Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

All right, let's call the meeting to order. Uh It's 9:02, so good good good start. Um it looks like we have uh three commissioners and two alternates, so we We have No, we have four. Yeah, four. Yeah, four. So, we're good to go. Yeah. But, we need to designate which alternate [snorts] gets vote. Okay. Um that would be Julie would be the Is it Julie's turn or Curly's turn? That's what I We both did last time. [clears throat]

So, it's a toss up. Curly toss up. Yeah, they both did last time. Okay, so So, Who was Who was Who was first time? Who's on first? Julie's on first. So, Julie could only vote after Brett left. So, you could put Julie on. Julie, okay. So, Julie Yeah. You're up. Thank you. All right. Uh Do we have a motion to approve the April 6th meeting minutes? I'll make that motion. Have a second? Second. John seconds. Uh any comments or discussion about the April 6th meeting minutes? No comments. Uh all in favor of approving say I. I. I. Abstain, I wasn't here. Okay, abstention counts. Um do we have any public comments? Any Davison public? All right. Co-chair's report. Uh John, do you Yeah, I have I have a couple items. Um we had spent time with uh House Bill 5508 and adopted and sent off a statement opposing it as it was written and revised in committee. Um it has passed the house, but in further modified form, which I'll describe in a couple sentences in a in a second. Uh I don't know the legislative session ends this week. I don't know whether the Senate will have time to take it up. So, it either will be dead for this term or will pass in the form I'm about to uh outline. Basically, the revision, the parts that are relevant to us, um

take away all the language that we found objectionable and establishes a task force to report by the 1st of next year to consider the feasibility of the changes that we objected to. That's it in a nutshell. So, they will debate um if the bill passes, uh debate whether it's feasible for municipally owned property to be exempt. It's desirable to have some non-binding process for um HDC input. Um

[clears throat]

A significant change there the task as to the task force would be asked to consider uh in place of appeals to not the superior court, not the zoning board of appeals, but a new statewide appeals board. Um And just generally um consider the format for contemporaneously broadcasting hearings. They also would have the discretion to consider any other matters and if uh if it does pass, we can talk about whether we want to have input um on other matters. Over the course of the last few years, we have discovered a few ambiguities in the statute that might be helpful to clarify. So, that's the status of that and we'll know more by Wednesday. And the municipal home properties would be town hall, the the green, and the school the school, the school driveway, side streets, uh fire the fire the firehouse, sidewalks. Right. Um the second item is that I want to report on is uh I I have

[laughter]

sent an email to Tim Griswold, who's chair of the Halls Road Sidewalk Committee, to ask him if it if he could if the committee could designate a liaison to this committee to keep us posted. I I have not heard back. Uh however, in the course of discussions about the bill that I just talked about, um there were some comments that indicated that the state thought it was already exempt from local HDC um requirements. You probably have all noticed that the state installed new uh stop lights in the corner of Halls Road and Lyme Street and no peep from them. So, they just plowed ahead and Halls Road is part of route route one, right? So, it's a state road. And query whether we would have any official say over um the the the sidewalk that's within the district. I do think that the provision of our statute that allows us to comment on sidewalks that are outside the district, but that affect the district would still apply. So, it would make sense still to have um a a liaison with the Halls Road Committee. Um

[snorts] You know, the state just plows ahead. So, I I can't say I regard the the new uh stoplight installation as historic in any sense, but uh there we are. And [clears throat] you know, John, I've noticed in other towns that have those giant poles for the lights, that they're green. They're painted dark green. Uh Maybe they plan to do that? Or I don't Well, it's worth it's worth an inquiry.

Inquiry, yeah. We can Cuz that would be an improvement. Right. Um if you could let let me know after what a couple of the towns just say specifically. Westport and Greenwich. All right. That's all I have. Yeah, I I don't have any additions at this moment. Um So, let's move to 36 Lyme Street. Guys, Davison. Some shingles here for you guys? Happening. I'm David Noe from 360 Design. Um I'm here for 36 Lyme Street. Um So, the owner's asking to uh re-roof their house um going from wood to asphalt. I have a couple pictures here. Um So, you can see here that the um the wood roof is now in disrepair and really needs to be replaced. Um and she's looking to to go towards a It's called a Tamko asphalt shingle in the Weathered Wood. So, this is what she's asking to replace that with. Um And currently as part of this, I'm not sure if if this is if I have to ask that or but some of these um these branches are actually sitting on the roof. So, she was just going to trim those back as need be. Um just to get in there and do the work and keep some of the leaves off. Um it's made maintenance, yeah. There's a tag on the tree to to cut it down. I'm a lawyer.

Okay. That's what I saw on the facing the sidewalk. Look up. And my understanding from the building City or town tree? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um the way the builder described it to me, he was looking They were looking just to trim it up at the um where it hits the shakes. Right. Um and I guess there was some question about the existing railing on site. I can take that off for you. Um this is this existing railing, which I guess didn't not have a CFA originally.

CFA. Um This has been taken down since this picture was taken last week. We noticed. Um Yeah, it I actually No, I thought I was expecting to come in here and ask for that to be added, but I guess she had taken it down, you know, in lieu of this meeting. So, Yeah. As As you know, it is uh important to have CFAs before beginning any any work. Right. Certainly. So, that's sort of the gist. I mean, the main the main goal is to replace these.

Can you have the the house picture back up? Yeah. So, that we can look at that relative to the the the roof. What's the brand of shingles there? So, they're Tamko. Um T A M C I'm sorry, T A M K O. And she's using Weathered Wood Yeah. for the for the color. Any any questions or any other discussion? So, what roof that's on there now? I don't know. Sure. Um I do know there's significant cupping and you can see a lot of discoloration in the existing one. Do you know the age of the house? I do not. The thing is Go ahead. Maybe Martha has the data of the house. Um I can I can see what it says for um on Vision Appraisal, which will be approximate. Is there any other data that's there while she's doing that? Is there any other ongoing consideration of work to the house that's being considered that would that we should look at even though it's not being presented in the CVA, but think about relative to roof or is it simply a roof replacement? Simply Yeah, so the one thing there was the flashing. With the flashing. Everything will be copper for flashing. Right. Um Yeah, [clears throat] that's the that's the full scope of work. Got it. Yeah. Was a new wood roof considered? It was considered, but um due to cost implications, the owner she's she's seeking approval for the asphalt.

I guess that's [clears throat] my big question, yeah. Historic house and the wood roof fits [snorts] a historic house. Right. So, Vision Appraisal says 1900. Which that's like a big ballpark. Hasn't been verified. And that's wood siding wood clapboard siding, yeah. Um have Martha, have we passed uh asphalt shingles in the district? Um for replacement of wood roofs? Is there precedent? I think we did for uh 6 Lime Street at one time. That originally had a wood roof and I believe they replaced it with um Right. And these are um I mean they are shaped like in the format versus a launch. Yeah, this is an architectural Yeah. Um roof. So, you can see there's more definition to it. Um and it has shadow lines. Right.

[clears throat] And high wind resistance, but What's what's the projected life on that? This is a the 50-year. And your warranty, but it's all written down. I mean typically they're like a 40 to 50-year shingle. And it's called weathered wood. For the brand name. Weathered gray wood. So, it was intended to kind of closely match the existing roof now and They Yeah, so it does I mean it does have sort of like that lightish gray with gray speckles in it. Um Which is quite different.

It is I mean it's yeah. Hard to tell in the photos. I don't know if they were held up. I mean there's a lot of green you can see there's like a lot of green and black discoloration now in that roof, but Well, yeah a a shingle roof goes kind of gray unless you clean clean it and and oil it. Oil it, yeah. Yeah, and then this tree as well creates a lot of shade. So, that'll often create some a little bit of mold mold growth,

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It is it's it is it's a question for us. So, it there's been precedent. Obviously, the a wood roof is more appropriate to the house and district than anything. This is probably as good a shingle design as one could get in an asphalt product. So, Did approve standing seam in in the new house that was a departure. Right. That wasn't a change of material. This is a change. But we we suggested wood, suggested slate. Right.

