Affordable Housing Trust - Regular Meeting

It is 7:32 and I will call the December 11th, 2025 meeting of the Affordable Housing Trust to order. Uh we have an agenda that I can pull up here. Okay. Uh so the Do you want to do roll call? Oh yes. Uh roll call. Okay. We have uh a Zoom participant. Uh so uh Colleen here, Dan here, Brian Lin here, Matt here, and Sarah here. All right. Uh cool. So Nicole just joined, too.

And uh Nicole just joined. We just finished roll call, so you didn't Nicole's here.

All right. So, the uh first item on the agenda uh recap of the November 6 affordable housing forum. Um, and we have some uh uh answers to the questions that were raised um that uh I believe Colleen put together for us. Thank you, Colleen. Um, and yeah, is there any I guess we can kind of just have a discussion of any any kind of feedback or learnings or anything people want to discuss? And

were we anticipating this just be for discussion sake for ourselves or were we planning on publishing this anywhere?

Well, it is published in the packet. Yeah. Um, but I, you know, I just think there were a lot of good questions that were asked and I went through and I wrote them all down and figured have a document somewhere for people to reference and for us to to send people to. And um, I mean, people are going to have more questions than this, but at least it answers that. And maybe something going forward at next forum, we'll always make sure we put something out with the questions and the answers. I I don't know. Yeah. Did we want to go look at them or add any input or did you guys have any questions about any of them or was it

No, I thought it was um a great um you know overall answering the questions and a good you know thing for us to have like you said for future forums or just even kind of like a rolling um document that we kind of keep updated especially with the amount of cash that we have in the trust and things like that. Yeah. One thought I had seeing the um the reference to the the money we get in from um from CPC. Mhm.

We talk about it being 10% of what Grafton gets in CPA funds each year. Um, if this was going to be published somewhere, it says you might want to just qualify that as approximately or something because I think, correct me if I'm wrong, what we get in at spring, what gets uh appropriated or allocated to us, transferred to us in Springtown meeting is an estimate of the coming year, right? So, and I think just from watching the meetings and and seeing Ken's treasury reports, seems like those estimates are fairly conservative. So, I wonder if we ever compared that estimated number that we get um allocated at Springtown meeting to what the town actually pulls in for a given year in CPA funds, we might be kind of shortch changing ourselves if the goal is 10%. um with those estimates being as conservative as they tend to be. Um

um when I hear you word it like that, it's making me second guess what I think I know right now. So I'm going to want to double check, but I think it has to be 10%. I don't think it can be less than that. That's the law. So even if the if it was nodding, oh yeah, so we're I don't think we're being shortch changed. Um and I think the reason we're getting it earlier now is just so that we have access to it. that was the shift. So, um it's an overall good thing, but I don't think um yeah, I don't think it's a

So, like when one year rolls into the next, does it So, again, if it is upfront, it it can only be an estimate. Um so, is the following year's grant kind of a combination of kind of a true up to actual for the current year and the estimate for for next year? I don't want to misspeak because we just changed it in the last like year or two where we we did that double payment. So before it used to be what it was and then we got it in in the fall, but now when we doubled up. So I I want to double check before I say something incorrect. Yeah. And I can I can go back to the last couple cycles and try to make the math work. Um

but I know for for a fact we're not getting short change. We can definitely eliminate that here. Um, but as far as the estimate to actuals and the It's a good question and I want to clear it up. I just don't want to misspeak. Sure. Yeah. I think um generally uh maybe like having a financial report on hand might be good for the next one so that we can sort of demonstrate the sort of financial controls. Yeah. That we have. Um, so because they're, you know, that that's a common question that comes up around the trust is how we manage funds.

So I think that's would be a really good one to have in hand. Um, maybe even a slide on it to just kind of go through it and tell people, you know, there was some concern about financial controls. Um, and you know, I think you answered the question kind of a little bit on the hot seat um, in the moment, but it'd be good to just have something prepared, I think, to answer that question, right? Because it's a good question and it's not completely straightforward to sort of explain in 30 seconds while you're trying to manage a forum and all that other stuff. So, might be a good good thing to just Yeah. have like a a one page on or something like that.

And this looks familiar. I'm guessing you and I are probably pinging Mary Lauria with similar questions. Yes. I didn't realize that she was out this week, so I was Oh, really? Yeah. And she got that to me this week. So, that's that's fresh uh up to-date info right there. Got it. Thank you, Mary, for being awesome.

Yeah, she's awesome. But I don't to to your point though I don't know how to should we just do our own you know treasury report kind of like CPC and just post that each meeting so every month that is in the packet you know what I mean like we don't have to reinvent the wheel we don't have to over complicate it and just make that a a a packet item and everybody gets it everybody has it and it's easy enough for her to generate once a month and then we'll put it in packet. Does that seem to satisfy everything and it's an easy solution without complicating it?

Overall, it seems like there's extremely obviously we haven't had any um GSX draws in a while, but you know, for year to date, I mean, we're in December, and year to date, all we've got for expenses are some allocated payroll. Um, and all we've got for income is interest, income, and the um and the CPC transfer. Um, so it's, you know, it wouldn't be there wouldn't be a lot to it. Um, but yeah, it'd be easy enough to throw something together that could get thrown in the packet and the GSX withdrawals are all in their own little, you know, nested area to go review and everything like that, too. So, yeah. Yeah. I think everybody likes that. That's an easy

a good idea. Yeah, I like that idea. I can put a tab on your web page for them to start collecting all these, too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to put them in the packet, but if you want to just be able to look at all of them at once in one place. Yeah. Because CPC ended up doing that too a couple years back where all the treasur you made that happened too. I think when we you put all the old ones up. That's very helpful to be able to go back and look at. So

yeah, I like that this idea because it's not just I mean I I also like the idea of having, you know, some something more on hand for the next workshop uh or forum or whatever we're calling it. Uh, but I really like the having it every meeting in the packet because then like it's not just responding to somebody asking a question at the forum. It's also anyone who wants to, you know, pay attention to our meeting for the first time can see it. Yeah. You know, the current up-to-date stuff, too. So, I like that. Yeah.

