specific location, the final placement. Yeah, I that makes sense, John. Yeah, go ahead.

Do we want to consider the total vertical height of the marker? If you look at the one the center image on the left, it's got much more vertical presentation than the one on the right. Yeah, it would it would be less than if if you were to take the what we just described and put it completely vertical, that would be 24 in or two feet. What's the size of the stone? Well, that's what I'm saying. The stone is the stone is uh two in two inches. Well, if it were a natural storm, you can't tell exactly what the margin would be. You have to find the actual physical. Well, based on that description, we're limiting it to 24 in. Okay.

The total the total sign is 24 in. So, if it's vertically on the ground, that's 24 in tall unless you tilt it. So, it's less approach. Then it be less. So, the max the m if it were vertical, the maximum height would be 24. Would we be willing to live with that? No, I'm not sure. you would rather have it

24 in high is is pretty tall. I don't think even Mary Ellen might not like that in in her beautiful natural garden site. We all agree this site is beautiful. Now I'm talking about the one around the historic sign. So, so if we were to if we were to not not define if we as John said define the stone and plaque dimension, not specify the placement now other than the location, but not the exact placement at either of these two locations and then have the town come back with the the the final attitude design and then the final placement at one of these two locations. Would that be something we

or the third location which Martha mentioned which would be over here? We did not we I don't think we are in agreement. We didn't definitely don't want it on the black wall. [laughter] Yeah, it's just it was an option. I I think that okay it's visually over there in the actual memorial. I will tell you it's been a little hard with two feet of snow on the ground. I think today's the first day. I had to carry yesterday.

So that's why I think that with a professional landscaper who could come in and tell us visually and give us a better visual representation, right? I I think that more work has to be done on that. But so there's really there are possibly three. I think the board of seisman were considered garden or the grass area both of which are visible but we we work with the memorial area. I I like the garden area and that it's our it's the Duck River Garden. Yeah.

And and the the plaque being it it associates the the the the plaques with the club who's the sponsor of the presentation. So to me that makes a lot of a lot of sense. So they've also been doing the [snorts] pictures out in front for us. Russ, my concern, I think is perhaps the same as Ed's. I'm not sure, but we don't usually when we approve a sign, we we do talk about three dimensions, the length, the width, and the height.

So I I'm not I'm not sure. As John said, it's hard to visualize, but are we going to stipulate a height now or are we going to leave the height open? I I'm not sure where you because if it's beveled at a 45 degree angle or if it's vertical on either a natural stone or another it's it's going to be a very different look. If we wanted to define a height, you could you could limit it to two feet or you could say something less than that and that would require that whatever that sign be be angled. So if if you'd like to

I think we'd have it at like a vertical angle. I think that would look better than like something straight up and down. So I think we would be looking at vertical low to the ground vertical just enough where you can see it. Yeah. Well, we could maybe maybe we say that no more than 45 degrees. So that that would give you your uh Yeah, that will dictate the height. That would dictate the height. Yeah. So no more than so 15. But 45 degrees from what base? I'm so used to this from the cemetery. We're always, you know, measuring language how they sit on ground. It would sit on ground.

The stone the the edge of the stone would sit on the ground and it would tilt at no more than 45 degrees. Um, and it would be a 13 and a quarter, excuse me, 15 and a quarter by 24 inch plaque. 15 and a quarter. That's what I said. 15 and a quarter. That's with the stone. Oh, I see. Yeah, I got you. And 24 is with the stone. Yeah. And the height would be what? Should we stipulate? Four inches. We're not uh the the maximum the maximum height point would be 4 in. We could say that. We could say four inches. Yeah. Maximum maximum. Yeah.

I mean, if we say if that's not going to be No, no, I agree. 45. She's saying coming up four inches. Yeah, but if you do a 45 degree angle from a flat surface, you're going to be over you're going to be over four inches. But you can No, no, no. The bottom of the bottom of the plaque is 4 in. No, no, no. The highest elevation point of the plaque is 4 in. No, no, no, no, no. That's the vertical dimension of the triangle.

Right. Right. In other words, the 45 defines this height. So, four inches off the ground. The the the the two foot I'm excuse me the uh the 15 and a quarter inch height tilted back 45 degrees. The the the problem is if you've got if you're putting this near the lime sign, the ground is is sloped. So, it's it's not 4 in above a a flat plane. It's 4 in. I mean, it's

I don't know exactly what the slope is ne next to that that sign, but it may be that the top end of the sign needn't be more than a couple inches above the

I I I agree, John. What I'm what I'm trying to do is to get a maximum requirement, a m a limit, and then it can be less than that. But Russ, I think what John's saying and what I'm saying is that the maximum height depends on the location. So were the sign to be signs to be placed here by the spruce tree, it would certainly make sense for it to have a 45 degree angle. But if the signs are in the landscaped uh garden around the old lime history sign, then it doesn't make sense, as John said, because it's on a on a slope already, then it can be less than 45. It can then be less. If we say maximum 45, then that would allow it to be 45 in either spot.