[clears throat]

Well, it's also a question of what what suits the the building and as Russ says we were considering a a new structure. The abstract I don't remember 6 Lime Street. I don't have the data. Right. Visibility from the street. Right. I don't know how it melts with the the the the siding. Right. Yeah, I would have to take some time to investigate that to get all the details. Russ, the Brainard the old Brainard house on the corner. I'm just a little concerned because I feel like we're like the Zoning Board of Appeals that people are coming to us saying I have a hardship financial hardship, but this is a historic district. So, Mhm. I I'm afraid that in time people are going to say, "Well, I can't afford to fix my clapboard. Um can I do vinyl?" And then we'll And you Here, you know, I feel like we have we're taking in all of these financial considerations, but meanwhile we're bound by statute to continue to preserve something like this. Well, and and I will note that the state of Connecticut I think for the the program for um the tax Yeah. program there's a 30% Yes. um availability for a roof uh um If it's wood. If it's if it's wood with wood. Like exactly. Because you're you're preserving the structure, which is what the state is that historic structure and you're in a national registered historic district. So, it would be pretty pretty sure that would be accepted, but I I don't see why it wouldn't. Has that

been considered in in the cuz if it's really a budget consideration, that might be part of the consideration. Yeah, I mean that that is um I mean it was talked about replacing wood, but obviously like like you like we said for budgetary purposes, um they switched to asphalt. Um we I was not aware of um the state the state's option. Right. Um I mean that being said, you know, typically you know, if you're talking $150 for asphalt a square versus 8 or 900 a square for wood. So, I don't know if that 30% is enough to get the client there, but certainly an option. You know, it it's a it's a tough issue as Ed says my understanding is that the ZBA when it considers hardship has a very specific definition of hardship. It does not include financial. And and in a sense we're we're faced with the same issue. Our statutory mandate is to consider suitability for historic purposes. Um So, So, how does that work if there's been a precedent set on another property? Well, that's what I'm saying. I I the the precedent we have no we have no uh

[clears throat] Our consideration is is property by property. That's why I was asking the questions about. I don't I don't know whether there are trees that shield the view. I don't know the the compatibility with the the shingles of the other of the other house. Yeah. Um If I mean that is often part of the Found something.

the the case when people come in that they bring information to show Yeah. comparable comparable properties and build a case as to how a change would still be historic with respect to the newer uh building that Ed was referring to. There are a couple of other instances in the district, not of main houses, but of buildings in that in that style. So, that was part of the the case that they they presented that it was not something brand new for the private district. Um I do know part of this one part of it is definitely the tree and the issues that they were having with mold growth um due to the shade coming off of that tree. Um I don't know if you guys have seen that one, but there's it's pretty big and it does provide a lot of shade to to that portion of the roof, you know, from here over. If it's coming down, that would change. If it's slated to come down. My understanding was they were just going to cut the branches where they're touching the house. So, literally just like so they can get

the city. Oh, the city. That's what you were saying. I walked by there the other day and there was a sign on the tree that says coming down. Coming down. Martha, you had a a comment. Um I did find a case where we uh the HDC approved uh the replacement of a wood shingle roof at 40 Lime Street um with asphalt shingles. CertainTeed architectural shingles uh weathered wood. And when when was that? I think That was in uh September 2013. And that house uh is an older house. It's says 1875 in Vision Appraisal, although again, that's a ballpark figure. David, do you think there I'm hearing the reluctance of the committee to necessarily approve this. Do you think there might be a opportunity to the raise the the Connecticut um tax funding availability Yeah. with your client and see if that might um if possible the C of A could be resubmitted as a wood roof Yeah. versus you know proceeding with the the vote at this point in time. It would it would give you an opportunity cuz we have what? 60 days? Yeah. Yeah, so that

Well, 60 days from when it was submitted. And then it was submitted April. Yeah. 65 April so it's already it's already uh 30 31 days, 30 days. So, when is when is it June meeting? It um And when were they planning to roof? Next week. Next week. Just as like for a little background on It's It's It says It says uh uh Little background on the project. I would have to No. The builder was a friend of mine calls me up and says we're ready to re-roof this house. I was like, wait a minute. You You can't just go re-roof this house. We need to find out if you need approvals or not. Let me Let me call

You're the messenger. Yeah, I'm the messenger. I'm the messenger here. Don't shoot Don't shoot the messenger. So, we obviously applied for the C of A and um Right. And we're here. So, Which is correct. I I actually haven't met the client. I'm working for the builder right now. Right. Okay. So, the June meeting is June 1st. So, that's We have 65 days. Still be within the 65 days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean we can certain I can bring that up with the client. Um We can talk about options. Now, if we are going wood, do we have to come

like. You You You You don't have to come You don't You could submit a like for like form. You don't have to come back, right? Yeah. That's right. So, you So, you would You could still re-roof next week if it's replacing wood for wood for wood. That's No, like for like is Right. exactly like for like. It's not plywood for It would be a wood It would be cedar roof with copper. Yeah, yeah. I mean you can catch it all that. My personal view is I on that house think a wood roof is is historic. Right. Um so, I would urge you to investigate that. Um if you are want to still come in and build the case for asphalt shingles, you have the the numbers of a couple houses where uh previous iterations of this commission have have approved asphalt shingles and it might be helpful for the commission to have pictures of of of them. Uh we can all each drive by and look at them too and see about tree blockage and Okay. And if we choose to do that, do we submit the pictures in advance? I sent them to Martha. Anything in advance would be would be helpful. Okay. I appreciate it.

So, you have two options and and you can proceed uh with a like for like form. Um Yeah. Then there's no there's no It would be no fee. Uh would would he waive the C of A fee if if he were Yeah, it would be returned, right? Well, or is it It goes with the application. Yeah, I guess that's true. I think if you want $40 back, we could arrange that. [laughter] Yeah. That is on the house. Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Uh So, we should move to continue the public hearing. Yeah. I'll I'll Well, are you with Is he withdrawing the C of A?

Not at this point. No, he's it's still within the We need to move to continue it. Yeah. So, I would I would move to continue the public hearing until the June 5th June 1st. June 1st. 1st June 1st. June meeting and you know, the implication is if they do they can go with wood and uh [clears throat]

you just notify us that you're withdrawing the Yes, absolutely. I'll let you know right away. Do we have a second? That's a motion. All in favor I. Thank you very much. Thank you, David. Appreciate your time. Um 52 Lime Street. If there is a second person Good morning. the C of A. I'm signing up for you. Oh, good. Thank you. Great. So, I just want to say thank you to Martha for facilitating all the back and forth emails in the last couple of days. That Martha, not my

Yes, this Martha. Um so, good morning everyone. I think that you guys got a copy of the C of A and then um the pictures that we took. Um So, we're pivoting a little bit. We went out to the front of the I'm going to stand stand here. We went out to the front of the um uh building and I have these lovely These are exactly what they would look like if they were on stone. So, this is what it would look like. As of Sunday, I mailed them. Oh. That's great. I'm so glad. Perfect. You want to pass it? I'll pass it. Yeah, that's awesome. That's really great. Whoever did that, thank you cuz I just didn't even think of copy right up. Is this I want to make sure before we pass that this is accurate in that cuz Yeah, so this is just to get an idea what we when we went out. Right. So, this this is a much better representation. Yeah, that's a much better representation. But just so you're aware of how big the signs are. Like this is the size This is the size. This is exactly what the signs would be.

The The size may be slightly different than that. Yeah, well. And And accurate. But it's pretty close. Yeah, we we went out and took pictures and then he took our pictures and re-framed it for the real thing. So, [clears throat]

So, the advantage of this we think is we're not going to have to one the Garden Club won't have to pay for the stone ideally, which is a great thing for us, right? If we had to, we would, but that's one last thing for us to like hash out the angles, the sizes, things like that. And then also it just kind of goes with the rest of what's over there. Or like as of right now, there's two blank walls. There's like nothing on there. And um I think that these would be a great addition to that whole area. Um additionally, one of our members is going to be in charge of the planters that's out there for the summer. So, they'll be all red, white, and blue and it'll just sort of spruce up the area, I feel like a little bit. Um Yes. So, there are stone planters in front of those. Mhm.