And, um, do we publish the, um, audit information? That might be a good one too to just put up on the on the website. So the town audit gets put somewhere but and that's what it's you know encompassed in but just be good to link to it. Yeah. And just make make a note that you know ours is encapsul encapsulated in theirs. Is the town audit like posted on the website somewhere?

Yeah, I know it is. I've gone back a few years. I don't know timing wise how soon they get done. I don't think, you know, it seems like it'd probably be still fairly early for the audit for last year to be done yet, but u but I know at least prior years are are up on the website. Um probably under the accountants page. Can't remember where I'd seen them. Yeah, it's definitely up there. Yeah.

Cool. While we're on the topic of money, the only other kind of footnote to um to seeing the the amount of cash that that the trust currently has on hand, um I pulled together the number that we currently have as unpaid under the grant agreement. So, total grant agreement to GSX was 1.8 million. We've paid out um just shy of 1.1 million. So, there'd be about 725,000 left. that theoretically is kind of um spoken for at this point. So after that, our kind of net available cash or so would be just over 900,000. Perfect.

Which would be close to I think in the in the forum I think we mentioned, you know, having about a million dollars and it's pretty close to that number if you back out what's already been committed to GSX. Perfect. All right. So, I thought it was a good form. You know, it's first first try, I think. Very well attended. It was really good attendance. I saw quite a few faces that I didn't recognize, which I took to be a really good sign. Um, I thought our speakers were outstanding. Yes.

Um, yeah, the content was pretty solid. um feel like we had pretty good answers to questions and you know it was reasonably u interactive with people asking questions and whatnot. So it wasn't just a kind of a dog and pony show. It really was felt a little bit more collaborative and um like we there was a real opportunity for people to get to know what the trust was doing and how we operate and whatnot. I liked it. Um, if I had one thing to do, I might um spend just a little bit of time on uh characterizing some of our projects and just just a very light touch. Um because we did such a variety of things between between the um you know rental assistance and 25 Worcester with uh you know some uh elder care or elder housing. um the grant um over on you know Lton Street and all that. Um we're working a lot of a pretty wide variety of different things. Um and uh I don't know. I think I would just spend a little bit of time highlighting the breadth of projects that we do. We've got a lot going on right now.

Yep. Yeah. I I think kind of going inhand with that is um something something we would highlight along with that is that the affordable housing trust is not actually involved in every single affordable housing uh development in the town. And I feel like that's that's something that people don't necessarily know or kind of make assumptions about. So yeah, I feel like that would be that would kind of go along with that. you know, talk about Yeah. things we're not involved in that are happening uh based on, you know, the based on 40B based on uh zoning that the planning board and town meeting have done. Yeah. Sure.

Should we should we try to um organize another forum in the spring to kind of delve into some of these more detailed conversations? I like that idea. Yeah. Bring bring in our chapa speaker.

Yep. The one more thing I'd like to to see at our next forum is I'd like to see the trust sitting together if that if that means like a table like a lot of the times when the life board we're doing forums down at the library. we were all I don't know if we need to sit in the front and look down at everybody. We need to be together and I think we need to um each take ownership on a topic if it's asked because I I I did feel like when we were being asked these questions we all made eye contact and then it was like okay I think I just was sitting closest and that's how it happened whereas um we could be more collaborative about it. We all know the answers we can all uh you know do it.

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it would also kind of be a little bit more of a kind of pulled together appearance than, you know, Colleen running around. Great. I mean, thank you. Thank you for worked out stepping up and doing that, but yeah, it was you can tighten that up a little bit. people I think people who are you know the faces we didn't recognize might also not recognize us and might not have known right the way that Colleen was speaking as a trust member right exactly some names

we like surprisingly did have several attendees that were not Grafton residents they were coming from other towns to see you know what we were doing to promote affordable housing. So, I thought that was really interesting. The one gentleman that I spoke to was um from Milford. Cool.

Yeah, I had the same experience, too. I spoke to a few people from other towns that were interested in the speaker. They had heard about it and then I guess somehow it was they're involved in their town. Someone was from Sutton. Um I'm trying to remember someone else came from pretty far away and they were like well this is recommended that I come to this to learn about yeah affordable housing in my community. So they yeah which was great. So that's probably a good takeaway. Um you know we could pretty easily connect to other housing trusts in the area to promote ours. Did we did? Yeah. So that's what my question was. Were they from other affordable housing trusts? Do we know that

the gentleman that I spoke to from Milford came specifically to this because Milford apparently doesn't have an affordable housing trust. So they're they're interested in starting one. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Yeah. Shrewsbury uh just a few years ago uh adopted uh the CPA and you know created their own CPC. So um I think they also created an affordable housing trust either with that or shortly after that. So yeah there uh I I know one of the people there. So I was talking to him and he was uh he was saying they're uh just excited to to get things started and wanted to hear ideas. So that was cool. One thing I guess to keep in mind um as we're planning an event, you know, if it's going to be if we're going to seek a wider audience, um you might want to put some thought into content so that it's not as graft and focused. Um I think invariably I think Q&A is going to go whichever direction that the public takes Q&A and and that could end up being more local if there's a more local crowd. But um this is one piece that you know I wouldn't want somebody coming from a distance thinking it's going to be kind of more broad and then have most of the content be graftentric.

Um it's balance.

Yeah. we could just set that expectation in advance because I mean I think regardless it is interesting to hear about these projects just like that woman presenting you know she shared a variety of different projects of you know a school being turned into affordable housing and things like that in all different towns. So I think it's fine to talk about Grafton. It would actually be interesting to just do an interactive poll at the start and just say hey who's from Grafton? Who's from a neighboring town? Who's on an affordable housing trust? Who's this? just raise your hand and we can just kind of get the makeup of the group or we can even collect that on the Eventbrite if we do that. That way we'll know in advance. We can just say what organization or what town are you from? Um and then we'll have an idea going into it.

Makes sense. And you know, look, uh the affordable housing is sort of it's so much about the art of the possible, right? How can we fund housing production? Um and you know Grafton if you look at what we're doing it's these all the lots of different examples there's a land donation there's a a grant program that we have you know there's a lip so there's there's all sorts of different mechanisms that we've used uh you know the the Adams Road uh donation from the town and you know so I think you know although it's local it's also a good example of the variety of different things that you know there's no single A it really is it's just kind of being open to so many different possibilities of how you can do it and it's more of like a an attitude that a town adopts that it's going to think about that on a consistent basis so when those opportunities come along um they can be they can be leveraged.

