Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

memo. The planning development department is recommending approval of PC126 with the condition that new shrubs and ground cover be included in the design and future plantings to ensure replication of the current visual screening at the pedestrian level. I'm happy to take any questions. Thanks Christian. As a reminder, each member of the public will be given three minutes to speak when we open the public hearing. Does any commissioner uh commission member have any exparte communication to disclose? I'm hearing none. With the applicant, please come forward to be sworn in and give any presentation.

Please raise your right hand and state your name and address. Nick, I'm going to have you tap the mic as well. Just there you go. State your name and address. Uh Nicholas Johnson, my home address. You can use the Penman address. Uh well 8036 Avenue North is my home address right here in Jack Speech. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give in this matter is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth to help you God. Yes. Thank you. As a reminder to the commission, uh please refrain from interrupting the presentation and hold questions to the end. You may proceed.

Uh thank you for uh meeting with me tonight. Uh I'm Nicholas Johnson and I'm here on behalf of Beaches Energy Services. Uh currently we are undergoing a transformer rehab project at the Penman substation and uh as part of that it's a million dollar project currently and the initial kickoff to the transformer refurbishment project was due to the rust on transformer one and two at Penman substation. Uh these are $3 million assets. They take three years to get. If if we ordered one today, it would be 36 months before we'd even see it on site. So, it'll take a while. Um, that being said, um, as a rateayer, I've never wanted to incur any additional costs. Um, want to try to value engineer things the best we can. Uh, one savings opportunity is to stop the the rust propagating properties that are going on, which is the the leaves and and plant materials coming off the the larger trees above the wall, um, from propagating against the the transformers. So, so they store moisture like kind of the intro said here. Um, and that's causing rust. We have we've had a 16th of an inch of rust propagate through the 3/4 inch thick uh steel. Um, that being said, if we go another quarter inch further, then we're like structurally damaged where we'll have to replace transform either way. Uh, these are scheduled on a life cycle of 40 years. They've only incurred 22 years up to date of a life cycle. So, we're another 20 years out and we're already spending a million dollars just to revamp them now. Um, Walkershaw, the manufacturers came out, they've identified uh the root causes of the rust, large part being the the trees and vegetation around it. So, anything we can do to mitigate that, we've mitigated the foundation designs and everything, and this is the last portion of it. Um, so we don't take it lightly to remove trees. Um, I don't know if we have a firm arbor stance or anything at Beaches Energy,

but it's just not something we're not trying to just remove trees to remove them. Um, so as a good steward of of the public and the I guess the initial feelings of of what the 2002 uh contract was to repurpose the land, build the the load substation in there, build the wall, hide the wall, which I kind of don't understand that part, but we build a wall, then we hide it. But to keep up with that, we wanted to go back with like a patio austram. Uh we had landscaping crews come out. Um multiple people have bid this like since 2024. We've looked at at ways to like kind of fix up the the current vegetation. Uh one of the designs was 20 $265,544 um which is quite a bit you know over a quart million dollars. That was two years ago. So maybe more now. Uh we had another proposal uh for 51,000 uh which was close um to what you guys are are viewing now. And the third proposal we got is for $63,000 uh $528. And that gets the the current view of what you're seeing with the patio lustrooms. Uh one one note that was mentioned to us when we initially applied for the tree removal permit was that we should go back with 43 trees. And I was like that kind of makes sense. So, we we we got the new quote and that's where the $63,000 comes in. Um, we're hesitant to, you know, increase price due to rateayer impacts, you know, moving forward. Um, also, you have a a benefit of without the additional shrubs underneath and the additional mulch required, you have a lower landscaping uh maintenance bee moving forward year-over-year. Um that being said, the patio lustress rooms do require some minimal maintenance but are a very slow growing tree in the sense of we have to trim it