[clears throat] Um I think in the interest of clutter um if the stone planters went away it would reduce the clutter look. Well, the center one is a little bit heavier, but the two side ones

The side can are moved during the year depending on what is um the display the display that the Garden Club puts up. So, Yeah. So, I agree Memorial Day, it it would most likely be red, white, and blue because American Legion and the VFW would appreciate that. Yeah. The center one is a little feel like a little cluttered. I think we would have to try to move that one a little bit, but the but the larger side ones I I feel like add like color to the site. Um we potentially could take one the middle one out. The longer one. Um we also reached out to the VFW and the American Legion and both of those um groups are on board with it. They're welcoming the addition of the sign. I don't want to step on their toes. It's their thing, but they're happy they're they're happy to have it. We have one letter that you guys should have gotten approval so to speak and then we were having another one in the works, but it didn't make it this morning. So and that's from the American Legion. But the they're happy. Was there a letter? I don't recall seeing James I did send it. It was a short email. Yeah. Yeah, I can give you a copy of it. Dick Mason wrote a letter. It's It's just an It's just an email that I printed out cuz it's not like an actual letter letter. We'll pass it around. There were a bunch of emails. Yeah, okay. All right. So I know this isn't exactly what we talked about the last time, but when we got the actual sizing and we actually went out to place them, this just seemed like a better fit. So that is what we are asking approval for today.

[laughter] So Maryanne, I know that you guys have changed the location like three or four times. Yeah. But does American Legion and VFW know that this the latest rendition that you're looking at? Yeah. They approved that.

Mhm. We sent them exactly the same pictures that you guys all are looking at except the one whoever did that mock up, but they also have a picture of what the actual plaques look like. So what were the intentions of these so-called wings on this monument? Is it supposed to be like, you know, soldiers' names in there? I'm just a little concerned that these were there for some other purpose. Yeah. And I agree like I that's why I said before we go forward with this we Sorry, we we need to record it. Let's have one conversation. I wanted to check with them for that exact thing and like why were they going to do something with it names I had the same thought and they they didn't have any feedback on it and they've been there since 1996 I think. So I feel like there's been plenty of time for them to like utilize them, but they didn't say no we're earmarking those for something else. So I don't know what they were intended for.

And the the one that you have the sample there is that the same size that is in other towns that we've seen? Yes, these are the these are the exact same. Not the one in Saybrook. Yeah, not Saybrook. It's on a post. Well, the ones that I've seen and the ones that I've seen in other towns that are on a post this is No. smaller. Yes, it's different. This is a byway marker not a highway marker. Yeah, they're two different things. So what's the one in Old Saybrook then? That's a highway marker. Yeah, that's the highway marker. That's the one we originally wanted out here the really really big ones that go up on the post.

Okay. And then we sort of scaled it down cuz I know that you know, we talked about clutter and things and we compromised sort of to get down to this size. And this is exactly the size. So that would go on one of those wings on the left side. centered. Yes. How was that going to be affixed? So they come with holes and they just get screwed into the granite. So we would obviously have somebody who's done that before not just like my husband or someone. We actually are working with um Oh, Nick Bolton. Thank you, Martha. Who is the one who erected that monument and he was going to help us with the stone out front. Um and you know, supply it at a discounted rate. And so he said if they have to get screwed in and he would help us with that. I guess I have some concerns. I thinking back to the discussion when you were here Mhm. before um there were some comments about the existing flagpole having a a certain elegance uh and uh I wonder how these would would fit with with with that there was some concern about the messages that are right next to each other particularly

same. I know they're not identical. They I'm just trying to recount the comments that were made. I'm I'm wondering if and then there was discussion also about possible placement at the Garden Club little circle near that sign and other other um uh discussion about possible placement near a near a tree. Mhm. Uh there was concern about um whether they might be slanted and a maximum height over the ground. There was concern about the maximum size of the stone on which they would be affixed.

Yeah. So long winded up here's the pitch. Since we're right here I wonder if we could uh have a impromptu site visit and take the signs outside and kind of visually try to assess what they I was actually hoping you would ask that cuz I'm happy to go outside with you guys, but I wasn't sure about the zoom if that was uh available like because if there's people on here that can't actually go out and see it. Right. Well, I don't I don't know how we do that. I don't either. [laughter]

I think there has to be a site site visit. I mean we can't we can't Yeah, but the site a site visit can't is a meeting and it can't be recorded. Right, but that's what you're asking. site visits though for inland wetlands and planning. They go on a white sidewalk. They just take their notes. They take notes. It is part of the official HTC meeting. So you'd have to have a special meeting. Um

I mean if you wanted to go out on your own not as an official Well, no I think it would be at a meeting. Well, we we are having a discussion later on the agenda about scheduling a a special meeting soon about a whole bunch of other items that we never seem have seem to have time to get to. So we could schedule us add that to the special meeting agenda and and this would be heard within a week a week or two. Really you had a comment.

Yeah, I just I'm assuming that the pots that are in front of the stones now would be moved, but would they still be there? They can be moved. Yeah, they're super easy to pick up. I mean we can move them anywhere. But yeah, I think they would still be there because they've been there for so long and they usually have the flowers in them. But the long one the really long one is kind of awkward because right now it covers the bottom where it says dedicated July 4th. It just it doesn't really have a place there. So I feel like that one is sort of could be awkward.

like these would cover up the markers. They they the Duck River Garden Club changes the positioning of those depending on what season it is and what they're planting. Um when we have the wreath for Memorial Day and Veterans Day, the middle planters usually taken away and the side mark side planters if they are you have nothing in them they're put behind. So they're just used they're movable. They're basically temporary in their place. They're not permanent in place. I was just thinking that if they were out there with the signs that makes the whole thing a lot bigger. Well, Duck River Garden Club won't plant anything that makes anything over the signage. They try their best to do a very good job of And they do. landscaping. I I I have one comment. I want to I just go back to your comment about the wings. The wings were designed. They're for a purpose. Um and or else they wouldn't be there. Right? They wouldn't have they wouldn't have designed this. Right. It would have it would have just been the centerpiece. So the question is what is the purpose of the wings? And it may be it's part of the quietness of the design. So I think we should take that into consideration as well is and and maybe even investigate and understand what the original intent was.

intent was to the wing. Uh they're there for a reason. And and it it it could very well be a design reason. It could have been for names. I don't know, but I just wanted to add that in our in our thought and consideration. So what I can do then is I'll reach out to both the VFW and the American Legion and I'll talk with them and then we go to the site meeting. I can kind of let you guys know. Okay. To to hear the the intent Um you know, I can also invite them to the meeting. And it's it would be part of a public meeting. So then you can talk to them specifically and get their thoughts first hand. Okay. And then we can all look at it together and have a conversation.

Could we look at the calendar now and pick a date and approve special meeting and then Can I just say that in honor of 250th on the flagpole there is a sign that is on a wooden plaque. The wooden plaque is falling apart. It was old. It wasn't evidently ever painted or treated with anything or polyurethane whatever, but it's old. It's splintery. And the plaque itself needs to be polished because brass, but it hasn't been taken care of. So we are going to take it off redo the plaque what it's mounted on the same exact size and just put it back up. And that was put up by the American Legion and Mark from the American Legion said to me, "Go, please do it, especially it's terrible looking." That just for our record should have a light-for-light form. A light-for-light form. It's not a It's not a public hearing, but it's just a notice that you're replacing

Are you also Do you also need me to fill out a form that we might repaint the flagpole because it's rusted? painting Okay. I'll do a light-for-light. I have to get upstairs to an interview, so I'm going to step out and I'll see you at the sidewalk. Thank you. Okay. So scheduling Yes. Um why don't you propose a date and then let's see if it So when did you have You said you already had something sort of set up. We're going to under This will push us to have a special meeting on other issues, too. Right. That's right. Um And we want to do it within the next 2 weeks, right? Next week

Well, ideally. What about What about next Monday? Monday's You Monday afternoon, the 11th? Well, I I can't do the mornings, but dead. Give it till about 2:00. Yeah, the afternoon's better. after 2 2 after 2 3 3 work? Does 2:00 2:00 or 3:00 on Monday, the 11th? So how quick do we think the meeting will be? Like I mean, I'm not rushing. I'm just trying to I got to pick my kid up at 3:15. [laughter] Well, let's I mean, are you free right at 2:00? Um or 2:30?