Fiona have a hand raised.

Yeah. So I one of the pieces of feedback that I heard from Shellyley was of MHP was that the the forum was fantastic but the um yeah the content was like very specific. So it was just kind of interesting to um hear her hear her take on it. She's like oh she's like I would have become more prepared with like more technicalbased questions. I was like you know that's just kind of how how things go especially if you're having like a lot of like local engagement. And I did tell her like Grafton is a very well-informed community and and you know has a lot of local concerns that they you know that through these types of forums. But yeah, she said it was really really great. But yeah, she was definitely like wow. Yeah, people know and want to know. Um and uh yeah, this was just interesting. I wonder if for our next one we want to make it like a like a project focused forum and we can talk about the specific projects in Grafton and also talk about projects Grafton hasn't considered that other communities have done and kind of make it sort of focus on that as a theme. I feel like that that would also that would kind of make it very relevant to Grafton, you know, by by kind of categorizing things as here's what we're doing or have done and here are things that we could do that other towns are doing and at the same time also be very valuable to other communities because it's a a nice list of opportunities they could use.

Yeah. There were a few things from the Q&A um you know Bill McCuster's question about you know the um down payment assistance and stuff like that that we haven't done that you know we could flush out internally beforehand but you know could have could be good subject matter to to kind of kick out to a community group too um to you know if we end up you know whichever way the board uh or the trust ends up feeling about it um you know share those thoughts with with the public and see if there's another side that we're not maybe appreciating. But

I was also thinking um about the Mass Ready Act, how how far along that is. You know, I'm I'm certainly not following it, so I don't know how far along in the process that is, but my takeaway from that was it was it was a BP piece of documentation and that that could probably host its own night um to bring clarity to that if it if it passes and things like that. So yeah, that'll shake things up significantly. That's going to be that's something big.

Yeah, I think they're still gathering there. Well, I'm actually not sure if the comment period is closed and the roll out will take will take a while and I've been kind of following it, but I definitely could have been way more prepared for that question um because I did kind of know some things, but I knew it was kind of far down the line. So, I wasn't as ready. But yeah, that will it'll be structured like a comp like a 40B comp permit almost. And that could be like a joint forum too hosted by us and you know other stakeholders that are going to be Yeah. Concom. Yep.

You know, bunch of Yeah, because a lot of different land use boards are going to be affected by it. Um, and have their processes modified. So, it'll be Yeah, that'll be an interesting um discussion item. Do you know uh Oh, I just found it. Uh so on the uh legislature website uh oh reported favorably out of committee 10 days ago in the Senate. So this thing is moving along. Mhm.

The Yeah, the state legislature is uh tricky place. Uh so whether something actually has support from leadership is like a huge factor and whether it'll actually get done and it looks like this uh this may have uh support. I mean, it's from the governor, but the things the governor wants to do don't always have support from leadership. So, this one looks like it's it's coming along.

Yeah, I I definitely think that um it'll uh it'll definitely move through faster than some former legislation. I think a lot of people seem to be on board. There's like some concerns about the technicalities and the roll out, but that's to be expected from any anything that's similar to this like and big, you know, that encompasses a lot of different parties. So, I'd like to do another like a deeper dive into ADUs too, like Grafton specific ADUs and and I don't know, I saw on social media somebody asking about the process in Grafton specifically and how that's been going. Um,

I don't know if that's necessarily affordable housing specific, but it is housing and you know that's what we're here to advocate for and affordable housing. So, yeah, I mean they can be deed restricted. Yeah. Yep.

And can be affordable units. Um, but yeah, I mean it's adding to the housing stock and more diversity in housing and kind of that missing middle that every community is trying to get further toward. So yeah, I I agree. I mean, and I think a lot of and I just to your point, Colleen, we yeah, a lot of people are now that, you know, um, Grafton has f, you know, finalized at least like a a standard bylaw. And a lot of other central mass communities, people are definitely getting more interested, wanting to know what how much money do I need to kind of put up to make this happen, what are the regulations I need to work around, like how does the permitting work, etc., etc. So, yeah, that could be a good topic as well. I've seen new stories already out with um prefab um units out there that you know Massachusetts specific and they're booking out 18 months just to in their backyards or front yards wherever.

Um I think I sent that to you Matt at one point. That was a good one. Yeah, absolutely. I could just come up with ideas all night. That's not why we're here though. All good ideas. Any other thoughts on the um uh the forum? No, just looking forward to the next one. That was was a good time. Cool.

And maybe we can regroup in the next couple of meetings and talk strategy for speakers and such. Um there's a couple of people I had reached out to a few for this past forum and then you know we only went with two cuz we wanted to make sure we had some time. So but I did some of those speakers like oh you know if you need us in the future we're available. So kind of already have speakers in a way teed up which is nice. Great.

All right. Uh so next on the agenda we have uh the Massachusetts General Law Chapter 59 section 50 uh which is regarding tax exemption for rental owners who uh rent their who basically voluntarily rent their units out at an affordable rate to a qualified you know income family. Um, and uh, so this is, I think, a relatively new, uh, law. Um, and, uh, yeah, Matt reached out, I guess, uh, heard about it at a affordable housing forum and, uh, was, uh, wanted to get it on our radar and, uh,

yeah, I don't know if it's feasible for Grafton. You know, you've got to work through whether it makes sense and yeah, all of that. how, you know, how it would impact taxes and all that kind of stuff. But it's seemed like a good opportunity to explore, you know, just another way to incentivize affordable housing. So, um, seemed like something that the trust might want to talk about and just have, um, Fiona, you know, talk through with staff and try to figure out logistically, is this something that could actually be implemented? And you know obviously it's a long process to implement that sort of to adopt Mass General law but

um it can be done. So that's how that's how I was thinking about it.