But they wouldn't do that. I mean, in other words, yeah, we wouldn't if we were going to pick if we were going to change it, we would change the dimensions. Yeah. We're if we wouldn't say, "Well, you said this and now we're going to do it." We wouldn't we would just change it to what you think is best depending on what site it goes to. I mean, I'm thinking that we want it at the site with the old lime sign. Like that's probably everybody's first preference if that helps. Yeah. I mean, you could either say it follows the slope of the existing Yeah.

mound and it's no more than 4 in off of that. That's one option. Or you could say it's it's it rests on the grade in front of it and it tilts back 45 degrees. No, no, more than 45 degrees. It could be less, right? It could be less than the other the other thing we could say is that that it follows the slope of the ground. You know, you got it on a natural stone set in that area. You can always come in and petition to change the C of A. So if once you once you get those specifics, you say,

you know, we've talked about this and talked about this and it really makes sense that it's it needs to be elevated a little bit and not fleshed with the slope. Well, then you just submit a a CFA to to propose that change.

That's what we need to do, John, is we're let's let's say for today, let's say that it it follows the slope and it's it's no more than 4 in off of that the thickness of the stone. And then and then we can improve the location. We can improve the the the dimensional size of it. we can we can tie it to the ground and the slope of of that ground and if they need to change that they can come back to us with the final placement and the final attitude. Um that makes a lot of sense to me.

I have I have one last comment though to really to Mary Ellen and to the rest of you. Um, if you were to pl to once you get the sign or once you there's no snow and you think carefully about the beautiful space around the old lime sign, were you then to decide that they would um intrude on the on that garden space and want to place them over here on either side, let's say, of the spruce tree, which has already been discussed. I think we should allow them to still consider that alternative and not tie them to the to the garden site because you're not sure how it would look and how these signs would look in the garden site yet as you said.

Yeah, I I that's a really good point and I appreciate you leaving it open to that. Um I I mean obviously we like in my mind I envision what they would look like there. Um but you're right, they might not look great. I do feel like if they were over in where the trees are, um my feeling is that they might get a little lost over there. Um unless they were really like that's a whole other conversation, right? Like we would we would want to make sure that they didn't get lost sort of in the back where the tree is. Um, so you know, I I don't know that we would if if it was like a last resort, then probably we could talk about it. But, um, yeah, I I'm hoping and and crossing my fingers that what we envision with the existing old Limestein site that it'll work out.

That's what's been presented. I mean, the other hasn't been presented. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing we can do is deny this deny the CFA. Vote to approve the signs with the understanding that they will be placed somewhere near the town hall if if that's people are content with that and then have you come in after you got the got the signs and done a design come in with a new C of A and and that has the normal details in it. I mean what a lot of the discussion we're having today is just a struggle because we don't have

a precise picture of of where they would go and how they would look. But but we could but John I think we could approve we could approve the dimensional aspect of this sign which which gives comfort in the ordering of the signs which is what I'm heard the request and that if we provide some basic stipulations uh on its location not the flag pole the the near the old lime sign we could entertain the the other location if we would like to include that in the approval and and then the exact attitude, height, and placement um would be defined at the next meeting.

That that that's that's fine. I um Okay. I I guess I I think a CFA should specify a location. So we can specify the sign and then if nothing works out there to your to your liking once you once you've really plotted it out and plotted out where paintings would go then you can submit a a C of A to revise the location as well as spin down the the the any any remaining specifics.

Right. I I think that's right. I think we have we we we we vote on the one location at the old line historic sign today and then and then if there is a request to change um or after you look at it and you want to change you come back and update that. But I think we I think we at least can can move ahead with approving uh the dimensional aspect of the sign and the the the general not exact precise location and mounting if you will that that needs to be determined. Russo, [clears throat]

I would be more comfortable with what I think both John and Martha suggested, which is that the main goal today, as I think Martha has said, is to allow them to order the signs and to have four months to consider the location, the the the surround, the height, and all of that as we've discussed. So, couldn't we say, John, that I think you suggested earlier that we approve the length and the w and the width, but not the height yet because the height hasn't unless we approve. I don't know. We haven't the height I still think depends on the location. And if we give them the opportunity to just buy the signs, order the signs, then the specific location and the height and the mounting material can be decided with a later CFA. In other words, I prefer not to specify the location until they've had a chance to examine the location and try out the signs in both places.

I I I I disagree. I think we need to hone in on the general location that's been presented. In other words, I respectfully disagree. I think I I I agree that that, you know, defining the the sign dimensions. I think that's clear. I think we also got to a resolution that the the surround would be no more than two inches beyond the sign dimension. So I in other words I don't think I don't think we need to go beyond that. So I think those things are are agreeable and I think there's an agreeable location um that's being presented. I don't know why we would have multiple locations at this point for the CFA today. Well, the

flexibility. I I do agree with the flexibility that Caroline mentioned, but I will tell you something. I think that once spring comes and they look at what 15 by 20 is going to look like in that garden times two, they're going to realize they're not going to have a garden. Yeah. It's just going to be and it's going to look ridiculous because it it's too much,

I think, for that smaller space. So, I think there's a place for them, but I I'm not sure until we see what we can mount it on and what size could it be done something that's done very clever. When you get somebody a landscaper and a stone person to work with you on a design, I think you can come up with something. But I think the Duckard Garden Club is going to realize they're losing a lot of garden space. I see. And

that was my point. I agree with Martha completely. I think the signs could turn out to overwhelm the garden space and as John has said as we all have said we we love the way the the plantings around the old lime sign looks that the plantings have they you know they've garden club has done a beautiful job and I think they might compromise their own you know best interests but that's to be decided so that was why I was so so so today the CFA would approve the the the use of the I'm I'm going to stick to the 15 and a quarter by for maximum overall dimension uh somewhere on the town hall property. Yes. Is that what we're saying? [laughter] That's what we're saying.