It would be a 30 No more than 30. Okay, so we could do 2:30. I mean, and then I could get over to Mount Auburn by 2:15. That works. Is 2:30 a little late? 2:30 2:30 Okay. And does that Do we have enough time to give notice for that meeting? Yes. All right. So special meeting and then we could continue to meet on other things afterwards.

Yes. Okay, so 2:30 next Monday up around here. Okay. So we're good then? Yes. All right. Hey, it was nice to see you guys again. Sorry we didn't go over This is a This is officially You You referred to it as an amendment. You can't My understanding by statute amend an existing If you I mean, you This is a new C of A. Mhm. Yeah. Right. This is a Okay. So we're the continuation to the special meeting would be uh a continuation of the new of the new C of A

A application. So we need to Do we need to vote? move to continue the hearing to a a site visit to be held on on at 2:30 on a a at at a special meeting to be held at 2:30 on I'll make a motion to

I'll make a motion to move the um 52 Line Street to continue the hearing C of A uh as a continuation of the hearing uh as a site visit uh on Monday May 11th at 2:30 p.m. I'll second. Second. All in favor? I. I. Okay. Okay, I just so real quick so I'm I'm on the same page as everyone. So when we do that, do you guys vote then or do we come back June 1st? Okay, I'm just trying to for my own scheduling like knowing Okay. Perfect. All right. Thank you, everyone. Have a great spring. See you Monday. All right. Um 60 Line Street French doors Okay. They would, by the way. Please have a seat. Okay. What What is there now? Are there existing uh French doors there now?

No doors there at all. There's a window. There was two windows. I mean, this was a department store. It was Walmart's before Walmart's. It was a department store. I And I moved here and it just closed in 1965. You can't take French's antique store Right. But I went in there and there was clothing, there's kitchen goods, everything that Walmart's had, they had it. Two floors. Do you have a photograph of the side of the house right now as is? Uh I don't know if I took a picture or not. Okay. South of the south side

I'm just trying to get an idea of Well, it's uh if you look at it, it's right there, you know. Uh but there's a sidewalk going right to it. So it was originally planned to have a door there. Is there any image on your on the real estate listing? How about How about smart and we have the photos upstairs? Did you locate those? I could take a walk and do it real quick. I could do it if you want to. Do you know where the photos are, Dini? Yes. You can look at them. I don't know. I think the photos are just there. I was trying to get them I don't know. We have a photos. Oh, okay. We're looking it up on the listing. Yeah, it's helpful for us to see that. That is what we're trying two up So one down below So it would be on this side, right? So between that window and the the edge there. Yeah, it's in the center basically the center of the wall. So in here? And there's a walkway. You see that walkway? You can actually

Is this a walkway? Yeah, you see the brick sidewalk. Yeah, okay. Oh, okay, oh okay, got it. So these these shrubs would be all removed? Yes. So are you going to need some additional little bit of walkway to connect No, it's Well, maybe You would still enter here and go Actually it needs a landing stone. There's a great

Okay, that's what I was going to ask, too. Okay. This is what we have. Everybody You should have that. I'll give you that. Well, I don't see that in your packet. Oh, yeah, it is. It is. It's here. It's right Oh, yeah, there's the I've got I've got that. Yes, go ahead. How do the French doors improve the building? the the use of the building Well, it's multi-use building. So I mean Right there, there's no door on that side. You have to go around back. And it cuz like I said, those were just shelving in those days. That So only like one window on the whole side of the building. Does this make it more marketable? It's more of a house type look. Definitely. It connects the the the It connects the building to the garden. Yeah, that makes courtyard. Okay.

[clears throat] that is actually separated with the fence around it. So it actually that basically is kind of isolated and it brings the first floor out into that garden. Into the garden, I see that. That's right. It's not for a main entrance. So would it be centered just to the location, would it be centered on the axis of the circle that's the cross axis?

actually see it going. Yeah, I yeah. So [clears throat] the idea is that it would be Yeah. Would the shrubs in the front to the left of the front window be removed also? Yeah. No. Okay. You're talking You're talking that If you're looking at the building, you're talking the left side where the fence is right here. No, Okay.

Really dark in there. One window out of And once most of that brick work and stuff was done by the Strat's cuz partly historical partly where the houses were shown. I remember about 20 years ago, they were in the alley. No, it's a nice courtyard.

Yeah, we had a beautiful tree there that that uh a uh a beautiful tree that was there. This is the actual door. Let's see here. What door is it? down below farther It can be hard to find a door that's not but Oh, okay. Um one question I've had, you you've labeled it wooden here, but then the description talks about It's wood all the way through, but it's man manufactured inside. frame So it's wooden frame. framed It's what it is. It's It's fabricated wood inside, so it doesn't shrink and swell, but it's covered in a veneer of Douglas fir. Oh, I see. So would it be like this without the side lights, pretty much? Yes.

the Yes, without the side lights, yeah. Going to be green. Oh, okay. Oh, right. Yeah, it's kind of it's the right. It's actually beige. It's the back of the house. Yeah, there's an improvement. Yeah, without the the side lights. lights. Okay. Uh one question, is there is there a light or anything that would go with it or is it we're just adding the door and and then the the brick sidewalk up to the disc- yeah. But I would be I would be surprised if there's not a light there. It has to be historical. Right.

Yeah, obviously. Right. And but that's not part of the CFA at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Um Any other questions or or comments? Does everybody have a good general picture of what the proposed design is? And it's wood French. And the hardware is specified. It says Bright brass, stone pins. A composite bright white compression, white corner seal. White corner seal, uh natural seal. Brush nickel astragals, strike plate. Aluminum bronze sill. So the the the door handles uh Shiny brass. Yeah. Do the bright brass handles. So so a polish Yeah, shiny brass.

Yeah. Hinges and uh the Do you envision a need for a handrail here? No, cuz it's only one step. So you'll have a stone. I think so. I just yeah, probably the cheapest way to go. If you do brick, you got all that labor and I think it will really look attractive. Yeah, sure. stone. Yeah, a 6-ft stone. Keeping in keeping. And and it enters and and I just questioning maybe I missed it. But what is it enter and exit?

Into the big room. The big room. The big room, yeah. As you walk in there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Do we uh any more questions, comments, or a motion? I Just do you foresee the the building uh retaining its commercial use or I don't think we know the answer to that. It is it's both commercial, it's for commercial or residential, but we would like people to be able to envision the whole thing. Well, let me put it this way. Is it um we had an offer from a construction company and then a landscaping company and we rejected both of them for two reasons. One, we didn't think it fit within what we would like to leave as a legacy to Lime Street and two, it we didn't think it would be fair to our neighbors in the back. Yeah. So what we're really trying to do is position it so someone can envision it in terms of as a home uh or envision it kind of as a retail or a commercial um combination that would be consistent with here. I mean, when we with my company, we had six people working here including Katie at the front. And so we were bringing, you know, people in that were um you know, from out of town that were working here every day and then Pat's business with uh her her um uh fashion business and and then my daughter Lily's our daughter Lily's with her clothing line. So what we're try- what we don't want to do is see it turned into like a construction storage site where you know, there's landscaping equipment or something like that. So what we're trying to do is give people the vision of what it could be as uh as opposed to just selling it to anyone.