Great. Yeah, it seems pretty new from my research of B. I think Boston is in the process of adopting this. And I looked and I saw that Brookline was a community that was um had proposed um some modifications to their um regulations to adopt. And then I I think that the it didn't they wanted to study it further. I don't know if they're I can't recall um from the paperwork if they were assembling a kind of like study committee to kind of evaluate. I did speak to Tammy about it briefly. Um, and you know, as as Matt said, I think it's just, you know, we'll have to kind of um I need to talk through with her a little bit more in depth because she was first a little bit concerned about um the money coming out of she has like an overlay account and whatever um you know, funding that would need to be kind of recouped that was lost would have to come out of that. and then kind of the considerations of kind of going into an override, what that would look like. And we just really want to make sure when we're doing it that we're getting, you know, a lot of buy in and doing a lot of outreach, kind of talking to the board of assessors, talking to the select board, talking to all the parties that will, you know, ultimately, you know, FinCom, everyone, you know, who will who will need to discuss what to put on the warrant when we get to that point. Um, if we do want to get to that point. Um, I mean, when you break down the numbers, um, you know, it's a size, you know, it's it's a good amount of of, um, units that this could potentially apply to, but, I don't think it's an an overwhelming number that would um, ring alarm bells with any with FINCOM or anything. But yeah, I just, you know, it needs a vote, a town meeting vote and a vote of the legislature. Um, and it seems like it's similar in a

lot of ways to kind of the senior circuit breaker. Um, so that's what Tammy had kind of mentioned. So it's kind of operates in in a similar manner at least fundamentally to that which Grafton does and a lot of communities do. Um, so you know, I think it's just let's, you know, I think MHP has that technical assistance program that I know we'll kind of be talking about later on in this meeting. So maybe we can engage like somebody from MHP cuz they seem to be um kind of leading the charge and kind of getting the word out about this and maybe have, you know, I can set up a call with them and just say like, hey, there's some initial concerns that were flagged by our assessor. this is the numbers that we're looking at in Grafton like and just can can you just help us kind of understand the feasibility of implementing this and are there other what type of outreach are communities doing to make sure that you know the communities on board like should we have like a separate you know I guess like an analysis done like I'm kind of still trying to figure that out sometimes these things sometimes these things are studied to death but um you know might be anything that kind of touches taxes. I would always want to kind of make sure that we're um you know doing doing the outreach that we need to um because we just don't want to get do all the work at the town meeting and then you know whatever um have have kind of people hearing about it for the first time and saying oh my gosh this is going to raise my my property taxes and please vote no or You know, so that's kind of my initial thoughts.

Can I ask a question? So if if let's say we engage all the stakeholders, we decide to move forward, is this something we then customize for here in Grafton that if if if a property owner chooses to do this, we we make them lock in for two years or we you know, like what like how do you manage something like this? Yeah, it's a great question. Oh, I don't I don't think that there are answers yet because it hasn't actually been implemented and you can't it's not going to impact the deed at all. So, let's say someone comes in and says, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And then they sell their house six months later. Like, how do you what is something like this? So, that's what's getting flushed out right now.

That's part of it. Yeah. Who's going to monitor it? I mean, that there has to be a monitoring agent. So, who's going to do that? um you know um on the select board we've talked once or twice about doing um or elders in the community um assistance with um accessibility improvements and that's sort of the kind of along the lines of this like what happens if they sell their home 6 months later. So you have to have some sort of mechanism in there where the town's getting enough benefit from that, you know, tax um exemption

um and that it's not being taken advantage of and you know that sort of thing. So um yeah, I mean that's the the who we would um offer it to I think is um is a is a question that I would have to include it. Would it be to anybody? would we want to target it only developments of a certain size or um so how you know the town's intentions I think would want to be reflected in um the language of the board so okay um yeah and and I'm I'm unclear on the degree of flexibility that local municipalities have um

right

and how much tailoring you can you can do and yeah I would be interested to talk to somebody at the state or MHP further about th that exact scenario like you know hey like how are we making sure there's contingencies in place so that you know this this continues or what's the opt out process like does the town have any sort of involvement in that who who's monitoring um are the landlords who are taking advantage of the um the program, are they going to be handling income vetting and all of that? Cuz that can be a lot of um leg work that I think sometimes people might not be prepared for. And like if the you know the that kind of falls through the cracks or is that like more of like a town staff person um handles that like yeah, I need to flush out a lot of those specifics. We're not targeting this for May, right?

No, this is something that I caught in a chat in a conference and I said that looks like a great opportunity, so let's look into it. And it yeah, I sort of just texted Dan and asked to add it to the agenda. Okay. So, I don't think there's any urgency whatsoever. Um, but yeah, so it's really we're just at the very very early stages of discussing it. So, no, I wouldn't imagine if we could that'd be great, but feels like it's a lot. I have a feeling we're going to have a lot going on this spring. So, you think what's just saying

might be Yeah, might be busy in grafted. Um, but yeah, I I don't see any mention in here of town meeting or the legislative body. I think I mean well at the bottom the very last thing is that a municipality may adopt ordinances or bylaws to implement this section. So that would be town meeting. Mhm. Mhm.

But to adopt it would be the select board. So uh in addition to getting this to town meeting like we wouldn't just put this on the warrant and then you know sell to town meeting. We' all we also need to have the select board to actually you know vote for it. Um, and but yeah, there's a lot of details that need to be worked out. It's one of those things where I feel like the the numbers have to be carefully balanced that where um it's actually to the benefit of the property owner to do it. Otherwise, no one would do it. But also,

it can't be like this massive giveaway to the property owners. It's like it needs to be we want to balance it so that there's there's mutual benefit. Absolutely. For everybody who agrees that affordable housing is a good thing, then there's mutual benefit. For people who don't want affordable housing, they might not uh support it.

So, I have a question. Do is there we know how many um rental units there are in Grafton, but when it says owner rental, I guess I picture that as like an individual versus a a developer. Maybe that's just I'm reading into it, but is there a way to get that breakdown of what that the rental units are in Grafton currently? Like we have this many that are owned by a developer and this many like this individual has this many and and just get like a better breakdown. So we can start crafting our thoughts on how we might want to craft this down the line like a better breakdown of it all. Yeah, that should be uh relative relatively easy to kind of cross reference like just using the SHI and running like quick numbers like just sorting um you know there was roughly 415 affordable units uh affordable rental units on the SHI um and kind of just using that number and then going through and yeah cross referencing with the assessor's records of the ownership ship and and yeah, who fall who falls under the criteria to to qu potentially qualify for the the program, the good landlord tax abatement program, I think is how they a lot.