And I I just have to also comment that if things were grossly different, we would we wouldn't move forward. We would make sure that we came to you and said, "Hey, like this is what's happening." Like we wouldn't just stick it there. It it was drastically different. It's not really what the intention is. The intention is to make it look nice and everybody like it. Okay. Then then then maybe it's 15 by 24 on the town hall property. Uh coming back to us with the final design and location with a vertical height not to exceed. What's Yeah. the with the surround. But that would be defined at the

Well, but if you if the if the vertical height not to exceed was the the vertical height of the 15 in so you don't end up with a a big rock that overwhelms the space. Do we want to go ahead and put that limit on it? No, I don't I think we decide that later. That would be for the for the next CFA. Well, we've have different opinions here. Could I go with the majority? Could we se specify that that it be installed on Could we specify that it today that it be installed on a rock or is that up in the air? A stone. Yeah, stone.

Stone and not concrete rather than wood or concrete. Right. Yes, I I agree with that. Um, what you know, Ed, what if we did a, you know, the 15 and a quarter is the height. We should probably give them a little wiggle room. Yeah. What if we did like 18 inches uh a maximum height above above grade? Above the horizontal grade. Above the horizontal grade. Yeah. That gives them flexibility to angle it and position it, but it's it's not up on a flag pole. It's not on a boulder.

On on a boulder. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Right. I I can't I I'm afraid I can't accept that yet. 18 in because I wouldn't like to see 18 in above grade in the sloped uh area around above flat grade. He was saying above the flat plane. So above the level of the grass. So the lawn the lawn. Yeah. Not counting Not counting that. The slope of the So if it's on the slope, it can't be 18 inches above the lawn. Above the lawn. Flat part. The flat grade. Yeah.

That's why I'm just suggesting we leave the height until the next. But but I I I I like the idea of keeping it down and and and so they don't come back and have it up high someplace. Yeah. Okay. Yeah,

I will make a motion since we've we've been crafting this to to approve a uh a Blue Star and Gold Star memorial marker mounted on a stone base not exceeding 15 and A4 by 24 in in total. on the Memorial Town Hall

premise um with a height above flat grade not to exceed 18 in. Do I have a second? Second. All in favor say I. I abstained. John, do do you abstain or do you say do need

No. Well, I I would leave I would leave I guess I'm with Carolyn. I would leave the height out for now. It's just so depend. No, that's a note. So, or do you want me to modify my If you modify it, I I'm happy to because that didn't carry, right? Three three to three to two. Does that carry? Yeah. Yeah. So, three to two carries. So, we have to we'll come back for the new CFA. They'll come back for the new CFA, right? So, it can be adjusted then.

Right. They can adjust then. And and Russ, are you adding the stipulation that that a new CFA be submitted with with Yes. draw drawings and uh specifications. I mean, I'm not I'm not a I'm not a I'm just trying to um Well, I've said what I've said. Okay.

I I think with the I agree it should be drawn out. I think for us, you know, again, none of us have experience with the the mason work of this. So, we would have somebody come and say, "This is kind of exactly what it is." We just haven't found that person yet. So, you will have specifics, drawings, um, things like that for sure. [clears throat] Do we need to revote if we're changing that? because I didn't state that originally with the stipulation. Yeah. Okay. [clears throat]

Yeah. Um if if I guess Martha we want to be careful here that we're following the Yeah, you could you can modify it and then take the vote again. Got it. Yeah. Well, you have to you have to I think procedurally w withdraw and have the second withdraw agree to withdraw the original. Okay. So I would motion

I'll withdraw and Ed I'll stand down. We'll stand down. Okay. So I will try the motion again. Um I make a motion. Well, Martha, why don't you read what I said before? [laughter] Let me add the stipulation. Yeah. Um, you move to approve the blue and gold star memorial markers mounted on a stone base not to exceed 15 in by 24 in. 15 and a quarter. 15 and a quarter um by 24 in.

Um, the height above the flat grade not to exceed 18 in. Right. Um um also could you specify in there the dimensions of the sign itself? It sounds like the dimensions you're giving are the dimensions of the stone. It's it's the to it's the total uh we could we could say the total the total dimension is 15 and a4 by 24 with the blue star sign being 11 and a4 by 20.

Yes. with one inch with one inch lettering in raised relief. I will maintain the not exceeding 18 in uh above grade um with final design and placement. um

with the with the stipulation that an additional CFA be submitted. Yeah. And for approval concerning final grade and placement, right? Is it an additional CFA or is it a Yeah, I guess it would be an additional. So with with with the stipulation of final placement and um attitude and grade I think John

and grade yeah well placement is kind of grade so but yeah we can say grade um provided in a uh second C of A. Do I have a second? A second. 10 seconds. All right. So, this means the final grade will be determined when the second Ca [clears throat] comes in. If the final grade is still to be determined, then I'm happy to vote for it. Okay. All right. All in favor say I.

All right. So, we got it unanimous this time. There we go. Great. Thank you. A lot of discussion, but it's because it matters to all of us. Both the landscaping and the town hall, all this matters a lot. So, that's Thank you for your patience. Yeah. Thank you for your patience and thanks for pursuing the project. I feel like I should just come to your meetings. I feel like I should come to your meetings like every month now. Just like because I've already been coming because you want to torture yourself. has said it.