Is is it is the is it actually zoned commercial residential or is So so So if somebody wanted to make it a residence, there's no uh uh challenges they have with the town to do that. Well, it's it's the whole historic district is zoned residential. It's just that if you have an existing commercial activity, then it's grandfathered in. So the the commercial activities are ongoing now. They you talking about the market?

it out. There it's on the market. It wasn't until that point. Right. Yes. So it it whoever buys it will need to talk to zoning about the fit of a new business with the with the you know, past uses. Right. Um Now, there've been discussions, for example, with the ice cream shop and and somebody wants to come in and do something different. Well, you can't really change from a my understanding the zoning person. You can't change from food service roughly and you can't greatly expand the food service. Right. So it but that's Yeah, we went through all this with you.

it, you sort of give that to the new owners, but they they will have to Yeah, we went through all that when we purchased the building years ago. Yeah. Um because we wanted to use it for we wanted to maintain it so that it could be uh an apartment cuz that's what it was, apartment and the art gallery and then the antique store. Um and then for the use for um the uh the the clothing business for uh Lily and for Pat's business in terms of home goods. So yeah. But what we'd like to do is we'd like to see someone that would have appreciation for the historic character of Lime Street. It's a beautiful property. I had no idea that you had stunning property and in the back with the the barns. Did Did Did the building there's multiple buildings, right? Mhm. Yes. [clears throat]

Yes. Yeah. Were were those added or were they there when you So the existing? We Yeah. So um Yeah, so there's actually the main building, then there's the sliding door shed building. Right. And then there's the barn building and then there's an outbuilding way at the end of the field. Uh and then there's a small shed building. That's great. They used to park school buses in there. Oh, really? That I didn't know. Town history. Yeah, well, I've been here since '65. Yeah. I'm still a newbie though. [laughter] Compared to so many others.

So we're we're new newbies. I just have one minor question. The the bright brass, is that is that

have to be. Well, I mean But that's on the front door. The front door is bright bright brass. It is bright. Yes, it is. You'll be consistent with the That's that's all I wanted. It won't look that new very long. Exactly. Right, right. Yeah, unfortunately they coat them instead of making them solid brass nowadays. I think but I think you can you can You can have you can [clears throat] have it more antique if Oh, yeah. What you got to do is take the lacquer off. Right. Okay, and then let it patina itself. A little patina. Yeah. All right. I I Well, one last question. Are the are the hedges that we see here are because we didn't talk about that. Are they part of the CFA? The the And do we do we have anything say or I think in the drawings there will be plantings on either side.

Yeah, I mean that probably seems like the most appropriate thing to do.

Okay. Yeah. I don't know if we had any comments or you know, Carolyn is always well versed in plantings which you have here. But the only thing that maybe I I didn't realize that this would be the form, but the other thing that we would like to do is I don't know if you remember, there's a beautiful shade tree that was in the center of that. Um oh, in center of the Yeah, yeah. Right. But what what Pat um uh idea was is that we would put three um trees along the the the fence on the southern side. One at the corners, each corner and one in the center that would be like a flowering tree in the springtime.

Right. We don't really get into plantings with one exception. We we talk about them when they're part of the screening like if somebody needs to put in an addition. So Yeah, we're not dictating what you can Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. in your yard. We're not hiding anything with the the So I don't think we have anything to say about that. I say about that. Can I make a motion? Absolutely.

Okay. Let me move that we approve the CFA application as submitted uh with the conditions that the doorway be centered on the access of the existing brick circle Mhm. that the outside uh wood frame be Douglas fir just to pin down a little bit what's in the description and that they It'll be painted, by the way. To matching the Yes, yeah. And and uh that a uh naturals natural stone step uh be approved not to exceed what would be appropriate, 6-ft by 4-ft. Yeah, cuz it I I would be 6-ft wide. 6-ft wide. And and it's just a step stone step stone. They'd need a landing there, really. So not to exceed

So a 12-in 1-ft by 6-ft. Well, what we do often is just give a footprint Okay. Like what's the footprint? If it ends up being 5 and 1/2 ft, if it ends up being a foot and a half size a limit. We're trying to keep you from Not to exceed 6-ft by 2-ft. Is that Let's say 6-ft by 3-ft because I I think you won't have a natural progression until we actually have it cut out. We want to make sure that step is a normal step. Okay. Let me cool. So not to exceed 6-ft. natural stone natural stone natural stone So good. Do we have a second? I'll second. All in Save my only other Oh, we have comments and just in case any of us have comments, that is if if you do want to do a lighting, we need an application for the the style of the lighting. supremacy of the

[clears throat] I think you should let the new owners decide. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, okay. They're trying to let them envision. We're showing the connection Or there might be a light pole, yeah, too, you know. Whatever Like a 6-ft tall Whatever just Cuz there's a courtyard there, so you could that could be lit up differently. It's all right. Yeah, alert them that they need to They're going to have to come back. I'm sure that they would be coming back in general cuz there's, you know, they they got to put their stamp on the building. Um I think we had a second. So uh any all in favor? Say I. I. I. All opposed? Pass. Thank you very much.

Thank you. You're done. Thanks very much. By the way, I cedar shingles instead asphalt. [laughter]

Okay, cedar shingles last forever. You can't have a tree on it. Yeah, yeah, right. I got 40-year-old roofs. Yeah, yeah, I would say. Yep. I think they all have them. Yeah, and I have to leave. But you need a progression with it. That's the worst thing. So do we need to does Curly need to be Yes, so Harding adds Uh what is that? 1004? And Curly is now um a member. Okay. All right. And we did uh sign and lighting discussions. The uh Are you here for the sign and lighting discussion? Come on up.

Come on up. Good morning. Good morning. I'm Mary Signer. I'm the director of Lime Street Service Bureau and you invited me to come today. So Okay. Thank you for coming. Is there anyone here from the church? Um they did confirm that they would be here. [clears throat] I sent them And are we on time? Let's see. Yes. Are we a little bit early? No, it's 9:55. 9:55, yeah, yeah, yeah. 10 minutes. Close. Relax. Yeah. Close to being They should be here by then. They should be coming by. Yeah, yeah, [laughter]

actually why don't why don't we why don't we proceed with the discussion? Well Shall I start? Yes, please. Um No, Mary, thank you for coming. We I think when you were here before was think it was you you said that occasionally not-for-profits got together We do. and [clears throat] discuss things. So we wondered whether you have had an occasion to discuss things if if it would be Well, the directors of the nonprofits in Old Lyme meet um uh about five or six times a year to discuss various things and definitely this issue has come up occasionally.

[clears throat]

Yeah, I mean here's here's some of the background. Our our statute gives us control over signs. If they're structure signs, if they're things planted in the ground we have to have a C of A. If they're non-structure signs, we still have control over, although we we can pass judgment as it were set the set the terms of that control. Um So for for banners, for signs that are set on top of the ground, they're not structures, we we we still have uh are mandated to exercise control. So