So, you said 415 rental units are already affordable. So, we're looking at rental units that aren't yet affordable because they'll become affordable through this process, right? Mhm. And if if this can apply to um you know I mean I think that this could apply to existing you know obviously new new development but also existing you know if any landlord wants to take advantage um I think that they they should be able to I didn't see anything um from just my my I didn't you know I I could have done I should have done more research on it But I it I didn't see anything um in what I did see that uh says otherwise.

Yeah, that that was a question that I had too going through I started off thinking this was like somebody that lives in one side of a duplex and they're renting out the other or that sort of thing. Yeah. Then going through when it gets down to how the amounts could get calculated and it's talking about square footage of units and that sort of thing, it's like, well, heck, if if this if this would apply right off the bat to existing developments, there's there's no benefit to us. We're not getting extra units from that. So, it's like, is there a way that this could be structured so that it's only available to new units? um as an incentive um

units that are not deed restricted as affordable units that are not yeah already affordable right because I mean if it's an existing you know market rate unit like that's something to be that would be fair game y but yeah if they're if they're already deed restricted like that's you know presumably they've gotten some kind of benefit in the past from that. Yeah. Um so yeah that makes sense

especially because I'm think it's like you know when a lot of those larger developments come before the the approval authority you know they might be making a case using economics and like this is the the increase in the tax base that's going to come out of you know this development and it's like well now if we start giving discounts on their taxes for the affordable units um it's like well that that needed a haircut you know way back when but Um,

yeah. And that's definitely one of the concerns I think that was initially raised by the assessor of like could see people having concerns about that. So yeah, I definitely um need to study it more. I honestly think that yeah, that just connecting with somebody with MHP um is probably my best bet at this point just cuz they seem to be um the most knowledgeable and I think they're working directly with communities that are trying to do this. Yep.

Cool. Dan, just before um in the packet just before this item, there was a um a form for an AO report from the trust to to CPC. I didn't know which if that was part of the um the forum um breakdown or if this was part of something else. Um didn't want to skip over that and see if there was anything that needed to be discussed on that from the packet. I just put it in the forum breakdown because I figured you guys would be talking about your financial reporting when you

Okay. Yeah. I was going to offer if that's something that we need to get off to to CPC that that hasn't been done yet, I'd be happy to draft something for for the next meeting for the prior fiscal year, but I think yeah, the more information we send to CPC, the happier they are. Just send them as much and as often as you can. Have we typically done this sort of reporting or have they generally just assumed for the reporting that they have to do that everything they give us is, you know, for a qualified project and kind of move on from there. That's a depend who you ask question. Um I know we're supposed to do it and so I think let's just do it. it.

Yep. Yeah. I saw that form um uh it crossed my path and I I was just thinking about the the point that was brought up at the forum and I said, "Oh, hey, this is a this seems to be kind of a short and sweet form that kind of ticks all the boxes and it's and and it's vetted by, you know, an accredited institution that developed it." And I just thought it was like, hey, you know, this might be a good idea for the trust to kind of consider using going forward. Um, you know, yeah, it keeps it short and sweet.

Yeah, cuz I guess I was like trying to understand because I feel like that that question in particular at the forum, it was, you know, it was a good one. Um, but yeah, the level of of reporting that people are asking for versus what's required is I feel like sometimes that can get like kind of lost in translation. And I think that that the form that's in the packet does a good job of kind of summarizing what the trust is doing in compliance with with the laws and what we're actually, you know, supposed to be reporting on instead of having to like dish out pages and pages of like an, you know, the town audit, for example. like this is a better way to do it.

But to be fair, we're supposed to be doing our own individual audit and it costs a lot of money and we that's hopefully the charter review can kind of tweak that a little bit for us, but it's it's charter, not the bylaw, right? I think it's in the bylaw. Okay. Um but when we were going through the bylaw update, we left it in because that's what's in the um charter, the declaration of trust. Okay.

So, we left those two aligned. Um and I think if we wanted to change it in one place, we should probably change it in both. I don't know what how burdensome a process it would be to get the declaration of trust updated. It's a good good question for Yeah, I'm I don't know if that's a vote of I mean Kathleen would be the perfect person to kind of vet vet it um as well as you know myself and the applicable staff, but I don't know if that's just a uh it's obviously going to be a vote of the trust, but if anyone else needs to take a vote on it,

the I don't know what the exact wording is in the declaration of trust. But in the state law uh that sets up affordable housing trusts uh which I just pulled up uh it says the books and records of the trust shall be audited annually by an independent auditor or by an independent auditor in ex in accordance with accepted accounting practices. So, if it's if having the town audit the trust is considered independent, then I think we're good. Um, you just scan them, right? Okay. Yeah. So, that it's they're independent. Yeah. It's

so if it's included in that, that as far as I understand law, uh, that it sounds like that would work. Yeah. And the Declaration of Trust language is similar. Exactly the same. Yeah. Okay. as you read it, I followed along. So, yeah, I mean, if I in my opinion, I feel like this is clear and if anybody wants to, you know, uh, disagree with that, I then at that point, we could ask Kathleen for an opinion on it and get the official council. Yeah. This isn't something done in house. Yeah. Yeah. It's not it's not Mary, right? That's right.

And at the end of the day, like I say, you know, outside of the the GSX grant agreement, which we've got all that support out there, um there isn't a ton of activity. So, I think if we start getting in a cadence of of doing more robust financial disclosure and and just getting information out there, um you know, I think it just lend naturally to to fewer questions or maybe more confidence. But yeah, one question that will continue to come up because we keep receiving um you know money outside of CPA is is accounting for the CPA dollars and any other funds separately um which historically was not done. So teasing it out is is difficult.