Um, I do appreciate your time. I know this is very, it's a lot and you guys spent a lot of time on this and I know your volunteers so been on boards and I do appreciate it very much. Um, I wish it wasn't this difficult, but I I do appreciate all your insight. Um, get that dark. I did have a question. I just wanted to clarify with you on something completely separate though for your um juris jurisdiction. Do you have jurisdiction over the Sill Lane uh green? The one where the witness zones are? No. No.

Okay. That's that's what I thought. I heard something different and I just wanted to get it directly from you. Okay, that's it. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. Okay. Bye. Bye. Okay. Oh, wow. We're way behind. We apologize for the the delay. Um public hearing number uh 46 live streaming please.

Hi everybody. I'm Magdwell just bought the property next door at 46 line

and I just wanted to do um what I'm thinking is upgrades to the home. Um I don't you guys do they have a copy of what and Brenda is my wonderful uh landscape architect from uh Waterview. Um so what I'm proposing the um cement walkway that goes from the town side lot to my front door put in the blue stone walkway. Um in the back um I don't know if you are all familiar. So it's a shared driveway with Spears Plumbing which goes down. I just wanted Right now I don't have any type of specific driveway into my garage. It's just all grass. So, we want to put a gravel driveway from extending from the spears portion of the um driveway into my garage and then uh put a propane tank which will be hidden with greenery. Um and I guess there's a question of tell me how far back I have to put it. Nothing specific is said on the propane tank, but I want a propane tank and those are the

the Well, let me ask you the one question I had about the propane tank. I couldn't quite see the location. Well, you tell I mean I haven't even really met with any, but if you guys have specifics on how far back you want it. Well, there's there's there's code requirements relative to windows. I believe windows. Yeah. And and so I I don't know along this because I I think you were suggesting along the side of your house here. Yes. This the side facing the town hall. Right. And so do you have windows along that? Yes. Yeah. So I don't know the specific do you know the specific dimension uh I I can't recall roughly

well it's like four or five feet from a window something like that right so I I think what relative to a propane tank along this this elevation um it it it may or may not be possible to fit that in in this location is what I'm what I'm Yeah. This is again this is Brenda from Okay. Yes. Um I don't know who you are with your house. It goes down and it goes the back of the house. Yes. The deck is elevated and you go up a set of steps to get to I see. I could slide that propane tank

closer to the back of the house. Possibly even notch it around the back. Yeah. Because then the windows would be so high up. Yeah. There's a big meet any house couldn't meet any better than that. I wouldn't think what they are, right? Specifically the rigs, but um there is that flexibility on property and you'd still have the tank close to the driveway where you need it so they can refill it. I mean, the point is that right then the servicemen when they go to refill their tank would be able to back down the driveway and fill the tank. They would have direct access, not drag the hose all the way over to the other side of the property. Right. Right. Which would area of the meeting, but you guys were eight. Right. Right. [clears throat] Right.

See, I'm flexible on the placement. I just So, so could could you just mark so I can kind of see where you're It's a small drawing, but it's bigger in real life. [laughter] Okay. [clears throat] Just kind of where you think that tank might go. Okay. [clears throat] So, wow. Is this Well, this is the front. This is the back. So, here's what I'm saying. I don't know if you can see this, but you can see the corner of the house is right here. Yes. Right. So, it would be very simple to simply put the tank right here. Does that not follow the steps? I thought the steps No, the steps don't come all the way to the corner of the house. Oh, they don't. Uh-uh. I see. I have a good four or five feet there. Right.

So, and then you still have the distance between the corner of the house and the driveway, right? So, I I got to have 10 feet there for sure. And the driveway is is well off the house. Like it's not right up against the house. This is the drive here. Right. Correct. It's 20 feet wide. Wow. My eyes are just really not good anymore. It's 20 ft. Right. 10 of that is a parking space and the other 10 continues around to the to the garage. So, and then there's you can see there's distance here between the you see that when you come down those steps, you're landing on stepping stones that lead you to the driveway. I see. Let me share this with the Let me share this with the rest of the It's very I' really small. I would have brought a bigger one.

Let me share that with the rest of the commission. Oh, she's got a computer. She can make it bigger. Yeah. Just if you enlarge that, you can see all And it's all behind the house. You don't even see it from the road here or over here? On this side? On that side. So they'll have access from the the driveway. That's the whole point. Lime Street on the right side back. You can maybe even go to the windows and and see. It's literally all two doors down. Right. Right. I know. The driveway is if you're looking at the house from the street. Driveway is on the right.

There is along the right side of the house about five feet. It's not a lot, but when you get towards the back of the house, it deepens because there is depth there to the steps. So, it would be possible to actually even turn it like this and still be able to fill it from that drive. So, it would be on the west side of the house, not the side of the house. That's west. Correct. On the west side of the house, but at the end of the house, closest to the driveway. I understand. And screened. So, we're also thinking about visiting. Believe me, I'm screened. Yeah. So, so

Meg would have screened. No question that this her home. So, one of the things we would need uh is the dimension of that tank uh for the CFA. I told you that I don't know that. Is that a 200gallon tank? I mean, I haven't even It's for just a a gas fireplace. So, it's not like So, it's it's not going to be anything big. They're usually like 6 feet by 3 feet a tank. But I don't need a large tank. It's for a, you know, we have to make sure it's not a thousand gallon versus 100% 20 ft long. It's going to be for a propane propane a gas fireplace. She's and her grown chick probably a 200galon tank would carry it through the winter. 100%. No. Uhuh.