[clears throat]

the issue comes up particularly with with temporary signs. And there's no exemption for temporary signs. So when we developed our signage guidelines, we um said, well, this is sort of ridiculous to say somebody has to come in and talk to us every time they want to put in a temporary sign. So we included in the guidelines a system for, if you will, approval in advance just to make sure signals are straight with with um the the you know, location, size of of temporary signs. We've had some issues in the past with so-called temporary signs not really being temporary, with temporary signs having in one occasion you know, lights and large large structures. So in your discussions with with other nonprofits, it would be useful to remind people that they should should come in. The other the other concern is that some of the temporary signs can be can be really cheap uh looking. And so um the the church, for example, has a very attractive temporary sign that they use for musical musical masterworks. But the the wire signs, I think uh you run into problems even even with zoning So I'm wondering if it would be helpful. I mentioned when I was here last time on another matter and signage sort of came up a little bit. Um it would be helpful to have some kind of meeting or info session with the nonprofits and

businesses on Lime Street just to explain the rules because I do think there's a lot of confusion. And then there's some zoning that overlaps as well. And so I think we would be happy to sit down and have a conversation about and then you can hear from us about what our challenges are, you know? Because I'm sure that you want to support us and organizations and they have events and you need to know We have a lot of events, so I understand, you know, um where you're coming from as well. But we do do a lot of events and and sometimes they come up very last minute, you know? And so um I think it would be helpful to hear from from you about I know um just having this item on your agenda today kind of um peaked the interest of nonprofits. A few are here today just because they wanted to hear what you had to say. So we've got Well, I think that's some the signage guidelines do address this this issue. So there but the implementation is really in a sense organization by organization. What what the John So I think but if I could interrupt for 1 second, I think the the goal is to develop uh some ideas about signage that are our whole mission is that the signage in the district is in keeping with the historic character of the district. So our goal is to instead of having every sign that's being put up in the district and if it hasn't come to us or having to come to us um that we come up with some parameters that that work with the different organizations such that you're not always having to to

figure out what we might say or not say to say, okay, these kind of signs, this kind of design uh is in is in keeping and supportive of the historic character of the district. That's our mission. So if we could work together to figure out what that might be, I think that would be very helpful. And and we've we've kind of outlined that that signage definition in the in the sign guidelines. And maybe it'd be helpful to go through that. Yeah, and when I was was starting to say that we we address it it's it's for for temporary signs. It's not like we're dictating any one thing. As it this needs to be a product of of discussion. But I think in general, as I mentioned cheap little plastic signs there were there are alternatives to to that.

kind that have the wire legs that stick in the ground like a open house for real estate or something like that. Right. Um So I'm I'm wondering because there is a zoning side of of of this also, if if it might be a good idea to try to set a a day and time uh for representatives of nonprofits and Eric Knapp [clears throat]

and someone or two or as many want to come folks from from this this zoom. I think that would be helpful. I know the agenda item also included lighting which was um The the lighting issue was on there because some folks on this commission had a particular question for the church about their lighting. We we are still in the process of uh talking about guidelines for lighting similar to the guidelines we have about about signage. Well, but there's there's guidelines for lighting on signs. So, that's one category.

Lighting and sign lighting. That's right. Right. So, there's there's there's lighting on buildings and so forth.

Okay. But and and and then but the the the guidelines for signage actually include some verbage of and and the and the intent basically is that we're trying to focus if there is lighting that it's focused on the sign and not spilling you know, to the broader uh community. It's really serving its purpose. Um and and and and that same I mean, the town is even uh outside of our jurisdiction talking about lighting as a whole as part of the whole um town code rewrite. Um but the basic idea is kind of the dark sky principle where we're we're trying not to illuminate any more than what's needed to be illuminated. Do you all have any other input? Questions? I do. You actually were saying it as I sat down. Um so, I'm Katie from the library. As a nonprofit operating in the community having received the signage guidelines that were published, was it last year? Or updated last year?

Yeah, updated last year. Late 2024, I think. It it was difficult to discern what you have in mind for a temporary sign. First reading, second reading, and third reading. My sense was you wanted a permanent looking temporary sign, which is financially unviable for the nonprofit or speaking on behalf of nonprofit I run. Um financially untenable. And so, it felt more of an emotion than logic, but it felt like it was a a bit of a we don't want temporary signs without saying no temporary signs. And so, hearing that you're interested in coming up with some parameters that we can consistently rely on and operate with is wonderful. Really look forward to seeing what that is. Um but it's been it's just difficult. So, the sign you mentioned that you really like for Musical Masterworks they are able to invest in that because it's not a one-time thing. They use the same sign for a whole season. Um and so, they can put several hundred dollars into it because they're going to be using it weekly or twice weekly for, you know, a a quarter or a half of the year as opposed to a one-time event dropping 30% of the proceeds to purchase that nice looking temporary sign is you're effectively saying no temporary signs. So, just wanting to

Well, I'm wondering if it's if it's and and actually the the museum I'm thinking has the sign with the banner. This changeable. Like could there be a solution that is designed in a way that it changes with the event, but the presentation of it is consistent and more in keeping with the character of the district. It's That's to me, that's the kind of the goal.

Right. Set location. And and you may be right. We we may have been trying to struggle to figure out what what is a workable solution for everybody, but again, it's the overall intent or goal to to to have something in keeping with that. I think I think the and uh you know, you've relayed your impression that the goal of having this approval in advance is just so that we can have a discussion and you know we have one mandate to help preserve the historic the character of the district and you have a uh an important interest in in uh conveying information, um conveying ideas, conveying information about upcoming events, whatever it is. Um but we we I mean, I'm a believer that if we talk about these things, we can come to a Right.

a good accommodation. I think my feedback is just it seems like you have particular ideas in mind and it would be helpful rather than coming and kind of doing a ton of research, trying to come up with a bunch of different ideas and saying, "Well, what about this? What about this? What about this?" If instead you were to say, "Here are three samples of the types of things that we can preemptively say fall within the the outlines as as you've stated them. Um because again, I read the parameters and I see you systematically eliminating all of the standard temporary sign options. So, no wires, no A-frames, no flags. So, you know, you do a Google search for temporary sign and everything that pops up is what you've listed as not usable. So, what what is it? Um and again, I hear you saying you want to figure that out and that's awesome.

Well, we we we're so glad you're here to help us figure that. I think that's the point. Some kind of meeting in both sessions with all of us. We could even bring a sign, you know, and we can just talk about it because I do think there's challenges we're facing that you probably aren't aware of, you know, and so and it's enlightening to me to hear what your mission is. So, I think it would be helpful to have For example, when we review a CFA, you know, we're not designing. You just saw a couple of CFAs being presented. The design is brought to us and we're evaluating whether it's in keeping with the historic character of the district and that's that's our ultimate responsibility. And this case it's a little bit different in the in that we're trying to come up with a concept or a solution. Um we certainly probably could help bring some ideas to the table, but I think at the same time we'd love for you to bring ideas as well and work together to find that. I mean, there we just listening to the conversation I I I I take your your point that it would be helpful to have samples, but we've suggested some possibilities that that would work. The Musical Masterworks sign, whether that comes in a form that could be modified with a different front that's replaceable. Um you know, that's that's one option. Uh signs that are attached below existing signs. You use side banners. Uh you know, we've it's so there are ideas out there and it may be that that um you know, we talk about it and you say, "Well, none of those really work for us." But at least we've got the starting point of

of the of the discussion. And and John actually raises one good point in that one of the overall arching things we're trying to address is just the proliferation of signs. So, one of the things that's part of our evaluation of somebody presenting a permanent sign is its location, how it relates to other structures on the property. So, um you may be think of the idea that when you put a banner on an existing sign, we're not scattering things around a property or around the district, but there is a more clear definition of where things uh go and there's some benefit to that in terms of the character of the character of the district.

Consistent, visible outlet. So, it's not just the the sign design, but actual the the physical location and how it relates to the property. Would it be okay if we entered the conversation? Absolutely. Yeah. You don't even have to come up Yeah. [clears throat]