every other year and keeping with that a good grass cover underneath and upgraded um what's the irrigation system I guess I'll fix it'll at least have a visual aesthetic of better than what we currently have out there. I don't know if you guys have seen Pin Road uh substation lately and um so I I do hear your recommendations on the conditions to have new shrubs and ground cover including the design in future. Um I would like to propose that we stick with just the patio lustrooms as the design lays out but there are two vacant walls along the front like two outcrops. So, if you see the design, you'll see the the dots for the patio rooms, and you'll see along Penman Road, there's two sections on the north and south side of of the the drawing that are void of them. I would like to propose adding those if that meets halfway on what the recommendations are. Um, but I I think right now this is the most value added solution. Um, I think it's the least impacted rate payers. Um, I think it gives us the most longevity out of the equipment. So, from all all angles, I I think this is the most cost-effective solution and that's after I've got three proposals from uh Prestige and then the fourth one is the proposal you see today and that's the most comprehensive by far. And then I have a quarter million dollar solution provided by Chenmar Associates that I I just don't I just don't want to put the rateayers up against that. And likewise, I don't want to also ruin $3 million transformers. So there's a there's a concern on on both sides there of of trying to make the best economical decision, but but stay in the in the gist of what the original contract was was written to. So I thank you for your

time and if you have any questions, please let me know. Thank you for your presentation. Do any commission members have any questions for the applicant? Please go ahead. Yep. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I'll return back to exparte perhaps because I called and spoke with Christian today. Staff, I'm staff. Okay, great.

All right. Well then on that um then on the questions um thank you to the presenter for sharing the addition to address staff's recommendation of adding in ground cover. I had a question for our our our applicant and our board members about um the Penman Road improvement project which I looked at the different segments and in the we'll call it the bumpout or the blank wall that's closest to 12th Avenue North. Uh that's where is a proposed pedestrian crossing to go over to the new what would be the new path on the eastern side. And so I think the suggestion to add additional legustrums would be a good one there to soften that. Um I'd like to talk about additional grasses in some sense for the pedestrian experience along the wall. I think along that whole length of the building um if there's some exploration of that. I think I understand the shrubs are causing a maintenance issue. So what are your your thoughts on that? And then to our other my fellow board members about any grasses in a in a limited sense that would balance that look.

Yeah. So no landscape architect. I do not claim to be. I reach out and outsource this. Uh but uh my personal experience uh we have removed two different uh vagrant beds and cops and multiple uh totes and just they continue to return. Um I'm not sure who brings them there. Um but that's a bit of a safety concern and and as a pedestrian I just I don't I don't like when my my guys have to go out there and they're, you know, just maintaining the fence. um and just have to be exposed to a potential hiding spot for that. And I do have growing concerns too if there's like a crosswalk or something like that, a potential hiding spot or something like that to keep that um it it doesn't seem to go away, but it's a great hiding spot for something like that. Uh which is a personal concern of mine, but I don't want that to reflect um any any way trying to get away from putting additional shrubs. Um, if that's the recommendation of the planning commission, uh, we'll see what we can do to to put more shrubs in. Uh, but I'm also concerned about the increase in maintenance costs of adding like additional mulch beds, um, additional trimming or whatever is incurred other than they're already going to cut the grass there. So, we're going to have to pay for that. I would love if they could just come in and just do the weeding the grass, trim the trees every year or so and that's that be the maintenance versus additional mulching, additional uh shrubs if possible. Um I understand uh the original document was was written to it was a very elaborate what we have now. Um, but I I would recommend against a more simpler solution. Um, and and try to try to meet the the feel of the original agreement if possible. Um, I'm not objecting, but I'm just asking if we could consider that.

And so, we'll have an opportunity to discuss amongst ourselves once there's a motion. Um, so right now we're just asking questions. Yep. Are there any other questions? One follow. Oh, yeah. Please continue. Right. Thank you. Um, Mr. Johnson, in the imit in the proposed landscape graphic that we have, there are it looks like to be mulch beds. So, to clarify, would that not be you would have on the image that we're looking at, we just have plantings and then saw up to the trunk and the and the um the the way illustration. Yes, sir.

It looks like they're adding in mulch beds that are framed. So just for clarity, so they have they have cypress mulch um in the quote from Prestige. So the as as it's viewed there is my understanding the way it will look that rendering should be as as closely to what it should look like finished. Thank you Mr. Doll. I believe you have a question. Yeah. Thank you. Nick, what would you tell me what your modifications are and just at the clearest non-engineer regular guy? Yeah. More time, please.

So I know what I'm voting on because I'm still confused. Yes. Um, so, uh, Pinman substation is basically just a walled substation. It's it's got like 10 foot walls all around it. Right outside that before the sidewalks there is um it's like bushes and shrubs, palm trees, oak trees. We're saying, "Hey, we would like to cut all those down to nothing. It would be strictly grass all the way around and then come back and plant 43 patios, which is like a little tree. I didn't know what it was. I'm saying it like I know it. I I'll be honest with you. I I look on this picture and that's what it's supposed to look like." And that that's the end goal is it will just look like that. That's the buffer around the wall. Yeah.