Um the way I decided to start looking at it and you know it was like a me call. We we paid out so much in the GSX grant that it covered the pool D funds and some that we can confidently say what's remaining now is CPA dollars. But as if we start researching other funding mechanisms and bringing what we really need to make sure we're tracking it um separately somehow and it's been proving to be not as easy as it sounds saying um due to software issues and and just general I'm not we're not running the bank account somebody runs the bank account for us. So

and the whole purpose of that separation is transparency. It was 100% transfers, but also there was a change in I don't know if there was a Governor Baker did something and I can't remember if it's a law or not, but I think send the links out. It's all on the coalition website and and it's required to do that and it was required not even starting now. It's to go back and tease it all out, which I don't know. Well, the CPA funds have, you know, restrictions on them that the PY money, for example, doesn't have. So, I mean, it makes sense to,

but we have just a restriction on oursel in general. You know what I mean? Like, all of the things that we would spend money on are going towards advocacy of affordable housing, right? But CPA funds are, I think, a little bit more narrow 100%. But but I think we trump even CPA in the fact that like we wouldn't even do anything other than that. So we're we're completely in line with CPA. We wouldn't spend CPA money on anything that wouldn't

we wouldn't even spend py money on anything that wouldn't be afford because that's not our mission. We what what could we do? But like well for one example we could if we wanted to we could have um housing that is restricted to people uh at or below 90% of area median income. And of course people that would not necessarily count toward the SHI but we could do that but the CPA funds could not be used for that. CPA funds, I'm pretty sure, have to be, if you're going to do something like that, have to be for 80%.

I'd never considered doing it that way, but I guess if that's an that's an example, I guess. Yeah, let's just never do that. Well, no, the the point is though, you want to separate them out because if you've got two funding sources that have different restrictions, right? Regardless of what you're intending on doing, you want to have those funds And at the end of the year, CPC has to report back to the state how any CPA dollars went. So that's that's a big issue for them is to make sure that we're Makes sense, right?

And there's been times where they give us our 10% and then we still request more money, you know, the housing production plan. And so that is technically out of it's not out of our bucket, but that went towards affordable housing and that would needs to get captured and reported somewhere, too. Um, I don't know. I'm not part of the CP3 reporting when when our chair sends it in. So, I'm not totally clear on how the level of detail, but I I have been told a lot that it's necessary and important and and tried really diligently. I know Brian's tried really diligently. I know Mary tried really diligently and we we try. just doesn't seem to always satisfy everybody's I don't know how to make it any more transparent. I really don't. So

yeah, I think might not be a discussion point for tonight, but I think we we probably do want to get to clarity maybe as an agenda item in a future meeting

on what the the approach that I think the trust wants to take as that kind of backwards looking because I actually I I think I'm probably closer to alignment with Dan um in that for things like the GSX agreement I would almost want allocate all of the CPA funds to that first because we know that's a qualified project. We know that checks all the boxes, you know, yada yada yada. And I think that to Matt's point, even though, you know, so anything that doesn't come from from CPC, we're restricted to anything that a trust can do. anything that does come from CPC now we're gonna play in their sandbox you know in their set of rules which there's going to be a whole lot of overlap between those two sets of rules but I think the non CPC funds is has got to be at least a little bit more flexible because if we can do it there's got to be things that we're you know possibly doing that and I think back to the the verbs that the presenters were talking about um during the presentation in the forum There could be things like even just, you know, if we had expenses for running that forum, that might not check perfectly one of those CPA verbs for the production, creation, um, yada yada yada, of affordable housing, but it's obviously something that's worthwhile that we're more than capable and, you know, authorized to to do. Um, so something like that just if because there could be some gray, it's like, all right, well, let's take that out of the unrestricted, you know, pocket. Um, but but yeah, I think to get to any sort of reporting on where our current buckets sit, I think we need a a form formal decision on um how to view

kind of how we got here. Um, and then yeah, just, you know, move forward from there. Yeah. But yeah, I think that um that law or that change from Baker was what 16 2016 2017. And so I had kind of that in the back of my mind as kind of the starting point. It's like let's see, you know, where our accounts were then

and see if we can bucket, you know, things that are more obviously CPA eligible, you know, expenses that we've had since then in that bucket, you know, to the extent that those get exhausted. Um because another piece, you know, it's not that significant, but um all of the staff payroll time that we get, you know, CPA's got a cap on what you know, they can't be more than 10% of their funds. Well, if we cap the amount that we use to pay to cover salaries for staff and we're getting I forget what the number was. I think it was like 80 some odd thousand was the um was the grant award for this past year. We'd say we wouldn't be able to spend more than $8,000 on staff that comes out of the CPA bucket. Well, through December, I think we're already at seven.

So, like that might be a number that we bump up against. So, there could be I think in our grant agreement we called that out specifically so that we would we would have some flexibility with that, right? I can't remember if it was just 10% or not because we didn't want to have that ever at least. But again, the law I Yeah. But yeah, no, I I agree to your point, but I got so frustrated that I wanted to end my frustration and that is how I ended my But you your points of views are the correct points of views that you we want to have the most flexibility. I guess to me it just is like we're we're spending it all on affordable housing. But

yeah. So, I also just want to kind of say this. I feel like we got into this from the uh the housing forum discussion and how there were questions about finances and I feel like we're maybe getting a little too deep into one topic that's not on the agenda. So, maybe we should uh if we want to go deeper into this, put on our next agenda. Is that do we do we want to do that? All right, let's do it. So, we'll we'll dig deeper uh next time. Um I'm sick of that day.

All right. So, uh All right. Town Planner Report. Uh Fiona, take it away.

Sure. So, um I did check back in about the HPE. Um which I like to say. Um, so I the folks at MH um not MHP, oh no, it is MHP, sorry. They told me that they were Oh gosh, let me get the let me just pull up the Sorry, pull up the email. Um well, while I'm finding that, um the town was awarded a grant for feasibility study for um Fischerville Mill. So, I've been kind of working a lot with the owner of that property to try and get development moving there. Um a lot of different things going on. It's a very complicated site. It's um obviously there's a lot of moving parts. the history of it. Um there's historic designations. There's wetland flood plane. Um there's dirty dirt there. There's the dam. Um there's a lot going on, but and because of the comp complexity of the site, um we thought it would be a good idea, obviously, this has been a town goal for a while, um to try and develop this property into um multif family and mixed use. Um the zoning does um I think at the when the original adoption mixeduse was definitely um desired. Um but yeah, just because it's such a complicated site, it kind of took the same mindset that we had with the High Point lots um in terms of just let's let's study this. Let's get a qualified um consult you know civil engineering group to get out come out here and do a detailed analysis and then that can be used um you know in an RFP um when it's being published for um developers so that they're aware of all the complexities of the site and

hopefully can um just not have as many you know finding things out after the fact. Um so that's we did get awarded a grant through community onetop for that. So, we're working I'm going to be working on an RFP for consult uh consultant services soon. So, excited about that. And then the HPE update was Oh jeez. Amber, do you Oh, no. I found it. Is that that one from Emma? It's from Tuesday morning. Yes, thank you. I've sent like 600 emails since Tuesday morning. Um, that's a personal problem, but Um okay

9:21 a.m.