No. I have a 100gallon tank I just went through in a month. But she's just using it for the fireplace. It's not for heating. It's like aesthetics and Yeah. I myself have a ventless propane tank in my living room to try and reduce the amount of oil heat I'm burning and this was a very bad winter and I just went through 75 gallons in four weeks. I have still another question about the placement. I'm still thinking about that rather than the capacity and I understand

is it I I wasn't sure about your former your your prior explanation but have you considered I think you have putting the tanks on the west side but on the southwest corner so facing that way and I mean you know will cox is good about pulling the hose they have to pull it in my house so I don't think that's a huge problem um it would be less we work with Will Cox like almost daily so I'm I'm very very familiar with them. Yes, they are good about pulling the hose, but it does mean that their truck will have to stop on Lime Street, pull the hose. It's going to take 10 minutes. I mean, it will um it it's your call. I can put it anywhere you want. It doesn't matter to me. I'm going to screen it matter where you

I will say that that screws up the design because on the west side is her only yard. She is not going to use that yard that's in the hollow. That's for that's for looking at from above and for driving through. That's that whole experience. The front yard is her garden. That's her lawn. That's where she and her little dog are going to be able to stay and sit on the porch and have a garden. So, that would take, if it weren't necessary, it would be better for the design to be able to keep that. There's a garden that goes all along that side. There's going to be trees there. I'm redoing the landscape around the whole front.

But I I wasn't talking about putting it on the south side. I was talking about putting on the west side, but on the south live street is what? Live street is which side of the house? East. East. East. So the back is west. Yes. Okay. So you're talking about the rear. She's talking about west putting talking about putting it on the other west corner. I think she's talking about this side here. Well, what's your opposition to putting it on this side? More visible for who? I mean, we're going to be covering I I'm sorry. I don't I I just don't understand. It's going to be screened and the people who are going to be looking at it are Spears plumbing. Well, they're they're here. So, um so I mean they're plumbers. You got to be used to seeing tanks.

I I would I would welcome and I am putting by the way evergreen around evergreen dwarf h all around it. You will not see it. But if that's what it t I mean I I I want the propane tank. So um Sure. No, she has to have the propane. you guys tell me where to but you know it would be better for the design if you didn't mind seeing it but those are literally the only people that go up and down a driveway that leads so the proposed so to to summarize there's the proposed location which is on the kind of the um northwest corner and and correct

the question is could it go on the southwest or the west southwest corner or the west side and we're hearing that maybe maybe not Um, are there any other because I'd like to I'd like to hear from the members of the audience as well. Um, any other comments that you guys would like to make at this point on the design and and go ahead. No, I'm just here for my brother. I see. I don't know if you had any specific comments or concern. We were just concerned about [clears throat] the the driveway more. Um, right. just wanted to make sure that it was understood that's a shared driveway with an easement and we just wanted to touch it

driveway extension was gone. In fact, the driveway there's going to be a cobble border where it meets [clears throat] the asphalt so it won't the asphalt will not be damaged in any way. If anything, we're improving it. Do you follow? Sort of. I actually like to I'm going to look out the window. There's a drawing also that makes you feel where that driveway where her driveway where you you go ahead and look and I'll you'll hear me as you're as you're going down to Spear's driveway you turn left into her driveway parking where that that 20 foot wide is a three-foot deep cobble apron and the edges are all cobble doing a beautiful job first. Yeah, that's great.

She'll be a great neighbor for you guys. Yeah, I'm sure. So your your your specific concern which is maintaining access on the roadway is sh is shared, right? If there's an easement and there's an easement. Yes. Absolutely. That that that wouldn't change in this in what's being proposed here. And everybody does understand there's a subject and subject. We haven't touched it. And that does I wouldn't touch it. That wouldn't be right. Fallen. So So in in terms of the uh a stone apron, a gravel drive. Okay.

Um a screen propane tank in that northwest corner and then uh and then there's modifications to the front sidewalk that are being further. Is it I'm sorry. Is your name? Is it Gail? Have you seen because maybe I don't know if Brenda can do it now. We can send you like just plans. I can email you a copy of the environment. Yeah. So, I'll give you my card before I leave. Email organ. All right. I'd like to bring the meeting back to focus, please. So, we're all focused here. Um, and did do we lose Ed? I think he might have gone to the rest. Here he is. I have another meeting. Sorry. Yeah.

The walkway. I just want to make sure everybody understands. Thank you, Carolyn. You're welcome. So, um, we heard from the neighbor the main concern, Ed, while you're out is that that it's a shared easement and that doesn't affect here. We describe the, uh, the proposed addition uh of the driveway. Uh, no concerns from the neighbor. So, um, any other thoughts or comments? Karen just wanted to reiterate that she had thought that I'm hiring a little bit more. It could be tucked in on that other side of the rear porch and probably feel from the same way. Like it would be cool. Can you share that around a show where might be able to see?

So still the rear of the house but on the other corner. Yeah. Yeah. It's just on the other um Yeah, you could do that. Just from the driveway. It would be where she suggesting right up against the new driveway where where you're driving down under the porch. It would be under the porch. Okay. Technically up against the back of the house just before you get to the driveway. Right there. Right there. Yeah. I need enough room to screen it, but that's only a couple of feet. Yeah, that's cuz she's thinking it would be a little more tucked in and nobody would see it. I mean, you I was going to make it so that you could walk along there to get from your driveway around to your steps so you could get upstairs when you pull your drive car all the way over to your garage, but you had suggested that you would go through the garage anyway. I don't think I would.