Okay. Cost and long-term maintenance. You said you got 22 years left or 18 years left on your transformers. How long How long are these going to What are they going to cost over 18 years? Do you know? Do you I did not be the most economic choice. I don't have a actual maintenance budget going into 2026 um as far as what the increase would be and decrease. Okay. Right. Right. Now, right now we would we would be maintaining less plants and that's that's the thought. It it will be less since we have less to maintain because I heard you say the public the rateayers. The public the rateayers. Yeah.

We're all there. I'm with you. Yeah. And wanted to hear what I'm I'm saving. So you just told me but I also I want it to look appealing to I I don't want Absolutely. It's a buffer there so people aren't Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Miss Lindsay had a great point when talking about people running by there even, you know, like when they're jogging route and I was like, I have ran by there before. Not not often. Probably walk back, but it was like I was like, yeah, that that would kind of that would look different, you know. And then I I was envision myself going across this crosswalk when that comes out. And I didn't understand the concept because I stick with engineering, you know, I'm not doing landscape, but I was like, okay, yeah, I get the idea. Would it would look less appealing when you walk into a wall like

Okay. So, you got more appeal. You get rid of the the datrius that's causing the gener the uh uh transformers to to uh corrode. And you're doing the right thing for the taxpayers. Trying to see. We'll see.

Um so, a couple of questions for myself. Um maybe just one. Um actually a couple. So, um, yeah, I'm with you and I appreciate your call out about removing trees and that not being something you take lightly. I know that that's a value of all the agencies and institutions here. So, thanks for calling that out because I know people are really sensitive to that, myself included. So, one question would be um, and I'm sure there's a cost to it, but is there any consideration or possibility of like moving any of the trees like the palm trees or is that like kind of out of the question? I do see that they're quite mature. So, I'm guessing the answer is no. Um, but has that been considered?

Without being an arborist or any kind of u landscape professional, I I don't know the price. I make a blanket assumption. It would be well over $1,000 per tree. Yeah. To even uproot one with that like four paddle looking thing. Like double your cost basically. Yeah. I would assume that or better. Cool. um even the big engineered project design and everything to do to fix that scenario back. It it was just stump grind everything. It wasn't even remove anything and that was still a4 million dollars.

So that's that's where I was. I I only have like another higher quote to go by that was more extensive and then I no experience on how much it would cost to remove that.

I I don't either. So, uh just just curiosity um if they could be put put to use. But, um the other question I have, so thanks for that. Um and no worries. I I'm also not an arborist. Don't expect you to be. The other question I have is just um you mentioned sod and the patio legest rooms. also not an arborist, also not a botonist or a landscaper, but I do know that there are um local uh ground covers and local tree varieties. And I'm curious if the patio lagustrum is a local variety and saw is is definitely not it. Um no, you don't know. Okay. So, I don't know either, but I want to pitch it out there. Um and it is something that we have the ability to to approve with conditional use. So it might be something or uh approve with condition. So it might be something we take back to conversation here. Um but if there is a way without impacting cost to pick a similar but local variety, it might actually save you in ongoing long-term m maintenance and ground covers like keyrass and stuff that are local if if there is a way to keep your your cost flat. But consider uh local natives uh to this area. It might help with your ongoing maintenance costs, but then it's also just um for uh basically reducing the headaches of trying to sustain a plant for example that wasn't like if those trees are not zoned or not matching to this zone, then you have a big freeze come up like we just did and then they all die and then your investment is shot. So, just kind of making sure th those kinds of um options are considered with the landscaper that you go with if they have those options available. Um curious if the conversation comes came up. If it

didn't, that's okay and expected and we can bring that back for discussion here. Um that did not come up. Um, could I conditionally as long as I provide that I I that I present that question to Prestige Landscapes who um will be doing the project. If I provide a question to them stating that could a naturally occurring grass or something to that natural to or indicative to this area. Okay. native to this zone and area and they'll probably understand the question better than you and I could phrase it.

Yeah. And please continue your question because I think the answer is going to be yes, but go ahead.