Thank you. Yes. So um they cont uh contracted with Bowler Engineering who's a very good engineering firm. I was very happy to hear that. Um to start conducting the due diligence work and start developing some concepts for the lots. So that's exciting. Um they're meeting with them um before the holidays. So hopefully uh in the next um you know few weeks and they're going to give us an update um once they have that meeting. So this is kind of this it's not a substantive uh update that I can give you tonight, but things are moving along. I know that we were going to have a sitewalk out there and then I I didn't hear back from them. Um but I think that they're just charging ahead with with Bowler. They handled all the procurement and contracting. the town did not have to do any of that which is very nice. Um so yeah, hopefully have something more concrete um hopefully for the the January meeting. Um and then maybe we can set up um a time to have either somebody from MHP or maybe somebody from Bowler come in and address the trust and kind of talk through what what the trust would like to see on those lots and and um go from there. So it's it's I MHP is very good. Um, I know even when um I'm not talking to them regularly, I know they're doing their thing in the background, so I'm definitely not um not worried about it. Um, I'm happy to relay anything to them, but I think honestly, let's try and get them here for the January meeting and um if if that's okay with the trust, I might propose that.

That sounds awesome. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, let me write that down. Yeah. And then um the I I did uh that technical assistance program. Um I think it's pretty competitive, but it was just if if the trust wanted to take advantage of that, I would happy to submit um an application uh to MHP for um I think we have a lot of complicated um you know, things that we're trying to work through, especially you know, the items that we discussed tonight. and it might just be a good um program to take advantage of if we thought we were competitive and that was something the trust was interested in in doing um so I think that that was in the news the newsletter that they sent out um this month. So let me pull up the language. Yeah. So, it's an intensive technical assistant program. The applications are due on the 22nd of December. Awards to be announced in early January. So, um, you know, any of like especially with like I'm thinking like some of these more like complicated like financial reporting like maybe that's something that they can help us find like a specific auditor or um a a firm that does this type of work or if we wanted to update our you know we were talking about our declaration of trust you know there's I think that this could this could be something that um we could find a use use for this program. We just have to narrow down, I guess, what what we want to focus on if we were to apply.

So, um I just want to just whenever I see an opportunity, um I always just want to make it make it the information available to the trust and if you know we want to move on it or or we want to wait, you know, is there a deadline with that? The 22nd of December. Okay. So, and Shellyley, who was the speaker at the forum that we just had, is the main point of contact. So, I mean, I think we should apply for everything always. Mhm. So,

would it be too early to ask them to start kicking the tires in that rental property tax exemption? could. Yeah, I mean I feel like that could be I'm just looking more into the um I'm just I'm just looking at trying to see what some of the examples were from some of the other communities one community is working toward. Okay. Each community 10 months of assistance um okay advisory sorry um okay so some of it some of it was like technical assistance regarding kind of outreach and prior um prioritizing efforts um working with other um town entities to help understand affordable housing finance and the and the trust future funding allocations that was in conquered. Um there was the Hull affordable housing trust used the program uh to develop a promotional campaign to educate voters about the affordable housing trust bylaw and how they can help um preserve affordable housing in the town. Um they're now shifting their assistance to new to new trust uh new trust members. Okay, that wasn't really helpful. Um yeah, it seems like it's a lot of like education and outreach based assistance.

And how much money are they getting for that? H in 2023 100 100,000 was allocated toward a de development. Um I think it it varies depending on what you're asking for. Um because I'm getting I'm seeing a lot of different figures on the MHP website based on each project. So I don't uh Yeah, I'll I'll forward I'll follow up and instead of uh yeah, I'll for I'll follow up with the um with the award amounts and um maybe confirm with Shelley about how much we can ask for. Do we ask for like a dollar amount? It sounds like it's more about they're providing the the technical assistance directly.

Look at this application.

Yeah. I don't know how Yeah, I'm sorry. I uh I think yeah, I think you're right, Dan, in that it was you apply no cost to the town. they provide the assistance and then um maybe they'll help find help find funding for depending on the initiative or depending on what the trust wants to do cuz yeah, I'm seeing a bunch of different figures here and it's not making a lot of sense to me from my skimming of this So yeah, I mean I Let me copy this link into the Oh, I can't share the link, can I? Amber, there's no like chat. I could share

with 11 days to go and this not being an agenda item. I feel like maybe it's planner report. Well, yeah, we can, you know, is that what you're saying? Can't vote on Yeah. I mean, I don't really I feel like we're What would we ask for is kind of a big question. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, it was kind of more of me, you know, truthfully, I I I saw it and I was like, "Oh, could be a good idea." I think it would be good to

say that stuff to me because I'll just always say yes. Well, and I think that there's, you know, this is a continuing, you know, program. So, it'll be available again um in in in another I think that it's 10 months. So, I think it every year, you know, provided that whatever is funding the the program from MHP, that funding stream is still available in each fiscal year. I think yeah, there's opportunities to to take advantage in in the future um if it's something that the trust wants to do. Yeah, that that's a a quick turnaround. So, I apologize. I think maybe um yeah, it be I think it'd be good to, you know, have this in mind and think of a good project to use for next year. I mean,

it says four communities, which feels small, but also it's probably a small number of communities applying.