So, that wouldn't affect the design in any way. We could do that. And I just don't know if the gas company has any like she said, at least then they're on the driveway, not on Lime Street. That's my big concern is for for them here. Okay. Here. So So instead of the uh instead of the north, the right corner, the northwest corner, it would be the southwest corner. Yeah, exactly. On the west facade. Yeah. John, do you do are you following, John? Uh more or less. Yeah, more or less. Okay. So, uh, basically we're going to move mo suggesting to move the propane tank to the northwest corner of the between the driveway and the deck uh along the west facade uh of the house.

So, it's going to be in the back of the house. Would there be a change in the specified size of the pad for the propane tank? I mean, whatever's necessary for the size tank, I I don't know the specifics of that, but I haven't even gotten the size of the tank yet. as soon as I have. But I don't need a large tank. I have I have two of those temporary in front of my house right now. So I I kind of have They're not huge. They're really um Do you know the for the CFA? Do you know the the gallon yet? Do you know? I because I haven't contacted the gas company. Again, it's not going to be even if it's 250. They're like 3 feet wide and about four or five feet tall. I just like to be able to put something in like no greater than a 250 gallon tank or 250 will be fine.

Yeah. I mean, if they have to come refill it, they'll refill it, but I'm not using it to heat the house, per se. Yeah. So, that's Are you year round in that house? Um, some I have a summer place at Point of Woods, so I'll be there in the winter paint. So, I'll be there, you know, most of the year. Yeah. I I had a few I had a few specific questions. Uh, first about the form itself. The form that was sent to us did not have attachments checked and was not signed. I was in I just moved here this weekend. So I was I can sign it now. I wasn't available to sign it but I can sign it now.

Um we should specify once you've decided on the location on what side screening is necessary. The commission's concern traditionally has been screening so that it's not visible from the street. Um visible I don't right you know so we may want to specify Russ whatever sides that is

um you mentioned that there would be a cobble edge to the driveway. How high would we should, as we have with other situations, specify the maximum height above the the ground of copper. It would be flush. It would be flush. You drive across it. It's an apron. Okay. I just noticed that's a term I'm familiar with. I just noticed that it wasn't specified. Yeah, it's flush. And do do you have a description of the cobblestone? Cobblestones are 9 in roughly by 4 in. Say that again. They're made of granite. Granite. What dimension?

Cobblestones. They're roughly 4 in by 9 in generally because they're a natural stone. They vary, but that is really where they lie. Basically, they're set on a concrete foundation. Just so that you know, just it has a concrete foundation. They do have a mortar joint. It will specify natural stone. Russ, she said she said granite. rent, right? But we've just in our Oh, in general, we'll just say natural stone in approving the because I don't think that was specified in the application. We'll say natural stone. You you talk about on on the blue stone that there would be

at the front. Blue stone along all borders or set blue stone along all borders. Again, [clears throat] would that be flush? Okay, let me switch to the walkway now for a second. I don't want to confuse anybody. We're going to go from the apron in the driveway to the walkway in the front.

We are taking out the concrete walkway which exists and replacing it with a blue stone walkway 4T wide. The blue stone itself is an inch and a half thick. It is set on a bed 6 to 8 in deep of compacted process, so it's permeable. The outside borders are set in a puddle of concrete to retain the pattern, but the the walkway itself is permeable to water. So, it doesn't heat. There's no mortar. Nothing moves. It said but joint. It's forever. No maintenance.

My question is simple. I got most of that from the the form. Thanks. But the borders themselves, same question as with the cobblestone borders. Are those flush? Elevation elevated? Yes, they're flush. Yeah. Yes, the blue stone is flush. Flush to the ground just as it is now. Okay. I just want to clarify because sometimes when people say borders, they you think of raised borders. I just want to specify that. I know better than to change things on. [laughter]

Okay. Um the driveway gravel um we typically uh specify a color or range of colors. Okay, I can help you.

I know Meg well enough to know. Um I did her house in Point of Woods, so I I know her well. Um generally we don't use 38, which had become the norm, but it tends to stick to people's tires and on their shoes and it scratches their floors. So we tend to go with more of a 1/2 inch. We like natural color which has looks more like sand. There is some variation between the grays and the naturals. Looks very natural. We are we are I believe we do oil and stone. Um we do that so that the stones don't pop too much. Um and then the cobble on the edge retains everything in. Where you have gravel you must have cobble or steel. and steel is not she's a traditional woman and this is a traditional home cobble edge.

Okay. Uh I think that's those are my questions. Yep. Those were all my questions. Thank you. John, do you want to Go ahead. No, I'm done. I was going to say, do you want to formulate a motion based on all these responses? I've been Or would you like for me to try to do that? I've been trying to take notes. Well, I have to toggle between screens to get back to the right the form. So, if you could could could could do it. It's just I think you're proving it

as submitted with the specifications that the size of the pad be no larger than necessary to uh accommodate a 250galon tank that the location of the pad be moved. You want to specify the screen, the location of the screening, uh, and make sure where we have a standard that it be at a height sufficient to, uh, come up to the top of the tank. Uh, you want to specify that the blue stone edging and the cobblestones are flush with the ground. Uh, and you want to specify that the the stone color be uh a natural uh brown brownish or grayish stone. I guess you know you can have natural stone that's pure white and it just

doesn't fit. So that that's all there. A lot of this is in the uh the CFA document itself. Yes. So I would just add as say say that the the motion is to approve it as submitted with the specifications that and then add in whatever details are not there. All right. Does anybody uh we just lost Julie so we don't have a quorum at the moment. Yeah. Yeah you do. Three people are at quorum.