Yeah. Um if if it is non-cost if if it does not increase cost um I will ask them if they can provide a native species and then I can provide that uh email or in writing because I I'll probably call him and see see if you know if they can do something like that. Um I can write an email and then um I can see to you guys if that's okay as far as like a proof to kind of keep this project going because again I've also got like a million dollars of work that's happening right now. that I'm the root cause is still sitting right there and I was hoping we could get this part knocked out too, but I just don't want it to propagate again um and rerust everything that we we've spent a lot of money to to fix. U but I think that's a simple enough uh question to ask. Um, I imagine the answer may not be a yes, but I I would like to see that and I'll expand that to as well if there is a patio legustramm. I don't know if that's a native species either.

And that's like we have bear grass and patio lagustrum. So So I I'll see if I'll see if it is a native. That's great. So perfect. It's in our prep. It's in our Yep. And Christian probably is going to address it.

Yeah, it is. It's a it's a non-native in that it's um technically Japanese uh privet, but it's not um they don't propagate, so they're not invasive in the sense that they're going to spread. Um the only native privet that we have is more of a shrub. It doesn't really get above like five or six feet typically. Um and it grows more in drier central Florida. Doesn't really make its way up here all that often. Uh more inland if it does. So, um this is an acceptable species. It thrives here, does well. Um, mine did okay. I have Japanese used Japanese private in my yard and it was fine in the freeze. And that's kind of what I'm getting at is that we're not creating headaches by the species that we picked, especially when we just had a crazy hard freeze and everybody's yards are falling apart. Um, and then for the sod, um, do we recommend or do we have anything in the code related to, um, ground cover or native ground cover? It's

We have some generalities. Um, our code mostly focuses on trees as far as ground cover. Um, uh, let me see. I mean, generally, obviously, you know, zeroscape native stuff is really, um, the best. We generally just refer to grass side. We don't get into, you know, anything except, you know, noxious invasive species that aren't recommended. But um most native grasses are clumping as far as they're not like solid. They don't spread. Well, yeah. I mean, pear grass was everywhere before. That's a common one.

Um there are plenty of uh other ground covers that can be used like um the decorative peanut things like that that remain relatively short and typ.

Yeah, they're very, you know, drought tolerant. Um they're typically plugs as opposed to saw. So insulation and growth takes a little bit longer. Um there's also a lot of uh what we consider decorative grasses that are native. Um I cannot think the name of it off the top of my head. Not wire grass, but um there's a couple that are, you know, they'll grow 3, four feet in diameter. They're you can trim them with like a hedge trimmer or a string trimmer. They're not maintenance intensive. They again don't uh tend to spread. So, I don't know that there's a good um substitute for sod that's going to grow in quickly. Y

um but there are some alternatives out there. Generally, you know, the typical grass species that we use here for soding are okay, relatively drought tolerant. They already have irrigation there. So, I think, you know, in that sense, it'll probably be fine. Cool. That that's my question. Um I don't know if there are other questions. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, you mind if I ask a question? Um the Christian proposed part of his planning report to include both the 43 trees and the shrubs. You're saying from your end to include the additional shrubs that's there now. That requires more maintenance over time and less ability or ease to clean the wall. That's the problem you're having now. Is that correct with like the shrubbery? Um, yeah, I think it's a multifaceted thing. Not not just a cleaning aspect of the wall, but uh the vagrant concerns and then uh just overall curb appeal. I mean, it to me I I saw these renderings and I was like, that looks a lot better. And as someone that that drives by there, I go to uh Springs quite a bit and