Forgive us actually. We we thought the meeting was upstairs in the old conference room. So, we were waiting for the door to open and to to be asked to to enter and then and then Martha Shoemaker exited and said, "What are you guys here for?" Well, we're here for the historic district commission. Yes. But please. And uh Katie, thanks for your thanks for your uh thoughts on signs as well. I mean, it's unconfirmed that the library is is uh considering this as well. Have you heard anything about it? Good. Anyway, forgive us for um No worries. walking in later than uh than advertised and requested. But but jump right in if you into the conversation if you like. Well, I uh only to say that, you know, we are we are um I I'm going to think Facebook the very same considerations and then questions and and I know you all have had uh questions for us about Right. uh the temporary signs. So, um I don't know what to say in response to that. I I it sound it sounds like the the the request or the the struggle is to figure out some kind of consistency that you can apply across uh across town with with Right. church or churches um maybe LSB or or the library as well. Yeah, and the this workable for the different organizations, but also is in keeping with our mandate, which is the historic characteristic of the district. And and is there are there design parameters, design ideas that we could come to consensus over that that and not I'm not saying that every sign has to be exactly the same. We don't nobody wants wants that, but um what are some principles, some guidelines? And and we've we we outlined some of our thoughts in the sign guidelines that you have uh received. So, and we're hearing some feedback on that. Um but uh if you have any

response to that or concerns, I would love to hear that now and and then there's been a a proposal to maybe almost have like a workshop with uh the different uh nonprofits and we have a a a more formal dialogue. Maybe this is the first. Yeah, no, I think that would be interesting and maybe helpful to have a uh wider a wider workshop, but we struggle with the exact same things that I heard Katie talking about. Um um one has to do with with uh cost. I mean, if we were to have uh if we were to put a uh uh sign up and we don't do it all that often, but you know, there are some moments in which we feel compelled to do so. So, yeah, there's a cost involved and knowing that it's temporary, um we yeah, we have some restrictions about that. what we can do cost-wise, but also speed. Um we are often compelled to respond to very particular events that we feel called to um to speak to and to um uh put our voice forth into the world. And we know that this is a temporary sign, but but the moment comes and the moment goes. So, the most recent one was Minneapolis. Um it it felt urgent for a little bit and then the moment passed and then it became time to take it down. Um Yeah, and we for our purposes um finding an accommodation would be great. We get all sorts of complaints. Nobody said I don't like the message. That might have been behind some of the complaints. This is what I suspect. But it but it's hard it's [clears throat] harder for us to it's easier for us to reply to say, yes, we we recognize the need for temporary signs. We've had conversations. We have this approval in advance mechanism. Yeah. This fits. You

know, if there's a solution that the goal is a solution that works for you and works for us. That that that alleviates uh I think both us and you, but also helps with other people in in town, so we can say you know, yeah. If we can figure that out. you want to do if you want to do temporary signs too and you know, your organization hasn't been part of this conversation, come come in and and talk with us. Yeah, listen, if we can figure that out, that would be great. I'm sorry.

We struggled with the whole temporary sign when we were going through making these guidelines. So, maybe if we could think of if you have an event coming in 2 weeks that you need to get notice out, is there something or maybe you have an event in 3 weeks that some kind of sign that we could approve that would suit their needs, wouldn't be really expensive, any big deal, but if you do have events that I know you want to get out there and if you have 2 weeks notice or 3 weeks notice, not a big billboard, but there must be some kind of common ground that we could do to accommodate because there is so many and you do have events that you want to advertise that last minute or 2 weeks or something. So, I just I think the idea of some kind of workshop would be welcome. And I just like scribbled down 16 entities online to that I think could be invited to join us, including the school, you know, including um several of us nonprofits and businesses. So, um It's not going to be easy because everybody's going to have a different need and then if we're going to incorporate cost and all of that, like it's a lot, but I think at least we can kind of get to some understanding so that every month there isn't a let's call them and look at this, but you know, we have something that we have to follow as well as you have something that you need to follow. Yeah. And and Old Lyme on our logo is artist. I mean, we have a creative group here and my hope is that involving some of the organizations that you're talking about that the solution speaks to what Old Lyme is all about. You know, in other words, so that I'm not a sign designer. You know, I I I can't sit here and say

this is this is exactly what would be fantastic, but I'm sure there are a lot of creative minds here in town that that could help come to that kind of uh solution that works for everybody, but also maybe inspires and that speaks to what Old Lyme, you know, is, which is an art uh art is a very important part of our our community. Um We we had and Ed Pin had to leave. He he had raised the the question, but while you're here, do you remember Ed's question about lighting at the the the church? Uh I think yeah, I think there was a question there's a I think

lighting at signs. There's a there's a tall light Yep. on a that doesn't [clears throat] seem to be a One of the one of the sign lighting uh guidelines in what we described about was to try to get the lighting local and focused to the sign itself and not go beyond the community. And I think Ed expressed some concerns about there's one particular light at the church, not the the the the steeple lighting, the sign lighting that that's maybe not Yeah, let me give you some background there.

Yeah, that I agree. Um as you probably all remember, we had to take down that big 30-in caliper red maple Yeah. at the corner of Lyme Street, Ferry Road. It was necessary because it came to the end of its life. As a matter of fact, one of its big three trunks came down on our property not long before the White Elephant sale. So, but anyway, we responded and [clears throat] we understood from Jason Wilcox that he'd he'd been hearing from the tree warden that tree should have probably come down earlier than it did because it had reached its end of its life. It was hollow inside, basically. So, anyway, the tree came down. What nobody saw

[clears throat]

was that that tree was hiding a 3-in diameter steel 20-ft high pole with three big floodlights on it. Right. And nobody saw it because the tree had eventually surrounded that big lighting pole and so it that was for lighting the facade of half the facade of the meeting house. So, when the tree came down, here was this totally unsightly, inappropriate 20-ft high steel pole. And so I had raised Alec take it down instantly because it just wasn't it was an eyesore. Um Then Russell Learned, who's the chairman of our property committee, and I went out shortly thereafter at night and we noticed a

[snorts] severe safety issue because the walks in the front of meeting house and on the side were now in complete darkness. And we have many functions going on at night. Choir rehearsals and meetings and so forth. So, we needed something right away to make sure that those walks were lit for safety purposes. The light was not designed to light up the First Congregational Church sign that is already existing. I see. It wasn't sign lighting. It was a safety lighting. [clears throat]

Now, there are other there have been other uh uh requests for us to consider the lighting uh on the facade of the church. One is energy usage and the other is disturbing bird migration patterns. And so we've had it on our list and this raised it a little bit on our list to do something more benign and um I can't think of the adjective but more more appropriate and gentle for the lighting of the facade of the meeting house and that that's a work in progress. We have no plans yet. We have a lighting designer looking at it uh who has done some work for Centerbrook Architects in the past and so our property chair Russell who is an architect at Centerbrook has been trading ideas but we have no plan yet. But we would like to eventually make the lighting of the facade much more indirect and benign rather than these huge up lighting. Yeah, yeah. So that's in progress. Anyway, that's the background for that pole. Right. To safety and we hope then that when we get to an eventual plan for the lighting of the facade that it'll alleviate that safety issue.

So we it's fair to say that that's a temporary lighting that's there now and that there would be a new proposed lighting of the grounds and the and the illumination of the Yes. Which is in progress and we're just not we're such an early early stage on that work that we're not ready to And that would be that would follow that would require a CBA. Yes. I mean any any structure that includes lights that are meant to be especially lights that are meant to be permanent Right. We understand that and we you know we would bring that to you. I think I think Ed would like to hear that but we can share that. Thank you. You're welcome. That's that's the background of that. We would not have put that pole up there. We tried to make it as small as possible. We wouldn't put that pole up there had it not been a night time night time safety. Yeah. And and is there a time a general time frame you're thinking on the lighting design and the the upgrade?

We're having to be gentle about that because the lighting designer is doing his work pro bono. So it's hard to push him. But in the couple of months I would say. So within yeah, within 6 months.

Yeah. Oh, but definitely within This summer we could yeah. Okay. We'll look forward to that. I mean we're happy to either to proceed with a formal CBA here's what we want to do or if you have ideas you want to toss around just stop in for a conversation before I think we would definitely do that. We would definitely show you either a preliminary plan or a suitable alternative before we before we'd make an application. Okay. Um I think other issues or questions that people had about the church really I mean you were on here specifically because of the the lighting the lighting issue but the other questions really fall under the rubric of signage that we've been talking about and how do we reach some accommodation and we can suggest feasible alternatives.

So when does the there's a group that gathers and when is that cuz maybe It it it would be easier for a few of us to go to It's something that's already happening in the by laws. We'll set a meeting and you all can come in. We posted our CPA. The date is We need one minute we'll let you know but Okay. It's in the next couple of weeks. That makes But also I think there are some people who you might want included in a workshop who might not be a non-profit director coming to our meeting such as the school the Cooley Gallery or you know Lily Work Tile or email the Yeah. The names to to Martha that would be a good idea.

give you the fire department like I can give you names of organizations that I think would be included that might be outside of this meeting that um we're looking at the date for but yeah. And and we don't want to occupy that entire meeting um but how long would We need about an hour. An hour So Mary what I'm thinking is the the one the meeting the directors meeting that we do is a regional one so we'll set a separate one and We set a special one cuz sometimes we have people from We want the church we want to include a couple of the other non-profits and then invite you want to come.