Oh three. We can go with three. Okay. Uh I'll make a motion to approve the CFA as noted with the following stipulations. The uh that there will be a screening that extends to the top elevation of a propane tank located in the um southwest corner uh of the house on the west facade. Um, just lost him. Oh, we just lost John. Just the visual. Are you still there, John? He's muted. No, there's a line to the Oh, boy.

So, now you got to wait for her, right? Yeah. And just cuz I was reading over this is this whole thing is is new to me. Um, and I was just confused on the like is like, I think the term was like light like like Yes. So just the front shutters I just wanted to paint like hunter green like the rest of the trim is do I need to fill out a C of A or since it's I heard paint color so okay by the way the evergreens will be four to five feet so they will be big enough to cover the tank we need you Julie because we lost John lost John yeah so you're worth the quum now right so I was going through the motion

um and uh up until the point because Martha's taking notes. I won't repeat myself. Um that we have the blue stone front sidewalk is flush grade. Um the driveway has a cobblestone edge with 4 in by 9 in cobblestones also maximum are mounted flush with grade and the driveway will include a 1/2 inch uh natural color uh gravel. It is a oil and stone uh mixture and has a cobble edge also flush with grade. Did I miss anything?

The material I think is right one and a half inch stone not gravel. The blue stone is the blue stone is one and he's talking about gravel for the driveway. The surface of the driveway surface of the driveway is is gravel. The surface of the walkway is blue stone. One hand one and half inch. So you're going to do oil oil and stone gravel. It will look like gravel on the surface. Okay. I know what it is. Yeah. Yeah. The blue stone is one and a half inch thick part. That's for the walkway. For the walkway. Yeah. You couldn't afford to do an entire driveway. Nice. I think that's uh I think that's it. Do I have a second to the motion?

Seconded. All right. All in favor? I thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your patience. Nice to meet you all. Thank you. Appreciate it. Okay. Uh John, we just voted without you. Okay. So, you abstained. It's It's official. No, I didn't abstain. I didn't vote. Okay. You didn't vote. Okay. I don't know what happened to the connection. All right.

Uh moving on. I mean, we're we're way over. So, uh, let me just go through the last the last few items here. Is there anything that is urgent that we cover uh, prior to a journey? Yes, church sign. Uh well discussion that we need to discuss that and we also there is one one urgent matter that needs to be discussed under the catchall uh zoning and other requested town information.

Okay. Well, let's let's have a brief discussion of the church sign if we could. Is there anyone here from the church? No. Oh, I thought Carolyn said their administrative assistant would be Nobody's here. So, any any comments or discussion on the church sign? Gone now. It's gone. It's gone.

Well, I guess I guess my my my cons question for the commission is just what do we do? Uh they they ignore us. They've ignored us on tempor other temporary signs. We've provided information about approvals in advance. Um, is it worth sending a letter reminding them that signs need to be approved in advance and say again we have a a process for an expedited review of ordinary temporary signs?

Well, let me let me ask you this question, John. There's two items I noted at the church. One is there's still flags hanging from the church. Are those considered signs? And number two, there's a light above there's a light above the church sign that it's illuminating nothing cuz it's not illuminating the sign and it's like [clears throat] 10 ft tall. Used to illuminate the front of the church, didn't it? Uh maybe there was a tall sign that I told you. So now now they have a light on top of that shining down but it's not illuminating the sign because it's so high up. I haven't seen it. Right. So

the poll, but I didn't see it on. Right. I saw I drove by last night. And so my my my comment is should we maybe address some of these items along with the comment that you're making? How about inviting the administrative person to be at our next meeting? I agree with that. I think that's a good idea. I think Martha and Russ and I should try to uh formulate a a short letter saying, you know, there are a number of number of issues that we'd like to discuss and let's do that. Put in lines about how we're so grateful for the church's cooperation,

right? Great. I I I agree. I think an invitation would be nice. I think I think it sends the wrong message to the community who's by and large cooperative with the HDC regulations, right? To have spontaneous things occur. I agree. Do you want any of those comments on record? No. No. Okay. That's just just I mean it's being recorded so um all right uh any other church discussion points? Yeah.

All right. Let's move to uh proposed new zoning rag matters. Is that the other critical point John? Yeah. I mean very briefly on on zoning, we should find out as soon as possible when this phase 2 meeting is. Phase two is rather open and endended. The the our comments before were directed at the draft that was submitted. Um

and though most of those will be considered our comments will be considered in phase two. But if there are other things we would like the zoning regs to to do or say that might be new, we this is the opportunity to do it, right? I think um well, let me ask this question. Can anybody attend the uh and maybe we could send a note to everybody uh attend the meeting tonight to just find out? I'm I'm getting on a plane this afternoon. So,

I'm going to be there for the uh cemetery association. Um would you would you be able to if if any discussion about phase two, could you report back to us um anything that comes up on that? That that would first be helpful. Okay. And and then number two would be to John's point for us to to contemplate for the next meeting uh or depending on timing when they're I I imagine this phase two process is going to be lengthy I would imagine. So I think we could take up any discussion on the zoning uh at the next meeting. Yeah.