it's like I always see that and I'm like, man, they really need to do something about those oak trees. And then a couple years ago, I started working for Beaches Energy and I was like, "Oh, nice. We can do something about those ho trees and they are a big problem." Anyways, um so that was that was a an eye openener. We and being able to be a part of like redoing that to where I guess the rest of the beach community can actually be a little bit more proud of of you in that area and looks a little more curve appeal would be great. Um I think it was it was a good point to we had two two spots that would be open when we came in. We I I'm proposing that we do not go back with with the uh like the littleer shrubs and we just stick with just like one type of vegetation uh just from a maintenance standard. They come out, they cut the grass, they trim the trees, they leave. Um we're not doing too many crazy big mulch beds um that just blend into everything. There's three different types of shrubs that are currently growing in there. Um and each of them um the landscaper when he was out, he was like, "Oh, this is this type of bush and this is this type of bush." I was like, "Oh, I guess they all are different, you know, like it was you don't even notice how bad it is till you really start looking at it." Um, and the the overall thing is we should have never planted. Um, and I tip my hat to whoever whoever did this design initially, like it looked probably great before it grew above the wall. Um, but that's just a concern. Um, we don't traditionally build substations very close to any trees. mainly there's like nerk certification stuff that you're not allowed to have a tree fall on any type of 100,000 KV line or better you can get fined. Um that's a big no no. Um but if you see like our big transmission easements are cut way back. Uh we have two 138 KV lines that go into that substation. We could technically probably cut these back, but that's not that's never been our our stance. We we do minimal tree trimming at best. Um, this is just one of the situations where it being above the wall is affecting $6 million worth of assets.

And we're just trying to do the best we can um to mitigate that and just keep the call slow. And I do believe taking the shrubs out, taking and just one type of vegetation around it would decrease maintenance costs. Um, I do like the idea of approaching them and seeing if there's like a native alternative. Um, I would like to see that. Um, I'll make sure to ask him and whether it's a con a constraint or not moving forward. Um, I'll definitely do that. Either way, I think it's a good idea. Thank you. Quick clarification. Absolutely. Um, my condition was not intended to keep the shrubs that are there just provide some lower vegetation. The ones that are there obviously problematic. So, in addition to the trees.

Yeah, that was that was the intent. And may I ask Christian, I'm looking at the the mockup. So, I'm guessing it's just to provide a little bit more contrast and variety in that space to cover the wall a little bit more, make it a little bit less stark.

Yeah. Again, it was a function of, you know, the the trees are going to be good, I think, from a distance, but if you're on that sidewalk, you know, once the trees get above eye level, it's just going to be, you know, trunks and not much else. And that is a the right of way there is relatively uh average for all of Penman, but the distance between the end of the rideway to the actual wall is pretty substantial. Um so it seemed like there was an opportunity to put some ground cover and low shrub in there or decorative grass, whatever. Uh and still maintain a pretty good distance from the wall for maintenance. That's why I said, you know, some of the clumping larger native grasses are pretty easy to maintain with a string trimmer. So not really labor intensive. Uh, thank you for that. Um, any other questions from the commission? All right, I will now open the public hearing. I hope it is not too contentious today. Uh, do we have any speaker cards? No speaker cards. I will assume that no one from the audience wishes to speak because there's no one in the audience. She got

Oh,

restroom. That's allowed. Uh, I'll now close the public hearing and bring the item back to the board for discussion. Thank you. All right. Is there a motion? Motion to approve the conditional use uh with bring back the 43 mediumsiz trees and fulfilling the landscaping plan as currently proposed. Is there a second? Second.

All right, we have a second motion. Is uh we have a discussion, correct Christian? Before we vote, you can. Yeah. Any commissioners wish to speak on the motion? Yes. Does that Does your motion in does the motion include um Nick's recommendation to add in three legustrums along the two blank walls as he suggested along with his um I request or condition to ask for native grasses from his proposal?

No, that would be something we'd want to add to the motion if that's what we want to do. My concern, and maybe it's not valid, would be adding those bigger trees along that shorter section where he currently does not have it proposed is where the sidewalk cuts pretty close to the wall. And I assume it was left out of that proposal, those trees at the time, because they would be really close to the sidewalk. I don't know if that's Go ahead.

Yeah. Um the the reason uh those areas are filled in and then not filled in. Uh initially we went out for 25 trees for a cost effective solution. We added the additional u number to get up to 43 um because we were wanting to meet um um city recommendation that all the trees removed we want replaced. And I was like that that sounds fair. That's an oversight. Let's let's do that. So that's where that's where the proposal came from. 43 trees. Um and then the fill was set in such a way the landscape architect put it that way. U so it left those two voided sections symmetrically. Not sure why they he picked those out of anywhere else but I think it's just a landscape design choice based on 43 which is just a odd number to evenly disperse.

Yeah. for the motion maker the the plan now that's where the canopy trees the oak trees are with the shrubbery so there is spacing there it does seem like there's space but not a lot of space um for the gustro the the sidewalk itself is spaced the same from the other outcrops that do have trees presented in that design um that the the gushroom should be able to fit right in there that's the exact same distance that winding sidewalk Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. Is the exact footage off that wall.