Yeah, that would be great. And then we'll be out of lighting about 45 minutes an hour. Sure. We can get back to you with the date. We can work on that together. Yeah, I already suggested a few a few days. Suggest a few options. Okay. Why don't we do that?

That would be great. I think that's great. That's exactly I think that's what we need. how we should proceed. Should we include zoning in that meeting? I think so. I think it it would be good to have Eric speak to the the zoning sign requirements. In fact I think he finding a date when there any number of us so odds are pretty good that somebody can can represent the HTC but having a date when Eric can be there I think would be extremely helpful. I mean this isn't urgent so we'll find a good date you know in a month or so maybe. Okay. I'm happy to help. Thank you. Okay. Thank you for raising your hand didn't Thank you for inviting me. Okay. [laughter] Appreciate the invite. Okay. Any other any other comments thoughts comments questions while you're while you're here? Thank you. Okay. Thank you for your time. Yeah. Forgive forgive us again for uh We were in the right building wrong room. Yeah, we thought we were early. Yes. I just Did you guys use Do you guys used to be That's that's what I remember when I Yeah. interacted with you a couple of times it was up there. They moved us to here. We we have a it's I saw that. I'm good. Yeah, it was great. Anyway uh apologies again and uh Yeah. Hey Mary. Thanks thanks again for the conversation. Okay. Thank you. Let's see. Secretary's report. Okay. We are uh tracking 18 situations in the in the historic district. Um Do you want me to list them or they're all included in the

Any that require kind of action? Uh The only the only one is the school Center School front door. Right. Um that uh CBA has now expired as of tomorrow so they need to come back in June. They said they were going to finish the project in June. Um so they need to come back and meet with you.

we requested that you do that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. correspond to them. Um Everything else is looking good. Nothing else has expired. You can take the railing at 36 off your list.

Yes. Yes. I will do that. Okay. That will be nice. Um Yeah. Just just what we've discussed at the meeting today as far as the people coming back in June and things like that. But that's already in the minutes. Um We also we sent out two communications. Um one um about the HB 5508. Um still Yeah. Uh we sent that to we sent our comments opposing those sections two and three to various state officials, legislators, things like that. Um and we also sent a statement to the Board of Selectmen about the Bow Bridge reconstruction. Just letting them know that we did not like that. Um and I sent a file to Elena Gelb Hair uh to put into the Excel spreadsheet. I sent her all the property files a list of all the property files that we have. Has she done that? Um no. She hasn't put it into hers. I I managed to convert some PDFs that I have into Excel. So I do have it in Excel now but it's not as nice as the one that she created. Has she How long is she going to be here? I think I don't know. I think it was April or I think it was May. Um

but we do have we do have a basic thing it's just not as Right. fancy as this.

she could touch base with her right away and say, "Can you get to this?" Yeah. I did just I did just send that to her. Oh, good. Like probably two two weeks ago. So, she's had Yeah, it should be pretty easy for her and I might be able to do it myself. Cuz I had the sample that she sent. Which is nice nicer than the one that I made. Um but it has all the same categories and I can um I can paste I I I was going to put it out that it would work. I can probably I'll try it copying and pasting in there. But I I do now at least have a functional Excel database with all of our with the records that we have. So, that's a good thing. Um the historic black program, I have not had a chance to do anything on that. And that's all I have. Okay. Um we're kind of out of time. Is there any new or ongoing business?

Well, what what I I would like to You got to keep 30 seconds or a minute

Right. and talk about which items could be added or should be added to this first special meeting. Yeah. I mean from my perspective, there's a bunch of stuff that it would be good to do it would be good to do soon. We've got a bunch of work done on website revisions. We hoped that that Alana could input them, but she can't given her time. Uh the sign guidelines, especially there's a provision on realtor signs, has been pending for over a year and it would be nice to finish it. Uh Should the realtors be part of this? It's a temporary sign or is that separate from the non-profit?

think it's separate. Okay. The details of their signs. Cuz they take stakes and put them in the ground. Yeah, okay. Um It you know, POCD is an emergency, no, but they're going to be starting on the next POCD. They've asked for input. We've never given them input from last POCD. Uh some of one of those items are are demolition guidelines. Um and we had a preliminary discussion of those. So, that's too much for one meeting. I mean, I I hate to say it's like a condo association, here's a one-time special assessment. [laughter]

What was the focus every year with a focus on lighting and and signage. It seems like and unless there's something that takes precedent over that that's where we should turn our attention to. Cuz it aligns with this the discussion that we just had. Yeah, it seems to come up. the this the zoning regulations revisions could become front burner. Because I haven't heard from uh Eric Knapp, but I believe lat late April was the date they were they a The phase two.

subcommittee of the zoning commission was going to decide on dates for workshops with various local boards to discuss things and we've done a lot of work already on on changes that didn't go into phase one because they weren't purely technical. Right. But there may be other issues that we want to to do. The The issue with a special meeting is we can't do anything that's not on the agenda. So, I would almost rather lean towards putting everything on and if we don't get to it. get to it. But just for my and Russ's purposes, if there are background documents to be developed, I'd like to have a sense of what we should get to first. Website revisions kind of depend on the other ones, right? So, I'm like lighting guidelines, I'm signage, all that kind of stuff. So, we can table that a little bit. We can hold that off to the side. I mean, we could start some things earlier, but I think Carolyn's been kind of leading to have everything, you know, so um depending on how it fits just in terms of planning. Like you you could prioritize the other things and then tackle it the website revisions all at once a little later. Yeah. If you wanted to. I think so. Makes sense. Yeah, it's also possible to get what we have up and then if there's a paragraph that needs to be added about demolition guidelines, you can plug that in. But We can move forward on But given so I would suggest for document prep um hold off on the website. Um include the signage guidelines. I can do that. Um

I'd like to I'd like to tackle lighting if we could. Particularly cuz the church lighting is going to come up. We just heard and it'd be good to have our head in that game so that that'll be a very important lighting element in town, right? Yeah. Okay. And it's probably the gentleman from Centerbrook that that is doing the uh dark sky presentations. He was cuz he mentioned he formerly of Centerbrook and a lighting designer. And so, it might be that that he's involved with the church and and might guide us.

[laughter]

If you yeah. Um Well, let me let me put those two as the first two sign guidelines, lighting guidelines. Uh let me list zoning regulation revisions just in case there's anything to touch base with. I'll just leave website revisions off. The demolition guidelines, it would be actually helpful to decide when we first talked about this I think I did up a list that had two or three different options. So, if we could just conceptually say, yes, this is yes, this is something we want to address or no we're too busy, we just can't. Um but if we say yes, do we go down track one or track two? I think it's important. Without looking in detail about the the the Well, there's there's just some properties on the market on Main Street that have potential for demolition. So, um it's probably Right, it would probably important to do something about Yeah. I mean, I can think of two or three right now. And maybe put up POCD. I know planning we didn't meet last month. So, Right. there wasn't any discussion on POCD last month. Or I don't think anyone before. So, you're on on planning? Are you on GBA? No, no. Okay. All right. So, I'll we can Do we work with Martha about the agenda? But but also the schedule. When when is that meeting? Oh. The 11th. The 11th. Oh, it's going to be it's going to be it's going to be after that. Now, can that be in here or is there a room in town hall that we can reserve? Martha, we'll find one.

one. Find one, okay. Yeah, yeah. Look at the schedule. Blankets and a picnic. Yeah, blankets and a picnic. [laughter] Yeah, bring your lunch. Yeah, it's going to rain that day, I'm sure. All right. Anything else? Motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. Second. All those in favor, say aye. Aye. All right.