Yeah. Probably. But it would be

it would be helpful and if if they don't say if you could find out or just ask when when that process will begin when the the first meeting will be. the the the one item that's urgent is the uh request from Jim Lampost for information about a resiliency committee which is concerned with I gathered largely the prospect of rising waters and their impact on on on structures or property townwide. But um they have requested a in information about the material that the HDC consults on these in on the these issues. And it seems to me that what we consult is information provided by Shipo, information provided by Preservation Connecticut, and perhaps information uh provided by the National uh Register of Historic Places. I know when Russ and Deanie were going through the uh issue with the Griswald Point property, there were there were links to any number of well to several uh websites, but this is now a request that's well over a month old and we need to get back in touch with them right right away. Um, so I'm wondering if it would suffice to if if if it would be easy enough to pull together some websites and just

send them a links and say the the this is the information we consult on uh on uh resiliency. Do they does shipo do they have specific resiliency sections? I don't know. Right. I think that has to be researched. I I just how how Shipo and the preservation Connecticut how it relates to res. Can you look at the phrasing quickly of the Marissa attached the letter? Um it's on I think page two.

Yep. I have a copy. I think I put copies in everybody's packet.

Right. So, what does it what does it say on page two that they're requiring right away? any studies, plans, data sets, reports, or other materials your department or group uses that relate to flooding, storm waters, coastal uh river resilience, land use, zoning, conservation or housing, infrastructure vulnerability or climate related assessments.

Well, housing housing vulnerability. I mean, I know there are plans somewhere like new that Newport, Rhode Island, for example, has done a lot of work on on plans for housing that is affect that's right next to the coast that's affected by uh rising sea levels. So, I don't know how we how we find find this, but perhaps we should uh put a question out to Preservation Connecticut and to um

Shipo. Yeah, I think that's the thing. I think that's the that's what we need to do is is find out if the state has any guidelines that we should be aware of. Martha, could you ask ask them that question and then we can just pass along something, right? Because if we start dig digging, it's we don't know what we're going to find. Yeah. It also anti as I'm reading this letter, it's anticipating that they're anticipating that somebody from every town commission be on board this resiliency committee, which is to work meet quarterly. So

yeah, I think I think this raises another topic, John, in that we have several other town committees, zoning, halls, road, sidewalk, this and I don't think if if a member for the historic commission has volunteered time on the commission, it doesn't necessarily mean that they volunteered to to extend to these other committees as well. Exactly.

I think I think the the best that we can do is uh try to have individuals attend these meetings, but I I think it's ownorous to expect that somebody would be designated to represent the commission on these other town committees because there may be more if we start doing it. Well, we we can make we can make that clear to to uh Russ. The the sidewalk committee as of last night has not yet been constituted, but they have a March start date. So, whoever has applied to that apparently is going to be uh on that committee. I don't think that's anything urgent but once a chair is designated we could just uh send an email to the chair and say of course you will please keep us informed and if they are having a a meeting that see appears to

involve a consideration of designs particularly coming into the historic district and for the portion of the sidewalk that's in the historic district. We should we should know about them. Oh, they have to come to us. I think that's it is that we're a standing committee and that when when they overlap our jurisdiction, they have to come to us on that. And it's nice that if somebody can attend just like the zoning tonight, but it's it can't be a requirement. I think I read that there was only one person that volunteered to be on that sidewalk. [laughter]

Well, what I'm Well, I won't even say it. Um we anyway uh yeah [laughter] maybe maybe the commission maybe the work will be handled by the board of selectmen who you know [snorts] I'm going to out of out of the fact that I have to get ready to go out of town. Uh unless there's anything else one quick thing. Yeah sure. Um I read on social media that Nightgales was bringing in another vendor for food. Yes. Um do they have to submit? They were serving food before

they that's a that's a zoning issue number one. And then and then if there are any changes, structural signs or anything like that, they would have to come for us. So if they put signage up, they would have to come. That's right. Um I have just two two two comments. One is uh to suggest that the secretar's report perhaps for this meeting be um uh submitted in writing y and entered in the minutes rather than spending time now with Martha going through the items. But Martha, if you could specifically

highlight what has happened with the the skylights uh at the school door, the transom and number one and number two, if you could check with Elena if you haven't recently, but put in something specific about when we're anticipated to get this work. I I just Okay. I I think it's I have not heard anything back from her despite having asked the the the some some questions. So, u I haven't asked the questions recently, but she just hasn't responded. The second thing is, and this we can talk about next meeting, but we have a whole slew of stuff [clears throat] that we never fully get to because the the CFA material takes so long. We have we have zoning followup. We have

to responses owed to the planning committee about the last POCD. They're already starting to work on the on the next one. We have website revisions that apparently Elena now is not going to be able to get to. We have draft lighting guidelines. We have draft demolition guidelines. We have to finish the portion of the signage guidelines related to um uh realtor signs. None of those things if we come in with drafts should take a huge amount of time. But I am thinking that perhaps in in in April uh or May we should we should uh set a special meeting to to uh tackle them. We just always run out of time at the end of regular meetings and so

I'm sure we can do that. All right. Um, I make a motion we adjourn. Second. Second. I All in favor? Thanks everybody.