So, is there an amendment to or is there would you like to change the motion? Amend. I'd like to amend the motion to approve with condition that the landscape plan is met, including the 43 trees to replace the existing and make added trees in the area where they're not currently included to make it uniform across the entire frontage of Penman Road. Yeah. Would would you consider not adding trees but just distributing them to be a fair compromise?

Absolutely. Yeah. 43 trees distributed so there are no frontage.

Yeah. Dad. Um, We're not here to make sure I I'm inclined to agree. Um my I what I might say is I would I would like to in the interest of taxpayer spending um and expediting the project given that it's our assets that are kind of being you know blocked by being protected um from this project. Um, I might suggest an amendment um to your motion, if you'd accept it, that um might be softer in the language for uh to take back to the landscape. uh architect our feedback that it would be nice to have the full coverage in the void space and to consider any native species um versus solder ground cover. Um, Christians also made an excellent point, I think, about additional shrubbery and grasses. And to these points, I would just say soft conditional language around the distribution of the the legustrums, consideration also of native ground

covers, consideration of the uh the additional grasses or shrubbery if it's budget neutral and timeline neutral would be the the conditions that I would offer to your planning. in in that motion. Um the only thing that that I can't square is that I feel like there's a moment in the future where we look at this and are like what do we what do we think about it? And I feel like that's a future citizens conversation if they wish to improve it and don't think that this project is sufficient. I feel like the citizens can bring that to your attention and this can be revisited for any improvements that need to be made. Um, so that's my feedback. If you want to amend your motion on that point, if not, if you could restate your motion, we'll get a second for it and we can vote on it

through the chair. So, you have a motion on the table that's been seconded that you're discussing. So, if you want to amend the motion, you can make a motion to amend the the initial motion or he can withdraw his motion and make a new emotion. Yep. For clarification. So, however makes the most sense, I guess. Or neither. Whichever one you like.

Okay. Uh, chair. I'd like to withdraw my motion, my previous motion, and make a new motion to approve the approve the conditional use under the conditions that in conjunction with the landscape architect, an approved landscaping plan uh is followed with similar features to what's proposed in front of us today. And that additional considerations would be brought to the landscape architect to consider native plantings and uh have the entire frontage of Pinman Road covered by the minimum of the 43 medium trees. So, may I clarify that it's a it's an approval motion uh with a commitment from the planner to discuss with the landscape architect the redistribution of the trees and the consideration of uh native species uh provided it does not negatively impact budget or timeline.

Correct. That's the motion. cleaner that the second statement was was easier to follow. Yeah. Okay. Do we have a second? As long as everybody understands that motion because it is a little bit tricky. State one more time. Let's get it out here. Can Can you state it out of your because you made the motion and I don't want to take words out of your mouth. Uh motion to approve

the plan per the provided landscaping plan under the condition that it will be considered to use native plantings and disperse the 43 tree cover across the Penman Road frontage as long as there's no adverse impacts to cost uh or maintenance incredible to the applicant and timeline and timeline. Is there a second? Well, yes, there is. Second. Uh, may we have a roll call vote, please? Matthew Fer, yes.

David Doll, yes. John Lionus, yes. Lindsay Hagen, yes. Dean Havoc, yes. Uh, you're approved. Congratulations. Congratulations. That was the Well, that was that was in that was the amendment. No, they went through the motion. That was a new motion. Yeah, they went through and that's that's good. And just for clarification, there is a permit that they are in the process that they pulled. So when we review that, we can take that into consideration when they actually we approve the permit. So perfect. Thank you. All right. Thank you very much.

Uh may we have the planning department's report? making sure we all ironed out. I appreciate your help keeping us on the rails. Uh do we have a planning department's report?

Uh yes. So um your next meeting is February 23rd which uh as decided at the last meeting will be your organizational meeting to elect a chair and vice chair and any other items to consider that are procedural for the board. Um at the last meeting there was a request to have the city attorney present some information on tobacco sales and regulation. Um, I spoke with uh his office. We're trying to work out a time probably March, maybe the second meeting in March, but I will nail that down hopefully before the 23rd. So, I give you an exact date on that. Thank you. All I got. All right. May I have a motion to adjurnn?

So, move a second. Second. We are journ. Thanks everybody.