Yeah. Yeah. It does seem pretty competitive, but then again, it's like, you know, you read through and like a lot of communities, you know, Grafton was very ahead of the curve in adopting an affordable housing trust in like 2007, and some communities still are evaluating if they want to adopt a trust, which, you know, seems like a no-brainer. So, um yeah, so I think you know um yeah, we can we can revisit this at a future future date, but these types of things when they come up, I'll definitely make them more available sooner instead of 11 days before deadlines are due, but um yeah, just wanted to pass pass. There's always these types of programs around and available. So, we'll just um you know, I'll share them when I find them and try and get ahead of the curve next time. Cool.

It does seem like it definitely is tailored to communities that are um a little bit newer to to this have recently adopted a trust or thinking about doing so. So maybe not um not where Grafton is at. Yeah. Like I'm trying to think of examples of projects that we could ask for, you know, 10 months of technical assistance on and it feels like that it just that sounds like creating a trust, right? Like it sounds or like creating your first, you know, housing production plan or something.

And you've got to partner that grant resource with staff resource to work alongside them. you know, that's not the sort of thing we want to just say, "Yeah, let's go do that." without, you know, Fiona having a chance to think about what how that's going to impact the planning department. It's a big Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, other than um I also I had um this is this was brought up and this comes up every now and then but the you know payment in lie of affordable housing. I think this was mentioned at trust meetings in the past as well. Um I had you know we had a a intern from Worcester State um who was fantastic this fall um and I had her do kind of a a preliminary research report to kind of just like start dipping our toes into um kind of you know what other communities are doing kind of do a case study analysis. she did some interviews and um you know I just thought it was a cool uh work product that she made and wanted to share it and definitely something for the trust to use as a resource if that's it is uh payment in loo um you know with the key takeaway is like if done correctly it can be effective it's kind of like everything but um you know uh but it was definitely something that um you know we wanted to get more information on and I thought it was a great project for her and yeah if this is a an initiative that the trust wants to pursue in the future. Like we at least we have that baseline and then I can kind of you know us take it you know myself and the trust can take it from there. But um I did want to kind of follow up on that and learn a little bit more because I do know about it. But you know hearing it from other communities and she interviewed planners and people who are responsible for kind of managing those payment and lube programs and the the funding sources that come in and I'm just kind of getting their experience with the program if it's actually beneficial if it's actually generating dollars and generating units and if the dollars that it is generating are actually you know that the town then uses to make units if it's done in a timely manner. because that's that's key, too. So, that was another um just kind of deliverable that we had worked on um and a resource for the trust to use. Um and other than that, yeah, I haven't heard much about 25 Worcester

Street. Um their lawyer was going to contact me um to start talking through permitting, but I I haven't heard and followed up a couple of times, but it's been a while. So, I think that they're just kind of still doing their thing. Um, you know, there's a lot of coordination that needs to be done on the on the back end for these types of projects. So, it will, you know, it does take some time, but I can circle back with Andy as well, if you'd like and see kind of where where they're at, maybe have him come in again in a 2026. I mean, I'd love to see him come in definitely next year. Um, and if we can turn the pressure up a little bit on getting updates. Um, you know, we

was a that was a big land donation and, um, I understand that it's in particular this phase of the project is logistically complex, but I want to make sure that we're on his radar and in his thoughts. Wasn't it where he was going to be applying for something that he knew he wasn't going to get? Did that happen yet? Do we even like that? You know, that's a good update. Like, did you apply? Did you get it? And are we going to be round two to get it kind of thing or? Yeah, I do recall that, right? Yeah. Um, yeah, we were off cycle for the funding that he was looking for, right? Yeah. Yeah.

But he was still going to apply anyway because you never know. But most likely we weren't going to get it the first application. It was going to be the second round kind of a thing. Yeah. So yeah, some kind of update be good. Y and that's all I have. I'm happy to answer any questions about anything specific that's going on that I didn't talk about or do we feel like we want to put the payment and loop on our next agenda for more discussion or Yep. Why not?

Yeah. Cool. Uh oh, also that's something I wanted to ask about the um the housing form. Are there any uh and also I doesn't need to be you know answers in this moment. could also like uh uh I guess email me directly to avoid an open means violation, but if there's things that you want to put on the agenda uh that were ideas that were raised uh that you know other towns are doing or something uh we can get those in the agenda too. So cool. Anything else on template report before we move on? I guess this is probably be the only opportunity to bring it up. Um, do we have any updates on anything from GSX or 1727?

Um, yes. Was it an executive session? That's Well, I guess I'll say this. Um, we're going into executive session to discuss uh our negotiation with GSX and I'm guessing to make a decision on Tuesday. So, that is moving along and um I don't obviously don't know how the vote's going to go, but um it seems like the discussions have been moving and um productive, I guess. So think cuz their next extension's in April. I am well aware of that.

Yes. Let's just keep saying it though. Uhhuh. No. Absolutely. And the grant the grant agreement the initial term expires in June. Which can be extended. But I'd like to see a shovel in the ground. Yeah. Yeah. Groundbreaking would be great. So that yeah, I think that's the only update I have there. All right. Uh minutes, any corrections or concerns, etc. about the minutes as presented?

Oh, Brian's got something. Yeah, nothing on 109, but there are a few references to a Ms. Coughlin. um in uh 11. Um who's that? I Who's she? Sorry. When I got your first email with your new name, I'm like, what is this? Oh, right. Is this another one of those fishing emails? What's going on here? Yeah. I was proud of myself because I remembered to do it in like the attendees. The attendees. Yeah. And then when I was actually writing minutes, never thought about it.

I I was in a meeting the other day and I was very tired and I like accidentally said my maiden name and I was like, "Wait, no, it's J. Martino." And it was with a bunch of developers and they were like, "You know your name?" I was like, "Sorry." Yeah, that was fun. All right. Any other corrections? I'll make a motion to approve the um affordable housing trust minutes for October 9th and November 6th as amended during discussion. Second. All right. Motion a second. Uh further discussion hearing none. Uh we'll do a roll call.

You don't have to. Rising attendees dropped off. Oh, okay. Well, do we pick up four? You do. I was watching for that. I was like, nobody leave the room. We can't we can't get below four. No, no more bathroom breaks. A All right. So, I favor. I All right. The uh minutes are approved. And uh do we have a motion to adjurnn? Second. All right. All those in favor? I I we are juned.